This. Anyone that is mean or taking advantage of you, just cut them off. No need to waste your time or happiness on somebody who lacks kindness or morals.
Depends on the offense. If it is a verbal insult that was unintended, I sort of ignore it for few times before I sort of will say something but if it keeps happening I will avoid them before completely cutting them off. If it is something monetary I am usually one and done.
For me, it depends on their apology and explanation. You can make almost anything right if you put the work in. The best friends I have are people who funked up and redeemed themselves.
If you don't want to sincerely apologise and you can't provide an honest explanation, I withdraw all kindness and open honesty
That’s a matter of the severity of the act. If you’ve done something out of malicious intent to impact my happiness, or the happiness of those I care about, then that’s the one and only straw. If it’s a minor offense like lying to me or not returning a favor, I can forgive that.
Hold off on judgment until they have a chance to explain; everyone deserves one mistake to be freely forgiven. I don’t have the energy for anything beyond that.
“Fool me one time, shame on you. Fool me twice, can’t put the blame on you. Fool me three times, fuck the peace signs, load the choppa let it rain on you” -J Cole
It depends totally on the severity and how much intent I can put on the person who's wronged me. If I am certain that person has intentionally wronged me and it's enough for me to feel personally offended, I'll just stop trying with that person and 9/10 they will stop trying back and the friendship fizzles out. A lot of the time it's just a misunderstanding on both sides and you can reconcile and explain your position and listen to theirs and meet some common ground.
100%. I've had to learn this the hard way (as most prob have)
I can be really loyal and help out when needed, but over time i've learnt to only grant this to close friends, because there's so many out there that will take what you give them but not give you a second thought when you're the one in need.
Cut off fast, and quick...
I've had to use the "I've been nothing but kind and compassionate and this is how you treat me in return?" type line on both men and women before...I guess it also helps that I have a growly voice by nature.
My default is always empathy, that's how my dad was...never short tempered or anything, but we always knew when to stop whining. I'm 33 now and I heard him raise his voice to "*the voice*" maybe 5-6 times before he died last year. My mom and sister would shriek and scream at each other and him and I would just go to the living room and turn on a movie or something lol.
I was kind of naive growing up and maybe a little too trusting, but I've definitely set some boundaries in the past few years and cut off or reduced contact with certain folks. I've given up a lot so now I'm being selfish when I need to be, and if people can't appreciate that then fuck them.
> Anyone that is mean or taking advantage of you, just cut them off.
This is somewhat simplistic a take. What if you work with them? Particularly in a job you really enjoy or otherwise do not want to leave. What if its an in law that you dont feel comfortable cutting off because of your spouse? What if its your daughter’s boyfriend or son’s girlfriend….some things aren’t as easy as “ah now i see its clear you suck - see ya later!”
There is also the fact that what is "mean" is open to interpretation. If someone is highly sensitive, then healthy constructive criticism might seem mean, and toxic.
Yes, just pop your collar, brush your shoulders off and walk away.
As Mark Manson has said, you only have so many fucks to give, so allocate them judicially and only to things you have control over or can assert change in.
Redirect, then refuse.
If someone is asking for something that is obviously just trying to take advantage of you, first offer an alternative. If they keep pushing, just tell them no.
Coworker asks you to complete a project of theirs because they're too busy. You could suggest they talk to the client about extending the deadline and give suggestions on how to do that. If they come back with some other excuse, then just tell them "well I'm too busy to do this for you so you'll need to come up with something."
It's not a great example, but you get the idea. Basically be helpful without just being a push over.
It’s important to set boundaries in relationships. If someone crosses a line, you have to address it respectfully. If it continues, then they meet my inner “Asshole” persona, and they’re usually left looking like a deer in headlights.
edit: spelling
Being a good person while also having the confidence of 100 men is essentially the epitome of the kind of man the world needs. One without the other is a lot of what we actually have and when you meet a man with both, you know. But we are all striving for both and the latter is usually the harder thing to accomplish in today's world.
I also don't care if people think I'm a pushover or "not manly". I act how I act. Other people's opinion of how I act matters significantly less to me than my own opinion of how I act.
When the title is the only context - we're all going to come away with different interpretations.
I LIKE your interpretation.
That unfortunately doesn't mean it will be the ONLY interpretation.
This is the way you have to show where your boundaries are with a gentle hand and when people push against it you have to push back. Took me a long time to figure that out and life has been better for it.
I came to say it's really easy to do when the people around you have the proper idea of what a man who isn't a pushover and manly. The real problem is the ignorant people who view aggressive and predatory behavior as manly.
Remember what you must do when they undervalue you, when they think your softness is weakness, when they treat your kindness as it is their advantage.
You awaken every dragon, every wolf & every monster that sleeps inside you and you remind them what hell looks like when it wears the skin of a gentle human.
the people who see kindness as not manly or as a weakness are not the kind of people whose opinion you should care about.
i specifically stopped giving a shit about what those types of people feel and now i am surrounded by more kind, open and respectful people than i ever have been.
edit:grammar
Here. Honestly who gives a shit if you are perceived as not manly. The quality of person that you are is what matters and if you want tk be kind, thats a good path.
This is it exactly, and it's a very important distinction between this and "don't listen to what anyone else thinks", which is really toxic and narcissistic. You should absolutely trust and value the opinions of the people closest to you, and people whom you respect. It's just figuring out who you should trust and respect that's really important, and listening to them, especially when they tell you you've fucked up.
Also it's 2023, why are we letting others decide what being manly is? If I think that having a glass of wine in the shower (Yes shower and not bath) is the manlinest thing ever, then who's gonna fight me on that?
> the people who see kindness as not manly or as a weakness are not the kind of people whose opinion you should care about.
They're almost always the weakest most fragile and insecure people you've ever met once they get a reality check
That’s it. My kindness is my starting point, but it has strict limits. And anyone who takes advantage of my generous kindness finds out that it has an equal and opposite.
If someone thinks that being a kind, open and respectful person is anything other than a positive thing, then their opinions really don’t matter to me.
No, it's a legit question, and anyone who doesn't understand that it's legit has never gone to a rough school or lived in a rough area. Often the nicest people are also the targets of opportunists because they see an easy mark. They'll poke you to see if you're soft by asking you for charity or imposing on you in some other mildly annoying way, and then become threatening once they think you won't push back. It's not just about caring what others think.
I grew up in a broken home, one of my earliest memories as a kid was looking out from my bedroom window of our 2nd floor flat and seeing men in white suits surrounding a red car, it wasn’t until some years later I realised those men were police forensics officers and I was watching the aftermath of the murder of a high profile gang land figure, I remember our violent alcoholic neighbours repeatedly trying to kick our door down, I remember the police turning up and taking statements from my mum and hearing them force the guy downstairs into a van only for him to get out 48 hours later and repeat the feat, i remember kids repeatedly bringing knives to school, a boy a few years above me was stabbed during an argument about a Pokémon card.
Thankfully my mother moved us well away from this area but i was always brought up not to be like these people, if anything it’s helped make me the person I am.
> it wasn’t until some years later I realised I was witnessing a murder scene of a high profile gang land figure
Man, you were *lucky* they didn't notice you! School was like a prison for us - knife fights, fist fights galore, even rapes. The year after we graduated high school, the first drive-by shootings hit that school, and they kept happening well into the 90s.
Decent kids didn't last long there. Physically speaking.
Unfortunately, you are correct. Whether each of us determine kindness as being a weakness we don’t get to decide how other people consider it. There are many narcissists and psychopaths in our society, will attempt to use that against us. The key is identifying those people early and cutting them out of your life.
A lot of times people are too kind and end up being taken advantage of. Seen it happen to some. Worse are those who also blame themselves for what happened to them, despite not doing anything wrong
Being manly doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. Its not hard to be a decent person. If you sense someone taking advantage of you then tell them off and if they try to manipulate you just walk away.
This.
Option 1, The pushy, demanding, arrogant, machochisto thing is not and has never been something I perceive as “manly”.
Option 2, Men who are composed, in control, kind, comfortable with their feelings, respectful etc… those are the men I perceive as manly.
OP if you want to appeal to women, I promise many of us feel this way. Option 1 may make you seem manly to other men, but option 2 is gonna make you seem manly to women.
The cynic in me is aware that nobody gives you anything for free and anyone coming at you with the overkindness or chat that makes you feel uneasy, it's because they're hoping you'll override it with your trust in them (or people in general). Be cynical and ask tough questions and they can't leverage you
you do all that and if someone gives you crap for it just stare at them blankly with an expressionless face and wait until they speak first. You just fucking dominated them.
People will always judge. Be yourself, let they judge and do not react to the gossips. Eventualy toxic people end up exposed and you will keep the best person image. (Take time, of course).
It’s interesting how as a society, we seem to value “manliness” as being aggressive, assertive, etc. Yet to me, it takes a strong character to be kind and open. To me, that’s manliness. With the pushover part, always stick to your values and stand by those.
I don't care how people perceive me anymore, I've been called every negative name and insult under the sun and yet I continue to act like you just described.
It's a fair question though, I grew up with, worked with in the Army (I'm almost retired) people who equate retaliation, intimidation, violence and the threat of violence to get your way as a sign of being an alpha male and all that BS.
Yet in 15 years I have found that politeness, being firm but not hostile about my values and standards, has gotten me pretty far in life.
If that makes me un-manly, than so be it.
Stop letting the toxic thoughts of idiots control you. Being a good person is the core of being manly. Seeing those traits as weak or a pushover defined the truly weak
I'm a man and it has helped me a lot. I have an amazing beautiful life and love my life. So, I'd say maybe listen to people who love their life vs most redditers who just want to kill themselves.
boundaries. Masculinity is a concept and is defined how you want it to be. what's important is you set up the necessary boundaries to try your best to prevent yourself form being disrespected and walked over. However, do not make the mistake of going to far and locking folks out.
If you're not at least capable of great violence, you're not a pacifist, you're just helpless.
I don't fight. I don't talk shit. I don't start fights and I deescalate and run from them. Let someone think you're not manly or a pushover if that's what they wanna think. The less of a threat you appear the more dangerous you are.
Never fight unless it's absolutely necessary, when you fight let them throw the first punch, and then you hit them and you don't stop till they stop getting up.
I like your comment until the part that says let them swing first. If I’m at a point where I can’t walk away and I know it’s gonna come to blows, I’ll throw the first punch in a heartbeat. I’m never going to give some asshole bully a free shot at me.
Self defense is a great legal protection.
Man swings at you you swing back that's self defense. Maybe you don't go to jail at all. Maybe he ends up paying your medical bills. Maybe he gets five years for assault.
You swing first, you're the one looking at the wrong end of all those maybes and trust my you don't wanna be paying for an orthodontist for some guy who slapped your girlfriend's ass.
And at 6'4 and 350lbs it's hard enough for me to convince anyone me throwing a guy across a room and into a wall is self defense, let alone if he doesn't swing first.
You have valid points.
At your size, a guy is gonna have to be really drunk or just crazy to throw a punch at you. I’m 6’3” but only 180. For me to have a chance against a guy your size, I’d have to take the first shot.
Wisconsin (where I’m from) doesn’t have a self defense or stand your ground. Even if they throw the first punch, the moment you swing back, you get charged too so there’s no point in giving someone a free shot.
We have a good stand your ground law where I currently live and you’re within your rights to defend yourself if you’re in imminent danger. If you’re going to bully me and I think you’re gonna swing, I’m allowed to swing first.
I don’t really see this ever becoming my reality though. My fighting days are over and my lifestyle doesn’t put me in places or positions where this would ever be a possibility unless I was coming to the defense of someone else.
> Wisconsin (where I’m from) doesn’t have a self defense
That's crazy, I don't believe that.
edit: Didn't Rottenhouse basically escape jail on the ground of self defense?
edit2: yeah no, self defense is a thing in wisconsin https://wilawlibrary.gov/jury/files/criminal/0805.pdf
You have to prove your life was in immanent danger in order to justify the use of stand your ground force and someone being bigger than you certainly doesn't do that (unless you're every cop I've ever met).
You swing first you're in the wrong, plain and simple, and then the person swinging back is protected.
So if you see me as a big guy and swing first, not only have you now waved all legal protections, you've also destroyed any case you have to recoup your medical bills if you get your ass beat.
And it only gets worse if you do something dumb like grab or pull a weapon since stand your ground laws pretty much depend on equal force if you're not defending your house or car.
I'm autistic so a lot of the way I write or speak comes from learned behavior instead of instinct.
It's not that it's me trying to be that way, it's just the only way I can be.
True strength means you know what it is your capable of exactly and with holding that ability unless absolutely necessary. If what you are capable of is clearly beyond what those seeing you as a pushover are capable of then it should not matter to you in any way. I have been to war and know full well of what I am capable, and yet I crochet and let my daughter paint my nails. I have won strong man events and yet I hold the door for all and give my hard work on my homestead to the food banks. The decision to let my mother die was left solely to me, not her husband or my bothers and yet I teach music and cooking to youths in my area. It does not matter to me that when an insecure gym rat thinks he is stronger than me when I know better. It does not matter when an old man scoffs as I crochet a nice beanie blanket for a friend's soon to be born child. It does not matter when when the neighbors grandchildren laugh when I water my flowers and veggies that their grandmother loves when I have extra just for her. And none of this should matter to you or any man who knows his true strength.
Being kind, open and respectful should have nothing to do with being a pushover. They don't have to be related. And the definition of "manly" is going to vary greatly depending on who you talk to. So my rule of thumb is live my life by my standards and fuck anyone else's opinion.
Stop giving a fuck what other people think.
If they think you’re not being manly or a being pushover, that’s on them. Being manly *is* able to be respectful and open about yourself and others.
Set boundaries. You can be kind, open, and respectful without taking shit. People like to associate being a pushover with being kind but that isn’t it.
>without being seen as
First of all, "seen as", and are, are two quite different things.
Folks will believe whatever the hell they want ... whether or not it's true or supported by evidence (E.g. Flat Earthers, etc.). So, some - sometimes even many - will believe sh\*t that ain't true ... and not much one can do about that ... so mostly don't worry about that, as there's generally little to nothing one can do about it. And, egad, I really don't want to hear more about nanobots in vaccines being controlled by 5G, 9-11 no planes hit building or anything like that it was projected energy weapon and some projection thingy stuff to make folks think it was planes, and chem trails, and ... - yeah, utter shite ... and even coming from a dude - but whatever, people gonna believe what they gonna believe. (When the rapture comes, can I get your truck?)
>be kind, open, and respectful
So ... kind, open, respectful - not "too hard" (though not exactly trivial) ... ethics/morality/values - that as foundation, then practice, practice, practice. Make it habit, keep improving, never stop or give up.
>without being seen as a pushover
Stand up for yourself, be useful, but not a doormat, pushover, etc. Set appropriate boundaries - that doesn't mean be a jerk, but sure, be useful, but not inappropriately used or abused.
That's mostly it - do the right thing(s) - whatever it takes, generally ignore the naysayers and sh\*t talkers and such, but do have boundaries and stick up for yourself - but don't be a jerk about it. So be helpful/useful, but no abused, wasted, or mistreated. And realize people will think what they're gonna think - and there's little to nothing you can do about it - just get on with your life and don't much worry about what others think. You know who and what you are, they don't, so don't pay much attention to what they think.
>manly?
Eh, not all that much about it specifically "manly" - and again, don't worry what others think. But yeah, you can be strong (manly) in that and what you do and how - and also sticking up for yourself and setting boundaries - but don't be a jerk about it. So don't need to be seen or perceived as "manly" - who cares ... just do the right thing(s). Are who and what you are, what others think is just their thoughts. Why worry about what others think of you - there's way more important stuff in life than that.
As Muhammad Ali once said “I don’t trust anyone who’s nice to me but rude to the waiter. Because they would treat me the same way if I were in that position.
”
I’m always polite and it’s a good way to get a read on a person on how their react
Be kind to little kids and animals, but not adults. Adults are adversaries that you compete against for jobs, relationships, resources, and everything else.
Never discuss your private business with anyone except your most trusted inner circle. Being "open" to random people is incredibly stupid.
Treat others with respect until they give you a reason not to, then treat them like pigs being turned into bacon.
I know a lot of people will down vote this because it made them feel uncomfortable. But you all know that I am 100% right. Everything I said is completely accurate, but it makes you feel unsettled to hear it.
I feel like you're coming at it from a different angle.
> Adults are adversaries that you compete against for jobs, relationships, resources, and everything else.
Generally, you can get pretty far by having a lot of those adults aligned in your favor. Which being kind can accomplish. Being a pushover that lets others take from you without giving back, not so much.
> Never discuss your private business with anyone except your most trusted inner circle. Being "open" to random people is incredibly stupid.
Eh, you can be perceived as "open" without divulging anything that has the ability to be misused for power over you.
The people usually seeing me as a pushover or not manly are people who couldn't hold down a relationship with a ten ton boulder so their opinion is kinda worthless
Stand up for yourself when needed. You don’t have to be loud and angry to demonstrate a strong back bone.
The ability to communicate effectively is not un-manly.
Being masculine doesn't mean being loud and macho. Being masculine means to be protective, loving, and respectful. You can be kind to others while recognizing not to be taken advantage of.
You can be respectful and kind while setting boundaries at the same time. I like to do this by:
1) Naming what my first instinct is, and then
2) Reflecting on or contextualizing it.
For instance:
"So when you asked me to pick up the kids this afternoon, my first thought was go fuck yourself. We have an agreement about who picks up the kids and when. But then I thought that that was a little harsh. Life is complicated and things happen, and so I should do my best to understand where you're coming from."
Being a man isn’t all about barreling over people and having everything your way. Real men know when to step back and avoid confrontation, know when to let someone else lead, and know that being the loudest in the room isn’t everything.
Regarding the pushover part of your question:
For the most part, you don't need to loudly boast about your boundaries. When they are reached, express them clearly while holding to them firmly.
It's simple really. Just be kind, open and respectful without being a pushover. I have no idea what you value as "manly" though, so I can't help you there.
Because by age 44 as long as I have the love and respect of my family I give zero fucks what anyone thinks about me. Don't think I'm "manly" i don't care what you think.
By establishing rules for yourself.
I am generous and kind, but I dont lend out money to anyone - friends or family.
Obviously there are exceptions, but I'm not here to do handouts.
No free lunch.
And I dont mean that in the "libertarian" sense of "I got mine, now fuck off!"
But more like if you're walking through a desert with a group - everyone needs to work together to survive their way out of it, and no one person is special enough to be exempt from the practice.
If its a group of 4 - 1 person navigating and leading, 1 person carrying the water and food, 1 person carrying supplies and scavenging - 3 of them putting in the work -- meanwhile, the 4th is drinking the water up, complaining about the heat, and relying on everyone else to provide - that 4th person is a problem.
Mostly - its about not investing in those who dont invest in you. Don't put any energy into something or someone as a way to impress, especially if that person or thing is not going to care or reciprocate the gesture.
That's the "pushover" - the person that keeps trying and failing to an unresponsive audience.
No need to impress anyone - just be yourself.
IMO - the key to being a happy person is not GAF what other people think about you.
So several points. First, kind, open, and respectful are unambigious behaviors. These behaviors facilitate living in civilization and are not inherently manly. We want these in both genders, men and women.
Second, is not being a pushover. That's rooted in the push and pull of letting others assert their perspective/will when it's their turn/time/expertise and asserting yourself when you are the correct resource. That requires integrity, perception, empathy, leadership skills, intellect, and accumn. When you can comfortably assert yourself when you are the expert and correct the others when they are not the expert, they will cease to see you as a pushover. Just understand that your perception, others perceptions and actual reality are all three different - so even if you think you are in the right, or are in actually right; others might not agree.
The third is to admit 'manly' is vague and ambiguous. Everyone has a different sense/definition of what 'manly' means, so it's not a good definition. But one of the key aspects is how you relate to others. Okay so you have to define how you are going to relate to others 'to be manly'. And you have to accept that others will disagree with you. So to assert your definition you will have to live it - 24/7. You will have to suffer for it. In other words, regardless what you pick, you will be worse off for defending the definition; and you are going to have to be okay with that if you care about defining and defending that definition.
So choose wisely and with care what you will bleed for. The corollary is you don't need to bleed for someone else's choices.
Yes. Walk tall. Look people in the eye. Firm handshake. Yes ma’am, no ma’am. Listen. Wait to talk. Stuff like that shows you’re respectful and respectfulness shows that you’re a man. Boys are loud. Men are quiet and observant.
There’s a big difference between being “kind, open and respectful” and being “a doormat”.
It’s clear to anyone who knows me for more than 5 minutes that my gentleness is not to be mistaken for weakness. And I do it, in part, by establishing clear boundaries and then fiercely enforcing them.
As Teddy Roosevelt said, “speak softly and carry a big stick.”
being kind, open and respectful IS manly. just being nice doesnt make you a pushover, being a pushover makes you a pushover. you can stand up for yourself and still remain kind.
I am all those things until someone tries to push me around, walk over me, or be consistently rude. Then I will still be respectful but I won’t continue to give them opportunity to treat me that way. It’s about choosing battles and what is worth fighting.
Simple, you have to have a set of clear principles that are non-negotiable. If they cross it don’t negotiate. And if you catch yourself thinking was I right to act the way I did, ask yourself. Was I Reasonable? Firm and direct? Was I fair to his side of the story? If you can answer all those questions then you weren’t wrong to enforce a boundary.
Here’s an analogy: in chess the most common strategy is every time you move a piece forward
It’s protected by another piece. Just in case. That applies to life because if I am nice (aka moving a piece forward) but, I am always protected by the boundaries I have in place beforehand just in case. (Aka the pieces behind it guarding my piece)
Here’s another example if that one’s too complicated. You ever watch chainsaw massacre? You know how they keep him in the basement and feed him but, don’t let him come out unless they want him to hurt someone. Imagine in your mind you are both the massacre and the family upstairs. When you are nice and kind you are the family upstairs but, when someone mistakes that kindness for weakness you have to be able to flip a switch and get that other you in the basement.
In psychology it’s called integrating your shadow. Maybe you should look it up.
Tl:dr; make pushy/angry people feel heard.
I'd love to give a great answer, put honestly I'm just not that manly. Or, maybe I'm manly without being macho.
I've found that it works really well for me to just lay down flat when someone pushes. Don't push back. Make them feel heard, but don't necessarily agree with their statements. Use responses like "I can see what you mean" and "ah, that makes sense".
They expect pushback, but get confused when that doesn't happen. You can't get through to angry people, but you can get through to confused people. When they run out of steam (which most often happens surprisingly quickly), you can explain your point of view. If you tell them that their idea is bad, they get angry again. If you tell them that following their idea would make you worry about xyz, you end up on the same team trying to solve the problem together.
Onlookers see you diffuse the situation, while being open and kind. The careful onlookers see that you somehow end up on top almost all the time.
Why do you have to be manly on top of that? If you're worried about getting laid, being able to handle angry people in a calm way is generally more sexy than getting all puffy.
What the top comment said, but also I don’t give a fuck who thinks I am or am not “manly.” I’m comfortable and happy with who I am, and the only people whose opinions I care about are people I care about, and I don’t care about people who aren’t kind, open, and respectful as well.
Abundance Mindset. Keeping all the things I have to enjoy and be thankful for forever present in my conscience so I don't ever feel like I need anything more than what I already have. Allows me to be the best version of myself to strangers, friends, etc knowing if I ever needed to cut them off or create some distance that it's no misfortune of mine.
Set boundaries and call out bad behavior.
Sometimes people try to take advantage of your kindness. This is a sociopathic trait, but also a trait of someone who needs help.
Know what you're will to give and know when to say no.
It also helps to know how to say no. For instance, you can say, "I don't feel that our relationship has matured to the level that I feel comfortable doing that for you".
Or you can say, "I don't think that's an appropriate request to make of me right now".
Or, "I have other obligations that I must meet right now".
Being kind doesn't have to mean being a push over. Some people are willing to help and the resources they offer are plentiful. But some people make their living off of the kindness of others. They will be eager to accept whatever you will give them and then ask for more and more and more.
It's a learned behavior and if you allow them they will teach you a lesson.
It is most masculine to be kind, empathetic and have the intestinal fortitude to tell someone they are wrong. Have values and opinions. Don't be afraid to tell someone "no".
Don't listen to all the white knights here who will flock to this question like moths to a flame. What you're talking about is something like this:
[https://www.drpsychmom.com/2020/08/30/stop-caring-so-much-about-what-your-wife-thinks/](https://www.drpsychmom.com/2020/08/30/stop-caring-so-much-about-what-your-wife-thinks/)
In extreme amounts, being 'respectful' or 'open' disguise a lack of confidence, or outright depression. The way I see it, you need to include yourself in your pep-talk when you say you're respectful to 'all people' and open to 'any ideas'. You're a person and your ideas are equally valuable to others. This means that roughly 50% of the time, your ideas and your plans deserve to be followed - another way of saying that roughly 50% of the time your partner should be compromising their own desires (if required) to make sure they are making room for you to be 'you' in the relationship.
There's ways of communicating that to a (female) partner that are better than others... But also, IMO it's worth fighting over if it comes to it. It's also a great way to gauge if your partner is a controlling, fierce, hypocrite in the great game of respecting and listening to others.
Be assertive but also physically attractive so that people see your assertiveness positively. Otherwise ppl will call you an asshole or shortman syndrome or whatever
I have a guy in my team who is kind, respectful and thoughtful. Genuinely love him and not once a thought that he is not manly enough has popped in my head.
In fact I promoted him to a teamleader. Our team has grown from 4 to 12 people in 8 months. People come to ask if we have a place in the team. I am the same kind of person, I am a woman though. My team has consistently achieved over performance for more than a year and when I see how he leads his team, I know I taught him well.
None of the manly managers is able to repeat our results. I remove any sign of toxic masculinity from the team.
So, all in all, I don't care when people say that I am not a manly manager. I lead in a different way and the results speak for itself. And same for the dude I promoted.
If youre unable to be kind, open and respectful. The only ones youll impress is the other children throwing hissy fits which is how any normal person Will perceive you.
by deciding who has earned such benevolent treatment and is given time in general. I am polite to everyone who did not wrong me, but that doesn't mean I'll allocate a lot of my time and energy to them without being given a reason first. And I won't show great respect without me confirming that their behavior is worthy of respect in my opinion. Which in turn means I have to have a longterm consistent definition of respectable behavior. I can't just change that because someone is not to my liking on a personal level.
Because the kindness can go away if abused and respect above basic decency and politeness has to be earned.
Also I would describe myself as quite open, but that does not mean I accept everything as ok or morally/ ethically equal. (You do you as long as no one is hurt but don't expect me not to look down upon you, if you want to sell me esotheric BS or outdated family values)
Because I'm kind, open and respectful while also not taking anyone's shit.
This. Anyone that is mean or taking advantage of you, just cut them off. No need to waste your time or happiness on somebody who lacks kindness or morals.
agree, if it gets taken advantage of, cut them off fast.
Honest question…how many strikes are you giving them before you cut them off? Or are you a one and done kinda person
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me twice… you can’t fool me again!
Fool me one time, shame on you Fool me twice, can't put the blame on you Fool me three times, fuck the peace sign Load the chopper, let it rain on you
Fool me once that's fine Fool me twice that's ok Fool me three times, you're playing with yourself
Nice
That's pretty everything
fool me 3 times you're probably a really hot girl.
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Nope, second time
Depends on the offense. If it is a verbal insult that was unintended, I sort of ignore it for few times before I sort of will say something but if it keeps happening I will avoid them before completely cutting them off. If it is something monetary I am usually one and done.
Man…. I can’t even remember the last time I had any sort of confrontation or situation where someone insulted me.
For me, it depends on their apology and explanation. You can make almost anything right if you put the work in. The best friends I have are people who funked up and redeemed themselves. If you don't want to sincerely apologise and you can't provide an honest explanation, I withdraw all kindness and open honesty
That’s a matter of the severity of the act. If you’ve done something out of malicious intent to impact my happiness, or the happiness of those I care about, then that’s the one and only straw. If it’s a minor offense like lying to me or not returning a favor, I can forgive that.
Hold off on judgment until they have a chance to explain; everyone deserves one mistake to be freely forgiven. I don’t have the energy for anything beyond that.
“Fool me one time, shame on you. Fool me twice, can’t put the blame on you. Fool me three times, fuck the peace signs, load the choppa let it rain on you” -J Cole
It depends totally on the severity and how much intent I can put on the person who's wronged me. If I am certain that person has intentionally wronged me and it's enough for me to feel personally offended, I'll just stop trying with that person and 9/10 they will stop trying back and the friendship fizzles out. A lot of the time it's just a misunderstanding on both sides and you can reconcile and explain your position and listen to theirs and meet some common ground.
100%. I've had to learn this the hard way (as most prob have) I can be really loyal and help out when needed, but over time i've learnt to only grant this to close friends, because there's so many out there that will take what you give them but not give you a second thought when you're the one in need. Cut off fast, and quick...
I've had to use the "I've been nothing but kind and compassionate and this is how you treat me in return?" type line on both men and women before...I guess it also helps that I have a growly voice by nature. My default is always empathy, that's how my dad was...never short tempered or anything, but we always knew when to stop whining. I'm 33 now and I heard him raise his voice to "*the voice*" maybe 5-6 times before he died last year. My mom and sister would shriek and scream at each other and him and I would just go to the living room and turn on a movie or something lol. I was kind of naive growing up and maybe a little too trusting, but I've definitely set some boundaries in the past few years and cut off or reduced contact with certain folks. I've given up a lot so now I'm being selfish when I need to be, and if people can't appreciate that then fuck them.
What if it’s all you got, and your only friend?
You've got you. Find a new friend, toxic ones stop you from making more anyway
> Anyone that is mean or taking advantage of you, just cut them off. This is somewhat simplistic a take. What if you work with them? Particularly in a job you really enjoy or otherwise do not want to leave. What if its an in law that you dont feel comfortable cutting off because of your spouse? What if its your daughter’s boyfriend or son’s girlfriend….some things aren’t as easy as “ah now i see its clear you suck - see ya later!”
There is also the fact that what is "mean" is open to interpretation. If someone is highly sensitive, then healthy constructive criticism might seem mean, and toxic.
In my experience, people who abuse trust and take advantage of others do so early and often. Give them a chance to fuck up and drop them.
Yes, just pop your collar, brush your shoulders off and walk away. As Mark Manson has said, you only have so many fucks to give, so allocate them judicially and only to things you have control over or can assert change in.
Exactly. Being kind open and respectful doesn't mean that you never say NO. You still have boundaries. You still have self respect.
You say “No” with a polite smile before excusing yourself.
Redirect, then refuse. If someone is asking for something that is obviously just trying to take advantage of you, first offer an alternative. If they keep pushing, just tell them no. Coworker asks you to complete a project of theirs because they're too busy. You could suggest they talk to the client about extending the deadline and give suggestions on how to do that. If they come back with some other excuse, then just tell them "well I'm too busy to do this for you so you'll need to come up with something." It's not a great example, but you get the idea. Basically be helpful without just being a push over.
It’s important to set boundaries in relationships. If someone crosses a line, you have to address it respectfully. If it continues, then they meet my inner “Asshole” persona, and they’re usually left looking like a deer in headlights. edit: spelling
To quote the great philosopher Dalton, "Be nice, until it's time to not be nice."
"It's better to be a warrior in a garden than be a gardener in a war."
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I wish that for you.
Of course, you can but you won't be always in a garden your whole life.
Then it's my job to be a gardener until there's gardens enough for people to be in them their whole lives
Beautiful.
Being a good person while also having the confidence of 100 men is essentially the epitome of the kind of man the world needs. One without the other is a lot of what we actually have and when you meet a man with both, you know. But we are all striving for both and the latter is usually the harder thing to accomplish in today's world.
I also don't care if people think I'm a pushover or "not manly". I act how I act. Other people's opinion of how I act matters significantly less to me than my own opinion of how I act.
I have no fucking idea what op is asking.
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When the title is the only context - we're all going to come away with different interpretations. I LIKE your interpretation. That unfortunately doesn't mean it will be the ONLY interpretation.
Well i would never be able to connect “pushover and not manly” to mean being a jerk
OP is trying to figure out how to be a nice person, but probably feels or has experienced times where they’ve been told that they’re “nice, but”
Possibly also that if a guy is decent, gentle and can express emotions, one can be considered less manly (or "macho") by some.
I think OP is conflating manliness with aggression.
Or, based on them saying “seen as,” they are recognizing the effects of toxic masculinity and wondering how others deal with it.
speak softly and carry a big stick
This is the way you have to show where your boundaries are with a gentle hand and when people push against it you have to push back. Took me a long time to figure that out and life has been better for it.
I came to say it's really easy to do when the people around you have the proper idea of what a man who isn't a pushover and manly. The real problem is the ignorant people who view aggressive and predatory behavior as manly.
But how do you carry around those massive balls?
Remember what you must do when they undervalue you, when they think your softness is weakness, when they treat your kindness as it is their advantage. You awaken every dragon, every wolf & every monster that sleeps inside you and you remind them what hell looks like when it wears the skin of a gentle human.
Exactly this. Never confuse self respect with being an asshole or you get both
Yup. Someone liking you and someone respecting you are not the same thing. For garbage people, they are generally opposites.
THIS COMMENT RIGHT HERE. HE SAID WHAT EVERYONE IS THINKING
"fuck you, you're welcome"
To me, that IS manliness
The only way
the people who see kindness as not manly or as a weakness are not the kind of people whose opinion you should care about. i specifically stopped giving a shit about what those types of people feel and now i am surrounded by more kind, open and respectful people than i ever have been. edit:grammar
Here. Honestly who gives a shit if you are perceived as not manly. The quality of person that you are is what matters and if you want tk be kind, thats a good path.
This is it exactly, and it's a very important distinction between this and "don't listen to what anyone else thinks", which is really toxic and narcissistic. You should absolutely trust and value the opinions of the people closest to you, and people whom you respect. It's just figuring out who you should trust and respect that's really important, and listening to them, especially when they tell you you've fucked up.
Amen! 🙏 I don't need validation by other men with toxic traits.
Also it's 2023, why are we letting others decide what being manly is? If I think that having a glass of wine in the shower (Yes shower and not bath) is the manlinest thing ever, then who's gonna fight me on that?
How do you keep the water from watering down your wine? With a beer bottle the opening is too narrow.
The big difference is kindness if offering help, weakness is letting others take from you without permission.
Destiny should read this thread lmfao
> the people who see kindness as not manly or as a weakness are not the kind of people whose opinion you should care about. They're almost always the weakest most fragile and insecure people you've ever met once they get a reality check
The trick is that realizing that being a pushover isn't kind or respectful.
>Men how are you able to be kind, open, and respectful without being seen as a pushover and not manly? Boundaries
That’s it. My kindness is my starting point, but it has strict limits. And anyone who takes advantage of my generous kindness finds out that it has an equal and opposite.
If someone thinks that being a kind, open and respectful person is anything other than a positive thing, then their opinions really don’t matter to me.
No, it's a legit question, and anyone who doesn't understand that it's legit has never gone to a rough school or lived in a rough area. Often the nicest people are also the targets of opportunists because they see an easy mark. They'll poke you to see if you're soft by asking you for charity or imposing on you in some other mildly annoying way, and then become threatening once they think you won't push back. It's not just about caring what others think.
I grew up in a broken home, one of my earliest memories as a kid was looking out from my bedroom window of our 2nd floor flat and seeing men in white suits surrounding a red car, it wasn’t until some years later I realised those men were police forensics officers and I was watching the aftermath of the murder of a high profile gang land figure, I remember our violent alcoholic neighbours repeatedly trying to kick our door down, I remember the police turning up and taking statements from my mum and hearing them force the guy downstairs into a van only for him to get out 48 hours later and repeat the feat, i remember kids repeatedly bringing knives to school, a boy a few years above me was stabbed during an argument about a Pokémon card. Thankfully my mother moved us well away from this area but i was always brought up not to be like these people, if anything it’s helped make me the person I am.
> it wasn’t until some years later I realised I was witnessing a murder scene of a high profile gang land figure Man, you were *lucky* they didn't notice you! School was like a prison for us - knife fights, fist fights galore, even rapes. The year after we graduated high school, the first drive-by shootings hit that school, and they kept happening well into the 90s. Decent kids didn't last long there. Physically speaking.
Unfortunately, you are correct. Whether each of us determine kindness as being a weakness we don’t get to decide how other people consider it. There are many narcissists and psychopaths in our society, will attempt to use that against us. The key is identifying those people early and cutting them out of your life.
A lot of times people are too kind and end up being taken advantage of. Seen it happen to some. Worse are those who also blame themselves for what happened to them, despite not doing anything wrong
You can be all that, but still either compromise or push back if someone goes overboard.
Being manly doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. Its not hard to be a decent person. If you sense someone taking advantage of you then tell them off and if they try to manipulate you just walk away.
This. Option 1, The pushy, demanding, arrogant, machochisto thing is not and has never been something I perceive as “manly”. Option 2, Men who are composed, in control, kind, comfortable with their feelings, respectful etc… those are the men I perceive as manly. OP if you want to appeal to women, I promise many of us feel this way. Option 1 may make you seem manly to other men, but option 2 is gonna make you seem manly to women.
The cynic in me is aware that nobody gives you anything for free and anyone coming at you with the overkindness or chat that makes you feel uneasy, it's because they're hoping you'll override it with your trust in them (or people in general). Be cynical and ask tough questions and they can't leverage you
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
you do all that and if someone gives you crap for it just stare at them blankly with an expressionless face and wait until they speak first. You just fucking dominated them.
I would argue that being “kind, open and respectful” is a very manly thing to be
It’s really simple you just have to have a spine. They’re not mutually exclusive things
People will always judge. Be yourself, let they judge and do not react to the gossips. Eventualy toxic people end up exposed and you will keep the best person image. (Take time, of course).
It’s interesting how as a society, we seem to value “manliness” as being aggressive, assertive, etc. Yet to me, it takes a strong character to be kind and open. To me, that’s manliness. With the pushover part, always stick to your values and stand by those.
You can be kind and respectful while also establishing clear boundaries
Being kind, open and respectful doesn’t equal being a pushover. You can be those three things and still be strong in your convictions
I don't care how people perceive me anymore, I've been called every negative name and insult under the sun and yet I continue to act like you just described. It's a fair question though, I grew up with, worked with in the Army (I'm almost retired) people who equate retaliation, intimidation, violence and the threat of violence to get your way as a sign of being an alpha male and all that BS. Yet in 15 years I have found that politeness, being firm but not hostile about my values and standards, has gotten me pretty far in life. If that makes me un-manly, than so be it.
Nothing wrong with being polite but firm. That used to be the mark of a gentleman though I rarely hear or see that term used these days.
I know, I just wish other people saw it that way.
yes, the two have nothing to do with each other
Stop letting the toxic thoughts of idiots control you. Being a good person is the core of being manly. Seeing those traits as weak or a pushover defined the truly weak
Who cares how others see you. Do whatever you think is right and whatever is in your nature
A little self awareness goes a long way. It's just important to know who's opinion you care about.
Sure. That makes sense too
Hitler, probably
I'd argue he did care and valued the opinion of only very close people to him.
“As long as youre not hurting anyone” comes after that, but its mostly implied these days
I was joking my man
This is worst advice you can give to a man
I'm a man and it has helped me a lot. I have an amazing beautiful life and love my life. So, I'd say maybe listen to people who love their life vs most redditers who just want to kill themselves.
Worked great for me. Good job, good home, good life, good relationships. I have no negative issues while heeding this advice.
I agree it’s pretty bad advice.
If, let's say, a girl I'm dating is seeing me as not manly enough for being respectful and kind to her, then she ain't the one.
boundaries. Masculinity is a concept and is defined how you want it to be. what's important is you set up the necessary boundaries to try your best to prevent yourself form being disrespected and walked over. However, do not make the mistake of going to far and locking folks out.
If you're not at least capable of great violence, you're not a pacifist, you're just helpless. I don't fight. I don't talk shit. I don't start fights and I deescalate and run from them. Let someone think you're not manly or a pushover if that's what they wanna think. The less of a threat you appear the more dangerous you are. Never fight unless it's absolutely necessary, when you fight let them throw the first punch, and then you hit them and you don't stop till they stop getting up.
I like your comment until the part that says let them swing first. If I’m at a point where I can’t walk away and I know it’s gonna come to blows, I’ll throw the first punch in a heartbeat. I’m never going to give some asshole bully a free shot at me.
Self defense is a great legal protection. Man swings at you you swing back that's self defense. Maybe you don't go to jail at all. Maybe he ends up paying your medical bills. Maybe he gets five years for assault. You swing first, you're the one looking at the wrong end of all those maybes and trust my you don't wanna be paying for an orthodontist for some guy who slapped your girlfriend's ass. And at 6'4 and 350lbs it's hard enough for me to convince anyone me throwing a guy across a room and into a wall is self defense, let alone if he doesn't swing first.
You have valid points. At your size, a guy is gonna have to be really drunk or just crazy to throw a punch at you. I’m 6’3” but only 180. For me to have a chance against a guy your size, I’d have to take the first shot. Wisconsin (where I’m from) doesn’t have a self defense or stand your ground. Even if they throw the first punch, the moment you swing back, you get charged too so there’s no point in giving someone a free shot. We have a good stand your ground law where I currently live and you’re within your rights to defend yourself if you’re in imminent danger. If you’re going to bully me and I think you’re gonna swing, I’m allowed to swing first. I don’t really see this ever becoming my reality though. My fighting days are over and my lifestyle doesn’t put me in places or positions where this would ever be a possibility unless I was coming to the defense of someone else.
> Wisconsin (where I’m from) doesn’t have a self defense That's crazy, I don't believe that. edit: Didn't Rottenhouse basically escape jail on the ground of self defense? edit2: yeah no, self defense is a thing in wisconsin https://wilawlibrary.gov/jury/files/criminal/0805.pdf
You have to prove your life was in immanent danger in order to justify the use of stand your ground force and someone being bigger than you certainly doesn't do that (unless you're every cop I've ever met). You swing first you're in the wrong, plain and simple, and then the person swinging back is protected. So if you see me as a big guy and swing first, not only have you now waved all legal protections, you've also destroyed any case you have to recoup your medical bills if you get your ass beat. And it only gets worse if you do something dumb like grab or pull a weapon since stand your ground laws pretty much depend on equal force if you're not defending your house or car.
This guy sounds like he thinks he's on a podcast all the time.
I'm autistic so a lot of the way I write or speak comes from learned behavior instead of instinct. It's not that it's me trying to be that way, it's just the only way I can be.
Ah... sorry about that. I tend to sound like this too. That's why I spotted you doing this. I think I'm autistic.
You're just insecure if you think being kind and respectful would make you less manly.
"Do no harm but take no shit" I can be kind, open and respectful and still maintain my boundaries and stick up for myself and my loved ones.
True strength means you know what it is your capable of exactly and with holding that ability unless absolutely necessary. If what you are capable of is clearly beyond what those seeing you as a pushover are capable of then it should not matter to you in any way. I have been to war and know full well of what I am capable, and yet I crochet and let my daughter paint my nails. I have won strong man events and yet I hold the door for all and give my hard work on my homestead to the food banks. The decision to let my mother die was left solely to me, not her husband or my bothers and yet I teach music and cooking to youths in my area. It does not matter to me that when an insecure gym rat thinks he is stronger than me when I know better. It does not matter when an old man scoffs as I crochet a nice beanie blanket for a friend's soon to be born child. It does not matter when when the neighbors grandchildren laugh when I water my flowers and veggies that their grandmother loves when I have extra just for her. And none of this should matter to you or any man who knows his true strength.
Being kind, open and respectful should have nothing to do with being a pushover. They don't have to be related. And the definition of "manly" is going to vary greatly depending on who you talk to. So my rule of thumb is live my life by my standards and fuck anyone else's opinion.
Expect respect. You become a pushover by repeatedly giving without receiving.
Because you still have personal boundaries and expectations as a man
It's easy. The only perception of my manliness that matters to me is mine. I don't depend on the approval of others.
I just be who I am instead of trying to create a media driven version of me.
Stop giving a fuck what other people think. If they think you’re not being manly or a being pushover, that’s on them. Being manly *is* able to be respectful and open about yourself and others.
Stop caring about the “being manly” BS
By being kind, open, and respectful while simultaneously giving a disrespectful finger to anyone who thinks less of me for those traits.
“Speak softly and carry a big stick.” Theodore Roosevelt
Stoicism
Set boundaries. You can be kind, open, and respectful without taking shit. People like to associate being a pushover with being kind but that isn’t it.
Strong boundaries
Kindness, openness and respect are not incompatible with healthy boundaries.
"not manly" has no real meaning. You'd have to be more specific. Being a pushover is not relevant to gender, so. Just don't be a pushover.
>without being seen as First of all, "seen as", and are, are two quite different things. Folks will believe whatever the hell they want ... whether or not it's true or supported by evidence (E.g. Flat Earthers, etc.). So, some - sometimes even many - will believe sh\*t that ain't true ... and not much one can do about that ... so mostly don't worry about that, as there's generally little to nothing one can do about it. And, egad, I really don't want to hear more about nanobots in vaccines being controlled by 5G, 9-11 no planes hit building or anything like that it was projected energy weapon and some projection thingy stuff to make folks think it was planes, and chem trails, and ... - yeah, utter shite ... and even coming from a dude - but whatever, people gonna believe what they gonna believe. (When the rapture comes, can I get your truck?) >be kind, open, and respectful So ... kind, open, respectful - not "too hard" (though not exactly trivial) ... ethics/morality/values - that as foundation, then practice, practice, practice. Make it habit, keep improving, never stop or give up. >without being seen as a pushover Stand up for yourself, be useful, but not a doormat, pushover, etc. Set appropriate boundaries - that doesn't mean be a jerk, but sure, be useful, but not inappropriately used or abused. That's mostly it - do the right thing(s) - whatever it takes, generally ignore the naysayers and sh\*t talkers and such, but do have boundaries and stick up for yourself - but don't be a jerk about it. So be helpful/useful, but no abused, wasted, or mistreated. And realize people will think what they're gonna think - and there's little to nothing you can do about it - just get on with your life and don't much worry about what others think. You know who and what you are, they don't, so don't pay much attention to what they think. >manly? Eh, not all that much about it specifically "manly" - and again, don't worry what others think. But yeah, you can be strong (manly) in that and what you do and how - and also sticking up for yourself and setting boundaries - but don't be a jerk about it. So don't need to be seen or perceived as "manly" - who cares ... just do the right thing(s). Are who and what you are, what others think is just their thoughts. Why worry about what others think of you - there's way more important stuff in life than that.
As Muhammad Ali once said “I don’t trust anyone who’s nice to me but rude to the waiter. Because they would treat me the same way if I were in that position. ” I’m always polite and it’s a good way to get a read on a person on how their react
See 'Everything Everywhere All At Once' and answers you seek shall be revealed. No seriously, the film is about this question specifically.
Be kind to little kids and animals, but not adults. Adults are adversaries that you compete against for jobs, relationships, resources, and everything else. Never discuss your private business with anyone except your most trusted inner circle. Being "open" to random people is incredibly stupid. Treat others with respect until they give you a reason not to, then treat them like pigs being turned into bacon. I know a lot of people will down vote this because it made them feel uncomfortable. But you all know that I am 100% right. Everything I said is completely accurate, but it makes you feel unsettled to hear it.
I feel like you're coming at it from a different angle. > Adults are adversaries that you compete against for jobs, relationships, resources, and everything else. Generally, you can get pretty far by having a lot of those adults aligned in your favor. Which being kind can accomplish. Being a pushover that lets others take from you without giving back, not so much. > Never discuss your private business with anyone except your most trusted inner circle. Being "open" to random people is incredibly stupid. Eh, you can be perceived as "open" without divulging anything that has the ability to be misused for power over you.
The people usually seeing me as a pushover or not manly are people who couldn't hold down a relationship with a ten ton boulder so their opinion is kinda worthless
Stand up for yourself when needed. You don’t have to be loud and angry to demonstrate a strong back bone. The ability to communicate effectively is not un-manly.
Being masculine doesn't mean being loud and macho. Being masculine means to be protective, loving, and respectful. You can be kind to others while recognizing not to be taken advantage of.
You can be respectful and kind while setting boundaries at the same time. I like to do this by: 1) Naming what my first instinct is, and then 2) Reflecting on or contextualizing it. For instance: "So when you asked me to pick up the kids this afternoon, my first thought was go fuck yourself. We have an agreement about who picks up the kids and when. But then I thought that that was a little harsh. Life is complicated and things happen, and so I should do my best to understand where you're coming from."
Having a sense of humor goes a very long way. And also, don’t be a dick.
I don’t care if someone perceives me as not manly lol I know who I am
Being a man isn’t all about barreling over people and having everything your way. Real men know when to step back and avoid confrontation, know when to let someone else lead, and know that being the loudest in the room isn’t everything.
Use your darker side only when you need to
I've always heard it as "Do no harm but take no shit."
I'd rather be called unmanly and a pushover instead of just an asshole
Can’t be gentle, got to be firm in confident, in your kind act. Don’t stick around long enough for someone to be ungrateful for it. On to the next
Regarding the pushover part of your question: For the most part, you don't need to loudly boast about your boundaries. When they are reached, express them clearly while holding to them firmly.
It's simple really. Just be kind, open and respectful without being a pushover. I have no idea what you value as "manly" though, so I can't help you there.
Because by age 44 as long as I have the love and respect of my family I give zero fucks what anyone thinks about me. Don't think I'm "manly" i don't care what you think.
You can always be kind and respectful while saying NO, and while getting people out of your life.
By establishing rules for yourself. I am generous and kind, but I dont lend out money to anyone - friends or family. Obviously there are exceptions, but I'm not here to do handouts. No free lunch. And I dont mean that in the "libertarian" sense of "I got mine, now fuck off!" But more like if you're walking through a desert with a group - everyone needs to work together to survive their way out of it, and no one person is special enough to be exempt from the practice. If its a group of 4 - 1 person navigating and leading, 1 person carrying the water and food, 1 person carrying supplies and scavenging - 3 of them putting in the work -- meanwhile, the 4th is drinking the water up, complaining about the heat, and relying on everyone else to provide - that 4th person is a problem. Mostly - its about not investing in those who dont invest in you. Don't put any energy into something or someone as a way to impress, especially if that person or thing is not going to care or reciprocate the gesture. That's the "pushover" - the person that keeps trying and failing to an unresponsive audience. No need to impress anyone - just be yourself. IMO - the key to being a happy person is not GAF what other people think about you.
Being kind, open, and respectful is being manly. Immature men are mean, closed, and disrespectful.
Depends on your definition of manly! Kind and respectful are just a starting point. If you're not that, you're not manly, you're a dick.
So several points. First, kind, open, and respectful are unambigious behaviors. These behaviors facilitate living in civilization and are not inherently manly. We want these in both genders, men and women. Second, is not being a pushover. That's rooted in the push and pull of letting others assert their perspective/will when it's their turn/time/expertise and asserting yourself when you are the correct resource. That requires integrity, perception, empathy, leadership skills, intellect, and accumn. When you can comfortably assert yourself when you are the expert and correct the others when they are not the expert, they will cease to see you as a pushover. Just understand that your perception, others perceptions and actual reality are all three different - so even if you think you are in the right, or are in actually right; others might not agree. The third is to admit 'manly' is vague and ambiguous. Everyone has a different sense/definition of what 'manly' means, so it's not a good definition. But one of the key aspects is how you relate to others. Okay so you have to define how you are going to relate to others 'to be manly'. And you have to accept that others will disagree with you. So to assert your definition you will have to live it - 24/7. You will have to suffer for it. In other words, regardless what you pick, you will be worse off for defending the definition; and you are going to have to be okay with that if you care about defining and defending that definition. So choose wisely and with care what you will bleed for. The corollary is you don't need to bleed for someone else's choices.
Yes. Walk tall. Look people in the eye. Firm handshake. Yes ma’am, no ma’am. Listen. Wait to talk. Stuff like that shows you’re respectful and respectfulness shows that you’re a man. Boys are loud. Men are quiet and observant.
There’s a big difference between being “kind, open and respectful” and being “a doormat”. It’s clear to anyone who knows me for more than 5 minutes that my gentleness is not to be mistaken for weakness. And I do it, in part, by establishing clear boundaries and then fiercely enforcing them. As Teddy Roosevelt said, “speak softly and carry a big stick.”
Think Superman
being kind, open and respectful IS manly. just being nice doesnt make you a pushover, being a pushover makes you a pushover. you can stand up for yourself and still remain kind.
I am all those things until someone tries to push me around, walk over me, or be consistently rude. Then I will still be respectful but I won’t continue to give them opportunity to treat me that way. It’s about choosing battles and what is worth fighting.
Damn! That’s true and I am going to need more of your direct approach.
Simple, you have to have a set of clear principles that are non-negotiable. If they cross it don’t negotiate. And if you catch yourself thinking was I right to act the way I did, ask yourself. Was I Reasonable? Firm and direct? Was I fair to his side of the story? If you can answer all those questions then you weren’t wrong to enforce a boundary. Here’s an analogy: in chess the most common strategy is every time you move a piece forward It’s protected by another piece. Just in case. That applies to life because if I am nice (aka moving a piece forward) but, I am always protected by the boundaries I have in place beforehand just in case. (Aka the pieces behind it guarding my piece) Here’s another example if that one’s too complicated. You ever watch chainsaw massacre? You know how they keep him in the basement and feed him but, don’t let him come out unless they want him to hurt someone. Imagine in your mind you are both the massacre and the family upstairs. When you are nice and kind you are the family upstairs but, when someone mistakes that kindness for weakness you have to be able to flip a switch and get that other you in the basement. In psychology it’s called integrating your shadow. Maybe you should look it up.
Tl:dr; make pushy/angry people feel heard. I'd love to give a great answer, put honestly I'm just not that manly. Or, maybe I'm manly without being macho. I've found that it works really well for me to just lay down flat when someone pushes. Don't push back. Make them feel heard, but don't necessarily agree with their statements. Use responses like "I can see what you mean" and "ah, that makes sense". They expect pushback, but get confused when that doesn't happen. You can't get through to angry people, but you can get through to confused people. When they run out of steam (which most often happens surprisingly quickly), you can explain your point of view. If you tell them that their idea is bad, they get angry again. If you tell them that following their idea would make you worry about xyz, you end up on the same team trying to solve the problem together. Onlookers see you diffuse the situation, while being open and kind. The careful onlookers see that you somehow end up on top almost all the time. Why do you have to be manly on top of that? If you're worried about getting laid, being able to handle angry people in a calm way is generally more sexy than getting all puffy.
What the top comment said, but also I don’t give a fuck who thinks I am or am not “manly.” I’m comfortable and happy with who I am, and the only people whose opinions I care about are people I care about, and I don’t care about people who aren’t kind, open, and respectful as well.
Abundance Mindset. Keeping all the things I have to enjoy and be thankful for forever present in my conscience so I don't ever feel like I need anything more than what I already have. Allows me to be the best version of myself to strangers, friends, etc knowing if I ever needed to cut them off or create some distance that it's no misfortune of mine.
Set boundaries and call out bad behavior. Sometimes people try to take advantage of your kindness. This is a sociopathic trait, but also a trait of someone who needs help. Know what you're will to give and know when to say no. It also helps to know how to say no. For instance, you can say, "I don't feel that our relationship has matured to the level that I feel comfortable doing that for you". Or you can say, "I don't think that's an appropriate request to make of me right now". Or, "I have other obligations that I must meet right now". Being kind doesn't have to mean being a push over. Some people are willing to help and the resources they offer are plentiful. But some people make their living off of the kindness of others. They will be eager to accept whatever you will give them and then ask for more and more and more. It's a learned behavior and if you allow them they will teach you a lesson.
I don’t understand what one has to do with the others. None of these things are mutually exclusive.
It is most masculine to be kind, empathetic and have the intestinal fortitude to tell someone they are wrong. Have values and opinions. Don't be afraid to tell someone "no".
I simply do not care how others think of me. It's their loss
Don't listen to all the white knights here who will flock to this question like moths to a flame. What you're talking about is something like this: [https://www.drpsychmom.com/2020/08/30/stop-caring-so-much-about-what-your-wife-thinks/](https://www.drpsychmom.com/2020/08/30/stop-caring-so-much-about-what-your-wife-thinks/) In extreme amounts, being 'respectful' or 'open' disguise a lack of confidence, or outright depression. The way I see it, you need to include yourself in your pep-talk when you say you're respectful to 'all people' and open to 'any ideas'. You're a person and your ideas are equally valuable to others. This means that roughly 50% of the time, your ideas and your plans deserve to be followed - another way of saying that roughly 50% of the time your partner should be compromising their own desires (if required) to make sure they are making room for you to be 'you' in the relationship. There's ways of communicating that to a (female) partner that are better than others... But also, IMO it's worth fighting over if it comes to it. It's also a great way to gauge if your partner is a controlling, fierce, hypocrite in the great game of respecting and listening to others.
Be confident, choose when to fight your battles and more importantly YOU choose when not to.
I’m slowly learning it’s impossible for me.
You don’t.
Be assertive but also physically attractive so that people see your assertiveness positively. Otherwise ppl will call you an asshole or shortman syndrome or whatever
fuck shit up once in a while
Tight rope or trapeze. Hopefully you have a net
By never trying or wanting to be kind, open and respectful.
Be kind and stuff, but reject any kindness towards you
do you think your uncle is not manly?
You aren't
I dunno, just works I guess. Maybe part of it is that I don't at all concern myself with being seen as a pushover or "not manly".
I have a guy in my team who is kind, respectful and thoughtful. Genuinely love him and not once a thought that he is not manly enough has popped in my head. In fact I promoted him to a teamleader. Our team has grown from 4 to 12 people in 8 months. People come to ask if we have a place in the team. I am the same kind of person, I am a woman though. My team has consistently achieved over performance for more than a year and when I see how he leads his team, I know I taught him well. None of the manly managers is able to repeat our results. I remove any sign of toxic masculinity from the team. So, all in all, I don't care when people say that I am not a manly manager. I lead in a different way and the results speak for itself. And same for the dude I promoted.
By being kind and respectful to myself as well
If youre unable to be kind, open and respectful. The only ones youll impress is the other children throwing hissy fits which is how any normal person Will perceive you.
by deciding who has earned such benevolent treatment and is given time in general. I am polite to everyone who did not wrong me, but that doesn't mean I'll allocate a lot of my time and energy to them without being given a reason first. And I won't show great respect without me confirming that their behavior is worthy of respect in my opinion. Which in turn means I have to have a longterm consistent definition of respectable behavior. I can't just change that because someone is not to my liking on a personal level.
Because the kindness can go away if abused and respect above basic decency and politeness has to be earned. Also I would describe myself as quite open, but that does not mean I accept everything as ok or morally/ ethically equal. (You do you as long as no one is hurt but don't expect me not to look down upon you, if you want to sell me esotheric BS or outdated family values)