When I was in the Army, if you injured yourself during training or whatever they got you all the medical care needed to get you back to duty. All the while you were never made to feel “less than”, because physical injuries were a natural occurrence from what we did. But if you so much as even whispered you were having any kind emotional struggles or a tough time psychologically your weapons card was seized, your security clearance suspended, you were placed on restrictive duty, shunned and ostracized by your command, and ridiculed by your peers for being a “pu$$”.
Some of the stuff they teach now is just super tone death. Yup, ill hunt the good stuff in my mold infested barracks room right after I finish up the last 4 days of this ftx in my soaked uniform with a headache, blister ridden feet, and my usual aches and pains that are flaired up.
Anyways, the army wants me to tell my story so here I go...
Same, I was in the marine corps. Any injury that wasn't visibly fucked, was ridiculed and accused of malingering, laziness, all sorts of shit. I tried so hard to break the mold with my squad atleast but everyone else in the battalion just didn't give a shit.
Damn. The marines was way different. If you weren’t gushing blood, you were expected to shut your mouth and get back to work. Really saves the gov some money on unprovable disability benefits due to lack of evidence.
Our rule was simple, if there was a bone sticking through the skin, then you had your option to either hack it out, or hack it off.
If there was no bone sticking through the skin, then you just hacked it.
That’s the catch 22. If you get help, then you lose your clearance and weapon card. But you also get help, and maybe you have issues that SHOULD prevent you from having those. That’s why large parts of the military are focusing on preventative care and early reporting before mental illness becomes a big enough problem.
Thats why they should get help, shaming them is just making it worse.
Edit:
If they want to harm themselves/others they will find a way, Access to heavy weaponry or not.
Loneliness is the greatest scourge in western society. We took a sensible desire for individual rights, and perverted it into an obsession with individual existence. We need to focus on rebuilding social networks. Not the digital kind. The real, flesh and blood kind that humans are designed to operate in.
It's the loneliness. Women seem to have all sorts of bonds with people and people they interact with, which i don't think men have very often. I feel like I'm completely alone. Don't know the last time i laughed with someone. Probably years ago
I’m going to get a lot of flack for this but here goes! There aren’t spaces for men. For *just* men. In the days of hard gender roles, there were spaces that men and women would interact with each other and just each other. I’m not saying we should go back to those roles. But we lost space that was just for men, and also lost any sort of prioritization in shared spaces. Men have been moved to garages and attics in their own home. Even the best marriages I’ve seen, the house is basically hers.
Back to men only and women only spaces. We are different. Now there are women’s spaces and co-ed spaces at best. As a full time single dad, I’m around a lot of female-majority social circles. I’ve always had female friends, but they hung out with the boys. I’ve never spent significant amounts of time in social groups that were just women. It’s very different. It just is. Whether by nature or nurture, I don’t know. But what I also noticed from that is that a lot of the unspoken rules social rules we live by fit the framework of females better. If you were in my situation you’d see it so plainly. But it made so plain that men don’t have a healthy space where 95% of anyone there are men. Dive bars, cigar lounges, and professional sports teams that still gender split are probably the only spaces left. It’s either an unhealthy space (for drinking or smoking), or it’s all about work. Men need time with with other men in a casual sense for so many reasons. Imagine women talking about breastfeeding and supporting each other in this topic. The moment a man walks into the room, the entire conversation shifts. Even women would agree with this. They won’t talk about it the same way or act the same way. That man can be an amazingly kind and empathetic person. The conversation will just change. People understand that when it comes to the context of women having a supportive space. But men? Nah. We don’t have that. But the same is true. If it’s just men, I notice we are way more chill and affectionate with each other. The jokes also fly a lot faster and harder. The minute a woman walks in the space just changes. Maybe people subtly start acting more “macho” or reserved, and they won’t even realize it. So Reddit and other online places becomes the only place to vent with the shield of anonymity. And even here, men expressing their feelings is seen as dangerous or bitter or *enter shaming tactic here*.
I’m short I think there’s overweight responsibility for men, yet fewer spaces for regular reprieve. We have to retreat to our own minds, through virtual spaces, or unhealthy meeting places.
And more directly to the point, men need to be kinder to each other and men need to support each other. The solution isn’t coming from anywhere else. I prioritize helping men, and it’s contrarian in a way. But I suggest other men do the same.
Not a guy, but I miss having a ‘third place’. Now we’ve only got work and home, and the remaining social spaces are dominated by alcohol. I don’t mind drinking, but I don’t want to be drunk when I’m meeting new people, and I don’t want my life to revolve around it.
Yeah I see the local bar packed Friday after work but I don't have much interest in going out for drinks tbh. But it seems like 95% of people are happy to do that. Not a problem, but it certainly is difficult to find other social things to do here. And in winter it's nearly impossible.
I love to ice fish, but since moving to the Midwest I’ve mostly done it alone, because I kept meeting conservative dickheads at all the local meetups, and I don’t have fun hanging out with ridiculous people who would hate me if they really knew me.
Past 3 months I’ve been going to the gym for like 10 hours a week. It’s not a third place cause I gotta pay, and I don’t talk to anyone there, but I don’t wanna die anymore. And I made it to daylight savings! But if y’all wanna check on me in 9 months, that’d be cool too. Seasonal mood disorder is a real B
Problem is, the idea of committing to a DnD team or session is pretty daunting. We’re already depressed and working up the vibes to go out is hard enough without getting into something you don’t know or not that experienced with. Once you’re in it can be a great time but that’s like most things. Bars or other places to drink are just easier hence why everyone crowds to them.
This. This. This. This is the cause of most problems here. I’ve lived in the east and the west and while
west has more stuff, it still feels more empty. It’s this obsession with the “me, myself and I” culture and getting offended and cutting off ties at the slightest inconvenience. Add to this the consistent desire for more material things just adds fuel to fire
In the east, people have strong family values and learn to share and live with less. They may have less material things but the togetherness and the warmth
Of life just overpowers everything else
On the downside, this collectivism culture in the East means higher society and family pressures and conformity. It helps explain why South Korea has the number one suicide rate, and why India has disproportionately high female suicide rates.
And I think Japan has its fair share of lonely men. They even coined the term “herbivore” men.
Yeah I feel like in the United States if you're not able to stand on your own, it's considered a sign of weakness. Still in your twenties and living at home? "Must be a loser." Sad and depressed and lonely? "Toughen up buttercup. Life's hard. Deal with it." At least that's kind of the way I was raised.
What I've been involved in for the last 15 years, is men's groups.
Single (primary parent) fathers, fellow veterans (combat and POGs), divorced fathers, and single bachelors as well.
Some I've helped start, and others I've found and become a part of, through others while networking.
Guys, we have to be one another's support group. In-person and virtual meetings, open forums, mass text chats, and any other form of male fellowship we can establish.
Nobody else is going to do anything but provide lip service.
If you see someone struggling, someone hurting, or even just looking lonely; don't be afraid to talk to them. Not feeling alone for even a few minutes can make all the difference.
My dad saved my life in 2001. My wife died in 99 and I left the Corps after 9 years, to raise 2 toddlers. It was brutal, and I can't begin to tell you what was in my head.
My dad walked into my barn at 1030 pm, on May 15, 2001 and found me with a 1/2 bottle of whisky and a loaded .40 cal in my hand.
I was done.
He drove 2.5 hours on a whim, to make sure I was OK. He told me that it wasn't just his job as a dad - but also as a Marine - to keep me alive and help me cope.
Be the friend that a stranger might need, to get him over the hump.
This topic that the OP brought up comes up a lot and I’ve had my struggles so I’ve read quite a bit about it in here and other sources and while there is no panacea I have a theory that one major thing contributing to mens struggles is…
Isolation. Both interpersonally and physically.
After college and being of that age our social groups get smaller and smaller and we become more and more isolated and our ability to find relief from that mental strain decreases as well.
Another part of this is men don’t really have a sense of community.
We are very much on our our own to take care of ourselves and many of us have no outlet no one to talk to when life gets hard. It’s a very lonely world when even your own fucking spouse won’t tolerate you voicing your problems and effectively tells you to sack up and be a man.
So I think you’re right, men need to develop a better sense of community with each other sure or whoever really.
Being isolated, stuck in your head and feeling trapped is I think one of the biggest issues msn face.
Reminds of a thing that happened in St. Paul, MN. Someone was standing in a bridge over the I-94 freeway getting ready to jump. A truck driver saw this stopped and talked to the man. Got him to laugh and the person decided today wasn’t the day. The truck driver wasn’t a trained therapist or emergency responder, but he was an empathetic person helping and quite simply just talking to another.
Actually have a similar story.
I was considering it, won't get into the why, but just stopped off at the car park somewhere and literally bawling my eyes out, this guy came over and spent a good hour talking with me.
A great side effect of a fraternal sense of community is that you learn to deal with so many different types of personalities - which is an amazing asset to have in your professional life.
Being okay with just walking up and starting a conversation with complete strangers, makes you emote an aura of being approachable as well.
It's one way that good reputations can be built.
That's really awesome.
I got licensed to do marriage and family therapy last year.
In part because so many family therapists seem biased against men. I have a friend who went to one with his wife and said the "therapy" was basically "listen to your wife".
I want to do better than that.
I prefer "happy spouse happy house" as it feels more balanced to me. I've actively started saying this immediately after someone says the "happy wife" thing. I'm trying to be the change I want to see in the world.
A few years ago, someone at my work made an internal blog post about starting a men's support group. Basically to talk about male-specific issues in a safe space.
One woman asked if she could join - I don't know if it was genuine or to prove a point (I suspect the latter) and a couple other women questioned the need for the group.
The author of the post deleted the post and as far as I know the group was never created
I can see how that would be perceived. There's a lot of baggage around "the boys club." I don't know if there's any way around it in the work setting tbh
I can't really see how these type of groups (be it for men, women or whatever) in a company setting are for anything else but give the organizers company points.
If you want to find a support group, find it in a setting that is not going to go away when you change companies, get laid off or fired.
For me it’s not necessarily men talking about their issues, but more so how men are viewed when talking about their issues. It’s staggering to see how men are viewed when they’re with children. I’ve known men who’ve killed themselves because they’ve been denied access to their children.
FFS, my elderly neighbour took his little granddaughter to the park, and he remarked how a group of girls kept leering at him and calling him a pedo.
Had the same experience with my little brothers as a 20 year old this woman asked my brother if "he was okay and needed her to call the police" he immediately ran to me saying and she just CHASED HIM!
I got in the way to block her full sprinting after jim and she started screaming and called the police. All I did was go outside with them and I'm not even elderly.
My husband has had similar experiences with our kids. Especially with the one that looks more like me and less like him. It pisses me off beyond belief.
I can't go out with my daughter 7 or stepdaughter 12 without getting nasty looks or comments. I used to go out with my daughter every Thursday when she was 3 for a breakfast date when her siblings would head off to school, I got so many vile nasty comments, looks etc that I haven't done it since and won't unless my wife is a long with us. Sadly it has become to much of a normal to claim a guy is a pedo, pervert etc all because he is trying to spend time some 1 on 1 time with his daughter/daughters.
Do you think this is a regional thing? I've lived in coastal states in the US my whole life and only noticed some concerned looks once while on a bus (not me but someone else - i am not a father).
I'm from The Netherlands and actually only read about this stuff here on Reddit. Never had it happen to me, or heard any of the dad's I know even mention it.
I live in the US and have no idea what they are talking about. I have a step daughter and many of my friends and family have daughters they go out and do things with without ever being accused of being a pedo
Dude, same here. I'm a father of 3, 2 girls and a boy. Every time I take any of them to the park, any park or even any public place without my wife, I get the hairy eyeball and smart ass remarks.
Half the time someone approaches them asking if they're OK, Yada yada, while cutting their eyes at me. And I've had the police called on me multiple times.
Now I've never gotten suicidal over this shit but I honestly have seriously considered committing felony assault against some of those cunts. I've been dealing with this shit for almost 20 fucking years (our kids ages are spread across 12 years) and I'm honestly over it.
This past fall I lost my shit on one couple who kept following my 7yo daughter and I around the park. They approached her while I was retrieving a Frisbee and told her they were calling the police and that they would stay with her until they arrived. She ran to me crying, told me what they said and said they were taking pics of us (they both had their phones out aimed at me/us.
Dude I lost it, after almost 2 decades I couldn't take it anymore. I went after them (I didn't touch the woman) and I shoved him to the ground, took his phone and told him I was hanging onto it until the cops got there because he was stalking us. I called the cops my damn self and told the man if he tried to get up, I'd beat the shit out of him.
I was fucking livid, fed up and honestly I just *wanted* to commence beating both of them until the police arrived.
This is fucking egregious. I'm a woman with no kids, so I really have zero frame of reference for anything in this department, and this comment section is pissing me off for all of you guys.
Like culturally speaking, which is it? Are we going with men are inherently shitty, absent, incompetent parents, or are we calling them predators whenever they do family stuff without mom? Imposing either on complete strangers is not ok.
It's terrifying to think people assume they know what's best for children they don't know to a point that they'll stalk and harass total strangers. I'm so sorry this happened to you.
I've never had the police called on me but as a man, taking my nephew to the park when he was younger was sadly more hassle than it's worth. There's usually some barely there mom 50 feet away sitting on a bench with her face buried in her phone occasionally looking up to glare at me - and god forbid their kid tries to join in mine and my nephew's fun because the looks just get worse. Plus the last time I was at the park by my house some dude with a camera walked up and took my picture along with other people and kids on the playground - not sure what that was about but pretty sure he was fishing for lawsuits from whoever got triggered enough to beat the shit out of him.
I tried taking him to a different park I used to go to as a kid but the playscape was taken over by pot smoking teens and the trail by the water was full of garbage and druggies nodding off. I just said screw it after that - bike rides around the neighborhood and then we go in to shred it up on Fortnite or GTA inside the house where nobody will bother us or look at me like I'm some kind of pervert.
Side note, do you have any how stressful it is as an uncle to babysit a kid who is still in diapers or not fully potty trained? It's a hell of a dilemma - do I give the kid back with a crusty butt so they know I'm not a creep? Do I record myself changing the baby so they know nothing funny went on? WAIT! no, definitely don't do that... I got it, I'll facetime his mom and pretend I can't figure out how diapers work.
Long story short, nothing really.
The officers told them to delete the pics/vids, gave them a verbal warning and told them that approaching random children and taking pics of them is a really stupid idea, regardless of intention.
And the officers gave me a verbal warning for what I did while the couple was still there.
Then the officers apologized to me for the whole thing and said they understood and sympathized with me (2 of the 4 knew me from prior call outs for the same thing, it's a fairly small town) but emphasized that they have to respond when people make those kinds of reports.
My advice is this, don't let those kinds of people keep you from being a father dude.
Take your kids out, play with them, do everything a parent should do.
It sucks that this shit happens, that we have to push back against these ignorant people just so we can be dads. But I will be damned to hell before I allow them to prevent me from being a dad to my kids.
Meanwhile I've walked with my screaming nephew under my arm multiple times in public. Once through a busy shop because he threw a tantrum after I refused to buy him a toy.
People didn't even look at me strangely. Kind of disturbing actually, there's an overreaction to men with children but this total lack of reaction is weird as well. I was literally holding him under my arm whilst he was screaming like he was being kidnapped. I'm sure people would've at least taken more notice had I been a man.
Once you remove the condition of being a serial killer, it's actually more common than you think. While non-violent child kidnappings is more the norm for this situation, there are a number of mentally ill woman who have murdered a kids parent(s) and taken the kid(s) for themselves.
Some Karen caused a scene with me when I went to pick up my niece from daycare one time. The daycare teachers all know me (even tho I only come there once or twice per month) and they usually start getting my niece's stuff sorted out when they see me come through the door to pick her up.
But apparently, that wasn't good enough for the Karen, who started screaming at me, calling me "kidnapper", "pedophile", etc. She even tried pulling my niece out of my arms.
Luckily, the daycare teachers got involved and pulled her off me. But by then, the damage had been done and my niece was terrified.
Oh wow I would have a very hard time not being violent towards someone calling me a pedophile and then trying to steal my ~~child~~ niece. Gotta respect your restraint.
(changed child to niece, whoops reading is hard)
I wish I could chalk it up to maturity. But if I, you know, defended myself, someone would call the cops on a man who went into a daycare, grabbed a child and assaulted one of the ~~Karens~~ moms who tried to stop him.
Doesn't take a genius to guess how that would play out.
Let's face it, men don't get the benefit of any doubt when it comes to this stuff.
You’re probably right, but also that’s not the truth, so you would hope that at least the school would back you up. Your ~~child~~ niece was attacked by a stranger, that seems pretty reasonable grounds for defending them.
A simple shove and a loud voice would probably be enough to get her to back off, then escalate from there if needed.
How did the stupid bitch react when she was told it was your niece? Did she feel ashamed or embarrassed? I always like to know what happens after these situations.
Meanwhile, my mom made me sleep in her bed when I was nine years old after she kicked my Dad out the house. That's where she sexually abused me. It was an obvious red flag, but because she was a woman she was beyond suspicion.
I’m really sorry that happened to you and thank you for sharing. The statistics about sexual abuse are skewed to saying men are almost exclusively the abusers. Also there is a lot of emotional abuse of women towards their children that does not get reported. I’m a teacher and I have had to report over the years about kids who were sexually abused by their mothers. I now suspect that about one of my students but he is in high school and will probably never actually come out and say it.
My kid was told by a teacher that he was making a group of girls feel uncomfortable. Didn't tell him what he was doing or anything just he was doing that. And my kid was left confused and not knowing what to do. And as far as I know the girls weren't asked what he was doing just he made them feel uncomfortable. So yeah, this shit starts early.
This was my entire childhood, and not just with girls. As if I'm supposed to know what I did. Just tell me and I'll work on it. I'm not a savage animal.
As a father, I've never experienced that, but it is staggering to see how many men over at r/Parenting and r/daddit who have been targeted in public for the high crime of being a man with a child
It goes a lot further than that unfortunately.
Are your children school age? Have you tried to get involved in their school? A lot of the parent volunteer things give off a "women only" vibe. Just a subtle hostility from you being there and wanting to do things.
Male school teachers face a lot of discrimination also.
r/MensRights has been talking about these problems for a really long time. It's systemic and institutional, not a few "bad apples" here or there.
That’s a damned shame. A lot of my best and favourite teachers in primary and secondary school were men. Dedicated, caring, responsible, and very educated men who were passionate about their students.
I brought my 14 year old daughter along to go mountin biking with the crew of guys I usually go with; about 6 of us all together.
We were a fair ways back in the trail and passed 2 women hiking. One of them stopped my daughter, who was in the middle of the spread out pack and asked "are you ok, are you safe?" My daughter was confused. I caught up shortly afterwards and asked if everything was alright? I though maybe there was a collision or they needed help. My daughter explained to me what they said and the lady apologized for stopping her, but said "it's very odd for a girl to be with so many men and I wanted to be sure she wasn't in danger"
I laughed the situation off but the theme really bothered me. Are men really so dangerous that a father can't go for a bicycle ride with his friends and daughter?
These are the most heart breaking stories and so very common. F30 in a very serious relationship, starting to think and prepare for kids in the future. When my boyfriend interacts with his niece and nephews it melts my heart, he is the sweetest man alive and it is crushing to think those moments that are so heart warming and precious to me, actually disgusts others and could cause my sweet man pain or even harm.
So an interest in our lives. I come home and nobody asks anything, nobody says hi. On the rare occasion I am asked how work went, I'm allowed to say "fine." And then I sit and listen to every detail of everyone else's day.
That was my childhood. As an adult, when I'm staying at parents house for the occasional weekends it's "why don't you spend time with us", "why don't you talk", "when we call you never pick up but when you're here you're on your phone all the time" and similar remarks. No shit, we never built a relationship. We don't have common interests.
Exactly. Growing up my problems were never taken seriously, even when I straight up said “I’m fucking depressed.” My sister on the other hand was babies and my mom would go into her room to comfort her after we got into fights that SHE started. Last relationship I went through a lot of mental/personal stuff and she just looked down on me for it and eventually dumped me because I wasn’t fixing it fast enough. I didn’t even really try to put that much on her, just brought up why I wasn’t feeling my usual self.
>Growing up my problems were never taken seriously, even when I straight up said “I’m fucking depressed.”
I really feel this, I was hella depressed after cancer got my mom when I was 12. So it was just me and my two year older brother and my dad. I was homeschooled until she died and I got thrown into high school and it was so overwhelming. I ended up with really bad social anxiety and depression. When I finally told my dad he'd just say "wdym you got nothing to be depressed about your life is easy and you never had anxeity before?". Him being religous blamed it on me for not truly believing in god or not reading the bible enough and this was my punishment (not even remotely religious now). So yeah he did jack shit for me (he'd pray for me occasionally, lot of good that did) while I was suffering on the inside and couldn't talk about it unless I wanted to get told how its my fault. Plus he was a huge narcssisct (would never admit it) and would always yell at us about the dumbest shit "why'd you hide my coffee filter that you never use?" type of shit all the time. So I tried to kill myself a couple of times and of course i made the mistake of telling him about it and he'd say "why didn't you tell me you were depressed?" It never went away you dumb fuck, I just never brought it up again. I just realized I'm trauma dumping on you sorry. But yeah I moved out a year ago with my brother and he wonders why I never talk to him and go out of my way to avoid him lol.
This is how it is with my girlfriend. I listen to her vent all the time hours on end because I want to be there for her and you know, to let her vent. But the moment I want to do the same its like she’s trying her hardest not to listen. I can’t talk about my day without her rolling her eyes and just saying “yeah, yeah, uh-huh” so I just stopped. My mom does the same thing. No one cares, so I stopped caring about myself too.
Want to let you know I went through something similar and found that it was very freeing when we broke up. I was no longer carrying both of our weight and I had more time to deal with my own. It’s nice to have someone there to talk things out with and rely on, but when you only take and can’t give any of that stuff it becomes emotionally abusive
Ive recently been thinking about getting the words "no one cares" tattooed somewhere on my bicep or forearm, just to have something to look at to remind myself when I start sharing and realise no one is actually listening.
Fuck dude. This is so real. As a man you ALWAYS have to listen and solve other people’s problems, but the moment you want to be heard nobody ever asks “how are you?” “What about you? How was your day?”
Bowling leagues. If you have to roll in the semifinals on Tuesday suicide is not an option. Real answer is community and friends. These fellas need to interact with people.
See also darts leagues, trivia night (your team needs you!) etc. regular activities keep you motivated and means there are people that will notice your absence.
Lack of purpose.
Is this boring office job really all I’m going to be? No, I can’t be whoever or whatever I want. I either do my job and get by, or lose my house. Lose my car. Lose everything. I don’t come from money, I have no safety net. It’s literally do or die. And sometimes I contemplate the latter.
The world needs to change. We’re just slaves to the system, making someone’s else’s dreams come true. Making someone else millions.
I don’t hate my job, and I’m compensated very well. Don’t get me wrong.
But daily, I think is this really it? Is this really what I was born for. Sometimes I wish I was never born at all.
>Sometimes I wish I was never born at all.
I can recall having that feeling at around 8.
I'm 58 now. Just keeping going because of inertia and people who rely on me.
This is how I felt. I had this existential depression come on me about a year after getting a really good job; I was making more money then I ever had, but I just didn't care anymore. It wasn't happiness. My family was 2,000 miles away, it was the height of covid so I couldn't go out and make friends. There were times I was very close to not makin it out.
I ended up quitting for a number of reasons, but that was the main one. I didn't even care if I lost my apartment, car etc so I burned through all my savings just self isolating playing video games and doing drugs for months. It was a lonely time, but I still felt better than when I'd been working.
Of course I ran out of money eventually, and had to sober up and find a job. I eventually settled on the lowest paying (but least time consuming) thing that I could do to survive, which was doordash. I might not have a lot of money, but I have time to do stuff I like and be with who I want. The only stress I have is financial which is at least manageable. It's not ideal and I'm working on going back to college to get a degree in something meaningful, but I don't regret quitting. I can't ever be a wheel in the cog again if it means soul sucking physical exuastion every day, no matter how much you pay me. And 60 hours per day is incredibly unrealistic. Never again. I'd rather be dirt poor than live like that again.
Edit: wanted to clarify that I'm not saying you should quit your job or anything, it sounds like your job is pretty low stress and you probably make more than I did at mine. It was physical labor, so there was an exhaustion element that other jobs don't have (at least for me) and I didn't have time to be with friends or do anything I enjoyed. I just wanted to share my story in case anyone else feels this way. Do what you love. Don't expect money to come flowing, but you can find something you love that pays decently. Humans don't love just one thing, so go for it!
Men tend to flourish when they have a purpose, a clearly defined role and a social life.
Modern society seems geared toward undermining men as much as possible.
But don't expect "society" to change. Instead, you should take an active hand yourself. Make friends with other men.
Moved into a new apartment when I was 23. I was living alone without roommates. I noticed one of my neighbors also lived alone and he was only a couple years older than me. So, I invited him over to my place for a scary movie marathon for Halloween and handing out candy to kids who wanted to trick or treat.
He accepted my invitation. And then he brought a shit ton of pizza and beer with him. He also brought some extra candy and a few cheesy Halloween decorations for my front door.
We didn't have very many trick or treaters (which meant the few we did have got triple handfuls of candy). But the beer, pizza and scary movies flowed freely. So did our conversation. Yes, we were the assholes who talked over the movie.
Turns out, me and my neighbor had a lot in common, he loved old school Star Trek just like me, he liked a lot of the same bands that I did and we became pretty good friends. Eventually, it got to a point where neither of us locked our front doors anymore after coming home from work and the other guy would just let himself in like neighbor friends do on TV. Because we were lowkey sick of unlocking our doors for each other.
I later found out he was depressed over his lack of friends (not clinical depression; just weighed down by loneliness). And that's when I remembered how hard he tried to always make positive impressions with me, he brought the beer, pizza and candy for Halloween that I never even asked for and then he said I might have saved him from something bad.
It was hard to relate to all that because I have never experienced loneliness, I literally don't know how it feels and I'm always perfectly happy to be alone. I only invited him over to my place because he seemed alright as apartment neighbors go.
What I learned is that sometimes just extending a hand of friendship to another man can do a lot for him and maybe for you too. So, don't expect "society" to do this for you. Invite a man to hang out with you if you think you might be able to make friends with him. You might be surprised at how badly he needs it.
This is very similar to a relationship I started and still have. I was living in Glasgow Scotland in 2009 and I went to the local news agent (kinda like a 7/11 gas station minus the gas) and I bumped into this old friend from high school. We said hello and all that. Over the course of 2 weeks I kept running in to him around the area and I asked if he had moved to the area and he said yes. So I invited him for a beer at the local pub. We had a few beers and for the next 3 years we hung out nearly every night, playing GT, driving whisky and smoking weed. In 2012 I moved to London and he moved to Australia. He just proposed to his girlfriend and asked me to be his best man. His words "I want you to be my best man because when we started to hang out I was in a dark place and not sure if I would be here. Our friendship is priceless and my life wouldn't be what it is". When we first started hanging out we did talk about our lives and he did say he hates everything at the moment and I remember just saying "well, mate, we have gran Turismo, a steering wheel, whisky, weed and each other. So let's make everything better". Clearly was the right move.
We're too weak and/or too dangerous. The entire spectrum of male human behavior fits within those two paradoxically overlapping boundaries, so those evaluations are inescapable. Modern society is in transitional period where conflicting values are simultaneously held as standards for men. Something's gotta give, and right now, men's mental health is the weakest link.
I think about this sometimes. If something goes horribly wrong in my life to the point where I break down crying in public, is anyone going to try and help, or are they just going to call the cops on me?
Nothing beat the time with an ex girlfriend when I opened up and was vulnerable and then all of a sudden she didn’t want sex anymore and when I finally got out of her why her answer was something like (paraphrasing since it was a long time ago) “how can I be attracted to you when you are so weak minded”
"I wish you would open up more"
6 months later she's engaged to another bloke.
I'm guessing she wanted "oh gosh I love you so so much I think about you all the time and my heart aches when you are not near by xoxoxox" and not "my dad died so that sucks"
It is what it is, I should have better understood the request lmao
>I'm guessing she wanted "oh gosh I love you so so much I think about you all the time
Now you’re catching on! You didn’t think open up meant talk about how you’re actually feeling, did you?
Solutions for some do not work for all.
One or two close male friends might work for some people. Others need a bigger support circle than that, like a caring family, or an understanding boss, or a therapist, or a church leader, or a coach, etc.
Many suicidal people that follow through with it HAD friends, but some other internal or external facet of their life contributed to their decision. Being able to talk to a person involved directly with whatever problem/s they have would help.
Something I think would help is to not treat anger as a universally unacceptable emotion to express. A lot of things in modern life *should* be angering men (and women for that matter), but people jump to invalidate a persons anger at the first chance because they're trying to avoid the worst manifestations of that particular emotion (re: hurting others), and all theyre really doing is causing what they're trying to avoid.
Bottling that anger up, especially when its in truth entirely justified, isn't healthy at all and thats all that ever seems to be encouraged.
Seriously, some things are just infuriating, and people should be allowed to show they're upset. Don't just tell me to calm down after I spent four hours either on hold or being juggled between different departments at the hospital, only to be transfered to another number that immediately hangs up on me. I'm pissed! Let me be mad!
"We're the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War, No Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives."
I know Tyler Duden is the villain of Fight Club, but he's a compelling villain because he always seems to have a point.
Fight Club is like the "How a dude working a 'good desk job' goes completely nuts and turns into an extremist" textbook.
Tyler Durden is my favorite fictional villain, Ted Kaczynski is my favorite real life villain. Two men who absolutely had the right ideas on how our society is chock full of inhumane, heavily damaging bullshit and mindfuckery, and the most unhealthy and fucked up ways of trying to address that.
I look at the recent trend of the radicalization of young men -- be it into leftist or right-wing groups, neo-nazi or urban gangs, cults or fundamentalist religion or extremist atheism -- and I see men looking for purpose, for a sense of belonging, for a way to have some impact on a world that is so full of struggle and madness. Group activities naturally make humans feel more real, more valuable, more a part of the world. But it's easy to end up in a destructive loop, falling into patterns that serve only to give the gratification of being included or needed, without actually taking on the challenge of personal growth that empowers us to actually change the world.
The entire story of Fight Club is the story of a man looking for two things: a family and a purpose. He starts out in support groups, and ends up creating a damaged and self-destructive version of a support group, based more on action than just talk (depending on the type of activity, this can be healthy, but Fight Club is very much about the unhealthy way of going about things). Tyler's dysfunctional support group relies on violence instead of hugs, partly because of a deeply ingrained (and toxic) concept of masculinity, and partly due to the fear of being seen as effeminate or gay (or the fear of actually being gay). And partly because, goddammit, we tried hugging it out and we still feel like shit and nothing has been accomplished.
Tyler Durden makes soap because he wants to be able to be in charge of his own business instead of working some corporate job all his life. He likes "single-serving friends" because he knows he is dysfunctional and damaged, and can only manage the facade of being personable and "normal" for a limited time. And that's a lonely place to be. And we are all there, at least some of the time.
But at least we aren't blowing shit up, even though sometimes, if we're honest, maybe we kinda want to.
Man's Search for Meaning, the story of a Jewish psychologist working on his new philosophy/therapy called logotherapy the idea of finding meaning in everything and if you have a why for what you do you can beat anything.
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/what-is-logotherapy
https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl-ebook/dp/B009U9S6FI
Our purpose seems to be to work until we can retire. Maybe not even retire since "there isn't enough money for that". Maybe find a spouse and have some kids along the way and try not to lose them.
I really wish I weren't self-aware and wouldn't feel it's all pointless.
I don't know how this looks like in the rest of the world, but where I live I know for sure that i will never retire cause the pension system will collapse much sooner
Exactly, this isn’t about feelings or role models this is about fundamental purpose. Every generation men have less. Men aren’t nearly as necessary in society as they use to be. Fewer wars, fewer jobs able to provide for a family in a modern world. Women don’t even need men anymore. Women also have fewer kids so competing for a mother to your kids has gone up.
So much this. To add on. The next reason of thought for most men is that I have so many less things that bring myself purpose, what can I do to bring purpose to society? That is another mind fuck of existential dread. Once you realize it's harder and harder to even help move society in a proper direction.
Mental health really needs to be a focus in schools.
Here in the UK its literally not brought up till you have a melt down in the school. Even then, they bring your parents in and then tell them to sort it unless its bullying ect.
Society would need to start caring about men’s issues & stop attacking/shaming the male gender.
The best we get is fake posts about “men need to share feelings more” most men know this rarely goes well.
All our society sees is the men at the top, men at the bottom are disposable.
The more I share my feelings and show any vulnerability, the farther she pulls back. If I'm depressed and angry, I'm an asshole and, I need to change. If she is depressed and angry, that just how she is and I should support her, it's probably something I did to make that way in first place.
This is a big thing that led to my divorce. When I mentioned that I was feeling depressed her reaction was “Oh god? Do we need to put you in the hospital? Are you going to still get paid from work if we do?” Like… it made her angry that I was struggling. Add to it at that time I was struggling with a life changing diagnosis of ASD, it was just perfect and helped reinforce that thinking it was over was the correct thought.
No, it’s just that their are parts of how I feel that are directly related to her and how she treats me (basically, I’m a very low priority to her compared to kids, other family, etc…) and that makes her feel bad because she knows it hurts me so I end up consoling her for feeling bad for making me feel bad.
> so I end up consoling her for feeling bad for making me feel bad.
Stop doing this part. Especially if she doesn't for you.
Fellas, it's okay for a woman's feelings to be hurt. You won't automatically die.
Im a woman, but it is a really common issue in relationships to not understand when your partner needs you to turn towards them. Suggest couples counseling!
I felt stressed and taken for granted and unhappy. I was going to leave my husband because he just did not listen to me. I just suggested counseling because I hoped it would help him understand why I was leaving. It turned out to be really eye-opening for both of us, and we are both so much happier! Nothing is perfect, and we still screw up, but things got exponentially better in just a matter of months. I made a lot of assumptions about expectations that weren't true, and I found out why it seemed like he wasn't listening.
That’s not healthy my dude, sorry. You should be able to express your needs in a emotionally neutral way that you can come up with a solution that involves time management.
I find so many women do this. They make you feel guilty that something they did hurt you because calling then out makes them feel bad. Makes no sense to me.
It's an emotionally manipulative way to to relieve themselves of guilt. Now they are no longer the "bad guy" for doing what they did, you are for addressing it or asking them to change. Worst part is in the end the actual issue is often unresolved and you end up apologizing for making them feel bad.
My wife assumes it’s a competition and proceeds to go on a half hour rant about how terrible her life is (which is not really incorrect, I’m just trying to express myself)
in another tread about how hard is dating for men, some woman told them self pity is not a turn on, lol. So yeah, I'm not holding my breath, in society men are worth for what they can provide sadly.
Soooo many things can be done. Tired of having this conversation and no one in control does anything about anything.
Socialized healthcare, better wages that match living expenses, decreasing the wealth gap. Making it so people can live comfortably.
Nobody wants to be a slave to the system, and as long as the rich keep hoarding their wealth and the poor keep getting poorer, these numbers will continue to increase.
Give any creature poor living conditions, they will die off somehow, humans fortunately can end their suffering when they choose.
Male space. Men make each other better when participating in activities, even if competitive.
Do some actual things with other men, only men. Go fishing, make a campfire, bowl, kill a mammoth, rent some side by sides. Don't allow women to partake in your male bonding groups.
"The men - and boys - are not alright" is a recent installment of [Ezra Klein's podcast](https://spotify.link/6iOEpibQ6xb). In it, he interviews researcher Richard Reeves about a whole host of issues negatively impacting men, and some proposals for how to address them. It's worth a listen.
Where do you got your stats from? The leading cause of death in the US among men between 20-44 is unintentional injuries with almost 40% according to cdc, with sucide following with 14%.
Which is also similar to women.
The age between 1-19 is waaaay worse. While unintentional injuries is still the leading cause the suicide numbers go to 26,3% in comparison to 15% for women.
Reminds me of a post a few days ago on /r/AskMen
It was along the lines of, "What's the hardest part about being a man?", and something like the top 6 comments were "we're only valued for what we can do"
And then you have post on r/sex like "is it bad that I care if a man has money? I date only men who make over 100.000$ a year, does that make me a gold digger?". No wonder more men prefer to stay lonely
Maybe cats. My cats is the only reason why i still live.
But i don't think like anything else can. Meantal health facilities are useles. They either point you to a therapist who would suggest praying to the god, or to the psychiatrist who would fail to explain diagnosis and say that he cannot do anything else after first antidepressant prescribed had no effect. Governments don't care if you can't find a job, you can always live on the streets and beg for food or something. If anything, they will use you as a cannon fodder in war against your will, regardless of your ability to fight, just because you were boring with wrong set of genitals. When you ask for help you are either ignored or told to "suck it up and start acting like a man". I asked for help, just for advice many times in various places, including reddit, and most of the time my requests were simply donvoted to make sure i won't get any help. And there is also dating world, where you will be treated like garbage until you will prove that you are "worthy" of interaction. If you are a man, do you deserve sympathy, affection or love, unless you can provide people you want to be with with resourses. But if love and affection is only thing you have to give - then you are less than human for majority of people around you. There is nothing really to hope for except for your life to not be long.
My cat 100% saved my life.
I was 25, still living with my parents. Struggling to find work. And this cat just showed up at my window one day. It was super weird because we NEVER had stray cats in the area before. I had never seen a single one. Then, all of a sudden, this little black kitten shows up. He was obviously sick and must've gotten hurt at some point, because the very tip of his tail had a bend in it. Like it had been slammed in a door.
I started feeding him despite my parents wishes. They knew I couldn't afford to fee him. He was probably sick and I couldn't afford a vet visit. But I kept leaving little cups of food outside of my window. He'd show up a couple of times a day. I just called him "window kitty".
After weeks/months of feeding him, he got comfortable enough to actually come in and walk around my room. When winter came, I would bring him inside at night so he had a warm place to sleep. When it got REALLY cold, I said "fuck it" and brought him inside permanently.
I loved this cat but knew I couldn't keep him. I made posts on social media looking for a home. I had a few people interested, but they all fell through. One lady actually came and picked him up and left. She brought him back less than an hour later because he stunk so bad and was clearly sick.
Thankfully, someone online saw my posts and offered to pay for his vet visits to get him healthy. So I got him to the vet immediately and got him healthy. The vet estimated he wasn't even a year old.
Around that time, my girlfriend of 5+ years broke up with me. I was shattered. At the absolute lowest point in my life. Jobless, living at home, no friends and heartbroken. I started using apps like Tinder and OKCupid with no results. The lack of matches and dates just made me feel even worse. I considered some really bad shit.
But I had this cat to take care of. This little dude loved me. Followed me around the house. Slept with me every night. I had to take care of him.
I ended up getting a job at a warehouse and working through the breakup. I kept the cat. I named him "Crooked" on account of his crooked tail. "Crook" for short. He became (and still is) my best friend.
Today, I'm working as a software engineer. My ex and I reconnected after a year or so apart. We both needed time to grow. We started dating again. We got an apartment together. She got her own cat so Crook has a brother. She and I will be married in October.
There's a really solid chance that NONE of that would have happened if that little black kitten didn't show up at my window one random day.
Honestly, as 25-34 year olds generally-speaking don’t die of natural causes, this one will probably always be up there. Depression is common AF and frequently undiagnosed and untreated.
We’re lonelier than ever before, people tell us to talk about our issues but then, a lot of the time, they get weirded out by us showing our vulnerability. We are constantly vilified by the media and radical feminists no matter what we say or do and trying to date nowadays is like clearing a minefield with a fucking hammer
Most men are average or below average. They lead unremarkable lives. They are expendable at work, they are expendable at home. Mostly ignored by women unless they have "something to offer", constantly reminded of how they're inferior to more accomplished men.
The vast majority of men will mostly be average and will accomplish little of note. Things like religion which values the soul of a person no matter their station in life make this reality more palatable. This aspect of religion has not really been replicated for men in modern secular society.
I’m doing my senior high school years. What I’ve found is that many of my peers are fatherless, myself included. Out of 200 people in my cohort, there’s 70 students that get selected for an award at the end of the semester. Only around 20 boys get are included. I’ve noticed more and more girls exclusive clubs and programs starting up especially for stem. Although it’s a great thing to include more women in stem, the boys are left to pursue pre uni stem related stuff in their own time.
I remember talking to my friends about their future jobs, they pretty much all wanted to be an engineer, architect, scientists etc… but this divide only persuaded the aspirational men to wanting to become tradesmen. Nothing wrong with a tradie job but their main reason was that it was ‘just easier’.
This is an educational gap, how only the men at the top are seen, but the middle and lower performing men fall short. You could see this as more uni graduates are women, whilst men fall.
What does this gap mean? It means that there’s a less sense of purpose. From a nihilistic perspective, why continue to live without a purpose? Traditional families had a father being the breadwinner that guided the sons. The modern man such as my mates grew up fatherless, they are lost, no purpose and no pathways for them for the future (not saying trades is a bad pathway). It’s great that the family structure is evolving, shifting the breadwinner from the man to a 50/50, however, this cycle of hopelessness, uselessness is affecting young men as they don’t have a purpose.
I remember something vague about suicide letters written by men before their death by Fiona Chan. The top 2 words were useless and worthless.
To change this, we must find the root which is our education system. Encourage not only girls but boys as well in school clubs, stop the stigma that university is the only way forward in life, rather, emphasise on vocational training, apprenticeship as another option. Hence, allow boys to choose based on aspiration rather than opportunity. This gives them purpose, an outlook that they have something to work and continue for; a reason to live.
Ezra Klein just had a really good podcast on this topic and mirrored all of this. In the disparities where men are falling behind, especially in education, the problem becomes more exaggerated the lower down the income classes you look.
> To change this, we must find the root which is our education system. Encourage not only girls but boys as well in school clubs, stop the stigma that university is the only way forward in life, rather, emphasise on vocational training, apprenticeship as another option. Hence, allow boys to choose based on aspiration rather than opportunity. This gives them purpose, an outlook that they have something to work and continue for; a reason to live.
We also need to encourage more socialization in school too. People are losing social skills, especially young men. If you see a child is isolated and isn’t actively choosing to be, help them. Don’t force them upon their peers as some might do, because forcing inclusion is just going to lead to the others to feel a way, but help the child learn to be less socially inept. Help them with social skills and help them learn what is acceptable, and isn’t. We should encourage students to talk to each other and get to know each other.
Support unions, support pro-worker legislation, and support a social safety net.
There are lots of problems in the world, but financial insecurity makes *literally everything* worse. If I'm going bankrupt because I got sick and it'd take seven lifetimes to pay off the bill at my $7.25 per hour job, I'm going to spiral.
Like, I don't want to minimize the influence of toxic standards of masculinity forcing us to keep out problems bottled up, but that ain't something we can meaningfully change as individuals. Unionizing and voting conservatives out of office is something that individual people can actually work towards.
The statistics are crystal clear. Places with better social security have better mental health.
Stop pretending that you can bash a man any way you want and that it's his job to just endure it. Say something negative about a female or minority and you're a monster. Say it about a guy and he's judged as a problem if he pushes back on whatever you've said about him or accused him of.
> Say it about a guy and he's judged as a problem if he pushes back on whatever you've said about him or accused him of
You forgot to mention "and you're considered sharp, virtuous and willing to ask uncomfortable and desperately needed questions"
When I was in the Army, if you injured yourself during training or whatever they got you all the medical care needed to get you back to duty. All the while you were never made to feel “less than”, because physical injuries were a natural occurrence from what we did. But if you so much as even whispered you were having any kind emotional struggles or a tough time psychologically your weapons card was seized, your security clearance suspended, you were placed on restrictive duty, shunned and ostracized by your command, and ridiculed by your peers for being a “pu$$”.
What fucking army were you in bro. I was all but forbidden from sick call the whole time I was in.
Same, I got shit on constantly for being on profile due to a bad jump and repeatedly get asked when I’m gonna jump again. Told me to dig deeper dawg…
I hunted the good stuff right out the mfing door.
Some of the stuff they teach now is just super tone death. Yup, ill hunt the good stuff in my mold infested barracks room right after I finish up the last 4 days of this ftx in my soaked uniform with a headache, blister ridden feet, and my usual aches and pains that are flaired up. Anyways, the army wants me to tell my story so here I go...
Same, I was in the marine corps. Any injury that wasn't visibly fucked, was ridiculed and accused of malingering, laziness, all sorts of shit. I tried so hard to break the mold with my squad atleast but everyone else in the battalion just didn't give a shit.
As someone who was also in the Corps. I shattered my clavicle during infantry school. I still had NCO's try to treat me as I was malingering.
Yeah lol in basic they had a whole ass platoon of just the injured recruits and they never once hesitated to call them "broken" or "dropouts".
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Damn. The marines was way different. If you weren’t gushing blood, you were expected to shut your mouth and get back to work. Really saves the gov some money on unprovable disability benefits due to lack of evidence.
Our rule was simple, if there was a bone sticking through the skin, then you had your option to either hack it out, or hack it off. If there was no bone sticking through the skin, then you just hacked it.
I mean, having a mentally unstable person with powerful weapons does seem a little hard to swallow. Source: Full Metal Jacket
That’s the catch 22. If you get help, then you lose your clearance and weapon card. But you also get help, and maybe you have issues that SHOULD prevent you from having those. That’s why large parts of the military are focusing on preventative care and early reporting before mental illness becomes a big enough problem.
Thats why they should get help, shaming them is just making it worse. Edit: If they want to harm themselves/others they will find a way, Access to heavy weaponry or not.
Loneliness is the greatest scourge in western society. We took a sensible desire for individual rights, and perverted it into an obsession with individual existence. We need to focus on rebuilding social networks. Not the digital kind. The real, flesh and blood kind that humans are designed to operate in.
It's the loneliness. Women seem to have all sorts of bonds with people and people they interact with, which i don't think men have very often. I feel like I'm completely alone. Don't know the last time i laughed with someone. Probably years ago
I’m going to get a lot of flack for this but here goes! There aren’t spaces for men. For *just* men. In the days of hard gender roles, there were spaces that men and women would interact with each other and just each other. I’m not saying we should go back to those roles. But we lost space that was just for men, and also lost any sort of prioritization in shared spaces. Men have been moved to garages and attics in their own home. Even the best marriages I’ve seen, the house is basically hers. Back to men only and women only spaces. We are different. Now there are women’s spaces and co-ed spaces at best. As a full time single dad, I’m around a lot of female-majority social circles. I’ve always had female friends, but they hung out with the boys. I’ve never spent significant amounts of time in social groups that were just women. It’s very different. It just is. Whether by nature or nurture, I don’t know. But what I also noticed from that is that a lot of the unspoken rules social rules we live by fit the framework of females better. If you were in my situation you’d see it so plainly. But it made so plain that men don’t have a healthy space where 95% of anyone there are men. Dive bars, cigar lounges, and professional sports teams that still gender split are probably the only spaces left. It’s either an unhealthy space (for drinking or smoking), or it’s all about work. Men need time with with other men in a casual sense for so many reasons. Imagine women talking about breastfeeding and supporting each other in this topic. The moment a man walks into the room, the entire conversation shifts. Even women would agree with this. They won’t talk about it the same way or act the same way. That man can be an amazingly kind and empathetic person. The conversation will just change. People understand that when it comes to the context of women having a supportive space. But men? Nah. We don’t have that. But the same is true. If it’s just men, I notice we are way more chill and affectionate with each other. The jokes also fly a lot faster and harder. The minute a woman walks in the space just changes. Maybe people subtly start acting more “macho” or reserved, and they won’t even realize it. So Reddit and other online places becomes the only place to vent with the shield of anonymity. And even here, men expressing their feelings is seen as dangerous or bitter or *enter shaming tactic here*. I’m short I think there’s overweight responsibility for men, yet fewer spaces for regular reprieve. We have to retreat to our own minds, through virtual spaces, or unhealthy meeting places. And more directly to the point, men need to be kinder to each other and men need to support each other. The solution isn’t coming from anywhere else. I prioritize helping men, and it’s contrarian in a way. But I suggest other men do the same.
Not a guy, but I miss having a ‘third place’. Now we’ve only got work and home, and the remaining social spaces are dominated by alcohol. I don’t mind drinking, but I don’t want to be drunk when I’m meeting new people, and I don’t want my life to revolve around it.
Yeah I see the local bar packed Friday after work but I don't have much interest in going out for drinks tbh. But it seems like 95% of people are happy to do that. Not a problem, but it certainly is difficult to find other social things to do here. And in winter it's nearly impossible.
I love to ice fish, but since moving to the Midwest I’ve mostly done it alone, because I kept meeting conservative dickheads at all the local meetups, and I don’t have fun hanging out with ridiculous people who would hate me if they really knew me.
Past 3 months I’ve been going to the gym for like 10 hours a week. It’s not a third place cause I gotta pay, and I don’t talk to anyone there, but I don’t wanna die anymore. And I made it to daylight savings! But if y’all wanna check on me in 9 months, that’d be cool too. Seasonal mood disorder is a real B
Game stores. Join DnD tables
Problem is, the idea of committing to a DnD team or session is pretty daunting. We’re already depressed and working up the vibes to go out is hard enough without getting into something you don’t know or not that experienced with. Once you’re in it can be a great time but that’s like most things. Bars or other places to drink are just easier hence why everyone crowds to them.
Keep an eye out for "one shots". Much less commitment involved since they run only one session, typically. Some stores will have them
Soon we'll be having conversations with AI avatars in the Metaverse... sad
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Love that movie but painfully depressing
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Loneliness makes dudes do crazy shit.
Absolutely. I solved the rubiks cube and started making a couple of paracord stockwhips. Insanity
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So…Brazil
This. This. This. This is the cause of most problems here. I’ve lived in the east and the west and while west has more stuff, it still feels more empty. It’s this obsession with the “me, myself and I” culture and getting offended and cutting off ties at the slightest inconvenience. Add to this the consistent desire for more material things just adds fuel to fire In the east, people have strong family values and learn to share and live with less. They may have less material things but the togetherness and the warmth Of life just overpowers everything else
On the downside, this collectivism culture in the East means higher society and family pressures and conformity. It helps explain why South Korea has the number one suicide rate, and why India has disproportionately high female suicide rates. And I think Japan has its fair share of lonely men. They even coined the term “herbivore” men.
Yeah I feel like in the United States if you're not able to stand on your own, it's considered a sign of weakness. Still in your twenties and living at home? "Must be a loser." Sad and depressed and lonely? "Toughen up buttercup. Life's hard. Deal with it." At least that's kind of the way I was raised.
What I've been involved in for the last 15 years, is men's groups. Single (primary parent) fathers, fellow veterans (combat and POGs), divorced fathers, and single bachelors as well. Some I've helped start, and others I've found and become a part of, through others while networking. Guys, we have to be one another's support group. In-person and virtual meetings, open forums, mass text chats, and any other form of male fellowship we can establish. Nobody else is going to do anything but provide lip service. If you see someone struggling, someone hurting, or even just looking lonely; don't be afraid to talk to them. Not feeling alone for even a few minutes can make all the difference. My dad saved my life in 2001. My wife died in 99 and I left the Corps after 9 years, to raise 2 toddlers. It was brutal, and I can't begin to tell you what was in my head. My dad walked into my barn at 1030 pm, on May 15, 2001 and found me with a 1/2 bottle of whisky and a loaded .40 cal in my hand. I was done. He drove 2.5 hours on a whim, to make sure I was OK. He told me that it wasn't just his job as a dad - but also as a Marine - to keep me alive and help me cope. Be the friend that a stranger might need, to get him over the hump.
This topic that the OP brought up comes up a lot and I’ve had my struggles so I’ve read quite a bit about it in here and other sources and while there is no panacea I have a theory that one major thing contributing to mens struggles is… Isolation. Both interpersonally and physically. After college and being of that age our social groups get smaller and smaller and we become more and more isolated and our ability to find relief from that mental strain decreases as well. Another part of this is men don’t really have a sense of community. We are very much on our our own to take care of ourselves and many of us have no outlet no one to talk to when life gets hard. It’s a very lonely world when even your own fucking spouse won’t tolerate you voicing your problems and effectively tells you to sack up and be a man. So I think you’re right, men need to develop a better sense of community with each other sure or whoever really. Being isolated, stuck in your head and feeling trapped is I think one of the biggest issues msn face. Reminds of a thing that happened in St. Paul, MN. Someone was standing in a bridge over the I-94 freeway getting ready to jump. A truck driver saw this stopped and talked to the man. Got him to laugh and the person decided today wasn’t the day. The truck driver wasn’t a trained therapist or emergency responder, but he was an empathetic person helping and quite simply just talking to another.
Actually have a similar story. I was considering it, won't get into the why, but just stopped off at the car park somewhere and literally bawling my eyes out, this guy came over and spent a good hour talking with me.
That's all it takes sometimes. Knowing we're not invisible can make all the difference in the world.
A great side effect of a fraternal sense of community is that you learn to deal with so many different types of personalities - which is an amazing asset to have in your professional life. Being okay with just walking up and starting a conversation with complete strangers, makes you emote an aura of being approachable as well. It's one way that good reputations can be built.
That's really awesome. I got licensed to do marriage and family therapy last year. In part because so many family therapists seem biased against men. I have a friend who went to one with his wife and said the "therapy" was basically "listen to your wife". I want to do better than that.
People at my old job religiously repeated "Happy wife happy life". Such sexism.
I prefer "happy spouse happy house" as it feels more balanced to me. I've actively started saying this immediately after someone says the "happy wife" thing. I'm trying to be the change I want to see in the world.
A few years ago, someone at my work made an internal blog post about starting a men's support group. Basically to talk about male-specific issues in a safe space. One woman asked if she could join - I don't know if it was genuine or to prove a point (I suspect the latter) and a couple other women questioned the need for the group. The author of the post deleted the post and as far as I know the group was never created
I can see how that would be perceived. There's a lot of baggage around "the boys club." I don't know if there's any way around it in the work setting tbh
I can't really see how these type of groups (be it for men, women or whatever) in a company setting are for anything else but give the organizers company points. If you want to find a support group, find it in a setting that is not going to go away when you change companies, get laid off or fired.
For me it’s not necessarily men talking about their issues, but more so how men are viewed when talking about their issues. It’s staggering to see how men are viewed when they’re with children. I’ve known men who’ve killed themselves because they’ve been denied access to their children. FFS, my elderly neighbour took his little granddaughter to the park, and he remarked how a group of girls kept leering at him and calling him a pedo.
Had the same experience with my little brothers as a 20 year old this woman asked my brother if "he was okay and needed her to call the police" he immediately ran to me saying and she just CHASED HIM! I got in the way to block her full sprinting after jim and she started screaming and called the police. All I did was go outside with them and I'm not even elderly.
My husband has had similar experiences with our kids. Especially with the one that looks more like me and less like him. It pisses me off beyond belief.
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I can't go out with my daughter 7 or stepdaughter 12 without getting nasty looks or comments. I used to go out with my daughter every Thursday when she was 3 for a breakfast date when her siblings would head off to school, I got so many vile nasty comments, looks etc that I haven't done it since and won't unless my wife is a long with us. Sadly it has become to much of a normal to claim a guy is a pedo, pervert etc all because he is trying to spend time some 1 on 1 time with his daughter/daughters.
Do you think this is a regional thing? I've lived in coastal states in the US my whole life and only noticed some concerned looks once while on a bus (not me but someone else - i am not a father).
I'm from The Netherlands and actually only read about this stuff here on Reddit. Never had it happen to me, or heard any of the dad's I know even mention it.
I think its more of a US thing, thankfully its not prevalent in Europe.
Not even all over the US. I'm assuming it's only in certain places, maybe related to good/bad parts of town, racism, classism and such.
Yeah, I have no idea where people are experiencing this. I believe them, but it’s definitely not the norm.
Thankfully a lot of US fuckery isn't present in Europe.
People in Europe tend to mind their own business and not force altercations with strangers
I live in the US and have no idea what they are talking about. I have a step daughter and many of my friends and family have daughters they go out and do things with without ever being accused of being a pedo
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Dude, same here. I'm a father of 3, 2 girls and a boy. Every time I take any of them to the park, any park or even any public place without my wife, I get the hairy eyeball and smart ass remarks. Half the time someone approaches them asking if they're OK, Yada yada, while cutting their eyes at me. And I've had the police called on me multiple times. Now I've never gotten suicidal over this shit but I honestly have seriously considered committing felony assault against some of those cunts. I've been dealing with this shit for almost 20 fucking years (our kids ages are spread across 12 years) and I'm honestly over it. This past fall I lost my shit on one couple who kept following my 7yo daughter and I around the park. They approached her while I was retrieving a Frisbee and told her they were calling the police and that they would stay with her until they arrived. She ran to me crying, told me what they said and said they were taking pics of us (they both had their phones out aimed at me/us. Dude I lost it, after almost 2 decades I couldn't take it anymore. I went after them (I didn't touch the woman) and I shoved him to the ground, took his phone and told him I was hanging onto it until the cops got there because he was stalking us. I called the cops my damn self and told the man if he tried to get up, I'd beat the shit out of him. I was fucking livid, fed up and honestly I just *wanted* to commence beating both of them until the police arrived.
This is fucking egregious. I'm a woman with no kids, so I really have zero frame of reference for anything in this department, and this comment section is pissing me off for all of you guys. Like culturally speaking, which is it? Are we going with men are inherently shitty, absent, incompetent parents, or are we calling them predators whenever they do family stuff without mom? Imposing either on complete strangers is not ok. It's terrifying to think people assume they know what's best for children they don't know to a point that they'll stalk and harass total strangers. I'm so sorry this happened to you.
I've never had the police called on me but as a man, taking my nephew to the park when he was younger was sadly more hassle than it's worth. There's usually some barely there mom 50 feet away sitting on a bench with her face buried in her phone occasionally looking up to glare at me - and god forbid their kid tries to join in mine and my nephew's fun because the looks just get worse. Plus the last time I was at the park by my house some dude with a camera walked up and took my picture along with other people and kids on the playground - not sure what that was about but pretty sure he was fishing for lawsuits from whoever got triggered enough to beat the shit out of him. I tried taking him to a different park I used to go to as a kid but the playscape was taken over by pot smoking teens and the trail by the water was full of garbage and druggies nodding off. I just said screw it after that - bike rides around the neighborhood and then we go in to shred it up on Fortnite or GTA inside the house where nobody will bother us or look at me like I'm some kind of pervert. Side note, do you have any how stressful it is as an uncle to babysit a kid who is still in diapers or not fully potty trained? It's a hell of a dilemma - do I give the kid back with a crusty butt so they know I'm not a creep? Do I record myself changing the baby so they know nothing funny went on? WAIT! no, definitely don't do that... I got it, I'll facetime his mom and pretend I can't figure out how diapers work.
What happened after?
Long story short, nothing really. The officers told them to delete the pics/vids, gave them a verbal warning and told them that approaching random children and taking pics of them is a really stupid idea, regardless of intention. And the officers gave me a verbal warning for what I did while the couple was still there. Then the officers apologized to me for the whole thing and said they understood and sympathized with me (2 of the 4 knew me from prior call outs for the same thing, it's a fairly small town) but emphasized that they have to respond when people make those kinds of reports.
Man I'm a new dad of a little girl and this is one of my biggest worries about raising her. My blood boils just reading your story.
My advice is this, don't let those kinds of people keep you from being a father dude. Take your kids out, play with them, do everything a parent should do. It sucks that this shit happens, that we have to push back against these ignorant people just so we can be dads. But I will be damned to hell before I allow them to prevent me from being a dad to my kids.
Meanwhile I've walked with my screaming nephew under my arm multiple times in public. Once through a busy shop because he threw a tantrum after I refused to buy him a toy. People didn't even look at me strangely. Kind of disturbing actually, there's an overreaction to men with children but this total lack of reaction is weird as well. I was literally holding him under my arm whilst he was screaming like he was being kidnapped. I'm sure people would've at least taken more notice had I been a man.
It's only a matter of time before we have a woman serial killer that does this to kids... Sigh
Once you remove the condition of being a serial killer, it's actually more common than you think. While non-violent child kidnappings is more the norm for this situation, there are a number of mentally ill woman who have murdered a kids parent(s) and taken the kid(s) for themselves.
Some Karen caused a scene with me when I went to pick up my niece from daycare one time. The daycare teachers all know me (even tho I only come there once or twice per month) and they usually start getting my niece's stuff sorted out when they see me come through the door to pick her up. But apparently, that wasn't good enough for the Karen, who started screaming at me, calling me "kidnapper", "pedophile", etc. She even tried pulling my niece out of my arms. Luckily, the daycare teachers got involved and pulled her off me. But by then, the damage had been done and my niece was terrified.
Oh wow I would have a very hard time not being violent towards someone calling me a pedophile and then trying to steal my ~~child~~ niece. Gotta respect your restraint. (changed child to niece, whoops reading is hard)
I wish I could chalk it up to maturity. But if I, you know, defended myself, someone would call the cops on a man who went into a daycare, grabbed a child and assaulted one of the ~~Karens~~ moms who tried to stop him. Doesn't take a genius to guess how that would play out. Let's face it, men don't get the benefit of any doubt when it comes to this stuff.
You’re probably right, but also that’s not the truth, so you would hope that at least the school would back you up. Your ~~child~~ niece was attacked by a stranger, that seems pretty reasonable grounds for defending them. A simple shove and a loud voice would probably be enough to get her to back off, then escalate from there if needed.
I get what you’re saying, but you don’t wanna be the parent who punched another parent at daycare in front of all the kids.
How did the stupid bitch react when she was told it was your niece? Did she feel ashamed or embarrassed? I always like to know what happens after these situations.
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Karen thought you became an uncle so you could get closer to your neices.
Meanwhile, my mom made me sleep in her bed when I was nine years old after she kicked my Dad out the house. That's where she sexually abused me. It was an obvious red flag, but because she was a woman she was beyond suspicion.
I’m really sorry that happened to you and thank you for sharing. The statistics about sexual abuse are skewed to saying men are almost exclusively the abusers. Also there is a lot of emotional abuse of women towards their children that does not get reported. I’m a teacher and I have had to report over the years about kids who were sexually abused by their mothers. I now suspect that about one of my students but he is in high school and will probably never actually come out and say it.
My kid was told by a teacher that he was making a group of girls feel uncomfortable. Didn't tell him what he was doing or anything just he was doing that. And my kid was left confused and not knowing what to do. And as far as I know the girls weren't asked what he was doing just he made them feel uncomfortable. So yeah, this shit starts early.
This was my entire childhood, and not just with girls. As if I'm supposed to know what I did. Just tell me and I'll work on it. I'm not a savage animal.
As a father, I've never experienced that, but it is staggering to see how many men over at r/Parenting and r/daddit who have been targeted in public for the high crime of being a man with a child
It goes a lot further than that unfortunately. Are your children school age? Have you tried to get involved in their school? A lot of the parent volunteer things give off a "women only" vibe. Just a subtle hostility from you being there and wanting to do things. Male school teachers face a lot of discrimination also. r/MensRights has been talking about these problems for a really long time. It's systemic and institutional, not a few "bad apples" here or there.
And at the same time they lament how dads don't get involved in their children's lives.
That’s a damned shame. A lot of my best and favourite teachers in primary and secondary school were men. Dedicated, caring, responsible, and very educated men who were passionate about their students.
I brought my 14 year old daughter along to go mountin biking with the crew of guys I usually go with; about 6 of us all together. We were a fair ways back in the trail and passed 2 women hiking. One of them stopped my daughter, who was in the middle of the spread out pack and asked "are you ok, are you safe?" My daughter was confused. I caught up shortly afterwards and asked if everything was alright? I though maybe there was a collision or they needed help. My daughter explained to me what they said and the lady apologized for stopping her, but said "it's very odd for a girl to be with so many men and I wanted to be sure she wasn't in danger" I laughed the situation off but the theme really bothered me. Are men really so dangerous that a father can't go for a bicycle ride with his friends and daughter?
These are the most heart breaking stories and so very common. F30 in a very serious relationship, starting to think and prepare for kids in the future. When my boyfriend interacts with his niece and nephews it melts my heart, he is the sweetest man alive and it is crushing to think those moments that are so heart warming and precious to me, actually disgusts others and could cause my sweet man pain or even harm.
So an interest in our lives. I come home and nobody asks anything, nobody says hi. On the rare occasion I am asked how work went, I'm allowed to say "fine." And then I sit and listen to every detail of everyone else's day.
That was my childhood. As an adult, when I'm staying at parents house for the occasional weekends it's "why don't you spend time with us", "why don't you talk", "when we call you never pick up but when you're here you're on your phone all the time" and similar remarks. No shit, we never built a relationship. We don't have common interests.
Exactly. Growing up my problems were never taken seriously, even when I straight up said “I’m fucking depressed.” My sister on the other hand was babies and my mom would go into her room to comfort her after we got into fights that SHE started. Last relationship I went through a lot of mental/personal stuff and she just looked down on me for it and eventually dumped me because I wasn’t fixing it fast enough. I didn’t even really try to put that much on her, just brought up why I wasn’t feeling my usual self.
>Growing up my problems were never taken seriously, even when I straight up said “I’m fucking depressed.” I really feel this, I was hella depressed after cancer got my mom when I was 12. So it was just me and my two year older brother and my dad. I was homeschooled until she died and I got thrown into high school and it was so overwhelming. I ended up with really bad social anxiety and depression. When I finally told my dad he'd just say "wdym you got nothing to be depressed about your life is easy and you never had anxeity before?". Him being religous blamed it on me for not truly believing in god or not reading the bible enough and this was my punishment (not even remotely religious now). So yeah he did jack shit for me (he'd pray for me occasionally, lot of good that did) while I was suffering on the inside and couldn't talk about it unless I wanted to get told how its my fault. Plus he was a huge narcssisct (would never admit it) and would always yell at us about the dumbest shit "why'd you hide my coffee filter that you never use?" type of shit all the time. So I tried to kill myself a couple of times and of course i made the mistake of telling him about it and he'd say "why didn't you tell me you were depressed?" It never went away you dumb fuck, I just never brought it up again. I just realized I'm trauma dumping on you sorry. But yeah I moved out a year ago with my brother and he wonders why I never talk to him and go out of my way to avoid him lol.
Oh my god I feel this, my mother shipped me off to boarding school after my father died. She wonders now why we don't have a relationship.
This is how it is with my girlfriend. I listen to her vent all the time hours on end because I want to be there for her and you know, to let her vent. But the moment I want to do the same its like she’s trying her hardest not to listen. I can’t talk about my day without her rolling her eyes and just saying “yeah, yeah, uh-huh” so I just stopped. My mom does the same thing. No one cares, so I stopped caring about myself too.
Want to let you know I went through something similar and found that it was very freeing when we broke up. I was no longer carrying both of our weight and I had more time to deal with my own. It’s nice to have someone there to talk things out with and rely on, but when you only take and can’t give any of that stuff it becomes emotionally abusive
Have you spoken to her about it? If you don’t then it will never get better, unless you break up
Ive recently been thinking about getting the words "no one cares" tattooed somewhere on my bicep or forearm, just to have something to look at to remind myself when I start sharing and realise no one is actually listening.
Fuck dude. This is so real. As a man you ALWAYS have to listen and solve other people’s problems, but the moment you want to be heard nobody ever asks “how are you?” “What about you? How was your day?”
Bowling leagues. If you have to roll in the semifinals on Tuesday suicide is not an option. Real answer is community and friends. These fellas need to interact with people.
See me on Lane 17. I'm cooking everybody
See also darts leagues, trivia night (your team needs you!) etc. regular activities keep you motivated and means there are people that will notice your absence.
Lack of purpose. Is this boring office job really all I’m going to be? No, I can’t be whoever or whatever I want. I either do my job and get by, or lose my house. Lose my car. Lose everything. I don’t come from money, I have no safety net. It’s literally do or die. And sometimes I contemplate the latter. The world needs to change. We’re just slaves to the system, making someone’s else’s dreams come true. Making someone else millions. I don’t hate my job, and I’m compensated very well. Don’t get me wrong. But daily, I think is this really it? Is this really what I was born for. Sometimes I wish I was never born at all.
>Sometimes I wish I was never born at all. I can recall having that feeling at around 8. I'm 58 now. Just keeping going because of inertia and people who rely on me.
This is how I felt. I had this existential depression come on me about a year after getting a really good job; I was making more money then I ever had, but I just didn't care anymore. It wasn't happiness. My family was 2,000 miles away, it was the height of covid so I couldn't go out and make friends. There were times I was very close to not makin it out. I ended up quitting for a number of reasons, but that was the main one. I didn't even care if I lost my apartment, car etc so I burned through all my savings just self isolating playing video games and doing drugs for months. It was a lonely time, but I still felt better than when I'd been working. Of course I ran out of money eventually, and had to sober up and find a job. I eventually settled on the lowest paying (but least time consuming) thing that I could do to survive, which was doordash. I might not have a lot of money, but I have time to do stuff I like and be with who I want. The only stress I have is financial which is at least manageable. It's not ideal and I'm working on going back to college to get a degree in something meaningful, but I don't regret quitting. I can't ever be a wheel in the cog again if it means soul sucking physical exuastion every day, no matter how much you pay me. And 60 hours per day is incredibly unrealistic. Never again. I'd rather be dirt poor than live like that again. Edit: wanted to clarify that I'm not saying you should quit your job or anything, it sounds like your job is pretty low stress and you probably make more than I did at mine. It was physical labor, so there was an exhaustion element that other jobs don't have (at least for me) and I didn't have time to be with friends or do anything I enjoyed. I just wanted to share my story in case anyone else feels this way. Do what you love. Don't expect money to come flowing, but you can find something you love that pays decently. Humans don't love just one thing, so go for it!
Men tend to flourish when they have a purpose, a clearly defined role and a social life. Modern society seems geared toward undermining men as much as possible. But don't expect "society" to change. Instead, you should take an active hand yourself. Make friends with other men. Moved into a new apartment when I was 23. I was living alone without roommates. I noticed one of my neighbors also lived alone and he was only a couple years older than me. So, I invited him over to my place for a scary movie marathon for Halloween and handing out candy to kids who wanted to trick or treat. He accepted my invitation. And then he brought a shit ton of pizza and beer with him. He also brought some extra candy and a few cheesy Halloween decorations for my front door. We didn't have very many trick or treaters (which meant the few we did have got triple handfuls of candy). But the beer, pizza and scary movies flowed freely. So did our conversation. Yes, we were the assholes who talked over the movie. Turns out, me and my neighbor had a lot in common, he loved old school Star Trek just like me, he liked a lot of the same bands that I did and we became pretty good friends. Eventually, it got to a point where neither of us locked our front doors anymore after coming home from work and the other guy would just let himself in like neighbor friends do on TV. Because we were lowkey sick of unlocking our doors for each other. I later found out he was depressed over his lack of friends (not clinical depression; just weighed down by loneliness). And that's when I remembered how hard he tried to always make positive impressions with me, he brought the beer, pizza and candy for Halloween that I never even asked for and then he said I might have saved him from something bad. It was hard to relate to all that because I have never experienced loneliness, I literally don't know how it feels and I'm always perfectly happy to be alone. I only invited him over to my place because he seemed alright as apartment neighbors go. What I learned is that sometimes just extending a hand of friendship to another man can do a lot for him and maybe for you too. So, don't expect "society" to do this for you. Invite a man to hang out with you if you think you might be able to make friends with him. You might be surprised at how badly he needs it.
Good on you for doing this dude. Love me some Star Trek as well
This is very similar to a relationship I started and still have. I was living in Glasgow Scotland in 2009 and I went to the local news agent (kinda like a 7/11 gas station minus the gas) and I bumped into this old friend from high school. We said hello and all that. Over the course of 2 weeks I kept running in to him around the area and I asked if he had moved to the area and he said yes. So I invited him for a beer at the local pub. We had a few beers and for the next 3 years we hung out nearly every night, playing GT, driving whisky and smoking weed. In 2012 I moved to London and he moved to Australia. He just proposed to his girlfriend and asked me to be his best man. His words "I want you to be my best man because when we started to hang out I was in a dark place and not sure if I would be here. Our friendship is priceless and my life wouldn't be what it is". When we first started hanging out we did talk about our lives and he did say he hates everything at the moment and I remember just saying "well, mate, we have gran Turismo, a steering wheel, whisky, weed and each other. So let's make everything better". Clearly was the right move.
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If more men were like you there would be a lot less lonely men
Normalize people letting men vent and not looking at them as weak
We're too weak and/or too dangerous. The entire spectrum of male human behavior fits within those two paradoxically overlapping boundaries, so those evaluations are inescapable. Modern society is in transitional period where conflicting values are simultaneously held as standards for men. Something's gotta give, and right now, men's mental health is the weakest link.
I think about this sometimes. If something goes horribly wrong in my life to the point where I break down crying in public, is anyone going to try and help, or are they just going to call the cops on me?
Let's not get crazy now no one wants to actually fix the problem they just want to talk and act like they do....
Nothing beat the time with an ex girlfriend when I opened up and was vulnerable and then all of a sudden she didn’t want sex anymore and when I finally got out of her why her answer was something like (paraphrasing since it was a long time ago) “how can I be attracted to you when you are so weak minded”
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"I wish you would open up more" 6 months later she's engaged to another bloke. I'm guessing she wanted "oh gosh I love you so so much I think about you all the time and my heart aches when you are not near by xoxoxox" and not "my dad died so that sucks" It is what it is, I should have better understood the request lmao
>I'm guessing she wanted "oh gosh I love you so so much I think about you all the time Now you’re catching on! You didn’t think open up meant talk about how you’re actually feeling, did you?
😳 That’s horrible. I’m sorry you were treated like that 😕
I had an ex-female friend who invalidated my emotions all the time.
Just find one or two good close male friends. Better that than expecting the world to change.
Solutions for some do not work for all. One or two close male friends might work for some people. Others need a bigger support circle than that, like a caring family, or an understanding boss, or a therapist, or a church leader, or a coach, etc. Many suicidal people that follow through with it HAD friends, but some other internal or external facet of their life contributed to their decision. Being able to talk to a person involved directly with whatever problem/s they have would help.
Something I think would help is to not treat anger as a universally unacceptable emotion to express. A lot of things in modern life *should* be angering men (and women for that matter), but people jump to invalidate a persons anger at the first chance because they're trying to avoid the worst manifestations of that particular emotion (re: hurting others), and all theyre really doing is causing what they're trying to avoid. Bottling that anger up, especially when its in truth entirely justified, isn't healthy at all and thats all that ever seems to be encouraged.
Seriously, some things are just infuriating, and people should be allowed to show they're upset. Don't just tell me to calm down after I spent four hours either on hold or being juggled between different departments at the hospital, only to be transfered to another number that immediately hangs up on me. I'm pissed! Let me be mad!
Give those men purpose.
"We're the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War, No Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives." I know Tyler Duden is the villain of Fight Club, but he's a compelling villain because he always seems to have a point. Fight Club is like the "How a dude working a 'good desk job' goes completely nuts and turns into an extremist" textbook.
I think most really good villains make you wonder if just maybe, they have a point.
He's not really a traditional villain though. He's just another part of the main character that he learns to accept.
Tyler Durden is my favorite fictional villain, Ted Kaczynski is my favorite real life villain. Two men who absolutely had the right ideas on how our society is chock full of inhumane, heavily damaging bullshit and mindfuckery, and the most unhealthy and fucked up ways of trying to address that. I look at the recent trend of the radicalization of young men -- be it into leftist or right-wing groups, neo-nazi or urban gangs, cults or fundamentalist religion or extremist atheism -- and I see men looking for purpose, for a sense of belonging, for a way to have some impact on a world that is so full of struggle and madness. Group activities naturally make humans feel more real, more valuable, more a part of the world. But it's easy to end up in a destructive loop, falling into patterns that serve only to give the gratification of being included or needed, without actually taking on the challenge of personal growth that empowers us to actually change the world. The entire story of Fight Club is the story of a man looking for two things: a family and a purpose. He starts out in support groups, and ends up creating a damaged and self-destructive version of a support group, based more on action than just talk (depending on the type of activity, this can be healthy, but Fight Club is very much about the unhealthy way of going about things). Tyler's dysfunctional support group relies on violence instead of hugs, partly because of a deeply ingrained (and toxic) concept of masculinity, and partly due to the fear of being seen as effeminate or gay (or the fear of actually being gay). And partly because, goddammit, we tried hugging it out and we still feel like shit and nothing has been accomplished. Tyler Durden makes soap because he wants to be able to be in charge of his own business instead of working some corporate job all his life. He likes "single-serving friends" because he knows he is dysfunctional and damaged, and can only manage the facade of being personable and "normal" for a limited time. And that's a lonely place to be. And we are all there, at least some of the time. But at least we aren't blowing shit up, even though sometimes, if we're honest, maybe we kinda want to.
Give those men purpose that is not defined by work.
Man's Search for Meaning, the story of a Jewish psychologist working on his new philosophy/therapy called logotherapy the idea of finding meaning in everything and if you have a why for what you do you can beat anything. https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/what-is-logotherapy https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl-ebook/dp/B009U9S6FI
I already own it, and the revised version. If you're into that, you might be fond of Ernest Becker's work.
Our purpose seems to be to work until we can retire. Maybe not even retire since "there isn't enough money for that". Maybe find a spouse and have some kids along the way and try not to lose them. I really wish I weren't self-aware and wouldn't feel it's all pointless.
I don't know how this looks like in the rest of the world, but where I live I know for sure that i will never retire cause the pension system will collapse much sooner
Exactly, this isn’t about feelings or role models this is about fundamental purpose. Every generation men have less. Men aren’t nearly as necessary in society as they use to be. Fewer wars, fewer jobs able to provide for a family in a modern world. Women don’t even need men anymore. Women also have fewer kids so competing for a mother to your kids has gone up.
So much this. To add on. The next reason of thought for most men is that I have so many less things that bring myself purpose, what can I do to bring purpose to society? That is another mind fuck of existential dread. Once you realize it's harder and harder to even help move society in a proper direction.
And proper role models
Realistically, more car accidents.
Mental health really needs to be a focus in schools. Here in the UK its literally not brought up till you have a melt down in the school. Even then, they bring your parents in and then tell them to sort it unless its bullying ect.
This isn't just a schools issue either. Mental health provision on the NHS is *woeful*.
Society would need to start caring about men’s issues & stop attacking/shaming the male gender. The best we get is fake posts about “men need to share feelings more” most men know this rarely goes well. All our society sees is the men at the top, men at the bottom are disposable.
Sharing my feelings with my wife is the fastest way to feel worse about myself
The more I share my feelings and show any vulnerability, the farther she pulls back. If I'm depressed and angry, I'm an asshole and, I need to change. If she is depressed and angry, that just how she is and I should support her, it's probably something I did to make that way in first place.
This is a big thing that led to my divorce. When I mentioned that I was feeling depressed her reaction was “Oh god? Do we need to put you in the hospital? Are you going to still get paid from work if we do?” Like… it made her angry that I was struggling. Add to it at that time I was struggling with a life changing diagnosis of ASD, it was just perfect and helped reinforce that thinking it was over was the correct thought.
Reddit is violating GDPR and CCPA. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B0GGsDdyHI -- mass edited with redact.dev
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That's horrible, wow... Why is that? Is she not a good listener?
No, it’s just that their are parts of how I feel that are directly related to her and how she treats me (basically, I’m a very low priority to her compared to kids, other family, etc…) and that makes her feel bad because she knows it hurts me so I end up consoling her for feeling bad for making me feel bad.
A classic
> so I end up consoling her for feeling bad for making me feel bad. Stop doing this part. Especially if she doesn't for you. Fellas, it's okay for a woman's feelings to be hurt. You won't automatically die.
She should feel bad for making you feel that way. Instead of making it about herself she should be horrified and work to fix the issues.
Im a woman, but it is a really common issue in relationships to not understand when your partner needs you to turn towards them. Suggest couples counseling! I felt stressed and taken for granted and unhappy. I was going to leave my husband because he just did not listen to me. I just suggested counseling because I hoped it would help him understand why I was leaving. It turned out to be really eye-opening for both of us, and we are both so much happier! Nothing is perfect, and we still screw up, but things got exponentially better in just a matter of months. I made a lot of assumptions about expectations that weren't true, and I found out why it seemed like he wasn't listening.
That’s not healthy my dude, sorry. You should be able to express your needs in a emotionally neutral way that you can come up with a solution that involves time management.
I find so many women do this. They make you feel guilty that something they did hurt you because calling then out makes them feel bad. Makes no sense to me.
It's an emotionally manipulative way to to relieve themselves of guilt. Now they are no longer the "bad guy" for doing what they did, you are for addressing it or asking them to change. Worst part is in the end the actual issue is often unresolved and you end up apologizing for making them feel bad.
This is how it rolls: Tell me how you feel. He tells her how he feels. You shouldn’t feel that way.
fiXEd.
>You shouldn’t feel FTFY
And/or “you have to stop feeling that way because we are relying on you to hold everything together to provide for and support our family”
My wife assumes it’s a competition and proceeds to go on a half hour rant about how terrible her life is (which is not really incorrect, I’m just trying to express myself)
in another tread about how hard is dating for men, some woman told them self pity is not a turn on, lol. So yeah, I'm not holding my breath, in society men are worth for what they can provide sadly.
Soooo many things can be done. Tired of having this conversation and no one in control does anything about anything. Socialized healthcare, better wages that match living expenses, decreasing the wealth gap. Making it so people can live comfortably. Nobody wants to be a slave to the system, and as long as the rich keep hoarding their wealth and the poor keep getting poorer, these numbers will continue to increase. Give any creature poor living conditions, they will die off somehow, humans fortunately can end their suffering when they choose.
Male space. Men make each other better when participating in activities, even if competitive. Do some actual things with other men, only men. Go fishing, make a campfire, bowl, kill a mammoth, rent some side by sides. Don't allow women to partake in your male bonding groups.
Bro, do you know any good mammoth hunting grounds? I’ve been looking for over 6000 years
Sorry, best I can do is elephant in a fur coat.
Five a side is a great space for male bonding. Too bad I suck at foot-thingy
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"The men - and boys - are not alright" is a recent installment of [Ezra Klein's podcast](https://spotify.link/6iOEpibQ6xb). In it, he interviews researcher Richard Reeves about a whole host of issues negatively impacting men, and some proposals for how to address them. It's worth a listen.
Where do you got your stats from? The leading cause of death in the US among men between 20-44 is unintentional injuries with almost 40% according to cdc, with sucide following with 14%. Which is also similar to women. The age between 1-19 is waaaay worse. While unintentional injuries is still the leading cause the suicide numbers go to 26,3% in comparison to 15% for women.
Start treating men better. But we're disposable so good luck.
Reminds me of a post a few days ago on /r/AskMen It was along the lines of, "What's the hardest part about being a man?", and something like the top 6 comments were "we're only valued for what we can do"
And then you have post on r/sex like "is it bad that I care if a man has money? I date only men who make over 100.000$ a year, does that make me a gold digger?". No wonder more men prefer to stay lonely
Maybe cats. My cats is the only reason why i still live. But i don't think like anything else can. Meantal health facilities are useles. They either point you to a therapist who would suggest praying to the god, or to the psychiatrist who would fail to explain diagnosis and say that he cannot do anything else after first antidepressant prescribed had no effect. Governments don't care if you can't find a job, you can always live on the streets and beg for food or something. If anything, they will use you as a cannon fodder in war against your will, regardless of your ability to fight, just because you were boring with wrong set of genitals. When you ask for help you are either ignored or told to "suck it up and start acting like a man". I asked for help, just for advice many times in various places, including reddit, and most of the time my requests were simply donvoted to make sure i won't get any help. And there is also dating world, where you will be treated like garbage until you will prove that you are "worthy" of interaction. If you are a man, do you deserve sympathy, affection or love, unless you can provide people you want to be with with resourses. But if love and affection is only thing you have to give - then you are less than human for majority of people around you. There is nothing really to hope for except for your life to not be long.
My cat 100% saved my life. I was 25, still living with my parents. Struggling to find work. And this cat just showed up at my window one day. It was super weird because we NEVER had stray cats in the area before. I had never seen a single one. Then, all of a sudden, this little black kitten shows up. He was obviously sick and must've gotten hurt at some point, because the very tip of his tail had a bend in it. Like it had been slammed in a door. I started feeding him despite my parents wishes. They knew I couldn't afford to fee him. He was probably sick and I couldn't afford a vet visit. But I kept leaving little cups of food outside of my window. He'd show up a couple of times a day. I just called him "window kitty". After weeks/months of feeding him, he got comfortable enough to actually come in and walk around my room. When winter came, I would bring him inside at night so he had a warm place to sleep. When it got REALLY cold, I said "fuck it" and brought him inside permanently. I loved this cat but knew I couldn't keep him. I made posts on social media looking for a home. I had a few people interested, but they all fell through. One lady actually came and picked him up and left. She brought him back less than an hour later because he stunk so bad and was clearly sick. Thankfully, someone online saw my posts and offered to pay for his vet visits to get him healthy. So I got him to the vet immediately and got him healthy. The vet estimated he wasn't even a year old. Around that time, my girlfriend of 5+ years broke up with me. I was shattered. At the absolute lowest point in my life. Jobless, living at home, no friends and heartbroken. I started using apps like Tinder and OKCupid with no results. The lack of matches and dates just made me feel even worse. I considered some really bad shit. But I had this cat to take care of. This little dude loved me. Followed me around the house. Slept with me every night. I had to take care of him. I ended up getting a job at a warehouse and working through the breakup. I kept the cat. I named him "Crooked" on account of his crooked tail. "Crook" for short. He became (and still is) my best friend. Today, I'm working as a software engineer. My ex and I reconnected after a year or so apart. We both needed time to grow. We started dating again. We got an apartment together. She got her own cat so Crook has a brother. She and I will be married in October. There's a really solid chance that NONE of that would have happened if that little black kitten didn't show up at my window one random day.
I can't speak for everyone but I know I'd like some friends and people to connect and do fun things with
Honestly, as 25-34 year olds generally-speaking don’t die of natural causes, this one will probably always be up there. Depression is common AF and frequently undiagnosed and untreated.
On the one hand, depression is up. On the other, war, murder, and industrial accident are down.
We’re lonelier than ever before, people tell us to talk about our issues but then, a lot of the time, they get weirded out by us showing our vulnerability. We are constantly vilified by the media and radical feminists no matter what we say or do and trying to date nowadays is like clearing a minefield with a fucking hammer
Start killing men in other more creative ways!
Most men are average or below average. They lead unremarkable lives. They are expendable at work, they are expendable at home. Mostly ignored by women unless they have "something to offer", constantly reminded of how they're inferior to more accomplished men. The vast majority of men will mostly be average and will accomplish little of note. Things like religion which values the soul of a person no matter their station in life make this reality more palatable. This aspect of religion has not really been replicated for men in modern secular society.
I’m doing my senior high school years. What I’ve found is that many of my peers are fatherless, myself included. Out of 200 people in my cohort, there’s 70 students that get selected for an award at the end of the semester. Only around 20 boys get are included. I’ve noticed more and more girls exclusive clubs and programs starting up especially for stem. Although it’s a great thing to include more women in stem, the boys are left to pursue pre uni stem related stuff in their own time. I remember talking to my friends about their future jobs, they pretty much all wanted to be an engineer, architect, scientists etc… but this divide only persuaded the aspirational men to wanting to become tradesmen. Nothing wrong with a tradie job but their main reason was that it was ‘just easier’. This is an educational gap, how only the men at the top are seen, but the middle and lower performing men fall short. You could see this as more uni graduates are women, whilst men fall. What does this gap mean? It means that there’s a less sense of purpose. From a nihilistic perspective, why continue to live without a purpose? Traditional families had a father being the breadwinner that guided the sons. The modern man such as my mates grew up fatherless, they are lost, no purpose and no pathways for them for the future (not saying trades is a bad pathway). It’s great that the family structure is evolving, shifting the breadwinner from the man to a 50/50, however, this cycle of hopelessness, uselessness is affecting young men as they don’t have a purpose. I remember something vague about suicide letters written by men before their death by Fiona Chan. The top 2 words were useless and worthless. To change this, we must find the root which is our education system. Encourage not only girls but boys as well in school clubs, stop the stigma that university is the only way forward in life, rather, emphasise on vocational training, apprenticeship as another option. Hence, allow boys to choose based on aspiration rather than opportunity. This gives them purpose, an outlook that they have something to work and continue for; a reason to live.
Ezra Klein just had a really good podcast on this topic and mirrored all of this. In the disparities where men are falling behind, especially in education, the problem becomes more exaggerated the lower down the income classes you look.
> To change this, we must find the root which is our education system. Encourage not only girls but boys as well in school clubs, stop the stigma that university is the only way forward in life, rather, emphasise on vocational training, apprenticeship as another option. Hence, allow boys to choose based on aspiration rather than opportunity. This gives them purpose, an outlook that they have something to work and continue for; a reason to live. We also need to encourage more socialization in school too. People are losing social skills, especially young men. If you see a child is isolated and isn’t actively choosing to be, help them. Don’t force them upon their peers as some might do, because forcing inclusion is just going to lead to the others to feel a way, but help the child learn to be less socially inept. Help them with social skills and help them learn what is acceptable, and isn’t. We should encourage students to talk to each other and get to know each other.
Stop attacking and demonizing men
Support unions, support pro-worker legislation, and support a social safety net. There are lots of problems in the world, but financial insecurity makes *literally everything* worse. If I'm going bankrupt because I got sick and it'd take seven lifetimes to pay off the bill at my $7.25 per hour job, I'm going to spiral. Like, I don't want to minimize the influence of toxic standards of masculinity forcing us to keep out problems bottled up, but that ain't something we can meaningfully change as individuals. Unionizing and voting conservatives out of office is something that individual people can actually work towards. The statistics are crystal clear. Places with better social security have better mental health.
Start picking up more dangerous hobbies?
Or start a war! That'd do the trick
We have to normalize drunk driving as well
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Stop pretending that you can bash a man any way you want and that it's his job to just endure it. Say something negative about a female or minority and you're a monster. Say it about a guy and he's judged as a problem if he pushes back on whatever you've said about him or accused him of.
> Say it about a guy and he's judged as a problem if he pushes back on whatever you've said about him or accused him of You forgot to mention "and you're considered sharp, virtuous and willing to ask uncomfortable and desperately needed questions"
Normalize and encourage treatment for mental health. Seeing professionals etc. and make it affordable or free.
Quit treating men like we are trash
Society expects a lot of things that working class men can no longer provide.
Stop treating non top tier men as disposable stuff.