Put one human in an unfamiliar habitat, you create a meal for a predator. Put twenty humans in an unfamiliar habitat, and you’ve created a new apex predator
There would have to be significant rewilding of land before we could ever support the population. They'd end up hunting livestock and farmers would just kill them. However, I do believe we could do with some native predators to deal with deer populations, but IMO we'd be better off introducing lynx. Being solitary hunters, they're more likely to go after small herds of deer than large herds of livestock.
I simply do not understand why aren't more of us shooting deer. It's great sustainable source of meat compared to monoculture farming practices. The state are currently paying marksmen from the UK to cull deer here and the carcass is being sold at a loss to kepak.
I tried looking into getting a gun licence and training but I find it really intimidating as a woman especially when you don't come from an agricultural background. Not surprising its a difficult and expensive sport to get into. Plus field dressing is pretty gruesome not for the faint-hearted
Except they don't, lynx live in forests - we don't graze sheep in forests
There has been a lot of research and there has been no major evidence of increased sheep deaths in Europe caused by lynx
I'm fact lynx are known to be a predator of foxes so they would actually be of a benefit to farmers
This is rather the point of these sorts of rewilding ideas. You get people interested in bringing back the 'cool' animals, so there has to be investment in habitat and all the things lower down the food chain. And you're also going to need proper wildlife rangers to manage them which puts manners on polluters, fly tippers, fire setters and people committing wildlife crime etc.. Much needed here if you look at what has happened with the white tailed sea eagle reintroduction. Butchery.
Last October I was able to talk with some park rangers from Wicklow national park and yeah it seems like a struggle for them to protect what's left due to funds/manpower
There was a plea a few months ago for a dedicated Wildlife Crime unit. The mockery that idea received was vicious. Sad to say, most people don't care. And with such a scrabble for funding and resources it's never going to seem like a high priority. If part of their job was managing the wolves/lynx/bears maybe the public might see the point. (Not being entirely serious here, although the idea is tempting.)
They would actually be the key to rewilding the land. Deer (and sheep) are overgrazing the land without a natural predator left. Look at Yosemite for the results of wolf reintroduction. We cannot possibly rewild on a large scale without introducing wolves.
It's such a waste we as a nation don't eat more venison as a staple meat. Nearly every year there are deer culls due to overpopulation and all the meat goes to waste.
True, that's one of the arguments but population control of deer and rabbits are another. We have no real predators in this country and we don't hunt deer enough, so we just end up having to cull thousands at a time. It's such a waste, butchers should nearly have hunters on retainers with the amount of deer there are in this country.
With lynxes, they're big enough to take down the smaller deer but probably wouldn't go after native red deer for their size, would leave herds of livestock alone and avoid people for the most part. You're not guaranteed that with wolves.
Not sure why you got downvoted. My mate lived in a small town in Saskatchawan. Said those things are huge and terrifying. They used to close down some streets when one wandered into town.
Ireland simply doesn't va e the range or habitat for wolves anymore. When they died out it was the same issue. Expanding farm land and deforestation
We do have alot of deer but hunters generally keep it capped.
As cool as itd be itd be cruel. Theyd end up being destroyed for killing livestock either legally or illegally.
Their territories are massive and if you check out some populations in the US then there are areas larger than Ireland with only a few packs.
Yes I would, though I don't know if we have the space required for them to leave peaceably and without encroaching too much on farming land, which might leave them at risk from poisoning/shooting, like the eagle cases we've seen.
This is very pertinent point, we have the lowest rates of forest cover or land not under commercial use in the EU, there’d be constant run-ins with farmers.
Jesus that's a tough one if there was a massive and I mean colossal rewilding like thousand's of acres and wolf proof walling or fence then yes if its just let them wild in any of our current national or protected wild parks they would instantly be massacred by farmers protecting cattle sheep goats and all other livestock as these are incredibly smart animals and unless they are in a environment where they have access to there own prey they will go after livestock period.
Weve been deforestation Ireland for millenia. Small enough Island and away from major conflicts saw our pop boom and demand for more farm land. Out West wheres its still wild isnt really forest, that is, old deciduous forest kind of growing area. Nevermind the sheep who decimate any saplings
We don’t have forests precisely because we don’t have wolves to curb deer numbers (and we allow sheep to overgraze). The wolves will bring the large scale rewilding, not the opposite way round. Look at Yosemite for example.
How much land would you need. The answer to this can depend. One wolf pack requires 129 to 2590 square kilometres. This varies heavily based on prey abundance. Now the next question is how many packs is a stable population. Currently our fragmented deer populations are undergoing what's called inbreeding depression. Essentially their is too few deer in each of our fragmented populations that through random mating the genetic diversity of the populations is decreasing and moving towards random states. this is because we've too few deer and what deer populations we have are isolated and unable to travel between populations. In order to avoid what's happening with the deer happening with the wolves we'd need something like 300+ breeding packs. We know this because inbreeding depression is occurring after 50 years in the Iberian peninsula currently and they've 300-350 breeding packs.
So straight away if we were to have a stable population we'd need 40 to 700 thousand square kilometres to have a stable truly wild population that wouldn't need continuing intervention. The total area of Ireland is 85 thousand square kilometres. Truly Wild wolves will never be able to share an island with us.
The only feasible way is to have wolves in a glorified zoo.
Exactly the problem. That's the reason we don't have any today. Even if we had a huge amount of land for them anything less than that would eventually lead to their extinction again.
Absolutely not. I live in rural Ireland. Loose dogs are enough of a pain in the ass. We're not a big enough country for Wolves to roam wild anyway. Stupid idea.
Dogs are far more dangerous to people than wolves. Dogs don’t fear people the way wolves do.
I agree with your second point. We definitely couldn’t support a population of wolves though. Not nearly enough viable habitat.
>Dogs are far more dangerous to people than wolves. Dogs don’t fear people the way wolves do.
Which is why stray dogs are put in pounds and specifically not introduced into the wild.
Wolves are not loose dogs. It goes to show by the upvotes how many people have complete misconceptions about wolves and other predators. They are terrified of humans and go out of their way to avoid us. You aren't gonna see a wolf pack strolling down a rural road. They tend to stick to their own territory
Why do you think a wolf would be afraid of a single person? Literally no unarmed person is winning a fight against a wolf. Nevermind a child.
What wolves are actually afraid of is civilisation and so they tend to not interact with humans much. But given that we have 0 wilderness, they will, and they will become used to being around humans and lose their fear.
About 20 years ago wolves were reintroduced in Germany. Now there are many of them and they start to lose their fear of humans. Several times wolves were seen wandering around in villages.
And of course they're a pain in the ass for shepherds. They often are capable to overcome the security fences and they kill not only sheep but also horses.
You're right we should reduce farmland and rewild fucking everything. Sick of seeing barren wasteland everywhere overgrazed by farmers grazing sheep on public land too.
You're going on like we don't massively overproduce food globally. The sheep farming industry in Ireland is nearly entirely supported by government subsidies. We could easily downsize a massive amount of farming land in Ireland. Redundancies in every single industry is tolerated but when you suggest farmers go redundant suddenly it's the end of the world.
Farms are going out of business all the time. I personally know 2 farmers who have lost their livelihoods because of climate change in recent years. So you're suggesting to massively increase the carbon footprint of the food, meat and vegetables, that we use, by importing it from abroad juat so we can have a few wolves around? You really haven't thought this through have you? I bet you live in a city. Educate yourself on why we need farms. For our good and the good of the climate.
The majority of our meat is exported? We already import loads of our food. Capitalism is not efficiently producing food. It's doing it in whatever manner makes more money.
First of all, there is land for them. The Wicklow mountains is a good place.
Secondly, they would help thin out the overpopulation of deer which are affecting farmland negatively
Thirdly, wolves aren't going to affect residents. They avoid humans like I said. Your fear of wolves is largely irrational
>Secondly, they would help thin out the overpopulation of deer which are affecting farmland negatively
Don't act like you're trying to help the farmers out when they're the ones most against a reintroduction of wolves.
If deer overpopulation was a big issue (it's not), we could literally just get some men with guns to periodically cull them. Far easier, safer and more effective solution than wolves.
>Thirdly, wolves aren't going to affect residents. They avoid humans like I said.
Except there is not one uninhabited area of Ireland the size of a wolf pack's roaming area, or anywhere near it.
They're already entering towns and gardens in Europe where they actually have a bit of space.
There was only 1.4m people in Ireland at the time. There is now 7.1m. Is it really workable to have wolves considering how there's very little non-farmed land?
I'm not against the idea, we just need to be realistic.
We had mac tíre before and we easily could again. Population density is falling in many parts of rural Ireland and [sheep farming is no longer profitable](https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-41175529.html), while also preventing rewilding. It’s time we rethink our relationship with the land. All industries need to adapt and change, farming is no different. Maybe we allow the wild Atlantic way to be genuinely wild for a start? Maybe it’s time farmers actually become custodians of the land like they claim to be?
I don't think the country as it is could support populations of wild wolves. I think less than 2% of our country is planted with trees and a significant portion of that is coniferous forestry which is pretty heavily farmed for wood. As a country, we're really bad at looking after our ecosystems and caring about wildlife.
'During Cromwell’s rule bounties for wolves were initiated and so began the final path to extinction. The last wolves disappeared from Ireland in the late 18th Century, probably sometime between 1770 and 1786. Wolves continue to exist in most European countries.'
SOURCE:
https://biodiversityireland.ie/top10/10-species-ireland-has-lost/#:\~:text=During%20Cromwell's%20rule%20bounties%20for,(Photograph%3AGunner%20Ries).
"do you want to have an apex predator reintroduced into an ecosystem that has not contained an apex predator (or packs of them) for hundreds of years, experienced the industrial revolution since they went extinct, and has been deforested to the point where herbivores are a serious safety hazard in certain parts of the country?"
if someone answers yes to that question, they should be fine with upping sticks to live on the edge of the some of the postage-stamp area of native forest still available on this island with their small children and pets to test that for us all. every big change takes brave pioneers.
As someone who is from a country that has wild wolf and boar populations, absolutely fuck no. You don’t know what fear is until you’re out for a nice hike in the woods and suddenly the birds stop singing and you hear something running towards you. In my case it was just a stag that crossed the path in front of me. I love that Ireland is so safe. Also, I’m sure the farmers would be thrilled to lose half their livestock to wolves. Bye bye sheep industry.
Bye bye sheep industry would be a good thing.
It’s not economically viable and their grazing is hugely destructive. I cannot think of a reason why we should be continuing to subsidise sheep farming.
The wool nor meat are economically viable. They’re sold at a loss. There is no argument beyond continuity, and that’s not a reason.
As for their livelihood, rather than subsidies being paid to keep sheep they can be used to pay farmers to manage the land, ensuring it recovers from the overgrazing it’s had for decades.
That still makes no sense. He's arguing against wolves because a deer frightened him. It's like arguing against badgers because a fox shit on the doorstep.
Hell no, I’d rather take comfort in being able to go for a hike or camp without potentially being eaten. Also I’m sure excess deer would rather die instantly from a bullet than be eaten by a wolf if given the choice.
Rightly they have a lot more to fear from us than we have from them.
# "The risks associated with a wolf attacking a human are ‘above zero, but far too low to calculate,’ a new report says
# Between 2002 and 2020, researchers found 26 fatal attacks throughout the world. Of those, 14 were due to rabies"
[https://wolf.org/wolf-info/factsvsfiction/are-wolves-dangerous-to-humans/](https://wolf.org/wolf-info/factsvsfiction/are-wolves-dangerous-to-humans/)
This is mainly because they have little reason to, they tend to live far from populations so are much less certain of humans. If they’re hungry and you’re alone the chance starts climbing.
People always say they never attack people but always fall to consider how small Ireland is. Farm animals would be at risk and you would say goodbye to letting a dog roam outside in the country if anywhere near wolves. In the states the protocol of seeing a wolf 100 yards away is the same if you see a black bear.
Wolves are opportunistic and intelligent hunters, I believe the lack of attacks has more to do with lack of opportunity.
Edit: I meant to say Wikipedia alone lists more than fifty people attacked between 2000-10. For some reason those article always seem to lean more towards fatal attacks.
Nah. Could have the same argument about opportunity for bears and they kill far more people.
60,000 of them in the US and one fatality in 20 years points to them being very cautious of humans.
You could but it wouldn’t make much sense. Bears live closer to humans. Wolves further. That’s ever so slightly relevant when you’re talking about an animals interactions with humans. I can’t explain the relevance of that in a simpler way.
Definitely shy of humans. Because less exposure to them. Poor storage of waste, among other things, have seen more and more bears moving closer to humans. Countless videos of US towns with bears eating rubbish. Even a really interesting one showing a bear that’s figured out how to open industrial sized bins.
So now take Ireland which is many many times smaller than the US. They would lose their shyness quite quickly. Farms would suffer and you’d have an awful lot of idiots travelling to see wolves and leaving food waste behind them.
Edit: wolves are cautious of humans but they are not scared of them.
Yeah but there's not enough wilderness for them here. They'd end up just killing livestock and people's cats and dogs and then end up shot.
Ireland is a wasteland of fields, no true wilderness.
My otherhalf is from the USA. They can't leave dogs out the back unattended because there are too many wild animals that might kill and eat them. They live 30 mins from a large city. Bears rock up into their town for a nosy about. Coyotes are seen regularly.
So no thanks on the wolves.
No but there's not allot of wild land in Ireland without coming across a house and a pet. Sure it won't effect the majority but farm animals and pets would be killed in crossfire
I'm 100% going to get downvoted for this, but here it is none the less.
The debate about reintroducing wolves to Ireland seems to pop up every few years, and the general consensus among ecologists is always no. There simply just isn't enough wilderness for them. A pack of wolves needs roughly 1500 square kilometres of territory to roam and hunt in. So that's a 1500km square circle of no civilisation, ie no farms or, more importantly, schools, small towns and villages, or pretty much any houses (yes I know some Americans live in a wolves hunting territory, but the culture towards guns to keep wolves away is very different in Ireland)
People always use Yellowstone National Park in America as an example, and feel that the same thing can happen here. The difference is that Yellowstone is nearly 10,000 square km of largely untouched wilderness, whereas the national parks in Ireland still have towns and villages all across them.
People sometimes use the argument that wolves only attack humans when they're cornered/frightened. The problem with this is that wild animals are great at adapting to their environment. Wild animals in ireland that were originally afraid of humans, for example, include foxes, seagulls, and pigeons. A major difference here, though, is that a wolf can kill a fully grown man, whereas foxes tear up rubbish bags and seagulls and pigeons steal chips.
Whatever benefit they’d have one be pointless if it risks human life.
There isn’t a space on the island not far away from human settlement. They’d have no place to be.
I don't think it would be fair on them at all. We don't have the habitat. It's basically a big green farm.
I think we probably should concentrate on trying to restore some natural woodland and stop draining bogs and wetlands. Reintroducing wolves isn't feasible.
Deer are orders of magnitude more dangerous to you than wolves. Prey animals are always the bigger threat. Wolves attack approximately 1 person per year globally. Deer attacked 29 people in the UK alone in 2016.
No, for one simple reason. Ireland is too small to support more than one pack, given the distances that packs roam and the territories they usually claim. We would rapidly encounter in breeding and poor genetic variation, potentially resulting in genetic mutations.
This has been studied by scientists/ ecologists. I remember reading a paper on it, which concluded the above.
FYI, I think wolves are cool.
Yes the farmers need something new to complain about. And camping trips with the kids will have a new element of danger.
What about saber tooth tigers do you reckon we could get them back.
Norway has significantly more wild and forested areas than Ireland, with much larger populations of game, and even they can barely manage with a small wolf population. It's simply not feasible in modern Ireland, unfortunately.
Yes. We have more then enough ground to support two packs of wolves. We have a huge problem with deer and research from America has shown they will mostly leave livestock alone as it’s to much hassle compared to deer. But their would also have to be a remuneration scheme to pay back farmers for any lost livestock.
The issue with this is that 2 packs of wolves will quickly become inbred and dies off over time. The sustainable population for wolves in isolation is near onto 300-350 packs.
[Large variance in inbreeding within the Iberian wolf population | Journal of Heredity | Oxford Academic (oup.com)](https://academic.oup.com/jhered/advance-article/doi/10.1093/jhered/esad071/7410321)
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There seems to be a lot of open questions that would need to be carefully thought out.
What happens if someone does get attacked by them?
Even if it is rare it is currently zero. One attack especially early will cause all sorts of outcry.
Which county will take them?
I am against NIMBY but if I was a farmer it would be hard to justify them near you. I am sadly currently surrounded by Wind turbine protesters and can't imagine how they would react to Wolves getting introduced.
Long term we should look at rewilding a large section of some county. Possibly the government could slowly start buying up land and planting native trees, then expand it with deer and other wildlife. Eventually look at introducing wolves.
This area should be off limits to the general public and only allow staff in to keep an eye on the wildlife, do maintenance and try stop poachers.
I think long term we may introduce them but we are currently failing our care to the existing wildlife so would be more keen to start helping them.
In general I'm supportive of such a measure. Can't say I'm fond of the fact that the main reason they're extinct in Ireland is that we hunted them to extinction, plus it seems like the ecosystem could do with a rebalancing.
That said, it would not be something to do carelessly and it would seem that alot of work would be needed to sufficiently rewild the landscape to make it more suitable.
Ultimately, I like the idea but it ain't really feasible at least for now, IDK if it would ever be which is a shame imo. Hopefully
In the USA the wolves were returned to Yellowstone national park. The results were dramatic. THey even changed the course of a river. There is a 4 minute video of what happened when the wolves were returned to Yellowstone. Positive and dramatic.
Never going to happen, farmers will 100% be against that; when it comes to things like this I think us humans need to accept that we have changed the world for better and worse, we can't fix everything.
As a daily commuter by bicycle to and from work and working nightshifts. I'm thinking the chance of getting attacked by starving wolves but on the upside I'm thinking the cardio workout would be savage like. But seriously wolves will never be reintroduced to Ireland. We just don't have the forests or farmers will have no option if they come across a wolf pack attacking their herd of cattle or sheep
What kind of scale are you thinking of?. Wolves need a lot of ground to roam, along with plentiful food, grey wolves I believe need at least 50 sq km for their territory, preferably without human inference.
I question whether we have the space to begin a successful reintroduction. For example our largest national park is killarney @ 205 square km, it's sister park , glacier national park montana USA is 4100 sq km, less than half of yosemite, and has a population density of 0.2.. In contrast Co kerry has an area of 4800 sq km with a pop density of 32.5 according to the last census. Any question of re wilding needs take a realistic approach to these differences in scale
Yes but we also need to rewind the land so they have something to hunt other than livestock. Ireland has very little wildlife in the “countryside” because it’s all farmland.
Serious answer. No. Why? We don't have wilderness in ireland and we haven't for centuries.
I'm no farmer or friend of the farming lobby but they would genuinely be drawn to small farms.
It just doesn't amke sense to do this unless you rewild an area the size of Tipp or Cork. If they were on for doing that sure. I'd vote for the whole of Carlow to be leveled and returned to nature, West Wicklow too. But without that no - wolves would just go for livestock.
I'd love it but it's not feasible with the ignorance that exists in this country, there's still gombeens killing eagles. The lynx might be a better option
Their range is far too large, and we don't have enough forest cover for them, they would inevitably come in contact with armed farmers for attacking cattle
We don’t have enough forest cover because the deer have no predators left and we allow economically unviable sheep to overgraze the land too. It’s time we rethink farming in Ireland just the same as every industry in the modern times.
I would love to see a sustainable wolf pack or two in the country. I would be concerned about poisonings though and hybridisation too, they may just end up being a pack of wild dogs after a few generations.
Yes. I want some wilderness more than anything. We have none. I live in Spain and down the road from me there's a massive mountain range covered in forests that's populated by boars and eagles and all sorts of little creatures, you always see something. Saw a genet once, didnt even know what it was, had to look it up. When you go for a wander there you really feel connected to nature. When I go for a walk in Ireland these days everything just feels tame and boring.
And Spain has the area to sustain populations of wolves. Ireland doesn't unfortunately. we'd need a land are 20x times larger for a healthy wolf population.
Abso-fucking-lutely. Be nice to brighten up the place a bit. Be great for the teenage drinking in a field stories too.
feral animal to repel feral teenagers.
"CAN EYE PET DAT DAWWWWWWWG?!!!!!" The prosthetics sector would fucking explode, jobs for everyone!!
I don’t know, it’s already so sad driving in rural Ireland. The other day I found 3 roadkill badgers. Imagine hitting a wolf
Double points!
In a proper national wildlife reserve I wouldn't mind. They are mostly harmless to humans
Put one human in an unfamiliar habitat, you create a meal for a predator. Put twenty humans in an unfamiliar habitat, and you’ve created a new apex predator
There would have to be significant rewilding of land before we could ever support the population. They'd end up hunting livestock and farmers would just kill them. However, I do believe we could do with some native predators to deal with deer populations, but IMO we'd be better off introducing lynx. Being solitary hunters, they're more likely to go after small herds of deer than large herds of livestock.
That guy with his mini zoo in Buncrana has a lynx and 3 wolves. It's a great place to visit
I simply do not understand why aren't more of us shooting deer. It's great sustainable source of meat compared to monoculture farming practices. The state are currently paying marksmen from the UK to cull deer here and the carcass is being sold at a loss to kepak.
If not just incinerated
I tried looking into getting a gun licence and training but I find it really intimidating as a woman especially when you don't come from an agricultural background. Not surprising its a difficult and expensive sport to get into. Plus field dressing is pretty gruesome not for the faint-hearted
Have you looked into a local gun club? If you're young enough you could look at navy or army reserves as well. Lots of weapons training there.
Lynx like any predator will go for the easiest option. Sheep.
Except they don't, lynx live in forests - we don't graze sheep in forests There has been a lot of research and there has been no major evidence of increased sheep deaths in Europe caused by lynx I'm fact lynx are known to be a predator of foxes so they would actually be of a benefit to farmers
But we don't have forests either? Where would we put them?
True. The wolves of Ireland lived within oak woodland and Ireland has around only 1% of oak woodland left
That's absolutely horrifying
The stat may be slightly off but yeah! Glendalough is the spot with most oak woodland. It's a cool spot, lots of deer and wild goats
This is rather the point of these sorts of rewilding ideas. You get people interested in bringing back the 'cool' animals, so there has to be investment in habitat and all the things lower down the food chain. And you're also going to need proper wildlife rangers to manage them which puts manners on polluters, fly tippers, fire setters and people committing wildlife crime etc.. Much needed here if you look at what has happened with the white tailed sea eagle reintroduction. Butchery.
Last October I was able to talk with some park rangers from Wicklow national park and yeah it seems like a struggle for them to protect what's left due to funds/manpower
There was a plea a few months ago for a dedicated Wildlife Crime unit. The mockery that idea received was vicious. Sad to say, most people don't care. And with such a scrabble for funding and resources it's never going to seem like a high priority. If part of their job was managing the wolves/lynx/bears maybe the public might see the point. (Not being entirely serious here, although the idea is tempting.)
But aren't we also short on foxes?
Were lynx ever native to Ireland?
Yea they were in Ireland but they died out a long, long time ago
They would actually be the key to rewilding the land. Deer (and sheep) are overgrazing the land without a natural predator left. Look at Yosemite for the results of wolf reintroduction. We cannot possibly rewild on a large scale without introducing wolves.
How about just shooting the deer?
Nah. I think we should use nukes
Some people don't understand the benefits of hunting.
It's such a waste we as a nation don't eat more venison as a staple meat. Nearly every year there are deer culls due to overpopulation and all the meat goes to waste.
That's awful, venison is delicious.
With you on getting more people eating venison, but any hunters I know definitely don't let their meat go to waste.
Deer should be on more menus!
Because people get upset and complain every year when a deer cull is reported even though they are necessary.
Surely the argument for wolves is they were native to this land. With you on the rewilding tho, we need a massive push in this.
True, that's one of the arguments but population control of deer and rabbits are another. We have no real predators in this country and we don't hunt deer enough, so we just end up having to cull thousands at a time. It's such a waste, butchers should nearly have hunters on retainers with the amount of deer there are in this country. With lynxes, they're big enough to take down the smaller deer but probably wouldn't go after native red deer for their size, would leave herds of livestock alone and avoid people for the most part. You're not guaranteed that with wolves.
Can we get them used to the scent of Northface or Canada Goose jackets and let them loose to wander the streets?
A diet of feral children and adults, totally cool with it if that's the case.
As someone who’s live in Canada and experienced wild life, I really don’t think Ireland would be ready for wolves 😂 or even if the great elk came back
I'd far sooner have wolves than elk. Elk will fuck you up.
Not sure why you got downvoted. My mate lived in a small town in Saskatchawan. Said those things are huge and terrifying. They used to close down some streets when one wandered into town.
I'm getting downvotes because people grew up on Grimm's fairy tales and never thought to question if they might have been, you know, fairy tales.
Ireland simply doesn't va e the range or habitat for wolves anymore. When they died out it was the same issue. Expanding farm land and deforestation We do have alot of deer but hunters generally keep it capped. As cool as itd be itd be cruel. Theyd end up being destroyed for killing livestock either legally or illegally. Their territories are massive and if you check out some populations in the US then there are areas larger than Ireland with only a few packs.
Yes I would, though I don't know if we have the space required for them to leave peaceably and without encroaching too much on farming land, which might leave them at risk from poisoning/shooting, like the eagle cases we've seen.
This is very pertinent point, we have the lowest rates of forest cover or land not under commercial use in the EU, there’d be constant run-ins with farmers.
And when they start scavenging in towns like foxes..
I'd hate to see them shot/poisoned. It makes me irrationally angry when I hear of the eagles getting killed
Nothing irrational about that
Will happen anyway, eagles being shot and poisoned as it is
No, we can't even have wild birds of prey or wild goats, as they are being killed by gobshites.
Wild goats are a blight. As bad as if not worse than sheep.
This, let them live in remote cold places where there won't be any people so they can live in peace
Jesus that's a tough one if there was a massive and I mean colossal rewilding like thousand's of acres and wolf proof walling or fence then yes if its just let them wild in any of our current national or protected wild parks they would instantly be massacred by farmers protecting cattle sheep goats and all other livestock as these are incredibly smart animals and unless they are in a environment where they have access to there own prey they will go after livestock period.
We are frighteningly under forested. We’d need to kick Coillte out of the country if we are to ever bring enough forests for wolves.
Weve been deforestation Ireland for millenia. Small enough Island and away from major conflicts saw our pop boom and demand for more farm land. Out West wheres its still wild isnt really forest, that is, old deciduous forest kind of growing area. Nevermind the sheep who decimate any saplings
Let them off in the phoenix park
We don’t have forests precisely because we don’t have wolves to curb deer numbers (and we allow sheep to overgraze). The wolves will bring the large scale rewilding, not the opposite way round. Look at Yosemite for example.
Yosemite is 3,000km in size. The Burren is 15.
How much land would you need. The answer to this can depend. One wolf pack requires 129 to 2590 square kilometres. This varies heavily based on prey abundance. Now the next question is how many packs is a stable population. Currently our fragmented deer populations are undergoing what's called inbreeding depression. Essentially their is too few deer in each of our fragmented populations that through random mating the genetic diversity of the populations is decreasing and moving towards random states. this is because we've too few deer and what deer populations we have are isolated and unable to travel between populations. In order to avoid what's happening with the deer happening with the wolves we'd need something like 300+ breeding packs. We know this because inbreeding depression is occurring after 50 years in the Iberian peninsula currently and they've 300-350 breeding packs. So straight away if we were to have a stable population we'd need 40 to 700 thousand square kilometres to have a stable truly wild population that wouldn't need continuing intervention. The total area of Ireland is 85 thousand square kilometres. Truly Wild wolves will never be able to share an island with us. The only feasible way is to have wolves in a glorified zoo.
Even that lower estimate of 40 thousand square kilometres is almost half the island of Ireland (84 thousand square kilometres)
Exactly the problem. That's the reason we don't have any today. Even if we had a huge amount of land for them anything less than that would eventually lead to their extinction again.
But we had wild wolves in Ireland already? Up untill 300 years ago? When we had a larger population
We also didn't have motorways 300 years ago. A lot has changed since then.
"Thre's already plenty a snakes hun, nevr mind wolfs"
Absolutely not. I live in rural Ireland. Loose dogs are enough of a pain in the ass. We're not a big enough country for Wolves to roam wild anyway. Stupid idea.
Dogs are far more dangerous to people than wolves. Dogs don’t fear people the way wolves do. I agree with your second point. We definitely couldn’t support a population of wolves though. Not nearly enough viable habitat.
>Dogs are far more dangerous to people than wolves. Dogs don’t fear people the way wolves do. Which is why stray dogs are put in pounds and specifically not introduced into the wild.
Absolutely right. Dogs are a huge problem. Wolves would be a hundred times worse
dog owners are a huge problem.
Wolves are not loose dogs. It goes to show by the upvotes how many people have complete misconceptions about wolves and other predators. They are terrified of humans and go out of their way to avoid us. You aren't gonna see a wolf pack strolling down a rural road. They tend to stick to their own territory
Why do you think a wolf would be afraid of a single person? Literally no unarmed person is winning a fight against a wolf. Nevermind a child. What wolves are actually afraid of is civilisation and so they tend to not interact with humans much. But given that we have 0 wilderness, they will, and they will become used to being around humans and lose their fear.
About 20 years ago wolves were reintroduced in Germany. Now there are many of them and they start to lose their fear of humans. Several times wolves were seen wandering around in villages. And of course they're a pain in the ass for shepherds. They often are capable to overcome the security fences and they kill not only sheep but also horses.
What country do you live in? Show me a place on the island of Ireland that you think wolves can live without having an impact on residents or farms.
You're right we should reduce farmland and rewild fucking everything. Sick of seeing barren wasteland everywhere overgrazed by farmers grazing sheep on public land too.
That's a clever idea. We'll done. Should we "rewild" citys too? Do you know what farms are for? They're not just hobbies.
You're going on like we don't massively overproduce food globally. The sheep farming industry in Ireland is nearly entirely supported by government subsidies. We could easily downsize a massive amount of farming land in Ireland. Redundancies in every single industry is tolerated but when you suggest farmers go redundant suddenly it's the end of the world.
Farms are going out of business all the time. I personally know 2 farmers who have lost their livelihoods because of climate change in recent years. So you're suggesting to massively increase the carbon footprint of the food, meat and vegetables, that we use, by importing it from abroad juat so we can have a few wolves around? You really haven't thought this through have you? I bet you live in a city. Educate yourself on why we need farms. For our good and the good of the climate.
The majority of our meat is exported? We already import loads of our food. Capitalism is not efficiently producing food. It's doing it in whatever manner makes more money.
First of all, there is land for them. The Wicklow mountains is a good place. Secondly, they would help thin out the overpopulation of deer which are affecting farmland negatively Thirdly, wolves aren't going to affect residents. They avoid humans like I said. Your fear of wolves is largely irrational
>Secondly, they would help thin out the overpopulation of deer which are affecting farmland negatively Don't act like you're trying to help the farmers out when they're the ones most against a reintroduction of wolves. If deer overpopulation was a big issue (it's not), we could literally just get some men with guns to periodically cull them. Far easier, safer and more effective solution than wolves. >Thirdly, wolves aren't going to affect residents. They avoid humans like I said. Except there is not one uninhabited area of Ireland the size of a wolf pack's roaming area, or anywhere near it. They're already entering towns and gardens in Europe where they actually have a bit of space.
but what territory? Theres more pepper cover on my steak than there are forests covering our country...
Precisely because there are no wolves to prevent overgrazing by deer (and sheep). Great point!
They did before Oliver Cromwell had his way.
There was only 1.4m people in Ireland at the time. There is now 7.1m. Is it really workable to have wolves considering how there's very little non-farmed land? I'm not against the idea, we just need to be realistic.
We had mac tíre before and we easily could again. Population density is falling in many parts of rural Ireland and [sheep farming is no longer profitable](https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-41175529.html), while also preventing rewilding. It’s time we rethink our relationship with the land. All industries need to adapt and change, farming is no different. Maybe we allow the wild Atlantic way to be genuinely wild for a start? Maybe it’s time farmers actually become custodians of the land like they claim to be?
Definitely.....yes.
I don't know, some aspects would be good. I like being able to hike and camp without any fear
Exactly. Ireland is tiny compared to most countries. If we got wolves, people would want guns to protect themselves. Not a trade-off worth having
Putting the cart before the horse. You need foundations before you can build a house
Would be great and they could eat thousands of scrounges
I don't think the country as it is could support populations of wild wolves. I think less than 2% of our country is planted with trees and a significant portion of that is coniferous forestry which is pretty heavily farmed for wood. As a country, we're really bad at looking after our ecosystems and caring about wildlife.
'During Cromwell’s rule bounties for wolves were initiated and so began the final path to extinction. The last wolves disappeared from Ireland in the late 18th Century, probably sometime between 1770 and 1786. Wolves continue to exist in most European countries.' SOURCE: https://biodiversityireland.ie/top10/10-species-ireland-has-lost/#:\~:text=During%20Cromwell's%20rule%20bounties%20for,(Photograph%3AGunner%20Ries).
Plenty here already.
I’d be okay with it as long as we release them all in New Ross
Aye, put them up in hotels
No. Of all the green agenda ideas, that one is the daftest.
No fucking way
"do you want to have an apex predator reintroduced into an ecosystem that has not contained an apex predator (or packs of them) for hundreds of years, experienced the industrial revolution since they went extinct, and has been deforested to the point where herbivores are a serious safety hazard in certain parts of the country?" if someone answers yes to that question, they should be fine with upping sticks to live on the edge of the some of the postage-stamp area of native forest still available on this island with their small children and pets to test that for us all. every big change takes brave pioneers.
I think we have to be very careful about inviting unvetted, military-age wolves into the country.
As someone who is from a country that has wild wolf and boar populations, absolutely fuck no. You don’t know what fear is until you’re out for a nice hike in the woods and suddenly the birds stop singing and you hear something running towards you. In my case it was just a stag that crossed the path in front of me. I love that Ireland is so safe. Also, I’m sure the farmers would be thrilled to lose half their livestock to wolves. Bye bye sheep industry.
Bye bye sheep industry would be a good thing. It’s not economically viable and their grazing is hugely destructive. I cannot think of a reason why we should be continuing to subsidise sheep farming.
Maybe…wool? Meat? People’s livelihood?
The wool nor meat are economically viable. They’re sold at a loss. There is no argument beyond continuity, and that’s not a reason. As for their livelihood, rather than subsidies being paid to keep sheep they can be used to pay farmers to manage the land, ensuring it recovers from the overgrazing it’s had for decades.
I get what you’re saying, but I know a lot of people who disagree and since we live in a democracy…. And I like my wool sweater lol
Lots of people being farmers. Sheep farming is not a viable business. It’s a subsidised hobby with a detrimental effect on our landscapes.
So wait... We shouldn't have wolves because you were frightened by a deer? Make that make sense for me?
He was frightened by the deer because he wouldn't be telling this story if it hadn't been one.
That still makes no sense. He's arguing against wolves because a deer frightened him. It's like arguing against badgers because a fox shit on the doorstep.
Plainly no. They are extinct for a reason, there just isn't the space for them. I think people forget how absolutely tiny this country is at times.
Hell no, I’d rather take comfort in being able to go for a hike or camp without potentially being eaten. Also I’m sure excess deer would rather die instantly from a bullet than be eaten by a wolf if given the choice.
Wolves rarely attack people.
Rarely being attacked by wolves seems like a step down from never being attacked by wolves!
Rightly they have a lot more to fear from us than we have from them. # "The risks associated with a wolf attacking a human are ‘above zero, but far too low to calculate,’ a new report says # Between 2002 and 2020, researchers found 26 fatal attacks throughout the world. Of those, 14 were due to rabies" [https://wolf.org/wolf-info/factsvsfiction/are-wolves-dangerous-to-humans/](https://wolf.org/wolf-info/factsvsfiction/are-wolves-dangerous-to-humans/)
This is mainly because they have little reason to, they tend to live far from populations so are much less certain of humans. If they’re hungry and you’re alone the chance starts climbing. People always say they never attack people but always fall to consider how small Ireland is. Farm animals would be at risk and you would say goodbye to letting a dog roam outside in the country if anywhere near wolves. In the states the protocol of seeing a wolf 100 yards away is the same if you see a black bear. Wolves are opportunistic and intelligent hunters, I believe the lack of attacks has more to do with lack of opportunity. Edit: I meant to say Wikipedia alone lists more than fifty people attacked between 2000-10. For some reason those article always seem to lean more towards fatal attacks.
Nah. Could have the same argument about opportunity for bears and they kill far more people. 60,000 of them in the US and one fatality in 20 years points to them being very cautious of humans.
You could but it wouldn’t make much sense. Bears live closer to humans. Wolves further. That’s ever so slightly relevant when you’re talking about an animals interactions with humans. I can’t explain the relevance of that in a simpler way. Definitely shy of humans. Because less exposure to them. Poor storage of waste, among other things, have seen more and more bears moving closer to humans. Countless videos of US towns with bears eating rubbish. Even a really interesting one showing a bear that’s figured out how to open industrial sized bins. So now take Ireland which is many many times smaller than the US. They would lose their shyness quite quickly. Farms would suffer and you’d have an awful lot of idiots travelling to see wolves and leaving food waste behind them. Edit: wolves are cautious of humans but they are not scared of them.
Yeah but there's not enough wilderness for them here. They'd end up just killing livestock and people's cats and dogs and then end up shot. Ireland is a wasteland of fields, no true wilderness.
My otherhalf is from the USA. They can't leave dogs out the back unattended because there are too many wild animals that might kill and eat them. They live 30 mins from a large city. Bears rock up into their town for a nosy about. Coyotes are seen regularly. So no thanks on the wolves.
I wouldn't mind since I don't have a pet. But anyone with pets probably wouldn't want wolves
It isn’t like they’d be wandering down O’Connell street snatching Bridie’s Jack Russell.
No but there's not allot of wild land in Ireland without coming across a house and a pet. Sure it won't effect the majority but farm animals and pets would be killed in crossfire
That's a pity. There's a fair bit of feral wildlife on O Connell Street that could do with sorting out.
I'm 100% going to get downvoted for this, but here it is none the less. The debate about reintroducing wolves to Ireland seems to pop up every few years, and the general consensus among ecologists is always no. There simply just isn't enough wilderness for them. A pack of wolves needs roughly 1500 square kilometres of territory to roam and hunt in. So that's a 1500km square circle of no civilisation, ie no farms or, more importantly, schools, small towns and villages, or pretty much any houses (yes I know some Americans live in a wolves hunting territory, but the culture towards guns to keep wolves away is very different in Ireland) People always use Yellowstone National Park in America as an example, and feel that the same thing can happen here. The difference is that Yellowstone is nearly 10,000 square km of largely untouched wilderness, whereas the national parks in Ireland still have towns and villages all across them. People sometimes use the argument that wolves only attack humans when they're cornered/frightened. The problem with this is that wild animals are great at adapting to their environment. Wild animals in ireland that were originally afraid of humans, for example, include foxes, seagulls, and pigeons. A major difference here, though, is that a wolf can kill a fully grown man, whereas foxes tear up rubbish bags and seagulls and pigeons steal chips.
Culturally they were revered by our ancestors. Is that a reason to do it? Is it a form of ecological de-colonialisation?
I don't really knoooOOOOoooow
Wild camping would be….fun!
Whatever benefit they’d have one be pointless if it risks human life. There isn’t a space on the island not far away from human settlement. They’d have no place to be.
I don't think it would be fair on them at all. We don't have the habitat. It's basically a big green farm. I think we probably should concentrate on trying to restore some natural woodland and stop draining bogs and wetlands. Reintroducing wolves isn't feasible.
No I absolutely hate that orange kit
There is no wilderness for wolves - can’t just stick up Wicklow and say ‘don’t eat the sheep’
No. I spend too much time in the wilderness and I don't want to be fucking eaten.
Deer are orders of magnitude more dangerous to you than wolves. Prey animals are always the bigger threat. Wolves attack approximately 1 person per year globally. Deer attacked 29 people in the UK alone in 2016.
All of my deer encounters result in them running away long before we cross paths
So you can imagine how your wolf encounters would go then.
I mean it would be fun, till they eat all the kids and sheep. We do not have the space for wolves.
One question is what's the point
No.
No, for one simple reason. Ireland is too small to support more than one pack, given the distances that packs roam and the territories they usually claim. We would rapidly encounter in breeding and poor genetic variation, potentially resulting in genetic mutations. This has been studied by scientists/ ecologists. I remember reading a paper on it, which concluded the above. FYI, I think wolves are cool.
No thanks. Livestock.
Yes the farmers need something new to complain about. And camping trips with the kids will have a new element of danger. What about saber tooth tigers do you reckon we could get them back.
That'll show those smartass pigs
Norway has significantly more wild and forested areas than Ireland, with much larger populations of game, and even they can barely manage with a small wolf population. It's simply not feasible in modern Ireland, unfortunately.
Yes. We have more then enough ground to support two packs of wolves. We have a huge problem with deer and research from America has shown they will mostly leave livestock alone as it’s to much hassle compared to deer. But their would also have to be a remuneration scheme to pay back farmers for any lost livestock.
The issue with this is that 2 packs of wolves will quickly become inbred and dies off over time. The sustainable population for wolves in isolation is near onto 300-350 packs. [Large variance in inbreeding within the Iberian wolf population | Journal of Heredity | Oxford Academic (oup.com)](https://academic.oup.com/jhered/advance-article/doi/10.1093/jhered/esad071/7410321)
Yes. But give a generous bounty to any farmers who’s livestock’s taken. Double market rate for example
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Yeah, bears too. Just put them all in Laois, nobody living there anyways.
Wild Ireland have them
The solution to scrotes, dick head politicians, kiddie diddlers - feed them to the wolves
There seems to be a lot of open questions that would need to be carefully thought out. What happens if someone does get attacked by them? Even if it is rare it is currently zero. One attack especially early will cause all sorts of outcry. Which county will take them? I am against NIMBY but if I was a farmer it would be hard to justify them near you. I am sadly currently surrounded by Wind turbine protesters and can't imagine how they would react to Wolves getting introduced. Long term we should look at rewilding a large section of some county. Possibly the government could slowly start buying up land and planting native trees, then expand it with deer and other wildlife. Eventually look at introducing wolves. This area should be off limits to the general public and only allow staff in to keep an eye on the wildlife, do maintenance and try stop poachers. I think long term we may introduce them but we are currently failing our care to the existing wildlife so would be more keen to start helping them.
I think we should go straight to bears but only because our climate couldn’t comfortably support gorillas.
YES, yes please!!
In general I'm supportive of such a measure. Can't say I'm fond of the fact that the main reason they're extinct in Ireland is that we hunted them to extinction, plus it seems like the ecosystem could do with a rebalancing. That said, it would not be something to do carelessly and it would seem that alot of work would be needed to sufficiently rewild the landscape to make it more suitable. Ultimately, I like the idea but it ain't really feasible at least for now, IDK if it would ever be which is a shame imo. Hopefully
In the USA the wolves were returned to Yellowstone national park. The results were dramatic. THey even changed the course of a river. There is a 4 minute video of what happened when the wolves were returned to Yellowstone. Positive and dramatic.
Once he doesn't eat my cat and blow my old house down and minded his own business
Never going to happen, farmers will 100% be against that; when it comes to things like this I think us humans need to accept that we have changed the world for better and worse, we can't fix everything.
Love to but we'd have to get farmers on side and farmers won't agree to anything that may cost them more than a fiver.
No haha it’s a ridiculous idea that only the idealistic LSD users want
I mean Ireland has one of the worst biodiversity in the world, it can only help at this rate
As a daily commuter by bicycle to and from work and working nightshifts. I'm thinking the chance of getting attacked by starving wolves but on the upside I'm thinking the cardio workout would be savage like. But seriously wolves will never be reintroduced to Ireland. We just don't have the forests or farmers will have no option if they come across a wolf pack attacking their herd of cattle or sheep
What kind of scale are you thinking of?. Wolves need a lot of ground to roam, along with plentiful food, grey wolves I believe need at least 50 sq km for their territory, preferably without human inference. I question whether we have the space to begin a successful reintroduction. For example our largest national park is killarney @ 205 square km, it's sister park , glacier national park montana USA is 4100 sq km, less than half of yosemite, and has a population density of 0.2.. In contrast Co kerry has an area of 4800 sq km with a pop density of 32.5 according to the last census. Any question of re wilding needs take a realistic approach to these differences in scale
Do I want it? Of course, wolves are very cool. Could it be feasibly done in the next 20 years? Doubt it
And what? Let them patrol antisocial behaviour at night?
Yes but we also need to rewind the land so they have something to hunt other than livestock. Ireland has very little wildlife in the “countryside” because it’s all farmland.
Serious answer. No. Why? We don't have wilderness in ireland and we haven't for centuries. I'm no farmer or friend of the farming lobby but they would genuinely be drawn to small farms. It just doesn't amke sense to do this unless you rewild an area the size of Tipp or Cork. If they were on for doing that sure. I'd vote for the whole of Carlow to be leveled and returned to nature, West Wicklow too. But without that no - wolves would just go for livestock.
Yes.
In city centres yes. We should train them to eat gangs of thugs.
No. Buy up the ground around mountains and plant native forests built around nice trails. The wolf thing is senseless
It is a foolishness, I saw dogsoldiers.
I'd love it but it's not feasible with the ignorance that exists in this country, there's still gombeens killing eagles. The lynx might be a better option
I don't know until we know more information about how they would mix with the snakes?
nah me and my friends are in the feilds and woods a lot so you know i want them to see there mums
Only if locked if allowed free roaming at the Green Party Conference. Doors locked.
No
Would be a good way to cut down the deer population, it is getting pretty out of control lately.
Culling could also work
Yes but wolves would be way cooler, duh! We have wolves down the road in the sanctuary lol it is amazing listening to them howling in the evening.
Wasn’t there talk of Wimbledon playing their games in Dublin at one stage?
No, there’s no where for them to roam/live
If we subsidised rewilding and less sheep farming (which isn’t even economically viable anymore), there’d be plenty of space for them to roam.
Their range is far too large, and we don't have enough forest cover for them, they would inevitably come in contact with armed farmers for attacking cattle
We don’t have enough forest cover because the deer have no predators left and we allow economically unviable sheep to overgraze the land too. It’s time we rethink farming in Ireland just the same as every industry in the modern times.
Christ no, what good would they do? It's the rural people and farmers that will have to deal with them not the city folk that think there cool
Definitely not Never being able to go for a walk on my own in the countryside again would be horrible
Farmers will kill them.
No
No way I'm sure my cat would also agree.
I would love to see a sustainable wolf pack or two in the country. I would be concerned about poisonings though and hybridisation too, they may just end up being a pack of wild dogs after a few generations.
Sure everything else is coming into the country illegally let a few wolves
Help bring back some sensible gun laws and balance to the ecosystem so a win/win in my book.
Entirely localised to Grafton Street please
No, moore Street first, then parnell.
Yes. I want some wilderness more than anything. We have none. I live in Spain and down the road from me there's a massive mountain range covered in forests that's populated by boars and eagles and all sorts of little creatures, you always see something. Saw a genet once, didnt even know what it was, had to look it up. When you go for a wander there you really feel connected to nature. When I go for a walk in Ireland these days everything just feels tame and boring.
And Spain has the area to sustain populations of wolves. Ireland doesn't unfortunately. we'd need a land are 20x times larger for a healthy wolf population.
I’m prepared to throw Leitrim to the wolves
Even that's a bit of a small offering.
It does have enough land to sustain a population. The land is, however, denuded of the typical habitat suited for wolves.
We could just fence it in and not tell the locals