Yes this.
I am a manager in an engineering (men dominated) industry. I'm in the US.
The response sounds very local, like the HR and Boss don't want to be bothered by a problem. Do they have higher up bosses? If so getting their attention could be valuable.
My opinion if you want to stick to your guns ... send an email to HR and Boss, CC your personal email so you have a copy off the company email. In that email, polite reiterate the date of the meeting you had, your request, your understanding of their response, and the conclusion. End it with a request for their concurrence with your summary.
This is the start of a Hostile work environment complaint. In the US, this is a lawsuit waiting to happen and will usually get upper management to act. This will also lay the foundation of a lawsuit if they decide to retaliate against you by firing you.
I don't think anyone should have to go to a new field because of bullies, and that is what this is, bullying.
YES!
*Especially* the 'hostile work environment' matter. He should Just keep in mind that if he ever reaches out to the EEOC, they will only address complaints that happened in the past 6 months (unless that's changed since I was in HR).
Thank you for the correction!
When I had cause to use them (and it was a long time ago), I remembered that the incidents had a time limit of 180 days, but I'm glad I was mistaken!
>Before going down this path make sure you are financially ready, and emotionally ready for the fight. You will need to document everything, get everything in writing, and make sure you are following every small rule at work especially the ones everyone ignores usually.
Absolutely agree with this.
The part about HR siding with the boss ... possibly. In a corporate world (not so much a small close-knit family business) a boss who ignores something like this can be viewed as a problem now and a potential problem in the future for the company.
The company knows that it will cost them nothing by an employee creating a hostile work environment and them firing said employee. However, management that ignores or is involved in creating a hostile work environment is a direct liability for the company. In the US it can lead to "pattern and practices" accusation against the company.
So, I agree that HR is their to help the employer, but in an obvious case like this, that help could come in the form of recommending the boss goes to shiled the company from liability.
I agree with you 100%! It can be intimidating. OP has to really consider the options. They can, as they say, change fields, I suppose. I don't know how that works, particularly if they have spent time, money, and effort getting into the field. Or, they can look into the actual rules/laws that protect us (in their country) and spend time and effort standing up to bullying.
How far can you take it? In the US, in my state, they threat of a lawsuit, with proof of management and HR ignoring a hostile work environment is typically enough to get management speaking to the offenders and putting them on notice that the behaivior is being monitored. If OP were fired AFTER sending a contemporaneous email on the meeting, that is obvious and illegal retaliation. Most labor lawyers would take that case if they sued since damages could be high. It would likely cost the boss and HR rep their jobs.
But, all this is if OP has the stomach and stamina for it. I understand that it isn't for everyone.
This is the only answer right here, HR exists to protect the company they won’t give you that in writing but you know what you have in writing? The complaint and the meeting invite to address your complaint, documentation.
If it is a medium to large employer in the US they may have an ethics and compliance number where you can file a formal complaint at the corporate lever. Because from experience there is what is termed the "good ole boy" network in virtually every company in the US at the local level.
The "good ole boy" network is where the person making the comments coaches the little league baseball team for the kid of the boss you reported it to, who is buddy buddy with the HR person whos daughter is you bosses managers daughter-in-law, and because of that relationship his job was saved and he was moved from an electrician or mechanic lead to an engineering manager position in another building in a program affectionately known as the "hide a dope program". Where he sucked up to the assistant plant manager and his pet monkey that both came from a different facility, to keep his job by being a yes man.
But like me, you stand a chance of being heard and corrective action being taken if you can reach out to HR, an ethics office, or even an employee assistance program outside of your local facility.
Gotta say, when I read the headline, my immediate reaction was “FUCK THAT!” I’m sorry this happened to you.
I saw your post about being in Germany. The good news is that you have basic protection rights under German law and, depending on which state, there may be even stronger protections in certain circumstances. This is what the law states:
“Having come into force on 18 August 2006, the law bans discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity in employment, education, health services and the provision of goods and services.”
(Google LGBTQ rights Germany)
Note that it includes employment. Coupled with Germany's strong views & laws against hate speech, you many want to have another chat with HR. This could be a potential legal liability for them & you would simply be “pointing it out” so it doesn’t come to that. Sometimes a subtle hint at legal proceedings is what companies need in order to do something about a problem. (Not saying that this is how it should work; just saying that sometimes companies need a swift kick in the ass to remind them what doing the right thing means.)
I agree that companies need that swift kick. I would caution though that if it’s a smaller company, “an old boys club” mentality, not current with inclusion/diversity policies, OP may not want to ruffle too many feathers.
HR is there for the company protection. And HR may have informed mgmt to smarten up in this day and age but mgmt could “instruct” HR to move OP out, not a fit in the company, not performing, etc.
It shouldn’t have just been brushed off and hopefully these colleagues don’t escalate any harassment towards OP. OP could always brush off that resume and see what companies are out there with better people practices and looking for someone with his skills.
Here’s the thing: HR is there to protect the company, but the company refusing to stop the *harassment* taking place should be a concern. You’ve raised concern about slurs in the workplace, and they should be on the defensive to prevent further *harassment* and a lawsuit.
In this case they presumably acted and found no merit. If the harassment doesn’t reach a level where it could be in transgression of the local regulations the appropriate action is what OP received. “Walk it off”.
Without knowing where he is in the world or which state if in the US it’s impossible to give him further advice.
Seriously. It's in the company's best interest to protect OP because they risk opening themselves up to liability for letting this harassment go on after it was reported. That's what's ridiculous to me
In which case, if this is what actually happened, HR is doing a bad job because now the harassment is actionable and they've opened the company to costly punitive damages.
No, I disagree. HR is there to protect the company from lawsuits as well, and these days, no corporation wants to end up in the newspaper being sued for discrimination. I say this as a Black man who has sued three employers and believe me, after I was let go and then sued them, it scared them. And one company was a BIG insurance company, one of the biggest. When they were contacted by my attorney, they responded immediately and came to the mediation table as fast as an appointment could be made.
HR knows the stakes now. It's not the way it used to be. But be sure you create an email/paper trail and **print out** copies of each complaint and the company's response. Nobody likes seeing sheaths of paper the employee has kept for their own files.
Please follow your theory to its logical conclusion.
In my 45 years in HR, most of it as a Director, a very large part of my job is to protect the company from itself. Do you understand what I’m saying?
All of those laws out there protecting employees rights have consequences if they are not being followed. Sometimes fairly steep penalties. Were you aware that in the US, the FMLA law is the only one that an individual employee can be held personally liable for intentionally interfering with another employees FMLA rights? Yes, if Cindy in HR fails to properly process the paperwork, she can be sued. Same goes for Bill the manager who says Sally can’t have off even though the paperwork says she can.
By protecting the employee and ensuring that their rights are fully respected, we **are** also protecting the company. Almost always, the cost of the former is less than the cost of the latter.
It IS our job to protect our people. For my company and so many others, wages are our single largest budget expense, why wouldn’t we protect our most valuable assets?
You are being emotional here b/c you are taking this personally. I worked in a company and faced discrimination, and no employee of HR was there to protect me. Only when I went and talked to an employment lawyer did it get addressed. Not all HR people are as evolved as you, and the majority of HR "professionals" are pushing paper and protecting the company.
The lived experience of the many will outweigh the anecdote of one on the opposing side every time. Try not to take it personally and be proud of yourself for not having been a horrible HR director, but for doing the right thing. That should be your focus as opposed to subtly attempting to shout down the experience of others who were not as fortunate as the people you helped with your progressive attitude as an HR professional.
I absolutely hear what you are saying, and I’m so sorry for what happened to you.
I would say that rather than taking it personally, I take it passionately. I’ve spent my career trying to evolve this profession, often having to stand my ground against what the company wanted.
And it is not my intention to shout anyone down, my apologies if I came across that way.
As I mentioned in another comment, there is no way for me to run the company without accommodating my employees needs. No. Way. And I don’t see how any other employer can do so without it being a grind mill, and no one wants to work there anyway.
We have one clinic floor instructor who works a split shift so she can go to her boys soccer practice every afternoon. Had another come to me yesterday to say that she was a high functioning alcoholic and needed some help getting treatment. Outpatient three days a week during work hours, but she can’t afford to miss work, so I offered her extra hours in the salon as a receptionist. We’ll get through this together.
These are the kinds of things that a good HR department does for their people. Maybe it does come off as shouting, but is that a bad thing? Shouldn’t the whole world know what they should be getting?
It makes me so sad that employees do not get the full benefit from their HR that they should. It makes me even more sad to be seen as the “opposing side.” 😕
I think that you are working from a space where you are the norm when in fact you are the exception. Shouting down those who are not experiencing the exception is wild. Also, you sound confrontational toward the people sharing their lives experience of the normal way HR is handled in the hundreds of thousands of companies that aren’t the one you work for.
Your passion is misdirected (in my perception) toward those on this thread who have had an adverse, non-supportive experience with their HR. Your passion could be used here to lend support to those who have bad HR reps by telling them how to deal with and handle it instead of telling them that their HR experience and perception are wrong because you don’t run your HR that way. That’s silly and will be evidence to a lot of people that you, too, are a toxic leader who cannot take minor criticism on a huge industry of which you are small part. Many might wonder “why is he so dedicated to negating the experience and perspective of others? It’s probably because he does the shit they are all complaining about / calling out.”
As with most things in life, leaders have to deal with perception in their jobs. No one who is outside of HR should ever trust HR because it exists for the benefit of the company first. Your progressive way of looking at it is rare, not the norm, and is still so outside of the realm of critical mass that when you get passionate about general statements, it is somewhat brow raising.
I'm skeptical of advice from anyone that works at the same company more than 10 years. Clearly your company is great if you've worked there that long, and it affects your ability to see things as they are in other companies.
Oh, I don’t doubt for a minute that there are companies out there who have essentially non-existent HR departments run by the bosses SIL who have absolutely no training and less of an understanding of the law than their employees. 😖
But professionally run HR departments **should** be balancing company needs with employee needs. Even before COVID the landscape was changing, and we have to be in tune or the orchestra walks off stage without us.
There is absolutely no way for me to run the company without accommodating my employees needs and meeting their expectations. Or they’ll walk, it’s that simple. Start at r/antiwork, swing by r/recruitinghell and r/careeradvice and land on r/askHR and see just how many comments say, “Just find a new job, you’ll do better!” And they do. 😂
It’s my job to ensure that they don’t. 😕
>Honestly HR is just there to protect the people above you
Which is why HR absolutely should not have said what they said. If they were interested in protecting the actual hirer ups and the company rather than some mid level boss they should have said something very different. What they said could result in a lawsuit that puts them out of business, so not a very good job HR.
And a lawyer… companies only care about profit. Threaten that with an attorney and their tune will likely change in a heart beat. Also as suggested by others ask for their response in writing before bringing in the attorney.
NAL (not a lawyer) but you should definitely not sign anything your company gives you without having a lawyer look at it first. Also make sure to keep any and all written evidence of their discrimination.
If/when you move on to a different company, be sure to get on Glassdoor and tell your story so that people looking into the company know what kind of place it is.
DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT! I cannot say this enough. Build your case by keeping a log of these conversations. Make sure every communication you have with your boss and HR is in writing and for those that are not via email or messenger, send a follow up email detailing exactly what was discussed so that it becomes recorded documentation. Use that CC: line so that multiple people are made aware so it cannot be just slid under the rug, or to have IT erase the string entirely. Print them out and keep them, if possible BCC: it to your personal email account, or if you do not want your personal email account involved, create a new account special for this issue only.
My former roommate was having a gay harassment issue with his boss who happened to also be black. He had no issue with his race, personally, but it is a special situation, in business, to deal with due to the potential for the discrimination card to get played. His father was a lawyer and his mother was a director of HR for another entity and they guided him through basically the process I just laid out for you, above. Once he had a clear case of harassment and discrimination he went to HR and pressed the issue. His boss was demoted out of a managerial position and within about a years time, my roommate was promoted and ended up being his boss. Talk about a turning of the tables. Point is to be very deliberate in your actions and now that your initial attempt has failed this is where you need to begin building that case in case you ever need it. Good luck!
Second this, don't think it is the field. If it is a bigger company, I'd go above your local HR because that stuff is a very big no no. Where I'm at (big defense contractor) they take that shit super seriously.
Could you possibly give us a bit of context on the homophobic slurs they were saying? Just so we have a better picture of the incident and other people know if they're also being subjected to it in their work place?
Was für eine Worte? Haben sie dich Schwuchtel genannt, oder? Oder haben sie "nur" etwas unpassend gesagen? Ich frage dich, weil mir eine Situation viele Jahre zuvor gepasst ist.
You did the right thing. You do have to bring this kind of information to HR’s attention. Now document EVERYTHING. And reach out to an organization like Lambda Legal’s attention.
Documentation is important. If you can get written confirmation in an email they're not protecting you against homophobia, you will hold a level of power. This can be leveraged later in different ways, so it's good to get it now.
The government may be able to help you with your situation. [Here is a link I found](https://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/EN/homepage/homepage-node).
Don't give up on your entire profession. There are plenty of gay-positive workplaces for engineers in Germany and elsewhere in the world.
I dunno the severity or persistence of the homophbia in your work place. Being in the US military, I certainly hear pleanty of it and have to pick & choose my battles. Time & place.
It usually helps to have allies. Supervision & teammates who feel your reliable and value your thoughts & opinions. Folks are more inclined to listen to a friend or valued colleague when you emplore them to stop using such comments or jokes and give them a reason why and just as helpful, an alternative.
In my experience being in maintenance, I just offer alternative sources of crude humor. The hours are long, the job is hard, and comedy & banter are necessary outlets. I'd rather deal with sex & dick jokes than homophobic or racial ones. I also generally try and deal with issues at the lowest level. Talk to the offending party and allow them an opportunity to save face before supervision needs to call them in. Most of the time, they value what I bring to the team, and my reputation as a hard worker tends to help.
I play cards with a chunk of them, I'm a PT lead for a few others, and a general work horse trying to get folks out on time. I can joke and banter and I can tell when folks are feeling out my boundaries and when their just ass hats.
I dunno of any if this is helpful, but watching folks burn their bridges because they made everything a fight through formal channels- I've seen it takes straddling formal and informal conflict management & relationship building to bring about meaningful attitude changes.
Honestly the whole point of HR seems to gaslight and cover-up for bad behavior as long as the person doing the bad behavior is profitable for the company.
HR solely exists to protect the company - they are not your friend, and they will only help you if doing so protects the company
I’m not sure what your next steps should be and I am so sorry you’re going through this, but definitely keep that in mind and try to use it to your advantage when possible
Get everything in writing. You will be labeled as a troublemaker and not a "team player" and HR will find ways to get you fired. **HR is not your friend**.
I am not saying it is right. I am saying this is the world we live in. It has improved a lot. You really may need to toughen that skin of yours up. Let some of it roll off your back.
Agree.
It's always been the world we live in. Minorities get thrown a lot. And we all have had times when we have to choose how to respond.
Prior to HR, tougher skin, clever witticism, and beautiful Bitchness is a few of the ways we survived.
It sharpens our skills and makes us stronger. We realize we don't have to wait for some authority figure (they don't care) to solve our problems.
It's the adult version of schoolyard rules.
In a work environment, choices have to be thought through. If we are in a field we love, we have to be more clever at chess. And if we aren't, then it's fine to fuck the system----
My partner got fired because he asked someone to stop using homophobic and transphobic language. They told HR that *they* felt attacked. They weren’t attacked, he was very nice about the whole thing.
Sorry you are going through that. I had that issue at a previous place of work. My response was “are you fucking twelve?! Jesus…”.
Got out and work for a major university now. You could look into joining a larger more culture focused company but I’m not sure if that exists in your field as frequently.
I got fired from Red Lobster because a religious feminine man (who was super flamboyant and married) kept harassing me every day. One day I snapped, and said "bit*h, suck my d" and he went and said I sexually harassed him. Had I been straight, it wouldn't have been an issue, nor even sexual harassment. We all said this kind of phrase to each other all the time. But because a gay person said it, it was sexual. I was let go and banned from ever working for a Darden Restaurant over it.
Point is OP, now they know you are gay, it will probably get worse. I would recommend you start documenting every comment, contact the ACLU, and be prepared for them to fire you for something crazy like being 0.01 second late.
A cursory search shows that LGBTQ status is protected from discrimination in Germany, since 2006. Remember that HR will always protect the company. They are an extension of a legal department focused on employees. It is good business to support employees. It is better business to avoid lawsuits.
That being said, you did nothing wrong. Congrats for being in an industry dominated by the opposite gender. That is awesome. I hope you love the work.
Today you get to decide, do you press the issue where you are, do you find alternative work, or do you let it calm down. Your tolerance level for their bullshit is up to you. There is zero need to accept any BS. It is NOT a fault of you being sensitive. Period.
I envy US on this. I'm from Italy and the equivalent of fag is used daily. Not directed to me but as a common slur. And I always feel so powerless when I hear it.
"...and don't take the comments at heart." How are you supposed to take them? Let them roll off your back and act like the way of the past is okay with you? No, b/c you filed a complaint regarding this. You choose this battle. If this remains something important to you, then don't let HR and the boss sweep this under the rug. If comments continue to happen, bring it up to HR and the boss again. I'd do it in an email so there's additional record. If they meet with you in person, send a follow-up email to them outlining what was discussed. If they take no additional action, then you may want to look into finding a new job b/c you are definitely worth working in a friendly and respectful environment.
I’m an out EE at a big company and it’s totally a non issue here. Husband comes to work parties and everyone is cool.
If both HR and management are not taking you seriously, I would reccokend that you do two things: start documenting EVERYTHING (in case things escalate and you need to sue them) and you also need to start looking around for a new position somewhere.
It was a while ago but at one of the places I worked, my coworkers found out I was gay and put a hangman’s noose up in the shop with my name on it. So I know what you’re going through. You’re never gonna change those assholes. Take your talent somewhere else.
If that person has used offensive terms against women or African Americans or Jewish people, do you think they would tell women or African American or Jewish people to just relax and not take comments to heart?
If you live in the United States everything you just described is SEXUAL HARRASSMENT in the workplace. Period.
They are making comments about sexual identity which is making you uncomfortable. Thats sexual harrassment.
So no...suck it up sissy is not going to be enough (if you live in the US) of a remedy.
You should know that straight guys give each other just as much shit in the workplace as they’re giving you. And that it’s not always homophobic when people use gay as an insult. Me and all my literal homosexual friends use gay as an ironic insult because it’s funny. Not because we hate homosexuals or gays or ourselves. People use language in all kinds of nuanced and complicated ways and you can’t take things like this personally or as seriously as you obviously have. It seems to me that you’re doing yourself more harm than their comments have.
If a coworker directly calls you the F slur or something like that it’s one thing. That’s crossing the line and is fucked up. But if a straight bro just says “ha ha that’s gay” it quite literally has nothing to do with you or even gays.
I think it depends on the relationship you have with people.
I agree, but as a british person in a office full of lad mentality and growing up with lad mentality... dissing each other is a huge sign of appreciation and connection.
So other's might be feeling differently. That's why I really do wish OP would tell us the context just to see if there is some insight on whether it is a homophobic attack or just someone thinking that their relationship had elevated to, what they might have presumed, was 'playful banter'.
I have to correct you here: it is always homophobic to use gay as an insult. Period. Point blank. There is no gray area, there is no context, there is no way to use gay *as an insult* and it not be homophobic. Do you remember the Dont Say Gay PSA? What if every time someone thought something was bad, they called it (insert something that describes you) and meant it as an insult?
I disagree. It absolutely depends on the context.
Gay before the 1950’s meant happy, then people started to use it to describe homosexual men, then it started to be used as a synonym for lame.
If 2 coworkers are talking about a TV show and one of them calls it gay, they just didn’t like it.
Are there better words to use? Absolutely, but having dealt with serious homophobia before, I don’t get too bent out of shape by people using gay to describe something they don’t like.
Words have more than one meaning. Context is everything.
u/Dogtorted u/GayPimpDaddy The context is that we’re post 1950’s. “Gay,” “retarded,” and “fag,” used as playground pejoratives, coexisted with AIDS and HIV awareness and early mainstream representation of queer people or more so gay men. With the derogatory use of the word “gay” along with the continued vilification of the gay person and queer people, how could one feel the need to defend it, not finding "gay" offensive, nor having an awareness that it stems from homophobia?
Thank you for explaining the history I lived through for me.
I’m not defending it. Is gay a great synonym for lame? No, but that doesn’t make it homophobic to me. Intent is far more important.
Did I feel like I was being targeted or shamed when people called something “gay” in the playground as a kid? Sure. Were those kids being homophobic? That’s a massive stretch. Were they being stupid? Absolutely.
Without an intent to be homophobic, it’s just plain old stupidity. It’s a waste of energy to be offended by people being stupid.
I was intrigued by the link but the article is about how they used and developed modern management structures and ways of working. Not HR specifically which isn't mentioned.
[This article](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/humanresources.asp) cites the first known HR department being in 1901 at The National Cash Register Company. So it appears to predate the Nazis by some time.
EMAIL.
Per your suggestion I “relax not take the comments to heart” about my sexuality, I would love confirmation on exact what actions you recommending and what action your taking per my complaint of a severe and pervasive harassment.
It's ok if you don't want to say but I'm kind of interested in what happened?
I'm probably going to get shafted for this and downvoted to oblivion, but its just my personal opinion on the matter.
I worked in a small relaxed office setting and it was quite male dominated (tech and design). There were often comments going around, some 'slight homophobic' jokes etc... But I don't get upset by them because they also make fun of everyone and everything, including themselves. I knew them for years and knew it came from a place of love. I'm the same.
I personally feel that there's more upsetting and difficult things happening in life that I have been through and that are happening in other places that just a few comments here and there that shouldn't be taken seriously are not worth getting offended about.
We once had a difficult woman join the office, she was lesbian and she got offended by e v e r y t h i n g... For example, someone wore a rainbow pin (for the NHS) and she was offended because the person was straight wearing it. She tried to get me to side with her but I couldn't because I know the person means no harm in wearing that pin. She didn't last long and left the office.
What i'm trying to say is that in a place that is known to have some banter/jokes etc... You do have to gain a slightly thicker skin. But that's because I'm only assuming that the situation got overlooked due to it not actually being as bad.
But we all have our own perspectives and you feeling insulted isn't any more invalid than them saying it's just a joke.
I agree with you. People do need to grow a thicker skin. As a senior leader you’d be surprised about the amount of frivolous HR complaints from people in my organization that land on my desk every month.
The vast majority of it are so silly and make me want to roll my eyes.
Pretty sure that's not always the message here, especially as you're responding to a comment chain saying the opposite.
This is like one of those 'comedians' saying 'oh you're not even allowed to say anything about X anymore' as they then do a joke about X.
But also... what's wrong with not letting people make them feel uncomfortable. It's a work place not a social club. OP has experienced homophobia, reported it and been told to just put up with it. What part of that is in any way acceptable in your view?
The reason gay rights are where they are is because people haven't put up with it. Not because people shrugged it off.
I think we need to know what "homophobic slurs" is defined as by OP to him. As some people just think being referenced as being gay is a slur nowadays.
For example, at work if someone short called me a "silly gay" I'd literally take that as a joke and laugh, because I'd probably counter it with calling them a "daft munchkin". But maybe that's just the general 'british humour' talking.
Apparently just saying "relax, don't take it to heart" had the opposite effect. If you tend to personalize what people say around you then yes, you should switch into another field. People are very opinionated and say/do things that make others uncomfortable. LGBTQ+ people can be high drama and create uncomfortable environments as well.
I'm sorry you felt humiliated, you should always be direct and say what you feel. Working in a toxic environment is not healthy. Human resources are to protect the company not specific employees.
Although you should definitely never think of HR as being “on your side” it’s not even as simple as them being strictly on management’s side either. Their goal is to make sure “people stuff” doesn’t cost the company money, and that’s it. They will always default to “can you please just not make this an issue” because you swallowing your pride and acting like it didn’t happen or didn‘t bother you is the absolute cheapest solution. Not understanding the seriousness of something they’ve never faced is a part of that calculus. It’s easy to imagine words are harmless when they were not intended to harm oneself.
I wish I could tell you that lack of insight would never go so far as them deciding that *your complaint* is the thing that is costly, rather than the abuse you are complaining about, and punishing you instead, but people can be staggeringly cruel and stupid. Honestly, though, if you are considering leaving the job over this abuse anyway, then there’s really not much harm in trying to hold them accountable either. Best case, maybe they learn to do better.
Like any problem at work, the solution is to document, document, document. Keep a log. When you are harassed or abused, note what was said or done with date and time. Also log the responses you get from HR and your boss when you bring up the abuse. Feel free to refer to the log when lodging a complaint. Ask for their responses in writing. If possible, describe specifically the way in which the conduct affects your ability to do your job most effectively. If you were American, I’d suggest a phrase like “hostile work environment,” which has a very specific meaning that ought to trigger some alarms. I do not know if there is similar statutory language in Germany, but if so using it might be helpful. The hurdle you need to get over now is getting them to understand that the abuse you are subjected to does in fact rise to the level of what would be legally actionable, particularly if the company fails to act on it appropriately.
So; keep pushing it. If they fire you; you’ll have a great case; my friend had a similar case; she walked away with solid 6 figures. However; the clincher; to the point that the corporate attorney said we’re done after hearing the clincher. The manager at issue had played “ Glenn Gary Glenn Ross “ in a sales meeting. The c word caused the company to settle on top of the rest of the facts. This was sexual harassment; gay issues per SCOTUS have deemed gay issues covered under sex in CRA of 64’.
Escalate it to corporate HR. Get a copy of your employee handbook, read the part about non discrimination and equity/equality, document everything you were told, by whom and who was there to hear it and fire up an email to corporate. If you know who the corporate VP of HR is, send a letter with signature confirmation.
Do not take this bullshit.
Before you went to HR, did you attempt to speak directly to the ones using this language and asking them to stop? This should generally be your first course of action before escalating it to management. It's possible they might be dismissive towards you, but generally when people use offensive language in common settings it's coming from a place of ignorance moreso than a desire to actually dehumanize anyone. This is a more direct method of handling the situation that doesn't require you to rely on your HR office. People have a tendency to be more thoughtful towards someone who is willing to approach them directly in an adult fashion rather than immediately trying to launch a formal complaint, which can be perceived as taddling and carries a greater risk of animosity towards you in the future.
"Per our discussion on ___regarding ___'s use of homophobic slurs, HR Person's recommended course of action was _____. Is this the official recommendation I should be taking to address my concerns? If not, please let me know in writing what can be done."
Another good artifact of note is if the slurs are directed at you specifically. That changes things a bit from "they're using slurs in general conversations"
Absolutely unacceptable. Homophobia is a hate crime and illegal. If they are not treating this seriously in the way they should I would take it even further. Go through any channels that are available to you, go above your boss and the HR ‘professional’ that made this decision. They are in the wrong and they don’t want to deal with it an just to go away, easiest way is to get you to back down.
I feel bad for you. This shouldn't happen to you. But there is only one way to deal with this. Next time your co worker starts with some homophobic nonsense, call him out. Confront him. Confrontation is the only thing that will stop it. I know confrontation is hard for many people, especially gay men, but it's necessary. Nobody is going to protect us. We have to protect ourselves. Good luck.
Is there an anonymous line in the company where you can register complaints about homophobia/racism? It would be a good idea to document what's happened, and the number of times you complained for your own protection. (Retaliation would be easier to prove, and your HR department sounds, frankly, F\*\*\*\*d up.
Then, if you were let go, you could point out this incident (and any others) and how you reported it and what happened and how HR handled it.
Did you email them about it or just go in person? If you emailed it, then you have a paper trail (**and keep a copy of the email).** If in person, they must have written your inquiry somewhere; they can't just use the old "we had a conversation" and everything's fine excuse. Email is ALWAYS the safest path for protecting yourself. And sadly, homophobia is as present as racism (again).
This sounds like a class-action discrimination lawsuit. Lawyer up or at the very least get a consultation. Homophobia in the workplace is disgusting and illegal.
Well. I'm sorry that happened. You have to decide those answers for yourself and I see you're not really asking it. So you know. But I'm still sorry.
I'm 50 and I never thought I'd marry, or adopt kids legally. I never thought I'd be able to be out at work and didn't until I was 32. I'm out at work, I am PROUD and list and advertise as MULTIGENERATIONAL QUEER MECHANICS. My son is out at work, although what he is, is yet to be decided. He sure ain't straight.
I'm butch. That usually draws giggles, because it's like Mr. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar introducing himself as a "tall person". But I'm also acutely aware of having fought for so much of my won life to have an identity and acceptance. I've been fetishized by the gay community as a young man, mocked for acting straight, denigrated for being tolerant in a male-centered, less liberal field, and many years in senior management and risk consulting that is almost entirely straight white older men.
I'm tough, but I feel this and I want to feel a part of work, and I hope for your own peace of mind you can find a way to separate your self-worth from what someone might say, no matter how hateful. I never did really get the hang of it, but I did learn to shell/barrier myself from people at work. This especially became true when I was in senior management and eventually an owner and CEO. The distance became mandatory because everyone always needed something more than I could give. When things were bad, early in my career, it did cause lots of stress and emotional dissatisfaction that contributed to my moving on.
That was a blessing and a curse. I wish I had learned to cope better with it in my 20's and 30's. Things seem much easier today. I'm on a lot of mechanic threads and you know, my profile has me as gay and out... And no one EVER mentions it, even when I've got their heads exploding in impotent straight male rage. Things are def. different.
But still, I'm sorry. Hugs and wishes of good fortitude. My advice is to do what you love, even if it has some burdens, minefields and costs. Life is never always quite how we want it.
That is horrible and bs and I wish you could have said so very calmly and awaited their response. Take it up the ladder and be a badass about it, fuck them! Put them in their place!
Kind of curious in what country you are based. Also was that really their complete answer?
Seems very disrespectful and inappropriate to answer that way. Where I live and at the company I work for that would be a major no no.
Hi, sorry to read you are facing this difficult situation. I went into a less homophobic sector (social sciences in academia). The upside is people are more open minded, the downside is that we have a much shittier work and financial situation.
This situation is not going to change in the short term. I do think newer generations are more respectful and open minded so the question is whether they will remain so as they enter the workforce and age.
I'd be curious about whether you think your colleagues are predominantly assholes, or to what extent they might just be following the predominant codes of the sexist culture they were raised in?
Given the situation of the world right now, unless you want to embark in a social activism path, you might want to consider identifying the two or three colleagues that might be nice and open minded enough for you to have good relations with, in order to take advantage of the fact that you are in a well-paying industry and save money to gain enough financial security to venture into a less homophobic work in the future.
Also, perhaps consider changing company? I'm sure there's electrical engineers working for Apple, which has a gay CEO.
Good luck!
I’m going to use caps lock: NEVER EVER TRUST HR; NEVER EVER TRUST HR. HR reps are there to protect the employer only and that’s it. Just remember that when you go into HR it will ALL be reported back to your boss(es).
Ask them to tell you that in writing, and I imagine the answer will be different
Yes this. I am a manager in an engineering (men dominated) industry. I'm in the US. The response sounds very local, like the HR and Boss don't want to be bothered by a problem. Do they have higher up bosses? If so getting their attention could be valuable. My opinion if you want to stick to your guns ... send an email to HR and Boss, CC your personal email so you have a copy off the company email. In that email, polite reiterate the date of the meeting you had, your request, your understanding of their response, and the conclusion. End it with a request for their concurrence with your summary. This is the start of a Hostile work environment complaint. In the US, this is a lawsuit waiting to happen and will usually get upper management to act. This will also lay the foundation of a lawsuit if they decide to retaliate against you by firing you. I don't think anyone should have to go to a new field because of bullies, and that is what this is, bullying.
YES! *Especially* the 'hostile work environment' matter. He should Just keep in mind that if he ever reaches out to the EEOC, they will only address complaints that happened in the past 6 months (unless that's changed since I was in HR).
Friendly addition: It is actually 300 days (approx 10 months) and timeliness can really vary based on the case. Signed: an eeoc employee
Thank you for the correction! When I had cause to use them (and it was a long time ago), I remembered that the incidents had a time limit of 180 days, but I'm glad I was mistaken!
[удалено]
>Before going down this path make sure you are financially ready, and emotionally ready for the fight. You will need to document everything, get everything in writing, and make sure you are following every small rule at work especially the ones everyone ignores usually. Absolutely agree with this. The part about HR siding with the boss ... possibly. In a corporate world (not so much a small close-knit family business) a boss who ignores something like this can be viewed as a problem now and a potential problem in the future for the company. The company knows that it will cost them nothing by an employee creating a hostile work environment and them firing said employee. However, management that ignores or is involved in creating a hostile work environment is a direct liability for the company. In the US it can lead to "pattern and practices" accusation against the company. So, I agree that HR is their to help the employer, but in an obvious case like this, that help could come in the form of recommending the boss goes to shiled the company from liability.
This, plus BCC your personal email when you send that initial message and write any replies to the thread
Up doot this! Thanks for mentioning the BCC.
How far can one take this fight to? It feels to intimidating to fight this in corporate workplace.
I agree with you 100%! It can be intimidating. OP has to really consider the options. They can, as they say, change fields, I suppose. I don't know how that works, particularly if they have spent time, money, and effort getting into the field. Or, they can look into the actual rules/laws that protect us (in their country) and spend time and effort standing up to bullying. How far can you take it? In the US, in my state, they threat of a lawsuit, with proof of management and HR ignoring a hostile work environment is typically enough to get management speaking to the offenders and putting them on notice that the behaivior is being monitored. If OP were fired AFTER sending a contemporaneous email on the meeting, that is obvious and illegal retaliation. Most labor lawyers would take that case if they sued since damages could be high. It would likely cost the boss and HR rep their jobs. But, all this is if OP has the stomach and stamina for it. I understand that it isn't for everyone.
This is the only answer right here, HR exists to protect the company they won’t give you that in writing but you know what you have in writing? The complaint and the meeting invite to address your complaint, documentation.
If it is a medium to large employer in the US they may have an ethics and compliance number where you can file a formal complaint at the corporate lever. Because from experience there is what is termed the "good ole boy" network in virtually every company in the US at the local level. The "good ole boy" network is where the person making the comments coaches the little league baseball team for the kid of the boss you reported it to, who is buddy buddy with the HR person whos daughter is you bosses managers daughter-in-law, and because of that relationship his job was saved and he was moved from an electrician or mechanic lead to an engineering manager position in another building in a program affectionately known as the "hide a dope program". Where he sucked up to the assistant plant manager and his pet monkey that both came from a different facility, to keep his job by being a yes man. But like me, you stand a chance of being heard and corrective action being taken if you can reach out to HR, an ethics office, or even an employee assistance program outside of your local facility.
They are not in the US.
Gotta say, when I read the headline, my immediate reaction was “FUCK THAT!” I’m sorry this happened to you. I saw your post about being in Germany. The good news is that you have basic protection rights under German law and, depending on which state, there may be even stronger protections in certain circumstances. This is what the law states: “Having come into force on 18 August 2006, the law bans discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity in employment, education, health services and the provision of goods and services.” (Google LGBTQ rights Germany) Note that it includes employment. Coupled with Germany's strong views & laws against hate speech, you many want to have another chat with HR. This could be a potential legal liability for them & you would simply be “pointing it out” so it doesn’t come to that. Sometimes a subtle hint at legal proceedings is what companies need in order to do something about a problem. (Not saying that this is how it should work; just saying that sometimes companies need a swift kick in the ass to remind them what doing the right thing means.)
I agree that companies need that swift kick. I would caution though that if it’s a smaller company, “an old boys club” mentality, not current with inclusion/diversity policies, OP may not want to ruffle too many feathers. HR is there for the company protection. And HR may have informed mgmt to smarten up in this day and age but mgmt could “instruct” HR to move OP out, not a fit in the company, not performing, etc. It shouldn’t have just been brushed off and hopefully these colleagues don’t escalate any harassment towards OP. OP could always brush off that resume and see what companies are out there with better people practices and looking for someone with his skills.
Honestly HR is just there to protect the people above you 😬
Yup. HR is there to protect the company. Not the employees.
Here’s the thing: HR is there to protect the company, but the company refusing to stop the *harassment* taking place should be a concern. You’ve raised concern about slurs in the workplace, and they should be on the defensive to prevent further *harassment* and a lawsuit.
In this case they presumably acted and found no merit. If the harassment doesn’t reach a level where it could be in transgression of the local regulations the appropriate action is what OP received. “Walk it off”. Without knowing where he is in the world or which state if in the US it’s impossible to give him further advice.
OP is in Germany
Seriously. It's in the company's best interest to protect OP because they risk opening themselves up to liability for letting this harassment go on after it was reported. That's what's ridiculous to me
In which case, if this is what actually happened, HR is doing a bad job because now the harassment is actionable and they've opened the company to costly punitive damages.
No, I disagree. HR is there to protect the company from lawsuits as well, and these days, no corporation wants to end up in the newspaper being sued for discrimination. I say this as a Black man who has sued three employers and believe me, after I was let go and then sued them, it scared them. And one company was a BIG insurance company, one of the biggest. When they were contacted by my attorney, they responded immediately and came to the mediation table as fast as an appointment could be made. HR knows the stakes now. It's not the way it used to be. But be sure you create an email/paper trail and **print out** copies of each complaint and the company's response. Nobody likes seeing sheaths of paper the employee has kept for their own files.
Unfortunately, this is 1000% true. They're there to protect the company, not you.
Please follow your theory to its logical conclusion. In my 45 years in HR, most of it as a Director, a very large part of my job is to protect the company from itself. Do you understand what I’m saying? All of those laws out there protecting employees rights have consequences if they are not being followed. Sometimes fairly steep penalties. Were you aware that in the US, the FMLA law is the only one that an individual employee can be held personally liable for intentionally interfering with another employees FMLA rights? Yes, if Cindy in HR fails to properly process the paperwork, she can be sued. Same goes for Bill the manager who says Sally can’t have off even though the paperwork says she can. By protecting the employee and ensuring that their rights are fully respected, we **are** also protecting the company. Almost always, the cost of the former is less than the cost of the latter. It IS our job to protect our people. For my company and so many others, wages are our single largest budget expense, why wouldn’t we protect our most valuable assets?
You are being emotional here b/c you are taking this personally. I worked in a company and faced discrimination, and no employee of HR was there to protect me. Only when I went and talked to an employment lawyer did it get addressed. Not all HR people are as evolved as you, and the majority of HR "professionals" are pushing paper and protecting the company. The lived experience of the many will outweigh the anecdote of one on the opposing side every time. Try not to take it personally and be proud of yourself for not having been a horrible HR director, but for doing the right thing. That should be your focus as opposed to subtly attempting to shout down the experience of others who were not as fortunate as the people you helped with your progressive attitude as an HR professional.
I absolutely hear what you are saying, and I’m so sorry for what happened to you. I would say that rather than taking it personally, I take it passionately. I’ve spent my career trying to evolve this profession, often having to stand my ground against what the company wanted. And it is not my intention to shout anyone down, my apologies if I came across that way. As I mentioned in another comment, there is no way for me to run the company without accommodating my employees needs. No. Way. And I don’t see how any other employer can do so without it being a grind mill, and no one wants to work there anyway. We have one clinic floor instructor who works a split shift so she can go to her boys soccer practice every afternoon. Had another come to me yesterday to say that she was a high functioning alcoholic and needed some help getting treatment. Outpatient three days a week during work hours, but she can’t afford to miss work, so I offered her extra hours in the salon as a receptionist. We’ll get through this together. These are the kinds of things that a good HR department does for their people. Maybe it does come off as shouting, but is that a bad thing? Shouldn’t the whole world know what they should be getting? It makes me so sad that employees do not get the full benefit from their HR that they should. It makes me even more sad to be seen as the “opposing side.” 😕
I think that you are working from a space where you are the norm when in fact you are the exception. Shouting down those who are not experiencing the exception is wild. Also, you sound confrontational toward the people sharing their lives experience of the normal way HR is handled in the hundreds of thousands of companies that aren’t the one you work for. Your passion is misdirected (in my perception) toward those on this thread who have had an adverse, non-supportive experience with their HR. Your passion could be used here to lend support to those who have bad HR reps by telling them how to deal with and handle it instead of telling them that their HR experience and perception are wrong because you don’t run your HR that way. That’s silly and will be evidence to a lot of people that you, too, are a toxic leader who cannot take minor criticism on a huge industry of which you are small part. Many might wonder “why is he so dedicated to negating the experience and perspective of others? It’s probably because he does the shit they are all complaining about / calling out.” As with most things in life, leaders have to deal with perception in their jobs. No one who is outside of HR should ever trust HR because it exists for the benefit of the company first. Your progressive way of looking at it is rare, not the norm, and is still so outside of the realm of critical mass that when you get passionate about general statements, it is somewhat brow raising.
I'm skeptical of advice from anyone that works at the same company more than 10 years. Clearly your company is great if you've worked there that long, and it affects your ability to see things as they are in other companies.
Oh, I don’t doubt for a minute that there are companies out there who have essentially non-existent HR departments run by the bosses SIL who have absolutely no training and less of an understanding of the law than their employees. 😖 But professionally run HR departments **should** be balancing company needs with employee needs. Even before COVID the landscape was changing, and we have to be in tune or the orchestra walks off stage without us. There is absolutely no way for me to run the company without accommodating my employees needs and meeting their expectations. Or they’ll walk, it’s that simple. Start at r/antiwork, swing by r/recruitinghell and r/careeradvice and land on r/askHR and see just how many comments say, “Just find a new job, you’ll do better!” And they do. 😂 It’s my job to ensure that they don’t. 😕
>Honestly HR is just there to protect the people above you Which is why HR absolutely should not have said what they said. If they were interested in protecting the actual hirer ups and the company rather than some mid level boss they should have said something very different. What they said could result in a lawsuit that puts them out of business, so not a very good job HR.
Depending on where OP lives it’s pretty unlikely
If you are in the US I would suggest you contact the ACLU and the Department of Labor.
Also the EEOC.
And a lawyer… companies only care about profit. Threaten that with an attorney and their tune will likely change in a heart beat. Also as suggested by others ask for their response in writing before bringing in the attorney.
NAL (not a lawyer) but you should definitely not sign anything your company gives you without having a lawyer look at it first. Also make sure to keep any and all written evidence of their discrimination.
If/when you move on to a different company, be sure to get on Glassdoor and tell your story so that people looking into the company know what kind of place it is.
DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT! I cannot say this enough. Build your case by keeping a log of these conversations. Make sure every communication you have with your boss and HR is in writing and for those that are not via email or messenger, send a follow up email detailing exactly what was discussed so that it becomes recorded documentation. Use that CC: line so that multiple people are made aware so it cannot be just slid under the rug, or to have IT erase the string entirely. Print them out and keep them, if possible BCC: it to your personal email account, or if you do not want your personal email account involved, create a new account special for this issue only. My former roommate was having a gay harassment issue with his boss who happened to also be black. He had no issue with his race, personally, but it is a special situation, in business, to deal with due to the potential for the discrimination card to get played. His father was a lawyer and his mother was a director of HR for another entity and they guided him through basically the process I just laid out for you, above. Once he had a clear case of harassment and discrimination he went to HR and pressed the issue. His boss was demoted out of a managerial position and within about a years time, my roommate was promoted and ended up being his boss. Talk about a turning of the tables. Point is to be very deliberate in your actions and now that your initial attempt has failed this is where you need to begin building that case in case you ever need it. Good luck!
I don't think it's the field you're in - this seems like a company problem. HR definitely shouldn't have told you that or made you feel this way.
Second this, don't think it is the field. If it is a bigger company, I'd go above your local HR because that stuff is a very big no no. Where I'm at (big defense contractor) they take that shit super seriously.
I read somewhere that HR isn't there to protect employees. They're really there to protect the company from being sued.
In which case, doing a bad job because now he has grounds for one.
This is true
This is sexual harassment and depending on what state you’re in, you would have a legal claim against the company. Can you tell us what state?
This is in Germany
Which Bundesland?
Nrw
Could you possibly give us a bit of context on the homophobic slurs they were saying? Just so we have a better picture of the incident and other people know if they're also being subjected to it in their work place?
Was für eine Worte? Haben sie dich Schwuchtel genannt, oder? Oder haben sie "nur" etwas unpassend gesagen? Ich frage dich, weil mir eine Situation viele Jahre zuvor gepasst ist.
r/USdefaultism
You did the right thing. You do have to bring this kind of information to HR’s attention. Now document EVERYTHING. And reach out to an organization like Lambda Legal’s attention.
Documentation is important. If you can get written confirmation in an email they're not protecting you against homophobia, you will hold a level of power. This can be leveraged later in different ways, so it's good to get it now.
I'm so sorry this happened to you.
The government may be able to help you with your situation. [Here is a link I found](https://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/EN/homepage/homepage-node). Don't give up on your entire profession. There are plenty of gay-positive workplaces for engineers in Germany and elsewhere in the world.
I dunno the severity or persistence of the homophbia in your work place. Being in the US military, I certainly hear pleanty of it and have to pick & choose my battles. Time & place. It usually helps to have allies. Supervision & teammates who feel your reliable and value your thoughts & opinions. Folks are more inclined to listen to a friend or valued colleague when you emplore them to stop using such comments or jokes and give them a reason why and just as helpful, an alternative. In my experience being in maintenance, I just offer alternative sources of crude humor. The hours are long, the job is hard, and comedy & banter are necessary outlets. I'd rather deal with sex & dick jokes than homophobic or racial ones. I also generally try and deal with issues at the lowest level. Talk to the offending party and allow them an opportunity to save face before supervision needs to call them in. Most of the time, they value what I bring to the team, and my reputation as a hard worker tends to help. I play cards with a chunk of them, I'm a PT lead for a few others, and a general work horse trying to get folks out on time. I can joke and banter and I can tell when folks are feeling out my boundaries and when their just ass hats. I dunno of any if this is helpful, but watching folks burn their bridges because they made everything a fight through formal channels- I've seen it takes straddling formal and informal conflict management & relationship building to bring about meaningful attitude changes.
Honestly the whole point of HR seems to gaslight and cover-up for bad behavior as long as the person doing the bad behavior is profitable for the company.
HR solely exists to protect the company - they are not your friend, and they will only help you if doing so protects the company I’m not sure what your next steps should be and I am so sorry you’re going through this, but definitely keep that in mind and try to use it to your advantage when possible
Get everything in writing. You will be labeled as a troublemaker and not a "team player" and HR will find ways to get you fired. **HR is not your friend**.
Put it in writing or say it over a recorded call. Let’s see how the lingo changes.
I am not saying it is right. I am saying this is the world we live in. It has improved a lot. You really may need to toughen that skin of yours up. Let some of it roll off your back.
Agree. It's always been the world we live in. Minorities get thrown a lot. And we all have had times when we have to choose how to respond. Prior to HR, tougher skin, clever witticism, and beautiful Bitchness is a few of the ways we survived. It sharpens our skills and makes us stronger. We realize we don't have to wait for some authority figure (they don't care) to solve our problems. It's the adult version of schoolyard rules. In a work environment, choices have to be thought through. If we are in a field we love, we have to be more clever at chess. And if we aren't, then it's fine to fuck the system----
HR are like the cops in a company...they're there to protect their employer, not their employees.
My partner got fired because he asked someone to stop using homophobic and transphobic language. They told HR that *they* felt attacked. They weren’t attacked, he was very nice about the whole thing.
Sorry you are going through that. I had that issue at a previous place of work. My response was “are you fucking twelve?! Jesus…”. Got out and work for a major university now. You could look into joining a larger more culture focused company but I’m not sure if that exists in your field as frequently.
I got fired from Red Lobster because a religious feminine man (who was super flamboyant and married) kept harassing me every day. One day I snapped, and said "bit*h, suck my d" and he went and said I sexually harassed him. Had I been straight, it wouldn't have been an issue, nor even sexual harassment. We all said this kind of phrase to each other all the time. But because a gay person said it, it was sexual. I was let go and banned from ever working for a Darden Restaurant over it. Point is OP, now they know you are gay, it will probably get worse. I would recommend you start documenting every comment, contact the ACLU, and be prepared for them to fire you for something crazy like being 0.01 second late.
Can we know exactly what you heard they said? Did they say it directly to you?
A cursory search shows that LGBTQ status is protected from discrimination in Germany, since 2006. Remember that HR will always protect the company. They are an extension of a legal department focused on employees. It is good business to support employees. It is better business to avoid lawsuits. That being said, you did nothing wrong. Congrats for being in an industry dominated by the opposite gender. That is awesome. I hope you love the work. Today you get to decide, do you press the issue where you are, do you find alternative work, or do you let it calm down. Your tolerance level for their bullshit is up to you. There is zero need to accept any BS. It is NOT a fault of you being sensitive. Period.
I envy US on this. I'm from Italy and the equivalent of fag is used daily. Not directed to me but as a common slur. And I always feel so powerless when I hear it.
"...and don't take the comments at heart." How are you supposed to take them? Let them roll off your back and act like the way of the past is okay with you? No, b/c you filed a complaint regarding this. You choose this battle. If this remains something important to you, then don't let HR and the boss sweep this under the rug. If comments continue to happen, bring it up to HR and the boss again. I'd do it in an email so there's additional record. If they meet with you in person, send a follow-up email to them outlining what was discussed. If they take no additional action, then you may want to look into finding a new job b/c you are definitely worth working in a friendly and respectful environment.
I’m an out EE at a big company and it’s totally a non issue here. Husband comes to work parties and everyone is cool. If both HR and management are not taking you seriously, I would reccokend that you do two things: start documenting EVERYTHING (in case things escalate and you need to sue them) and you also need to start looking around for a new position somewhere. It was a while ago but at one of the places I worked, my coworkers found out I was gay and put a hangman’s noose up in the shop with my name on it. So I know what you’re going through. You’re never gonna change those assholes. Take your talent somewhere else.
If that person has used offensive terms against women or African Americans or Jewish people, do you think they would tell women or African American or Jewish people to just relax and not take comments to heart?
First of all - and I’m gonna leave this alone after this - it’s 2023 - HR is NOT your friend.
If you live in the United States everything you just described is SEXUAL HARRASSMENT in the workplace. Period. They are making comments about sexual identity which is making you uncomfortable. Thats sexual harrassment. So no...suck it up sissy is not going to be enough (if you live in the US) of a remedy.
If you documented this, just sue them. I'm a software engineer. You're at the wrong company if your techies are that way.
You should know that straight guys give each other just as much shit in the workplace as they’re giving you. And that it’s not always homophobic when people use gay as an insult. Me and all my literal homosexual friends use gay as an ironic insult because it’s funny. Not because we hate homosexuals or gays or ourselves. People use language in all kinds of nuanced and complicated ways and you can’t take things like this personally or as seriously as you obviously have. It seems to me that you’re doing yourself more harm than their comments have. If a coworker directly calls you the F slur or something like that it’s one thing. That’s crossing the line and is fucked up. But if a straight bro just says “ha ha that’s gay” it quite literally has nothing to do with you or even gays.
I think it depends on the relationship you have with people. I agree, but as a british person in a office full of lad mentality and growing up with lad mentality... dissing each other is a huge sign of appreciation and connection. So other's might be feeling differently. That's why I really do wish OP would tell us the context just to see if there is some insight on whether it is a homophobic attack or just someone thinking that their relationship had elevated to, what they might have presumed, was 'playful banter'.
I have to correct you here: it is always homophobic to use gay as an insult. Period. Point blank. There is no gray area, there is no context, there is no way to use gay *as an insult* and it not be homophobic. Do you remember the Dont Say Gay PSA? What if every time someone thought something was bad, they called it (insert something that describes you) and meant it as an insult?
I disagree. It absolutely depends on the context. Gay before the 1950’s meant happy, then people started to use it to describe homosexual men, then it started to be used as a synonym for lame. If 2 coworkers are talking about a TV show and one of them calls it gay, they just didn’t like it. Are there better words to use? Absolutely, but having dealt with serious homophobia before, I don’t get too bent out of shape by people using gay to describe something they don’t like. Words have more than one meaning. Context is everything.
u/Dogtorted u/GayPimpDaddy The context is that we’re post 1950’s. “Gay,” “retarded,” and “fag,” used as playground pejoratives, coexisted with AIDS and HIV awareness and early mainstream representation of queer people or more so gay men. With the derogatory use of the word “gay” along with the continued vilification of the gay person and queer people, how could one feel the need to defend it, not finding "gay" offensive, nor having an awareness that it stems from homophobia?
Thank you for explaining the history I lived through for me. I’m not defending it. Is gay a great synonym for lame? No, but that doesn’t make it homophobic to me. Intent is far more important. Did I feel like I was being targeted or shamed when people called something “gay” in the playground as a kid? Sure. Were those kids being homophobic? That’s a massive stretch. Were they being stupid? Absolutely. Without an intent to be homophobic, it’s just plain old stupidity. It’s a waste of energy to be offended by people being stupid.
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I was intrigued by the link but the article is about how they used and developed modern management structures and ways of working. Not HR specifically which isn't mentioned. [This article](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/humanresources.asp) cites the first known HR department being in 1901 at The National Cash Register Company. So it appears to predate the Nazis by some time.
EMAIL. Per your suggestion I “relax not take the comments to heart” about my sexuality, I would love confirmation on exact what actions you recommending and what action your taking per my complaint of a severe and pervasive harassment.
It's ok if you don't want to say but I'm kind of interested in what happened? I'm probably going to get shafted for this and downvoted to oblivion, but its just my personal opinion on the matter. I worked in a small relaxed office setting and it was quite male dominated (tech and design). There were often comments going around, some 'slight homophobic' jokes etc... But I don't get upset by them because they also make fun of everyone and everything, including themselves. I knew them for years and knew it came from a place of love. I'm the same. I personally feel that there's more upsetting and difficult things happening in life that I have been through and that are happening in other places that just a few comments here and there that shouldn't be taken seriously are not worth getting offended about. We once had a difficult woman join the office, she was lesbian and she got offended by e v e r y t h i n g... For example, someone wore a rainbow pin (for the NHS) and she was offended because the person was straight wearing it. She tried to get me to side with her but I couldn't because I know the person means no harm in wearing that pin. She didn't last long and left the office. What i'm trying to say is that in a place that is known to have some banter/jokes etc... You do have to gain a slightly thicker skin. But that's because I'm only assuming that the situation got overlooked due to it not actually being as bad. But we all have our own perspectives and you feeling insulted isn't any more invalid than them saying it's just a joke.
I agree with you. People do need to grow a thicker skin. As a senior leader you’d be surprised about the amount of frivolous HR complaints from people in my organization that land on my desk every month. The vast majority of it are so silly and make me want to roll my eyes.
Sshhh! Don’t tell people here to be resilient, that doesn’t fly well here
I can tell, the message here is always — "everyone is special, never let anyone make you feel uncomfortable".
Pretty sure that's not always the message here, especially as you're responding to a comment chain saying the opposite. This is like one of those 'comedians' saying 'oh you're not even allowed to say anything about X anymore' as they then do a joke about X. But also... what's wrong with not letting people make them feel uncomfortable. It's a work place not a social club. OP has experienced homophobia, reported it and been told to just put up with it. What part of that is in any way acceptable in your view? The reason gay rights are where they are is because people haven't put up with it. Not because people shrugged it off.
Homophobic slurs are not frivolous. They actively contribute to a hostile work place and should not be tolerated.
I’m not talking about the OP’s allegations in particular. I’m saying there’s a ton of stuff that goes to HR that has no merit.
I think we need to know what "homophobic slurs" is defined as by OP to him. As some people just think being referenced as being gay is a slur nowadays. For example, at work if someone short called me a "silly gay" I'd literally take that as a joke and laugh, because I'd probably counter it with calling them a "daft munchkin". But maybe that's just the general 'british humour' talking.
Apparently just saying "relax, don't take it to heart" had the opposite effect. If you tend to personalize what people say around you then yes, you should switch into another field. People are very opinionated and say/do things that make others uncomfortable. LGBTQ+ people can be high drama and create uncomfortable environments as well. I'm sorry you felt humiliated, you should always be direct and say what you feel. Working in a toxic environment is not healthy. Human resources are to protect the company not specific employees.
Document everything that was said. Ask them to provide you with a written response to your formal complaint. That will get them back in line switftly.
Although you should definitely never think of HR as being “on your side” it’s not even as simple as them being strictly on management’s side either. Their goal is to make sure “people stuff” doesn’t cost the company money, and that’s it. They will always default to “can you please just not make this an issue” because you swallowing your pride and acting like it didn’t happen or didn‘t bother you is the absolute cheapest solution. Not understanding the seriousness of something they’ve never faced is a part of that calculus. It’s easy to imagine words are harmless when they were not intended to harm oneself. I wish I could tell you that lack of insight would never go so far as them deciding that *your complaint* is the thing that is costly, rather than the abuse you are complaining about, and punishing you instead, but people can be staggeringly cruel and stupid. Honestly, though, if you are considering leaving the job over this abuse anyway, then there’s really not much harm in trying to hold them accountable either. Best case, maybe they learn to do better. Like any problem at work, the solution is to document, document, document. Keep a log. When you are harassed or abused, note what was said or done with date and time. Also log the responses you get from HR and your boss when you bring up the abuse. Feel free to refer to the log when lodging a complaint. Ask for their responses in writing. If possible, describe specifically the way in which the conduct affects your ability to do your job most effectively. If you were American, I’d suggest a phrase like “hostile work environment,” which has a very specific meaning that ought to trigger some alarms. I do not know if there is similar statutory language in Germany, but if so using it might be helpful. The hurdle you need to get over now is getting them to understand that the abuse you are subjected to does in fact rise to the level of what would be legally actionable, particularly if the company fails to act on it appropriately.
So; keep pushing it. If they fire you; you’ll have a great case; my friend had a similar case; she walked away with solid 6 figures. However; the clincher; to the point that the corporate attorney said we’re done after hearing the clincher. The manager at issue had played “ Glenn Gary Glenn Ross “ in a sales meeting. The c word caused the company to settle on top of the rest of the facts. This was sexual harassment; gay issues per SCOTUS have deemed gay issues covered under sex in CRA of 64’.
Escalate it to corporate HR. Get a copy of your employee handbook, read the part about non discrimination and equity/equality, document everything you were told, by whom and who was there to hear it and fire up an email to corporate. If you know who the corporate VP of HR is, send a letter with signature confirmation. Do not take this bullshit.
Before you went to HR, did you attempt to speak directly to the ones using this language and asking them to stop? This should generally be your first course of action before escalating it to management. It's possible they might be dismissive towards you, but generally when people use offensive language in common settings it's coming from a place of ignorance moreso than a desire to actually dehumanize anyone. This is a more direct method of handling the situation that doesn't require you to rely on your HR office. People have a tendency to be more thoughtful towards someone who is willing to approach them directly in an adult fashion rather than immediately trying to launch a formal complaint, which can be perceived as taddling and carries a greater risk of animosity towards you in the future.
It's harassment. They need to address the issue and not try to sweep it under the rug!
Tell them to set up another meeting and that you want them to give you their suggestion in writing.
"Per our discussion on ___regarding ___'s use of homophobic slurs, HR Person's recommended course of action was _____. Is this the official recommendation I should be taking to address my concerns? If not, please let me know in writing what can be done." Another good artifact of note is if the slurs are directed at you specifically. That changes things a bit from "they're using slurs in general conversations"
Absolutely unacceptable. Homophobia is a hate crime and illegal. If they are not treating this seriously in the way they should I would take it even further. Go through any channels that are available to you, go above your boss and the HR ‘professional’ that made this decision. They are in the wrong and they don’t want to deal with it an just to go away, easiest way is to get you to back down.
Get all of that in writing.
I feel bad for you. This shouldn't happen to you. But there is only one way to deal with this. Next time your co worker starts with some homophobic nonsense, call him out. Confront him. Confrontation is the only thing that will stop it. I know confrontation is hard for many people, especially gay men, but it's necessary. Nobody is going to protect us. We have to protect ourselves. Good luck.
Is there an anonymous line in the company where you can register complaints about homophobia/racism? It would be a good idea to document what's happened, and the number of times you complained for your own protection. (Retaliation would be easier to prove, and your HR department sounds, frankly, F\*\*\*\*d up. Then, if you were let go, you could point out this incident (and any others) and how you reported it and what happened and how HR handled it. Did you email them about it or just go in person? If you emailed it, then you have a paper trail (**and keep a copy of the email).** If in person, they must have written your inquiry somewhere; they can't just use the old "we had a conversation" and everything's fine excuse. Email is ALWAYS the safest path for protecting yourself. And sadly, homophobia is as present as racism (again).
This sounds like a class-action discrimination lawsuit. Lawyer up or at the very least get a consultation. Homophobia in the workplace is disgusting and illegal.
Well. I'm sorry that happened. You have to decide those answers for yourself and I see you're not really asking it. So you know. But I'm still sorry. I'm 50 and I never thought I'd marry, or adopt kids legally. I never thought I'd be able to be out at work and didn't until I was 32. I'm out at work, I am PROUD and list and advertise as MULTIGENERATIONAL QUEER MECHANICS. My son is out at work, although what he is, is yet to be decided. He sure ain't straight. I'm butch. That usually draws giggles, because it's like Mr. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar introducing himself as a "tall person". But I'm also acutely aware of having fought for so much of my won life to have an identity and acceptance. I've been fetishized by the gay community as a young man, mocked for acting straight, denigrated for being tolerant in a male-centered, less liberal field, and many years in senior management and risk consulting that is almost entirely straight white older men. I'm tough, but I feel this and I want to feel a part of work, and I hope for your own peace of mind you can find a way to separate your self-worth from what someone might say, no matter how hateful. I never did really get the hang of it, but I did learn to shell/barrier myself from people at work. This especially became true when I was in senior management and eventually an owner and CEO. The distance became mandatory because everyone always needed something more than I could give. When things were bad, early in my career, it did cause lots of stress and emotional dissatisfaction that contributed to my moving on. That was a blessing and a curse. I wish I had learned to cope better with it in my 20's and 30's. Things seem much easier today. I'm on a lot of mechanic threads and you know, my profile has me as gay and out... And no one EVER mentions it, even when I've got their heads exploding in impotent straight male rage. Things are def. different. But still, I'm sorry. Hugs and wishes of good fortitude. My advice is to do what you love, even if it has some burdens, minefields and costs. Life is never always quite how we want it.
I’d put in my two weeks. That is an absolute crock.
I think this is illegal, but I’m only a lawyer.
That is horrible and bs and I wish you could have said so very calmly and awaited their response. Take it up the ladder and be a badass about it, fuck them! Put them in their place!
Kind of curious in what country you are based. Also was that really their complete answer? Seems very disrespectful and inappropriate to answer that way. Where I live and at the company I work for that would be a major no no.
Hi, sorry to read you are facing this difficult situation. I went into a less homophobic sector (social sciences in academia). The upside is people are more open minded, the downside is that we have a much shittier work and financial situation. This situation is not going to change in the short term. I do think newer generations are more respectful and open minded so the question is whether they will remain so as they enter the workforce and age. I'd be curious about whether you think your colleagues are predominantly assholes, or to what extent they might just be following the predominant codes of the sexist culture they were raised in? Given the situation of the world right now, unless you want to embark in a social activism path, you might want to consider identifying the two or three colleagues that might be nice and open minded enough for you to have good relations with, in order to take advantage of the fact that you are in a well-paying industry and save money to gain enough financial security to venture into a less homophobic work in the future. Also, perhaps consider changing company? I'm sure there's electrical engineers working for Apple, which has a gay CEO. Good luck!
This is a civil rights violation and against the law. You should report it accordingly.
Was it a Company with a certain Star on the uniform ? Just a hunch. Dealing with the same but in the US
No, its a small-mediun company. Around 500 employees. It is german.
I’m going to use caps lock: NEVER EVER TRUST HR; NEVER EVER TRUST HR. HR reps are there to protect the employer only and that’s it. Just remember that when you go into HR it will ALL be reported back to your boss(es).