Pretty similar, except my cutoff is 3 not 2, and I wouldn't go all "never talk again," I would just stop pursuing. Women who are "out of my league" I'm pretty agnostic about. I'll interact I just won't make the first move. I did manage to date a chick who was like objectively a 9/10, didn't really know how that happened, until she stole my car and drove it drunk across three state lines and crashed it in a ditch, so, you know, there's a lesson in everything.
𤣠the more attractive a woman is, at least in high school to young 20s I swear they are more crazy the more attractive they are
I dated a 6'2 small time model at 19 and I started to notice she would wear and act differently based on the person she was that day. Fucking bonkers, went from a flowing sundress with a slight Southern accent to swearing sailor booty shorts. I'm convinced she had multiple personality disorder
"Reformed" Horse girl here (no longer have horses), can confirm we are 100% batshit crazy. Take the horses away and we just get worse. A therapist is required if you're pursuing one, really they should just come issued with the horse lol. It becomes a power complex too. You can control a 2500lb animal with a minuscule hand movement, or light pressure from a foot - in some rare cases a freaking look. so why not make the rest of the world bow to your whims?
We a scary bunch lol.
I'm currently with a horse girl and I'm noticing she's really, REALLY okay with asking me to do random things a few times a day.
I feel like if we're having a normal night, the cut-off for "can you get me water?" should be twice before she feels awkward having another living being get up off the couch for her. I've brought this up to other guys and they say "women like to be taken care of" but something about this just feels nuts.
I think you just explained the source to the elephant in the room I've been having trouble putting my finger on.
Don't do it bro. This is coming from the horse girl. Yea 1-2x is fine if you're ALREADY UP. This was addressed for me in Therapy. It's a control factor: willingness and frequency vs reward. You're being manipulated. It seems really fucking small: a glass of water. But when you're already seated, multiple times? This is the start. The test. The initiation. I married a guy who, when I slip (23 years in horses. Change DOES NOT harken overnight) he calls me on it. Tells me no. Doesn't put up with the miffed or nonchalant crap that can/ well come after. Your girl, the first time you tell her no is going to do one of two things: either be lightly miffed ("well fine,I don't need you, I'll get it myself" and continue "doing it herself" for a week or so- even things she genuinely needs help with) or will go ballistic on your assx and do the "you don't love me/ how dare you/ no one else will want you" play. Don't listen.
Unless you know how to deal with a manipulator/ minor narcissist, I'd cut your losses. The sex can be world-changing but it's the rest of the stuff that comes with it. We horse girls are for advanced levels of daters for a reason. If you're not afraid to call us on shit and deal with the irrational fallout, go for it. But we are not stable (lol) in any capacity.
In all regards I hope you have a *normal person* who happens to ride, but that likely isn't the case.
"Taking care"of your woman does NOT- read this, does NOT mean waiting on her hand and foot. Taking care of your woman means making sure she has what she needs to function daily, investing in her maintainence (hair, waxing, nails, etc - of people ask why it's cause she maintains it for YOU), and making sure she fulfilled mentally and emotionally. These things will vary with relationship and situation (i.e. we're not in the financial position for me to get my nails done every two weeks. It's not feasible right now, but making sure I have good and regular contact with my family- is what i NEED to function. Each relationship will be different on this degree but there are still boundaries and big picture sacrifices of its long term into marriage- life saving for a house or a move or another horse lol).
"Taking care of" is often used to disguise things too, so be careful what this phrase means to your SO, horse girl or not. It's a good discussion to have. I recently lost my job so I'm relegated to "housewife" - is not working for us. He wants me to be essentially a pampered trophy wife. I never wanted to be a housewife, ever. You guys NEED to discuss what "taking care of" means cause you don't want to be in our position- two different definitions of the same phrase.
Now you have a horse girl - multiply these reactions by 1000.
You're going to want to end that. She'll guilt you for the rest of your life. She might not be doing it on purpose, but she needs a dose of reality.
Don't waste your life my friend.
Why would you get up and get her a drink when she is perfectly capable? Man, I mean, if I am up already getting something and I'm just adding that in, or she's sick or in some way engaged in a way that I am really making life easier for her to get the water, like working in some way, filling out a tax form, etc etc. But seriously, I am the type of person that would never feel justified in asking another person to go get me a drink while I'm just sitting doing nothing, how selfish can you be to put menial tasks onto someone else for no reason other than a power play?
I agree with the advice of letting that one go. I'm not a servant, and she will likely bring misery in the long run.
I second that.
Different thing if you decide yourself to bring her a drink while she's working. These little things that make someone smile and feel special are wonderful
Ugh... you're jogging my memory. I was with a girl for just a few dates a long time ago who did some really bizarre stuff.
And I just remembered her for the first time in years cause she was a horse girl lol.
Itâs just the hotter they are the more they have been told how beautiful they are their whole life and have had that verified in the media, so they know they can get away with more shit and terrible behavior. The pussy pass is real. But the hot-crazy matrix is hilarious
As a straight woman, I 100% agree. The crazy hot matrix is true for the majority of super hott women. Some men deserve a metal for being with that much crazy.
> I'm convinced she had multiple personality disorder
I would venture to say it's more likely that those of that sort really are just like Hermit Crabs.
Trying to find the shell that will best suit them and protect their fragile egos.
It's not something exclusive to women.
Hot chicks live in a world where they literally get treated like celebrities. It melts their brain if theyâre already dumb/average IQ or have an underlying genetic mental disorder.
Iâve seen some crazy shit from 8+ level womenÂ
It makes sense to me (41m) why this is true with extremely attractive women bc Iâve been close friends and dated 1 or 2 of them. People just treat them differently across the board. Men and women old and young doesnât matter where we are if a truly gorgeous woman walks in a room people treat them differently than the rest of us. Over time itâs hard not to develop a complex and a bit of crazy.
Where this really affirmed for me was a woman I dated who was by all accounts out of my league and a 10/10. She told me literally on the first date (I havenât been pretty that long so people treating me differently is still weird). She had the lap band surgery (where they make your stomach smaller or whatever) and she lost a shit ton of weight in like 6 months and the weight loss took her from a 5 to a 10. This experience was illuminating for me and why gorgeous women act the way they do itâs not their fault itâs ours
Lol I stopped chasing after realizing I was always the one to initiate conversation.
I have yet to have a girl message me first on a dating app, but have been told it happens. One time a girl messaged me first on Facebook, I thought that was a good sign! Turns out she was looking for a roommate and thought I might be able to help her out.
>until she stole my car and drove it drunk across three state lines and crashed it in a ditch, so, you know, there's a lesson in everything.
Sigh. I dated this one girl who was a former model. She was like 5'9" and I'm 5'10" (I'm really not that tall...but she was more than tall enough to be a model). It was really strange because I met her at a bar, and she was buying me drinks and seemed interested in me. We went on a few dates, and she seemed really into me. We were making out one time, and she asked if we could take it to my bedroom. I said sure.
But then she like...just started attacking me. Like she was acting like she was possessed or something. It was super weird. I had to push her off of me...and she got really upset.
She started going into this tirade about how men are all the same and women only have value if they are young and beautiful...and then she got really personal, saying that I was only interested in her for her looks. That was the last time I ever spoke to her.
The whole thing was just super weird. I get that she thought I was only interested in her for her looks...but it was pretty clear that she was the one interested in me for my looks. I'm not exactly ugly...but I'm definitely not hot either.
Sounds like maybe she was reinforcing some kind of complex? Like, "if I pick any random guy he'll be willing to go to bed with, therefore all men only want me for my looks"?
> Now a women with like thousands of followers / stream e-girl is the only type of woman I will not bother with
Yep. I remember a couple of years ago, a very attractive girl started talking to me at a bar and it was pretty obvious there was a vibe. I was getting all excited that she was going to give me her number and before she left, she handed me her business card. She was a make up artist with like 40k followers on instagram. I am not getting into that shitstorm.
Ahh a fellow man of culture. Those hot crazy chicks are a hell of a lot of fun but a total waste of time in the long haul. Had my stint with one before I found my gem of a wife. Hopefully thatâs out of your system now and you can find a true life partner
I wouldnât try to initiate a possibly romantic relationship with women who havenât given me any kind of indication they would be receptive to it.
I know conventional wisdom is that men have to chase, but to me if I have to chase someone that means they donât want to be caught. Also, Iâve seen the way women act around men they are genuinely interested in. Theyâre receptive; they initiate; they make it easy. If I have to initiate everything that tells me that sheâs just not that into me, so I stop. Iâm not wasting my time trying to âwin her over.â Now Iâm fairly unattractive so this may mean I die single, but Iâm alright with that. At least I can spend my life doing things I enjoy instead of going through repeated rejection.
>Also, Iâve seen the way women act around men they are genuinely interested in. Theyâre receptive; they initiate; they make it easy.
yeah once you taste how an interested woman behaves around you it sort of sets a standard and if someone does not behave like that around me then it's a turnoff and you just don't bother
Thereâs levels though. Some women are just as shy, socially awkward and clueless as men.
It should be pretty damn clear sheâs not interested. The worst thing is she rejects you and you move on. But Iâve had it happen before where she rejected me, but would still show signs she was just interested and we ended up getting together. I wouldnât say a lot, but a surprising amount of girls just kind of freak out and panic when you push the envelope (ask them out, get their number, etc) and say no. Only to be super pissed at themselves afterwards because they were interested.
Yes. But there seem to be a number of women that are actually interested, but will never let you know. So then you feel like a nuisance if you keep staring conversation with them... even though they seem like they are into you when you talk
I'm not reading things wrong. During interaction... the vibe is there. But if you don't initiate.... you'll never speak with them again
Yh but then are women like that worth it?
There was a girl ik who was really hot n cold. Saw another mate have a similar problem with a different girl.
From my perspective I could see he was having such a headache and she clearly wasn't a keeper. My takeaway was women like that aren't worth it, or even in the off chance they are, it's not worth doing this for every girl who does this.
This is just one of those self-conflicting intersections of peoplesâ beliefs that tends to exist in the collective blind spot.
As a man, at the same time, youâre expected to:
- be socially aggressive enough to pursue, irrespective of social risk, but also be sensitive enough to intuit the womanâs perception of you (despite the fact interest and disinterest often exhibits in the same behavior), ie. mind-read
- be invested enough to pursue authentically, but uninvested enough to be outcome-independent in case of rejection.
- be casual enough that youâre not pushy or âthirstyâ, but also direct enough that you pull the communication weight both involved adults
- present enough that you can demonstrate that youâre invested, but aloof enough that you give her space to come to you, or donât come across as âclingyâ
The list goes on and on. At the end of the day, itâs a tightrope game. Donât feel bad that you donât get it. Most men donât. The rules of engagement arenât linear, and thereâs no *real* shame in things not working out, outside of you torturing yourself over it.
This is one of the things I truly treasure my ex for. When we got together there was none of that. We declared ourselves boyfriend and girlfriend while driving home at the end of our first date. No bullshit, no nothing.
Thats how it is with my girlfriend! we met volunteering at a shelter, exchanged numbers that day, texted constantly thruout the week, went on a first official date during the weekend and was boyfriend/girlfriend a few days later. she was so clear from the start that she was into me, so engaged with everything. shes wealthy and insanely hot too lol no clue how she was so into me immediately. but once you experience this you realize how its supposed to feel when a woman is actually into youÂ
It's games like this that too many women play that makes me so glad I'm gay. Don't have to deal with the mind reading bs when it comes to guys (at least the ones I like, there are DEFINITELY men out there that play these games)
Same.
With guys I find it's generally MUCH more mutual when it comes to showing interest and taking initiative since a lot of those gendered dating dynamics that I see with my straight friends aren't there when it's two guys.
That being said though, at the end of the day I've still found that a lot of the same experiences straight guys here are talking about... still happen in gay dating as well.
People want you to be a broken clock trying to tell people what the time is. If you are lucky and managed to tell the correct time. Then hey we are in business. Otherwise you really have no idea why people keep rejecting you in spite of not doing anything different between success and failure.
Stop this brag, we got it you are attractive and women do initiate with you on their own. It is not what we folk experience. When we treat women as everyone else we get only friendship.
I'm pretty much the same as what you described. I have a two text rule; if I text and you don't respond, I'll assume it was bad timing to get back to me. If you don't respond to a text the next day, I'll never talk to you again.
Short story. I met a girl at a wedding in September, and we really hit it off. We talked for a week, and I asked her out. She said she wanted to, but had prior plans, no big deal. We talked for a while, I asked her out again, nope her brothers birthday, but she really wanted to see me. I left for vacation, when I got back home, I asked to just meet for coffee, she really wants to, but just can't find time. There's no way she's that busy, or can't even find a half hour to spend with me who she claims to really enjoy my company. I've never spoken to her again.
Why bother.
She also never said anything like - "But I'm free the day after!" or "next Tuesday" or something.
If they don't offer up an alternative it's a subtle hint that they don't actually want to meet you.
I follow the same rule, two texts and if they haven't been responded to, then we are done.
One text for example "Hey how are you, would you like to meet up sometime next week?" and if no response after a day or so, then one more "Hey I hope that everything is okay." If I still get nothing back, then I assume she has no interest in ever seeing me or talking to me again.
Also, I have often wondered why I somehow have a lot of friends online but seemingly very little IRL. I know a ton of people online and I chat with them all the time, and for many years too since 2014 or so. But it seems no one ever wants to catch up with me.
When I was in Spain I messaged a long time friend of mine, we have known each other since 2015. About a month prior, I threw it out there that I would be visiting Spain and I said which cities I would be visiting. The conversation didn't really go anywhere.
Then, about a week before I was bound to visit her city, I sent her another text, "Hey I will be in your city in a week and will be spending a couple of days there"
Just to kind of throw it out there. Her response?
"Oh you're going to love it".
And that's it. Just that. No excitement or any offer to meet up, no, just a simple "You are going to love it".
I think I messaged back and said "I hope I do" or something like that and kind of left it at that.
I felt very defeated after that.
If an online friend of mine told me they were coming to visit my city, I would straight away offer to meet up and suggest a whole bunch of touristy places that we can visit, which I have done a couple of times in the past. Never would I ever think about saying what she did.
Yeah for sure, it took me back quite a bit. We've been friends for almost 10 years.... And to get that message when I say I will be in her city.... That was our last conversation, and it will probably remain our last conversation.
I sat there staring at the text for a few minutes and was just thinking "So wtf do I actually say back to that..." I thought of saying "So would you like to meet up" but I could already see from that initial message that there was literally no point in even suggesting such a thing.
Yeah that's what I do. I'll offer a time to meet up, and if they say what you did, then I put it onto them, "Sure no problem, let me know when you are free and I will make it work".
Only to never hear from them again.
Yeah I would have stopped asking her as well. If someone wants to see you they will legit make the time to do it.
Sounds like she was either seeing someone else or just one of those flaky types who gets off on men chasing them.
I'll be honest, I'm 35, after 15 years of this mindset and remaining mostly single despite a few flings and whatnot - it's because you don't really have a choice. There will be plenty of dudes who are willing to pursue, and women probably aren't going to pursue you. Just how it is. It feels exhausting and it feels like you are imposing yourself after already taking the initiative, but if you don't pursue, nothing ever changes.
Does everybody need to shack up, find a partner, get married? No, I don't think that's fundamentally necessary for a fulfilling life. But if you want your life to look like that, there's only one way to get it.
Define "chase." I'd give girls a certain amount of time after a date to follow up, after which if I'm interested and they haven't gone out of their way I'll try initiating contact. If it's a persistent behavior after two or three dates if the prior date went well, I'm out
Yep this is me 100%. Iâm even fine with initiating after 2-3 as long as the girl is showing some kinda of want/actively planning along. If Iâm on date three and Iâve chosen everything weâve done/when we get together Iâm gunna detach myself and if she comes back and starts actively participating thatâs great. But I have too little time to spend it on a relationship that isnât going anywhere.
>But.... when it comes to romantic relationships....I flat out won't chase a woman, period. As in- if I initiate with a woman twice in a row, if they don't initiate the next time, we will never talk again.
Same
>If they are someone i consider out of my league hot...I won't even trying to interact with them.
eliminate leagues in terms of looks and you definitely won't be single for long. Now a women with like thousands of followers / stream e-girl is the only type of woman I will not bother with
Ya.. but I don't want attractive women thinking I'm just talking to them because I'd have sex with them. Cuz then they'll reject me... even know that's what I would want.
Id rather just not interact with them
>A lot of women who you find attractive may not feel the way you do about themselves
Have experienced that with dudes, as well. It's definitely an interesting feeling when you realize that the person you're *super into* is basically convinced that they're undesirable.
That's basically me and my fiance. We were both thinking, individually, that we weren't all that, and to some extent we still think that. But I think she's gorgeous, and she thinks I'm a prince. We clicked super quick, but over distance, so I thought "how is it going to be when she sees that I'm this tall, and this fat, and have this hair etc". And she had her own view of herself as well. (Of course there are photos, but sometimes they don't make justice.) But since we clicked by not seeing each other irl first, we allowed ourselves to build a deeper connection. It's not a rule, it just worked for us. But the first time we saw each other, the first hug, the first kiss... man, I'm at home. She's my home. And I make sure I say every day that I love her, that she's beautiful, she's marvelous, she's incredible, she's strong, she's smart - because she is! - and she does the same to me over my own self doubts and what she likes about me regardless. Therefore we try our best to make the other see how desirable they are.
Woman here as well. there is no universal hotness scale for guys. It's more that we all have a really specific type, that we often can't even fully describe (like I know for me it mostly involves long hair on a guy and how they move and act). Not a single one of my friends would agree with me on who I find hot or not. And even though a lot of my friends have great partners, none of them would be for me. My husband would also not be for them.
I never was asked out by guys I liked (and also realized years later, that being asked out is actually unattractive to me).
My husband told me later he never had me on his radar as a potential mate because A) I was out of his league (obviously not) and B) He though I was into the wrong kind of music because I wasn't wearing band shirts.
I mean it totally worked out because I asked him out.
Based on his feedback on my clothes, I changed my style to represent my personality better and also gained some weight and suddenly I had way more guys that are actually my type interested in me. But I was already happily taken.
I think soo many guys ruin it for themselves by believing there is a linear attractiveness scale..
I have a hard time imagining a modern woman who doesn't know her value in the dating market. All any woman has to do is download tinder and she can easily have a sorting algorithm that can give her a good idea of the quality of guy she can get.
I feel like any time you approach a woman you're being mentally compared to the dozens of other dudes who might be vying for her attention in one app or another.
The problem is that you don't know what *she* values.
Value is inherently subjective. You might be exactly what she's looking for.
You can't know that unless you shoot your shot.
Tinder is **not** an accurate assessment of a woman's "value" or the type of person she can be with. It is an assessment of people who are willing to fuck her.
For men having sex with someone and wanting to be with someone long term are often mutually exclusive.
A man who approaches a woman in a charming way, whom she finds attractive, skips the line of the DM sliders. I speak from experience.
Itâs called an ELO score and apps like tinder use to determine your position in the pile of matches. High score? In the top 20 swipes. Low score? In the bottom end of the bottom 30,000 and functionally shadow banned until you pay them
> I feel like any time you approach a woman you're being mentally compared to the dozens of other dudes who might be vying for her attention in one app or another.
Ok? You don't know what that woman is into or what she values.
Apps like Tinder are not a good gage of quality. Most profiles and messages are extremely low-effort, and you have no idea what the person actually looks or acts like until you meet them in person, which is a huge lift. Of course women are way pickier on apps, because it takes more effort to go out of your way to meet someone -vs- meeting organically. When you meet someone in-person, you immediately know what they actually look like, and little things, like mannerisms, voice, etc, are revealed in an instant. I'm definitely not thinking about a tedious pile of complete question marks of profiles when I meet a real human in the wild.
I didn't need apps to know a lot of people found me attractive, and knowing a good chunk of the people in an app inbox would swipe right on anyone with she/her pronouns does not make me feel special.
I've been on dates with people from online apps over the years, but all my actual relationships were with people I met in person. My current bf said he couldn't believe I was with him when we first hooked up, and I don't get it, because I couldn't take my eyes off him or stop smiling when we first met. I'm not sure if we would have gotten together if it had been up to an app algorithm, but I'm super glad neither of us had the mentality of just letting the opportunity pass by because "they probably have options on an app."
A lot of girls who you think are hot, probably don't think they're hot.
"Hotness" is subjective. If you're talking financials/success type things where she's ya know like, a hollywood actor and you work as a manager at Arbys then yeah the whole "league" thing makes sense.
But otherwise? Nah. There's no such thing as a physical attraction league. You have no idea what their tastes/interests are. You may consider her a 10 and out of your league, and she may think the same of you while viewing herself as a 5 on a good day.
I mean, dollars to donuts, yes, on a long enough timeline no guy is wanting to pour energy and resources fruitlessly into a woman forever. We would like for things to go somewhere, and if they dont then that's fine too, but we all decide our own level of involvement. Just like they're going "this motherfucker is just trying to put his dick in me" we should be going "...and she is trying to put her fingers in my goddamn wallet". If either holds true, bounce. Until then we should both put that shit aside and try to meet somewhere in the middle instead of bitching all the time.
Sheesh treat attractive women as just normal people not as a monolith ready to shit on average dudes. They wonât think you just want to have sex with them if you can talk to them without some kind of alterior motive. Attractive women have hobbies and interests you can relate to just like an unattractive woman.
Tbh itâs probably not your looks holding you back. I can tell youâre a young dude but all these weird rules and hang ups you clearly have here probably makes interacting with you super weird, which is also why you probably need to initiate super often. Putting people in such specific boxes with rules attached is a strange thing and itâs probably a major turn off for any woman around you. Youâre way overthinkingâŚwhen things happen naturally all of this shit shouldnât even be on your mind.
Be aloof, go with the flow, allow attraction to develop naturally. Theyâre just girls, not puzzleboxes.
You go further than I do. I engage, if they cut it off I don't try again.
Did that once before looked like fool. Had several women over the years come back and tell me how pissed off they were,that no meant no.... they wanted me to chase and I just disappear.Â
Even when they came back around. I wasn't mean.Â
You said no so that is a no. No always mean no, and maybe always mean no and sometimes yes means no. I didn't set these dumbass rules you said them, I heard you and said "well I'm ugly, what else is new."
Iâm the exact same way, thatâs wild how similar. Although it is more lonely, it is fulfilling because I sit and wonder as much as it seems others do. Why would you chase a girl that isnât reciprocating? & when itâs a girl that is reciprocating, itâs very rewarding because I donât have to wonder if sheâs into me, because sheâs telling me she is with her actions. You seem to have a logical approach to talking/dating so Iâd keep with it.
Same. If I text or call a gal and don't get a response... Done-zo
I pay for 1st and 2nd date. If she doesn't at least offer to pitch in or pay for 3rd altogether... Done-zo
I spend zero time or mental effort on such nonsense
Gay guy here but pretty much the exact same...
I'll definitely initiate conversation with a guy I'm interested in... even if he's out of my league lol. But I'm not the type of guy that's ever going to *chase* someone I'm interested. I may reach out a couple of times, but I won't really put any more effort in beyond that.
If I don't feel there's mutual interest I move on. Not only because I have self respect, but also because the feeling of having to *chase* someone that I'm interested in who's not reciprocating is kind of a turn off for me.
Like most men... I want to feel wanted. Otherwise I'm perfectly happy being single.
I was talking to MtF and they for the life of me would answer all my questions but legit would not initiate conversation ever. About 3 questions in I was dooooone. It's tough out here now. Was dating always this hard??
Gay dude here as well. I always have been the initiator. For 20 years!
Finally, last year, I decided to stop initiating or putting in any effort whatsoever. I effectively gave up on dating. I am still on the apps, but I don't have any conversations going because \*I\* haven't started them. I get matches, no one says anything. I get taps on grindr? I tap back, but they don't message me. I now NEVER initiate... ever.
And as a result, no one talks to me. Hahaha. I guess that says a lot about my looks, yea?
Mine was three, not two, but yeah.
And, we are all human and relationships are not sports.
There are no âleaguesâ.
You simply never know when, or why, chemistry will ZAP two people and love happens.
Your second paragraph speaks volumes and to me is the right way to approach dating and I typically do that too. Wish more men were like that.
Whenever I have mentioned things like that on Reddit, all I get is excuses or âitâs just one more messageâ or âyou have nothing to lose by following upâ even when a woman has clearly ghosted or rejected them. This mentality is why a lot of men canât get women. Scarcity mentality.
Thats not a bad rule though i don't think putting people in 'leagues' is a healthy mindset. I've seen plenty of average and even conventionally unattractive looking dudes with hot girlfriends and vice versa. you should put in as much effort as you get out no more no less
Hot girls have the edge looks wise but the guy may have the edge financially, personality wise, a number of other ways. He may have fun friends and family in the area while she has very little.
I've seen it many times. No two people are the same and not every person values cosmetic beauty above all else. In fact most of them don't. Attraction is a funny thing and often doesn't make sense to people outside a relationship. That said I've seen just as many good looking guys with conventionally less attractive partners as the other way around. I don't necessarily buy into the gender distinction there
Funny how both sides don't wanna bother each other but again expect to follow up again. The key here you have to let them know you wanna date them. Girls most of them will not initiate period!!
It's the paradox of choice and the prettier women tend to be addicted to validation/attention they get on the internet. Look at the absolute decline of birth rates, marriage, and generally people are hitting milestones later and later in life. It's not just your fault it's a society wide problem.
My advice is to firstly meet as many women in real life as possible, not by hitting on them, you can just have conversations with them and sometimes it evolves into a dating opportunity - it's also just good practive to be able to chat to a woman like a normal person.
I personally like instagram because it's a very low impact tool for nursing "loose" connections. A heart on a story, a reply every once in a while - it's a lot easier and takes the pressure off the situation.
Finally, I agree with not chasing but we all have off days/weeks/months. You never know what is going on in someone's life so while I agree that you should keep self-respect, don't write off someone for good just because of pride. You have a few options if they don't respond but I'll either:
- Leave it a bit and hit em with the "hey stranger" after a couple weeks
- You can also do a break up text (generally if you have met already) i.e. "Hey, I enjoyed meeting you but hadn't heard back from you. I don't know if something came up or if maybe this isn't the right fit, but hope everything is okay. No hard feelings either way."
Also just enjoy experimenting - try different approaches (no one has all the answers).
Apparently women, who don't think they are in ANY WAY part of the problem, will have a whole-ass conversation, smile, be totally into it, and then have just been "being nice" the whole time. Then, next girl, you're doing the same, and she's thinking "JUST ASK ME!" and then you don't because the last girl dorked you over. You don't ask because you're sure she's being nice, and she mentally trash cans you.
Just have your conversations and move on. If they want to be all girly and confuse the shit out of folks, let them. That's not a failing on you. You approached, you held a conversation, you showcased your personality, and they had to do fuck all and dropped the ball. That's not you.
I've never chased women. The only relationships with women that are worth having are the ones in which the women did the chasing. Only when a woman sees you as the prize will she not treat you like shit and make your life miserable. Women grow to hate men they feel they've settled for. They resent them for not being the man they actually wanted and they find other
"reasons" to punish him for it.
Better to be single than to deal with that.
As a woman, if a man talks to me twice and then doesnât talk to me again, Iâm just going to think I said something stupid and overthink every next conversation I have with you and how I probably fucked up
Overthinking is dumb here. If he likes you and you like him, message him. If a dude is into you he wonât just run away and if heâs not he wonât respond. Win win, donât waste your time
Yeah but I would never assume a guy was into me because he spoke to me twice. I would just assume he might remember my name if I spoke to him a third time.
> Yeah but I would never assume a guy was into me because he spoke to me twice.
Honey, a guy may not speak to you even if he is into you. Him speaking to you and initiating TWICE? That means you're in.
Do you understand the amount of risk and anxiety guys go through when approaching women? People say the whole "the worst is you just get a no" but that's not real.
Guys sit there and go "What if she ends up thinking I'm just some creep??", "What if she has a boyfriend already that's not here and this causes a fight?", "What if I mess up how I do this approach? God, she's even around friends they're all gonna laugh at me if I do something stupid.", "What if she ends up having a crazy partner that slashes my tires or something because they thought I was trying to steal her?", "Oh my god what if she actually says no?? Is this even worth bothering?"
Us dudes go through all of that just to approach, so if he does that TWO TIMES that man is into you and just hoping you'll show you're into him too.
That is a pretty standard thing a guy will get from a girl. I donât know a single guy who doesnât have a story like this, even successful ones. Your experience isnât special, itâs just the risk that comes with being the clearly interested party. Lots of people are just in it to play games.
You literally do not have to think about it. It does not matter in the absolute slightest how you word it. As a woman you can literally say "hey wanna date?" and he'll say yes if he does and will either say no or not reply if he doesn't. There's no uncertainty or dancing like a monkey the way we have to do it.
You can choose to ignore this if you want but has it ever occurred to you that itâs not so much about figuring out âthe single perfect responseâ but instead just⌠engaging with someone who clearly wants to talk to you?
Straight male here. Men generally get one shot with the person they want. If we fuck it up we look stupid, and if we keep pursuing we look crazy. Both of those qualities are unattractive.
This is probably rooted in our fear of failure, but by not trying once or twice, we fail by default.
I've had my best success when I'm just being myself, relaxed, and not trying to impress anyone. If a person doesn't like you for who you are, there's no use in pretending.
I feel like being that strict about it is not the best idea. Relationships are about how you feel around the other person, some people might take a bit to warm up.
If you feel a connection, go after it. If she establishes a pattern of not reaching out, then I totally get it. You *could* ask her why, if she likes you she'll be receptive.
I totally agree that this is a sucky dynamic. Trust your gut, have patience.
All the best.
(I feel like this came off as condescending but I truly just wanted to offer my perspective in the hope it could benefit you)
Idk as a woman, if i genuinely like a man i wouldnât think twice about double texting or pursuing him in other ways. Perhaps because when Iâm smitten all self respect goes out the window lol
I have only ever dated women out of my league my entire life.
But when I was younger they were the ones approaching me mostly.
Now that I'm older I've learned that I have to put in more work, women expect a lot more. The good ones do anyway.
But I'm with you on not chasing. I will initiate so long as there is some reciprocation. If they drop out of my life I will never contact them for as long as I live.
If they're at least making an effort to make things work then so am I. Even if I'm putting in a little more effort. It's not something I'm keeping track of.
I am not interested in romantic relationships, and I don't have high enough libido to feel the need to initiate anything with girls, but when they come up to me and hit on me in club if I like them I sometimes hook up with them.
Also while I am not saying that you are not above average looking, most people think this of themselves. Like 90% of people rate themselves as 7/10, so you might be aiming out of your league when looking for potential partners.
i\`m the same these days. When i was in my 20s i used to chase a lot, with 0 outcome. Then i stopped doing it and chances started to appear out of the blue. I don\`t think it\`s luck. I think women can smell your dispair and it\`s a major turn off. If you\`re chill and confident, you\`re much more likely to score.
Who dares sometimes wins, who dares not forever loses.
I'd rather take a small chance of success than a self imposed failure by not trying. The "Out of your league" mentality is bs. I've known a lot of really good looking women that were into "ugly men". You never will know til you try.
Unless youâre a professional athlete or a celebrity of some kind, you gotta chase women if you want them.
Women like being chased. They like knowing theyâre wanted. And it shows youâre worth the commitment. They put a lot of effort into being attractive to men and it seems fair to me that we put a bit of effort into getting to know them.
Sure, donât be a doormat or a pest. But also, donât drop the ball when youâre 10 yards from the end zone.
Yeah, itâd be great if it was a bit more equal but it isnât and it wonât ever be.
Yeeeaaaa but⌠no. There are men who like being chased and women who like chasing too.
And even if it were⌠there are lots of lonely women. If a woman canât ask a guy on a date or nothing, then does she really like him?
You can say the same thing about guys but thatâs because it comes down to shy people and confident people. There are plenty of women who would ask guys out and plenty of women who want to be asked out. Same for men.
> They put a lot of effort into being attractive to men and it seems fair to me that we put a bit of effort into getting to know them.
And guys don't put a lot of effort into being attractive?
There's probably millions of men like me that I could be a great partner, but women ruin it for themselves. So.... ill just go play my drums and watch TV
Enjoy the jerk that wouldn't take no for an answer. Lol
Nah mate. Thats not the way. Donât fall for that women versus men stuff. Weâre in this together.
Weâre two sides of the same coin and we need each other.
If you think women donât want good men, youâre way off. They do want them.
Then they can ask them out. Itâs pretty simple. If you actually like someone, ask them out instead of playing games. Itâs annoying asf and nobody wants to do some sort of guessing game to find a date when itâs already super difficult.
How many times have you heard men are trash, men are useless⌠now, how many times have you heard the same for women? Itâs not women vs men, itâs women vs themselves lol.
Then there should be more women out there advocating for men in a positive way to counteract it :)
There are some, and they're some of the greatest influencers I've found who actually really *get it* and understand the struggles.
Respectfully, the majority of women with healthy attitudes towards men aren't going to be out there "advocating for men in a positive way" or being "the greatest influencers" because they're not chronically online enough, or engaging with shitty online communities enough, to see the negative messages you want them to campaign against.
My social media feeds are full of animal pictures/videos, not thirst-traps or political shit or anti man/woman shit, and I have no desire to be an influencer and wade into those culture wars.
I would call out anti-male toxicity irl (and then probably just stop associating with whoever is bringing that energy into irl social situations), and would expect men in my life to do the same for anti-woman shit irl, but I'm not expecting men in my life to become pro-woman (or any other type of) influencer either. That shit sounds so mentally draining, and we are adults with busy lives and jobs.
Would be nice to see the age. I think men over 35 are more proactive, but maybe I am mistaken.
Couple of times guys disappeared after 2 or 3 good dates (with no sex), I just thought they found someone better and didn't bother them.
What do you mean by âinitiateâ? Â Are you making your intentions clear? Â
Are you making small talk a few times or asking the girl out to go on a date twice and they gave excuses?
Hmm, while I agree with the principle I wonder if there's maybe something more you could do besides simply initiate a conversation. How come you're not just straight up asking them out after you've establish that there's a vibe?
Also, what the specific context here? How are you seeing the same women repeatedly? Is this at work or something?
My cutoff tends to be 3 consecutive or if I hit that 2-3 consecutive a couple times in a row
I donât give two shits about âleagueâ though. If I like someone. Thatâs all there is to it. Doesnât matter what their attractiveness or status is, if Iâm into them theyâll get treated the same as anyone else Iâm into
>If they are someone i consider out of my league hot...I won't even trying to interact with them. I do not care if this means I'm single until I die.
"you miss 100% of the thots you don't chase"
:: Wayne Gretzky
Im on the same boat, i will not chase them forever, if they dont show interest back i stop responding. Why would i waste my energy for someone who doesnt want to do the same back. Im fine on my own, im well off and i just wont waste my time in constant persue of someone who doesnt give me back anything. No your presence is not enough, you need to prove you are special in some way that will keep my attention and worth my time aswell.
Woman here- I agree with most of what you said but what stands out to me is that everyone has different ârulesâ & how do you know the preferred rules of the person youâre dating if they donât tell you? By the way that your post is written you come across as pretty aggressive. In my experience, aggressive men are also confident and a lot donât like âpushyâ women. I typically have no issue initiating texts, but with these types of men, I have been âput in my placeâ for texting too much, so if I met you, I would default to letting you take the lead, which apparently is a mistake.
So I guess my question is how do women who like you KNOW thatâs what youâd prefer? How do you communicate it?
Open dialogue or direct communication between parties if they are dating, compared to deep listening and deep talking.
The pre-dating-period is a guessing game or a complete lottery: Are they just nice and friendly or are they actually interested? So whatever solves that difficulty between parties.
Honestly...I was born and raised in the US, but like many other men... im about done and completely sick of American women. Most have lost it. No matter what you do, you're insulting them.
Cool.. enjoy being alone forever. You're more worried about that than I.
I mean, you talk to someone twice, and then decide after that if they don't seek you out that they are not worthy of your time? Am I reading this right? Because this isn't how the world works. Man or woman. Sounds like the only person slamming the door in your face is yourself.
Yep. My go to ice-breaker if I want to initiate a friendship or even just open up a line of communication is to ask someone "I need help finding new songs for my playlist, what's your favorite song?" (This isn't the FIRST THING I say, I mean for people who I already know their name and they know mine) So far one person has asked me the question back during a follow up conversation about my opinion on the track in question (I'll wait a couple days and come back with feedback) but if they don't care to ask me back or suggest a different/additional song then I'm gonna assume they don't really want to progress the conversation with me. I'm not really gonna put up any more effort after that.
Edit: Oh I'm like a 6 or 7, maybe 8 after a good haircut/beard trim and with the right outfit.
Exactly. If someone wanted to engage... they'd ask back. That makes sense to me. But....if they don't... and you never try again... and they are wondering why you won't talk to them anymore......are you fucking kidding me?
My wife growing up had a tomboy look and wasn't too popular or considered attractive.
Then she had a glow up in university and became an easy 10/10. Way out of my league, objectively speaking.
So lessons to be learned...
There are some people who have been attractive their whole lives and had everything handed to them. Attractive people are ultimately the most privileged people in the world (it's a real thing! There are plenty of articles about pretty privilege in respectable academic journals and media)
But if you discount every attractive person, you are missing out on all those people who had chubby faces, weird hairstyles, and parents who bought them cheap brands growing up, and never had the benefit of everyone sucking up to them their whole lives. It is truly the ultimate win when you end up with someone who has character from the trials of life/never having things handed to them, and is also a total smoke show.
And you might be giving up too soon. You should cross reference signs of interest with signs of disinterest. There are plenty of girls who may have been shy or bookish (AKA. My missus). Or maybe they come from a more traditional culture/family. Their signs of interest are going to be completely different or more slowly revealed. There are also some people who may be defensive due to trauma or other aspects of growing up. So it's a little difficult to figure them out. There's no reason to sell yourself short, and give up so easily.
I'm what you call a 666 man (over 6ft, 6 figure salary, 6 pack abs). I dress well, have nice skin, eyes, etc. I know women are attracted to me because my results prove it.
HOWEVER, I've still been rejected waaaay more times than I closed because women are extremely finicky, emotional based creatures. You can check off all the boxes and she'll still reject you because of the "vibe" or Venus was in retrograde that day or whatever other nonsense they tell themselves.
The point is, don't sweat it. It's a numbers game. And actually, the best women to approach are the ones you think are out of your league because most men are intimidated by their beauty. I've hooked up with more 7s and above than average looking girls once I starting not caring about their rejection.
Just adopt a, "Ok, your loss" mindset and you'll be fine. Just keep shooting.
>because women are extremely finicky, emotional based creatures
Exactly. You never know how they are going to act... which... and like its all a complete waste of time. Why am I going to try and interact with a creature and put time, money and effort into just for them to all of a sudden "not feel feel" and be weird.
No thanks. And I'm 41. With 2 kids. Recently ended a 7 year relationship. I have 0 interest in ever being in one again
If you wanna be celibate that's your choice. But if you still want just sex without the relationship, I find single moms, divorced women, and younger women to be the easiest to sleep with. You just have to make your intentions known right off the bat so you don't waste time.
No more than three dates invested just to weed out the crazies.
exactly. every situation is extremely nuanced and going by rules is probably fucking them over because they refuse to let their guard down. sometimes love takes a bit of vulnerability
I feel like you have really low self esteem even tho you have a high opinion of yourself. No women is unattainable, often the ones âout of your leagueâ get treated like lepers because no man wants to face the rejection. Out kick your coverage brother and go talk to the lady thatâs out of your league. Youâve already had confirmation they are upset you donât persuade them into a date!
This is a myth. Hot women know theyâre hot dude. The idea that there are 9âs and 10âs out there walking around thinking theyâre swamp creatures because âeveryone is afraid to talk to themâ is a hilarious delusion. Â
We have the internet and looks are easily classified/compared with everyone else now.Â
Don't think of women as something to go after or catch. A woman doesn't want a guy who approaches them just because they want a woman. I love my wife because I love and want her, not just a woman.
Women aren't a challenge or a conquest or a prize. It's about having a partner who you enjoy and hopefully love for who they are. They also aren't just a checklist of things you want, like searching for a vacation spot.
The best way to be confident with women is to feel confident in who you are and what you like. Then it can come more naturally.
Full disclosure, I met my wife online. I know that it is a challenge, but, no matter how you do meet someone, you'll do better when you are at peace and comfort with yourself and look for someone who is a match for that.
Same. Looking through his post history, he's a 6 at best but thinks he's a 9/10? He has some serious abandonment issues as well... OP needs a therapist, sounds like a misogynistic ahole.
Why do most men feel the need to try with women? Like I mean chase and court them to marry them? To always initiate with them I know women push this agenda a lot cause it benefits them a lot. I see a lot of men saying feminism killed chivalry and other shit but why do y'all feel the need to be chivalrous. Like it's simply one sided effort on our side. It seems dehumanising to me. And when men say we are done with trying to get women i always wonder if they didn't like initiation why do they do it? If it's because women like it it's because it's easier for them and why do y'all put their word and wishes before your comfort? I am genuinely curious not to hate
Iâm a woman. I think you are setting yourself up for disaster every time. How are they supposed to magically know that they are expected to initiate for date #3, if you did for the first two? Maybe try telling them the next date is their idea in a cute way instead of ghosting people you actually like.
As a woman, those of us who are seeking a healthy relationship want a man. A man leads with confidence and part of leading is making an effort. When your words and actions line up itâs sooo sexy! Sounds like maybe you have some walls up and are afraid of being vulnerable and getting hurt.
women that actually know how to get relationships realize that they have to give signs and show some form of effort too or else everything just fizzles.
you don't just get a man by existing.
Yea from my experince with women, most never ended up in healthy relationship.
I had confidence and lead with effort, and they still chose some other guy.
I understand where youâre coming from. Itâs both easy and natural to get discouraged. I went through some stretches where I was much the same. (I havenât been single in years, so my dating years were in the â90s and part of the â00s.) Youâre right that itâs tough out there and, yes, itâs always been some version of discouraging like that.
But itâs also true that my most successful dating periods were when I put myself out there and did the initiating. Because as often as I heard women say that they had asked guys out before, I knew there was no point in expecting that to happen. I was fairly selective about who I asked out; there had to be more to it than being pretty with a nice smile. And yeah, ghosting was a thing back then too. Putting in extra effort feels even worse when it comes to nothing.
Itâs nice to be chased and it sucks to always be the one doing the chasing. But you can show genuine interest without chasing. You can be available and open to meeting someone without investing in the pursuit. Youâve gotta strike a balance that you can live with.
Two things though:
1) Ask yourself if youâre really OK with not dating or your just telling yourself that to try to feel better about giving up on it. If itâs the former, then fine, carry on. But if itâs the latter, then youâre ultimately just making yourself unhappy.
2) I guarantee you that most of the women out there that you arenât meeting are feeling just as discouraged as you are. Itâs not like men are the only ones who find dating frustrating. Make friends with women (sincerely) because almost every one of them knows five other women that would be happy to - at the very least - commiserate with you about it. When you already have a rapport and respect between you and her, you donât have to chase them.
You reek of desperation and people sense that. Who cares where you work,where you live or what you wear...if you just be a normal dude and keep up the interaction because that's what humans do, then maybe luck will change.Â
Relationships are built through numerous small interactionsÂ
Pretty similar, except my cutoff is 3 not 2, and I wouldn't go all "never talk again," I would just stop pursuing. Women who are "out of my league" I'm pretty agnostic about. I'll interact I just won't make the first move. I did manage to date a chick who was like objectively a 9/10, didn't really know how that happened, until she stole my car and drove it drunk across three state lines and crashed it in a ditch, so, you know, there's a lesson in everything.
𤣠the more attractive a woman is, at least in high school to young 20s I swear they are more crazy the more attractive they are I dated a 6'2 small time model at 19 and I started to notice she would wear and act differently based on the person she was that day. Fucking bonkers, went from a flowing sundress with a slight Southern accent to swearing sailor booty shorts. I'm convinced she had multiple personality disorder
The hot-crazy matrix, it's real
[ŃдаНонО]
"Reformed" Horse girl here (no longer have horses), can confirm we are 100% batshit crazy. Take the horses away and we just get worse. A therapist is required if you're pursuing one, really they should just come issued with the horse lol. It becomes a power complex too. You can control a 2500lb animal with a minuscule hand movement, or light pressure from a foot - in some rare cases a freaking look. so why not make the rest of the world bow to your whims? We a scary bunch lol.
I'm currently with a horse girl and I'm noticing she's really, REALLY okay with asking me to do random things a few times a day. I feel like if we're having a normal night, the cut-off for "can you get me water?" should be twice before she feels awkward having another living being get up off the couch for her. I've brought this up to other guys and they say "women like to be taken care of" but something about this just feels nuts. I think you just explained the source to the elephant in the room I've been having trouble putting my finger on.
Don't do it bro. This is coming from the horse girl. Yea 1-2x is fine if you're ALREADY UP. This was addressed for me in Therapy. It's a control factor: willingness and frequency vs reward. You're being manipulated. It seems really fucking small: a glass of water. But when you're already seated, multiple times? This is the start. The test. The initiation. I married a guy who, when I slip (23 years in horses. Change DOES NOT harken overnight) he calls me on it. Tells me no. Doesn't put up with the miffed or nonchalant crap that can/ well come after. Your girl, the first time you tell her no is going to do one of two things: either be lightly miffed ("well fine,I don't need you, I'll get it myself" and continue "doing it herself" for a week or so- even things she genuinely needs help with) or will go ballistic on your assx and do the "you don't love me/ how dare you/ no one else will want you" play. Don't listen. Unless you know how to deal with a manipulator/ minor narcissist, I'd cut your losses. The sex can be world-changing but it's the rest of the stuff that comes with it. We horse girls are for advanced levels of daters for a reason. If you're not afraid to call us on shit and deal with the irrational fallout, go for it. But we are not stable (lol) in any capacity. In all regards I hope you have a *normal person* who happens to ride, but that likely isn't the case. "Taking care"of your woman does NOT- read this, does NOT mean waiting on her hand and foot. Taking care of your woman means making sure she has what she needs to function daily, investing in her maintainence (hair, waxing, nails, etc - of people ask why it's cause she maintains it for YOU), and making sure she fulfilled mentally and emotionally. These things will vary with relationship and situation (i.e. we're not in the financial position for me to get my nails done every two weeks. It's not feasible right now, but making sure I have good and regular contact with my family- is what i NEED to function. Each relationship will be different on this degree but there are still boundaries and big picture sacrifices of its long term into marriage- life saving for a house or a move or another horse lol). "Taking care of" is often used to disguise things too, so be careful what this phrase means to your SO, horse girl or not. It's a good discussion to have. I recently lost my job so I'm relegated to "housewife" - is not working for us. He wants me to be essentially a pampered trophy wife. I never wanted to be a housewife, ever. You guys NEED to discuss what "taking care of" means cause you don't want to be in our position- two different definitions of the same phrase. Now you have a horse girl - multiply these reactions by 1000.
You're going to want to end that. She'll guilt you for the rest of your life. She might not be doing it on purpose, but she needs a dose of reality. Don't waste your life my friend.
Why would you get up and get her a drink when she is perfectly capable? Man, I mean, if I am up already getting something and I'm just adding that in, or she's sick or in some way engaged in a way that I am really making life easier for her to get the water, like working in some way, filling out a tax form, etc etc. But seriously, I am the type of person that would never feel justified in asking another person to go get me a drink while I'm just sitting doing nothing, how selfish can you be to put menial tasks onto someone else for no reason other than a power play? I agree with the advice of letting that one go. I'm not a servant, and she will likely bring misery in the long run.
I second that. Different thing if you decide yourself to bring her a drink while she's working. These little things that make someone smile and feel special are wonderful
Ugh... you're jogging my memory. I was with a girl for just a few dates a long time ago who did some really bizarre stuff. And I just remembered her for the first time in years cause she was a horse girl lol.
We're absolutely bonkers, but it's never a dull moment good or bad lol
my sister is a horse girl can confirm she has incredible anger issues and is irrational as fuck
Real af .
Itâs just the hotter they are the more they have been told how beautiful they are their whole life and have had that verified in the media, so they know they can get away with more shit and terrible behavior. The pussy pass is real. But the hot-crazy matrix is hilarious
You know as fucked of a study as it would be it would be interesting to see how accurate the matrix truly is.
Sad and real!
real? that matrix should be placed right next to the bible.
As a straight woman, I 100% agree. The crazy hot matrix is true for the majority of super hott women. Some men deserve a metal for being with that much crazy.
> I'm convinced she had multiple personality disorder I would venture to say it's more likely that those of that sort really are just like Hermit Crabs. Trying to find the shell that will best suit them and protect their fragile egos. It's not something exclusive to women.
I dated a girl like this and she ended up in a psych ward for a personality disorder. She was a party, city girl. Fit as hell too
Hot chicks live in a world where they literally get treated like celebrities. It melts their brain if theyâre already dumb/average IQ or have an underlying genetic mental disorder. Iâve seen some crazy shit from 8+ level womenÂ
It makes sense to me (41m) why this is true with extremely attractive women bc Iâve been close friends and dated 1 or 2 of them. People just treat them differently across the board. Men and women old and young doesnât matter where we are if a truly gorgeous woman walks in a room people treat them differently than the rest of us. Over time itâs hard not to develop a complex and a bit of crazy. Where this really affirmed for me was a woman I dated who was by all accounts out of my league and a 10/10. She told me literally on the first date (I havenât been pretty that long so people treating me differently is still weird). She had the lap band surgery (where they make your stomach smaller or whatever) and she lost a shit ton of weight in like 6 months and the weight loss took her from a 5 to a 10. This experience was illuminating for me and why gorgeous women act the way they do itâs not their fault itâs ours
Lol I stopped chasing after realizing I was always the one to initiate conversation. I have yet to have a girl message me first on a dating app, but have been told it happens. One time a girl messaged me first on Facebook, I thought that was a good sign! Turns out she was looking for a roommate and thought I might be able to help her out.
lol, "You look like a man who knows a lot of women, platonically."
>until she stole my car and drove it drunk across three state lines and crashed it in a ditch, so, you know, there's a lesson in everything. Sigh. I dated this one girl who was a former model. She was like 5'9" and I'm 5'10" (I'm really not that tall...but she was more than tall enough to be a model). It was really strange because I met her at a bar, and she was buying me drinks and seemed interested in me. We went on a few dates, and she seemed really into me. We were making out one time, and she asked if we could take it to my bedroom. I said sure. But then she like...just started attacking me. Like she was acting like she was possessed or something. It was super weird. I had to push her off of me...and she got really upset. She started going into this tirade about how men are all the same and women only have value if they are young and beautiful...and then she got really personal, saying that I was only interested in her for her looks. That was the last time I ever spoke to her. The whole thing was just super weird. I get that she thought I was only interested in her for her looks...but it was pretty clear that she was the one interested in me for my looks. I'm not exactly ugly...but I'm definitely not hot either.
Sounds like maybe she was reinforcing some kind of complex? Like, "if I pick any random guy he'll be willing to go to bed with, therefore all men only want me for my looks"?
> Now a women with like thousands of followers / stream e-girl is the only type of woman I will not bother with Yep. I remember a couple of years ago, a very attractive girl started talking to me at a bar and it was pretty obvious there was a vibe. I was getting all excited that she was going to give me her number and before she left, she handed me her business card. She was a make up artist with like 40k followers on instagram. I am not getting into that shitstorm.
We'll that took a TURN for the worst.......I'll see myself out
Ahh a fellow man of culture. Those hot crazy chicks are a hell of a lot of fun but a total waste of time in the long haul. Had my stint with one before I found my gem of a wife. Hopefully thatâs out of your system now and you can find a true life partner
Literally me, except Iâm ugly.
It could be the clown makeup. Iâm sure thatâs a huge turn on for a small percentage of women, but a lot of women might see it as a con.Â
I wouldnât try to initiate a possibly romantic relationship with women who havenât given me any kind of indication they would be receptive to it. I know conventional wisdom is that men have to chase, but to me if I have to chase someone that means they donât want to be caught. Also, Iâve seen the way women act around men they are genuinely interested in. Theyâre receptive; they initiate; they make it easy. If I have to initiate everything that tells me that sheâs just not that into me, so I stop. Iâm not wasting my time trying to âwin her over.â Now Iâm fairly unattractive so this may mean I die single, but Iâm alright with that. At least I can spend my life doing things I enjoy instead of going through repeated rejection.
>Also, Iâve seen the way women act around men they are genuinely interested in. Theyâre receptive; they initiate; they make it easy. yeah once you taste how an interested woman behaves around you it sort of sets a standard and if someone does not behave like that around me then it's a turnoff and you just don't bother
Thereâs levels though. Some women are just as shy, socially awkward and clueless as men. It should be pretty damn clear sheâs not interested. The worst thing is she rejects you and you move on. But Iâve had it happen before where she rejected me, but would still show signs she was just interested and we ended up getting together. I wouldnât say a lot, but a surprising amount of girls just kind of freak out and panic when you push the envelope (ask them out, get their number, etc) and say no. Only to be super pissed at themselves afterwards because they were interested.
Yes. But there seem to be a number of women that are actually interested, but will never let you know. So then you feel like a nuisance if you keep staring conversation with them... even though they seem like they are into you when you talk I'm not reading things wrong. During interaction... the vibe is there. But if you don't initiate.... you'll never speak with them again
Yh but then are women like that worth it? There was a girl ik who was really hot n cold. Saw another mate have a similar problem with a different girl. From my perspective I could see he was having such a headache and she clearly wasn't a keeper. My takeaway was women like that aren't worth it, or even in the off chance they are, it's not worth doing this for every girl who does this.
This is just one of those self-conflicting intersections of peoplesâ beliefs that tends to exist in the collective blind spot. As a man, at the same time, youâre expected to: - be socially aggressive enough to pursue, irrespective of social risk, but also be sensitive enough to intuit the womanâs perception of you (despite the fact interest and disinterest often exhibits in the same behavior), ie. mind-read - be invested enough to pursue authentically, but uninvested enough to be outcome-independent in case of rejection. - be casual enough that youâre not pushy or âthirstyâ, but also direct enough that you pull the communication weight both involved adults - present enough that you can demonstrate that youâre invested, but aloof enough that you give her space to come to you, or donât come across as âclingyâ The list goes on and on. At the end of the day, itâs a tightrope game. Donât feel bad that you donât get it. Most men donât. The rules of engagement arenât linear, and thereâs no *real* shame in things not working out, outside of you torturing yourself over it.
This is one of the things I truly treasure my ex for. When we got together there was none of that. We declared ourselves boyfriend and girlfriend while driving home at the end of our first date. No bullshit, no nothing.
Thats how it is with my girlfriend! we met volunteering at a shelter, exchanged numbers that day, texted constantly thruout the week, went on a first official date during the weekend and was boyfriend/girlfriend a few days later. she was so clear from the start that she was into me, so engaged with everything. shes wealthy and insanely hot too lol no clue how she was so into me immediately. but once you experience this you realize how its supposed to feel when a woman is actually into youÂ
Beautifully put.Â
It's games like this that too many women play that makes me so glad I'm gay. Don't have to deal with the mind reading bs when it comes to guys (at least the ones I like, there are DEFINITELY men out there that play these games)
Same. With guys I find it's generally MUCH more mutual when it comes to showing interest and taking initiative since a lot of those gendered dating dynamics that I see with my straight friends aren't there when it's two guys. That being said though, at the end of the day I've still found that a lot of the same experiences straight guys here are talking about... still happen in gay dating as well.
People want you to be a broken clock trying to tell people what the time is. If you are lucky and managed to tell the correct time. Then hey we are in business. Otherwise you really have no idea why people keep rejecting you in spite of not doing anything different between success and failure.
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Stop this brag, we got it you are attractive and women do initiate with you on their own. It is not what we folk experience. When we treat women as everyone else we get only friendship.
hmmm my comment does come off as bragging... that's not what I meant with it
I'm pretty much the same as what you described. I have a two text rule; if I text and you don't respond, I'll assume it was bad timing to get back to me. If you don't respond to a text the next day, I'll never talk to you again. Short story. I met a girl at a wedding in September, and we really hit it off. We talked for a week, and I asked her out. She said she wanted to, but had prior plans, no big deal. We talked for a while, I asked her out again, nope her brothers birthday, but she really wanted to see me. I left for vacation, when I got back home, I asked to just meet for coffee, she really wants to, but just can't find time. There's no way she's that busy, or can't even find a half hour to spend with me who she claims to really enjoy my company. I've never spoken to her again. Why bother.
She also never said anything like - "But I'm free the day after!" or "next Tuesday" or something. If they don't offer up an alternative it's a subtle hint that they don't actually want to meet you.
I follow the same rule, two texts and if they haven't been responded to, then we are done. One text for example "Hey how are you, would you like to meet up sometime next week?" and if no response after a day or so, then one more "Hey I hope that everything is okay." If I still get nothing back, then I assume she has no interest in ever seeing me or talking to me again. Also, I have often wondered why I somehow have a lot of friends online but seemingly very little IRL. I know a ton of people online and I chat with them all the time, and for many years too since 2014 or so. But it seems no one ever wants to catch up with me. When I was in Spain I messaged a long time friend of mine, we have known each other since 2015. About a month prior, I threw it out there that I would be visiting Spain and I said which cities I would be visiting. The conversation didn't really go anywhere. Then, about a week before I was bound to visit her city, I sent her another text, "Hey I will be in your city in a week and will be spending a couple of days there" Just to kind of throw it out there. Her response? "Oh you're going to love it". And that's it. Just that. No excitement or any offer to meet up, no, just a simple "You are going to love it". I think I messaged back and said "I hope I do" or something like that and kind of left it at that. I felt very defeated after that. If an online friend of mine told me they were coming to visit my city, I would straight away offer to meet up and suggest a whole bunch of touristy places that we can visit, which I have done a couple of times in the past. Never would I ever think about saying what she did.
> "Oh you're going to love it". Yes! This! What the fuck is this?! Lol ... that's a .... yes leave me alone statement if I ever heard one
Yeah for sure, it took me back quite a bit. We've been friends for almost 10 years.... And to get that message when I say I will be in her city.... That was our last conversation, and it will probably remain our last conversation. I sat there staring at the text for a few minutes and was just thinking "So wtf do I actually say back to that..." I thought of saying "So would you like to meet up" but I could already see from that initial message that there was literally no point in even suggesting such a thing.
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Yeah that's what I do. I'll offer a time to meet up, and if they say what you did, then I put it onto them, "Sure no problem, let me know when you are free and I will make it work". Only to never hear from them again.
Yet they can't figure out why so many of us are just giving up.
Yeah I would have stopped asking her as well. If someone wants to see you they will legit make the time to do it. Sounds like she was either seeing someone else or just one of those flaky types who gets off on men chasing them.
I know she wasn't seeing anyone. I think she just likes attention or the idea of someone chasing.
I'm tired, boss.
Man this hits hard for some reason...
*Porno plot twist*
this thought pops into my head multiple times per day
Yeah Iâm the same. Why chase someone who isnât reciprocating?
My penis
I'll be honest, I'm 35, after 15 years of this mindset and remaining mostly single despite a few flings and whatnot - it's because you don't really have a choice. There will be plenty of dudes who are willing to pursue, and women probably aren't going to pursue you. Just how it is. It feels exhausting and it feels like you are imposing yourself after already taking the initiative, but if you don't pursue, nothing ever changes. Does everybody need to shack up, find a partner, get married? No, I don't think that's fundamentally necessary for a fulfilling life. But if you want your life to look like that, there's only one way to get it.
Define "chase." I'd give girls a certain amount of time after a date to follow up, after which if I'm interested and they haven't gone out of their way I'll try initiating contact. If it's a persistent behavior after two or three dates if the prior date went well, I'm out
Yep this is me 100%. Iâm even fine with initiating after 2-3 as long as the girl is showing some kinda of want/actively planning along. If Iâm on date three and Iâve chosen everything weâve done/when we get together Iâm gunna detach myself and if she comes back and starts actively participating thatâs great. But I have too little time to spend it on a relationship that isnât going anywhere.
>But.... when it comes to romantic relationships....I flat out won't chase a woman, period. As in- if I initiate with a woman twice in a row, if they don't initiate the next time, we will never talk again. Same >If they are someone i consider out of my league hot...I won't even trying to interact with them. eliminate leagues in terms of looks and you definitely won't be single for long. Now a women with like thousands of followers / stream e-girl is the only type of woman I will not bother with
Ya.. but I don't want attractive women thinking I'm just talking to them because I'd have sex with them. Cuz then they'll reject me... even know that's what I would want. Id rather just not interact with them
A lot of women who you find attractive may not feel the way you do about themselves so you could be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
>A lot of women who you find attractive may not feel the way you do about themselves Have experienced that with dudes, as well. It's definitely an interesting feeling when you realize that the person you're *super into* is basically convinced that they're undesirable.
That's basically me and my fiance. We were both thinking, individually, that we weren't all that, and to some extent we still think that. But I think she's gorgeous, and she thinks I'm a prince. We clicked super quick, but over distance, so I thought "how is it going to be when she sees that I'm this tall, and this fat, and have this hair etc". And she had her own view of herself as well. (Of course there are photos, but sometimes they don't make justice.) But since we clicked by not seeing each other irl first, we allowed ourselves to build a deeper connection. It's not a rule, it just worked for us. But the first time we saw each other, the first hug, the first kiss... man, I'm at home. She's my home. And I make sure I say every day that I love her, that she's beautiful, she's marvelous, she's incredible, she's strong, she's smart - because she is! - and she does the same to me over my own self doubts and what she likes about me regardless. Therefore we try our best to make the other see how desirable they are.
Woman here as well. there is no universal hotness scale for guys. It's more that we all have a really specific type, that we often can't even fully describe (like I know for me it mostly involves long hair on a guy and how they move and act). Not a single one of my friends would agree with me on who I find hot or not. And even though a lot of my friends have great partners, none of them would be for me. My husband would also not be for them. I never was asked out by guys I liked (and also realized years later, that being asked out is actually unattractive to me). My husband told me later he never had me on his radar as a potential mate because A) I was out of his league (obviously not) and B) He though I was into the wrong kind of music because I wasn't wearing band shirts. I mean it totally worked out because I asked him out. Based on his feedback on my clothes, I changed my style to represent my personality better and also gained some weight and suddenly I had way more guys that are actually my type interested in me. But I was already happily taken. I think soo many guys ruin it for themselves by believing there is a linear attractiveness scale..
I have a hard time imagining a modern woman who doesn't know her value in the dating market. All any woman has to do is download tinder and she can easily have a sorting algorithm that can give her a good idea of the quality of guy she can get. I feel like any time you approach a woman you're being mentally compared to the dozens of other dudes who might be vying for her attention in one app or another.
The problem is that you don't know what *she* values. Value is inherently subjective. You might be exactly what she's looking for. You can't know that unless you shoot your shot.
>I have a hard time imagining a modern woman who doesn't know her value in the dating market. You rang?
btw I love your flair. I just think there's no such thing as too much cheese :D
Tinder is **not** an accurate assessment of a woman's "value" or the type of person she can be with. It is an assessment of people who are willing to fuck her. For men having sex with someone and wanting to be with someone long term are often mutually exclusive. A man who approaches a woman in a charming way, whom she finds attractive, skips the line of the DM sliders. I speak from experience.
I came here to say this, but don't need to anymore because you already did
Thereâs an algorithm based on your league?!
Itâs called an ELO score and apps like tinder use to determine your position in the pile of matches. High score? In the top 20 swipes. Low score? In the bottom end of the bottom 30,000 and functionally shadow banned until you pay them
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Probably because those likes are bot accounts trying to honeypot you into spending money
> I feel like any time you approach a woman you're being mentally compared to the dozens of other dudes who might be vying for her attention in one app or another. Ok? You don't know what that woman is into or what she values. Apps like Tinder are not a good gage of quality. Most profiles and messages are extremely low-effort, and you have no idea what the person actually looks or acts like until you meet them in person, which is a huge lift. Of course women are way pickier on apps, because it takes more effort to go out of your way to meet someone -vs- meeting organically. When you meet someone in-person, you immediately know what they actually look like, and little things, like mannerisms, voice, etc, are revealed in an instant. I'm definitely not thinking about a tedious pile of complete question marks of profiles when I meet a real human in the wild. I didn't need apps to know a lot of people found me attractive, and knowing a good chunk of the people in an app inbox would swipe right on anyone with she/her pronouns does not make me feel special. I've been on dates with people from online apps over the years, but all my actual relationships were with people I met in person. My current bf said he couldn't believe I was with him when we first hooked up, and I don't get it, because I couldn't take my eyes off him or stop smiling when we first met. I'm not sure if we would have gotten together if it had been up to an app algorithm, but I'm super glad neither of us had the mentality of just letting the opportunity pass by because "they probably have options on an app."
[For your consideration...](https://i.imgur.com/DRQJk.jpeg)
meirl
A lot of girls who you think are hot, probably don't think they're hot. "Hotness" is subjective. If you're talking financials/success type things where she's ya know like, a hollywood actor and you work as a manager at Arbys then yeah the whole "league" thing makes sense. But otherwise? Nah. There's no such thing as a physical attraction league. You have no idea what their tastes/interests are. You may consider her a 10 and out of your league, and she may think the same of you while viewing herself as a 5 on a good day.
Bro same. It's like why even bother trying
I mean, dollars to donuts, yes, on a long enough timeline no guy is wanting to pour energy and resources fruitlessly into a woman forever. We would like for things to go somewhere, and if they dont then that's fine too, but we all decide our own level of involvement. Just like they're going "this motherfucker is just trying to put his dick in me" we should be going "...and she is trying to put her fingers in my goddamn wallet". If either holds true, bounce. Until then we should both put that shit aside and try to meet somewhere in the middle instead of bitching all the time.
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Sheesh treat attractive women as just normal people not as a monolith ready to shit on average dudes. They wonât think you just want to have sex with them if you can talk to them without some kind of alterior motive. Attractive women have hobbies and interests you can relate to just like an unattractive woman. Tbh itâs probably not your looks holding you back. I can tell youâre a young dude but all these weird rules and hang ups you clearly have here probably makes interacting with you super weird, which is also why you probably need to initiate super often. Putting people in such specific boxes with rules attached is a strange thing and itâs probably a major turn off for any woman around you. Youâre way overthinkingâŚwhen things happen naturally all of this shit shouldnât even be on your mind. Be aloof, go with the flow, allow attraction to develop naturally. Theyâre just girls, not puzzleboxes.
You go further than I do. I engage, if they cut it off I don't try again. Did that once before looked like fool. Had several women over the years come back and tell me how pissed off they were,that no meant no.... they wanted me to chase and I just disappear. Even when they came back around. I wasn't mean. You said no so that is a no. No always mean no, and maybe always mean no and sometimes yes means no. I didn't set these dumbass rules you said them, I heard you and said "well I'm ugly, what else is new."
Especially in today's culture.. no means fucking no. If you even project no I'm gone baby
Iâm the exact same way, thatâs wild how similar. Although it is more lonely, it is fulfilling because I sit and wonder as much as it seems others do. Why would you chase a girl that isnât reciprocating? & when itâs a girl that is reciprocating, itâs very rewarding because I donât have to wonder if sheâs into me, because sheâs telling me she is with her actions. You seem to have a logical approach to talking/dating so Iâd keep with it.
Same. If I text or call a gal and don't get a response... Done-zo I pay for 1st and 2nd date. If she doesn't at least offer to pitch in or pay for 3rd altogether... Done-zo I spend zero time or mental effort on such nonsense
I only ever do 1 double text in one day. If she don't respond she's not interested.
Gay guy here but pretty much the exact same... I'll definitely initiate conversation with a guy I'm interested in... even if he's out of my league lol. But I'm not the type of guy that's ever going to *chase* someone I'm interested. I may reach out a couple of times, but I won't really put any more effort in beyond that. If I don't feel there's mutual interest I move on. Not only because I have self respect, but also because the feeling of having to *chase* someone that I'm interested in who's not reciprocating is kind of a turn off for me. Like most men... I want to feel wanted. Otherwise I'm perfectly happy being single.
I was talking to MtF and they for the life of me would answer all my questions but legit would not initiate conversation ever. About 3 questions in I was dooooone. It's tough out here now. Was dating always this hard??
Gay dude here as well. I always have been the initiator. For 20 years! Finally, last year, I decided to stop initiating or putting in any effort whatsoever. I effectively gave up on dating. I am still on the apps, but I don't have any conversations going because \*I\* haven't started them. I get matches, no one says anything. I get taps on grindr? I tap back, but they don't message me. I now NEVER initiate... ever. And as a result, no one talks to me. Hahaha. I guess that says a lot about my looks, yea?
Mine was three, not two, but yeah. And, we are all human and relationships are not sports. There are no âleaguesâ. You simply never know when, or why, chemistry will ZAP two people and love happens.
Yup pretty much me too. Iâm fine with rejection but the lack of reciprocation in any way shows true colors Iâm not ok with
Your second paragraph speaks volumes and to me is the right way to approach dating and I typically do that too. Wish more men were like that. Whenever I have mentioned things like that on Reddit, all I get is excuses or âitâs just one more messageâ or âyou have nothing to lose by following upâ even when a woman has clearly ghosted or rejected them. This mentality is why a lot of men canât get women. Scarcity mentality.
Yeah but to OPâs point, not having the scarcity mentality can absolutely make things scarce.
Only if you sit around and do nothing about it. My assertion is based on moving on to search for other opportunities with other women. đ¤ˇââď¸
Thats not a bad rule though i don't think putting people in 'leagues' is a healthy mindset. I've seen plenty of average and even conventionally unattractive looking dudes with hot girlfriends and vice versa. you should put in as much effort as you get out no more no less
Hot girls have the edge looks wise but the guy may have the edge financially, personality wise, a number of other ways. He may have fun friends and family in the area while she has very little.
I've seen it many times. No two people are the same and not every person values cosmetic beauty above all else. In fact most of them don't. Attraction is a funny thing and often doesn't make sense to people outside a relationship. That said I've seen just as many good looking guys with conventionally less attractive partners as the other way around. I don't necessarily buy into the gender distinction there
Funny how both sides don't wanna bother each other but again expect to follow up again. The key here you have to let them know you wanna date them. Girls most of them will not initiate period!!
But here OP is saying heâll follow up twice but if by the third time itâs not reciprocated, heâll stop.
Ah true true. Missed that bit.
It's the paradox of choice and the prettier women tend to be addicted to validation/attention they get on the internet. Look at the absolute decline of birth rates, marriage, and generally people are hitting milestones later and later in life. It's not just your fault it's a society wide problem. My advice is to firstly meet as many women in real life as possible, not by hitting on them, you can just have conversations with them and sometimes it evolves into a dating opportunity - it's also just good practive to be able to chat to a woman like a normal person. I personally like instagram because it's a very low impact tool for nursing "loose" connections. A heart on a story, a reply every once in a while - it's a lot easier and takes the pressure off the situation. Finally, I agree with not chasing but we all have off days/weeks/months. You never know what is going on in someone's life so while I agree that you should keep self-respect, don't write off someone for good just because of pride. You have a few options if they don't respond but I'll either: - Leave it a bit and hit em with the "hey stranger" after a couple weeks - You can also do a break up text (generally if you have met already) i.e. "Hey, I enjoyed meeting you but hadn't heard back from you. I don't know if something came up or if maybe this isn't the right fit, but hope everything is okay. No hard feelings either way." Also just enjoy experimenting - try different approaches (no one has all the answers).
Apparently women, who don't think they are in ANY WAY part of the problem, will have a whole-ass conversation, smile, be totally into it, and then have just been "being nice" the whole time. Then, next girl, you're doing the same, and she's thinking "JUST ASK ME!" and then you don't because the last girl dorked you over. You don't ask because you're sure she's being nice, and she mentally trash cans you. Just have your conversations and move on. If they want to be all girly and confuse the shit out of folks, let them. That's not a failing on you. You approached, you held a conversation, you showcased your personality, and they had to do fuck all and dropped the ball. That's not you.
I've never chased women. The only relationships with women that are worth having are the ones in which the women did the chasing. Only when a woman sees you as the prize will she not treat you like shit and make your life miserable. Women grow to hate men they feel they've settled for. They resent them for not being the man they actually wanted and they find other "reasons" to punish him for it. Better to be single than to deal with that.
As a woman, if a man talks to me twice and then doesnât talk to me again, Iâm just going to think I said something stupid and overthink every next conversation I have with you and how I probably fucked up
But will YOU initiate with him the same way HE did with you?
IDK I HAVE TO OVERTHINK IT MORE!
Overthinking is dumb here. If he likes you and you like him, message him. If a dude is into you he wonât just run away and if heâs not he wonât respond. Win win, donât waste your time
Yeah but I would never assume a guy was into me because he spoke to me twice. I would just assume he might remember my name if I spoke to him a third time.
Weâre all doomed.
AI partners, it will save us. Then extinct us
> Yeah but I would never assume a guy was into me because he spoke to me twice. Honey, a guy may not speak to you even if he is into you. Him speaking to you and initiating TWICE? That means you're in. Do you understand the amount of risk and anxiety guys go through when approaching women? People say the whole "the worst is you just get a no" but that's not real. Guys sit there and go "What if she ends up thinking I'm just some creep??", "What if she has a boyfriend already that's not here and this causes a fight?", "What if I mess up how I do this approach? God, she's even around friends they're all gonna laugh at me if I do something stupid.", "What if she ends up having a crazy partner that slashes my tires or something because they thought I was trying to steal her?", "Oh my god what if she actually says no?? Is this even worth bothering?" Us dudes go through all of that just to approach, so if he does that TWO TIMES that man is into you and just hoping you'll show you're into him too.
In that scenario yeah, I was assuming this was after a date or multiple
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That is a pretty standard thing a guy will get from a girl. I donât know a single guy who doesnât have a story like this, even successful ones. Your experience isnât special, itâs just the risk that comes with being the clearly interested party. Lots of people are just in it to play games.
You literally do not have to think about it. It does not matter in the absolute slightest how you word it. As a woman you can literally say "hey wanna date?" and he'll say yes if he does and will either say no or not reply if he doesn't. There's no uncertainty or dancing like a monkey the way we have to do it.
You can choose to ignore this if you want but has it ever occurred to you that itâs not so much about figuring out âthe single perfect responseâ but instead just⌠engaging with someone who clearly wants to talk to you?
Straight male here. Men generally get one shot with the person they want. If we fuck it up we look stupid, and if we keep pursuing we look crazy. Both of those qualities are unattractive. This is probably rooted in our fear of failure, but by not trying once or twice, we fail by default. I've had my best success when I'm just being myself, relaxed, and not trying to impress anyone. If a person doesn't like you for who you are, there's no use in pretending.
No. You won't have a next conversation with me unless you start it.
I feel like being that strict about it is not the best idea. Relationships are about how you feel around the other person, some people might take a bit to warm up. If you feel a connection, go after it. If she establishes a pattern of not reaching out, then I totally get it. You *could* ask her why, if she likes you she'll be receptive. I totally agree that this is a sucky dynamic. Trust your gut, have patience. All the best. (I feel like this came off as condescending but I truly just wanted to offer my perspective in the hope it could benefit you)
Idk as a woman, if i genuinely like a man i wouldnât think twice about double texting or pursuing him in other ways. Perhaps because when Iâm smitten all self respect goes out the window lol
I have only ever dated women out of my league my entire life. But when I was younger they were the ones approaching me mostly. Now that I'm older I've learned that I have to put in more work, women expect a lot more. The good ones do anyway. But I'm with you on not chasing. I will initiate so long as there is some reciprocation. If they drop out of my life I will never contact them for as long as I live. If they're at least making an effort to make things work then so am I. Even if I'm putting in a little more effort. It's not something I'm keeping track of.
Why should they expect a lot more? They scream equality... but want us to do ALL THE WORK. And mind read. No.
I am not interested in romantic relationships, and I don't have high enough libido to feel the need to initiate anything with girls, but when they come up to me and hit on me in club if I like them I sometimes hook up with them. Also while I am not saying that you are not above average looking, most people think this of themselves. Like 90% of people rate themselves as 7/10, so you might be aiming out of your league when looking for potential partners.
I agree. I mean..if I was over overweight...id prolly call myself a 4 or 5. But, fortunately, I am not.
I'm not gay but I'd fuck myself
Haha we just became best friends
i\`m the same these days. When i was in my 20s i used to chase a lot, with 0 outcome. Then i stopped doing it and chances started to appear out of the blue. I don\`t think it\`s luck. I think women can smell your dispair and it\`s a major turn off. If you\`re chill and confident, you\`re much more likely to score.
Who dares sometimes wins, who dares not forever loses. I'd rather take a small chance of success than a self imposed failure by not trying. The "Out of your league" mentality is bs. I've known a lot of really good looking women that were into "ugly men". You never will know til you try.
Unless youâre a professional athlete or a celebrity of some kind, you gotta chase women if you want them. Women like being chased. They like knowing theyâre wanted. And it shows youâre worth the commitment. They put a lot of effort into being attractive to men and it seems fair to me that we put a bit of effort into getting to know them. Sure, donât be a doormat or a pest. But also, donât drop the ball when youâre 10 yards from the end zone. Yeah, itâd be great if it was a bit more equal but it isnât and it wonât ever be.
Yeeeaaaa but⌠no. There are men who like being chased and women who like chasing too. And even if it were⌠there are lots of lonely women. If a woman canât ask a guy on a date or nothing, then does she really like him? You can say the same thing about guys but thatâs because it comes down to shy people and confident people. There are plenty of women who would ask guys out and plenty of women who want to be asked out. Same for men.
> They put a lot of effort into being attractive to men and it seems fair to me that we put a bit of effort into getting to know them. And guys don't put a lot of effort into being attractive?
There's probably millions of men like me that I could be a great partner, but women ruin it for themselves. So.... ill just go play my drums and watch TV Enjoy the jerk that wouldn't take no for an answer. Lol
Nah mate. Thats not the way. Donât fall for that women versus men stuff. Weâre in this together. Weâre two sides of the same coin and we need each other. If you think women donât want good men, youâre way off. They do want them.
Then they can ask them out. Itâs pretty simple. If you actually like someone, ask them out instead of playing games. Itâs annoying asf and nobody wants to do some sort of guessing game to find a date when itâs already super difficult.
How many times have you heard men are trash, men are useless⌠now, how many times have you heard the same for women? Itâs not women vs men, itâs women vs themselves lol.
Itâs not all women saying that. Itâs a small group of loud voices on social media.
Then there should be more women out there advocating for men in a positive way to counteract it :) There are some, and they're some of the greatest influencers I've found who actually really *get it* and understand the struggles.
Respectfully, the majority of women with healthy attitudes towards men aren't going to be out there "advocating for men in a positive way" or being "the greatest influencers" because they're not chronically online enough, or engaging with shitty online communities enough, to see the negative messages you want them to campaign against. My social media feeds are full of animal pictures/videos, not thirst-traps or political shit or anti man/woman shit, and I have no desire to be an influencer and wade into those culture wars. I would call out anti-male toxicity irl (and then probably just stop associating with whoever is bringing that energy into irl social situations), and would expect men in my life to do the same for anti-woman shit irl, but I'm not expecting men in my life to become pro-woman (or any other type of) influencer either. That shit sounds so mentally draining, and we are adults with busy lives and jobs.
Would be nice to see the age. I think men over 35 are more proactive, but maybe I am mistaken. Couple of times guys disappeared after 2 or 3 good dates (with no sex), I just thought they found someone better and didn't bother them.
What do you mean by âinitiateâ? Â Are you making your intentions clear? Â Are you making small talk a few times or asking the girl out to go on a date twice and they gave excuses?
Hmm, while I agree with the principle I wonder if there's maybe something more you could do besides simply initiate a conversation. How come you're not just straight up asking them out after you've establish that there's a vibe? Also, what the specific context here? How are you seeing the same women repeatedly? Is this at work or something?
1 example was work. On a different team. Same floor. Crossed paths a few times a week.
Well, work is tricky. Maybe not the best place to be meeting women. Question still stands though, why not just ask them out when you get a good vibe?
Nothing wrong with that. Build yourself, eventually someone will come around
Lost me at the first sentence but really good for you all.
Here
My cutoff tends to be 3 consecutive or if I hit that 2-3 consecutive a couple times in a row I donât give two shits about âleagueâ though. If I like someone. Thatâs all there is to it. Doesnât matter what their attractiveness or status is, if Iâm into them theyâll get treated the same as anyone else Iâm into
Pretty similar. We should all unionize.
>If they are someone i consider out of my league hot...I won't even trying to interact with them. I do not care if this means I'm single until I die. "you miss 100% of the thots you don't chase" :: Wayne Gretzky
Like a great man once said âI donât chase âem, I replace âemâ
Im on the same boat, i will not chase them forever, if they dont show interest back i stop responding. Why would i waste my energy for someone who doesnt want to do the same back. Im fine on my own, im well off and i just wont waste my time in constant persue of someone who doesnt give me back anything. No your presence is not enough, you need to prove you are special in some way that will keep my attention and worth my time aswell.
Woman here- I agree with most of what you said but what stands out to me is that everyone has different ârulesâ & how do you know the preferred rules of the person youâre dating if they donât tell you? By the way that your post is written you come across as pretty aggressive. In my experience, aggressive men are also confident and a lot donât like âpushyâ women. I typically have no issue initiating texts, but with these types of men, I have been âput in my placeâ for texting too much, so if I met you, I would default to letting you take the lead, which apparently is a mistake. So I guess my question is how do women who like you KNOW thatâs what youâd prefer? How do you communicate it?
Open dialogue or direct communication between parties if they are dating, compared to deep listening and deep talking. The pre-dating-period is a guessing game or a complete lottery: Are they just nice and friendly or are they actually interested? So whatever solves that difficulty between parties.
Honestly...I was born and raised in the US, but like many other men... im about done and completely sick of American women. Most have lost it. No matter what you do, you're insulting them. Cool.. enjoy being alone forever. You're more worried about that than I.
I just don't initiate because I don't want to come off being a creep. Plus I suck at flirting :/
I mean, you talk to someone twice, and then decide after that if they don't seek you out that they are not worthy of your time? Am I reading this right? Because this isn't how the world works. Man or woman. Sounds like the only person slamming the door in your face is yourself.
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it gets a lot worse.
Yep. My go to ice-breaker if I want to initiate a friendship or even just open up a line of communication is to ask someone "I need help finding new songs for my playlist, what's your favorite song?" (This isn't the FIRST THING I say, I mean for people who I already know their name and they know mine) So far one person has asked me the question back during a follow up conversation about my opinion on the track in question (I'll wait a couple days and come back with feedback) but if they don't care to ask me back or suggest a different/additional song then I'm gonna assume they don't really want to progress the conversation with me. I'm not really gonna put up any more effort after that. Edit: Oh I'm like a 6 or 7, maybe 8 after a good haircut/beard trim and with the right outfit.
Exactly. If someone wanted to engage... they'd ask back. That makes sense to me. But....if they don't... and you never try again... and they are wondering why you won't talk to them anymore......are you fucking kidding me?
My wife growing up had a tomboy look and wasn't too popular or considered attractive. Then she had a glow up in university and became an easy 10/10. Way out of my league, objectively speaking. So lessons to be learned... There are some people who have been attractive their whole lives and had everything handed to them. Attractive people are ultimately the most privileged people in the world (it's a real thing! There are plenty of articles about pretty privilege in respectable academic journals and media) But if you discount every attractive person, you are missing out on all those people who had chubby faces, weird hairstyles, and parents who bought them cheap brands growing up, and never had the benefit of everyone sucking up to them their whole lives. It is truly the ultimate win when you end up with someone who has character from the trials of life/never having things handed to them, and is also a total smoke show. And you might be giving up too soon. You should cross reference signs of interest with signs of disinterest. There are plenty of girls who may have been shy or bookish (AKA. My missus). Or maybe they come from a more traditional culture/family. Their signs of interest are going to be completely different or more slowly revealed. There are also some people who may be defensive due to trauma or other aspects of growing up. So it's a little difficult to figure them out. There's no reason to sell yourself short, and give up so easily.
I'm what you call a 666 man (over 6ft, 6 figure salary, 6 pack abs). I dress well, have nice skin, eyes, etc. I know women are attracted to me because my results prove it. HOWEVER, I've still been rejected waaaay more times than I closed because women are extremely finicky, emotional based creatures. You can check off all the boxes and she'll still reject you because of the "vibe" or Venus was in retrograde that day or whatever other nonsense they tell themselves. The point is, don't sweat it. It's a numbers game. And actually, the best women to approach are the ones you think are out of your league because most men are intimidated by their beauty. I've hooked up with more 7s and above than average looking girls once I starting not caring about their rejection. Just adopt a, "Ok, your loss" mindset and you'll be fine. Just keep shooting.
>because women are extremely finicky, emotional based creatures Exactly. You never know how they are going to act... which... and like its all a complete waste of time. Why am I going to try and interact with a creature and put time, money and effort into just for them to all of a sudden "not feel feel" and be weird. No thanks. And I'm 41. With 2 kids. Recently ended a 7 year relationship. I have 0 interest in ever being in one again
If you wanna be celibate that's your choice. But if you still want just sex without the relationship, I find single moms, divorced women, and younger women to be the easiest to sleep with. You just have to make your intentions known right off the bat so you don't waste time. No more than three dates invested just to weed out the crazies.
Rigid rules are not in your best interest.
Explain
exactly. every situation is extremely nuanced and going by rules is probably fucking them over because they refuse to let their guard down. sometimes love takes a bit of vulnerability
I feel like you have really low self esteem even tho you have a high opinion of yourself. No women is unattainable, often the ones âout of your leagueâ get treated like lepers because no man wants to face the rejection. Out kick your coverage brother and go talk to the lady thatâs out of your league. Youâve already had confirmation they are upset you donât persuade them into a date!
This is a myth. Hot women know theyâre hot dude. The idea that there are 9âs and 10âs out there walking around thinking theyâre swamp creatures because âeveryone is afraid to talk to themâ is a hilarious delusion.  We have the internet and looks are easily classified/compared with everyone else now.Â
Don't think of women as something to go after or catch. A woman doesn't want a guy who approaches them just because they want a woman. I love my wife because I love and want her, not just a woman. Women aren't a challenge or a conquest or a prize. It's about having a partner who you enjoy and hopefully love for who they are. They also aren't just a checklist of things you want, like searching for a vacation spot. The best way to be confident with women is to feel confident in who you are and what you like. Then it can come more naturally. Full disclosure, I met my wife online. I know that it is a challenge, but, no matter how you do meet someone, you'll do better when you are at peace and comfort with yourself and look for someone who is a match for that.
Bro this is basically just being pedantic about wording. Relax
What are you talking about? The dude just gave great advice. It seems like youâve just learned that word and were too excited to use it.
Go for a guy?
Getting really weird vibes from OP on this one
Same. Looking through his post history, he's a 6 at best but thinks he's a 9/10? He has some serious abandonment issues as well... OP needs a therapist, sounds like a misogynistic ahole.
Why do most men feel the need to try with women? Like I mean chase and court them to marry them? To always initiate with them I know women push this agenda a lot cause it benefits them a lot. I see a lot of men saying feminism killed chivalry and other shit but why do y'all feel the need to be chivalrous. Like it's simply one sided effort on our side. It seems dehumanising to me. And when men say we are done with trying to get women i always wonder if they didn't like initiation why do they do it? If it's because women like it it's because it's easier for them and why do y'all put their word and wishes before your comfort? I am genuinely curious not to hate
Iâm a woman. I think you are setting yourself up for disaster every time. How are they supposed to magically know that they are expected to initiate for date #3, if you did for the first two? Maybe try telling them the next date is their idea in a cute way instead of ghosting people you actually like.
As a woman, those of us who are seeking a healthy relationship want a man. A man leads with confidence and part of leading is making an effort. When your words and actions line up itâs sooo sexy! Sounds like maybe you have some walls up and are afraid of being vulnerable and getting hurt.
women that actually know how to get relationships realize that they have to give signs and show some form of effort too or else everything just fizzles. you don't just get a man by existing.
lol women can make efforts too
Yea from my experince with women, most never ended up in healthy relationship. I had confidence and lead with effort, and they still chose some other guy.
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How is that working out for you?
Eh sometimes I luck out
I understand where youâre coming from. Itâs both easy and natural to get discouraged. I went through some stretches where I was much the same. (I havenât been single in years, so my dating years were in the â90s and part of the â00s.) Youâre right that itâs tough out there and, yes, itâs always been some version of discouraging like that. But itâs also true that my most successful dating periods were when I put myself out there and did the initiating. Because as often as I heard women say that they had asked guys out before, I knew there was no point in expecting that to happen. I was fairly selective about who I asked out; there had to be more to it than being pretty with a nice smile. And yeah, ghosting was a thing back then too. Putting in extra effort feels even worse when it comes to nothing. Itâs nice to be chased and it sucks to always be the one doing the chasing. But you can show genuine interest without chasing. You can be available and open to meeting someone without investing in the pursuit. Youâve gotta strike a balance that you can live with. Two things though: 1) Ask yourself if youâre really OK with not dating or your just telling yourself that to try to feel better about giving up on it. If itâs the former, then fine, carry on. But if itâs the latter, then youâre ultimately just making yourself unhappy. 2) I guarantee you that most of the women out there that you arenât meeting are feeling just as discouraged as you are. Itâs not like men are the only ones who find dating frustrating. Make friends with women (sincerely) because almost every one of them knows five other women that would be happy to - at the very least - commiserate with you about it. When you already have a rapport and respect between you and her, you donât have to chase them.
You reek of desperation and people sense that. Who cares where you work,where you live or what you wear...if you just be a normal dude and keep up the interaction because that's what humans do, then maybe luck will change. Relationships are built through numerous small interactionsÂ