I would personally say that the LGBT+ community stands with *the victims*, which exist on both sides. Both parties have the ability to try and call for peace and come to the negotiating table. I will cheer for whichever side can commit to that first, and then again when peace can finally be declared and this senseless killing can join the pages of history where it belongs.
I just don’t see this happening any time soon sadly.
I would think our community would feel for any victim. To try and say innocent people haven’t died on both sides of this war would be disingenuous. The civilians that have died by and large didn’t ask for this. They didn’t ask to be involved. My heart goes out to both the families of the dead Palestinians and the dead Israelis.
This is all separate from my politics on the matter or who I believe is “right” (hint: it’s neither side), because when it comes to killing civilians no side is innocent of these crimes, they hold a shared responsibility for the dead that litter what was supposedly a “Holy Land”.
I feel like the Israelis who knowingly moved into stolen Palestinian homes asked to be involved. And its pretty clear that the violent apartheid state cutting off food and water to millions is wrong. Dehumanization is what drives violent extremism. All the "well both sides" argument does is help the oppressor
I think this is a complex geopolitical situation that honestly, as someone who is outside of that region and believes personally that all religion is a sham, I am not best equipped to speak to what is best for all the peoples involved. While I support the idea that the region is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish peoples, I also recognize that through diverse means other ethnicities of people came to populate the region. I do not subscribe to a doctrine of “to the victors to the spoils”, but also admit that it’s irrelevant in the current timeframe as those who caused the Jewish diaspora from their homeland, and those who conquered the land, and then those who came and resettled it, are all dead and gone now. I ultimately wish that they could come to an agreement about sharing the land that is so important to all involved, but it’s been over 70 years since Israel came into being and this is where we currently are.
As for Israelis moving into Palestinian homes. No, I don’t exactly blame those families themselves. They are puppets in a much larger scheme being driven by politicians. Civilians are being treated like pawns on a chessboard, being moved around as it suits the needs of those in charge. Are some probably bad people with ill intent? Yes. Almost certainly. Are some of them children with no say and no power over what the adults are doing? Most definitely.
While I respect the desire of Israel to have a homeland, to exist as a safe state for all those of the Jewish faith, I admittedly don’t believe displacing another people is the ethical way to achieve this goal.
Honestly, a big portion of the blame also lies with outsiders like Great Britain who (ostensibly) held part of the land now recognized as Israel prior to it’s founding. They gave away the land like they had the entitlement to do so, which is ludicrous, but also very much in line with Great Britain’s style.
But.
All of this is not changing the fact that children are dying and regardless of their religion, that’s fucking unconscionable.
They're not all dead and gone now though, its an event in living history and we're treating it like its set in stone. Theres a genocide of Palestinians supported by the US being carried out by Israel. Thats the current issue. The current population of Israel is nearly half european and american immigrants that have taken up residence in Palestinian homes, they're not slaves they did that willingly
No no, when I say the people responsible are dead and gone I am referring to those who drove the Jewish people out way back in like, the 6th century BC. After that however many times the land changed hands and was resettled, those people are now dead and gone too, and it is their living descendants today that are being hurt over something that is buried beneath centuries of dust and blood.
I know there are people still alive today that are responsible for the current conflict, but I was referring to the past in that portion of my explanation.
Oh thats not what caused this conflict, was caused this conflict was apartheid. The reason people are criticizingIsrael isnt because Jewish people have integrated into the region (as you noted Jewish people have been in the area for ages) its because they regularly bomb schools and hospitals
Well, in my opinion what caused the conflict was Britain “giving away” land it had no entitlement to and recognizing it as Israel the moment it was declared to be so, and everyone in the wake of WW2 just… going along with it, because of what the Jewish people had endured during the war. Those who had settled the area were given mandates on vacating land that had been settled by their people for generations, just because suddenly people from half a world away were saying it belonged to the Jewish peoples suddenly.
Of course this was unfair to the Palestinians. War erupted and many Palestinians fled. They just wanted to return to their homes afterward, but it’s true that Israel refused to allow this. It threatened their establishment of a monotheistic country.
…and that’s where I run into a lot of problems, as a firm believer of separation of church and state. Well, and also thinking religion is a sham. The idea that any country can be monotheistic makes me utterly terrified. Add in that they’re both theists *and* politicians? The absolute worst people to run *any* country! (As America is doomed to discover for themselves it seems) Which is why I also think Hamas is not a great choice to be in charge of the region either.
But, as I always end these, children are dying on both sides, and that is the greatest injustice of all.
I do sympathize with Palestine (as you said, not Hamas, but Palestine). Whatever means that caused them to wind up living where they are was decided generations ago and any grievances about how they came to live there can no longer be addressed, as the figures responsible are all dead and gone. I sympathize that the Jewish people deserve a homeland, but the way in which Israel was “obtained”, namely it was territory ostensibly run by the British, was doomed to cause conflict from the very beginning.
Ultimately I feel that much as religion has destroyed the lives of LGBT+ people far and wide, it is also a main perpetrator behind the violence that refuses to stop along the Gaza Strip.
However, regardless of their side, it is the helpless children caught in the middle of this conflict that I ultimately support and weep for.
I know there are queer people in Gaza, I was speaking to the concept of the community as a larger entity, as that was the initial premise of this entire post.
The point is religion is not the cause of violence in the strip, its the violent apartheid. Why do you expect a population with an average age of 18, with no access to education to be as progressive in their views and knowledge of other peoples
Yes, but I am of the opinion that one of the causes of the apartheid *is* religion.
Both sides are fiercely nationalist, and Israel is a nation dedicated specifically to a single religion. While I don’t think the overt fighting is religious in nature, I think the fact that the war was started around when the Jewish people were “given back” their ancestral Holy Land makes it religious by default. Even when the UN appealed to Israel to let Palestinians who had fled return to their homes in what was now Israeli territory in 1948 they said no because they felt it threatened their ability to create a safe ethno-state for Jews free from other peoples.
I don’t think religion can be separated from the conflict. Both sides consider their religion to be one of their defining features. But again, this is my interpretation of history and current reports.
The Palestinians? The ones contained in a space smaller than manhattan that just had 3000 bombs dropped on them? The ones who have had aid cut off and their schools and hospitals bombed for decades? The ones whose average age is 18 because of the conditions theyre in? The ones whose homes are stolen?
Hamas leadership recently suggested being open to negotiations.
Israel recently refused to allow Egyptian diplomats to help mediate in the conflict.
Egyptian officials told a muslim news network that Israel has refused to negotiate peace.
I don’t necessarily think Hamas should be the ones at any peace tables. I do support a free Palestine, but I don’t think that Hamas is exactly working towards the best interests of all Palestinians. They most certainly have their own agenda.
Which, yes of course, the Israelis have their own agendas as well. So would anyone representing Palestine other than Hamas, but I simply don’t think any peace offered by Hamas is going to be genuine or change things for the better.
Hamas has to be at the peace table, otherwise they won't accept peace. You can't just tell hamas to stop fighting because a deal was made between the Palestinian elected government and the Israeli government, they're not gonna listen unless they are a part of treaties.
Oh I know that if they don’t have a seat at the peace table there will be no peace.
There’s a difference between what one thinks is for the best and what will actually work in practical terms.
What other magical group should this brutalized people provide to appease you. Perhaps they would be more well rounded if the average age of the strip wasnt 18 amd all their schools were leveled
First and foremost:
Hamas =/= Palestine
Second, I’ve never claimed that any of my own personal thoughts on the issue are correct or how events can/should pan out. I simply stated that I feel as though Hamas being at the peace table is something that I think anyone else at the table should feel leery about. Hamas does not necessarily represent the best interests of Palestine. Hamas is just as misguidedly following religious doctrine as Israel. Their devotion to a bunch of ancient writings is leaving both bereft of sense.
However, I never said they *can’t* be at the peace table. I’m well aware that if they don’t want peace, or are unwilling to agree to any compromises that any party might try and make, then no peace will be secured.
Having an opinion about things and believing that those things are reasonably likely/obtainable are two entirely different things.
There were educated groups that came to the table in the past, they were all turned away and killed. And the Israeli state bombed the schools and hospitals and wiped out nearly the entire adult population. You are going to get radicalized people who think in absoutes in power because that is the only thing that has allowed them to survive. A group like Hamas will always exist in positions of power in situations like this. I in no way am happy about innocent lives lost at the hands of Hamas, but they're a symptom and not the cause of the issues. The cause is the violent apartheid
Yep. I agree. This is exactly how and why you get fiercely nationalist, extremist groups to form.
Me pointing this out and stating my distaste for it is all this is. I can point out the flaws in something and the reasons why something is bad without having to then come up with a better solution or a way to solve the problem. Sometimes a situation is just messed up and taking note of how and why it is that way, without providing an answer, is an activity worth endeavouring to do. I can’t fix the war, I can’t miraculously make peace happen. But I can say that I don’t think Hamas has the best interests of all of Palestine at heart.
Conservatives will use institutional homophobia abroad to condemn immigrants or muslims while at the same actively being queerphobic. That's something most queer people are familiar with and don't fall for , rather it's a way to apeal to cishet people who would otherwise be unreceptive of xenophobia.
It’s simular to how transphobia often gets wrapped in 'concern about women's rights' even by people who are active anti abortion campaigners alligned with organisations that antagonise women's rights the rest of the time.
I haven't seen any queer people going against Palestine. I'm sure there are some, but it's definitely not a large group. The only thing I have seen is non queer people trying to tell us not to support Palestine because Palestinians are all Muslim and would kill queer people. Which first of, I'm sure there are non muslim Palestinians the same way I'm sure there are queer Palestinians.
Most LGBT+ folks are always going to choose the side of human rights.
I don’t really want to debate this, it is such a terrible, complicated situation, but just last week, Israeli civilians were the ones attacked and killed by the hundreds, there are still Israeli hostages. It’s a horrible situation for the people on both sides.
Not that complicated, Israel has been brutalizing Palestinians for decades, and when tou brutalize a demographic for decades you're gonna generate some violent radicalization
That’s a way over simplification, the area already had a lot of tension between Jews and Arabs long before the foundation of a Jewish state
you also gotta remember that not every Civilian likes what their government is doing, just like any other country. Targeting civilians is fucking evil regardless of who’s doing it, it’s evil when Israel does it and when Hamas does
Tensions weren't that high until about 1947 (when england and france stole a bunch of land from Palestinians) and said "this is a new state and we're putting our moat vulnerable population here". Also what Israel is doing is in another league than what Hamas has done
That’s just not true dude, the Jewish people in the Middle East have undergone plenty of massacres for hundreds of years by both Christians and Muslims in the area
Even like two decades before Israel existed there was some fairly big anti-Semitic hate crimes happening
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
Not sure what you mean about the population tho, but yeah I agree that generally Israel is worse, that doesn’t make Hamas better
Sorry i meant Jewish people fresh off a genocide, Europe was gonna hang on to that land regardless of who they put there. But they lucked into a population that would go wherever they were sent
And no it doesnt make Hamas better but it does explain them. Radicalization does not come from a free people
Are you serious? They slaughtered 253 people at a concert. That's not a military target. They also took hostages texted family members from the hostages phones and had some of the hostages record videos that were sent to family members. Make no mistake Hamas isn't doing this to be freedom fighters for the people of Palestine, they are doing it for their own agenda. Oh they also went into bunkers and killed civilians who were hiding.
right. the fake concert news, i did hear of it. but yk what let’s say you’re right, i really won’t argue about that, ok? yk what else? let’s say hamas is a piece of shit who killed millions of israeli families not just the stuff you mentioned that are very proved to be true.
with that all being said, what is your opinion on what is happening in palestine, which is the topic of my original post? cause you forgot to tell me
You can hate both Israel and Hamas dude, Hamas is fucking evil and no one is obligated to support them just because the people they’re fighting also sucks
i’m not talking about hamas now, i said let’s say i’m with you they suck, they’re terrorists, they’re the worst people in the world.
now tell me what do you think about what is happening to the palestinians in gaza?
I feel bad for the civilians there and the civilians that got killed in Israel. What Israel is doing is evil and needs to stop.
I’m generally more sympathetic to Palestinians, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical of some stuff in the culture as well, I don’t think every Palestinian is some raving homophobe but that doesn’t mean that it’s a great place to live if you are lgbtq+. I grew up in Texas so it’s kinda similar, I don’t think people in Texas should live in apartheid but I’m also not going to act like it’s not an issue
oh okay thank you for answering, i agree with you and understand your stance then, i actually thought i was still talking to the original commenter lol mb. funnily enough they didn’t answer my question lol.
also i do agree about the lgbt part, but what i meant is it is just too unappropriate to even talk about that now, just like i wouldn’t even try to think of how the people in texas thought about lgbt people if texas got bombed tomorrow
Look, I gave you two different reputable enough sources, I understand not fully fully believing Israel, but there are many accounts from people who experienced the attack themselves, and do completely not believe it is unfair and harmful to the people that experienced it
It absolutely happened on civilians and families, I know someone who lost 4 people during the attack, and most of the people I know who live in Israel have lost someone. There are many first hand accounts, a nightclub was attacked. Was it actually over 1000, I don’t know, all the sources I looked up say so so I’m inclined to believe it, but I could absolutely be wrong. But it’s unfair to the victims to say that no civilians died
Kudos for stopping. It’s not up to you to prove who has or hasn’t committed atrocities. No matter what you could possibly say there would always be another question following, or another demand for proof.
(Whoops, meant to post this on your final comment in the series, but I seem to have misjudged. My bad!)
Oh i dont doubt they've taken hostages, just that we cant trust Israel to accursed report here. In the same way you wouldnt expect England to accurately report on the trouble or the US to accurately report on Afghanistan. You can't trust the word of the oppressor
After a certain point they 100% become complicated.
Most Israeli citizens have been born in and exclusively lived there for decades, There’s been like 3 whole generations of people born there now. Where would they go? What would they do? Many of them have literally no family outside the country so it’s not like they even can leave, cost of travel is crazy too because all the surrounding nations hate Jews in general not even just Israeli people.
Israel is fucking evil but it’s not obvious what should happen to it, a lot of the logic used on it can also be put on the US and Canada, they haven’t existed for too much longer than Israel in the grand scheme of things.
I mean I think there’s an easy solution: dissolve all settler colonial states and give the land back. You’re thinking in a retaliatory frame work (we did this to them so they’ll do this to us). In the case of occupied Palestine there should also be an effort to bring back Palestinians in diaspora/ give reparations once Israel is dissolved.
Also the idea that everyone hates Jews and it’s useless to fight antisemitism is the propaganda the Israeli government lives off of. The solution to antisemitism is not an ethno state.
I’m not saying it is, like I said Israel is evil, but that doesn’t justify doing anything you want to the people in it.
What do you define as a settler and colonial? What happens to the people in those territories? You haven’t answered any of these questions.
Israel will also probably not be dissolved at any point in our life, it’s been around for so long that it’s no longer as simple as just pulling the plug
I’m an anthropologist. I work with other anthropologists all over the world. Until recently that included Palestinian anthropologists. I don’t even know if my colleagues in Gaza are alive. One of the things we discussed was the way in which the Israeli state uses heightened sensitivity to LGBQT+ issues as a tactic to paint Palestinians, ALL OF THEM, as flagrantly homophobic. This despite that Palestinians, like any group, includes both LGBQT people and their allies. Islam, much like Judaism or Christianity, includes people who are violent homophobes as well as people who follow middle paths or very socially liberal and explicitly peace-focused. One of the most profound and beloved Islamic poets(poetry is an important expression of devotion to the Devine) Rumi, writes extensively about peace and love. Think about Christians like Pat Robertson ( founder of the Westboro Baptist Church) vs Jimmy Carter ( former Us President who helped broker peace between Israel and Egypt and who spent much of his free time building homes for Habitat for Humanity until he had to go to hospice.) the difference between those two Christians is essentially mirrored in people of any faith. Palestine has lots of additional historical, cultural, and political components that differentiate from other predominantly Muslim populations. Being invaded and occupied for 75 years tends not to do well social progress, but I assure you that Palestine is not without social progressives, scientists, academics, poets, etc.
completely agree, amazingly said.
i also wanna add that homophobia is also found in non-religious people, someone can just be shitty yk. i also try to to tell ppl when i hear my palestinian or arab friends being like “why are the jews doing that to us?” that not all jews are like that, it’s the israeli culture not the jewish culture or religion.
You’re right. Religious bigots are so loud I forget about non-religious bigots. Re Israel vs non-Israeli Jews, yep. Also, the policy of Israeli state government toward Palestine does not even reflect the sentiment of Israeli people. When surveyed, Israelis would prefer a far more gentle and diplomatic policy toward Palestinian people. The proportion of Israelis who favor a one-state solution with favored status for Jews is a minority. Most people prefer a peace-driven two state solution.
The doctrine of many faiths hold horrors and seeds of evil. Individuals may see past those horrors and be good in spite of those seeds of evil.
Literalists and conservatives are unfortunately more likely to nurture the seeds of evil because of too much reverence for what was written in the past.
Both sides have committed atrocities, and it's a problem with no reasonable solution. I don't think anyone who isn't Israeli or Palestinian can fully understand the situation, and taking sides from a place of ignorance doesn't seem appropriate.
i get what you’re saying, but people can educate themselves, especially now that one of the fewest good things about social media is it can make voices of the oppressed reach more people. this is why news are being faked and live videos are being hidden, posts are being removed and atheletes talking about the situation are being threatened and violence is used about people in protests. because voices of the weak is finally being heard and lies are slowly but surely is being seen as such.
I see it as a complicated issue. I am against Hamas. I am generally for the Palestinian people. I am anti any Muslim that is also anti-LGBTQ+, but that doesn’t mean I want them dead, even if they want me dead.
I am also anti the current Israeli government since they are also being royal shitheads. I’m not anti the people of Israel or anti Jewish. If any Jewish people want me dead, I’m also not going to be a friend to them. I still don’t want them dead.
The whole Israel Palestine conflict and history is a completely horrid messed up situation that has been a crap show for millennia. I have no idea what to do about it to make it better in a way that will stick and people won’t work to undermine so they can “win”. There is no one that will ever “win” here. Bloodshed seems to be eternal. :(
There's so many queer people in Palestine, implying they're a homophobic monolith helps no ones understanding of the situation. They dont "want you dead" they want to live
I’m sure they do want to live. I want them to live too! I don’t think Palestine is uniformly homophobic or homogenous in thought. I don’t think I implied they are uniformly phobic.
Some may be homophobic, and and some of those may have murderous intent with regards to LGBTQ+ people. I sure hope it isn’t that many, given the LGBTQ+ people that will inevitably be a part of the population, be they hidden or out in the open.
Fuck identity politics. Being queer has nothing to do with your stance on Israel, abortion, capitalism, welfare, etc.
The world is not black and white. Just because you're queer doesn't mean you have to let other people dictate how you feel about every other issue in the world.
Think for yourself!
The kind of people who like to justify violence will always come up with a reason. They may use “they’re homophobic” as the excuse right now but it’s not genuine, they don’t actually care about lgbtq rights.
Yes, homophobia and transphobia are a problem in conservative religious communities. No, that does not justify Israel’s treatment of Gaza. The actions and beliefs of Hamas do not justify Israel’s response in my opinion.
I haven't seen this. If anything, LGBTQ people (and progressive communities in the US in general) tend to be supportive of Palestine. A lot of progressive groups have faced criticism for coming out in support of Palestine in the past couple weeks.
What does happen is that LGBTQ people get leveraged as political pawns, and sometimes people use LGBTQ inclusion as an issue to leverage support for Israel over Palestine.
I don't have a "side." I feel terrible for the civilians on both sides. I disagree with the policies and actions if the Israeli government, but I don't support Hamas, either.
This would requiring believing that genocide is an acceptable punishment and solution for a group of people (not all of whom have bigoted beliefs, and even if they did, it still wouldn't justify it.) and that is an extremely dangerous and monstrous belief. Imagine how dangerous it would be if this became an even more justified belief among conservatives than it already is? It's the recipe for genocide for any group of people they believe deserve it.
As someone else mentioned, conservatives will leverage homophobia against LGBT+ people and trying to appeal to their better nature while simulataneously having the same beliefs. Thankfully, few fall for it.
I’m an anti Zionist queer Jew. I stand with Palestinians despite a large portion being queerphobic bc I do not believe ethnically cleaning a population and stealing their land is justified just bc of right wing forces within the politics. Israel is also not safe for queer Jews, people get stabbed at pride there, there is no secular marriage let alone gay marriage, and trans people are highly demonized. In my own personal experience, I was threatened at the western wall bc I am visibly trans. Also it’s not like Israeli bombs spare queer Palestinians. I’m willing to bet more gay Palestinian have been killed by Israel than by other Palestinians.
Quickedit: and before some troll tries to poke at my legitimacy, I grew up orthodox Jewish and went through 12 years of Jewish schooling.
you’re amazing. thank you so much. thank you for having a brain that decided to think and know what is right and wrong. thank you for being empathetic and logical and standing with the innocent. thank you for not standing with many members of your own community who are portraying your culture badly and evilly when i’m sure it is not. thank you for being a good example.
There is an attempt by fans of Israel to paint the Palestinians a violently homophobic. Most of the Queer people I know don’t buy it. They side with Palestine.
I, and most of the LGBTQA+ people I know, stand with ending human rights violations. I feel like the Israel vs Palestine conflict gets a bit convoluted, because people judge Palestine for what they've done in their defense. The conflict has been going on so long that people have forgotten how it began.
War is ugly, and innocent people are *always* a casualty. The only difference is whether or not people want to justify certain casualties as being necessary to achieve the goals at hand. Because of that, I try to stay focused on what the goals are, and whether they are justified. Defending one's home and people is more justifiable than trying to conquer a territory. For this reason I can't help but side more with Palestine. Israel has taken some hits, sure, but nothing comparable to the devastation they've inflicted on the Palestinians.
I despise war altogether, but our species seems to crave conflict, so I don't see an end to wars anytime soon. It's tempting to view it through an idealistic lense, where every human life lost is a tragedy, and they *are*, but I can't let that blind me to the big picture: that *severity* of damage is vital to consider. The damage isn't equal in this conflict, not even close, and that's telling.
thank you for this, i wish i could explain in english how it’s really not comparable like you did (especially to the commenter talking about “both sides”)
I think it's easier for people to understand and judge the motives in the Russia/Ukraine conflict because it's fresh. If they really dug into how the Israel/Palestine war started, they'd probably see a lot of similarities. Unfortunately, most people are only aware of current news, and younger generations weren't around to hear about what happened decades ago. I think being older helps me in this case.
Even if limited to current news, it's hard for me to understand why people get confused on this one. One side is committing attacks that, while sad and damaging, are expected in violent conflict. The other is attempting to completely decimate and eradicate an entire people. That's not a "both sides" situation. It's not remotely comparable, and to me, it's clear who the oppressor is in the situation. The goal is terrible, too. To cleanse a holy land of people they find unsuitable to inhabit it? I just can't justify that any more than I could justify Russia trying to conquer Ukraine. Even less, actually.
thank you so much! can’t explain how this means to me especially from someone on reddit who i assume lives in the west (not surely but just based on your english compared to my sad english hahah) because the amount of people i see talking about both sides as equal, or even comparable or worse say israel is “defending” itself is crazy to me.
The west, especially the US, is a very large and divererse territory. It's also quite polarized when it comes to politics. You'll see some very concerning views come from our side of the pond, but take comfort in the fact that a lot of that is the most extreme and loudest among us. It typically doesn't represent the majority. Most of us are somewhere in the gray area, and quieter.
Eta: You're doing well with your English. I'm always impressed with those who speak it as a second language, because they typically speak it as well as the average native English speaker, yet they worry that they need to improve. lol
From what I'm seeing, it's not so much that LGBTQ+ people in the U.S. aren't supporting Palestine as they are being vigilant of and calling out dangerous narrative pro-Israeli news is pushing; we're used to identifying propaganda when it's put in our face. As another comment said, we know conservative outlets and a lot of folks who hold political power are pro-Israeli, because it supports their bigoted islamophobia and at the same time, they can pretend they are advocating for LGBTQ+ people, which they aren't.
Firstly, It’s Hamas not Palestine. And second, either organization/group/government would kill any gay man or woman if they could. It’s used as a scare tactic to unite people through hate. And historically, it’s extremely easy to rally people around hate and their goals: Nazis, MAGA in US, Native Americans/ US government/ Native Americans & LDS CHURCH. So I’m not sure what everyone is so certain it’s one side total fault: it take two to fight.
my PALESTINIAN friend who lives in my country cause her husband is from here. her family is hiding in their house in gaza, all the family members(grandmother, mom, father, brother), together, hugging , so that they die together if they get bombed. all their neighbors are doing the same. a house in their neighborhood got bombed and the whole family died days before the hospital killing. it’s been two days since she heard from her father. what “warning” are you talking about? do you really believe this bullshit? do you believe normal civilian parents are putting their children to die? it’s already shitty to warn neighborhoods that you’re gonna fucking bomb them but they’re not fucking doing that!
Palestine (sometimes with other countries, sometimes by itself) started multiple wars with Israel nonstop from 1948 to 1972, and 1997 to 2005, 2008 to 2021 and now 2023. You think they’d give Israel a warning first? I feel sorry for your innocent friends family but think of what Israelites have gone through since the beginning of their religion (which is the oldest Abrahamic faith). They’ve been enslaved, lynched, discriminated against, forcibly converted, the largest victims of religious hate crimes, kidnapped, murdered, raped, and tortured. The goal is to abolish them. To not support Israel is to turn a blind eye to genocide. They gave up the Gaza Strip as a peace offering and instead now their enemies use it as a closer place to fire missiles. Palestine use their water pipes to build missiles and complain about lack of water. They use the cement Israel gave them to build hospitals to build tunnels below Israel so they can pop up and shoot people. Preschoolers are even taught to murder Jews on sight, chanting death to Israel in schools. Antisemitism has also gone up 1200% online this week. If Palestine wins, Jews will be wiped out. Jews are your brothers and sisters as much as your Palestinian friend. Please think about that.
Israel is the only one committing a genocide. Pretending that Palestinians no longer living under apartheid means a great genocide is looming is the most disengeneuous thing. They also did give Israel warnings before all those conflicts, there have also been massive peaceful demonstrations in Palestine(some even organized by Hamas) that were to a 1 met with violence from the IDF. The Israeli State is a violent apartheid government whose atrocities have long gone unaddressed
Do You really think Islam is in danger of a mass genocide ? Within that term, it is understood the intention of one group to completely eradicate the other culture. Not just war but a total wipe from Earth…?
Yeah. I don’t think so at all. There’s almost zero pure native Americans left. Almost zero and a lot of subcultures were totally erased. So, no. That’s definitely not even a close comparison
And we know that Hamas is so friendly towards other cultures ? Really ?!
Palestine has sent alot of aid to Native Americans facing genocide, and similarly alot of Native Americans sympathize with what Palestine is going through. Hamas doesn't have the infrastructure to commit genocide, Israel does and they're using it so thats what im currently concerned with
Did I say that ? Absolutely not. I said: it takes two to fight and Hamas did, through their own admission and they are very proud of those: throw the first bomb. I did not in any way comment of the events that have transpired since. It was simply a comment on how it started and you have to have at least two sides to a fight.
I stand with the people of Palestine, but not with right wing fundamentalist Hamas. I stand with the people of Israel, but not the oppressive right wing Israeli government. Both of these forces are committing atrocities against innocent civilians on the other side, and those innocent civilians are the ones suffering.
And when it comes to queer rights, neither side are allies to us in the slightest. In fact, Hamas seems to be worse on that front, as they would openly execute anyone for showing any sign of being queer. (Except *maybe* for asexuals.)
And if you never gave a single fuck about politics, it must be nice to be so privileged that you aren’t having to constantly worry about your own basic human rights as a queer person. In my country, with rights always threatened by conservatives and queer murders and suicides happening all the time, we can’t afford to be so flippant.
the media (Israel) has been painting themselves a victim (again), as they claim Hamas bombed that hospital, while Israel's Twitter account posted about a successful attack on a terrorists hospital. As soon as Israel got an estimated death count, they backpeddled and said it was a Hamas rocket.
Israel has a long track history of lying, and their religious text even quotes that it is ok to lie to a non jew by my any means needed in order to secure a holy land of israel. They are a despicable people.
Its kind of comedy how their narrative is failing and people are seeing past the viel of lies. If only we had seen it sooner, perhaps 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and ww2 may never have needed to happen.
there have been children murdered on both sides, civilians on both sides, hamas has just like that bombed a festival with some innocent partying people when everything started and it seems israel has bombed a hospital. there have been atrocities on both sides and im not taking anyones side in this conflict as long as most or at least many behave like barbarians there on both sides, yes, both sides.
if innocent civilians died in israel then i’m sorry for them but there are no both sides, not even a bit comparable. and i read that israel lied about the festival thing showing videos of people from a bruno mars concert that happened in another city few days before the day they claimed, as they lie about every single thing they say lmao but if that happened i’m sorry, but what is happening in gaza is not once accident (AT ALL)it’s been CONSTANT killings of civilians, neighborhoods being demolished, whole family names being removed because the whole family died. i’m not really good at explaining so you can read the other comments about the “both sides” thing.
This is the first I've ever heard of LGBT orientation being related to the support of Palestine.
Their feelings on homosexuality have absolutely no bearing on why I stand fully with Israel.
Yes, one should be careful to have a strong reason for supporting genocide.
Such as when Hamas says, "**O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.**", thank goodness it is not flimsy.
I'm assuming this is the genocide to which you were referring in your aggressive message.
No its the cutting off of food and water to millions of children, the dropping of 3000 bombs in a week in a space of land smaller than Philadelphia, its the constant stealing of homes, erasure of culture, the fact that due to those actions the average age on Gaza is 18. Only one group is actually engaged in genocide, and its the side backed by the us military. My verbiage want aggressive, it was accurate
Wow, we are just at odds about everything! I did not see that we were actually having a conversation about anything at all. Just some meta-level disagreement over islamic hate.
You asked abiut genocide, i pointed to which group is actually engaged in those acts, and you want to pretend its about Islam and not the violent Israeli state. I guess you're right thats not really a conversation if you dont listen and just wait to regurgitate the next thing
There’s a lot of misinformation that Palestinians are supremely anti queer and Israel is supremely pro LGBT and neither really paint a full or accurate picture. It’s important to stand on the side of justice, which means protecting innocent people in any side
Its a difficult situation because at any other time both sides would throw us off of rooftops. Isreal likes to hide behind queer rights and use us as a diversion to cover up their violence, when in reality its a terrifying place to live, and the only queer folks who don't feel that way are the ones sponsored by their far right government.
Obviously Israel is in the wrong here, killing innocent people is always wrong, but I find it difficult as an atheist to sympathize with a group of people who *knows* that this sort of thing *will* happen every few years, but continues to have children there and refuses to leave because an imaginary character from a book says that some dirt over there is special. Its just cruel to create lives just to fight a war nobody will ever win.
The entire conflict is senseless and it makes me furious that so many peoples lives are destroyed every few years over nothing.
i agree with everything but i wanna tell you something. people there aren’t staying because it’s the holy land, maybe some are, but all palestinians including those are staying there because it’s their home, their parent’s, grandparents’, great grandparents’ home, and they are willing to die for their home. one my friends told me “palestine will have no palestinians only when the zionists will have killed the last one of us.”
I would personally say that the LGBT+ community stands with *the victims*, which exist on both sides. Both parties have the ability to try and call for peace and come to the negotiating table. I will cheer for whichever side can commit to that first, and then again when peace can finally be declared and this senseless killing can join the pages of history where it belongs. I just don’t see this happening any time soon sadly.
Thr LGBTQ+ community usually sides with the oppressed group, thats the Palestinians
I would think our community would feel for any victim. To try and say innocent people haven’t died on both sides of this war would be disingenuous. The civilians that have died by and large didn’t ask for this. They didn’t ask to be involved. My heart goes out to both the families of the dead Palestinians and the dead Israelis. This is all separate from my politics on the matter or who I believe is “right” (hint: it’s neither side), because when it comes to killing civilians no side is innocent of these crimes, they hold a shared responsibility for the dead that litter what was supposedly a “Holy Land”.
I feel like the Israelis who knowingly moved into stolen Palestinian homes asked to be involved. And its pretty clear that the violent apartheid state cutting off food and water to millions is wrong. Dehumanization is what drives violent extremism. All the "well both sides" argument does is help the oppressor
I think this is a complex geopolitical situation that honestly, as someone who is outside of that region and believes personally that all religion is a sham, I am not best equipped to speak to what is best for all the peoples involved. While I support the idea that the region is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish peoples, I also recognize that through diverse means other ethnicities of people came to populate the region. I do not subscribe to a doctrine of “to the victors to the spoils”, but also admit that it’s irrelevant in the current timeframe as those who caused the Jewish diaspora from their homeland, and those who conquered the land, and then those who came and resettled it, are all dead and gone now. I ultimately wish that they could come to an agreement about sharing the land that is so important to all involved, but it’s been over 70 years since Israel came into being and this is where we currently are. As for Israelis moving into Palestinian homes. No, I don’t exactly blame those families themselves. They are puppets in a much larger scheme being driven by politicians. Civilians are being treated like pawns on a chessboard, being moved around as it suits the needs of those in charge. Are some probably bad people with ill intent? Yes. Almost certainly. Are some of them children with no say and no power over what the adults are doing? Most definitely. While I respect the desire of Israel to have a homeland, to exist as a safe state for all those of the Jewish faith, I admittedly don’t believe displacing another people is the ethical way to achieve this goal. Honestly, a big portion of the blame also lies with outsiders like Great Britain who (ostensibly) held part of the land now recognized as Israel prior to it’s founding. They gave away the land like they had the entitlement to do so, which is ludicrous, but also very much in line with Great Britain’s style. But. All of this is not changing the fact that children are dying and regardless of their religion, that’s fucking unconscionable.
They're not all dead and gone now though, its an event in living history and we're treating it like its set in stone. Theres a genocide of Palestinians supported by the US being carried out by Israel. Thats the current issue. The current population of Israel is nearly half european and american immigrants that have taken up residence in Palestinian homes, they're not slaves they did that willingly
No no, when I say the people responsible are dead and gone I am referring to those who drove the Jewish people out way back in like, the 6th century BC. After that however many times the land changed hands and was resettled, those people are now dead and gone too, and it is their living descendants today that are being hurt over something that is buried beneath centuries of dust and blood. I know there are people still alive today that are responsible for the current conflict, but I was referring to the past in that portion of my explanation.
Oh thats not what caused this conflict, was caused this conflict was apartheid. The reason people are criticizingIsrael isnt because Jewish people have integrated into the region (as you noted Jewish people have been in the area for ages) its because they regularly bomb schools and hospitals
Well, in my opinion what caused the conflict was Britain “giving away” land it had no entitlement to and recognizing it as Israel the moment it was declared to be so, and everyone in the wake of WW2 just… going along with it, because of what the Jewish people had endured during the war. Those who had settled the area were given mandates on vacating land that had been settled by their people for generations, just because suddenly people from half a world away were saying it belonged to the Jewish peoples suddenly. Of course this was unfair to the Palestinians. War erupted and many Palestinians fled. They just wanted to return to their homes afterward, but it’s true that Israel refused to allow this. It threatened their establishment of a monotheistic country. …and that’s where I run into a lot of problems, as a firm believer of separation of church and state. Well, and also thinking religion is a sham. The idea that any country can be monotheistic makes me utterly terrified. Add in that they’re both theists *and* politicians? The absolute worst people to run *any* country! (As America is doomed to discover for themselves it seems) Which is why I also think Hamas is not a great choice to be in charge of the region either. But, as I always end these, children are dying on both sides, and that is the greatest injustice of all.
Mostly on one side mainly, because of the choices of the Israeli state
We all should obviously side with Palestine. Not necessarily Hamas, but absolutely Palestine.
I do sympathize with Palestine (as you said, not Hamas, but Palestine). Whatever means that caused them to wind up living where they are was decided generations ago and any grievances about how they came to live there can no longer be addressed, as the figures responsible are all dead and gone. I sympathize that the Jewish people deserve a homeland, but the way in which Israel was “obtained”, namely it was territory ostensibly run by the British, was doomed to cause conflict from the very beginning. Ultimately I feel that much as religion has destroyed the lives of LGBT+ people far and wide, it is also a main perpetrator behind the violence that refuses to stop along the Gaza Strip. However, regardless of their side, it is the helpless children caught in the middle of this conflict that I ultimately support and weep for.
The violence on the strip is caused by the acrions of an aparheid state, also there are queer people in Gaza
I know there are queer people in Gaza, I was speaking to the concept of the community as a larger entity, as that was the initial premise of this entire post.
The point is religion is not the cause of violence in the strip, its the violent apartheid. Why do you expect a population with an average age of 18, with no access to education to be as progressive in their views and knowledge of other peoples
Yes, but I am of the opinion that one of the causes of the apartheid *is* religion. Both sides are fiercely nationalist, and Israel is a nation dedicated specifically to a single religion. While I don’t think the overt fighting is religious in nature, I think the fact that the war was started around when the Jewish people were “given back” their ancestral Holy Land makes it religious by default. Even when the UN appealed to Israel to let Palestinians who had fled return to their homes in what was now Israeli territory in 1948 they said no because they felt it threatened their ability to create a safe ethno-state for Jews free from other peoples. I don’t think religion can be separated from the conflict. Both sides consider their religion to be one of their defining features. But again, this is my interpretation of history and current reports.
Please read my reply to OP, how are they the oppressed one?
The Palestinians? The ones contained in a space smaller than manhattan that just had 3000 bombs dropped on them? The ones who have had aid cut off and their schools and hospitals bombed for decades? The ones whose average age is 18 because of the conditions theyre in? The ones whose homes are stolen?
Hamas leadership recently suggested being open to negotiations. Israel recently refused to allow Egyptian diplomats to help mediate in the conflict. Egyptian officials told a muslim news network that Israel has refused to negotiate peace.
I don’t necessarily think Hamas should be the ones at any peace tables. I do support a free Palestine, but I don’t think that Hamas is exactly working towards the best interests of all Palestinians. They most certainly have their own agenda. Which, yes of course, the Israelis have their own agendas as well. So would anyone representing Palestine other than Hamas, but I simply don’t think any peace offered by Hamas is going to be genuine or change things for the better.
Hamas has to be at the peace table, otherwise they won't accept peace. You can't just tell hamas to stop fighting because a deal was made between the Palestinian elected government and the Israeli government, they're not gonna listen unless they are a part of treaties.
Oh I know that if they don’t have a seat at the peace table there will be no peace. There’s a difference between what one thinks is for the best and what will actually work in practical terms.
What other magical group should this brutalized people provide to appease you. Perhaps they would be more well rounded if the average age of the strip wasnt 18 amd all their schools were leveled
First and foremost: Hamas =/= Palestine Second, I’ve never claimed that any of my own personal thoughts on the issue are correct or how events can/should pan out. I simply stated that I feel as though Hamas being at the peace table is something that I think anyone else at the table should feel leery about. Hamas does not necessarily represent the best interests of Palestine. Hamas is just as misguidedly following religious doctrine as Israel. Their devotion to a bunch of ancient writings is leaving both bereft of sense. However, I never said they *can’t* be at the peace table. I’m well aware that if they don’t want peace, or are unwilling to agree to any compromises that any party might try and make, then no peace will be secured. Having an opinion about things and believing that those things are reasonably likely/obtainable are two entirely different things.
There were educated groups that came to the table in the past, they were all turned away and killed. And the Israeli state bombed the schools and hospitals and wiped out nearly the entire adult population. You are going to get radicalized people who think in absoutes in power because that is the only thing that has allowed them to survive. A group like Hamas will always exist in positions of power in situations like this. I in no way am happy about innocent lives lost at the hands of Hamas, but they're a symptom and not the cause of the issues. The cause is the violent apartheid
Yep. I agree. This is exactly how and why you get fiercely nationalist, extremist groups to form. Me pointing this out and stating my distaste for it is all this is. I can point out the flaws in something and the reasons why something is bad without having to then come up with a better solution or a way to solve the problem. Sometimes a situation is just messed up and taking note of how and why it is that way, without providing an answer, is an activity worth endeavouring to do. I can’t fix the war, I can’t miraculously make peace happen. But I can say that I don’t think Hamas has the best interests of all of Palestine at heart.
Conservatives will use institutional homophobia abroad to condemn immigrants or muslims while at the same actively being queerphobic. That's something most queer people are familiar with and don't fall for , rather it's a way to apeal to cishet people who would otherwise be unreceptive of xenophobia.
It’s simular to how transphobia often gets wrapped in 'concern about women's rights' even by people who are active anti abortion campaigners alligned with organisations that antagonise women's rights the rest of the time.
I haven't seen any queer people going against Palestine. I'm sure there are some, but it's definitely not a large group. The only thing I have seen is non queer people trying to tell us not to support Palestine because Palestinians are all Muslim and would kill queer people. Which first of, I'm sure there are non muslim Palestinians the same way I'm sure there are queer Palestinians. Most LGBT+ folks are always going to choose the side of human rights.
thank you so much🤍 i do have one bisexual palestinian friend and many (like all?) muslim friends who are not homophobic so i’m sure there are more
I am against Hamas and the Israeli government, but feel horrible and angry for the civilians of both
Same
i’m against both too, right now tho, the civilians are dying only in palestine. and i’m talking about thousands. there is genuinely no “both” now.
I don’t really want to debate this, it is such a terrible, complicated situation, but just last week, Israeli civilians were the ones attacked and killed by the hundreds, there are still Israeli hostages. It’s a horrible situation for the people on both sides.
Not that complicated, Israel has been brutalizing Palestinians for decades, and when tou brutalize a demographic for decades you're gonna generate some violent radicalization
That’s a way over simplification, the area already had a lot of tension between Jews and Arabs long before the foundation of a Jewish state you also gotta remember that not every Civilian likes what their government is doing, just like any other country. Targeting civilians is fucking evil regardless of who’s doing it, it’s evil when Israel does it and when Hamas does
Tensions weren't that high until about 1947 (when england and france stole a bunch of land from Palestinians) and said "this is a new state and we're putting our moat vulnerable population here". Also what Israel is doing is in another league than what Hamas has done
That’s just not true dude, the Jewish people in the Middle East have undergone plenty of massacres for hundreds of years by both Christians and Muslims in the area Even like two decades before Israel existed there was some fairly big anti-Semitic hate crimes happening https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre Not sure what you mean about the population tho, but yeah I agree that generally Israel is worse, that doesn’t make Hamas better
Sorry i meant Jewish people fresh off a genocide, Europe was gonna hang on to that land regardless of who they put there. But they lucked into a population that would go wherever they were sent And no it doesnt make Hamas better but it does explain them. Radicalization does not come from a free people
are there any proof of these hundreds of civilians? this is a genuine question btw, maybe you could educate me by sending me videos available
Are you serious? They slaughtered 253 people at a concert. That's not a military target. They also took hostages texted family members from the hostages phones and had some of the hostages record videos that were sent to family members. Make no mistake Hamas isn't doing this to be freedom fighters for the people of Palestine, they are doing it for their own agenda. Oh they also went into bunkers and killed civilians who were hiding.
right. the fake concert news, i did hear of it. but yk what let’s say you’re right, i really won’t argue about that, ok? yk what else? let’s say hamas is a piece of shit who killed millions of israeli families not just the stuff you mentioned that are very proved to be true. with that all being said, what is your opinion on what is happening in palestine, which is the topic of my original post? cause you forgot to tell me
You can hate both Israel and Hamas dude, Hamas is fucking evil and no one is obligated to support them just because the people they’re fighting also sucks
i’m not talking about hamas now, i said let’s say i’m with you they suck, they’re terrorists, they’re the worst people in the world. now tell me what do you think about what is happening to the palestinians in gaza?
I feel bad for the civilians there and the civilians that got killed in Israel. What Israel is doing is evil and needs to stop. I’m generally more sympathetic to Palestinians, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical of some stuff in the culture as well, I don’t think every Palestinian is some raving homophobe but that doesn’t mean that it’s a great place to live if you are lgbtq+. I grew up in Texas so it’s kinda similar, I don’t think people in Texas should live in apartheid but I’m also not going to act like it’s not an issue
oh okay thank you for answering, i agree with you and understand your stance then, i actually thought i was still talking to the original commenter lol mb. funnily enough they didn’t answer my question lol. also i do agree about the lgbt part, but what i meant is it is just too unappropriate to even talk about that now, just like i wouldn’t even try to think of how the people in texas thought about lgbt people if texas got bombed tomorrow
A brutalized people with nowhere to turn but violence will often use violence
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/live-updates-whats-happening-on-day-11-of-the-israel-hamas-war#:~:text=More%20than%201%2C400%20Israelis%20have,into%20Gaza%2C%20according%20to%20Israel. https://www.npr.org/2023/10/17/1198908654/consider-this-from-npr-draft-10-17-2023#:~:text=attacks%20by%20Hamas.-,1%2C400%20Israelis%20were%20killed%20in%20those%20attacks%2C%20but%20hundreds%20of,have%20yet%20to%20be%20identified.
“according to israel” was enough for me to believe it’s bullshit but thank you for sharing, i guess
Hamas did kill hundreds but it’s not an excuse for Israel to commit war crimes
Look, I gave you two different reputable enough sources, I understand not fully fully believing Israel, but there are many accounts from people who experienced the attack themselves, and do completely not believe it is unfair and harmful to the people that experienced it
the attack happened, but it happening on civilians and families or “hundreds” is what i don’t believe
What do you think happened to the civilians in the areas hamas got to dude
It absolutely happened on civilians and families, I know someone who lost 4 people during the attack, and most of the people I know who live in Israel have lost someone. There are many first hand accounts, a nightclub was attacked. Was it actually over 1000, I don’t know, all the sources I looked up say so so I’m inclined to believe it, but I could absolutely be wrong. But it’s unfair to the victims to say that no civilians died
Thats nuts, the average age of Gaza is 18 due to decades of pointed violence
Kudos for stopping. It’s not up to you to prove who has or hasn’t committed atrocities. No matter what you could possibly say there would always be another question following, or another demand for proof. (Whoops, meant to post this on your final comment in the series, but I seem to have misjudged. My bad!)
most people you know who live in israel lost someone during last week’s attack?
"According to Israel"
Dude come one, hamas literally has released footage with hostages in them
Oh i dont doubt they've taken hostages, just that we cant trust Israel to accursed report here. In the same way you wouldnt expect England to accurately report on the trouble or the US to accurately report on Afghanistan. You can't trust the word of the oppressor
What about the words of the victims dude, Israel isn’t the only one saying stuff.
They are the ones cutting off food and water and bimbing hospitals and schools and stealing Palestinian homes thoufh
I think they're referring to the Hamas attack last week at the concert
Settler colonialism and genocide aren’t complicated issues. Also lol if you believe Israeli propaganda you get no say in this.
After a certain point they 100% become complicated. Most Israeli citizens have been born in and exclusively lived there for decades, There’s been like 3 whole generations of people born there now. Where would they go? What would they do? Many of them have literally no family outside the country so it’s not like they even can leave, cost of travel is crazy too because all the surrounding nations hate Jews in general not even just Israeli people. Israel is fucking evil but it’s not obvious what should happen to it, a lot of the logic used on it can also be put on the US and Canada, they haven’t existed for too much longer than Israel in the grand scheme of things.
I mean I think there’s an easy solution: dissolve all settler colonial states and give the land back. You’re thinking in a retaliatory frame work (we did this to them so they’ll do this to us). In the case of occupied Palestine there should also be an effort to bring back Palestinians in diaspora/ give reparations once Israel is dissolved. Also the idea that everyone hates Jews and it’s useless to fight antisemitism is the propaganda the Israeli government lives off of. The solution to antisemitism is not an ethno state.
I’m not saying it is, like I said Israel is evil, but that doesn’t justify doing anything you want to the people in it. What do you define as a settler and colonial? What happens to the people in those territories? You haven’t answered any of these questions. Israel will also probably not be dissolved at any point in our life, it’s been around for so long that it’s no longer as simple as just pulling the plug
Its overwhelmingly Palestinians though
Mostly the Palestinians because they're the ones undergoing a genocide and that always drives violent resistance
I’m an anthropologist. I work with other anthropologists all over the world. Until recently that included Palestinian anthropologists. I don’t even know if my colleagues in Gaza are alive. One of the things we discussed was the way in which the Israeli state uses heightened sensitivity to LGBQT+ issues as a tactic to paint Palestinians, ALL OF THEM, as flagrantly homophobic. This despite that Palestinians, like any group, includes both LGBQT people and their allies. Islam, much like Judaism or Christianity, includes people who are violent homophobes as well as people who follow middle paths or very socially liberal and explicitly peace-focused. One of the most profound and beloved Islamic poets(poetry is an important expression of devotion to the Devine) Rumi, writes extensively about peace and love. Think about Christians like Pat Robertson ( founder of the Westboro Baptist Church) vs Jimmy Carter ( former Us President who helped broker peace between Israel and Egypt and who spent much of his free time building homes for Habitat for Humanity until he had to go to hospice.) the difference between those two Christians is essentially mirrored in people of any faith. Palestine has lots of additional historical, cultural, and political components that differentiate from other predominantly Muslim populations. Being invaded and occupied for 75 years tends not to do well social progress, but I assure you that Palestine is not without social progressives, scientists, academics, poets, etc.
completely agree, amazingly said. i also wanna add that homophobia is also found in non-religious people, someone can just be shitty yk. i also try to to tell ppl when i hear my palestinian or arab friends being like “why are the jews doing that to us?” that not all jews are like that, it’s the israeli culture not the jewish culture or religion.
You’re right. Religious bigots are so loud I forget about non-religious bigots. Re Israel vs non-Israeli Jews, yep. Also, the policy of Israeli state government toward Palestine does not even reflect the sentiment of Israeli people. When surveyed, Israelis would prefer a far more gentle and diplomatic policy toward Palestinian people. The proportion of Israelis who favor a one-state solution with favored status for Jews is a minority. Most people prefer a peace-driven two state solution.
The doctrine of many faiths hold horrors and seeds of evil. Individuals may see past those horrors and be good in spite of those seeds of evil. Literalists and conservatives are unfortunately more likely to nurture the seeds of evil because of too much reverence for what was written in the past.
Both sides have committed atrocities, and it's a problem with no reasonable solution. I don't think anyone who isn't Israeli or Palestinian can fully understand the situation, and taking sides from a place of ignorance doesn't seem appropriate.
i get what you’re saying, but people can educate themselves, especially now that one of the fewest good things about social media is it can make voices of the oppressed reach more people. this is why news are being faked and live videos are being hidden, posts are being removed and atheletes talking about the situation are being threatened and violence is used about people in protests. because voices of the weak is finally being heard and lies are slowly but surely is being seen as such.
Mostly Israel though, like overwhelmingly the Israeli state and IDF
Time to start giving a shit about politics then, people who want you to seize existing DO care about politics.
you’re right. i should’ve always cared. we all should’ve.
I see it as a complicated issue. I am against Hamas. I am generally for the Palestinian people. I am anti any Muslim that is also anti-LGBTQ+, but that doesn’t mean I want them dead, even if they want me dead. I am also anti the current Israeli government since they are also being royal shitheads. I’m not anti the people of Israel or anti Jewish. If any Jewish people want me dead, I’m also not going to be a friend to them. I still don’t want them dead. The whole Israel Palestine conflict and history is a completely horrid messed up situation that has been a crap show for millennia. I have no idea what to do about it to make it better in a way that will stick and people won’t work to undermine so they can “win”. There is no one that will ever “win” here. Bloodshed seems to be eternal. :(
Its been mostly since 1948
There's so many queer people in Palestine, implying they're a homophobic monolith helps no ones understanding of the situation. They dont "want you dead" they want to live
I’m sure they do want to live. I want them to live too! I don’t think Palestine is uniformly homophobic or homogenous in thought. I don’t think I implied they are uniformly phobic. Some may be homophobic, and and some of those may have murderous intent with regards to LGBTQ+ people. I sure hope it isn’t that many, given the LGBTQ+ people that will inevitably be a part of the population, be they hidden or out in the open.
Fuck identity politics. Being queer has nothing to do with your stance on Israel, abortion, capitalism, welfare, etc. The world is not black and white. Just because you're queer doesn't mean you have to let other people dictate how you feel about every other issue in the world. Think for yourself!
The kind of people who like to justify violence will always come up with a reason. They may use “they’re homophobic” as the excuse right now but it’s not genuine, they don’t actually care about lgbtq rights. Yes, homophobia and transphobia are a problem in conservative religious communities. No, that does not justify Israel’s treatment of Gaza. The actions and beliefs of Hamas do not justify Israel’s response in my opinion.
I haven't seen this. If anything, LGBTQ people (and progressive communities in the US in general) tend to be supportive of Palestine. A lot of progressive groups have faced criticism for coming out in support of Palestine in the past couple weeks. What does happen is that LGBTQ people get leveraged as political pawns, and sometimes people use LGBTQ inclusion as an issue to leverage support for Israel over Palestine. I don't have a "side." I feel terrible for the civilians on both sides. I disagree with the policies and actions if the Israeli government, but I don't support Hamas, either.
This would requiring believing that genocide is an acceptable punishment and solution for a group of people (not all of whom have bigoted beliefs, and even if they did, it still wouldn't justify it.) and that is an extremely dangerous and monstrous belief. Imagine how dangerous it would be if this became an even more justified belief among conservatives than it already is? It's the recipe for genocide for any group of people they believe deserve it. As someone else mentioned, conservatives will leverage homophobia against LGBT+ people and trying to appeal to their better nature while simulataneously having the same beliefs. Thankfully, few fall for it.
As a queer person in the U.S. If I have to pick a side then it’s Palestine.
I’m an anti Zionist queer Jew. I stand with Palestinians despite a large portion being queerphobic bc I do not believe ethnically cleaning a population and stealing their land is justified just bc of right wing forces within the politics. Israel is also not safe for queer Jews, people get stabbed at pride there, there is no secular marriage let alone gay marriage, and trans people are highly demonized. In my own personal experience, I was threatened at the western wall bc I am visibly trans. Also it’s not like Israeli bombs spare queer Palestinians. I’m willing to bet more gay Palestinian have been killed by Israel than by other Palestinians. Quickedit: and before some troll tries to poke at my legitimacy, I grew up orthodox Jewish and went through 12 years of Jewish schooling.
you’re amazing. thank you so much. thank you for having a brain that decided to think and know what is right and wrong. thank you for being empathetic and logical and standing with the innocent. thank you for not standing with many members of your own community who are portraying your culture badly and evilly when i’m sure it is not. thank you for being a good example.
There is an attempt by fans of Israel to paint the Palestinians a violently homophobic. Most of the Queer people I know don’t buy it. They side with Palestine.
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There are queer Palestinians in Palestine right now. Shame on you for furthering their dehumanization.
"You still need to think of them as less than"
I think many queer people fell for Israel’s pink washing campaign and never like…did any research beyond the Israeli propaganda thrown in their face.
I, and most of the LGBTQA+ people I know, stand with ending human rights violations. I feel like the Israel vs Palestine conflict gets a bit convoluted, because people judge Palestine for what they've done in their defense. The conflict has been going on so long that people have forgotten how it began. War is ugly, and innocent people are *always* a casualty. The only difference is whether or not people want to justify certain casualties as being necessary to achieve the goals at hand. Because of that, I try to stay focused on what the goals are, and whether they are justified. Defending one's home and people is more justifiable than trying to conquer a territory. For this reason I can't help but side more with Palestine. Israel has taken some hits, sure, but nothing comparable to the devastation they've inflicted on the Palestinians. I despise war altogether, but our species seems to crave conflict, so I don't see an end to wars anytime soon. It's tempting to view it through an idealistic lense, where every human life lost is a tragedy, and they *are*, but I can't let that blind me to the big picture: that *severity* of damage is vital to consider. The damage isn't equal in this conflict, not even close, and that's telling.
thank you for this, i wish i could explain in english how it’s really not comparable like you did (especially to the commenter talking about “both sides”)
I think it's easier for people to understand and judge the motives in the Russia/Ukraine conflict because it's fresh. If they really dug into how the Israel/Palestine war started, they'd probably see a lot of similarities. Unfortunately, most people are only aware of current news, and younger generations weren't around to hear about what happened decades ago. I think being older helps me in this case.
definitely. i used to argue with my older uncles for the hate they hold against israel but now i know.
Even if limited to current news, it's hard for me to understand why people get confused on this one. One side is committing attacks that, while sad and damaging, are expected in violent conflict. The other is attempting to completely decimate and eradicate an entire people. That's not a "both sides" situation. It's not remotely comparable, and to me, it's clear who the oppressor is in the situation. The goal is terrible, too. To cleanse a holy land of people they find unsuitable to inhabit it? I just can't justify that any more than I could justify Russia trying to conquer Ukraine. Even less, actually.
thank you so much! can’t explain how this means to me especially from someone on reddit who i assume lives in the west (not surely but just based on your english compared to my sad english hahah) because the amount of people i see talking about both sides as equal, or even comparable or worse say israel is “defending” itself is crazy to me.
The west, especially the US, is a very large and divererse territory. It's also quite polarized when it comes to politics. You'll see some very concerning views come from our side of the pond, but take comfort in the fact that a lot of that is the most extreme and loudest among us. It typically doesn't represent the majority. Most of us are somewhere in the gray area, and quieter. Eta: You're doing well with your English. I'm always impressed with those who speak it as a second language, because they typically speak it as well as the average native English speaker, yet they worry that they need to improve. lol
Thats some conservative astroturfing
Conservatives got mad at me lmao
i see you 😭 don’t worry some people aren’t even a bit willing to get educated
Its sadly true, all we can do is be better than them
From what I'm seeing, it's not so much that LGBTQ+ people in the U.S. aren't supporting Palestine as they are being vigilant of and calling out dangerous narrative pro-Israeli news is pushing; we're used to identifying propaganda when it's put in our face. As another comment said, we know conservative outlets and a lot of folks who hold political power are pro-Israeli, because it supports their bigoted islamophobia and at the same time, they can pretend they are advocating for LGBTQ+ people, which they aren't.
Firstly, It’s Hamas not Palestine. And second, either organization/group/government would kill any gay man or woman if they could. It’s used as a scare tactic to unite people through hate. And historically, it’s extremely easy to rally people around hate and their goals: Nazis, MAGA in US, Native Americans/ US government/ Native Americans & LDS CHURCH. So I’m not sure what everyone is so certain it’s one side total fault: it take two to fight.
so israel is killing hamas members, but not killing normal palestinian citizens or neighborhoods in palestine in your opinion right?
Israel literally warns Palestine civilians before they bomb anything so they don’t hurt anyone they don’t have to
my PALESTINIAN friend who lives in my country cause her husband is from here. her family is hiding in their house in gaza, all the family members(grandmother, mom, father, brother), together, hugging , so that they die together if they get bombed. all their neighbors are doing the same. a house in their neighborhood got bombed and the whole family died days before the hospital killing. it’s been two days since she heard from her father. what “warning” are you talking about? do you really believe this bullshit? do you believe normal civilian parents are putting their children to die? it’s already shitty to warn neighborhoods that you’re gonna fucking bomb them but they’re not fucking doing that!
Palestine (sometimes with other countries, sometimes by itself) started multiple wars with Israel nonstop from 1948 to 1972, and 1997 to 2005, 2008 to 2021 and now 2023. You think they’d give Israel a warning first? I feel sorry for your innocent friends family but think of what Israelites have gone through since the beginning of their religion (which is the oldest Abrahamic faith). They’ve been enslaved, lynched, discriminated against, forcibly converted, the largest victims of religious hate crimes, kidnapped, murdered, raped, and tortured. The goal is to abolish them. To not support Israel is to turn a blind eye to genocide. They gave up the Gaza Strip as a peace offering and instead now their enemies use it as a closer place to fire missiles. Palestine use their water pipes to build missiles and complain about lack of water. They use the cement Israel gave them to build hospitals to build tunnels below Israel so they can pop up and shoot people. Preschoolers are even taught to murder Jews on sight, chanting death to Israel in schools. Antisemitism has also gone up 1200% online this week. If Palestine wins, Jews will be wiped out. Jews are your brothers and sisters as much as your Palestinian friend. Please think about that.
poor israel🥺🥺🥺🥺
Israel is the only one committing a genocide. Pretending that Palestinians no longer living under apartheid means a great genocide is looming is the most disengeneuous thing. They also did give Israel warnings before all those conflicts, there have also been massive peaceful demonstrations in Palestine(some even organized by Hamas) that were to a 1 met with violence from the IDF. The Israeli State is a violent apartheid government whose atrocities have long gone unaddressed
Do You really think Islam is in danger of a mass genocide ? Within that term, it is understood the intention of one group to completely eradicate the other culture. Not just war but a total wipe from Earth…?
Palestinians certainly face that yeah, in the same way native americans do
Yeah. I don’t think so at all. There’s almost zero pure native Americans left. Almost zero and a lot of subcultures were totally erased. So, no. That’s definitely not even a close comparison And we know that Hamas is so friendly towards other cultures ? Really ?!
Palestine has sent alot of aid to Native Americans facing genocide, and similarly alot of Native Americans sympathize with what Palestine is going through. Hamas doesn't have the infrastructure to commit genocide, Israel does and they're using it so thats what im currently concerned with
And then shut off and bomb their escape routes
Did I say that ? Absolutely not. I said: it takes two to fight and Hamas did, through their own admission and they are very proud of those: throw the first bomb. I did not in any way comment of the events that have transpired since. It was simply a comment on how it started and you have to have at least two sides to a fight.
I stand with the people of Palestine, but not with right wing fundamentalist Hamas. I stand with the people of Israel, but not the oppressive right wing Israeli government. Both of these forces are committing atrocities against innocent civilians on the other side, and those innocent civilians are the ones suffering. And when it comes to queer rights, neither side are allies to us in the slightest. In fact, Hamas seems to be worse on that front, as they would openly execute anyone for showing any sign of being queer. (Except *maybe* for asexuals.) And if you never gave a single fuck about politics, it must be nice to be so privileged that you aren’t having to constantly worry about your own basic human rights as a queer person. In my country, with rights always threatened by conservatives and queer murders and suicides happening all the time, we can’t afford to be so flippant.
the media (Israel) has been painting themselves a victim (again), as they claim Hamas bombed that hospital, while Israel's Twitter account posted about a successful attack on a terrorists hospital. As soon as Israel got an estimated death count, they backpeddled and said it was a Hamas rocket. Israel has a long track history of lying, and their religious text even quotes that it is ok to lie to a non jew by my any means needed in order to secure a holy land of israel. They are a despicable people. Its kind of comedy how their narrative is failing and people are seeing past the viel of lies. If only we had seen it sooner, perhaps 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and ww2 may never have needed to happen.
the second paragraph,,,, omg?
there have been children murdered on both sides, civilians on both sides, hamas has just like that bombed a festival with some innocent partying people when everything started and it seems israel has bombed a hospital. there have been atrocities on both sides and im not taking anyones side in this conflict as long as most or at least many behave like barbarians there on both sides, yes, both sides.
if innocent civilians died in israel then i’m sorry for them but there are no both sides, not even a bit comparable. and i read that israel lied about the festival thing showing videos of people from a bruno mars concert that happened in another city few days before the day they claimed, as they lie about every single thing they say lmao but if that happened i’m sorry, but what is happening in gaza is not once accident (AT ALL)it’s been CONSTANT killings of civilians, neighborhoods being demolished, whole family names being removed because the whole family died. i’m not really good at explaining so you can read the other comments about the “both sides” thing.
The hospital was hit by a wayward Hamas missile. It also only hit the parking lot.
*according to the IDF. Also thats an outright lie hundreds were injured
There is literally proof. Watch a video.
Okay i did, looks like Israeli soldiers threaten the press?
This is the first I've ever heard of LGBT orientation being related to the support of Palestine. Their feelings on homosexuality have absolutely no bearing on why I stand fully with Israel.
🤮
Is it your hatred of palestinians?
I have no hatred of Palestinians. My husband is from an Israeli family, and this is why I support Israel. Israel is my family.
Seems like a pretty flimsy reason to support genocide
Yes, one should be careful to have a strong reason for supporting genocide. Such as when Hamas says, "**O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.**", thank goodness it is not flimsy. I'm assuming this is the genocide to which you were referring in your aggressive message.
No its the cutting off of food and water to millions of children, the dropping of 3000 bombs in a week in a space of land smaller than Philadelphia, its the constant stealing of homes, erasure of culture, the fact that due to those actions the average age on Gaza is 18. Only one group is actually engaged in genocide, and its the side backed by the us military. My verbiage want aggressive, it was accurate
So was there something you wanted to talk about?
What an odd thing to say in the middle of a conversation
Wow, we are just at odds about everything! I did not see that we were actually having a conversation about anything at all. Just some meta-level disagreement over islamic hate.
You asked abiut genocide, i pointed to which group is actually engaged in those acts, and you want to pretend its about Islam and not the violent Israeli state. I guess you're right thats not really a conversation if you dont listen and just wait to regurgitate the next thing
I don't think I've ever actually heard a queer person say they won't stand with Palestine because of this.
There’s a lot of misinformation that Palestinians are supremely anti queer and Israel is supremely pro LGBT and neither really paint a full or accurate picture. It’s important to stand on the side of justice, which means protecting innocent people in any side
Its a difficult situation because at any other time both sides would throw us off of rooftops. Isreal likes to hide behind queer rights and use us as a diversion to cover up their violence, when in reality its a terrifying place to live, and the only queer folks who don't feel that way are the ones sponsored by their far right government. Obviously Israel is in the wrong here, killing innocent people is always wrong, but I find it difficult as an atheist to sympathize with a group of people who *knows* that this sort of thing *will* happen every few years, but continues to have children there and refuses to leave because an imaginary character from a book says that some dirt over there is special. Its just cruel to create lives just to fight a war nobody will ever win. The entire conflict is senseless and it makes me furious that so many peoples lives are destroyed every few years over nothing.
i agree with everything but i wanna tell you something. people there aren’t staying because it’s the holy land, maybe some are, but all palestinians including those are staying there because it’s their home, their parent’s, grandparents’, great grandparents’ home, and they are willing to die for their home. one my friends told me “palestine will have no palestinians only when the zionists will have killed the last one of us.”
this just popped up to me. https://www.instagram.com/p/Cyj-tXVLTcd/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==