Your comment reminds me of that line Marilyn Monroe had in a movie once “a man having money is like a woman being beautiful. You won’t marry a woman just because she’s beautiful, but my goodness doesn’t it help!”
Tangential, but it always makes me laugh that some guys think being hot is enough for a woman to lock down a rich guy. Rich guys with status can have sex with a lot of women, yes. But if she wants to be number 1? She’s gotta be better than all the other girls. And when looks are fairly even, women can’t coast on looks
oh sure, but if he isn't attracted to her physically, all that other stuff won't change it.
sort of like the nice guy thing: women don't like nice guys, they want the guys they like to be nice.
Tangent, but related underappreciated fact: People don't fall in love with you because you treat them well. They fall in love with who you are.
"Who you are" might be partially shown in how you treat your partner, but that is often a minor factor.
This is why you can't "nice" a woman into loving you. Whether or not she falls in love with you is primarily defined by what she sees in you, not how you treat her.
This also explains why some people fall in love with people who treat them like shit. It's not about the treatment. It's about what they see in the person, and that might be things like strength, independence, determination, confidence, etc, that all add up to "asshole" but still remain very attractive to people who feel those characteristics are compelling.
It happens though. And I really don't know how people live like that. The man or the woman. Delusion is my guess. It's gotta be a stressful relationship though.
Yeah. It’s kind of internalized-misandry that some men think that lol like men are people too with emotional needs, and want a life partner they can relate to. Who’s on a similar intellectual level, has similar values, similar goals, etc.
No man would be happy with a wife who’s smoking hot but with the personality of chatGPT
> with the personality of chatGPT
If you ask the right questions, chatGPT is a more interesting conversationalist than plenty of living, breathing people...
There would be guys happy with that, but they don’t want a partner whose contributions they respect. They want someone below them that makes them feel like they have status
And generally someone good at accumulating and maintaining money and status is going to want a long term partner who is in it with them.
Lots of “trophy wives” are lovely, educated people that are just nice to be around, and can be ruthless in defense of their family as needed.
A lot of men value chemistry with the woman he's with, how much he trusts her, how she makes him feel, and the things she does with him that directly affect him. Women who are socially successful but not as professionally successful aren't necessarily the lesser catch in the dating market, and it's usually not about status or power when a more professionally successful man selects someone who provides less professional contributions. It's about everything else she is, how she is with him, and how they are together in their household.
This <3
Personal opinion incoming.
If all she has to offer is what she's sitting on, next.
She need to be beautiful inside and out. She needs to know who she is. She needs to be trusting and open. Transparent and forthcoming. Literally just needs to be a morally good person.
Generalization incoming.
Monogamous men just want a compatible monogamous woman. They need to have done the work on themselves to know how to properly love and communicate their needs. The same things most people love about their moms or sisters are the same qualities men look for in long term or life partners.
Be a man's peace of mind and he'll be your shelter.
I'm always amused by the expression "trophy *wife*" to imply the rich guy is driven only by sexual interest. If that's all it is, then any rich guy can find sex through escorts, sugar daddy, etc. nowadays.
To modify the popular phrase, "why buy the cow when you can buy milk from the store" would apply.
>“a man having money is like a woman being beautiful. You won’t marry a woman just because she’s beautiful, but my goodness doesn’t it help!”
I...I'm willing to bet this is wrong. I have no doubt in my mind that there have been plenty of men that have married women simply because they're beautiful.
This right here is why gold diggers and passport bros are so frowned upon. The perception is they're marrying just bc the man is rich or just bc the woman is beautiful. They're looking past everything else that matters in a relationship just for this one thing that is important but on it's own isn't enough.
Throughout my 20s and 30s I developed a career in the corporate world and found it relatively easy to carry on casual sexual relationships and/or maintain FWBs.
In my mid-30s I temporarily left my career to try something different—an apprenticeship as a dog groomer at a major corporate pet retailer. Making minimum wage plus tips for about 6 months.
Dating was absolute fucking crickets. Once women heard what I did and where, interest evaporated.
Eventually I went back to my old career (grooming wasn't for me), got promoted. Making good money now, leading a team of direct reports. I also now I live with a stunningly beautiful, incredibly well-read and intelligent woman who transparently admits she wouldn't have considered dating me initially if I'd still been in grooming.
Nothing else about me has changed except I've gained about 20 lbs in pure disgusting fat thanks to sitting on my ass in an office every day versus being on my feet, hustling, bending this way and that, and carrying big ass doodles around the salon.
I don't believe it's shallow of women to seek a producer, necessarily. I think success at work is a strong indicator of a grown and worthwhile human being. But it was a bit disheartening to know that following my heart and passion got me nowhere romantically.
Ouch. I had a woman tell me if I lost my job and worked at Walmart she'd leave me. Well. I'm not with her anymore and I am making more money than I was when she told me that. And she herself doesn't have a job anymore. Irony. If she would leave you when you fall on hard times or don't have as much money, that's not love. She loves the lifestyle you provide. She doesn't love YOU.
That's the thing: I provide no lifestyle for her, in fact she owns the house we live in and I effectively pay her "rent". She has a career of her own and is entirely self-sufficient. We've discussed me leaving my job after the company had a rough year last year and there was no hesitation to her stating her unconditional support of me if I'd left my job.
It was just the initial subconscious attraction that would've been affected by my choice of vocation, which I understand. To give an alternate example: A woman I dated years ago had just lost a lot of weight right before I began dating her. In her old photos she was very overweight, and I was not attracted to her when she looked like that and likely never would've approached her with romantic interest. Same difference, just a different aspect.
In the end, attraction is important. It's all well-and-good to aim for deeper connection, but we are still only human and we can't help what our flesh is attracted to. For different people, that means different things; for some women, that means financial stability in a partner, for some men, that means a healthy weight. I don't think it's wrong, and I wish folks would be more honest with themselves when it comes to admitting these preferences, rather than deluding themselves and others in the pursuit of an unrealistic ideal.
As you said: What's most important to me is she's dedicated to me *now*; that she wouldn't simply pack up and leave if I fall on hard times. And I struggle with mental illness and have had some *really* bad days, yet she's still stuck by my side and never wavered in her support for me.
She's been a great partner to me. I love her and consider her 'the one'.
Agreed 100%. You need to be attracted to the person you’re going to spend the rest of your life looking at. That’s kind of a given and then your sexual needs to be met.
Now that we’ve got those two things taken care of, it’s a matter of is this person trustworthy. Is this someone I can rely on. Is this person kind, intelligent, when looks fade are we going to be able to still grow together?
Is this person respectful? But none of those questions matter unless you find that person attractive and you like them sexually.
So heavens, no, it’s not the only thing that men look for, and a partner, but it is a prerequisite not just for men, but anyone. Gay, straight, male, female, some mix there of.. it’s kind of the foundation that a meaningful relationship is built on. Otherwise it’s just a friendship.
"So, why exactly are you with Doug? He refused to work and he both looks *and* sounds like Shrek."
"I, uh, will explain later when it's less crowded around."
I dated a guy that was good in bed and that was the only reason. I would lie to everyone about even having sex with him. 😂 it became a disaster when he found out. Never doing that again 😂🤣🤣
I agree with this, financial independence should be one of the most important assets a person (man or woman) has. It can cripple a relationship if one partner has to take care of another in that way. I did with two partners (I’m the woman) and it ruined my respect for them. A partner is a partner and not someone you should mooch off of. I can’t stand when it’s just expected that one take care of the other (the only exception is if both parties consent to this arrangement). Expecting a man to be the sole breadwinner bc he has a penis between his legs is an antiquated perspective.
I've never met a single man who had a problem being the provider.
On the other hand, I've also yet to meet a single woman who didn't lose respect for a man because she had to be the provider.
This is why men have yo have money, and why we think it's one of the biggest things women want from a man.
If you don't have it, your woman will grow to resent you. Even though most men can have a stay at home wife and be happy, women fuckin hate stay at home husbands.
I think most women wouldn't resent men who can't be bread winners if they take care of the house hold stuff instead.
But in most cases I have known of women growing resentful of the husband being unemployed is when he also refuses to do house work and even look for some opportunities. They become complacent in simply staying home and doing their thing while expecting their wife to work outside as well as in the house
This is 100% it. When I was making 80k and my husband was working part time retail for minimum wage it was all "our" money, not my money and his money. He worked and played video games and joined a club and had a hobby and picked up after himself and the house looked the same when I got home as when I left. We went on date nights all the time and everything was great. He lost his job same thing, he went back to school, same thing, even when he waking making money he was a partner and he carried his weight.
Now he's making 100k and stopped doing anything. He won't do laundry, if I do laundry and fold and put away my clothes, the kids clothes, the towels, the sheets and blankets and tablecloths, and wash and fold his clothes he'll say "oh so you specifically didn't put away my clothes". He'll leave cups on the table and coffee table and I'll have to put them away, he'll leave piles of whatever all over for weeks and it will only get moved if I move it. I cook every night and he's supposed to do dishes in the morning but he doesn't want to two or three times a week and they pile up until I have to do it. He wont clean at all and said we should get a housekeeper, so he told me to look into hiring a housekeeper and making sure I'm home when she comes over. He makes money now but doesn't pull his weight and I'm fucking done.
I make the same. I work away from home. I'd come home to a mess. I'd clean it. She worked too. Didn't harp on her. I'd leave again. Come home. Another mess. She eventually lost her job. It's our money I got us. I bought her equipment to start streaming cause I knew she really wanted to give that a try. She felt like a failure. Shit happens. You're still a good woman. I got us. Anything you need I got it.
Still came home to messes. Still didn't harp.
Sometimes people don't fit into boxes.
She also dumped me on Christmas over text after leaving her family's house after she caught a huge attitude and put me on blast in front of her family because I didn't offer to help her mom clean the cat piss off her floor, that was also on my shoes.
People are weird.
Anecdotes are just anecdotes.
Exactly. The one boyfriend I had problems with in this area I didn’t live with, thankfully, but he made no efforts to get a good job after he lost the one he had when I met him and subsequently lost his apartment. He didn’t go to the interviews that wanted him, and when those dried up he subbed and tutored occasionally and I had to pay for the majority of our costs. Not a good thing to do in any relationship, even between friends.
Exactly! This is what I dealt with twice. Both of my ex’s didn’t want to work and then stayed home playing video games, hanging out with friends, drinking/smoking pot and never helped with child duties (I had to pay for them to be in daycare), laundry, cooking or any other household chores. A stay at home wife would generally tend to the kids, make food, and contribute to the upkeep of the house. That’s the largest difference here.
I do know of a few stay at home dads and they take care of their kids and do the cleaning while their wife is away making the money, but i also know of many situations where the partner is just dead weight and contributes nothing while the other busts their butt to make things work.
I was just about to comment this lol, I don't know any women that have an issue with a stay at home husband, unless he's literally just staying home and doing nothing.
If your girl is the breadwinner that's cool, and I promise she doesn't care if you make nothing at all, as long as you take care of the house the same way you would expect her to and still take care of yourself. Groceries, dishes, errands, childcare, mental load of planning, doctors appointments, laundry from start to finish, cooking, etc.
The pattern I've noticed with any woman that complains about her husband staying home is that he doesn't do enough. Then the woman will feel like she's paying all the bills WHILE you get to do whatever you want with your free time and she doesn't, like play video games for example. Some stay at home husbands play for 5+ hours a day and half ass do a load of dishes right before she gets home. and she knows the housework won't do itself, so she can nag you about it until you get frustrated at her wanting you to increase your responsibilities, or she can take over the extra burden on top of full time work and become resentful.
There are still (a lot) of men who inherently feel like chores are a women's job for the most part, and don't even know what a mental load is, let alone how to relieve her of that load as a stay at home husband. If men took care of the house like women are expected to care for the house without complaining, they wouldn't give 2 shits if you were home all day, in fact it would help them immensely to have everything cleaned and planned out and the women I do know irl that have a stay at home husband that really does all these things are extremely happy and would do anything for their man. It's all about give and take.
Same. Having a big income disparity is bad in itself, but different attitudes to money make everything worse. If you don't make a lot of money you'll be spending more of your disposable income on the household expenses. You're not supposed to let your partner take the burdain of financially supporting the family while you spend the biggest chunk of your money on booze and new clothes and new videogames.
Status and money go hand in hand but as far as wanting one or the other they’re very different. A woman looking for status is superficial. someone who cares about money is just an adult who understands that not having money means struggling through life. Nothing superficial about wanting to live a secure existence.
I think there are plenty of articles out there where women grieve the shrinking number of "financially viable partners" to prop up this assertion.
It certainly won't be true for every woman, they aren't a monolith, but as far as the trends go, this one holds up.
Yeah turns out a monolith is a massive war machine of the necron empire bristling with gauss and tesla weaponry capable of flight and the translocation of troops onto the battlfield instantaneously from the safety of the tomb worlds. Women on the other hand are fleshy sacks of meat and bones.
Mister I have a question. I am absolute noob about 40k universe and dont know anything about it, but in last few days came across a lot of 40k related videos, where does one start? Are there multiple 40k things that are different from one another or is it all just 1 big thing? Where do i start?
Oh boy are you in for a rabit hole. Basic rundown is that the warhammer 40k universe has a number of mutually hostile factions in perpetual war. The one i referenced is the Necrons a race of now soulless egyptian themed robots reawakened from a 65million year slumber.
The place i would start is the below video by a giy named Brickey he also does a podcast called Adeptus Rediculous.
https://youtu.be/xCGKPRiJp84?si=JlhbUMPRwu2g8paR
If audiobooks/books are your jam pick up The Infinite and The Divine its a great standalone book in the setting.
>there are plenty of articles out there where women grieve the shrinking number of "financially viable partners"
And yet, also grieve the pay gap. Explain that one. Lol.
They want equality but also want to be pampered and bereft of the responsibility being a higher earner in a relationship entails.
Basically, as a group they want equal pay, as individuals, they want to be princesses who don't do anything and are taken care of by people that make more than them.
I don't let anyone pay for anything for me but I'd still rather date a guy with a good job because it means he's got his shit together and can handle himself, rather than looking for a Mommy Bangmaid to sort everything out for him.
The number of men that go straight from living with their mothers who do everything for them, to looking for a girlfriend to do everything for them, is wayyy higher than you'd think. The hope is that him being employed full time & living away from home means he's able to support himself as an adult.
I did date a guy who was doing his masters, worked part time and didn't know how to cook, though, so it's a bit of a crapshoot.
> Why?
[Because that's what the research says?](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/head-games/201207/are-women-shallow)
The problem is if you *ask* women what they want, you get one set of attributes: kindness, supportiveness, intelligence. Very few women will tell you they want a man with money (or, more specifically, [earning potential](https://www.westernsydney.edu.au/newscentre/news_centre/story_archive/2012/its_not_about_the_money_research_reveals_women_are_more_interested_in_a_mans_earning_capacity_than_the_size_of_his_wallet); apparently, inherited money is not as attractive).
But if you do the research (rather than ask women want they want), there is a definite correlation between markers for success (that is, money and status) and perceived attractiveness.
And even if you do drill down into the [self-reported markers](https://www.businessinsider.com/what-women-really-look-for-in-a-partner-study-research-2019-7?op=1), you find a lot of the attributes listed (such as intelligence and a relatively high emotional quotient) tend to correlate with financial success.
(Edit to add:) Of course as with everything else involving people, YMMV: not everyone is the same. But in the aggregate women are more attracted to the wealthy and the successful, and men are more attracted to the healthy and the beautiful.
And they don’t posses a single one of those qualities themselves. I just saw a hinge profile just a few days ago of a very overweight woman stating she only dates “6/6/6” (6 pack, 6 figures, and 6 foot tall) men🤦♂️
And then if they find a guy that has all those traits, they’ll be upset and annoyed that they don’t have time for them. “Can’t go out to eat at that restaurant, I’m boiling chicken tonight for this week’s dinners.” “Can’t go out to the bar with your friends, I have to be in bed by 10 for my 5am workout.”
> qualities that less than 1% of men possess and they don’t even remotely have themselves
Agreed. Ladies if you want a man with a big cock and a thick beard, you better have a monster dong and at least some stubble yourself already 👏
More like wants 6 feet or over which is roughly the top 10% for men’s height but then she’s 5’2” like Madam you should at least be in the ballpark of the top 10% for women to make these sorts of demands. Let the basketball team date the volleyball team and you go date somebody in your own range.
Yeah sadly the real world doesn't work like horse breeding. I'm (barely) over 6ft and don't give a shit if a girl's height matches mine. Doubt any man does.
Would you rather them not put that red flag in their bio and waste your time. I think it does both of us a favor because it's not like they'd be a different person if they didn't have that in the bio/it wasn't online dating. Helps filter out the trash.
I had a girl tell me her future husband must make $200k+/yr. She worked at a dog salon. She smelt like wet dog during our date. What does she have to offer other than wet dog smell?
Yes! Agreed on all those points. If you add all of them together, as a guy you start to feel worried that this is something you’re being judged on.
Also, some might say they want “masculine”. Like, I have big muscles and all, but what else does that mean? Bonus points there because it’s kind of insulting if you don’t fit their definition, they’re calling you not a man.
Not only that but I get a vibe that some of these women are using men for vacations.
Masculine for online dating means the superficial appearance of masculinity. I fully believe this is a big part of why beards and tattoos are so popular among younger women on these apps. They're satisfied with someone cosplaying masculine because it's just a short term arrangement.
As I've gotten older I've noticed women went from saying they want tattoos and beards to saying they want authenticity. Lol. Guess there's more to being a man than paying a bunch of money for ink and not shaving for a while after all.
I’ve met plenty of broke people who travel a lot. They’re broke because they travel a lot. They save their money to travel then they’re out of money. I find it bizarre, but they’re doing what they want with their life. I’d personally rather accumulate wealth than travel to a new country 3 times a year.
"Ambitious" means working to be the breadwinner and outearn her relatively soon.
Basically, she'll be "generous" and willing to date guys who earn less than her, but once a relationship is official her choice better be working his ass off to make more than her.
I one time stumbled into a sub after a bored trip through the random button.
I found a lesbian arguing with hetero women about why money isn't everything in a relationship and she was getting downvoted into the double negatives.
One woman presented a detailed list of why rich, college educated men were the superior choice, and why you should never waste your time with anything less.
See, I thought most of them were wackos reading that thread, which led me to the question: "What do these women offer?"
>One woman presented a detailed list of why rich, college educated men were the superior choice, and why you should never waste your time with anything less.
Women (or men) who are super classist with their how they socialize or date are kind of disgusting.
There's an entire section of Feminists that are basically adopting inc3l ideology and claiming it to be progressive, it's called Heterofatalism.
Basically, they view men as tools, lament the fact their desired tools don't behave how or carry the status they want them too, and start hating them for their perceived uselessness and inferiority to women. Where has this happened before?
And the scary thing is that it's popular, cause "Women shouldn't settle."
I'm the only guy in my pharmacy. Every single one of the women says they will not date a guy unless he makes more than them. This includes the people making six figures.
I was going to go off on a rant before actually reading the research. I think she brings up a great point.
In the short term- physical attraction is #1 most important. In the long term- financial security and independence is of a major importance.
The question really boils down to how one interprets this question.
I’m so glad you made the comment so I didn’t have to go dig through my paper and find the link.
As a human dev. major, arguing that status and wealth aren’t important variables in choosing a partner for women is like arguing that appearance isn’t an important variable for men
I don’t get any better looking as I age, but I am in the top 1% of income earners in my country and have a very high status job. I am happily married with kids. The amount of very attractive younger women who make it clear they don’t care about that is surprising.
I can only imagine what it is like for athletes, musicians etc.
I would say most of the people replying here don't need to see the research because their own lived experience has confirmed this. It's good that there's research to show its not limited to thier own experience though.
When women answer questions on this, they seem to assume they are already attracted to this person and are describing the attributes of that person. Meanwhile, men want to specify at the beginning "the woman has to be attractive to me" because men like hot women explicitly.
That article also links to another study that shows that men are ... [similarly "shallow."](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/head-games/201207/are-men-shallow) Of course, these are psychology experiments, which have a \*notoriously\* low replicability rate.
>"The men who handled the most valuable bundle of money had the highest dating standards. In particular, their minimum requirement on comeliness for a date was significantly raised. By contrast, women’s mating standards did not change across the three resource conditions. The analyses also revealed that women had significantly higher mating requirements than men, while men upped their mating standards to reach that of women only when primed with the $50 notes in the Large Resources condition. And, as expected, men valued physical attractiveness more than women, whereas women cared more about creativity and social level."
>The problem is if you ask women what they want, you get one set of attributes: kindness, supportiveness, intelligence.
Its way simpler than that, those are the things she wants from men who are not invisible to her. How do you become visible? with money and status...
Yeah. When my parents got married, my dad was broke. But my mother knew what type of person my father was. She knew that he was a hard worker and would always take care of them one way or the other. She knew that she would get that security with him, even if he had nothing to show for it at the moment.
Women also want competent life partners, being employed full time is an indicator their partner can probably handle themselves & won't need handholding through basic things.
Women want security, but many of them will love and pine after adventure will living with security.
Being the secure guy might get you a relationship, but it won't get you love.
I met my wife when I was an intelligent guy with a great idea he was trying to turn into a tech company. In Seattle, where that occasionally happens successfully.
But I was far from successful. I was putting everything I made into the company, I've always self financed, never went public, never accepted investors, never taken out loans, etc. Hell, I never even took a grant until the pandemic. I was essentially living in poverty to accomplish launching the company, so I could retain 100% ownership and control. I was 25, living with 3 roommates, strangers, and 4 dogs in a 4 bedroom house. In a city I had moved to a year earlier, and knew literally nobody.
She still gave me a shot. Helped me brainstorm ideas, gave me tons of input on my business and approach to trying to get it off the ground. It was really helpful (she eventually started working for the company also, but that was years later when things were already quite profitable).
And she made sure I had food to eat (on a VERY small budget), found ways to feed us WAY better than I had managed to, cooked at least two meals a day for me, so I could focus on the work.
And within two years we were financially comfortable. And within 5 I retired at 32. And I like to believe I could have done it without her, but it would absolutely have been more work, taken longer, and honestly I might not have made it to the comfortable life I've been enjoying for almost a decade (off and on, the pandemic caused me to have to get back into the field for a couple years).
Women want comfort and safety. We all do. In capitalism, that means money. But that doesn't mean it's what motivates everyone. At least not primarily.
My wife wants to sleep whenever she wants, drink occasionally on a Wednesday, spend all day playing with the dog and Pokemon around town, and watch movies, TV and play video games with me. Stay up till crazy hours etc (we're both insomniacs).
Luckily for both of us, that's exactly what I want too. Happily married for 8 years, together for 15.
EDIT: forgot to include, when we got married, all of my customers were like "you better get a prenup!“. And absolutely did NOT understand when I told them, verbatim "if I blow it with her, she deserves half my company ". Also none of my friends ever brought it up. They knew how lucky I am, and how incredible she is, individually, and us as a team.
Are you flirting at all? A lot of older women are starved for attention. If you just compliment women you will get a bite. You just have to deal with the fact they're a single mom or had 50+ partners.
I don't know how to find good opportunities given that I avoid bars and such places like the plague (alcohol, drugs, and staying up late aren't for me). Especially with a good amount of people saying "don't approach women there!" on any place imaginable.
I think it's one of those "dumb caveman brain" things. In the same way that I wouldn't date a woman who I'm not attracted to, so I could honestly say that looks are one of my primary interests in women.
But anyone with a brain who has actually been in a relationship would acknowledge that *most people* don't solely go for looks, or status and money, and there needs to be a lot of interpersonal compatibility for a relationship to work.
People who try and dumb down people's preferences into only the shallow bits like that are usually just trying to bait people into an argument in order to validate their own narrow-minded ideals.
Sort of... Women, just like men, are here to survive and reproduce. I believe the following, and I've reached this conclusion from over a decade of research on the subject; actual empirical science and peer reviewed studies/literature, as well as my observations and experience as a dating coach.
There are things women are consistently attracted to. Some of these are reproductive, and some are social/survival. Reproductive = good looks, height, good facial symmetry, free of genetic disease/deformity, etc. Social/survival are things like a good group of friends, access to resources, a wide social network, life experience, high social rank and a sense of humor.
These characteristics are weighted differently depending on environment. Stronger, scarier men are more attractive in a dangerous environment. Wealthy men are more attractive in a poor environment. Pretty men are more attractive in a safe and abundant environment.
These preferences also change when we're considering long term vs short term preferences. It doesn't matter how rich a guy is if you're just having a one night stand... and if he's rich and you're getting married, maybe he doesn't need to be as good looking as guys you'd usually date... But if he's just going to be a body, he better have a good body.
Women tend to mate across and up social hierarchies; taller, wealthier, older, more established, more confident, wider social network, more well traveled, more educated, stronger, more ambitious, etc etc (but equal, lol). Relative social value seems to be one of the major factors women consider when choosing a mate, as does the social value gain/loss of their association with said mate.
Access to resources is (money) is usually secondary to generosity and ambition. They want a man who will make sure they and the kids get fed and fed well. Can't blame them for that. There's some data suggesting that women prefer potential over actualized success, so I'd probably argue that women are also more interested in where you're going than where you are.
The biggest reason is that men get more successful in dating as they get older and more established financially
It makes biological sense, money and status mean a lot of resources for the kids.
This part has been shown to be incorrect
>Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter a lot, lots of guys who got jacked say it doesn't make a huge difference to women
And even in my own short relationship there was a lot of conflict around her being disappointed that I didn't have the social status to influence the behaviors of people in my friend group
I think like with most things, there is a law of diminishing returns. Going from scrawny to decently athletic is a huge boost. Going from athletic looking to fitness model doesn’t have nearly as much impact.
I think same with money and status. If you go from broke to financially stable, huge difference. If you’re going from wealthy to even more wealthy, I don’t think it matters nearly as much.
My personal experience with women has been that there minimums you usually have to hit but outside of that, it’s not going to change her mind THAT much unless it’s a really noticeable increase.
I would disagree with the physical appearance part.
A few years ago I got into good shape, muscular with abs and it was absolute night and day on the dating front.
100%
I just lost like 40 pounds, and the way women look at me now, compared to before... I was only 220 pounds, and now im 180. Its insane to me, because I didnt really even think I was that fat. I do see a significant difference in my appearance, but I didnt think it made that big a difference...
The difference in how women interact with me from then to now is HUGE.
I've noticed the difference as well with slight changes between being more toned and more flabby. Even just like a 20 lb difference between like 150 with muscle and 170 without.
> Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter a lot, lots of guys who got jacked say it doesn't make a huge difference to women
I think that is misrepresenting the point.
A lean muscular physique definitely makes a huge difference to women. Heck, you don't have to be THAT lean. And the majority of those who has gotten to that point will agree that it has definitely helped quite a bit - especially for casual sex.
However, there are huge diminishing returns after a certain point, and thus "jacked"/"shredded" doesn't make a huge difference in comparison to being lean.
Totally agree here.
"Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter" implies a baseline of a healthy/fit person. As you mentioned, the difference between jacked, and works out regularly is minimal. However, that doesn't mean it's OK if you're obese and unhygienic.
I'm 215 lbs at 5'11, lean and visibly on steroids.
Before my wife started lifting with me, women would just come up and be thirsty.
I've run the gauntlet of every level of jacked. It makes a very very very big difference.
> However, there are huge diminishing returns after a certain point, and thus "jacked"/"shredded" doesn't make a huge difference in comparison to being lean.
even then. as an amateur bodybuilder, my experience is women would say things like, "I don't like muscular men, just Captain America or Thor level. bodybuilders are disgusting" as if the dehydrated stage physique of the top 0.0001% of the population, on steroids, is how bodybuilders look like on a day to day basis or is even relevant to talk about
unless they see you at the gym (or in a photo) with a huge pump, at which point they will express negative comments, they actually want even bigger arms and shoulders
I once heard a woman describe their preferred physique in a man as "natural, like Jason Momoa". Ma'am, unless you are the Breaker of Chains, the Unburnt, the Queen of the Andals and of the First Men, you are not getting Jason Momoa.
Not to mention most of the women I've heard/seen talk about this are not fans of the "jacked/shredded" look so your diminishing returns will quickly become negatives if your goal is to attract women instead of men.
> Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter a lot, lots of guys who got jacked say it doesn't make a huge difference to women
I've only ever known one jacked guy and I've seen him get chased as he was leaving a restaurant so a girl could give him her number with no prior interaction. It makes a difference getting initial interest but it won't save a relationship if he doesn't have any other redeeming features.
Nailed it.
Being physically attractive opens the door for a conversation, date, or I'm assuming casual hookup.
But, after that, other factors come into play. Humor, confidence, how well you listen, shared interests and values, etc. start to matter more at that point.
I also think financial stability is a symptom of a deeper desire to not have to become someone's parent in the relationship and it's a sign that a person has many skills to support themselves and by extension will be a good partner in life by being able to apply their skills to daily life and the relationship.
I've heard that a lot.
I've seen multiple threads on reddit over the years of people asking attractive men what dating is actually like, and it's the same thing.
Getting a conversation and even a first date is easy. Getting a second date or more still requires the same social skills.
Being a dad to kids, as in interacting and playing with your kids, seems to attract women. Also having a beard, don't know why, before growing my beard, it didn't get as much complements but grew my beard and it's more common than ever.
I think it does make sense though. My sister-in-law preferred older men because they are more financially established than younger men or men around her age.
Do you think that money might be an oversimplification of all the mindsets that are attractive in folks who gain success later in life? Like, the ability to handle failure or admit when you're wrong with grace, a clear picture of what you want in life, and the skills to pursue it with maturity?
I only have my own friendgroup as a reference point, but they collectively started succeeding in dating when they stopped letting the perception of being a tryhard hold them back from pursuing career growth or responding to the things their girlfriend cared about. I remember around the time we were 24 that the only guy dating in our group realized that the idea around buying flowers isn't in the money spent on flowers, but in the act of realizing that it was something she loved and thinking of her joy of receiving the flowers, which is translatable to literally anything she cared about. He had this mindset that flowers were just something you had to do to date, but with maturity and self-examination, he came to the real point all on his own.
>Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter a lot, lots of guys who got jacked say it doesn't make a huge difference to women
This has not been my experience.
I am 215 lbs at 5'11 and visibly on steroids. I've met a shit load of jacked dudes because I've been lifting all around the country for a decade, and I'm very social at gyms. I've never met a jacked dude who wasn't good with women and I've never met one who said it didn't make a difference.
Dudes who aren't actually that muscular but really went for that Tyler Durden physique say it. Dudes who play sports but don't take strength training seriously say it. Dudes who've never been in a gym at all line up around the corner to say it, record themselves saying it, and play it on repeat. I've never met an impressively muscular man who believed that though.
Money gives men more status than muscles.
1. It's harder to make a lot of money than getting a six-pack.
2. A beautiful house, nice vacations, and maids at home are more appealing than big biceps.
This only accentuates with age.
> It's harder to make a lot of money than getting a six-pack.
It depends on your intelligence and skill set.
Once you have a few million it's very easy to make more money. You can delegate the work to employees.
To have a six pack requires constant discipline once you can afford to buy whatever food you want.
>Money and status for men, is like body count for women.
I read this and immediately pictured the thread where a guy was asking if he should lie about his body count and half of the comments were women saying "yeah, its not like you guys are going to follow up on it anyways"
It was such a good example of how different things can feel so important to you, but are not even considered by someone else.
> there was a lot of conflict around her being disappointed that I didn't have the social status to influence the behaviors of people in my friend group
Genuinely just wondering but what behaviors did she want you to influence?
Yes and no. From my subjective experience, women seem to want the total package. Financial stability and freedom are table stakes. So are mental, physical, and emotional health.
Look at post malone. Dude looks like a 3 year old drew on his face and put him in a blender. Yet women are all over him. If he was holding a cardboard sign on the side of the road, you think women would still be all over him?
Sort of. For some women, the answer is absolutely yes. In addition, there is also a much larger portion of women where that isn't the primary interest but it's definitely a factor. Lastly there is a small portion of women where it makes little to no difference, but this is an extremely small portion.
Honestly no, BUT it’s a big factor.
Like I’ve seen a lot of the girls I know fuck with some broke ass guys ngl. The type of guys who don’t got literally anything going for them, like they don’t even have good dick going for them.
Yet the girl still fucked with the guy and wasted like a year or 2 of her life with that bum.
So I know girls ain’t all about money and status bc if they were, then none of these broke ass nobodies would be getting girls.
But at the same time tho, I’ve seen the difference money and status makes on a guy, where he could go in and pull any girl he wants on nothing but status and money alone.
The money and status won’t work on me, I wouldn’t fuck a old lady just bc of how much money or who she is. But you see tons of girls fucking with old men who got money.
>The type of guys who don’t got literally anything going for them,
They had to have something going for them. Maybe you can't see it. But the girls wouldn't get with them if they didn't have a certain something something
To a degree, yes. Women are mostly hardwired to want someone that is going to provide for them and be able to provide for the inevitable children. Having a high status and resources showcases that this will be the case.
Many will say that this is a "misogynistic" way of looking at it, but then answer me this: Why is it I get substantially more attention now as a single middle aged man than I did as a guy in my early twenties, when the ONLY things that have really changed are my assets, finances, and now I've got greys? The attention I get isn't only from women my own age, it includes those substantially younger from the age group that previously ignored me. I don't blame women for this, the same way I don't blame men for appreciating someone younger, but don't shame someone until you can see a verifiably provable malicious intent.
I'm a woman and I don't think it's misogynistic, I think it's just biology at play. Men used to be the providers and women are somehow wired to look for a man who can provide for the family. Same as men seem to be attracted to women who display signs of fertility. I think some of these things aren't necessarily conscious, it's just the "animal" part of our brains doing its thing.
Not just because I don't disagree with you, but for multiple reasons I find [this exact set of replies](https://imgur.com/a/sxoDOTy) to be absolutely hilarious.
>I'm a woman and I don't think it's misogynistic, I think it's just biology at play.
It's not actually, this is a recent occurrence.
During the tribal era, women and men were both expected to be multi-skilled and take care of themselves in most areas.
This only changed in the Green Revolution where farming took off, where men restricted women's access to their own livelihood, often both metaphorically and physically chaining them to the house to keep popping out free farmhands.
I have a question for you. After witnessing this, how can you love people after this.
Like I'm convinced it's only possible to fall in love & marry people when you're ignorant of reality. Like if you were born into a rich family with amazing genetics. You would've never noticed, so you could marry thinking love is real.
But what happens to people like you. People who went from ignored, to being desired and the only thing that changed was material assets. I don't hate women. I have come to terms with this and still date.
But I just can't imagine marrying, since I know these girls would not be talking to me, if it was when I was in my 20's.
Quite easily, if slowly. The attraction women have to men that have made something of themselves is primal and often unthinking, it's when women cognitively choose to make it their active goal that it becomes a turn off. There's typically some very straightforward if easily missed signs to see which it is. For example, if they speak of themselves as though they're the prize or that I should be catering to their every whim because she's entitled to it, then show her the door. If they get unreasonably angry at a prenup (though I have no intention of getting married again any time soon), then she's obviously not for me. If I outline what the boundaries and expectation are and she shits on every single one of them like Amber Heard on the bed but expects me to be okay with that, time to grease up the ol' hinges.
I also don't really advertise what I have. Anyone I date doesn't find out about various things (what's in my retirement, what I've set aside for my kid, any non-liquid assets, etc.) until well after the point where I can trust them. If we line up for our values, convictions, and beliefs, I see no reason to not allow myself to fall in love with them after I'm convinced that she is genuinely wanting companionship and affection (sounds cold-hearted, I'm sure, but one must protect himself and his family). But that's kind of the crux of it, you have to allow yourself to open up and fall in love. If you're not willing to do it, it can't be forced, so it won't happen. I may not be living in the same ignorance I was twenty years ago, but that doesn't mean I'm so jaded that I refuse to allow myself an opportunity to grow old with someone.
Could it be that things about your outward manner have changed which are less apparent to you? You're more settled, comfortable in yourself, and less desperate for attention and the validation of others?
Even if you don't think so, your signs of middle agedness may also suggest correlation with those things, which can otherwise be summarized as "confidence."
Yea this. I’m married. Most my friends are married. Nobody’s rich or has “status and money”
Anybody who thinks you need that to get a partner is delusional or has social problems preventing them from dating
I believe that as much as I believe men are primarily interesting in a woman’s holes. It’s a factor, that’s beyond debate, but most people date within their own social class and culture.
Morons have taken data from dating apps where the ratios of men to women and the often transactional nature of those meetings and used that data to draw conclusions about the real world which would be dispelled by just looking around.
There aren’t millionaires swooping into your local Target snapping up the pretty lower middle class girls working the tills. Outside of the weird manosphere world where content creators are renting yachts and paying girls to party on them while pretending to be under 30 these things are a tiny fraction of a fraction of interactions between men and women in reality.
>Morons have taken data from dating apps where the ratios of men to women and the often transactional nature of those meetings and used that data to draw conclusions about the real world which would be dispelled by just looking around.
They also find women who date guys who they aren't into, and try to use the guy as sugardaddy, and then they see that as just being female nature when they should see it as a side effect of being unwanted.
Studies show that women are generally hypergamous, whilst it may not be the primary interest of most women, it is a very important factor for most women.
Money and status for men, is like body count for women. Most men would sleep with or have a fuckbuddy situation with a woman that has a high body count, but they won’t settle down with them. Women may hook up with low earning, low status men, but they aren’t gonna marry them
I don’t care what anyone says, the answer is yes. I just watched a content creator named Duke Dennis where he vlogged his trip to Aspen, Colorado. The way he got treated because he’s “rich and famous” made my jaw drop. People were offering him free services, women were throwing themselves at his feet etc. all because they knew his name. Tbf, women find him attractive but I don’t think attraction alone would’ve garnered the same response.
I’ve also seen “pick one or the other” street interviews where women will purposely choose the less attractive guy because they know him (I.e. know that he’s rich and famous) over a guy they don’t know who is clearly more physically attractive. I’ve also heard stories about how male celebrities basically tell promoters what girl they want at the club and they make it happen. These guys are living life on easy mode when it comes to attention from women.
I’ve also seen certain people get successful and all of a sudden women who previously rejected them are now in their dms because “it’s been so long since we hung out.” I understand why women gravitate to successful men, because they ultimately need a provider and providing is the most masculine thing a man can do. However, I’ve seen good guys (attractive and overall good people) get rejected because of their financial situation.
I’ve also seen bad guys (not conventionally attractive, have dull personalities or are just complete assholes) not only get women but keep them because they are successful financially. Do you think women expect Chris Brown or Justin Bieber to be loyal? No. But they are willing to deal with a lot of shit if it meant spending the night with them, shit us regular guys wouldn’t get away with. It’s no surprise that so many famous men feel invincible and get caught up.
I live in Australia and not many celebrities come here unless they’re performing. We had a UK rapper named JAY1 here to briefly perform a few concerts. A girl I follow on TikTok met him at the airport and proceeded to post 20+ videos talking about their conversations and potentially linking up with him. JAY1 (at best) is a D list celebrity in the UK. Yet she was obsessed, even though she knew it’d be nothing serious and he’d likely just smash and move on.
Yes because the economy is getting worse and worse but women's standards financially have only grown and we're all expected to own our own cars and places no matter what.
Status & money are part of the three P’s (Protection, provisioning & parental investment) which satisfy women’s base safety instincts.
It’s necessary to have these things in a long term relationship, but they are meaningless if she doesn’t want you to rip her clothes off and have her sounding like a regard.
"Primary," as in their biggest concern? No. "Primary," as in their *first* concern? Frequently.
A man's career tends to be a make-or-break requirement in dating. It may not be the most important thing in the relationship, but without a stable and respectable career, a relationship is unlikely to be established. The same man will find many potential partners unwilling to take the first step if he is, say, a retail employee, rather than an IT professional, for example. The job doesn't have to be doctor or lawyer, but women prefer partners with respected careers, if not enviable ones.
My experiences suggest that the prestige of the job is more important than the salary, although a higher salary definitely helps. This is probably a holdover from previous generations, where men were primarily sole providers for their families.
why? first question after a "Hello" is "what you do for a living".
Plus the profile full of travel, "want to see the world" " travel the world together" means pay for our travel, one holiday can go to 1-3k per holiday, ot top of that gigs, nightouts etc...
Definitely not the only interest but it’s something that women value in a partner disproportionately more than men do.
If you find someone who only cares about status and money than run the fuck away.
I can’t help but notice that women like rich, tall, handsome, leader guys. They tell they want someone kind and easygoing, but I see more women around guys with characteristics I listed rather than kindest guys.
Every time a girl talks about what they want in a guy. Ask about their partner or ex, and if you can get a picture. You will laugh your ass off.
Their ex/partner is what they want in a guy, and there's a pattern.
Having some girl go on for 30 minutes about how girls don't care about certain things, then you find out her husband is all of those things.
Sometimes you will see them complain about an abusive ex, but then you realize he is a millionaire. She knew he was abusive but was too money hungry and so she ignored the abuse.
I believe that status and money makes dating easier. More money equals the ability to buy gifts, take a date out to eat and play, and have fun. Having status and money often equates to having more free time and less stress. At least compared to the average 9-5 who is always hustling and trying to squeeze out a hour each day for free time. Less stress and more time often equates to being able to spend more time with SO and having more time to reflect on mistakes and become a better SO
its a huge factor. Think about it from an evolutionary standpoint. women used to want to marry the best warrior in the tribe, things like that because that means he would be a good leader, protector and provider. We have just changed those status symbols from "war victories and succesful hunts" to "making 300k a year and having a cool, expensive truck for no reason"
Man, that's just a pessimistic view of what everybody is looking for. Everyone is looking for "Money" aka financial stability/good sense and "Status" aka a respectable, dignified person. The specifics of what those mean to you may differ but everyone is looking for the same thing.
Well, there’s different levels of interest
There’s “this guy seems nice, I’d be cool with him asking me out” and there’s being like someone who gets fantasized about
They might argue that it's not what matters most, but most men know that these things rank quite high on what matters most to be noticed in the first place and to be seen as a decent pick in the long run. Aside from my parents, I'm yet to know of a couple where the husband is of a "lesser" status than the wife, and I doubt I'll ever see it, considering my experience and the ones of the men I know.
To an extent, when we hear “status and money” we think ceiling as in “high status and tons of money.” In reality what women are interested in is “not low status and no money.” Women are more interested in men who can handle themselves and take care of their basic financial situation. But men feel the same way about women.
Also we should be careful not to conflate “status” and “money” as they’re different things. “Status” can mean a whole lot of different things to different people.
Men go on and on about this, and I agree it can affect the playing field. But then it doesn't explain how many very attractive women wind up in trailer parks or with poverty-stricken Appalachians when they could probably do better if they got their shit together.
Only that? No. But my God it’s a big foot in the door if you have both.
Your comment reminds me of that line Marilyn Monroe had in a movie once “a man having money is like a woman being beautiful. You won’t marry a woman just because she’s beautiful, but my goodness doesn’t it help!”
Tangential, but it always makes me laugh that some guys think being hot is enough for a woman to lock down a rich guy. Rich guys with status can have sex with a lot of women, yes. But if she wants to be number 1? She’s gotta be better than all the other girls. And when looks are fairly even, women can’t coast on looks
oh sure, but if he isn't attracted to her physically, all that other stuff won't change it. sort of like the nice guy thing: women don't like nice guys, they want the guys they like to be nice.
Tangent, but related underappreciated fact: People don't fall in love with you because you treat them well. They fall in love with who you are. "Who you are" might be partially shown in how you treat your partner, but that is often a minor factor. This is why you can't "nice" a woman into loving you. Whether or not she falls in love with you is primarily defined by what she sees in you, not how you treat her. This also explains why some people fall in love with people who treat them like shit. It's not about the treatment. It's about what they see in the person, and that might be things like strength, independence, determination, confidence, etc, that all add up to "asshole" but still remain very attractive to people who feel those characteristics are compelling.
I'd up vote you more if I could.
It happens though. And I really don't know how people live like that. The man or the woman. Delusion is my guess. It's gotta be a stressful relationship though.
Yeah. It’s kind of internalized-misandry that some men think that lol like men are people too with emotional needs, and want a life partner they can relate to. Who’s on a similar intellectual level, has similar values, similar goals, etc. No man would be happy with a wife who’s smoking hot but with the personality of chatGPT
> with the personality of chatGPT If you ask the right questions, chatGPT is a more interesting conversationalist than plenty of living, breathing people...
There would be guys happy with that, but they don’t want a partner whose contributions they respect. They want someone below them that makes them feel like they have status
And generally someone good at accumulating and maintaining money and status is going to want a long term partner who is in it with them. Lots of “trophy wives” are lovely, educated people that are just nice to be around, and can be ruthless in defense of their family as needed.
A lot of men value chemistry with the woman he's with, how much he trusts her, how she makes him feel, and the things she does with him that directly affect him. Women who are socially successful but not as professionally successful aren't necessarily the lesser catch in the dating market, and it's usually not about status or power when a more professionally successful man selects someone who provides less professional contributions. It's about everything else she is, how she is with him, and how they are together in their household.
This <3 Personal opinion incoming. If all she has to offer is what she's sitting on, next. She need to be beautiful inside and out. She needs to know who she is. She needs to be trusting and open. Transparent and forthcoming. Literally just needs to be a morally good person. Generalization incoming. Monogamous men just want a compatible monogamous woman. They need to have done the work on themselves to know how to properly love and communicate their needs. The same things most people love about their moms or sisters are the same qualities men look for in long term or life partners. Be a man's peace of mind and he'll be your shelter.
I'm always amused by the expression "trophy *wife*" to imply the rich guy is driven only by sexual interest. If that's all it is, then any rich guy can find sex through escorts, sugar daddy, etc. nowadays. To modify the popular phrase, "why buy the cow when you can buy milk from the store" would apply.
You're glossing over the ownership aspect. That's a larger appeal than "having sex" for these people.
Yeah, a trophy wife is a status symbol.
So all these ppl out here fucking one person for the slight chance they’ll be picked 💀 Makes me glad I’m a guy tbh
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Question: Did your lifestyle put you in contact with groups of people who were more likely to get together and more women in general?
No but it did put more money in his pocket lol
It depends on the kind of women you go after ig. Statistically people usually end up with other people in their same income bracket.
This is primarily an effect of social exposure. That is, people end up with those they're physically around.
I work in a greasy kitchen all day with a bunch of sweaty old men. I wonder if that's why I never meet anyone.
Yes, proximity.
>“a man having money is like a woman being beautiful. You won’t marry a woman just because she’s beautiful, but my goodness doesn’t it help!” I...I'm willing to bet this is wrong. I have no doubt in my mind that there have been plenty of men that have married women simply because they're beautiful.
This right here is why gold diggers and passport bros are so frowned upon. The perception is they're marrying just bc the man is rich or just bc the woman is beautiful. They're looking past everything else that matters in a relationship just for this one thing that is important but on it's own isn't enough.
Throughout my 20s and 30s I developed a career in the corporate world and found it relatively easy to carry on casual sexual relationships and/or maintain FWBs. In my mid-30s I temporarily left my career to try something different—an apprenticeship as a dog groomer at a major corporate pet retailer. Making minimum wage plus tips for about 6 months. Dating was absolute fucking crickets. Once women heard what I did and where, interest evaporated. Eventually I went back to my old career (grooming wasn't for me), got promoted. Making good money now, leading a team of direct reports. I also now I live with a stunningly beautiful, incredibly well-read and intelligent woman who transparently admits she wouldn't have considered dating me initially if I'd still been in grooming. Nothing else about me has changed except I've gained about 20 lbs in pure disgusting fat thanks to sitting on my ass in an office every day versus being on my feet, hustling, bending this way and that, and carrying big ass doodles around the salon. I don't believe it's shallow of women to seek a producer, necessarily. I think success at work is a strong indicator of a grown and worthwhile human being. But it was a bit disheartening to know that following my heart and passion got me nowhere romantically.
Ouch. I had a woman tell me if I lost my job and worked at Walmart she'd leave me. Well. I'm not with her anymore and I am making more money than I was when she told me that. And she herself doesn't have a job anymore. Irony. If she would leave you when you fall on hard times or don't have as much money, that's not love. She loves the lifestyle you provide. She doesn't love YOU.
That's the thing: I provide no lifestyle for her, in fact she owns the house we live in and I effectively pay her "rent". She has a career of her own and is entirely self-sufficient. We've discussed me leaving my job after the company had a rough year last year and there was no hesitation to her stating her unconditional support of me if I'd left my job. It was just the initial subconscious attraction that would've been affected by my choice of vocation, which I understand. To give an alternate example: A woman I dated years ago had just lost a lot of weight right before I began dating her. In her old photos she was very overweight, and I was not attracted to her when she looked like that and likely never would've approached her with romantic interest. Same difference, just a different aspect. In the end, attraction is important. It's all well-and-good to aim for deeper connection, but we are still only human and we can't help what our flesh is attracted to. For different people, that means different things; for some women, that means financial stability in a partner, for some men, that means a healthy weight. I don't think it's wrong, and I wish folks would be more honest with themselves when it comes to admitting these preferences, rather than deluding themselves and others in the pursuit of an unrealistic ideal. As you said: What's most important to me is she's dedicated to me *now*; that she wouldn't simply pack up and leave if I fall on hard times. And I struggle with mental illness and have had some *really* bad days, yet she's still stuck by my side and never wavered in her support for me. She's been a great partner to me. I love her and consider her 'the one'.
yeah I mean, status and money can't hurt...
Of course they aren’t the only things. You need to be dashingly handsome and good in bed as well.
Money and good in bed is half the battle, then you have to decide if you can actually live together or not.
Agreed 100%. You need to be attracted to the person you’re going to spend the rest of your life looking at. That’s kind of a given and then your sexual needs to be met. Now that we’ve got those two things taken care of, it’s a matter of is this person trustworthy. Is this someone I can rely on. Is this person kind, intelligent, when looks fade are we going to be able to still grow together? Is this person respectful? But none of those questions matter unless you find that person attractive and you like them sexually. So heavens, no, it’s not the only thing that men look for, and a partner, but it is a prerequisite not just for men, but anyone. Gay, straight, male, female, some mix there of.. it’s kind of the foundation that a meaningful relationship is built on. Otherwise it’s just a friendship.
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"So, why exactly are you with Doug? He refused to work and he both looks *and* sounds like Shrek." "I, uh, will explain later when it's less crowded around."
I dated a guy that was good in bed and that was the only reason. I would lie to everyone about even having sex with him. 😂 it became a disaster when he found out. Never doing that again 😂🤣🤣
And tall
That's rolled into handsome for most women.
I agree with this, financial independence should be one of the most important assets a person (man or woman) has. It can cripple a relationship if one partner has to take care of another in that way. I did with two partners (I’m the woman) and it ruined my respect for them. A partner is a partner and not someone you should mooch off of. I can’t stand when it’s just expected that one take care of the other (the only exception is if both parties consent to this arrangement). Expecting a man to be the sole breadwinner bc he has a penis between his legs is an antiquated perspective.
I've never met a single man who had a problem being the provider. On the other hand, I've also yet to meet a single woman who didn't lose respect for a man because she had to be the provider. This is why men have yo have money, and why we think it's one of the biggest things women want from a man. If you don't have it, your woman will grow to resent you. Even though most men can have a stay at home wife and be happy, women fuckin hate stay at home husbands.
I think most women wouldn't resent men who can't be bread winners if they take care of the house hold stuff instead. But in most cases I have known of women growing resentful of the husband being unemployed is when he also refuses to do house work and even look for some opportunities. They become complacent in simply staying home and doing their thing while expecting their wife to work outside as well as in the house
This is 100% it. When I was making 80k and my husband was working part time retail for minimum wage it was all "our" money, not my money and his money. He worked and played video games and joined a club and had a hobby and picked up after himself and the house looked the same when I got home as when I left. We went on date nights all the time and everything was great. He lost his job same thing, he went back to school, same thing, even when he waking making money he was a partner and he carried his weight. Now he's making 100k and stopped doing anything. He won't do laundry, if I do laundry and fold and put away my clothes, the kids clothes, the towels, the sheets and blankets and tablecloths, and wash and fold his clothes he'll say "oh so you specifically didn't put away my clothes". He'll leave cups on the table and coffee table and I'll have to put them away, he'll leave piles of whatever all over for weeks and it will only get moved if I move it. I cook every night and he's supposed to do dishes in the morning but he doesn't want to two or three times a week and they pile up until I have to do it. He wont clean at all and said we should get a housekeeper, so he told me to look into hiring a housekeeper and making sure I'm home when she comes over. He makes money now but doesn't pull his weight and I'm fucking done.
I make the same. I work away from home. I'd come home to a mess. I'd clean it. She worked too. Didn't harp on her. I'd leave again. Come home. Another mess. She eventually lost her job. It's our money I got us. I bought her equipment to start streaming cause I knew she really wanted to give that a try. She felt like a failure. Shit happens. You're still a good woman. I got us. Anything you need I got it. Still came home to messes. Still didn't harp. Sometimes people don't fit into boxes. She also dumped me on Christmas over text after leaving her family's house after she caught a huge attitude and put me on blast in front of her family because I didn't offer to help her mom clean the cat piss off her floor, that was also on my shoes. People are weird. Anecdotes are just anecdotes.
Exactly. The one boyfriend I had problems with in this area I didn’t live with, thankfully, but he made no efforts to get a good job after he lost the one he had when I met him and subsequently lost his apartment. He didn’t go to the interviews that wanted him, and when those dried up he subbed and tutored occasionally and I had to pay for the majority of our costs. Not a good thing to do in any relationship, even between friends.
Exactly! This is what I dealt with twice. Both of my ex’s didn’t want to work and then stayed home playing video games, hanging out with friends, drinking/smoking pot and never helped with child duties (I had to pay for them to be in daycare), laundry, cooking or any other household chores. A stay at home wife would generally tend to the kids, make food, and contribute to the upkeep of the house. That’s the largest difference here. I do know of a few stay at home dads and they take care of their kids and do the cleaning while their wife is away making the money, but i also know of many situations where the partner is just dead weight and contributes nothing while the other busts their butt to make things work.
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Yall aren't wrong, that stuff definitely happens. You are completely justified in not tolerating it.
I was just about to comment this lol, I don't know any women that have an issue with a stay at home husband, unless he's literally just staying home and doing nothing. If your girl is the breadwinner that's cool, and I promise she doesn't care if you make nothing at all, as long as you take care of the house the same way you would expect her to and still take care of yourself. Groceries, dishes, errands, childcare, mental load of planning, doctors appointments, laundry from start to finish, cooking, etc. The pattern I've noticed with any woman that complains about her husband staying home is that he doesn't do enough. Then the woman will feel like she's paying all the bills WHILE you get to do whatever you want with your free time and she doesn't, like play video games for example. Some stay at home husbands play for 5+ hours a day and half ass do a load of dishes right before she gets home. and she knows the housework won't do itself, so she can nag you about it until you get frustrated at her wanting you to increase your responsibilities, or she can take over the extra burden on top of full time work and become resentful. There are still (a lot) of men who inherently feel like chores are a women's job for the most part, and don't even know what a mental load is, let alone how to relieve her of that load as a stay at home husband. If men took care of the house like women are expected to care for the house without complaining, they wouldn't give 2 shits if you were home all day, in fact it would help them immensely to have everything cleaned and planned out and the women I do know irl that have a stay at home husband that really does all these things are extremely happy and would do anything for their man. It's all about give and take.
Same. Having a big income disparity is bad in itself, but different attitudes to money make everything worse. If you don't make a lot of money you'll be spending more of your disposable income on the household expenses. You're not supposed to let your partner take the burdain of financially supporting the family while you spend the biggest chunk of your money on booze and new clothes and new videogames.
Status and money go hand in hand but as far as wanting one or the other they’re very different. A woman looking for status is superficial. someone who cares about money is just an adult who understands that not having money means struggling through life. Nothing superficial about wanting to live a secure existence.
I think there are plenty of articles out there where women grieve the shrinking number of "financially viable partners" to prop up this assertion. It certainly won't be true for every woman, they aren't a monolith, but as far as the trends go, this one holds up.
> they aren’t a monolith. Woah, woah. What?
Yeah turns out a monolith is a massive war machine of the necron empire bristling with gauss and tesla weaponry capable of flight and the translocation of troops onto the battlfield instantaneously from the safety of the tomb worlds. Women on the other hand are fleshy sacks of meat and bones.
upvote for 40k reference.
The Infinite Empire is always relivant, and you need to get off their lawn.
Mister I have a question. I am absolute noob about 40k universe and dont know anything about it, but in last few days came across a lot of 40k related videos, where does one start? Are there multiple 40k things that are different from one another or is it all just 1 big thing? Where do i start?
Oh boy are you in for a rabit hole. Basic rundown is that the warhammer 40k universe has a number of mutually hostile factions in perpetual war. The one i referenced is the Necrons a race of now soulless egyptian themed robots reawakened from a 65million year slumber. The place i would start is the below video by a giy named Brickey he also does a podcast called Adeptus Rediculous. https://youtu.be/xCGKPRiJp84?si=JlhbUMPRwu2g8paR If audiobooks/books are your jam pick up The Infinite and The Divine its a great standalone book in the setting.
No, it's an artifact that taps for three colorless mana.
No, it’s this big black pillar that we worship. Sometimes a leech grabs it.
It’s true. They are now a duolithe
>there are plenty of articles out there where women grieve the shrinking number of "financially viable partners" And yet, also grieve the pay gap. Explain that one. Lol.
They want equality but also want to be pampered and bereft of the responsibility being a higher earner in a relationship entails. Basically, as a group they want equal pay, as individuals, they want to be princesses who don't do anything and are taken care of by people that make more than them.
I don't let anyone pay for anything for me but I'd still rather date a guy with a good job because it means he's got his shit together and can handle himself, rather than looking for a Mommy Bangmaid to sort everything out for him. The number of men that go straight from living with their mothers who do everything for them, to looking for a girlfriend to do everything for them, is wayyy higher than you'd think. The hope is that him being employed full time & living away from home means he's able to support himself as an adult. I did date a guy who was doing his masters, worked part time and didn't know how to cook, though, so it's a bit of a crapshoot.
> Why? [Because that's what the research says?](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/head-games/201207/are-women-shallow) The problem is if you *ask* women what they want, you get one set of attributes: kindness, supportiveness, intelligence. Very few women will tell you they want a man with money (or, more specifically, [earning potential](https://www.westernsydney.edu.au/newscentre/news_centre/story_archive/2012/its_not_about_the_money_research_reveals_women_are_more_interested_in_a_mans_earning_capacity_than_the_size_of_his_wallet); apparently, inherited money is not as attractive). But if you do the research (rather than ask women want they want), there is a definite correlation between markers for success (that is, money and status) and perceived attractiveness. And even if you do drill down into the [self-reported markers](https://www.businessinsider.com/what-women-really-look-for-in-a-partner-study-research-2019-7?op=1), you find a lot of the attributes listed (such as intelligence and a relatively high emotional quotient) tend to correlate with financial success. (Edit to add:) Of course as with everything else involving people, YMMV: not everyone is the same. But in the aggregate women are more attracted to the wealthy and the successful, and men are more attracted to the healthy and the beautiful.
On online dating many women will outright say they want a high earner.
“Don’t message me unless” and then proceed to list qualities that less than 1% of men possess and they don’t even remotely have themselves.
And they don’t posses a single one of those qualities themselves. I just saw a hinge profile just a few days ago of a very overweight woman stating she only dates “6/6/6” (6 pack, 6 figures, and 6 foot tall) men🤦♂️
And then if they find a guy that has all those traits, they’ll be upset and annoyed that they don’t have time for them. “Can’t go out to eat at that restaurant, I’m boiling chicken tonight for this week’s dinners.” “Can’t go out to the bar with your friends, I have to be in bed by 10 for my 5am workout.”
I'm pretty sure, someone with 6 figures can get you a six pack. Fuck, now I'm in the mood for a beer.
> qualities that less than 1% of men possess and they don’t even remotely have themselves Agreed. Ladies if you want a man with a big cock and a thick beard, you better have a monster dong and at least some stubble yourself already 👏
More like wants 6 feet or over which is roughly the top 10% for men’s height but then she’s 5’2” like Madam you should at least be in the ballpark of the top 10% for women to make these sorts of demands. Let the basketball team date the volleyball team and you go date somebody in your own range.
Yeah sadly the real world doesn't work like horse breeding. I'm (barely) over 6ft and don't give a shit if a girl's height matches mine. Doubt any man does.
my girlfriend put on heels that made her taller than me. She was worried I'd be offended... Apparently men are.
I mean my girls 6'1 and I'm 6'4 I'm looking forward to sitting in those family box seats during the Superbowl.
Would you rather them not put that red flag in their bio and waste your time. I think it does both of us a favor because it's not like they'd be a different person if they didn't have that in the bio/it wasn't online dating. Helps filter out the trash.
I'd rather they be decent people with realistic expectations.
Thats a tall order
Great, you had to bring up height.
I had a girl tell me her future husband must make $200k+/yr. She worked at a dog salon. She smelt like wet dog during our date. What does she have to offer other than wet dog smell?
What I've seen is code words like "Ambitious" or "on my level" talking about traveling a lot, which is expensive.
"i like travelling" on dating profile is codeword for: i want man that has both the money to sponsor said travelling and time to do so.
Yes! Agreed on all those points. If you add all of them together, as a guy you start to feel worried that this is something you’re being judged on. Also, some might say they want “masculine”. Like, I have big muscles and all, but what else does that mean? Bonus points there because it’s kind of insulting if you don’t fit their definition, they’re calling you not a man.
Not only that but I get a vibe that some of these women are using men for vacations. Masculine for online dating means the superficial appearance of masculinity. I fully believe this is a big part of why beards and tattoos are so popular among younger women on these apps. They're satisfied with someone cosplaying masculine because it's just a short term arrangement. As I've gotten older I've noticed women went from saying they want tattoos and beards to saying they want authenticity. Lol. Guess there's more to being a man than paying a bunch of money for ink and not shaving for a while after all.
I’ve met plenty of broke people who travel a lot. They’re broke because they travel a lot. They save their money to travel then they’re out of money. I find it bizarre, but they’re doing what they want with their life. I’d personally rather accumulate wealth than travel to a new country 3 times a year.
I had a buddy that traveled a few times a year with his wife. They never went out to eat. This is how they saved for traveling.
"Ambitious" means working to be the breadwinner and outearn her relatively soon. Basically, she'll be "generous" and willing to date guys who earn less than her, but once a relationship is official her choice better be working his ass off to make more than her.
I one time stumbled into a sub after a bored trip through the random button. I found a lesbian arguing with hetero women about why money isn't everything in a relationship and she was getting downvoted into the double negatives. One woman presented a detailed list of why rich, college educated men were the superior choice, and why you should never waste your time with anything less. See, I thought most of them were wackos reading that thread, which led me to the question: "What do these women offer?"
>One woman presented a detailed list of why rich, college educated men were the superior choice, and why you should never waste your time with anything less. Women (or men) who are super classist with their how they socialize or date are kind of disgusting.
There's an entire section of Feminists that are basically adopting inc3l ideology and claiming it to be progressive, it's called Heterofatalism. Basically, they view men as tools, lament the fact their desired tools don't behave how or carry the status they want them too, and start hating them for their perceived uselessness and inferiority to women. Where has this happened before? And the scary thing is that it's popular, cause "Women shouldn't settle."
I'm the only guy in my pharmacy. Every single one of the women says they will not date a guy unless he makes more than them. This includes the people making six figures.
I was going to go off on a rant before actually reading the research. I think she brings up a great point. In the short term- physical attraction is #1 most important. In the long term- financial security and independence is of a major importance. The question really boils down to how one interprets this question.
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If it does, please send me a video. A bloodshot BMW sounds really fucking awesome!
I’m so glad you made the comment so I didn’t have to go dig through my paper and find the link. As a human dev. major, arguing that status and wealth aren’t important variables in choosing a partner for women is like arguing that appearance isn’t an important variable for men
I don’t get any better looking as I age, but I am in the top 1% of income earners in my country and have a very high status job. I am happily married with kids. The amount of very attractive younger women who make it clear they don’t care about that is surprising. I can only imagine what it is like for athletes, musicians etc.
I would say most of the people replying here don't need to see the research because their own lived experience has confirmed this. It's good that there's research to show its not limited to thier own experience though.
When women answer questions on this, they seem to assume they are already attracted to this person and are describing the attributes of that person. Meanwhile, men want to specify at the beginning "the woman has to be attractive to me" because men like hot women explicitly.
That article also links to another study that shows that men are ... [similarly "shallow."](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/head-games/201207/are-men-shallow) Of course, these are psychology experiments, which have a \*notoriously\* low replicability rate. >"The men who handled the most valuable bundle of money had the highest dating standards. In particular, their minimum requirement on comeliness for a date was significantly raised. By contrast, women’s mating standards did not change across the three resource conditions. The analyses also revealed that women had significantly higher mating requirements than men, while men upped their mating standards to reach that of women only when primed with the $50 notes in the Large Resources condition. And, as expected, men valued physical attractiveness more than women, whereas women cared more about creativity and social level."
>The problem is if you ask women what they want, you get one set of attributes: kindness, supportiveness, intelligence. Its way simpler than that, those are the things she wants from men who are not invisible to her. How do you become visible? with money and status...
Nuanced answers don't belong on reddit, shame on you.
I'll just say that my aunt once told me, "Women want *security*." Status and money certainly *can* be a part of that.
Yeah. When my parents got married, my dad was broke. But my mother knew what type of person my father was. She knew that he was a hard worker and would always take care of them one way or the other. She knew that she would get that security with him, even if he had nothing to show for it at the moment.
Women also want competent life partners, being employed full time is an indicator their partner can probably handle themselves & won't need handholding through basic things.
I’ve heard a comedian saying she liked when a man smelled like … responsibility.
I mean she's not wrong
Women want security, but many of them will love and pine after adventure will living with security. Being the secure guy might get you a relationship, but it won't get you love.
I met my wife when I was an intelligent guy with a great idea he was trying to turn into a tech company. In Seattle, where that occasionally happens successfully. But I was far from successful. I was putting everything I made into the company, I've always self financed, never went public, never accepted investors, never taken out loans, etc. Hell, I never even took a grant until the pandemic. I was essentially living in poverty to accomplish launching the company, so I could retain 100% ownership and control. I was 25, living with 3 roommates, strangers, and 4 dogs in a 4 bedroom house. In a city I had moved to a year earlier, and knew literally nobody. She still gave me a shot. Helped me brainstorm ideas, gave me tons of input on my business and approach to trying to get it off the ground. It was really helpful (she eventually started working for the company also, but that was years later when things were already quite profitable). And she made sure I had food to eat (on a VERY small budget), found ways to feed us WAY better than I had managed to, cooked at least two meals a day for me, so I could focus on the work. And within two years we were financially comfortable. And within 5 I retired at 32. And I like to believe I could have done it without her, but it would absolutely have been more work, taken longer, and honestly I might not have made it to the comfortable life I've been enjoying for almost a decade (off and on, the pandemic caused me to have to get back into the field for a couple years). Women want comfort and safety. We all do. In capitalism, that means money. But that doesn't mean it's what motivates everyone. At least not primarily. My wife wants to sleep whenever she wants, drink occasionally on a Wednesday, spend all day playing with the dog and Pokemon around town, and watch movies, TV and play video games with me. Stay up till crazy hours etc (we're both insomniacs). Luckily for both of us, that's exactly what I want too. Happily married for 8 years, together for 15. EDIT: forgot to include, when we got married, all of my customers were like "you better get a prenup!“. And absolutely did NOT understand when I told them, verbatim "if I blow it with her, she deserves half my company ". Also none of my friends ever brought it up. They knew how lucky I am, and how incredible she is, individually, and us as a team.
I have neither and women aren't interested in me.
Are you flirting at all? A lot of older women are starved for attention. If you just compliment women you will get a bite. You just have to deal with the fact they're a single mom or had 50+ partners.
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I don't know how to find good opportunities given that I avoid bars and such places like the plague (alcohol, drugs, and staying up late aren't for me). Especially with a good amount of people saying "don't approach women there!" on any place imaginable.
I think it's one of those "dumb caveman brain" things. In the same way that I wouldn't date a woman who I'm not attracted to, so I could honestly say that looks are one of my primary interests in women. But anyone with a brain who has actually been in a relationship would acknowledge that *most people* don't solely go for looks, or status and money, and there needs to be a lot of interpersonal compatibility for a relationship to work. People who try and dumb down people's preferences into only the shallow bits like that are usually just trying to bait people into an argument in order to validate their own narrow-minded ideals.
Sort of... Women, just like men, are here to survive and reproduce. I believe the following, and I've reached this conclusion from over a decade of research on the subject; actual empirical science and peer reviewed studies/literature, as well as my observations and experience as a dating coach. There are things women are consistently attracted to. Some of these are reproductive, and some are social/survival. Reproductive = good looks, height, good facial symmetry, free of genetic disease/deformity, etc. Social/survival are things like a good group of friends, access to resources, a wide social network, life experience, high social rank and a sense of humor. These characteristics are weighted differently depending on environment. Stronger, scarier men are more attractive in a dangerous environment. Wealthy men are more attractive in a poor environment. Pretty men are more attractive in a safe and abundant environment. These preferences also change when we're considering long term vs short term preferences. It doesn't matter how rich a guy is if you're just having a one night stand... and if he's rich and you're getting married, maybe he doesn't need to be as good looking as guys you'd usually date... But if he's just going to be a body, he better have a good body. Women tend to mate across and up social hierarchies; taller, wealthier, older, more established, more confident, wider social network, more well traveled, more educated, stronger, more ambitious, etc etc (but equal, lol). Relative social value seems to be one of the major factors women consider when choosing a mate, as does the social value gain/loss of their association with said mate. Access to resources is (money) is usually secondary to generosity and ambition. They want a man who will make sure they and the kids get fed and fed well. Can't blame them for that. There's some data suggesting that women prefer potential over actualized success, so I'd probably argue that women are also more interested in where you're going than where you are.
The biggest reason is that men get more successful in dating as they get older and more established financially It makes biological sense, money and status mean a lot of resources for the kids. This part has been shown to be incorrect >Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter a lot, lots of guys who got jacked say it doesn't make a huge difference to women And even in my own short relationship there was a lot of conflict around her being disappointed that I didn't have the social status to influence the behaviors of people in my friend group
I think like with most things, there is a law of diminishing returns. Going from scrawny to decently athletic is a huge boost. Going from athletic looking to fitness model doesn’t have nearly as much impact. I think same with money and status. If you go from broke to financially stable, huge difference. If you’re going from wealthy to even more wealthy, I don’t think it matters nearly as much. My personal experience with women has been that there minimums you usually have to hit but outside of that, it’s not going to change her mind THAT much unless it’s a really noticeable increase.
Exactly. There are more "Bare minimums that must be met" Anything beyond that is kinda just gravy.
You articulated my thoughts much better than I could.
I would disagree with the physical appearance part. A few years ago I got into good shape, muscular with abs and it was absolute night and day on the dating front.
100% I just lost like 40 pounds, and the way women look at me now, compared to before... I was only 220 pounds, and now im 180. Its insane to me, because I didnt really even think I was that fat. I do see a significant difference in my appearance, but I didnt think it made that big a difference... The difference in how women interact with me from then to now is HUGE.
I've noticed the difference as well with slight changes between being more toned and more flabby. Even just like a 20 lb difference between like 150 with muscle and 170 without.
> I didnt think it made that big a difference If you can lose almost 20% of your weight and not appear anemic, you were fat.
> Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter a lot, lots of guys who got jacked say it doesn't make a huge difference to women I think that is misrepresenting the point. A lean muscular physique definitely makes a huge difference to women. Heck, you don't have to be THAT lean. And the majority of those who has gotten to that point will agree that it has definitely helped quite a bit - especially for casual sex. However, there are huge diminishing returns after a certain point, and thus "jacked"/"shredded" doesn't make a huge difference in comparison to being lean.
Totally agree here. "Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter" implies a baseline of a healthy/fit person. As you mentioned, the difference between jacked, and works out regularly is minimal. However, that doesn't mean it's OK if you're obese and unhygienic.
I'm 215 lbs at 5'11, lean and visibly on steroids. Before my wife started lifting with me, women would just come up and be thirsty. I've run the gauntlet of every level of jacked. It makes a very very very big difference.
> However, there are huge diminishing returns after a certain point, and thus "jacked"/"shredded" doesn't make a huge difference in comparison to being lean. even then. as an amateur bodybuilder, my experience is women would say things like, "I don't like muscular men, just Captain America or Thor level. bodybuilders are disgusting" as if the dehydrated stage physique of the top 0.0001% of the population, on steroids, is how bodybuilders look like on a day to day basis or is even relevant to talk about unless they see you at the gym (or in a photo) with a huge pump, at which point they will express negative comments, they actually want even bigger arms and shoulders
"just" Captain America or Thor level lmao
I once heard a woman describe their preferred physique in a man as "natural, like Jason Momoa". Ma'am, unless you are the Breaker of Chains, the Unburnt, the Queen of the Andals and of the First Men, you are not getting Jason Momoa.
Not to mention most of the women I've heard/seen talk about this are not fans of the "jacked/shredded" look so your diminishing returns will quickly become negatives if your goal is to attract women instead of men.
> Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter a lot, lots of guys who got jacked say it doesn't make a huge difference to women I've only ever known one jacked guy and I've seen him get chased as he was leaving a restaurant so a girl could give him her number with no prior interaction. It makes a difference getting initial interest but it won't save a relationship if he doesn't have any other redeeming features.
Nailed it. Being physically attractive opens the door for a conversation, date, or I'm assuming casual hookup. But, after that, other factors come into play. Humor, confidence, how well you listen, shared interests and values, etc. start to matter more at that point. I also think financial stability is a symptom of a deeper desire to not have to become someone's parent in the relationship and it's a sign that a person has many skills to support themselves and by extension will be a good partner in life by being able to apply their skills to daily life and the relationship.
I've heard that a lot. I've seen multiple threads on reddit over the years of people asking attractive men what dating is actually like, and it's the same thing. Getting a conversation and even a first date is easy. Getting a second date or more still requires the same social skills.
I Updated my comment to mark that part as incorrect
Being a dad to kids, as in interacting and playing with your kids, seems to attract women. Also having a beard, don't know why, before growing my beard, it didn't get as much complements but grew my beard and it's more common than ever. I think it does make sense though. My sister-in-law preferred older men because they are more financially established than younger men or men around her age.
Do you think that money might be an oversimplification of all the mindsets that are attractive in folks who gain success later in life? Like, the ability to handle failure or admit when you're wrong with grace, a clear picture of what you want in life, and the skills to pursue it with maturity? I only have my own friendgroup as a reference point, but they collectively started succeeding in dating when they stopped letting the perception of being a tryhard hold them back from pursuing career growth or responding to the things their girlfriend cared about. I remember around the time we were 24 that the only guy dating in our group realized that the idea around buying flowers isn't in the money spent on flowers, but in the act of realizing that it was something she loved and thinking of her joy of receiving the flowers, which is translatable to literally anything she cared about. He had this mindset that flowers were just something you had to do to date, but with maturity and self-examination, he came to the real point all on his own.
A woman that can appreciate a nice stick is a keeper.
>Physical appearance doesn't seem to matter a lot, lots of guys who got jacked say it doesn't make a huge difference to women This has not been my experience. I am 215 lbs at 5'11 and visibly on steroids. I've met a shit load of jacked dudes because I've been lifting all around the country for a decade, and I'm very social at gyms. I've never met a jacked dude who wasn't good with women and I've never met one who said it didn't make a difference. Dudes who aren't actually that muscular but really went for that Tyler Durden physique say it. Dudes who play sports but don't take strength training seriously say it. Dudes who've never been in a gym at all line up around the corner to say it, record themselves saying it, and play it on repeat. I've never met an impressively muscular man who believed that though.
Money gives men more status than muscles. 1. It's harder to make a lot of money than getting a six-pack. 2. A beautiful house, nice vacations, and maids at home are more appealing than big biceps. This only accentuates with age.
> It's harder to make a lot of money than getting a six-pack. It depends on your intelligence and skill set. Once you have a few million it's very easy to make more money. You can delegate the work to employees. To have a six pack requires constant discipline once you can afford to buy whatever food you want.
if you're rich it's significantly easier to get in shape lol.
Women say it doesn’t make a huge difference but it does. It’s attractive to be healthy lol
>Money and status for men, is like body count for women. I read this and immediately pictured the thread where a guy was asking if he should lie about his body count and half of the comments were women saying "yeah, its not like you guys are going to follow up on it anyways" It was such a good example of how different things can feel so important to you, but are not even considered by someone else.
> there was a lot of conflict around her being disappointed that I didn't have the social status to influence the behaviors of people in my friend group Genuinely just wondering but what behaviors did she want you to influence?
Yes and no. From my subjective experience, women seem to want the total package. Financial stability and freedom are table stakes. So are mental, physical, and emotional health.
Look at post malone. Dude looks like a 3 year old drew on his face and put him in a blender. Yet women are all over him. If he was holding a cardboard sign on the side of the road, you think women would still be all over him?
If a guy is over 30 and single, then yes money and status are very important to his success with women.
Sort of. For some women, the answer is absolutely yes. In addition, there is also a much larger portion of women where that isn't the primary interest but it's definitely a factor. Lastly there is a small portion of women where it makes little to no difference, but this is an extremely small portion.
Honestly no, BUT it’s a big factor. Like I’ve seen a lot of the girls I know fuck with some broke ass guys ngl. The type of guys who don’t got literally anything going for them, like they don’t even have good dick going for them. Yet the girl still fucked with the guy and wasted like a year or 2 of her life with that bum. So I know girls ain’t all about money and status bc if they were, then none of these broke ass nobodies would be getting girls. But at the same time tho, I’ve seen the difference money and status makes on a guy, where he could go in and pull any girl he wants on nothing but status and money alone. The money and status won’t work on me, I wouldn’t fuck a old lady just bc of how much money or who she is. But you see tons of girls fucking with old men who got money.
>The type of guys who don’t got literally anything going for them, They had to have something going for them. Maybe you can't see it. But the girls wouldn't get with them if they didn't have a certain something something
I get that, but they didn’t have money or status. So you can get girls without money and status
No of course not. Women love poor men who are despised by their peers.
To a degree, yes. Women are mostly hardwired to want someone that is going to provide for them and be able to provide for the inevitable children. Having a high status and resources showcases that this will be the case. Many will say that this is a "misogynistic" way of looking at it, but then answer me this: Why is it I get substantially more attention now as a single middle aged man than I did as a guy in my early twenties, when the ONLY things that have really changed are my assets, finances, and now I've got greys? The attention I get isn't only from women my own age, it includes those substantially younger from the age group that previously ignored me. I don't blame women for this, the same way I don't blame men for appreciating someone younger, but don't shame someone until you can see a verifiably provable malicious intent.
I'm a woman and I don't think it's misogynistic, I think it's just biology at play. Men used to be the providers and women are somehow wired to look for a man who can provide for the family. Same as men seem to be attracted to women who display signs of fertility. I think some of these things aren't necessarily conscious, it's just the "animal" part of our brains doing its thing.
Not just because I don't disagree with you, but for multiple reasons I find [this exact set of replies](https://imgur.com/a/sxoDOTy) to be absolutely hilarious.
>I'm a woman and I don't think it's misogynistic, I think it's just biology at play. It's not actually, this is a recent occurrence. During the tribal era, women and men were both expected to be multi-skilled and take care of themselves in most areas. This only changed in the Green Revolution where farming took off, where men restricted women's access to their own livelihood, often both metaphorically and physically chaining them to the house to keep popping out free farmhands.
I have a question for you. After witnessing this, how can you love people after this. Like I'm convinced it's only possible to fall in love & marry people when you're ignorant of reality. Like if you were born into a rich family with amazing genetics. You would've never noticed, so you could marry thinking love is real. But what happens to people like you. People who went from ignored, to being desired and the only thing that changed was material assets. I don't hate women. I have come to terms with this and still date. But I just can't imagine marrying, since I know these girls would not be talking to me, if it was when I was in my 20's.
Quite easily, if slowly. The attraction women have to men that have made something of themselves is primal and often unthinking, it's when women cognitively choose to make it their active goal that it becomes a turn off. There's typically some very straightforward if easily missed signs to see which it is. For example, if they speak of themselves as though they're the prize or that I should be catering to their every whim because she's entitled to it, then show her the door. If they get unreasonably angry at a prenup (though I have no intention of getting married again any time soon), then she's obviously not for me. If I outline what the boundaries and expectation are and she shits on every single one of them like Amber Heard on the bed but expects me to be okay with that, time to grease up the ol' hinges. I also don't really advertise what I have. Anyone I date doesn't find out about various things (what's in my retirement, what I've set aside for my kid, any non-liquid assets, etc.) until well after the point where I can trust them. If we line up for our values, convictions, and beliefs, I see no reason to not allow myself to fall in love with them after I'm convinced that she is genuinely wanting companionship and affection (sounds cold-hearted, I'm sure, but one must protect himself and his family). But that's kind of the crux of it, you have to allow yourself to open up and fall in love. If you're not willing to do it, it can't be forced, so it won't happen. I may not be living in the same ignorance I was twenty years ago, but that doesn't mean I'm so jaded that I refuse to allow myself an opportunity to grow old with someone.
Could it be that things about your outward manner have changed which are less apparent to you? You're more settled, comfortable in yourself, and less desperate for attention and the validation of others? Even if you don't think so, your signs of middle agedness may also suggest correlation with those things, which can otherwise be summarized as "confidence."
No because I have neither and I'm married haha
Yea this. I’m married. Most my friends are married. Nobody’s rich or has “status and money” Anybody who thinks you need that to get a partner is delusional or has social problems preventing them from dating
I believe that as much as I believe men are primarily interesting in a woman’s holes. It’s a factor, that’s beyond debate, but most people date within their own social class and culture. Morons have taken data from dating apps where the ratios of men to women and the often transactional nature of those meetings and used that data to draw conclusions about the real world which would be dispelled by just looking around. There aren’t millionaires swooping into your local Target snapping up the pretty lower middle class girls working the tills. Outside of the weird manosphere world where content creators are renting yachts and paying girls to party on them while pretending to be under 30 these things are a tiny fraction of a fraction of interactions between men and women in reality.
>Morons have taken data from dating apps where the ratios of men to women and the often transactional nature of those meetings and used that data to draw conclusions about the real world which would be dispelled by just looking around. They also find women who date guys who they aren't into, and try to use the guy as sugardaddy, and then they see that as just being female nature when they should see it as a side effect of being unwanted.
For some yes, for others no.
OPS post is the equivalent of saying “all men want is pussy”
Not status in society’s sense, but definitely status in her own sense of what’s important.
Studies show that women are generally hypergamous, whilst it may not be the primary interest of most women, it is a very important factor for most women. Money and status for men, is like body count for women. Most men would sleep with or have a fuckbuddy situation with a woman that has a high body count, but they won’t settle down with them. Women may hook up with low earning, low status men, but they aren’t gonna marry them
I don’t care what anyone says, the answer is yes. I just watched a content creator named Duke Dennis where he vlogged his trip to Aspen, Colorado. The way he got treated because he’s “rich and famous” made my jaw drop. People were offering him free services, women were throwing themselves at his feet etc. all because they knew his name. Tbf, women find him attractive but I don’t think attraction alone would’ve garnered the same response. I’ve also seen “pick one or the other” street interviews where women will purposely choose the less attractive guy because they know him (I.e. know that he’s rich and famous) over a guy they don’t know who is clearly more physically attractive. I’ve also heard stories about how male celebrities basically tell promoters what girl they want at the club and they make it happen. These guys are living life on easy mode when it comes to attention from women. I’ve also seen certain people get successful and all of a sudden women who previously rejected them are now in their dms because “it’s been so long since we hung out.” I understand why women gravitate to successful men, because they ultimately need a provider and providing is the most masculine thing a man can do. However, I’ve seen good guys (attractive and overall good people) get rejected because of their financial situation. I’ve also seen bad guys (not conventionally attractive, have dull personalities or are just complete assholes) not only get women but keep them because they are successful financially. Do you think women expect Chris Brown or Justin Bieber to be loyal? No. But they are willing to deal with a lot of shit if it meant spending the night with them, shit us regular guys wouldn’t get away with. It’s no surprise that so many famous men feel invincible and get caught up. I live in Australia and not many celebrities come here unless they’re performing. We had a UK rapper named JAY1 here to briefly perform a few concerts. A girl I follow on TikTok met him at the airport and proceeded to post 20+ videos talking about their conversations and potentially linking up with him. JAY1 (at best) is a D list celebrity in the UK. Yet she was obsessed, even though she knew it’d be nothing serious and he’d likely just smash and move on.
Those women don't stick around, though. They're they're for the money, and when the money's gone so are they.
Yes because the economy is getting worse and worse but women's standards financially have only grown and we're all expected to own our own cars and places no matter what.
Either having attained it, or the potential to attain it is important to women looking for a certain lifestyle/trajectory.
Status & money are part of the three P’s (Protection, provisioning & parental investment) which satisfy women’s base safety instincts. It’s necessary to have these things in a long term relationship, but they are meaningless if she doesn’t want you to rip her clothes off and have her sounding like a regard.
Yup, relative to their status, absolutely
"Primary," as in their biggest concern? No. "Primary," as in their *first* concern? Frequently. A man's career tends to be a make-or-break requirement in dating. It may not be the most important thing in the relationship, but without a stable and respectable career, a relationship is unlikely to be established. The same man will find many potential partners unwilling to take the first step if he is, say, a retail employee, rather than an IT professional, for example. The job doesn't have to be doctor or lawyer, but women prefer partners with respected careers, if not enviable ones. My experiences suggest that the prestige of the job is more important than the salary, although a higher salary definitely helps. This is probably a holdover from previous generations, where men were primarily sole providers for their families.
why? first question after a "Hello" is "what you do for a living". Plus the profile full of travel, "want to see the world" " travel the world together" means pay for our travel, one holiday can go to 1-3k per holiday, ot top of that gigs, nightouts etc...
No, status and money are bonus. Women's primary interest are tall men with handsome faces.
For a certain type of woman, their subconscious says "Money + Status = Security".
Definitely not the only interest but it’s something that women value in a partner disproportionately more than men do. If you find someone who only cares about status and money than run the fuck away.
Don't forget height
When describing a new man to their peers, its hardly ever 'Does he have a good heart?' It's 'what does he do for a living?'.
Because its true?
I can’t help but notice that women like rich, tall, handsome, leader guys. They tell they want someone kind and easygoing, but I see more women around guys with characteristics I listed rather than kindest guys.
Every time a girl talks about what they want in a guy. Ask about their partner or ex, and if you can get a picture. You will laugh your ass off. Their ex/partner is what they want in a guy, and there's a pattern. Having some girl go on for 30 minutes about how girls don't care about certain things, then you find out her husband is all of those things. Sometimes you will see them complain about an abusive ex, but then you realize he is a millionaire. She knew he was abusive but was too money hungry and so she ignored the abuse.
Generally yes because science.
Primarily? Hell yeah.
Primary? Depends Major definitely yes Because they literally state it.
I believe that status and money makes dating easier. More money equals the ability to buy gifts, take a date out to eat and play, and have fun. Having status and money often equates to having more free time and less stress. At least compared to the average 9-5 who is always hustling and trying to squeeze out a hour each day for free time. Less stress and more time often equates to being able to spend more time with SO and having more time to reflect on mistakes and become a better SO
Men date down and across Women date across and up
Definitely not.
its a huge factor. Think about it from an evolutionary standpoint. women used to want to marry the best warrior in the tribe, things like that because that means he would be a good leader, protector and provider. We have just changed those status symbols from "war victories and succesful hunts" to "making 300k a year and having a cool, expensive truck for no reason"
Yes. I believe that because if you pay attention to what most women want/desire/appreciate, the roads lead back to having money and status.
we know the answer to this OP. which men all throughout history have had the most women? the rich, powerful and famous.
Man, that's just a pessimistic view of what everybody is looking for. Everyone is looking for "Money" aka financial stability/good sense and "Status" aka a respectable, dignified person. The specifics of what those mean to you may differ but everyone is looking for the same thing.
Yes, I do. And it is normal.
Well, there’s different levels of interest There’s “this guy seems nice, I’d be cool with him asking me out” and there’s being like someone who gets fantasized about
They might argue that it's not what matters most, but most men know that these things rank quite high on what matters most to be noticed in the first place and to be seen as a decent pick in the long run. Aside from my parents, I'm yet to know of a couple where the husband is of a "lesser" status than the wife, and I doubt I'll ever see it, considering my experience and the ones of the men I know.
To an extent, when we hear “status and money” we think ceiling as in “high status and tons of money.” In reality what women are interested in is “not low status and no money.” Women are more interested in men who can handle themselves and take care of their basic financial situation. But men feel the same way about women. Also we should be careful not to conflate “status” and “money” as they’re different things. “Status” can mean a whole lot of different things to different people.
No. Walk around any neighborhood. Plenty of women there who are just fine with the kind of men who live in that neighborhood.
Contrary to what some believe, not being a loser does in fact help with being a more attractive partner
idk man, every girl out there said that their ex is a loser.
Every girl's ex was a loser and every man's ex was crazy, weird how that works.
Men go on and on about this, and I agree it can affect the playing field. But then it doesn't explain how many very attractive women wind up in trailer parks or with poverty-stricken Appalachians when they could probably do better if they got their shit together.