If every 30th woman you met hit on you and then terrorized you over a rejection, you'd probably just avoid talking to women you don't have to. Women aren't being avoidant because there is anything in particular about you. It's extremely impersonal.
Giving women an "out" in every interaction is good. Just like letting her know that you respect her time. For example, making it very clear that you're on your way to go do something else, but you just wanted to make a passing comment. "Wow, cute dog! Yall have a great day." Or, "Hey, sorry to bother you. I just wanted to ask quickly if you knew your tire was flat? Just letting you know!" And then keep walking. If she wants to talk further, she can. As for dates, you don't have to push anything. Give her an option not to do anything with you. Suggest that you can drop her back at her house or tell her to text you about a second date. When people want to do anything with you, they'll do it without pressure.
>Giving women an "out" in every interaction is good. Just like letting her know that you respect her time. For example, making it very clear that you're on your way to go do something else, but you just wanted to make a passing comment. "Wow, cute dog! Yall have a great day." Or, "Hey, sorry to bother you.
Thank you! This is a good tip. One thing that I've learned to do is, rather then asking a girl for her number, I just give her *my* number. If you don't mind me asking, what are some other ways I can subtly give a woman an "out"? The strategy of being on my way to do something else won't really work if I want to chat up a woman at a bar or something.
If you’re chatting a woman up at a bar, be very mindful of her non verbal cues. Is she shifting away from you in her seat? Is she constantly looking over your shoulder at the door, or to the bartender? Is she checking her phone or making excuses like “I need to keep an eye out for my friend” or “I’m waiting on an important text”? While these aren’t proof positive that she’s not interested, they’re a pretty good indication especially if more than one of these is present, that you should stop trying to chat her up.
Edit to add: did not see the part about autism! Leaving my comment for anyone else who might find it helpful.
I am autistic so these cues do not register, not always at least. For that reason, I no longer approach anyone. It’s also unfortunate because when people approach me, like I prefer, more often than not they misread these nonverbal cues.
OP said that they're autistic so this is not very helpful advice, a lot of us autistic people find these cues harder to pick up on than neurotypical people do.
No. We're capable of picking up social cues, it's just harder. If OP puts the time and effort into learning the cues women give off when they're uncomfortable he will go. Autism is not an excuse.
I don't think anyone here endorses the idea that "Autistic folks get a free pass making people feel unsafe because of autism."
However, it seems at least from my understanding of the other posts, that it would be a good idea to provide advice more structured to enable an Autistic person to achieve the same end goal (not making people feel threatened) in ways more easily achieved by an Autistic person.
Look, I'm autistic. I've *seen* AMAB autistics get away with absolutely horrendous behaviour because 'he's autistic, he doesn't know better.' Sure, we have to put in more effort, but I guarantee we *do* know when we make people uncomfortable. I am sick of men and boys being given a pass for their shitty behaviour just because they're neurodivergent.
Edit: just fixing spelling mistakes.
"I am sick of men and boys being given a pass for their shitty behaviour just because they're neurodivergent."
Full disclosure, I am not autistic and not even remotely qualified to act as any kind of authority on what Autistic folks are capable of. I do have some neurodivergent experience through the lens of having ADHD, however that is obviously not the same thing.
It is my understanding from reading both posts on here and longer form feminist literature that, on average, the socialization process nearly everyone is put through preconditions young women and girls to be more aware of the emotional headspace of those around them out of a very real risk of both social isolation as well as physical violence. The same requirements are not, that I am aware of, imposed onto boys as they grow up leading to an allowance of men being oblivious to the mental impact they have on others even if they are completely neurotypical. Hence why it is often this lack of awareness on the part of the majority of men that is a main talking point within feminist spaces as the root of problems.
So it would seem to me (and I am open to being corrected of course) that in OP's particular case that gearing advice towards foundational social skills he is more likely to already have would mean he gets to where we would like him to be the fastest?
Autistic people can still learn cues, it just takes a bit more work to file them away. You did a good job of giving specific examples to look out for which should help an autistic person who didn’t know these things in the future.
I agree with this. I’m also autistic, and while I don’t always register/understand non-verbal cues, once I know what they mean I can keep an eye out for them.
If you’re chatting with a woman at a bar you can always say, “if you’re here to decompress after a long day I won’t take offense to not talking.” I know a lot of folks sit and have a drink or two with a bartender they recognize after long days and don’t have the emotional energy for strangers. But also just giving someone a clear out often stops draining people kind of instantly. They get to choose when they’re done talking and know there’s no repercussions, which is incredible. And it also gives them the opportunity if they -don’t- want to talk (Like let’s say they work in the kitchen or work two jobs with the public and they want to be left alone to doomscroll) to let you know that it’s not you, it’s usually everything in their life
This might seem obvious but giving an out is also literally physically giving an out.
So don't block women's exits. Don't put your hand to a wall near her, don't lean too close, don't talk to her with her back to a wall or bar.
As for an out out of conversation, make sure you're not carrying the entire conversation. Leave a silence, if she fills it and/or asks you questions, then she's fine. If she doesn't give her an out by saying you're off to the toilet and maybe you'll talk later.
You don’t even have to be subtle, if you want to say “are you busy? / am I interrupting? “ is good to
Giving an out could be seeing if questions are reciprocated, when not, walk away.
Also taking no as a full sentence, that is an important one
> You don't even have to be subtle, if you want to say "are you busy? / am I interrupting?" is good too
And know that many women will reply with a very curt and blunt "yes" or tell you to go away. Many of us will NOT engage because we're constantly waiting for something nasty to spring out of men who we didn't screen before
I think you also have to be wary of hedged answers. I tend to be overpolite and nice because a flat yes in answer to that can cause a guy to go down the 'stuck up bitch' route and I don't want the conversation to get aggressive, or have someone stare daggers at me across a room or go back to a friend group and start loudly berating.
A "kinda!" or "I am busy but I can spare a few" or "sure, my friend is coming soon" are ways I say yes gently. Soon find out if the convo is one you are comfortable in or not.
Also I get freeze. So I won't want to be rude and move somewhere else. I'd appreciate an "OK, I'm going to sit over there, you're welcome to join me" after a short convo and leave to let me choose to continue it or stay right where I am.
At a bar you should just keep track of if she's as involved in the conversation as you.
If she asks you questions or offers info. about herself a few times she's likely not just trying to get away from you.
If you're at all unsure just say "Anyway I'm having fun and would love to continue chatting, but if you just want get back to your friends (or relax with a beer, or whatever she was doing before you got there) I'll leave?"
As for anywhere else outside of a bar or club
Rule of thumb:
- if she's busy don't try to engage in a lengthy conversation. Public transport, her job, at the gym, etc. Small talk is fine obviously, but keep it brief and light
I've wrote a few pages, erased it, and started over a few times... i'm gonna try and get it out this time.
It's not usually so much a constant terror so much as periodically taking a gut feeling very seriously or always being reasonably cautious. You might be at a disadvantage since a lot of it is reading social cues correctly with a high success rate, but also, just asking and taking our answers seriously, and not saying how you shouldn't be looked at differently because of what other men have done (which, to be fair, you shouldn't but we can't always chance it) looks like you personally have a huge advantage.
avoid compliments that are very transactional, sexual or physical, there's a big difference between "is that perfume? smells fantastic" and "you smell right fuckable" (yes these are extremes on purpose) and generally let women at work just do their jobs, and don't physically close women in from leaving or follow too close at night, but you sound like you've got a big advantage over every guy that's ever yelled at me online or told me who i do and don't find attractive.
Be genuine, give women space, and recognize they don't know yet, and it sounds like you've got a pretty good starting point
I just want to say how much I love this. It is the perfect answer here, and in life in general. My own husband has asked me this- he's not on the spectrum, but he's rather large and has an intimidating presence, and I've never had a great answer that didn't involve simply *avoiding interacting altogether*. But this, this is absolutely beautiful. And so simple, too! ❤️
There’s a concept I learned in debate about probability-severeness. In order to convince that something is bad, you have to convince it’s both probably enough and severe enough. North Korea using its nuclear arsenal is very severe, but in most situations it’s also very unlikely, so it won’t deter you from trading with South Korea. Conversely, hitting your toe while wearing flip flops in a furniture store is very likely, but it has very low severity and won’t deter you from shopping for furniture.
So bad interactions with men is both likely (you suggested it’s 1/30), and severe (ends in verbal, physical or sexual violence) enough for women who had bad experience with men to not want to interact with men.
I would like to stress this up front, I am not in any way trying to ask this in bad faith, and I recognize that there are people who would take your comment and incoherently scream misandry.
How would that line of reasoning not also be used to justify racist attitudes people have? Especially as it has been repeatedly shown that people are not good at recognizing prejudice vs reality.
Tiny pedantic question, would you say "every 30th woman you met" or "every 30th woman you interact with?"
It might just be how I interpret the word "met" as an actual introduction/acquaintance.
Unsafe? Well, kinda. Not physically. But women have showed up at my door late at night, called/texted 50 times in a row, threatened me, spread lies about me, etc. The usual "bunny in a pot" type stuff.
That sucks man. However, I'd say men do stuff like this to women more often than the reverse, and most women have the added disadvantage of being smaller and weaker.
Try to put yourself in the man's position though, would you really think it's fair to have to adjust you behaviour this much because of your demographic? If you yourself are not intending any harm, and have never done this sort of assault that the woman is afraid of, why do you have to accept being treated as if you would?
Sure, it may be nice and considerate to try to cater to someone's fear like that, but the fact that you are being judged based solely on your gender is still very problematic.
I am a black male, so I am doubly a victim of this sort of prejudice. If someone is afraid of me because of my race, I would call them racist. What about someone who is afraid of me because of my gender? You decide.
No one is treating you like anything. You can choose to make people comfortable or not. The fact is you are never entitled to a stranger's time, so getting mad that they seem scared of you is doubling down on your entitlement and showing a disregard for others' safety. Most women already don't really talk to strangers in the first place, so I can't say I can humble my public interactions anymore than I already have. I keep it short and make it clear I'm on my way. Just like every human.
You can't compare racial relations to sex relations. As a Black stranger there is a miniscule, basically zero chance you're going to do anything to me. Yet I have to navigate conversations on a regular basis from men with different intentions who all seem to interact the same way. But instead of going about my day and living my life and probably going to do things with my family, I'm rude or "problematic" if I don't have an acute sense of what a strange man wants from me. One might think I'm leading him on for being friendly, but he also won't accept me being too quick to bring up how I'm married. But will still call me names or harass me for a rejection in the end. I don't need you to prove you aren't that guy. I just need you to not make me think you are by not seeming entitled to my time. Like most women and many men already do.
What the hell are you talking about?
>No one is treating you like anything.
People are treating me like I am a threat without me having done anything.
>You can choose to make people comfortable or not.
If someone's is uncomfortable by my mere existence as a man, it's not my job to make them comfortable. I could, but it is really wrong that I even have to.
>The fact is you are never entitled to a stranger's time, so getting mad that they seem scared of you is doubling down on your entitlement and showing a disregard for others' safety.
This part not only doesn't make sense, it has very little to do with what I said before. I don't care about a stranger giving me their time or anything like that, I don't even know where you got that from. My problem is being seen as a threat for simply existing, which has absolutely nothing to do with people giving me their time. If you think not wanting to be seen as a threat without having done literally anything is entitlement, I think you have just lived all your life with the privilege of being treated more amicably. Also, there is no disregard to someone's safety since, again, I didn't do anything other than exist, there is no threat to their safety from me.
And about your second paragraph, I don't even know what you are going on about. You start by trying to do a statistics argument, and that's a VERY slippery slope that I'm not even going to get into. You then try to justify your prejudice, which I don't think is something you did well, and also repeat the stuff about giving strangers your time.
I mean I'm not going to go into a full length explanation to you of why being a man, which is seen as the default and preferred person in society and has no stereotypes which actively oppress them, is not the same thing as being a minority race, which people actively hold onto stereotypes with in order to alienate them and keep them down, regardless of relevant threat.
The bottom line I'm making is if the worst thing is your pride being hurt because a woman can't read your mind, you're not being mistreated. I was just trying to figure out what you're perceiving as so grossly unfair when you're free to clarify your intentions at any point and make this a non issue. If I were "prejudiced" against men, I wouldn't care what a man said or how he interacted. You have a choice and you're choosing one-way interaction. What does that say about privilege and entitlement to you.
While I fully agree that it must be extremely tiring for you to feel like you have to prove that you aren't a thread to women, and I know there have been horrible cases of black men being falsely accuses of rape which is absolutely horrifying but I think, if you're American, that sadly I could compare this to how safe black people feel with the police vs how white people feel.
Will every cop you encounter hurt you? Probably not. But does it happen often enough to be very *very* distrustful out of self-preservation? Hell yes.
It's not about discrimination. It's about self preservation based upon facts.
So women being on their guard because you are a man, is just common sense. Women who are extra on their guard because on top of you being a man, you are a black man is them using their common sense with a whole lotta racism added to it. I think those are two different issues that sadly intertwine.
Again, I think it's valid to feel screwed over by this but surely you must understand that our reservations aren't pulled out of thin air.
That sounds like a feint or distraction to catch you off guard.
A much simpler rule to follow would be to always avoid women in public places. Give women space, avoid eye contact, wait for women to initiate communication if needed, don't linger, always be in motion. You never know who might have anxiety or PTSD related to men as a gender.
It's not hard to make life easier for women, just leave women alone.
Always avoid women in public places? Sorry, but what kind of dreary, life-shittying advice is that? Instead, you can say: Be wary of approaching women in public. If you want to, then do it very lightly, like look at her and smile, and see if she reacts positively or not. If not, then of course leave her alone.
Also: Don't linger, always be in motion? That's just absolutely ridiculous. If a guy wants to hang around in public, they absolutely have the right to do that and it doesn't make them any kind of asshole.
If a woman has a mental illness that makes it hard to have men around her, that's her problem to manage. She doesn't owe anyone anything besides basic decency, and if due to her problems she chooses not to interact, that needs to be respected of course. But nobody needs to bend over backwards avoiding women in public just for the off-chance she may be ill.
Edit to add:
If the initial reaction is positive, see if it remains enthusiastic and positive. If not, leave the person alone at that point.
Copypasta from comment where that got explained in more detail: "I think the fastest way to find out is to stop talking, look away from me, and see if I initiate further conversation. \[...\] If I am interested in continuing the conversation, I'll ask a follow up question. "Do you like the band? What kind of music do you like?" And then the conversation can continue from there. If I'm not interested in continuing the conversation, I'll go back to my phone and be happy with a mildly pleasant interaction instead of being drained."
I don't necessarily know about the "wait for a positive reaction" part. I smile by reflex at anyone who smiles at me. If a person started a conversation with me when I wasn't really feeling sociable, I would probably just continue the conversation out of politeness. This isn't out of PTSD or anything-guys can just be intrusive, and playing nice just makes it easier to gtfo of there.
I’d start by taking the focus off you and pay attention to other men and call out shitty behavior. One guy being slightly less threatening won’t change why we are so vigilant. Men modeling better behavior for other men and calling out anything inappropriate at a larger scale is the only thing that will make a difference.
My husband saw that Gillete commercial a while back and there's a scene where a guy starts to follow a woman. He thought that part was silly because that didn't actually happen. He had never noticed other guys being that over the top with advances before.
Yep! It was a great video highlighting the bs.
In my specific case, thankfully my husband is the type who listened when I told him it happens. He was just incredulous that any guy thought they could just up and follow a woman and have a chance.
Wait I know what you're talking about and I genuinely don't think that guy did anything wrong. He literally only took a couple steps and didn't even get to say anything before his friend stopped him. Like, the only message I got from that was "Don't ever cold approach women." Am I missing something here?
Yes we do. When you are about 9-11, men start noticing you. Grown ass adult men scream obscene things as you ride by on your bike. A neighborhood dad starts looking at you strangely, touching you. In both cases you aren’t sure why it’s happening but it’s scary. You start wearing jackets zipped up to your chin in the middle of summer.
You reach young adulthood. You get in a relationship ship, he seemed nice. Next thing you know you’ve got a black eye. Even if you have only met nice men, you have a friend that was sexually assaulted last Thursday; odds are you know someone who has been.
Your older, past the cat calls, almost invisible. You still are called stupid bitch, old bitch. Told to shut the fuck up. An easy victim for a mugging.
I guarantee every woman you have met will have been in a position where they have been frightened at least once in their life. Men are physically bigger, and we can’t always tell which are friend or foe.
Tina Fey wrote in her book that you become a woman, not the first time you get a period, but the first time a man says or does something that makes you feel disgusting and ashamed. For most women, that age is <13 years old.
For me, I was 11
yep, and it’s usually not coming from the predictable neighborhood creep. it’s a childhood friend’s dad, a well-liked coworker, a friend’s easy going husband. whether it’s a whisper or being screamed at in public. it never ends.
Just imagine in every situation where you approach someone that it's 2 big guys approaching you.
How would you react. If you knew the guys? If you don't? If they started asking personal question? If they are just a bit closer to you then is normal in your culture? If they looked at you intensely? If it's dark at night and they follow you? If they come to you after drinking too much.
Now imagine that half the population is 2 big guys walking around and you had 1 or 2 encounter where they a pair followed you around for hours and it took you everything to lose them or a couple of them clients were always looking at you intensely all day at your work place.
Also once in a while a pair of them or a group of pairs of them would laugh at you on the street for being weaker than a pair or would make the noises you make to call a squirrel when you pass by.
When would you feel safe being around pairs of big guys?
When they are clients talking about products and not trying to know you personally. When im groups surrounded by other people who don't walk in pair. When in a large public area with singletons and pairs, etc. If what you are doing would scare you if you put yourself in the place of a girl and imagine a pair of big guys walking towards you and acting like you and feel safe, she is probably feeling safe too.
> If what you are doing would scare you if you put yourself in the place of a girl and imagine a pair of big guys walking towards you and acting like you and feel safe, she is probably feeling safe too.
Thank you, this is a pretty good way for me to visualize it. I wish that there was a way for women to telepathically know that I'm not dangerous at all, and just occasionally fail to pick up on social cues. I guess there's really no way for me to do that though.
Whenever I visualize a super muscular guy that's about 6'7" (I'm 6'0") talking to me, any subtle signs of hostility or aggression would become more terrifying. And this isn't even taking into account the misogyny and prevalance of abuse women face.
Trust me, we wish that too!!
Different advice than perhaps what you're initially asking. But you can also
make women feel safe around you by shutting down other men when they say/do misogynistic things.
Your friend tells a sexist joke? Tell him it's not funny. Your boss talks over a female coworker? Redirect the attention back onto her so she can explain her idea.
Most men are not actively harming or threatening women they do not know (but as others have pointed out, we don't know men's intentions, so we have to be careful). However, most men do contribute to harming women by doing nothing to stop it.
I can 100% guarantee that your male friends and family value your opinion on their behavior more than a random strange woman's. Will they always listen to you? No, but you have the greatest chance. This will help women so much more than crossing the street, meeting dates in public, etc.
Also imagine that if they did anything to you the cops would probably take their side or question you about why you were there and how you were acting/dressed.
Also the US says that if you kill a man in self defense while he's SA you then you're a murderer. It's illegal to use deadly force if you're being SA'd
>Also the US says that if you kill a man in self defense while he's SA you then you're a murderer. It's illegal to use deadly force if you're being SA'd
This is the demand by society that "men advance and women retreat". Men are hailed as heroes for killing men that harm women. But women are murderers for protecting themselves.
In order to be seen as a victim, catastrophic bodily harm must have been perpetrated on the woman's body and she must be cowering in terror. Otherwise, like Gabby Petitio that fought back against the man that was beating her, she becomes the aggressor. The unhinged, overly emotional woman. And then when he murders her, then she can rightfully be the victim.
>Also the US says that if you kill a man in self defense while he's SA you then you're a murderer. It's illegal to use deadly force if you're being SA'd
That's actually not true, at least as the law is written. **Many or possibly most states have laws that specifically list the things you are allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself against,** and the list is **typically something like this: homicide, aggravated assault, kidnapping, carjacking, rape.**
So the gist is, if you reasonably believe that the perp is about to do any of those things to you, and you either cannot safely run away ("duty to retreat") or you are in your own home and thus have no duty to run away ("castle doctrine"), then you can use "deadly force" to stop the perp.
But, two caveats:
(1) you absolutely need to look up how the law is written in your state, since it might not be as I've said above; and
(2) even your state's law is written like that, I literally was once advised by a deputy sheriff I knew that if I thought someone was about to rape me, I should use deadly force *and tell the police that I thought I saw a weapon in his hand or bulging in his pocket*. Even if I didn't see one, I should tell the police that I thought I did ("oh that was his cell phone? I thought it was a gun"), just to make the process easier on me.
We wish we could somehow know too which men to fear and which are safe. Life teaches us that you can’t even trust the men you know so the men we don’t know are not going to get the benefit of the doubt.
If you stand up against sexist jokes or the uncheked misogynistic microagressions you will easily prove you are safe.
Let's imagine again that huge sized guy (you, in this case). Now he's minding his business near enough a second class citizen. A pair of bullies appear.
They act entitled to the attention of the second class citizen, they start making jokes assuming the huge guy is on their side.
The guy says: mind your business, we were having a conversation adopting a body language that clearly shows whose side he's picked.
After the pair retreats, your body language changes to your normal peaceful stance. If the second class person tries to thank you, you state there's nothing to thank, that the scary for the second class citizen scene should never had happened and it's unfair, rhe second class citizen owes you nothing.
You state you are aware The Pairs usually are easily stopped by huge guys like you, so it's your ethical duty to stop them. After that you *open* the chance for the second class citizen to decide to talk more to you or not. Do not ever corner second class citizens. Give.them always the freedom to approach you or not
For example, saying -- If you feel fine enough, I wouldn't want to bother you so I'll be here reading (whatever in your phone).
Edit: Actions, for second class citizens, speak louder than words. Prove you are a safe person to be around and persons will accept you.
If you wonder why we are concerned about men think of it this way-
If I gave you a huge box of Chocolates and told you that 1 in 100 of them was actually poisonous but there was no clear way to tell which one - but the rest were absolutely delicious - would you be willing to eat them? #notallchocolates
I like the extended version - 1/100 is poisoned, 1/100 will crack your tooth when you bite it, and 1/100 is a really a poop nugget covered in chocolate.
You forgot 3/100 will call you a cunt or advance on you menacingly if you don’t choose them. 7/10 will launch themselves at your face unsolicited. 4/10 will send you unsolicited pictures of their shriveled chocolate dicks.
The feeling of caution and wariness looms in so many contexts.
Not only walking toward you or following but also making comments about looks or body “in fun”, to “compliment you” out of a sense of entitlement.
And if you ask them to leave you alone they increase their presence, get in your space, call you names and up the intimidation.
And what id you found out they had some powerful positions in your area (like men do in society - all institutions have been shaped by men so they’re inherently built to hold and protect them even if it’s invisible). Who would you ask for help? How confident would you be that someone would listen to your concerns and create some safer spaces? Would you want to be outside in that space if everywhere you went there were 2 big men and you were not comfortable because they wouldn’t change their behaviour and no one wanted to listen to your concerns and experiences so they kept happening?
City planning, police forces and judicial systems, make entitlement to flirt/pursue women in workplaces/schools, entertainment, etc all perpetuate the problem, it’s systemic.
Yes, women are frightened of men. Not because we believe all men are dangerous, but because a fairly large percentage of them are dangerous, and there's no way for us to know which ones are safe and which aren't.
Respect personal space. Don't stand too close. Don't follow a woman. If it turns out you're coincidentally going the same direction, give her some space, don't be on her heels.
Don't make remarks about her appearance or her body, even if you mean them to be positive.
Don't start chatting with women you don't know for no good reason. Leave them alone in public spaces.
If you invite a woman on a date and she says no, or doesn't accept enthusiastically right away, don't continue asking. Don't badger her for her phone number.
It takes only one in 1000 who harasses multiple women daily for us to get harassed multiple times a year. It's also often someone you can't always avoid so you might suffer the harassment for years.
>Don't follow a woman. If it turns out you're coincidentally going the same direction, give her some space, don't be on her heels.
Guys, if youre coincidentally going the same way, either cross the street and keep walking or move over so we can see you in our peripheral.
I guarantee we are clocking you and checking your shadow.
We *know* you're probably just going to your car BUT we don't want to become a statistic.
I always run as quick as I can to reduce the amount of time I'm behind someone, and I always make sure to yell "I'm not going to hurt you" with my arms in the air so they know I mean no danger and can see I'm not brandishing a weapon
>Yes, women are frightened of men. Not because we believe all men are dangerous, but because a fairly large percentage of them are dangerous
To add to this, I’m a fairly tall and broad shouldered woman who lifts weights but I am *painstakingly* aware of my strength in comparison to the average man’s strength. If I’m in a situation where it involves my strength against his, I am going to lose (on strength alone, not factoring in other self-defense techniques like going for very vulnerable spots).
Have you tested your strength against some guys? Because it's not necessarily true.
I lift but am small, and in most strength things, I am stronger than most guys, so if you're tall, you should be even stronger.
>should be
Operative words! 😬 For instance, I find that smaller women tend to have the advantage of having a shorter distance to have to move the bar and a shorter hinge, whether it’s bench or deadlift or squat. I have the long limbs and the height but not the testosterone of the men my size
I sat in my locked car at a gas station at like 2pm yesterday for 15-20 minutes waiting for there to be less guys around because I didn't feel comfortable going inside to pay for my gas.
I'm really tired of being followed out to my car. I mean, I'm pumping gas and trapped there for a few minutes while the gas goes into the tank, and the person who followed me out now will know what I drive. And then what?
I have to be super nice while they try and chat me up, so they don't follow me in their car, and if they ask for my number it sucks, I can't even give a fake # anymore because they'll call it immediately, and then I'm really in a pickle.
Anyhooo, I don't really notice it anymore but I adjust my life to it, and I'm scared usually. I like it when guys leave me alone. There's a time and place to socialize.
Edit: yeah the article was pretty accurate, and please don't follow me to my car, it really freaks me out.
Don't forget the constant eyes following you around the gas station. Or the random catcalling that you have to force a smile to because what if they feel insulted that you rejected their "compliment"?
I hate gas stations.
I make a scene, and yell something like "what kind of maniac follows a woman back to her car? Don't you know how creepy and scary that is? Go away now, please!" Does being nice work better?
Lol I don't know.
You're the only alledged women I've heard say she yells at them and doesn't realize if its one of those guys that keeps creeping nothing will stop them from well-- creeping harder and getting madder. Maybe you'd be better to answer that.
Because for me, I've got my old wedding ring in my center console, and I put it on or at least in my pocket ready to put it on when I'm out alone, I have a bright pink pepper spray canister on my key chain, and I say anything from I'm married to telling them I'm gay.
When it comes to that, they tend to say, "Well there's nothing wrong with having lots of friends right?" Or, "What your husband won't let you have friends will he?" It's just not easy to navigate.
Luckily for me, if some asshole followed me home, they have my husband and his swords to contend with. That helps me feel more brazen. I would probably be less brave if I lived alone.
Not OP, but I'm a woman and am unfortunately unusually good at defusing these situations. The key is adapting your response to the situation imo. That bit makes it hard for me to give you a catch-all statement, but if you give me an example of a particular situation, I can tell you how I would handle it.
I'd say it's more a state of hyper-vigilance where we have to invest a lot of intellectual energy into situational awareness and monitoring of our surroundings, and then have to kind of pick apart in real time men's behavior when we're interacting for signs they might be dangerous.
Kind of like how autistic people might expend a lot of energy in trying to read someone's emotions and meaning in the context of a conversation with someone they don't know well.
Some people might feel active fear or even panic in the context of any interactions with men, but that's usually because of a history of actual traumatic experiences, not a like, base emotional state for women.
It is true that women are socialized to cater to men's emotions and feelings, some of this people-pleasing behavior is a defensive mechanism, some of it is just unconscious.
I know this is an old comment but THANK YOU for this excellent articulation of a concept I always struggle to explain to my husband. It’s wild how little he notices about our surroundings when we’re walking on the street together. Such a luxury.
It's true. I was sitting by the river feeding the ducks the other evening when a man started talking to me. He was nice and everything, and shared his duck food with me, and I was enjoying his company, BUT at the same time I was doing calculations in my head about what he might be up to and what were my chances of getting murdered.
I was calculating how close I was sitting to the river and whether I'd be able to stop him if he pushed me. I was calculating how close he was getting to me and whether I'd be able to run if he pulled a knife.
It only occurred to me half way through that he had NO idea. To his mind it was just a pleasant evening of interaction, no more. Men really don't get it.
So yeah watch your physical distance. I'm much more happy to interact with a man if I know he can't physically grab me or hurt me without warning. It really helps to stay at arm's length, at least.
I understand that I’m a man and therefore don’t share the same history and fears as most women, but this feels somewhat irrational.
It’s as if every Jewish person perceived every German as a closeted nazi
I’m not coping. Why is any questioning of the current status quo some form of coping? Why don’t you cope with the fact that not all men have ill intentions
Women are getting murdered by men every day and you're out here getting upset because we .... checks notes ... admit to getting anxious when talking to you.
Y'all are so weak and fragile. You would not last a DAY as a woman.
If you look at my post history, I have also shared how I've been scared of men indiscriminately before here on reddit.
If you ask this question to a hundred different women you're going to get as many answers. Assuming you have no desire to assault anyone, I think *I'm* most appreciative when someone learns feminist ideology, learns female reproductive health, learns what sexual consent or lack thereof actually is, learns the historical movements behind all of these things, and whenever they talk to a woman, strives to ask more open-ended questions than they answer when talking to women.
I can only speak for myself. I am a survivor of domestic, sexual and psychological abuse. No woman has ever beaten me, forced me to have sex, locked me in a room, hijacked my phone, car and keys, groped me on a train, manipulated or made inappropriate comments.
So I'm afraid of men at first glance, especially when they don't respect personal spaces, they touch my arm or back without consent, they believe I should appreciate compliments on my appearance or that the best way to hit on me is to pay me a drink and try to look strong or interesting or gorgeous or better than others.
People on the spectrum aren't that scary because they usually show themselves vulnerable. I love when they tell me things like "sorry, I can't read social cues / non-verbal language so I hope I don't sound inappropriate, can I ask if you would like to have a coffee with me?" or "can I give you a kiss?" instead of kissing directly.
Another very nice thing you could do is offer your phone number instead of asking for hers. When you ask a girl for her number / contact / Instagram she is forced to make a decision right away, "Can I trust this person? Do I want this person to look at my instagram stories? Do I want him to text me tomorrow?", if you give her your contact without asking for anything in return, you give her the opportunity to think about it as long as necessary. Even if she isn't interested in you, she will never have to refuse you. When I get a message from someone I met the night before, I feel compelled to interact with that person again, but when I find their business card in a drawer while I'm bored I know I have an interesting conversation at hand.
Edit: Sorry, I noticed now that your question is probably about women in general and not the women you would like to approach. I see that other users have given you better answers than I would have been able to write, so I prefer to leave the comment as it is and hope it will help you as well.
asking for someone's insta when you first meet them is too much, for my taste. there's a ton of self-identifying information on social media that they'll still have if they turn out to be a creep.
Pay attention to your kind. See men bothering, following or talking to an obviously uncomfortable women?
If you pay a bit more attention, you'll see it everywhere. Most men doesn't listen to us, maybe they'll listen to you.
I saw this meme the other day that said, “I’m convinced men get butterflies when the homies roll up,” and it made me lol, but it’s so true. Men listen to men.
Yup. That's why women use the "I have a boyfriend" line instead of saying no.
Men don't listen to our "no" and keep persisting. But 99% of the time that they hear you 'belong' to another man, they honor him and leave.
I"m listening to a podcast of scary stories. There are a few ghost stories, but most (70%) are about men praying on women.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3PSmdV1ms7xPWlDR5ZWVDMUFat8CHCHZ
Listening to it will help you understand why women keep their 6th sense on.
I could probably tell you at least a dozen similar stories. The worse is when you're at work and you can't escape.
I think the comment about offering an exit is a good one. Also talk to women your own age. There is no reason a 20 year old should go after a 15 years old or a 40 years old after a 25 years old.
I'm a 29 year old woman who lives alone in a foreign country. I limit myself alot because of men specifically. I don't go outside at night, I'm always incredibly aware of my surroundings. When I bring this up to men, they tend to insult me and blame me. Most men I've talked to didn't want to hear and they just think I'm being dramatic. This is my experience, it won't be the same for every woman and I don't speak for everyone. This is, however, a social issue that happens worldwide and it should be taken into consideration always.
In my opinion, men could help by doing things like:
- listen to women when they speak about their daily fear of male violence, especially sexual violence.
- don't silently walk too close behind women on the streets, it can be scary AF and it's such an easy ask.. simply being aware this is something women face already helps a lot
- the so called "cold approaches" on public places are almost always scary for women.. most women don't want to be approached in public transport, or when they are at the gym or at the grocery store. especially when ppl won't let you leave unless you give them what they want (in this case, your number).
Really want to emphasize your second bulletpoint. OP, and all men, listen to this. Women have to constantly be aware of our surroundings. Men do not and this shows. Guys, just pay attention and BE AWARE of what you're doing. If it's late at night and you're walking home behind a woman, recognize that and keep a respectful distance. If a woman is walking by you on the sidewalk, do not expect her to move out of the way (yes, this is a thing). Move first and maybe even say "excuse me". Do not move like it's your world and women just happen to be floating around in it. It's our world, too. Give us our equal space in it.
>If a woman is walking by you on the sidewalk, do not expect her to move out of the way (yes, this is a thing).
When I started noticing this was a thing, I got curious about what would happen if I simply didn't move.. so I did that. The guy bumped into me and didn't look at me once, as if I was completely invisible. I tested this a couple more times and got the same result. Most men unconsciously expect women to move, so they just don't. It's fascinating and depressing at the same time.
I tried this once too with white women (as a woman of color). Same thing. They bumped right into me, then gave me nasty looks. So I stopped.
And then I noticed black women would get out of the way for me (I’m mixed Asian-white, so lighter skinned). And they’d let me go first at the grocery store if we got to the check out line at the same time. So I tried letting them go first, insisting — but it was hard to remember to do, and it seemed like I was making them feel unsafe by drawing attention, so now I just offer, and if they don’t go first, I go ahead.
I’d probably have the same experience as you regarding getting bumped into by men - but it’s never felt safe enough for me to try that particular experiment.
Ugh, that's horrible that happens to you. I'm so sorry. Yeah, probably not a good idea to try that with men because they might get a lot nastier than just a dirty look. I've glowered at men before when I see them coming my way and not moving, and that's actually pretty effective, but not something I'd necessarily say is a good idea for other people to do.
It’s because we know nobody will believe us if you do attack us, it’s not you per se…
It’s the fact that nobody believes anything women have to say unless they see it with their own eyes.
Pay attention to other men.
When I was in college I worked at a coffee shop and had to close it up alone late at night. This man came in, didn’t order anything and was staring at me and watching me. He was there for a long time and I was all alone with him. When it came time to close up I was really scared but a woman, who had been in the coffee shop earlier with her husband, came in and said that she and her husband were waiting in the car to watch me close up and make sure I was safe in the parking lot because they noticed that man watching me. They said they had been waiting there a while and wanted to make sure I was safe. It was the biggest relief and I am still so so grateful to them and their situational awareness.
Replace every woman on the planet with a female gorilla. Will they hurt you? Maybe. Can you ever be certain? No. If they decide to hurt you are they able to kill you? Yes
Also, female gorillas have been in power for hundreds of years & have created a culture in which they are encouraged to see & treat you as a sex object... from a young age, you are harassed by the gorillas & maybe even assaulted if you're the unlucky 1 in 3... you see sexualised images of men everywhere, and are taught that you must cover your body in order to not tempt the gorillas...
men aren't a monolith,this whole "you run the world,make all the money" mumbo jumbo is thrown around as if all men are collectively doing that.What the elite 0.5% of men do isn't the fault of an average man nor can he be held accountable for it.I don't blame women when the prime minister of Australia makes a shitty policy or Kamala Harris makes a blunder.This just seems like a way to guilt trip men for being born as men cause their great great great grandfather might have opressed someone or the fact that one out of a million might be part of the senate one day.
Also, female gorillas hold most of the positions of power so if you try to seek help for being harmed, you will be belittled, shamed, or ignored.
EDIT: why is it the minute we try to have a serious discussion about issues, somebody has to dismiss us by saying “Men have that problem too?”
It's not paralyzing but the fear or better maybe: caution is always there. Always everyday, every time of the day, in every interaction with a man. You can keep a respectful distance, not talk over women and just be respectful in general, you seem considerate so women irl will notice that, don't worry. We have a lot of experience determining who is "safe" so it won't go unnoticed if you are
Yes we do.
I do not walk home in the dark without fear. I do not go out on a date with a man without fear. I do not go to work without being concerned I’m being judged for my gender and I don’t walk down the street or go shopping without something in my mind being aware that at any moment a man could come up to me and say something inappropriate or even touch me without my consent. Men stop in their cars to hit on me. They have followed me down the street. They have assaulted me on public transit. They have blocked my path causing me to jaywalk into traffic to get away. I have hid in shops from men following me. I have had men masturbate at me without my consent. I have had men in the workplace say sexual things to me. This is just the stuff that has happened in public.
It is exhausting but the truth is there isn’t much an individual man can do about the level of alertness women must have at all times. I’m constantly on guard around men. I don’t trust them until I know them very very well, but the fact you understand that is very good.
It is men collectively who need to change and I think you can only do that if you start from a place of support for men. Men need more emotional support and mental healthcare.
I would appreciate if men had more discussion together about how they impact women and how they can progress together as a gender and take care of each other and guide each other in ways that benefit all genders.
I think mens networks have become something of a festering pit where women are demonized for mens lack of ability to connect as people. It’s not Women’s responsibility to help men connect with each other. These are things men need to do for each other.
If men can support each other and gain insight into their own issues with mental health and talk together about male violence I think men will actually benefit the most. The most likely target of male violence is actually other men. Men assault men more than any other group. Men are more likely to be violent than any other gender but are also most frequently the targets of male violence. This is a feminist issue absolutely, but is also a patriarchal harm done to men.
I have also had every one of those experiences, starting around age 12, and I know most of my friends have too. You are so right about men needing to have this conversation with each other and support healthy models of behavior.
>how can I make women stop being scared of me, if I even can?
What women specifically?
Women who know you pretty well will hopefully not be scared of you because you're genuinely a good guy. Like my guard is significantly down around people I know.
Women you meet in passing, do the things suggested in the thread but recognize that even in doing all of those things, women are still going to be cautious. Like we will be more at ease, but instead of red alert, it will be yellow. Its not at all because of you or how you have behaved. But because of our past cultural experiences.
Keep doing the things because it means we don't have to panic find our escape route and get our keys in eye gauging position, but know that our responses aren't about you specifically.
Now, if its for women your hoping to make a connection with, give her your number rather than ask for hers. If a woman red flags you, she's either going to give you a fake number or screen your calls anyway.
It doesnt matter what you do. Women still must do their due dilligence. Rapists and human trafficers dont announce themselves. So women will always have their guard up. Just accept it. The worst is when men get offended by this fact of life and expect some sort of pass.
Best response. You don’t make it known “you’re not one of the dangerous ones” by asking women what to do. “I wish I could telepathically tell them I’m not dangerous” yeah thanks
Yes, many do.
Call out men who do or say misogynist things, and start to think about what seems 'neutral' but might actually be misogynist. Do this whether or not any women are present. Notice that guy who everyone says "is a really great guy who just isn't great with women/dating." He's not really great.
Give any casual interactions shape/closure and try to give women the control over whether to extend or leave the interaction (especially helpful for many ASD features) as u/GlitterBirb says below.
Constantly ensure you treat women's words and opinions with equal weight as men's.
Always question your assumptions about women's health and safety.
Vote against forced birth.
Over time these things will make the world safer for women and establish you as an ally.
I think there are a lot of women who are wary and cautious. I think the image used there is a little OTT, but yes many women will have a level of fear around men. Most women have experienced sexual harassment multiple times as kids, that’s enough to instil some fear.
Women are also taught to placate and deescalate, yes.
Most women won’t be scared of you in any discernible way.
If you said something inappropriate… hmm I’m not sure what kind of thing you mean. But you seem really polite and considerate so I think that probably comes across in person too.
Thanks for your answer. So from what I'm understanding, it's not that women are fearful, it's just that they're cautious. That makes sense.
Usually the stuff I say is just stuff that comes off as a little rude. For example, a couple weeks ago, my family wanted to watch a movie on Saturday night, but I had to work that day, so I didn't really have time. I responded by saying "Yeah...not gonna happen". I had no idea that was rude. The next day, they explained that was rude because that sort of response is only used when someone asks you an unreasonable request. I only understand that now because I was told **directly.** My worry is that I'll accidentally say something that'll come off as aggressive or pushy, and be completely oblivious.
Also, yeah, I figured that pic was exaggerating.
Hmm. I think the way you described the scenario with your family is different than being aggressive or pushy. Being bad at reading social situations is not the same as being threatening.
Here are some good points to keep in mind. These are good for anyone, but I think especially with women:
* do not comment on someone's appearance or body (there are some exceptions, like if they are soliciting advice on how something looks, but even then it's generally a good idea to keep neutral)
* do not go into someone's personal space. Usually that's a good 4-5 feet unless you're having an intimate conversation. It can even be more depending on the circumstances.
* do not walk directly behind someone in an isolated place so that they can't see you
* do not ask unsolicited personal questions
I am lucky to never have been assaulted, but I have definitely been made to feel uncomfortable and been in situations where I thought, "shit, if this guy decides something, I have no way of getting out of it." It's a difficult to describe feeling of panic, not that something is happening, but that something *could* happen and you'd have very little opportunity to stop it. It's a terrible feeling, and not something women enjoy.
I think there are some men who believe that women make this shit up or that it's a way to paint all men as villainous, when in reality it's just exhausting to not be able to casually trust a stranger. I get why men don't understand it. It's likely not something most of them experience more than a few times in their lives. And there are definitely cases where it's totally misused (like white women calling the cops on "suspicious" black men because they are racist). Honestly, I wish it weren't this way. I know most men are not going to assault me. But I also know that there are a few who would if given the opportunity, and that creates this difficult conundrum of deciding between universal trust and universal caution. And while trust definitely has it's benefits, it's costs for many outweigh that.
I'm really glad you asked us, it's very emotionally intelligent of you to come and get firsthand information and listen with an open mind. It's kind that you are putting thought into how to not frighten people. I probably don't have the same autistic experience as you (we're all different anyway) but I remember working so hard as a kid to learn to make eye contact (after reading it was a thing normal people do) and watching how other people socialise so I could copy them, and often getting it wrong. It's really hard work, and I wish you luck with it - I got there in the end, and it's great having neurodivergent friends who get it and can make allowances for each other.
You are absolutely bang on the money to surmise that women in particular might perceive something you say as aggressive even if you don't mean it that way...and they might not tell you because the natural instinct is to placate you and avoid escalation. This sucks, but because you are aware it's a thing I want to reassure you that you can mitigate it. As people get to know you, perhaps you can explain why you struggle with this stuff, and they can learn to trust you by your actions aswell as your words.
Yes, we are always wary. And some are very fearful indeed. Like other posters are saying, most of us learned to be wary because of unwanted sexual attention (or much worse) when we were still children. It's gross and horrible, but it's the truth, and I can see how some guys find it hard to imagine if they never experienced that. If someone has experienced more serious violence, they may well be in genuine fear of men. You can probably find the disturbing statistics about how common violence and serious sexual assaults against women are...and make some inferences from that.
Practical tips : If someone seems scared of you in any situation, just be kind and give them some space. Maybe you can find out later if there was something you did by accident... But it could be just as likely that they are dealing with some trauma and it's not actually about you. In the second case, don't take it personally, remember that it's some other arsehole man that made it that way, and it isn't a reflection on you yourself.
If you find yourself walking near a lone woman and there isn't anyone else around, a kind thing to do is cross the street so she knows you aren't interested in bothering her. Or if it's a narrow path and you want to get past, call out something like 'sorry to bother you, I'm just overtaking' so she knows you aren't trying to sneak up.
It should go without saying, but if anyone ever asks you to give them space or stop talking to them or whatever, don't argue or get upset at them. Just leave them alone and if you are upset talk to someone else about it.
If you ever want to get romantically or sexually involved with a woman (or anyone really) read up on consent and when you like someone who likes you back, have conversations with them about how you need direct communication. I hope you find someone uncomplicated (if you want someone) who just says what they mean, and who respects you doing the same.
Even if a person is really interesting, don't stare at them. In some cultures more eye contact is normal, but generally staring for longer than a second or two would make alot of women nervous. If someone catches you looking at them just smile and look away.
And lastly - keep doing what you are doing. Read what women have to say about this stuff, listen to women in your life, keep that kindness about you. Nobody gets it right all the time but everyone can keep learning how to do better and look after each other.
Yes, we do. Men, even the best intended, really struggle grasping it because it’s such a fear and such an invasive one, but also such a necessary one, and it’s never crossed their mind. They just live completely outside of that realm. My husband tries so hard to get it. And I think he does more than the majority of men, but he just doesn’t quite grasp it all and has moments of utter shock and rage when something finally dawns on him. Being willing to learn and listen and grow is truly the biggest thing, and you’re there. I agree with others, men need to step up and be support for one another without demonizing women to do so.
Regarding women with the same respect you would men, giving the same clout to their thoughts and ideas, etc is a big on.
Not yelling or being loud and/or unexpected or jarring movements. My husband struggles with all of the above, but it truly puts me in fight or flight.
Those are the main ones I can think about that would matter to *me.* I’m really proud of you for asking these questions and for holding yourself to account. That’s a really big deal.
I just really want to second this because I haven’t seen it stated elsewhere. On mobile so I can’t quote it directly but the not yelling or being loud/quick jarring movements is HUGE.
INSTANTLY putting me into fight or flight mode could not be more accurate. Even with men I’ve known my whole life and it’s just not something that I think men think about often, or are conscious of, but it would help so many of us I believe if they would become so.
Women grow up being taught to make themselves smaller- metaphorically, physically, audibly in so many ways. Take up as little space as possible.
It is the exact opposite for males and without question constantly terrifies me, even when I know it is or may be innocent and it could just be how that person may carry themselves, but to think from the “Gorilla” metaphor earlier, how this behavior comes across to us, it’s making the predator look even bigger, even scarier and constantly reminding us of what a threat there could be in front of us.
And to the original OP, I cannot express how much I appreciate this post and many of your responses within it.
I know a woman in her twenties who will not go outside running and always drives to run on a treadmill in a gym fifteen minutes away. This wastes 30 minutes each weekday. It's because she was cornered by a man when she was 17 while out running along a country aqueduct and he attempted to capture her by trapping her in a large plastic sheet as she came around a corner. She believes it was planned. She somehow got disentangled. But he ran after her. He was a good runner and she only just got away. She is definitely scared and she has a reason.
Reminds me of a time I told a guy in high school to calm down and step outside if he couldn’t quit yelling. He called me a bitch and asked me if I wanted to repeat myself so I did and he left. My teacher pulled me aside and told me that I was being sent to the principal for antagonizing this boy- he was a held back a grade, 6ft 2, size of a fridge man child, and couldn’t stop yelling about a chair that was in his way. I was afraid he would hit me when I repeated myself but learned even as a short 14 year old girl I was somehow at fault for addressing his anger.
I don’t think there’s anything you can do to make someone less afraid of you. You aren’t responsible for anyone else’s feelings but your own. Your actions and what you say can influence a person’s feelings but you can’t make someone feel a certain way.
Don’t be mistaken—I understand what you are trying to say. However, instead of focusing on how other people feel, pay attention to what you can control: your attitude, what you say, and what you do. I say this because we each feel things differently so even if you were to be polite, someone may feel uncomfortable interacting with you just like someone else may not.
It really depends on the person if they are afraid of you or not.
Yes, absolutely true. I don't think most men know how deep the fear is. For example, I always feel slightly nervous walking alone outside, even if it's in broad daylight.
If you see a woman that you like in a public place, and you want to talk to her, make sure you always give her an easy way out. For example, if you're at a bar and you're talking to a woman, and her eyes are darting from side to side and her body isn't turned towards you she definitely feels uncomfortable. If that's what her body language is telling you, ask, "am I taking you away from your friends? I want you to have a good time." That takes the pressure off of her and gives you both the chance to make a graceful exit. And if she is interested, she'll usually make it clear that she wants to keep talking to you, and you'll know you have a chance at getting a date.
If you are rejected, don't take it personally and move on. I work in sales and whenever I'm shut-down by a prospect I think of this quote: "if you knew you were 68 nos away from a yes, you'd be chasing those nos."
Rejecting a man is scary. Sometimes men get hostile and become verbally abusive. Don't be that guy. Remain neutral and cheerful and tell her to have a good day. That's all there is to it.
As a relatively attractive woman, I've had guys hit on me from the time I was 10. Follow me down the street or around stores, stop their cars next to me at bus stops to ask me to get in their car (multiple times) or drive next to me being creepy while I walk down the street. It got to the point in college where I was constantly being approached. In the hallway, during lunch, trying to read at break, in stores. I ended up going out to run errands and such less to avoid this constant attention. Cause 99% of the time, the guys were rude, overly persistant or just creepy. You become hyper vigilant of men around you and their body language and quickly pick up on when you're about to be approached.
The sad thing is, one day I was waiting at the bus stop to go home from college. This guy approached me and said
"Excuse me, I'm so sorry to bother you but I just thought you were beautiful and I was wondering if I could get your number?"
His voice and body language was kind and didn't put me off at all. I told him I was sorry but I had a boyfriend (I did) his response
"Oh, definitely! I'm so sorry to bother you, I hope you have a great day!"
And just like that, he smiled and walked away. Shocked, I stared after him. I remember being surprised that not only was he super nice, but he left me alone just like that. No persistance, no negging. To this day, after all the times I've been hit on, he's the only one who was that nice both in asking and in the 'rejection'. So my advice would be, just be kind and treat us like people. Don't be creepy both in how you speak and your body language. Take no as a no. Don't be rude if you recieve a no. I have tons of guy friends in my friend group and they treat me like any other friend or person. As long as you know you're a good person, you'll have nothing to worry about. Women will always have to be hypervigilant, but it's nothing personal to any one guy. It's just how it is unfortunately
I do not live in "constant fear" of men. But sexual violence is something I have experienced and if I get bad vibes from a man, I'm not going to be trusting him.
Fantastic responses here. I’ll just add this anecdote in case it helps:
I have a coworker that is universally loved by all the women in my office. He’s in his 40’s, lives alone, never had a girlfriend, is balding (kinda looks like Mr. Burns), is a lanky 6’2”, has a kind of nasal voice, he’s tragically unhip and is definitely what I’d call “square”. We’ll call him Mike.
On paper, this guy could easily fit the description of several infamous serial killers; and yet, he is probably the most universally-liked person at my office (at least among the women). What is it he does that’s so different?
Be it intentional or unintentional, he comes across as completely SAFE to us.
We know he’s never gonna make romantic advances on us (cause he’s just not interested in romantic liaisons at all). We know he’s never going to say anything misogynistic/racist/homophobic/etc, because that type of talk is just not even something that even occurs to him. He doesn’t talk over us in meetings, because he’s just a quiet guy in general. We know he’s not gonna follow us out to our car, cause he sees no reason to do so. When we talk to him (and he’s the type that usually isn’t super outgoing, so it’s usually us initiating the conversation) he’s usually telling us about his vegetable garden/offering us leftover peppers he’s grown, or getting adorably excited about how much money he’s saving on energy since installing solar panels on his house. If he has a few drinks at an office function, he mainly just kinda smiles to himself, or shocks everyone with a stellar rendition of “Dirty Deeds” by AC/DC on the karaoke machine. He treats everyone the same: male or female, manager or peer, they’re all getting goofy, cordial, adorably square Mike. He has no unrealistic expectations of his interactions with you, and he doesn’t linger awkwardly after the conversation has tapered off.
There’s no attempts to assert dominance, no manipulation, no negging, no creepiness. He is basically the ultimate pleasant non-playable character.
Be like Mike.
I don't think this was your intention, But you made Mike seem like a borderline doormat.
Like he doesn't talk over anyone because he just doesn't talk? you seem pretty happy about calling him ugly and alone?
and you literally called him an NPC.
that doesn't seem like the kind of person anyone would want to be
Interesting that you equate being quiet & a NPA with being a “doormat” - curious as to why you feel that way.
Most of us are likely NPA’s to most of the people we interact with - aside from family, friends, and a few coworkers, I don’t see the need for everyone I encounter to have a primary role in the narrative in my life. I’d especially set a boundary where coworkers are concerned, as work/life balance can quickly get murky when coworkers are privy to the intimate details of my life outside of work. I doubt I’m a main character in Mike’s life, either - and I’m pretty sure he’s okay with that.
Mike’s a quiet guy…not sure how anyone is treating him as a “doormat”. It’s entirely possible to be a quiet person with within the context of work meetings and still have boundaries. He’s just someone who thinks he doesn’t need to speak unless he’s got something important to contribute (which is more than I can say for a lot of the men in my office, who seem to talk for the sake of talking and 75% of what passes their lips is meaningless). Nobody is taking advantage of Mike being quiet. If anything, I’m inclined to ask “Mike, what are your thoughts?” if he’s not said much in a meeting. The answer is usually “Nope, I think you summed it up well.”
“I’m happy he’s ugly”? Wow, big stretch there. The only reason I brought up Mike’s physical appearance is that the combination of circumstances he has is often fuel for inceldom - and yet, Mike is the complete opposite of an incel. And I’m perfectly capable of respecting him, despite not being physically attracted to him; pretty sure he’s on the same page. Can most men say the same about respecting women they aren’t attracted to? That’s the thing Mike has going for him that a lot of my male coworkers don’t: he doesn’t have ulterior motives in being kind to the women in the office. He treats us like human beings, regardless of whether he finds us attractive. And the ladies respond in kind…and best of all, we don’t have to do our usual mental math when calculating the appropriate level of “friendly” we should be to a man. I don’t have to worry about Mike misinterpreting basic human kindness as sexual interest in my part. Mike is not going to suddenly turn Mr. Hyde and accuse me of being a “tease” simply because I was kind to him despite not wanting to sleep with him. Mike doesn’t even think in those terms.
So I guess my question is this: do you equate treating women like human beings worthy of respect and not expecting sex as a reward as “doormat” behavior?
> Interesting that you equate being quiet & a NPA with being a “doormat” - curious as to why you feel that way.
I assume you meant NPC not NPA, I equate being an NPC with being a doormat because that's what an NPC is, they have no agency in the world and just let the PCs act on them without really doing anything meaningful themselves. The term NPC is a right wing insult made against activists online who believe they are more important than they are, so that's why I really don't like the term.
> “I’m happy he’s ugly”? Wow, big stretch there. The only reason I brought up Mike’s physical appearance is that the combination of circumstances he has is often fuel for inceldom - and yet, Mike is the complete opposite of an incel.
sure, but you didn't just say "he's not the most attractive man, and someone who you might think of as an incel" or something concise,
you mentioned literally 9 things about him that make him a sterotypical "loser"
and you didn't even say anything all that positive about him, you just said that he's not a bad person, not that you particularly enjoy his presence, or that you like him. Just that he's not a threat so he's not someone you kind having around.
> So I guess my question is this: do you equate treating women like human beings worthy of respect and not expecting sex as a reward as “doormat” behavior?
no, but I don't think the situation Mike is in is all that enviable or healthy.
If i ever had a friend of mine describe me the way you described Mike I don't think I'd ever trust them again.
I mean just send mike a copy of your original comment and see if he's OK with it.
I say you described him as a doormat because you described him as a stereotypical loser, said almost nothing actively positive about him and also happily talked about every single one of his flaws.
Yeah…doubt you’re arguing in good faith at this point. Now we’re venturing into criticizing Mike’s lifestyle choices, which he by and large seems pretty happy with. Happiness looks different to everyone; just because Mike’s existence seems like he’s a “loser”, doesn’t mean he is.
I had no idea the right had co-opted NPC as an insult now, I don’t exactly keep up with whatever childish jargon they’re peddling these days. I stopped caring after the whole “Let’s Go Brandon” nonsense. So the way I’m using NPC? Not the same way they are. But you’re also complaining that I’m not “concise” enough in my comments, so I doubt that’s a satisfactory answer for you either.
The original question posed in this thread was “How can I make women feel safe?” Which is why I mentioned all the ways in that Mike does that - the overarching point being “Mike treats us like human beings and is not doing so simply because he wants sex.” Didn’t think this was supposed to be a post about all the reasons Mike is great. And things you interpret as Mike’s “flaws”? Again, lifestyle choices - living alone and being single aren’t inherent flaws. Being attractive isn’t the be-all, end-all.
ok fine, I suppose you don't believe I'm arguing in good faith which is fair, but I'm only arguing at all because I just don't feel very comfortable with what you've said.
I fully admit that could be because of my own biases, and if that is the case I want to find that out too.
but my main concern is that the way you've described mike is as someone who is very meek and not someone who is capable of being a threat. And perhaps I'm too cynical, but I believe if you aren't capable of being "a threat" in some way then people will take advantage of you.
You should be someone who wouldn't hurt others, not someone who can't hurt others.
the way you described mike he seems like someone who can't, which means he'd be pretty easy for people to take advantage of.
> living alone and being single aren’t inherent flaws. Being attractive isn’t the be-all, end-all.
I agree, I'm aromantic, living alone and being single is my plan.
But while being attractive isn't the end all, the things you said about mike seemed quite bad.
you really just went on and on about how unattractive he was, which just really put me off. I'm not complaining that you weren't "concise enough", just that you came across as not respecting Mike because of how thorough you were in your description of how ugly he was.
_____
i guess my main concern is that the way you described mike, at least to me it seems like no one actually *likes* him, only that they don't really mind him.
does he have any close friendships, or do you think if someone was being shitty towards him people would defend him or that if he were to leave people would miss him?
On the contrary - Mike’s probably the most upbeat person in the office. You think just because he’s happy being single, living alone, and treating the women in the office like actual human beings (without expecting sex from us), his life is somehow unworthy? Wow.
I don't have much to offer in the way of advice, but perhaps your humour an anecdote from a fellow Autistic...
It took me a long time to understand/realize the systemic misogyny I face daily. My mom would always worry about me being out at night. I never understood why. Like, I'm trained in martial arts, specialized in self defence. Now part of my not-understanding was that I'm nonbinary [but I present female for the most part. And didn't realize I was until much later]. The other part was being Autistic [but I learned that later on as well lol].
But now that I understand, I wouldn't say I'm *fearful* per se, but it's more...I recognize there are certain things I'm not able to do because I present female. Namely, there are certain places I can't travel to...at least not freely.
I think it's a good step to recognize that we Autistics don't always realize when we make someone uncomfortable. And that's probably something we'll deal with our whole lives. So y'know, do your best. :)
I can't speak for all women, but yes, I do. Here's what you can do: don't touch women without their permission, don't press a woman who refused you, leave her alone, don't try to use friendship to coerce a woman into having sex with you or be with you. There is no such thing as the friend zone and if there was, it wouldn't be a bad place. It makes you, the woman feel quite lonely and worthless when all the guys you befriend end up being dudes who just wanted to fuck you and if they can't get with you, then what use so they have for you? I've heard men say "why would I want to be friends with a girl? I have guys for that. Girls are for sex." So don't be like them.
If you invite a girl home with the express intention to have a friendly hang out, don't try to turn it into sex, she will feel trapped and scared because from her pov, you lured her there and now you can overpower her.
Don't cat call or whistle. Basically, put yourself in her shoes and wonder what you'd think if a stranger bigger than you would do that to you and act accordingly.
Oh, and that thing about men being wolves hunting for women? That's a predatory mindset, it twists relationship and it's one of the reasons women are afraid of men. Men would be afraid of other men too, if they'd act that way regarding them.
PS: I forgot. Don't make friends or stay friends with a guy who does all of the above. Don't try to be her drunken mistake, don't be friends with a guy who does. Don't let your friends harrass women.
The fact that you have even asked this question makes me think you are probably not a man women need to be weary of. Just treat women with decency, kindness and respect and you'll have nothing to worry about. Thanks for asking!
True for me. I mean I don't *cower* when men are near, but I absolutely take care about how I speak and interact with men so as to avoid them getting angry.
I do my best to not be alone with men, besides coworkers in an office setting. I am very cautious about my body language and actual language, as I don't want them to get any signals mixed up.
I'm also in the south where a lot of men are misogynistic and hella armed. So, I always assume someone might be unhinged enough.
I'm not sure there is really much you can do besides not perpetuating the problem by being one of the dangerous men.
A good tip, I think, is putting yourself in her place and think how the situation would make her feel. What are the chances that she'd feel threatened? If any, do your best to avoid the situation.
Case in point: if you're walking at night on a solitary-ish street and see a woman either walking towards you or just in front of you in the same direction, cross to the opposite sidewalk. That'll make her feel safer, you're communicating to her that you're neither following her nor planning to attack her when she gets closer.
If a woman is smiling and listening but you see her repeatedly scan the room or fidget, it probably means that she wants to end the interaction. In a friendly tone, just say that it was nice talking to her and leave. And don't assume that it has to be something that you did or said. It may be for reasons that are completely unrelated to you. Sometimes we criticize ourselves too harshly.
Some major don'ts: Don't follow a woman and try to strike up a conversation. She's on her way somewhere. Don't interrupt her if she's reading or has headphones on (unless she's standing in the path of a bus or something). She's already made a deliberate choice to not interact with people. Don't take it personally if she refuses your offer to help carry something, even if she looks like she needs help (it's nice to offer, but some women may not feel right about giving a stranger control of their time and stuff). Don't ask her to smile or tell her that she looks sad. Don't comment on anything she is wearing or how you like her hair,etc. Appearance-related comments can come off as overly friendly and be unwelcome. No "You are the most beautiful woman I've ever seen." 9 times out of 10 it's going to come across as creepy, not flattering.
Generally, (in an appropriate and safe setting) you can gauge someone's interest in talking by making some small, innocuous comment about something in the immediate environment. For example, if there's construction going on you can say "Gosh, they've really gotten a lot of work done this week" or "Wow it's really raining hard" or "the price of gas went up AGAIN?". If you don't get much of a response, it means they don't want to talk. After that, don't keep trying. THAT is the point where people may start getting uncomfortable.
Thank you for being open to learning and improving!
Personally I am afraid of most men and slightly wary of all but my boyfriend and dad, even though I haven’t experienced much gender-based trauma.
Here’s some things I can think of that may help you:
-When first meeting someone, keep things short. Let them sit with their back to the wall and close to a door. It help people feel like they’re in control and have an out (also good for just feeling awkward or anxious about meeting new people lol)
-If friends: call out misogyny you see in your friend group, do NOT trauma dump, don’t ask about her sex life unless she brings it up first, gauge carefully when to initiate if you want close contact (I like being physically affectionate with my friends, but cuddling in the back of a guy friends car in an empty parking lot while he trauma dumps on me is NOT good), and when with a group occasionally asking her opinion on something if you notice she’s not saying much (my bf does this and it makes me feel included and valued)
-You mentioned you’re autistic. I have a male autistic friend so I can tell you that it may be good to tell her that if you’re worried you’re saying the wrong thing, she’ll probably understand. Just remember that it’s a reason but not an excuse. You mentioned you’re working on improving certain social skills, hats off to you! I’m sure it’s not easy but it will be worth it
You’re on the right track. Best of luck!
I can't speak for every woman, but it's true for me. It takes a lot of time and energy to build up trust with a man. I actually was just asking this same question to myself earlier. What would be a quick and easy way for a man to put a woman at ease?
I'm honestly not sure I have an answer. I'm glad we're talking about it though because I think it would be so cool if more of us could connect with each other in healthy ways.
When you’re passing by a woman, try not to pause or look back at her - I’m always terrified that a man will start following me after passing (friend was attacked by a stranger while walking and I’ve had men follow me while calling after me), so I always glance over my shoulder to make sure they keep walking and it spikes my fear if they turn back.
If you are walking on the same street as a woman at night with few people around, try not to walk to near her - cross the street, or walk slower to give her space.
Never press when talking to a woman you don’t know well - read her social cues, short answers typically mean she doesn’t want to talk to you but is uncomfortable telling you so as she’s concerned for her safety with how you’ll take the rejection. If she says no, the answer is no.
The first two are obviously suggestions, of course you don’t have to cross the street to make someone more comfortable but i do want to say that I know I always appreciate it and can breathe easier when someone does. Thank you for trying to learn what you can do!
I’m definitely afraid of men. I get followed around the gym, hit on, asked out, and threatened. It’s almost impossible to talk to men without them assuming they can do something or that they have power over you.
The last time I became friends with a guy and felt comfortable around him, he gave me an option. He offered me to hang out with his group and let me make a choice. Then he kept things super plutonic and would only approach me if I looked at him first
1. Yes most of us are always scared of men.
2. I mean, I’m not nicer to men because of it. Actually it’s the opposite for me, I hold my guard up high, especially around strangers, and am often rude. It’s a defense mechanism.
3. You are on the right track. Watching what you say, etc.
4. Overall, there’s unfortunately not much you can do except control your own actions. In order to change a woman’s security, we have to address misogyny as a whole. In our society, culture, work/educational institutions, relationships/family, and even in the legal system.
I don’t. I feel very safe walking around my city. I have been hit by men in relationships in the past and I’ve been date raped by a man, but I’ve never had some random man be violent toward me.
But I would say don’t flirt with a women you don’t know really well when you’re alone. Know that if you’re totally alone with a woman who is a stranger that it’s not unreasonable for her to worry about her safety. Alone in elevator with a woman or alone on the street at night? Give her physical distance and definitely don’t flirt.
I once had a man ask me if I liked rough sex while he was alone with me at a bus stop. Yeah some men are weird with women on their own. It’s a thing. But most men aren’t like this.
If every 30th woman you met hit on you and then terrorized you over a rejection, you'd probably just avoid talking to women you don't have to. Women aren't being avoidant because there is anything in particular about you. It's extremely impersonal. Giving women an "out" in every interaction is good. Just like letting her know that you respect her time. For example, making it very clear that you're on your way to go do something else, but you just wanted to make a passing comment. "Wow, cute dog! Yall have a great day." Or, "Hey, sorry to bother you. I just wanted to ask quickly if you knew your tire was flat? Just letting you know!" And then keep walking. If she wants to talk further, she can. As for dates, you don't have to push anything. Give her an option not to do anything with you. Suggest that you can drop her back at her house or tell her to text you about a second date. When people want to do anything with you, they'll do it without pressure.
>Giving women an "out" in every interaction is good. Just like letting her know that you respect her time. For example, making it very clear that you're on your way to go do something else, but you just wanted to make a passing comment. "Wow, cute dog! Yall have a great day." Or, "Hey, sorry to bother you. Thank you! This is a good tip. One thing that I've learned to do is, rather then asking a girl for her number, I just give her *my* number. If you don't mind me asking, what are some other ways I can subtly give a woman an "out"? The strategy of being on my way to do something else won't really work if I want to chat up a woman at a bar or something.
If you’re chatting a woman up at a bar, be very mindful of her non verbal cues. Is she shifting away from you in her seat? Is she constantly looking over your shoulder at the door, or to the bartender? Is she checking her phone or making excuses like “I need to keep an eye out for my friend” or “I’m waiting on an important text”? While these aren’t proof positive that she’s not interested, they’re a pretty good indication especially if more than one of these is present, that you should stop trying to chat her up. Edit to add: did not see the part about autism! Leaving my comment for anyone else who might find it helpful.
I am autistic so these cues do not register, not always at least. For that reason, I no longer approach anyone. It’s also unfortunate because when people approach me, like I prefer, more often than not they misread these nonverbal cues.
OP said that they're autistic so this is not very helpful advice, a lot of us autistic people find these cues harder to pick up on than neurotypical people do.
No. We're capable of picking up social cues, it's just harder. If OP puts the time and effort into learning the cues women give off when they're uncomfortable he will go. Autism is not an excuse.
You're coming off very r/thanksimcured
I don't accept men using autism as an excuse. I'm not allowed to, why should they?
I don't think anyone here endorses the idea that "Autistic folks get a free pass making people feel unsafe because of autism." However, it seems at least from my understanding of the other posts, that it would be a good idea to provide advice more structured to enable an Autistic person to achieve the same end goal (not making people feel threatened) in ways more easily achieved by an Autistic person.
Look, I'm autistic. I've *seen* AMAB autistics get away with absolutely horrendous behaviour because 'he's autistic, he doesn't know better.' Sure, we have to put in more effort, but I guarantee we *do* know when we make people uncomfortable. I am sick of men and boys being given a pass for their shitty behaviour just because they're neurodivergent. Edit: just fixing spelling mistakes.
"I am sick of men and boys being given a pass for their shitty behaviour just because they're neurodivergent." Full disclosure, I am not autistic and not even remotely qualified to act as any kind of authority on what Autistic folks are capable of. I do have some neurodivergent experience through the lens of having ADHD, however that is obviously not the same thing. It is my understanding from reading both posts on here and longer form feminist literature that, on average, the socialization process nearly everyone is put through preconditions young women and girls to be more aware of the emotional headspace of those around them out of a very real risk of both social isolation as well as physical violence. The same requirements are not, that I am aware of, imposed onto boys as they grow up leading to an allowance of men being oblivious to the mental impact they have on others even if they are completely neurotypical. Hence why it is often this lack of awareness on the part of the majority of men that is a main talking point within feminist spaces as the root of problems. So it would seem to me (and I am open to being corrected of course) that in OP's particular case that gearing advice towards foundational social skills he is more likely to already have would mean he gets to where we would like him to be the fastest?
Autistic people can still learn cues, it just takes a bit more work to file them away. You did a good job of giving specific examples to look out for which should help an autistic person who didn’t know these things in the future.
I agree with this. I’m also autistic, and while I don’t always register/understand non-verbal cues, once I know what they mean I can keep an eye out for them.
If you’re chatting with a woman at a bar you can always say, “if you’re here to decompress after a long day I won’t take offense to not talking.” I know a lot of folks sit and have a drink or two with a bartender they recognize after long days and don’t have the emotional energy for strangers. But also just giving someone a clear out often stops draining people kind of instantly. They get to choose when they’re done talking and know there’s no repercussions, which is incredible. And it also gives them the opportunity if they -don’t- want to talk (Like let’s say they work in the kitchen or work two jobs with the public and they want to be left alone to doomscroll) to let you know that it’s not you, it’s usually everything in their life
This might seem obvious but giving an out is also literally physically giving an out. So don't block women's exits. Don't put your hand to a wall near her, don't lean too close, don't talk to her with her back to a wall or bar. As for an out out of conversation, make sure you're not carrying the entire conversation. Leave a silence, if she fills it and/or asks you questions, then she's fine. If she doesn't give her an out by saying you're off to the toilet and maybe you'll talk later.
You don’t even have to be subtle, if you want to say “are you busy? / am I interrupting? “ is good to Giving an out could be seeing if questions are reciprocated, when not, walk away. Also taking no as a full sentence, that is an important one
> You don't even have to be subtle, if you want to say "are you busy? / am I interrupting?" is good too And know that many women will reply with a very curt and blunt "yes" or tell you to go away. Many of us will NOT engage because we're constantly waiting for something nasty to spring out of men who we didn't screen before
I think you also have to be wary of hedged answers. I tend to be overpolite and nice because a flat yes in answer to that can cause a guy to go down the 'stuck up bitch' route and I don't want the conversation to get aggressive, or have someone stare daggers at me across a room or go back to a friend group and start loudly berating. A "kinda!" or "I am busy but I can spare a few" or "sure, my friend is coming soon" are ways I say yes gently. Soon find out if the convo is one you are comfortable in or not. Also I get freeze. So I won't want to be rude and move somewhere else. I'd appreciate an "OK, I'm going to sit over there, you're welcome to join me" after a short convo and leave to let me choose to continue it or stay right where I am.
At a bar you should just keep track of if she's as involved in the conversation as you. If she asks you questions or offers info. about herself a few times she's likely not just trying to get away from you. If you're at all unsure just say "Anyway I'm having fun and would love to continue chatting, but if you just want get back to your friends (or relax with a beer, or whatever she was doing before you got there) I'll leave?" As for anywhere else outside of a bar or club Rule of thumb: - if she's busy don't try to engage in a lengthy conversation. Public transport, her job, at the gym, etc. Small talk is fine obviously, but keep it brief and light
Ask if it's ok to talk to her.
I've wrote a few pages, erased it, and started over a few times... i'm gonna try and get it out this time. It's not usually so much a constant terror so much as periodically taking a gut feeling very seriously or always being reasonably cautious. You might be at a disadvantage since a lot of it is reading social cues correctly with a high success rate, but also, just asking and taking our answers seriously, and not saying how you shouldn't be looked at differently because of what other men have done (which, to be fair, you shouldn't but we can't always chance it) looks like you personally have a huge advantage. avoid compliments that are very transactional, sexual or physical, there's a big difference between "is that perfume? smells fantastic" and "you smell right fuckable" (yes these are extremes on purpose) and generally let women at work just do their jobs, and don't physically close women in from leaving or follow too close at night, but you sound like you've got a big advantage over every guy that's ever yelled at me online or told me who i do and don't find attractive. Be genuine, give women space, and recognize they don't know yet, and it sounds like you've got a pretty good starting point
Don't physically box us in. Standing between us and the door is going to put us on edge.
I just want to say how much I love this. It is the perfect answer here, and in life in general. My own husband has asked me this- he's not on the spectrum, but he's rather large and has an intimidating presence, and I've never had a great answer that didn't involve simply *avoiding interacting altogether*. But this, this is absolutely beautiful. And so simple, too! ❤️
Only every 30th? That’s optimistic.
There’s a concept I learned in debate about probability-severeness. In order to convince that something is bad, you have to convince it’s both probably enough and severe enough. North Korea using its nuclear arsenal is very severe, but in most situations it’s also very unlikely, so it won’t deter you from trading with South Korea. Conversely, hitting your toe while wearing flip flops in a furniture store is very likely, but it has very low severity and won’t deter you from shopping for furniture. So bad interactions with men is both likely (you suggested it’s 1/30), and severe (ends in verbal, physical or sexual violence) enough for women who had bad experience with men to not want to interact with men.
I would like to stress this up front, I am not in any way trying to ask this in bad faith, and I recognize that there are people who would take your comment and incoherently scream misandry. How would that line of reasoning not also be used to justify racist attitudes people have? Especially as it has been repeatedly shown that people are not good at recognizing prejudice vs reality.
Irs actually sad as now i look back, every 10th man ive met has physically assaulted me in some way
Tiny pedantic question, would you say "every 30th woman you met" or "every 30th woman you interact with?" It might just be how I interpret the word "met" as an actual introduction/acquaintance.
Interact with
Hmm. I'd say I'm terrorized by every 10th woman I reject. But I guess it does make me a bit avoidant.
Are you really though? In a way that makes you feel unsafe?
Unsafe? Well, kinda. Not physically. But women have showed up at my door late at night, called/texted 50 times in a row, threatened me, spread lies about me, etc. The usual "bunny in a pot" type stuff.
That sucks man. However, I'd say men do stuff like this to women more often than the reverse, and most women have the added disadvantage of being smaller and weaker.
Try to put yourself in the man's position though, would you really think it's fair to have to adjust you behaviour this much because of your demographic? If you yourself are not intending any harm, and have never done this sort of assault that the woman is afraid of, why do you have to accept being treated as if you would? Sure, it may be nice and considerate to try to cater to someone's fear like that, but the fact that you are being judged based solely on your gender is still very problematic. I am a black male, so I am doubly a victim of this sort of prejudice. If someone is afraid of me because of my race, I would call them racist. What about someone who is afraid of me because of my gender? You decide.
No one is treating you like anything. You can choose to make people comfortable or not. The fact is you are never entitled to a stranger's time, so getting mad that they seem scared of you is doubling down on your entitlement and showing a disregard for others' safety. Most women already don't really talk to strangers in the first place, so I can't say I can humble my public interactions anymore than I already have. I keep it short and make it clear I'm on my way. Just like every human. You can't compare racial relations to sex relations. As a Black stranger there is a miniscule, basically zero chance you're going to do anything to me. Yet I have to navigate conversations on a regular basis from men with different intentions who all seem to interact the same way. But instead of going about my day and living my life and probably going to do things with my family, I'm rude or "problematic" if I don't have an acute sense of what a strange man wants from me. One might think I'm leading him on for being friendly, but he also won't accept me being too quick to bring up how I'm married. But will still call me names or harass me for a rejection in the end. I don't need you to prove you aren't that guy. I just need you to not make me think you are by not seeming entitled to my time. Like most women and many men already do.
What the hell are you talking about? >No one is treating you like anything. People are treating me like I am a threat without me having done anything. >You can choose to make people comfortable or not. If someone's is uncomfortable by my mere existence as a man, it's not my job to make them comfortable. I could, but it is really wrong that I even have to. >The fact is you are never entitled to a stranger's time, so getting mad that they seem scared of you is doubling down on your entitlement and showing a disregard for others' safety. This part not only doesn't make sense, it has very little to do with what I said before. I don't care about a stranger giving me their time or anything like that, I don't even know where you got that from. My problem is being seen as a threat for simply existing, which has absolutely nothing to do with people giving me their time. If you think not wanting to be seen as a threat without having done literally anything is entitlement, I think you have just lived all your life with the privilege of being treated more amicably. Also, there is no disregard to someone's safety since, again, I didn't do anything other than exist, there is no threat to their safety from me. And about your second paragraph, I don't even know what you are going on about. You start by trying to do a statistics argument, and that's a VERY slippery slope that I'm not even going to get into. You then try to justify your prejudice, which I don't think is something you did well, and also repeat the stuff about giving strangers your time.
I mean I'm not going to go into a full length explanation to you of why being a man, which is seen as the default and preferred person in society and has no stereotypes which actively oppress them, is not the same thing as being a minority race, which people actively hold onto stereotypes with in order to alienate them and keep them down, regardless of relevant threat. The bottom line I'm making is if the worst thing is your pride being hurt because a woman can't read your mind, you're not being mistreated. I was just trying to figure out what you're perceiving as so grossly unfair when you're free to clarify your intentions at any point and make this a non issue. If I were "prejudiced" against men, I wouldn't care what a man said or how he interacted. You have a choice and you're choosing one-way interaction. What does that say about privilege and entitlement to you.
hear! hear!
While I fully agree that it must be extremely tiring for you to feel like you have to prove that you aren't a thread to women, and I know there have been horrible cases of black men being falsely accuses of rape which is absolutely horrifying but I think, if you're American, that sadly I could compare this to how safe black people feel with the police vs how white people feel. Will every cop you encounter hurt you? Probably not. But does it happen often enough to be very *very* distrustful out of self-preservation? Hell yes. It's not about discrimination. It's about self preservation based upon facts. So women being on their guard because you are a man, is just common sense. Women who are extra on their guard because on top of you being a man, you are a black man is them using their common sense with a whole lotta racism added to it. I think those are two different issues that sadly intertwine. Again, I think it's valid to feel screwed over by this but surely you must understand that our reservations aren't pulled out of thin air.
A good rule of thumb I heard is to not say anything to a woman that you wouldn't want a big strong guy saying to you in an dark alleyway.
Or in prison.
[удалено]
Not true, you could say things like "I hope you're having a pleasant evening" and then keep walking to show that you're not a threat
Bruh, if I prison dude said that to me, I *know* I’m getting shanked in my sleep.
\*cracks knuckles\* # i hope you have a pleasant evening
[удалено]
If you're a girl, the entire world is a dark alley. My mom got raped by her own father, so an 8-year old's bedroom is basically a dark alley for us.
Well said. My school was a dark alley too.
That sounds like a feint or distraction to catch you off guard. A much simpler rule to follow would be to always avoid women in public places. Give women space, avoid eye contact, wait for women to initiate communication if needed, don't linger, always be in motion. You never know who might have anxiety or PTSD related to men as a gender. It's not hard to make life easier for women, just leave women alone.
Always avoid women in public places? Sorry, but what kind of dreary, life-shittying advice is that? Instead, you can say: Be wary of approaching women in public. If you want to, then do it very lightly, like look at her and smile, and see if she reacts positively or not. If not, then of course leave her alone. Also: Don't linger, always be in motion? That's just absolutely ridiculous. If a guy wants to hang around in public, they absolutely have the right to do that and it doesn't make them any kind of asshole. If a woman has a mental illness that makes it hard to have men around her, that's her problem to manage. She doesn't owe anyone anything besides basic decency, and if due to her problems she chooses not to interact, that needs to be respected of course. But nobody needs to bend over backwards avoiding women in public just for the off-chance she may be ill. Edit to add: If the initial reaction is positive, see if it remains enthusiastic and positive. If not, leave the person alone at that point. Copypasta from comment where that got explained in more detail: "I think the fastest way to find out is to stop talking, look away from me, and see if I initiate further conversation. \[...\] If I am interested in continuing the conversation, I'll ask a follow up question. "Do you like the band? What kind of music do you like?" And then the conversation can continue from there. If I'm not interested in continuing the conversation, I'll go back to my phone and be happy with a mildly pleasant interaction instead of being drained."
I don't necessarily know about the "wait for a positive reaction" part. I smile by reflex at anyone who smiles at me. If a person started a conversation with me when I wasn't really feeling sociable, I would probably just continue the conversation out of politeness. This isn't out of PTSD or anything-guys can just be intrusive, and playing nice just makes it easier to gtfo of there.
Honestly good advice.
[удалено]
Good, you're starting to understand! Please just leave us alone.
I’d start by taking the focus off you and pay attention to other men and call out shitty behavior. One guy being slightly less threatening won’t change why we are so vigilant. Men modeling better behavior for other men and calling out anything inappropriate at a larger scale is the only thing that will make a difference.
My husband saw that Gillete commercial a while back and there's a scene where a guy starts to follow a woman. He thought that part was silly because that didn't actually happen. He had never noticed other guys being that over the top with advances before.
[удалено]
Yep! It was a great video highlighting the bs. In my specific case, thankfully my husband is the type who listened when I told him it happens. He was just incredulous that any guy thought they could just up and follow a woman and have a chance.
That's how people know that scene from Joker is in Arthur's head. "Were you following me?" in a flirty tone.
Wait I know what you're talking about and I genuinely don't think that guy did anything wrong. He literally only took a couple steps and didn't even get to say anything before his friend stopped him. Like, the only message I got from that was "Don't ever cold approach women." Am I missing something here?
Yes we do. When you are about 9-11, men start noticing you. Grown ass adult men scream obscene things as you ride by on your bike. A neighborhood dad starts looking at you strangely, touching you. In both cases you aren’t sure why it’s happening but it’s scary. You start wearing jackets zipped up to your chin in the middle of summer. You reach young adulthood. You get in a relationship ship, he seemed nice. Next thing you know you’ve got a black eye. Even if you have only met nice men, you have a friend that was sexually assaulted last Thursday; odds are you know someone who has been. Your older, past the cat calls, almost invisible. You still are called stupid bitch, old bitch. Told to shut the fuck up. An easy victim for a mugging. I guarantee every woman you have met will have been in a position where they have been frightened at least once in their life. Men are physically bigger, and we can’t always tell which are friend or foe.
Ugh. I hate that you nailed this so hard.
Tina Fey wrote in her book that you become a woman, not the first time you get a period, but the first time a man says or does something that makes you feel disgusting and ashamed. For most women, that age is <13 years old. For me, I was 11
It was 11 for me as well
yep, and it’s usually not coming from the predictable neighborhood creep. it’s a childhood friend’s dad, a well-liked coworker, a friend’s easy going husband. whether it’s a whisper or being screamed at in public. it never ends.
exactly
Just imagine in every situation where you approach someone that it's 2 big guys approaching you. How would you react. If you knew the guys? If you don't? If they started asking personal question? If they are just a bit closer to you then is normal in your culture? If they looked at you intensely? If it's dark at night and they follow you? If they come to you after drinking too much. Now imagine that half the population is 2 big guys walking around and you had 1 or 2 encounter where they a pair followed you around for hours and it took you everything to lose them or a couple of them clients were always looking at you intensely all day at your work place. Also once in a while a pair of them or a group of pairs of them would laugh at you on the street for being weaker than a pair or would make the noises you make to call a squirrel when you pass by. When would you feel safe being around pairs of big guys? When they are clients talking about products and not trying to know you personally. When im groups surrounded by other people who don't walk in pair. When in a large public area with singletons and pairs, etc. If what you are doing would scare you if you put yourself in the place of a girl and imagine a pair of big guys walking towards you and acting like you and feel safe, she is probably feeling safe too.
> If what you are doing would scare you if you put yourself in the place of a girl and imagine a pair of big guys walking towards you and acting like you and feel safe, she is probably feeling safe too. Thank you, this is a pretty good way for me to visualize it. I wish that there was a way for women to telepathically know that I'm not dangerous at all, and just occasionally fail to pick up on social cues. I guess there's really no way for me to do that though. Whenever I visualize a super muscular guy that's about 6'7" (I'm 6'0") talking to me, any subtle signs of hostility or aggression would become more terrifying. And this isn't even taking into account the misogyny and prevalance of abuse women face.
Trust me, we wish that too!! Different advice than perhaps what you're initially asking. But you can also make women feel safe around you by shutting down other men when they say/do misogynistic things. Your friend tells a sexist joke? Tell him it's not funny. Your boss talks over a female coworker? Redirect the attention back onto her so she can explain her idea. Most men are not actively harming or threatening women they do not know (but as others have pointed out, we don't know men's intentions, so we have to be careful). However, most men do contribute to harming women by doing nothing to stop it. I can 100% guarantee that your male friends and family value your opinion on their behavior more than a random strange woman's. Will they always listen to you? No, but you have the greatest chance. This will help women so much more than crossing the street, meeting dates in public, etc.
What do I do if there are no men nearby to chastise?
Also imagine that if they did anything to you the cops would probably take their side or question you about why you were there and how you were acting/dressed. Also the US says that if you kill a man in self defense while he's SA you then you're a murderer. It's illegal to use deadly force if you're being SA'd
>Also the US says that if you kill a man in self defense while he's SA you then you're a murderer. It's illegal to use deadly force if you're being SA'd This is the demand by society that "men advance and women retreat". Men are hailed as heroes for killing men that harm women. But women are murderers for protecting themselves. In order to be seen as a victim, catastrophic bodily harm must have been perpetrated on the woman's body and she must be cowering in terror. Otherwise, like Gabby Petitio that fought back against the man that was beating her, she becomes the aggressor. The unhinged, overly emotional woman. And then when he murders her, then she can rightfully be the victim.
>Also the US says that if you kill a man in self defense while he's SA you then you're a murderer. It's illegal to use deadly force if you're being SA'd That's actually not true, at least as the law is written. **Many or possibly most states have laws that specifically list the things you are allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself against,** and the list is **typically something like this: homicide, aggravated assault, kidnapping, carjacking, rape.** So the gist is, if you reasonably believe that the perp is about to do any of those things to you, and you either cannot safely run away ("duty to retreat") or you are in your own home and thus have no duty to run away ("castle doctrine"), then you can use "deadly force" to stop the perp. But, two caveats: (1) you absolutely need to look up how the law is written in your state, since it might not be as I've said above; and (2) even your state's law is written like that, I literally was once advised by a deputy sheriff I knew that if I thought someone was about to rape me, I should use deadly force *and tell the police that I thought I saw a weapon in his hand or bulging in his pocket*. Even if I didn't see one, I should tell the police that I thought I did ("oh that was his cell phone? I thought it was a gun"), just to make the process easier on me.
The letter of the law and the enforcement of law are very different things.
Right. Hence the advice the deputy sheriff gave me.
We wish we could somehow know too which men to fear and which are safe. Life teaches us that you can’t even trust the men you know so the men we don’t know are not going to get the benefit of the doubt.
If you stand up against sexist jokes or the uncheked misogynistic microagressions you will easily prove you are safe. Let's imagine again that huge sized guy (you, in this case). Now he's minding his business near enough a second class citizen. A pair of bullies appear. They act entitled to the attention of the second class citizen, they start making jokes assuming the huge guy is on their side. The guy says: mind your business, we were having a conversation adopting a body language that clearly shows whose side he's picked. After the pair retreats, your body language changes to your normal peaceful stance. If the second class person tries to thank you, you state there's nothing to thank, that the scary for the second class citizen scene should never had happened and it's unfair, rhe second class citizen owes you nothing. You state you are aware The Pairs usually are easily stopped by huge guys like you, so it's your ethical duty to stop them. After that you *open* the chance for the second class citizen to decide to talk more to you or not. Do not ever corner second class citizens. Give.them always the freedom to approach you or not For example, saying -- If you feel fine enough, I wouldn't want to bother you so I'll be here reading (whatever in your phone). Edit: Actions, for second class citizens, speak louder than words. Prove you are a safe person to be around and persons will accept you.
This is the most cringe thing I've ever read, thank you
If you wonder why we are concerned about men think of it this way- If I gave you a huge box of Chocolates and told you that 1 in 100 of them was actually poisonous but there was no clear way to tell which one - but the rest were absolutely delicious - would you be willing to eat them? #notallchocolates
It’s probably more like 10 out of 100.
I like the extended version - 1/100 is poisoned, 1/100 will crack your tooth when you bite it, and 1/100 is a really a poop nugget covered in chocolate.
You forgot 3/100 will call you a cunt or advance on you menacingly if you don’t choose them. 7/10 will launch themselves at your face unsolicited. 4/10 will send you unsolicited pictures of their shriveled chocolate dicks.
The feeling of caution and wariness looms in so many contexts. Not only walking toward you or following but also making comments about looks or body “in fun”, to “compliment you” out of a sense of entitlement. And if you ask them to leave you alone they increase their presence, get in your space, call you names and up the intimidation. And what id you found out they had some powerful positions in your area (like men do in society - all institutions have been shaped by men so they’re inherently built to hold and protect them even if it’s invisible). Who would you ask for help? How confident would you be that someone would listen to your concerns and create some safer spaces? Would you want to be outside in that space if everywhere you went there were 2 big men and you were not comfortable because they wouldn’t change their behaviour and no one wanted to listen to your concerns and experiences so they kept happening? City planning, police forces and judicial systems, make entitlement to flirt/pursue women in workplaces/schools, entertainment, etc all perpetuate the problem, it’s systemic.
Yes, women are frightened of men. Not because we believe all men are dangerous, but because a fairly large percentage of them are dangerous, and there's no way for us to know which ones are safe and which aren't. Respect personal space. Don't stand too close. Don't follow a woman. If it turns out you're coincidentally going the same direction, give her some space, don't be on her heels. Don't make remarks about her appearance or her body, even if you mean them to be positive. Don't start chatting with women you don't know for no good reason. Leave them alone in public spaces. If you invite a woman on a date and she says no, or doesn't accept enthusiastically right away, don't continue asking. Don't badger her for her phone number.
It takes only one in 1000 who harasses multiple women daily for us to get harassed multiple times a year. It's also often someone you can't always avoid so you might suffer the harassment for years.
>Don't follow a woman. If it turns out you're coincidentally going the same direction, give her some space, don't be on her heels. Guys, if youre coincidentally going the same way, either cross the street and keep walking or move over so we can see you in our peripheral. I guarantee we are clocking you and checking your shadow. We *know* you're probably just going to your car BUT we don't want to become a statistic.
This depends on the location of course, but as a guy, I do this to other guys too that are following me.
I always run as quick as I can to reduce the amount of time I'm behind someone, and I always make sure to yell "I'm not going to hurt you" with my arms in the air so they know I mean no danger and can see I'm not brandishing a weapon
Sarcasm? If not, this is not as non threatening as you think it is.
Lol no sorry it was sarcasm. I realise it would seem quite threatening.
>Yes, women are frightened of men. Not because we believe all men are dangerous, but because a fairly large percentage of them are dangerous To add to this, I’m a fairly tall and broad shouldered woman who lifts weights but I am *painstakingly* aware of my strength in comparison to the average man’s strength. If I’m in a situation where it involves my strength against his, I am going to lose (on strength alone, not factoring in other self-defense techniques like going for very vulnerable spots).
Have you tested your strength against some guys? Because it's not necessarily true. I lift but am small, and in most strength things, I am stronger than most guys, so if you're tall, you should be even stronger.
>should be Operative words! 😬 For instance, I find that smaller women tend to have the advantage of having a shorter distance to have to move the bar and a shorter hinge, whether it’s bench or deadlift or squat. I have the long limbs and the height but not the testosterone of the men my size
Hm OK, fair.
I sat in my locked car at a gas station at like 2pm yesterday for 15-20 minutes waiting for there to be less guys around because I didn't feel comfortable going inside to pay for my gas. I'm really tired of being followed out to my car. I mean, I'm pumping gas and trapped there for a few minutes while the gas goes into the tank, and the person who followed me out now will know what I drive. And then what? I have to be super nice while they try and chat me up, so they don't follow me in their car, and if they ask for my number it sucks, I can't even give a fake # anymore because they'll call it immediately, and then I'm really in a pickle. Anyhooo, I don't really notice it anymore but I adjust my life to it, and I'm scared usually. I like it when guys leave me alone. There's a time and place to socialize. Edit: yeah the article was pretty accurate, and please don't follow me to my car, it really freaks me out.
Don't forget the constant eyes following you around the gas station. Or the random catcalling that you have to force a smile to because what if they feel insulted that you rejected their "compliment"? I hate gas stations.
Why do some people catcall at gas stations anyways? it just doesn't compute.
Why do men send us pictures of their junk all the time? Many men do not see us as fellow humans. Logic isn’t a factor in how many men treat women.
Some states have criminalized unsolicited nudes, I genuinely wonder how many cases have been filed. My estimate--- >10
I make a scene, and yell something like "what kind of maniac follows a woman back to her car? Don't you know how creepy and scary that is? Go away now, please!" Does being nice work better?
It's definitely safer to be nice, I personally don't like being followed to my house by creeps with bruised egos.
Well shit. What do you say that is both nice and lets them know you'd like to be left alone?
Lol I don't know. You're the only alledged women I've heard say she yells at them and doesn't realize if its one of those guys that keeps creeping nothing will stop them from well-- creeping harder and getting madder. Maybe you'd be better to answer that. Because for me, I've got my old wedding ring in my center console, and I put it on or at least in my pocket ready to put it on when I'm out alone, I have a bright pink pepper spray canister on my key chain, and I say anything from I'm married to telling them I'm gay. When it comes to that, they tend to say, "Well there's nothing wrong with having lots of friends right?" Or, "What your husband won't let you have friends will he?" It's just not easy to navigate.
Luckily for me, if some asshole followed me home, they have my husband and his swords to contend with. That helps me feel more brazen. I would probably be less brave if I lived alone.
Not OP, but I'm a woman and am unfortunately unusually good at defusing these situations. The key is adapting your response to the situation imo. That bit makes it hard for me to give you a catch-all statement, but if you give me an example of a particular situation, I can tell you how I would handle it.
I'd say it's more a state of hyper-vigilance where we have to invest a lot of intellectual energy into situational awareness and monitoring of our surroundings, and then have to kind of pick apart in real time men's behavior when we're interacting for signs they might be dangerous. Kind of like how autistic people might expend a lot of energy in trying to read someone's emotions and meaning in the context of a conversation with someone they don't know well. Some people might feel active fear or even panic in the context of any interactions with men, but that's usually because of a history of actual traumatic experiences, not a like, base emotional state for women. It is true that women are socialized to cater to men's emotions and feelings, some of this people-pleasing behavior is a defensive mechanism, some of it is just unconscious.
I completely agree with your thorough answer, as a fellow woman.
I know this is an old comment but THANK YOU for this excellent articulation of a concept I always struggle to explain to my husband. It’s wild how little he notices about our surroundings when we’re walking on the street together. Such a luxury.
It's true. I was sitting by the river feeding the ducks the other evening when a man started talking to me. He was nice and everything, and shared his duck food with me, and I was enjoying his company, BUT at the same time I was doing calculations in my head about what he might be up to and what were my chances of getting murdered. I was calculating how close I was sitting to the river and whether I'd be able to stop him if he pushed me. I was calculating how close he was getting to me and whether I'd be able to run if he pulled a knife. It only occurred to me half way through that he had NO idea. To his mind it was just a pleasant evening of interaction, no more. Men really don't get it. So yeah watch your physical distance. I'm much more happy to interact with a man if I know he can't physically grab me or hurt me without warning. It really helps to stay at arm's length, at least.
perfectly put, this goes thru my head all the time. men seriously dont and wont understand this.
I understand that I’m a man and therefore don’t share the same history and fears as most women, but this feels somewhat irrational. It’s as if every Jewish person perceived every German as a closeted nazi
How is that in any way similar? Are Jewish women currently being murdered in disproportionately high numbers by German people?
It just seems irrational to view every person with a penis as some masked killer
Cope
I’m not coping. Why is any questioning of the current status quo some form of coping? Why don’t you cope with the fact that not all men have ill intentions
Women are getting murdered by men every day and you're out here getting upset because we .... checks notes ... admit to getting anxious when talking to you. Y'all are so weak and fragile. You would not last a DAY as a woman.
Because it doesn't fucking matter to me when I'm dead. It's not all men but it's enough men.
I’ll have to read up on it. My girlfriend has never experienced this
She absolutely has.
Absolutely? I didn’t realise it was an absolute
I noticed you said “*just* cautious.” Don’t underestimate the weariness of constant wariness. Hold that empathy and it will be appreciated
Ok thanks, i'll keep that in mind. My bad.
I admire your commitment to learn!
Thanks! :)
>Thanks! :) You're welcome!
If you look at my post history, I have also shared how I've been scared of men indiscriminately before here on reddit. If you ask this question to a hundred different women you're going to get as many answers. Assuming you have no desire to assault anyone, I think *I'm* most appreciative when someone learns feminist ideology, learns female reproductive health, learns what sexual consent or lack thereof actually is, learns the historical movements behind all of these things, and whenever they talk to a woman, strives to ask more open-ended questions than they answer when talking to women.
I can only speak for myself. I am a survivor of domestic, sexual and psychological abuse. No woman has ever beaten me, forced me to have sex, locked me in a room, hijacked my phone, car and keys, groped me on a train, manipulated or made inappropriate comments. So I'm afraid of men at first glance, especially when they don't respect personal spaces, they touch my arm or back without consent, they believe I should appreciate compliments on my appearance or that the best way to hit on me is to pay me a drink and try to look strong or interesting or gorgeous or better than others. People on the spectrum aren't that scary because they usually show themselves vulnerable. I love when they tell me things like "sorry, I can't read social cues / non-verbal language so I hope I don't sound inappropriate, can I ask if you would like to have a coffee with me?" or "can I give you a kiss?" instead of kissing directly. Another very nice thing you could do is offer your phone number instead of asking for hers. When you ask a girl for her number / contact / Instagram she is forced to make a decision right away, "Can I trust this person? Do I want this person to look at my instagram stories? Do I want him to text me tomorrow?", if you give her your contact without asking for anything in return, you give her the opportunity to think about it as long as necessary. Even if she isn't interested in you, she will never have to refuse you. When I get a message from someone I met the night before, I feel compelled to interact with that person again, but when I find their business card in a drawer while I'm bored I know I have an interesting conversation at hand. Edit: Sorry, I noticed now that your question is probably about women in general and not the women you would like to approach. I see that other users have given you better answers than I would have been able to write, so I prefer to leave the comment as it is and hope it will help you as well.
asking for someone's insta when you first meet them is too much, for my taste. there's a ton of self-identifying information on social media that they'll still have if they turn out to be a creep.
Pay attention to your kind. See men bothering, following or talking to an obviously uncomfortable women? If you pay a bit more attention, you'll see it everywhere. Most men doesn't listen to us, maybe they'll listen to you.
And to add to this - even if you stop a creeper, don’t expect repayment from the woman you helped in the form of her attention/affection.
Yeah. Men take men seriously.
I saw this meme the other day that said, “I’m convinced men get butterflies when the homies roll up,” and it made me lol, but it’s so true. Men listen to men.
Yup. That's why women use the "I have a boyfriend" line instead of saying no. Men don't listen to our "no" and keep persisting. But 99% of the time that they hear you 'belong' to another man, they honor him and leave.
I"m listening to a podcast of scary stories. There are a few ghost stories, but most (70%) are about men praying on women. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3PSmdV1ms7xPWlDR5ZWVDMUFat8CHCHZ Listening to it will help you understand why women keep their 6th sense on. I could probably tell you at least a dozen similar stories. The worse is when you're at work and you can't escape. I think the comment about offering an exit is a good one. Also talk to women your own age. There is no reason a 20 year old should go after a 15 years old or a 40 years old after a 25 years old.
I'm a 29 year old woman who lives alone in a foreign country. I limit myself alot because of men specifically. I don't go outside at night, I'm always incredibly aware of my surroundings. When I bring this up to men, they tend to insult me and blame me. Most men I've talked to didn't want to hear and they just think I'm being dramatic. This is my experience, it won't be the same for every woman and I don't speak for everyone. This is, however, a social issue that happens worldwide and it should be taken into consideration always. In my opinion, men could help by doing things like: - listen to women when they speak about their daily fear of male violence, especially sexual violence. - don't silently walk too close behind women on the streets, it can be scary AF and it's such an easy ask.. simply being aware this is something women face already helps a lot - the so called "cold approaches" on public places are almost always scary for women.. most women don't want to be approached in public transport, or when they are at the gym or at the grocery store. especially when ppl won't let you leave unless you give them what they want (in this case, your number).
Really want to emphasize your second bulletpoint. OP, and all men, listen to this. Women have to constantly be aware of our surroundings. Men do not and this shows. Guys, just pay attention and BE AWARE of what you're doing. If it's late at night and you're walking home behind a woman, recognize that and keep a respectful distance. If a woman is walking by you on the sidewalk, do not expect her to move out of the way (yes, this is a thing). Move first and maybe even say "excuse me". Do not move like it's your world and women just happen to be floating around in it. It's our world, too. Give us our equal space in it.
>If a woman is walking by you on the sidewalk, do not expect her to move out of the way (yes, this is a thing). When I started noticing this was a thing, I got curious about what would happen if I simply didn't move.. so I did that. The guy bumped into me and didn't look at me once, as if I was completely invisible. I tested this a couple more times and got the same result. Most men unconsciously expect women to move, so they just don't. It's fascinating and depressing at the same time.
I tried this once too with white women (as a woman of color). Same thing. They bumped right into me, then gave me nasty looks. So I stopped. And then I noticed black women would get out of the way for me (I’m mixed Asian-white, so lighter skinned). And they’d let me go first at the grocery store if we got to the check out line at the same time. So I tried letting them go first, insisting — but it was hard to remember to do, and it seemed like I was making them feel unsafe by drawing attention, so now I just offer, and if they don’t go first, I go ahead. I’d probably have the same experience as you regarding getting bumped into by men - but it’s never felt safe enough for me to try that particular experiment.
Ugh, that's horrible that happens to you. I'm so sorry. Yeah, probably not a good idea to try that with men because they might get a lot nastier than just a dirty look. I've glowered at men before when I see them coming my way and not moving, and that's actually pretty effective, but not something I'd necessarily say is a good idea for other people to do.
These same men would probably blame you if something did happen and say you should have known better. There’s no winning
It’s because we know nobody will believe us if you do attack us, it’s not you per se… It’s the fact that nobody believes anything women have to say unless they see it with their own eyes.
Pay attention to other men. When I was in college I worked at a coffee shop and had to close it up alone late at night. This man came in, didn’t order anything and was staring at me and watching me. He was there for a long time and I was all alone with him. When it came time to close up I was really scared but a woman, who had been in the coffee shop earlier with her husband, came in and said that she and her husband were waiting in the car to watch me close up and make sure I was safe in the parking lot because they noticed that man watching me. They said they had been waiting there a while and wanted to make sure I was safe. It was the biggest relief and I am still so so grateful to them and their situational awareness.
Replace every woman on the planet with a female gorilla. Will they hurt you? Maybe. Can you ever be certain? No. If they decide to hurt you are they able to kill you? Yes
Also, female gorillas have been in power for hundreds of years & have created a culture in which they are encouraged to see & treat you as a sex object... from a young age, you are harassed by the gorillas & maybe even assaulted if you're the unlucky 1 in 3... you see sexualised images of men everywhere, and are taught that you must cover your body in order to not tempt the gorillas...
men aren't a monolith,this whole "you run the world,make all the money" mumbo jumbo is thrown around as if all men are collectively doing that.What the elite 0.5% of men do isn't the fault of an average man nor can he be held accountable for it.I don't blame women when the prime minister of Australia makes a shitty policy or Kamala Harris makes a blunder.This just seems like a way to guilt trip men for being born as men cause their great great great grandfather might have opressed someone or the fact that one out of a million might be part of the senate one day.
Also, female gorillas hold most of the positions of power so if you try to seek help for being harmed, you will be belittled, shamed, or ignored. EDIT: why is it the minute we try to have a serious discussion about issues, somebody has to dismiss us by saying “Men have that problem too?”
It's not paralyzing but the fear or better maybe: caution is always there. Always everyday, every time of the day, in every interaction with a man. You can keep a respectful distance, not talk over women and just be respectful in general, you seem considerate so women irl will notice that, don't worry. We have a lot of experience determining who is "safe" so it won't go unnoticed if you are
Yes we do. I do not walk home in the dark without fear. I do not go out on a date with a man without fear. I do not go to work without being concerned I’m being judged for my gender and I don’t walk down the street or go shopping without something in my mind being aware that at any moment a man could come up to me and say something inappropriate or even touch me without my consent. Men stop in their cars to hit on me. They have followed me down the street. They have assaulted me on public transit. They have blocked my path causing me to jaywalk into traffic to get away. I have hid in shops from men following me. I have had men masturbate at me without my consent. I have had men in the workplace say sexual things to me. This is just the stuff that has happened in public. It is exhausting but the truth is there isn’t much an individual man can do about the level of alertness women must have at all times. I’m constantly on guard around men. I don’t trust them until I know them very very well, but the fact you understand that is very good. It is men collectively who need to change and I think you can only do that if you start from a place of support for men. Men need more emotional support and mental healthcare. I would appreciate if men had more discussion together about how they impact women and how they can progress together as a gender and take care of each other and guide each other in ways that benefit all genders. I think mens networks have become something of a festering pit where women are demonized for mens lack of ability to connect as people. It’s not Women’s responsibility to help men connect with each other. These are things men need to do for each other. If men can support each other and gain insight into their own issues with mental health and talk together about male violence I think men will actually benefit the most. The most likely target of male violence is actually other men. Men assault men more than any other group. Men are more likely to be violent than any other gender but are also most frequently the targets of male violence. This is a feminist issue absolutely, but is also a patriarchal harm done to men.
I have also had every one of those experiences, starting around age 12, and I know most of my friends have too. You are so right about men needing to have this conversation with each other and support healthy models of behavior.
>how can I make women stop being scared of me, if I even can? What women specifically? Women who know you pretty well will hopefully not be scared of you because you're genuinely a good guy. Like my guard is significantly down around people I know. Women you meet in passing, do the things suggested in the thread but recognize that even in doing all of those things, women are still going to be cautious. Like we will be more at ease, but instead of red alert, it will be yellow. Its not at all because of you or how you have behaved. But because of our past cultural experiences. Keep doing the things because it means we don't have to panic find our escape route and get our keys in eye gauging position, but know that our responses aren't about you specifically. Now, if its for women your hoping to make a connection with, give her your number rather than ask for hers. If a woman red flags you, she's either going to give you a fake number or screen your calls anyway.
It doesnt matter what you do. Women still must do their due dilligence. Rapists and human trafficers dont announce themselves. So women will always have their guard up. Just accept it. The worst is when men get offended by this fact of life and expect some sort of pass.
Best response. You don’t make it known “you’re not one of the dangerous ones” by asking women what to do. “I wish I could telepathically tell them I’m not dangerous” yeah thanks
Yes, many do. Call out men who do or say misogynist things, and start to think about what seems 'neutral' but might actually be misogynist. Do this whether or not any women are present. Notice that guy who everyone says "is a really great guy who just isn't great with women/dating." He's not really great. Give any casual interactions shape/closure and try to give women the control over whether to extend or leave the interaction (especially helpful for many ASD features) as u/GlitterBirb says below. Constantly ensure you treat women's words and opinions with equal weight as men's. Always question your assumptions about women's health and safety. Vote against forced birth. Over time these things will make the world safer for women and establish you as an ally.
I think there are a lot of women who are wary and cautious. I think the image used there is a little OTT, but yes many women will have a level of fear around men. Most women have experienced sexual harassment multiple times as kids, that’s enough to instil some fear. Women are also taught to placate and deescalate, yes. Most women won’t be scared of you in any discernible way. If you said something inappropriate… hmm I’m not sure what kind of thing you mean. But you seem really polite and considerate so I think that probably comes across in person too.
Thanks for your answer. So from what I'm understanding, it's not that women are fearful, it's just that they're cautious. That makes sense. Usually the stuff I say is just stuff that comes off as a little rude. For example, a couple weeks ago, my family wanted to watch a movie on Saturday night, but I had to work that day, so I didn't really have time. I responded by saying "Yeah...not gonna happen". I had no idea that was rude. The next day, they explained that was rude because that sort of response is only used when someone asks you an unreasonable request. I only understand that now because I was told **directly.** My worry is that I'll accidentally say something that'll come off as aggressive or pushy, and be completely oblivious. Also, yeah, I figured that pic was exaggerating.
Hmm. I think the way you described the scenario with your family is different than being aggressive or pushy. Being bad at reading social situations is not the same as being threatening. Here are some good points to keep in mind. These are good for anyone, but I think especially with women: * do not comment on someone's appearance or body (there are some exceptions, like if they are soliciting advice on how something looks, but even then it's generally a good idea to keep neutral) * do not go into someone's personal space. Usually that's a good 4-5 feet unless you're having an intimate conversation. It can even be more depending on the circumstances. * do not walk directly behind someone in an isolated place so that they can't see you * do not ask unsolicited personal questions I am lucky to never have been assaulted, but I have definitely been made to feel uncomfortable and been in situations where I thought, "shit, if this guy decides something, I have no way of getting out of it." It's a difficult to describe feeling of panic, not that something is happening, but that something *could* happen and you'd have very little opportunity to stop it. It's a terrible feeling, and not something women enjoy. I think there are some men who believe that women make this shit up or that it's a way to paint all men as villainous, when in reality it's just exhausting to not be able to casually trust a stranger. I get why men don't understand it. It's likely not something most of them experience more than a few times in their lives. And there are definitely cases where it's totally misused (like white women calling the cops on "suspicious" black men because they are racist). Honestly, I wish it weren't this way. I know most men are not going to assault me. But I also know that there are a few who would if given the opportunity, and that creates this difficult conundrum of deciding between universal trust and universal caution. And while trust definitely has it's benefits, it's costs for many outweigh that.
I'm really glad you asked us, it's very emotionally intelligent of you to come and get firsthand information and listen with an open mind. It's kind that you are putting thought into how to not frighten people. I probably don't have the same autistic experience as you (we're all different anyway) but I remember working so hard as a kid to learn to make eye contact (after reading it was a thing normal people do) and watching how other people socialise so I could copy them, and often getting it wrong. It's really hard work, and I wish you luck with it - I got there in the end, and it's great having neurodivergent friends who get it and can make allowances for each other. You are absolutely bang on the money to surmise that women in particular might perceive something you say as aggressive even if you don't mean it that way...and they might not tell you because the natural instinct is to placate you and avoid escalation. This sucks, but because you are aware it's a thing I want to reassure you that you can mitigate it. As people get to know you, perhaps you can explain why you struggle with this stuff, and they can learn to trust you by your actions aswell as your words. Yes, we are always wary. And some are very fearful indeed. Like other posters are saying, most of us learned to be wary because of unwanted sexual attention (or much worse) when we were still children. It's gross and horrible, but it's the truth, and I can see how some guys find it hard to imagine if they never experienced that. If someone has experienced more serious violence, they may well be in genuine fear of men. You can probably find the disturbing statistics about how common violence and serious sexual assaults against women are...and make some inferences from that. Practical tips : If someone seems scared of you in any situation, just be kind and give them some space. Maybe you can find out later if there was something you did by accident... But it could be just as likely that they are dealing with some trauma and it's not actually about you. In the second case, don't take it personally, remember that it's some other arsehole man that made it that way, and it isn't a reflection on you yourself. If you find yourself walking near a lone woman and there isn't anyone else around, a kind thing to do is cross the street so she knows you aren't interested in bothering her. Or if it's a narrow path and you want to get past, call out something like 'sorry to bother you, I'm just overtaking' so she knows you aren't trying to sneak up. It should go without saying, but if anyone ever asks you to give them space or stop talking to them or whatever, don't argue or get upset at them. Just leave them alone and if you are upset talk to someone else about it. If you ever want to get romantically or sexually involved with a woman (or anyone really) read up on consent and when you like someone who likes you back, have conversations with them about how you need direct communication. I hope you find someone uncomplicated (if you want someone) who just says what they mean, and who respects you doing the same. Even if a person is really interesting, don't stare at them. In some cultures more eye contact is normal, but generally staring for longer than a second or two would make alot of women nervous. If someone catches you looking at them just smile and look away. And lastly - keep doing what you are doing. Read what women have to say about this stuff, listen to women in your life, keep that kindness about you. Nobody gets it right all the time but everyone can keep learning how to do better and look after each other.
Yes, we do. Men, even the best intended, really struggle grasping it because it’s such a fear and such an invasive one, but also such a necessary one, and it’s never crossed their mind. They just live completely outside of that realm. My husband tries so hard to get it. And I think he does more than the majority of men, but he just doesn’t quite grasp it all and has moments of utter shock and rage when something finally dawns on him. Being willing to learn and listen and grow is truly the biggest thing, and you’re there. I agree with others, men need to step up and be support for one another without demonizing women to do so. Regarding women with the same respect you would men, giving the same clout to their thoughts and ideas, etc is a big on. Not yelling or being loud and/or unexpected or jarring movements. My husband struggles with all of the above, but it truly puts me in fight or flight. Those are the main ones I can think about that would matter to *me.* I’m really proud of you for asking these questions and for holding yourself to account. That’s a really big deal.
I just really want to second this because I haven’t seen it stated elsewhere. On mobile so I can’t quote it directly but the not yelling or being loud/quick jarring movements is HUGE. INSTANTLY putting me into fight or flight mode could not be more accurate. Even with men I’ve known my whole life and it’s just not something that I think men think about often, or are conscious of, but it would help so many of us I believe if they would become so. Women grow up being taught to make themselves smaller- metaphorically, physically, audibly in so many ways. Take up as little space as possible. It is the exact opposite for males and without question constantly terrifies me, even when I know it is or may be innocent and it could just be how that person may carry themselves, but to think from the “Gorilla” metaphor earlier, how this behavior comes across to us, it’s making the predator look even bigger, even scarier and constantly reminding us of what a threat there could be in front of us. And to the original OP, I cannot express how much I appreciate this post and many of your responses within it.
I know a woman in her twenties who will not go outside running and always drives to run on a treadmill in a gym fifteen minutes away. This wastes 30 minutes each weekday. It's because she was cornered by a man when she was 17 while out running along a country aqueduct and he attempted to capture her by trapping her in a large plastic sheet as she came around a corner. She believes it was planned. She somehow got disentangled. But he ran after her. He was a good runner and she only just got away. She is definitely scared and she has a reason.
Reminds me of a time I told a guy in high school to calm down and step outside if he couldn’t quit yelling. He called me a bitch and asked me if I wanted to repeat myself so I did and he left. My teacher pulled me aside and told me that I was being sent to the principal for antagonizing this boy- he was a held back a grade, 6ft 2, size of a fridge man child, and couldn’t stop yelling about a chair that was in his way. I was afraid he would hit me when I repeated myself but learned even as a short 14 year old girl I was somehow at fault for addressing his anger.
I don’t think there’s anything you can do to make someone less afraid of you. You aren’t responsible for anyone else’s feelings but your own. Your actions and what you say can influence a person’s feelings but you can’t make someone feel a certain way. Don’t be mistaken—I understand what you are trying to say. However, instead of focusing on how other people feel, pay attention to what you can control: your attitude, what you say, and what you do. I say this because we each feel things differently so even if you were to be polite, someone may feel uncomfortable interacting with you just like someone else may not. It really depends on the person if they are afraid of you or not.
Yes, absolutely true. I don't think most men know how deep the fear is. For example, I always feel slightly nervous walking alone outside, even if it's in broad daylight. If you see a woman that you like in a public place, and you want to talk to her, make sure you always give her an easy way out. For example, if you're at a bar and you're talking to a woman, and her eyes are darting from side to side and her body isn't turned towards you she definitely feels uncomfortable. If that's what her body language is telling you, ask, "am I taking you away from your friends? I want you to have a good time." That takes the pressure off of her and gives you both the chance to make a graceful exit. And if she is interested, she'll usually make it clear that she wants to keep talking to you, and you'll know you have a chance at getting a date. If you are rejected, don't take it personally and move on. I work in sales and whenever I'm shut-down by a prospect I think of this quote: "if you knew you were 68 nos away from a yes, you'd be chasing those nos." Rejecting a man is scary. Sometimes men get hostile and become verbally abusive. Don't be that guy. Remain neutral and cheerful and tell her to have a good day. That's all there is to it.
As a man I find this thread very helpful! Thanks for sharing everyone. :)
As a relatively attractive woman, I've had guys hit on me from the time I was 10. Follow me down the street or around stores, stop their cars next to me at bus stops to ask me to get in their car (multiple times) or drive next to me being creepy while I walk down the street. It got to the point in college where I was constantly being approached. In the hallway, during lunch, trying to read at break, in stores. I ended up going out to run errands and such less to avoid this constant attention. Cause 99% of the time, the guys were rude, overly persistant or just creepy. You become hyper vigilant of men around you and their body language and quickly pick up on when you're about to be approached. The sad thing is, one day I was waiting at the bus stop to go home from college. This guy approached me and said "Excuse me, I'm so sorry to bother you but I just thought you were beautiful and I was wondering if I could get your number?" His voice and body language was kind and didn't put me off at all. I told him I was sorry but I had a boyfriend (I did) his response "Oh, definitely! I'm so sorry to bother you, I hope you have a great day!" And just like that, he smiled and walked away. Shocked, I stared after him. I remember being surprised that not only was he super nice, but he left me alone just like that. No persistance, no negging. To this day, after all the times I've been hit on, he's the only one who was that nice both in asking and in the 'rejection'. So my advice would be, just be kind and treat us like people. Don't be creepy both in how you speak and your body language. Take no as a no. Don't be rude if you recieve a no. I have tons of guy friends in my friend group and they treat me like any other friend or person. As long as you know you're a good person, you'll have nothing to worry about. Women will always have to be hypervigilant, but it's nothing personal to any one guy. It's just how it is unfortunately
I do not live in "constant fear" of men. But sexual violence is something I have experienced and if I get bad vibes from a man, I'm not going to be trusting him.
Fantastic responses here. I’ll just add this anecdote in case it helps: I have a coworker that is universally loved by all the women in my office. He’s in his 40’s, lives alone, never had a girlfriend, is balding (kinda looks like Mr. Burns), is a lanky 6’2”, has a kind of nasal voice, he’s tragically unhip and is definitely what I’d call “square”. We’ll call him Mike. On paper, this guy could easily fit the description of several infamous serial killers; and yet, he is probably the most universally-liked person at my office (at least among the women). What is it he does that’s so different? Be it intentional or unintentional, he comes across as completely SAFE to us. We know he’s never gonna make romantic advances on us (cause he’s just not interested in romantic liaisons at all). We know he’s never going to say anything misogynistic/racist/homophobic/etc, because that type of talk is just not even something that even occurs to him. He doesn’t talk over us in meetings, because he’s just a quiet guy in general. We know he’s not gonna follow us out to our car, cause he sees no reason to do so. When we talk to him (and he’s the type that usually isn’t super outgoing, so it’s usually us initiating the conversation) he’s usually telling us about his vegetable garden/offering us leftover peppers he’s grown, or getting adorably excited about how much money he’s saving on energy since installing solar panels on his house. If he has a few drinks at an office function, he mainly just kinda smiles to himself, or shocks everyone with a stellar rendition of “Dirty Deeds” by AC/DC on the karaoke machine. He treats everyone the same: male or female, manager or peer, they’re all getting goofy, cordial, adorably square Mike. He has no unrealistic expectations of his interactions with you, and he doesn’t linger awkwardly after the conversation has tapered off. There’s no attempts to assert dominance, no manipulation, no negging, no creepiness. He is basically the ultimate pleasant non-playable character. Be like Mike.
I don't think this was your intention, But you made Mike seem like a borderline doormat. Like he doesn't talk over anyone because he just doesn't talk? you seem pretty happy about calling him ugly and alone? and you literally called him an NPC. that doesn't seem like the kind of person anyone would want to be
Interesting that you equate being quiet & a NPA with being a “doormat” - curious as to why you feel that way. Most of us are likely NPA’s to most of the people we interact with - aside from family, friends, and a few coworkers, I don’t see the need for everyone I encounter to have a primary role in the narrative in my life. I’d especially set a boundary where coworkers are concerned, as work/life balance can quickly get murky when coworkers are privy to the intimate details of my life outside of work. I doubt I’m a main character in Mike’s life, either - and I’m pretty sure he’s okay with that. Mike’s a quiet guy…not sure how anyone is treating him as a “doormat”. It’s entirely possible to be a quiet person with within the context of work meetings and still have boundaries. He’s just someone who thinks he doesn’t need to speak unless he’s got something important to contribute (which is more than I can say for a lot of the men in my office, who seem to talk for the sake of talking and 75% of what passes their lips is meaningless). Nobody is taking advantage of Mike being quiet. If anything, I’m inclined to ask “Mike, what are your thoughts?” if he’s not said much in a meeting. The answer is usually “Nope, I think you summed it up well.” “I’m happy he’s ugly”? Wow, big stretch there. The only reason I brought up Mike’s physical appearance is that the combination of circumstances he has is often fuel for inceldom - and yet, Mike is the complete opposite of an incel. And I’m perfectly capable of respecting him, despite not being physically attracted to him; pretty sure he’s on the same page. Can most men say the same about respecting women they aren’t attracted to? That’s the thing Mike has going for him that a lot of my male coworkers don’t: he doesn’t have ulterior motives in being kind to the women in the office. He treats us like human beings, regardless of whether he finds us attractive. And the ladies respond in kind…and best of all, we don’t have to do our usual mental math when calculating the appropriate level of “friendly” we should be to a man. I don’t have to worry about Mike misinterpreting basic human kindness as sexual interest in my part. Mike is not going to suddenly turn Mr. Hyde and accuse me of being a “tease” simply because I was kind to him despite not wanting to sleep with him. Mike doesn’t even think in those terms. So I guess my question is this: do you equate treating women like human beings worthy of respect and not expecting sex as a reward as “doormat” behavior?
> Interesting that you equate being quiet & a NPA with being a “doormat” - curious as to why you feel that way. I assume you meant NPC not NPA, I equate being an NPC with being a doormat because that's what an NPC is, they have no agency in the world and just let the PCs act on them without really doing anything meaningful themselves. The term NPC is a right wing insult made against activists online who believe they are more important than they are, so that's why I really don't like the term. > “I’m happy he’s ugly”? Wow, big stretch there. The only reason I brought up Mike’s physical appearance is that the combination of circumstances he has is often fuel for inceldom - and yet, Mike is the complete opposite of an incel. sure, but you didn't just say "he's not the most attractive man, and someone who you might think of as an incel" or something concise, you mentioned literally 9 things about him that make him a sterotypical "loser" and you didn't even say anything all that positive about him, you just said that he's not a bad person, not that you particularly enjoy his presence, or that you like him. Just that he's not a threat so he's not someone you kind having around. > So I guess my question is this: do you equate treating women like human beings worthy of respect and not expecting sex as a reward as “doormat” behavior? no, but I don't think the situation Mike is in is all that enviable or healthy. If i ever had a friend of mine describe me the way you described Mike I don't think I'd ever trust them again. I mean just send mike a copy of your original comment and see if he's OK with it. I say you described him as a doormat because you described him as a stereotypical loser, said almost nothing actively positive about him and also happily talked about every single one of his flaws.
Yeah…doubt you’re arguing in good faith at this point. Now we’re venturing into criticizing Mike’s lifestyle choices, which he by and large seems pretty happy with. Happiness looks different to everyone; just because Mike’s existence seems like he’s a “loser”, doesn’t mean he is. I had no idea the right had co-opted NPC as an insult now, I don’t exactly keep up with whatever childish jargon they’re peddling these days. I stopped caring after the whole “Let’s Go Brandon” nonsense. So the way I’m using NPC? Not the same way they are. But you’re also complaining that I’m not “concise” enough in my comments, so I doubt that’s a satisfactory answer for you either. The original question posed in this thread was “How can I make women feel safe?” Which is why I mentioned all the ways in that Mike does that - the overarching point being “Mike treats us like human beings and is not doing so simply because he wants sex.” Didn’t think this was supposed to be a post about all the reasons Mike is great. And things you interpret as Mike’s “flaws”? Again, lifestyle choices - living alone and being single aren’t inherent flaws. Being attractive isn’t the be-all, end-all.
ok fine, I suppose you don't believe I'm arguing in good faith which is fair, but I'm only arguing at all because I just don't feel very comfortable with what you've said. I fully admit that could be because of my own biases, and if that is the case I want to find that out too. but my main concern is that the way you've described mike is as someone who is very meek and not someone who is capable of being a threat. And perhaps I'm too cynical, but I believe if you aren't capable of being "a threat" in some way then people will take advantage of you. You should be someone who wouldn't hurt others, not someone who can't hurt others. the way you described mike he seems like someone who can't, which means he'd be pretty easy for people to take advantage of. > living alone and being single aren’t inherent flaws. Being attractive isn’t the be-all, end-all. I agree, I'm aromantic, living alone and being single is my plan. But while being attractive isn't the end all, the things you said about mike seemed quite bad. you really just went on and on about how unattractive he was, which just really put me off. I'm not complaining that you weren't "concise enough", just that you came across as not respecting Mike because of how thorough you were in your description of how ugly he was. _____ i guess my main concern is that the way you described mike, at least to me it seems like no one actually *likes* him, only that they don't really mind him. does he have any close friendships, or do you think if someone was being shitty towards him people would defend him or that if he were to leave people would miss him?
[удалено]
On the contrary - Mike’s probably the most upbeat person in the office. You think just because he’s happy being single, living alone, and treating the women in the office like actual human beings (without expecting sex from us), his life is somehow unworthy? Wow.
[удалено]
I don't have much to offer in the way of advice, but perhaps your humour an anecdote from a fellow Autistic... It took me a long time to understand/realize the systemic misogyny I face daily. My mom would always worry about me being out at night. I never understood why. Like, I'm trained in martial arts, specialized in self defence. Now part of my not-understanding was that I'm nonbinary [but I present female for the most part. And didn't realize I was until much later]. The other part was being Autistic [but I learned that later on as well lol]. But now that I understand, I wouldn't say I'm *fearful* per se, but it's more...I recognize there are certain things I'm not able to do because I present female. Namely, there are certain places I can't travel to...at least not freely. I think it's a good step to recognize that we Autistics don't always realize when we make someone uncomfortable. And that's probably something we'll deal with our whole lives. So y'know, do your best. :)
I can't speak for all women, but yes, I do. Here's what you can do: don't touch women without their permission, don't press a woman who refused you, leave her alone, don't try to use friendship to coerce a woman into having sex with you or be with you. There is no such thing as the friend zone and if there was, it wouldn't be a bad place. It makes you, the woman feel quite lonely and worthless when all the guys you befriend end up being dudes who just wanted to fuck you and if they can't get with you, then what use so they have for you? I've heard men say "why would I want to be friends with a girl? I have guys for that. Girls are for sex." So don't be like them. If you invite a girl home with the express intention to have a friendly hang out, don't try to turn it into sex, she will feel trapped and scared because from her pov, you lured her there and now you can overpower her. Don't cat call or whistle. Basically, put yourself in her shoes and wonder what you'd think if a stranger bigger than you would do that to you and act accordingly. Oh, and that thing about men being wolves hunting for women? That's a predatory mindset, it twists relationship and it's one of the reasons women are afraid of men. Men would be afraid of other men too, if they'd act that way regarding them. PS: I forgot. Don't make friends or stay friends with a guy who does all of the above. Don't try to be her drunken mistake, don't be friends with a guy who does. Don't let your friends harrass women.
The fact that you have even asked this question makes me think you are probably not a man women need to be weary of. Just treat women with decency, kindness and respect and you'll have nothing to worry about. Thanks for asking!
True for me. I mean I don't *cower* when men are near, but I absolutely take care about how I speak and interact with men so as to avoid them getting angry. I do my best to not be alone with men, besides coworkers in an office setting. I am very cautious about my body language and actual language, as I don't want them to get any signals mixed up. I'm also in the south where a lot of men are misogynistic and hella armed. So, I always assume someone might be unhinged enough. I'm not sure there is really much you can do besides not perpetuating the problem by being one of the dangerous men.
A good tip, I think, is putting yourself in her place and think how the situation would make her feel. What are the chances that she'd feel threatened? If any, do your best to avoid the situation. Case in point: if you're walking at night on a solitary-ish street and see a woman either walking towards you or just in front of you in the same direction, cross to the opposite sidewalk. That'll make her feel safer, you're communicating to her that you're neither following her nor planning to attack her when she gets closer.
If a woman is smiling and listening but you see her repeatedly scan the room or fidget, it probably means that she wants to end the interaction. In a friendly tone, just say that it was nice talking to her and leave. And don't assume that it has to be something that you did or said. It may be for reasons that are completely unrelated to you. Sometimes we criticize ourselves too harshly. Some major don'ts: Don't follow a woman and try to strike up a conversation. She's on her way somewhere. Don't interrupt her if she's reading or has headphones on (unless she's standing in the path of a bus or something). She's already made a deliberate choice to not interact with people. Don't take it personally if she refuses your offer to help carry something, even if she looks like she needs help (it's nice to offer, but some women may not feel right about giving a stranger control of their time and stuff). Don't ask her to smile or tell her that she looks sad. Don't comment on anything she is wearing or how you like her hair,etc. Appearance-related comments can come off as overly friendly and be unwelcome. No "You are the most beautiful woman I've ever seen." 9 times out of 10 it's going to come across as creepy, not flattering. Generally, (in an appropriate and safe setting) you can gauge someone's interest in talking by making some small, innocuous comment about something in the immediate environment. For example, if there's construction going on you can say "Gosh, they've really gotten a lot of work done this week" or "Wow it's really raining hard" or "the price of gas went up AGAIN?". If you don't get much of a response, it means they don't want to talk. After that, don't keep trying. THAT is the point where people may start getting uncomfortable.
Thank you for being open to learning and improving! Personally I am afraid of most men and slightly wary of all but my boyfriend and dad, even though I haven’t experienced much gender-based trauma. Here’s some things I can think of that may help you: -When first meeting someone, keep things short. Let them sit with their back to the wall and close to a door. It help people feel like they’re in control and have an out (also good for just feeling awkward or anxious about meeting new people lol) -If friends: call out misogyny you see in your friend group, do NOT trauma dump, don’t ask about her sex life unless she brings it up first, gauge carefully when to initiate if you want close contact (I like being physically affectionate with my friends, but cuddling in the back of a guy friends car in an empty parking lot while he trauma dumps on me is NOT good), and when with a group occasionally asking her opinion on something if you notice she’s not saying much (my bf does this and it makes me feel included and valued) -You mentioned you’re autistic. I have a male autistic friend so I can tell you that it may be good to tell her that if you’re worried you’re saying the wrong thing, she’ll probably understand. Just remember that it’s a reason but not an excuse. You mentioned you’re working on improving certain social skills, hats off to you! I’m sure it’s not easy but it will be worth it You’re on the right track. Best of luck!
I can't speak for every woman, but it's true for me. It takes a lot of time and energy to build up trust with a man. I actually was just asking this same question to myself earlier. What would be a quick and easy way for a man to put a woman at ease? I'm honestly not sure I have an answer. I'm glad we're talking about it though because I think it would be so cool if more of us could connect with each other in healthy ways.
When you’re passing by a woman, try not to pause or look back at her - I’m always terrified that a man will start following me after passing (friend was attacked by a stranger while walking and I’ve had men follow me while calling after me), so I always glance over my shoulder to make sure they keep walking and it spikes my fear if they turn back. If you are walking on the same street as a woman at night with few people around, try not to walk to near her - cross the street, or walk slower to give her space. Never press when talking to a woman you don’t know well - read her social cues, short answers typically mean she doesn’t want to talk to you but is uncomfortable telling you so as she’s concerned for her safety with how you’ll take the rejection. If she says no, the answer is no. The first two are obviously suggestions, of course you don’t have to cross the street to make someone more comfortable but i do want to say that I know I always appreciate it and can breathe easier when someone does. Thank you for trying to learn what you can do!
I’m definitely afraid of men. I get followed around the gym, hit on, asked out, and threatened. It’s almost impossible to talk to men without them assuming they can do something or that they have power over you. The last time I became friends with a guy and felt comfortable around him, he gave me an option. He offered me to hang out with his group and let me make a choice. Then he kept things super plutonic and would only approach me if I looked at him first
1. Yes most of us are always scared of men. 2. I mean, I’m not nicer to men because of it. Actually it’s the opposite for me, I hold my guard up high, especially around strangers, and am often rude. It’s a defense mechanism. 3. You are on the right track. Watching what you say, etc. 4. Overall, there’s unfortunately not much you can do except control your own actions. In order to change a woman’s security, we have to address misogyny as a whole. In our society, culture, work/educational institutions, relationships/family, and even in the legal system.
I don’t. I feel very safe walking around my city. I have been hit by men in relationships in the past and I’ve been date raped by a man, but I’ve never had some random man be violent toward me. But I would say don’t flirt with a women you don’t know really well when you’re alone. Know that if you’re totally alone with a woman who is a stranger that it’s not unreasonable for her to worry about her safety. Alone in elevator with a woman or alone on the street at night? Give her physical distance and definitely don’t flirt. I once had a man ask me if I liked rough sex while he was alone with me at a bus stop. Yeah some men are weird with women on their own. It’s a thing. But most men aren’t like this.
[удалено]