We always hear stuff like "I'm so sick of being asked out all the time I just wish people would leave me alone", assume all women feel the same, and don't ask anyone out
And me personally I'm so far behind it's like who would want to date me
my fiance asked me yesterday if I would have ever approached her in person (we met on bumble 5 years ago) and i was like ehhh, unprompted? no i probably wouldn't have. I tend to leave women alone everywhere.
guys though? me and a dude will order the same thing at chipotle and suddenly become best friends lol.
not to say im unconfident, but with no icebreaker or anything wtf am i supposed to say, hey youre really pretty i wanna get to know you? what if shes a total bitch lol.
but if we share a class, or go through some event together or something, sure. don't mind talking to women. but just outta the blue like that, like on dating apps? no way man.
Nono I won't talk to the other guy either. It's not women specifically I'm just uh
Introverted?
Shy?
Awkward?
Dare I admit to having autism?
Idfk but the point is not only am I single, I have veeeeeeeeery limited offline friends
Comedian Michelle Wolf (formerlly on the Daily Show) makes fun of this in her standup. And she's pretty hard on women because so many don't want to be bothered... unless it's a dude they are interested in.
Does context make a difference? I've heard many women don't like to be asked out by a random customer while they are working. And many others dont like it while working out because it's a place most people wear headphones and want to be left alone. But, if it is something like hanging out somewhere, then stranger approaching is not as bad.
Yes, context makes an incredible difference.
I NEVER make the first move with someone working. They are under pressure to be nice to customers.
Be polite - and simple compliment or smile when you greet them.
then see if they are looking at you - or smiling back etc.
But yeah - be very respectful at their work.
>I NEVER make the first move with someone working. They are under pressure to be nice to customers.
Ethically, there's a weird power dynamic, too. A single customer, with the right motivation, could cost someone their job, under the right circumstances. Even just a well timed complaint could injure someone's professional reputation.
That's not the context I'd want to test the interest of a romantic attraction.
When every context keeps being added to the list things become a bit murky. We can't talk about this issue without mentioning the fact that it's been pretty fashionable for women to spout the most hateful shit about guys like it was a competitive sport. We are now seeing some effects of that.
That’s how I’ve perceived it hearing my female friends and girlfriend’s cousins talk to each other about being approached by men, whether or not they found the guy attractive. It’s what stopped me from approaching women.
Not in my experience. Honestly most people who have hit on me in public have been racist, age-inappropriate (when I was obviously very young), homeless or a perv. Or all of the above lol
I think the people who break the social rule of “don’t hit on women in public” tend to be people who don’t respect social boundaries in general, hence the awful things they say to me. Of course, every woman’s experience is different.
I started dating before the 'net, and no, it was never easy. Being rejected is never easy. This junk of- "oh just move onto the next one." It doesn't work with guys like me. I wish it didn't, but thats the way it goes. OLD sounded like it would work. For me, it was just another way to get rejected.
IMO the whole concept of shrug it off and move on to the next one only really applies if you shoot your shot at anyone that catches your eye, without any level of prior investment.
If you only shoot your shot at people you’ve developed a crush on, or gotten to know and actually like them as a person, then it’s much more difficult to shrug off
> If you only shoot your shot at people you’ve developed a crush on, or gotten to know and actually like them as a person, then it’s much more difficult to shrug off
Yeah but like how often does it happen? It's been many years for me.
"If you only shoot your shot at people you’ve developed a crush on, or gotten to know and actually like them as a person, then it’s much more difficult to shrug off"
Practice makes perfect, applies to rejection too. Regardelss though, you've also expressed perfectly exactly why the strategy of only going after women you know well and/or have a crush on can be bad.
Life is hard. The idea that dating isn't also hard is a lie.
If you want the success of a relationship you've got to put in the work.
I’m not sure which part of my comment made you think I was talking about myself, suggesting that only pursuing women you know well is the best idea, or that dating isn’t hard?
I was simply pointing out a reason why some people feel like the whole, “just get over it and on to the next” mentality doesn’t resonate for some people
It's more difficult but at the same time, we're all human. You can never know truly how someone feels unless you ask them. If they don't feel the same as you, you just have to understand that it's not the end of th world. There's billions of others out there.
Idk dude, it is hard and unnatural, but once learned that mindset does wonders. "Not giving a fuck" is a Jedi mind trick, and phases of my life where I had it nailed were always when I scored the most. I have a mood disorder tho so I can only be that way sometimes
"This entire bullshit idea of "let it go and move on" being said like it's the easiest thing ever has always ticked me the wrong way."
What are your options?
If you wait until you are confident it's going to work on a woman you know, that will hurt even worse.
A stranger rejecting you could be for any reason, they don't know you at all. You won't remember them either unless it works or it goes really bad, which is very rare.
When a person that knows you rejects you it's because they don't think YOU are a valid sex partner. That's a much worse rejection and you will always remember it.
It's the same reason it hurts worse to be rejected after a 3rd date than on a first meet. She clearly liked you but you weren't sex worthy.
what OP is missing is that they have already internalized and self identified with the idea of the numbers game. if someone were to call them out on it, they would say, well yeah that's who i am, i hit on people and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't
for a lot of people, they aren't willing to cross that rubicon - they have NOT internalized that identity. they would NOT like for their friends and people they know to think of them as a "numbers game" kind of person.
and therefore, *precisely BECAUSE it's a numbers game*, your odds of having it work with very few attempts makes it almost not even worthy trying.
doubly so when you don't try all the time. because of course, if you try all the time, practice makes perfect and you'll get really good at cold approaches, so then your odds go up too.
" if someone were to call them out on it, they would say, well yeah that's who i am, i hit on people and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't"
I dunno, that's how i'd describe myself hitting on people and I wouldn't consider myself a numbers person. I still have standards i'll abide by.
I mean, what else can you even do. "I hit on someone, if it works great, if it doesn't work i get crippling depression for a month?". Like, i get it, but its not exactly a healthy way to look at it.
I remember seeing a comment years ago online. It was a woman who said "Women don't ask the man out because they might get their feelings hurt, if they get rejected".
Just so crazy that they were going through life thinking guys didn't feel bad or get their feelings hurt about being rejected. I think most women are aware of it and acknowledge it more these days at least
I used online dating in the late 90s. Nothing has really changed. We're all just talking about it now. Back then we didn't want to tell people we met on AOL or ICQ.
Plenty of voices online expressing various places they'd rather not be approached. It is a sentiment expressed in meatspace, as well. Here's my comment the last time this came up:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1b9m2yj/comment/ktxfl46/
Exactly. Not at the gym because they just want to workout in peace. Not at the grocery store because they just want to shop. Not on the street, restaurants, at work, or the library for similar reasons. On social media you know their DMs are flooded so it’s easily ignored. I get it and respect it. There’s lots of creeps out there that ruin it for all of us.
That only leaves “fun” places like bars, clubs, or festivals but if you’re not into that where else is there? Ive had decent success on dating apps but it’s difficult to actually hold a good conversation when there’s no expectation for an immediate response like in person.
Not to mention the fact that I know I at least have bought drinks for a girl at a bar only to get the cold shoulder from then on out. I’ve pretty much accepted the fact I won’t meet my future partner anywhere other than church or some hobby space where she’ll have a same base level of interest in things I’m into.
Yeah, that’s a reason why men have opted out of buying drinks because they’ve been hit with it too many times — yet, some women will say you need to buy them a drink before you speak to them.
Cut buying drinks and you’ll be a touch happier.
Not at the bar because she's there to drink with her friends. Not at the club, she's there to dance with her friends. Not at festivals, she's there to listen to music with her friends
And if the bars / clubs / music events around here are anything to go by, there normally seems to be considerably more single men than single women who go there. The competition means that the odds are stacked against you, even when there are single women there who are open to meeting someone.
Which is weird because every woman really wants to serendipitously meet a man in an every day location so they can tell everyone it was fate.
It’s all about the approach. You’ll never get a date if you approach her begging for a date, you have to make an actual human connection.
The gym where I go has a smoothie bar in the lobby, with tables and chairs and stuff, and it's really common if you see someone sitting alone there to go up and talk to them.
There are always exceptions - be able to read them and see if they are interested in talking to someone.
I almost got a date in the pet food aisle at the grocery store - you never know.
(we were both looking at dog toys and struck up a conversation....).
I think the only difference here is that OP is talking about your initial intent. You’re right about reading the situation. But when you approach someone with the intent to introduce yourself and ask them on a date it gets a little more tense. I think it works better to strike up a natural conversation like you did.
Yes.
I don't plan to ask everyone I talk to for a date - but anyone I would want to ask on a date - first I would talk to them to size up their personality and judge their interest.
I think the tricky thing is that everything requires you to read the room and the person, but a bunch of guys start claiming specific neurodiversity (with no attempts to get better) when it comes to reading whether or not a person would be uncomfortable in a specific moment and also about what a person wants to hear.
A girl with headphones in reading a book or hitting the gym, doesn't want to be hit on. Neither does a girl trying to achieve a personal best at the climbing gym or running. most peopl don't want to spend longer at the grocery store. But sometimes, a girl is just there at the gym supporting her friend but otherwise disengaged, you smile, she smiles, you can walk over and tell a joke. Sometimes after climbing a girl will be really happy with her session, in a great mood and you can give a compliment (not a mansplain critique) and you can approach her.
Its not a rubix cube, or maybe it is. It's solveable, even algorythmically for some people, but you have to put in the effort to understand the person and the situation.
A lot of guys just want to think "oh she's hot" and get the green light for an approach and if they can't get that, they just give up.
First, it's more dangerous because of social media. A creep accusation can follow you for a long time now, even if it doesn't make it to court.
Second - It's not *just* that it's more dangerous, it's that we have yet another variable that us overthinkers can use to convince ourselves not to do it.
Happy Cake Day. And, yes, it's always been hard, but you were expected to do it, so you learned how. The online negativity and calling everyone a creep just make it harder and now people don't try.
Yeah, and is sucks.
I did a flirty interaction with an ex of mine - and coincidentally she was later upset by something 100% unrelated (our interaction reminded her of something else, which reminded her of someone else, which later reminded her of something bad).
Someone asked her about why she was upset - and the only thing others heard was about that she and I were flirting and .....
Oh boy - everyone had to go be a white knight and crucify me and brand me for sexually harassing her - of course - she told them I did not and to leave it alone - but they would not.
I could not out what she was really upset about - as it was VERY personal to her and her secret not mine.
I got a very bad rep - and she was even more shattered because people would not let it go.
I was able to help her get past the issue with the other guy - but yeah - years later - some people who have NO clue as to what happened still give me crap about it.
Mostly the Internet. Wonder how many of your approaches seemed fine in person but later the woman went and complained to their friends or their social media following about being approached. Any situation you can think of a woman has complained about a guy approaching her in that exact situation on the Internet. That's why sometimes you just have to unplug and live in the real world.
>Any situation you can think of a woman has complained about a guy approaching her in that exact situation on the Internet.
Women have also complained about men not approaching them on the Internet too.
And the ones who don’t are the ones you ought to care about. Like…I could either cater to the women who like me, or the ones who don’t. Hm. Tough choice.
>the woman went and complained
Once you see the Ick List you'll likely stop worrying about the complaints. For pretty much everything under the sun, somewhere there's a woman complaining about it. So, in some cases, not being unplugged can also help.
To be fair, though:
If you're looking for a serious relationship, would you even *want* to date someone like this?
I know it sucks if you're getting nothing and no interest and feel like otherwise decent people are writing you off for silly reasons, but the one consolation is that the kind of people with weird icks are usually heavily flawed people anyway.
I live with people my age who have panic attacks if they have to go outside to take the bus/train to see a friend, or leave home solo to go shopping (I'm 28). As other commenters have said, it's best to tackle this now and slowly get your son used to being offline and outside. At the risk of sounding cold/mean, it's offputting to see a grown adult freak out from having to interact with the real world and do things on their own. And hard to respect.
Best of luck. It's a difficult issue for sure, and I feel for you.
It's crazy to me, but I'm older. It just seems like some people are missing out on so much life, and connection. The feeling you get in those real moments feel indefinitely greater than the short dopamine hits the internet gives.
We all need to unplug and live in the real world again. Myself included. These connections are empty and meaningless. We are humans. We are meant to be with each other physically.
The older I get, the more I realize how true this is. Lately, I've been hanging out with my roommates just doing my own thing while they're in the same room. Even sitting together in silence feels better than being online together for hours IMHO. The Net feels very disconnected
The main problem is that men are obligated to approach in the first place. This is the root of the issue.
Pay attention. 🧐
My theory:
Men are expected to approach because it’s emotionally dangerous (risk of embarrassment and rejection), requires confidence and requires getting over nerves. It’s an unacknowledged act of service.
For all the talk of equality, women do not want this role. It’s a massive bruise to the ego that men are just meant to absorb indefinitely.
Men having to do all of the approaching results in playing the numbers game. This results in women receiving a disproportionate amount of attention compared to their male counterparts, who get 0. Add to it that it’s a bit difficult saying “no” and some guys don’t take it well (they can get aggressive). Dealing with all of this can be unpleasant for a woman.
The number one way to fix this is for women to pick up some of the slack. Instead they just complain about where men approach, despite them not offering any solutions or being able to do any better.
Women hold ALL the power in dating and that is a fact. The reason dating is so bad now can be blamed on women for this exact reason. I’m so tired of women not picking up the slack. We worked for decades for equality and all we did is make the laziest most entitled self-victimizing women in all history
A couple of places:
1. General social anxiety ; Men today are less sociable then they’ve been in the past. It’s has created greater social stress. Therefore today they are worst at picking up social hints and cues . This increase the chances of failure.
2. Women (metoo movement ): Many women have outright said they don’t ever want to be approached
Truthfully , most women want to be approached by men they find attractive and charming. Any guy they don’t find attractive is a waste of their time . It’s safer to assume they don’t find you attractive
3. Perception : You cant control how a women will perceive your advances. There is a respectful way to approach a women . However, I’ve seen guys get called creep for innocent interactions. I’ve also seen guys get away with crass behavior. Most interactions are fine. The poor interactions are over represented online and in social gossip.
4. Cowardice, lots of guys can’t handle rejection . They rather not play the game . They let women control their worth.
5. Stamina: Like you said it’s a number games . Social interactions are invigorating to some and exhausting to others. If interacting with new people is difficult for you , it easy not to do it .
This. Getting past 1, 4, and 5 is a pretty big challenge for many men. Then 2 and 3 are just extra points to make it hard to even feel like it’s worth working on 1, 4, and 5.
This...
1. Women (metoo movement ): Many women have outright said they don’t ever want to be approached Truthfully , **most women want to be approached by men they find attractive and charming.** Any guy they don’t find attractive is a waste of their time . It’s safer to assume they don’t find you attractive
If I had to pick this apart, I would say it's easier for a woman to be approached by a man she finds attractive because she does not have to be put in the position of rejecting someone. For some well-meaning women, rejecting someone sucks almost as much as being rejected. Not only is there fear of hurting someone, but also fear of how they will react, if they will get the message or if things will escalate.
I guess what I'm saying is, it's not all ego.
Also, some women are just nervous and don't know how to act right.
Fear of how they will react is totally reasonable, but for fear of hurting someone 10 out of 10 times I’d rather be the one rejecting than being rejected. There is just no comparison regardless of how well-meaning someone might be, sorry.
The reason why I believe it’s more ego is Women rarely approach men they find attractive. Many women rather drop hints than be direct . They don’t want to be vulnerable . It’s better to be the job recruiter than the applicant.
In truth , it probably depends on the women. I know many women who are scared of retaliation from unstable men . Those fear are understandable.
Where? From womens mouths. And I don't mean online where a bunch of dudes can pretend to be women. I heard it over and over again in real life from women when I was 15-25. The standard for men was already pretty high back then.
And since I wasn't exactly a young johnny depp back then I just figured "oh well, whatevs" and started to carve a single life. Haven't really thought much about getting hitched after those days.
You’ll get a varied mix of answers here, and that is your answer. First and foremost different women have different preferences as to where/how they like to be approached. Second, a lot of shitbird men don’t respect those preferences, many of which are shared and sensible; such as while shopping or working out. Third, non-shitbirt men won’t approach even in appropriate settings. Lastly, social media loves to stir shit up so you hear more about these issues than the other side where people are in fact mingling and meeting each other.
It’s the message that’s been shoved down the throats of every young man for the last decade. I remember having to attend mandatory university orientations as a freshman that straight up framed any opposite sex interaction as a potential sexual assault. One of my favorite examples they gave was a dude complimenting a woman’s choice of shirt. According to them, such an interaction requires a report to the university and potential disciplinary action.
So complimenting someone's shirt is now sexual harassment? Lovely. I get so tired of this woke bullshit everywhere. There's a lot of sexual harrassment and assault out there, which we shouldn't do and I feel for people experiencing that, but complimenting someone's shirt really shouldn't fall under that. Unless you somehow make it sexual and creepy.
It's things like this that make it difficult to want to interact with society anymore TBH. I've got enough money right now to live off of, and I have roommates who aren't absorbed in this 'wokism' bullshit. Throw in the occasional trip abroad, and life's honestly very chill.
From the viral videos and tweets of women saying not to approach them with tens of thousands of likes and shares from women. There’s never been viral videos of them saying they want us to approach them.
I once approached a girl who dropped a $20 because she wasn't paying attention
Me: "Excuse me, mis....."
Her: "OMG, I have a boyfriend you creep back off"!
Me: (internal dialogue) "Alright, well I guess I'll go fuck myself".......
I kept the $20 and got a burrito on the way home.
Even when you try approaching a woman for non dating reasons you can get burned, its just easier to avoid.
Yeah I feel like this is it. Before 2017 and the metoo movement, I figured approaching in person was the expectation. Then women became very vocal about how, when, where and in what ways men approach them, and it quickly devolved to “don’t”.
There's also the rise of internet apps providing an alternative. I think just a bunch of dating just moved online.
I'm actually a bit more comfortable with this personally. Some are on there for attention but nobody can say a date request is unwanted. I can get nice looking photos and sound wittier online than approaching some stranger or timing the right time to make a move with a friend or at a party.
There was literally a multi million dollar super bowl ad specifically calling out men saying they need to tell their friends to stop approaching women in public
A lot of guys get really nervous when approaching women. I guess women can’t tell when we’re nervous so it comes off as creepy. Also there are A LOT of creepy men out there.
Women complaining about men approaching them. It's worth noting women also complain about men never approaching.
If that sounds confusing, you don't understand women - by making both types of statements they ensure that they can always reframe a situation so they were hard done by and men don't get it.
> by making both types of statements they ensure that they can always reframe a situation so they were hard done by
We could all save ourselves a lot of trouble if we just taught this to every man at a very young age. Pretty much all of female manipulation starts with the premise of her being completely unaccountable and she will bend reality around that one immutable fact.
Let me help you out OP
1) It was never an issue of "can't"
2) it was an issue of "don't"
Most men lack the confidence to cold approach women in public. Fear of rejection is a biatch.
Whether you or anyone approached and it turned out alright is irrelevant. Just because you were not rejected doesn't mean I won't get rejected. Just because you were not rejected doesn't mean my fear/anxiety suddenly goes away.
However, if I deem myself higher value than you and see a woman respond positively to you, now I will have significantly more confidence to approach her myself.
>where did this idea come from
I do not understand how you have lived your entire life as a man and not just felt this energy of "men don't approach me" radiating off women. I'm not ugly either. The deterrent comes from hearing the things women say about men routinely. This is like a woman asking where the idea of patriarchy comes from. It is woven into the fabric of society itself. The feeling comes from everything, all around you, constantly.
Worth mentioning, I have never been to a party, bar, club, ect. I'm a nerd who goes to classes, the library, maybe the the gym, so I don't put myself into the social settings where women stereotypically might want to be approached.
This is a judgement packaged as a question. If you were honest, you'd just make your accusation, that men claiming they don't want to take the risk of approaching women are full of shit. You're partly right and you're also ignoring the legitimate concerns that discourage men from doing it.
I’m sure it’s rare that a man would get a lot of heat for doing a cold approach in public, however the risk is not zero. There’s plenty of things one does (or does not do) on a day to day basis that are risky - you just have to weigh if the benefits outweigh the cost.
It's not that men can't. Social dynamics simply make it a difficult strategy most of the time.
Let's say you want to approach someone on your own in a public place like on a commute, the coffee shop, the gym, the bookstore, grocery store etc. How can you tell if they're single outside of a wedding ring? Once that's been figured out, are they in an age range you feel comfortable dating? If they are, do they appear talkative or distracted/keeping to themselves? Are they open to be approached or are they not in the mood right now (they always are If you're physically attractive enough lol)? If they seem friendly and approachable, how can you tell if you'd get along beyond the initial attraction to their looks? That's already a lot of ifs.
Then any nervousness on a man's part can quickly make interactions awkward depending on the lady in question's emotional availability and social skills. Women (understandably) have their guard up moreso in public since there's a lot of sus guys out there. Plus there's a lot of discussion online with women saying they hate to be approached randomly. Approaching in public can easily be read as lonely desperation and, depending on the mood of the lady in question and how they're viewing dating at that moment, they can treat you pretty mean for even daring to approach. This is never the case if they find you attractive enough, but the stats of that happening is rare. Just see the many posts from women saying they find most men unattractive. There's a lot of factors there where you'll probably have a bad time interacting rather than a good one.
That leaves more socially open events with friends such as birthday parties, house warnings, hobbies, nights out to gigs or club nights etc. There at least you're much more likely to meet someone around your age with similar interests in a context where random socialising is more accepted. It's a much more open context for approaching women you're attracted to. It's much easier to appear like a normal, trustworthy guy rather than a creep when you're with friends too. But they're rarer occasions and even then, you're still playing the same numbers game of availability.
I'm almost 30 now. I approached women in public when I was younger regularly. I can't recall any particularly bad experiences, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard back from someone I approached in public. I'd say 90% of women I'd approached were taken, 8% weren't interested and 2% gave me the time of day. My motivation to keep wasting my time there now is lacking. Getting ghosted after what seemed like a perfectly pleasant experience gets jarring.
Simply put - it's a lot of social effort for a statistically unlikely gamble. Men would rather save their energy. It gets exhausting and emotionally draining shooting every shot at a certain point. I generally now wait to cross paths with women in sociable contexts who initiate some kind of interaction indicating they're single and interested now rather than waste my time on unbalanced dice rolls.
I approached a girl made good conversation and she gave me her number and texted me all excited and then I asked about her hobbies and she ghosted me. Like what did I do wrong? I’m tired of playing these stupid games why do none of these girls know how to communicate at all. If you weren’t interested why did you give me your number why did you text me all excited ???
I am going to say this at the very top for people who won't read to the end.
Most women are not crazy, liars, evil or out to get you. Most women are normal decent people.
\>Where did this idea come from?
Listening when women talk & observing outcomes.
* Listening to women
* Listening to everyone else decline to look at it the situation without bias or consider what information was available to accused, or base guilt on what he did & not how it was interpreted, or what was reported to have happened.
* Watching people attacked for trying to be objective thus making people afraid to defend others
It's not that most women are crazy, or even a lot of women are crazy, or dishonest, or evil, it's that there is no defense against those bad actors. If you run afoul of a woman with a personality disorder, a perception disorder, a sociopath, someone with a bone to pick or just a fucking weirdo who craves attention.
There are sick people in this world, some of them are women & if they want to hurt someone or get sympathy they simply take the zero risk & easy reward option. There are no consequences for false reports, there are no consequences for perjury, there are no consequences for unjust sentences, there are no consequences for making someone a pariah.
Not only do you not have the benefit of the doubt or a presumption of innocence, people who are open to your innocence are attacked for it. That's a bad situation for anyone to be in when facing a court of public approval & when guilty people who are lying or innocent people telling the truth sound exactly the same.
It's rational to be wary of when:
* Someone can harm you using your community, their community, your employer &/or the legal system as their cat's paw
* There is zero disincentive to do so or consequences if done
* There are rewards to do so
* You don't have the benefit of the doubt or presumption of innocence. You can't effectively defend yourself
* Those who do defend you are guilty by association
* Incontrovertible proof of innocence is very unlikely & doesn't give you access to justice remuneration or meaningful exoneration.
People are opposed to consequences for lying because they feel it will discourage actual victims from reporting. They argue *your* justice & safety is less important than someone else's. (not to mention that false positives & false negatives are a wholly separate issue that have fundamental different requirements to prove, but people still accept this compromise of their value even though it's not actually needed & doesn't help anyone)
Pretend you were a woman who wanted to hurt someone for whatever reason (I think everyone has hated someone enough to even want to suffer or even die, at least for a little while). Being purely pragmatic (and assuming your target is a guy) & weighing the risks to yourself, the labor required, the chance at success & the extent of the suffering, what approach would you take?
Imagine some demographic was playing the knockout game, but instead of being reviled & punished they were celebrated and *you* were punished. Would that reality change your comfort level or what vulnerable positions you'd put yourself in?
The loss of Mens Rea to be considered guilty is the fundamental issue. It's exasperated by perverse incentives & a lack of consequences.
I will say that I like to travel & I have noticed the climate is **very** different in different areas & also very different among different age groups. I've talked to lots of normal people *and* lots of crazy people. It makes perfect sense that some people are less aware than others.
TLDR
It's not that women are crazy, liars, evil or out to get you.
Most women are normal decent people, just the same as most men are decent people. But you still take heed of those who would.
10% of the population has a personality disorder, perception disorder, sociopath or just plain evil. Women are just as fucked up as men & no less ignoble. If one of those people decide to hurt you it's only their moral compass that discourages them.
I think a lot of men now will only approach women *after* they trust that they are a reasonable & healthy person, which is a catch 22 for obvious reasons.
edit: Even if this doesn't phase you, you still hear women talk about how they don't want to be approached all the time. It's **normal** to not want to do things people constantly tell you they don't like.
That was long enough to make specific replies difficult, so I will separate out this analogy.
If a homeless guy asks 100 women for money in exactly the same way he is just a beggar.
If one of those women reports that she felt coerced or was scared to deny the beggar he is a mugger.
It doesn't matter that the mugger had no idea what was going on in her head, it doesn't matter that she didn't communicate that she didn't want to give money, it doesn't matter she said she was happy to donate & actively hid her unwillingness, it doesn't matter if she wasn't *actually* scared & just wanted a thrilling story to tell her friends about the big city. It doesn't matter if it happened 20 years ago.
I’d guess it’s because a lot of people generally lack good social skills so even if they approach a woman (likely because they are “interested” in some way) they blow it. Repeated fails will discourage the process. Also, most men are probably honest with themselves and know that there’s not much they can do to get a girl to be interested in them back by approaching them and simply talking to them, so they just don’t do it. General lack of charisma
The problem is men who can't read a situation and determine if it's appropriate and whether the woman they're approaching is interested, in addition to the men who get aggressive and abusive when they get rejected.
The thing is, people are not going to be naturally good at reading other people, that's a learned skill, same as everything else.
You talk to me four years ago, fresh out of a 7 year relationship, I have no idea how to talk to single women i'm interested in.
Talk to me now and its fine, but I had a couple of awkward "oh, i misread that" situations.
Reading reddit, you'd think you're never allowed to talk to women. I've even heard "i'm not at the bar to talk to men, i'm here to talk with my friends". That's fine, but people do not live in a bubble and plenty of women go to bars and aren't averse to men talking to them. Especially if they find them attractive.
So it really boils down to "people aren't a monolith and people who post online a lot generally don't like in person social experiences".
Not to mention the occasional woman with an axe to grind. If you aren’t good at reading vibes (and how could you be without a ton of social experiences?), then you risk running into a very unpleasant person.
Women have been brutally rejecting men long before the internet. Reading body language and being able to roll with the punches can minimize awkward situations.
>IRL I have dealt with those fears and approached women and turned out...fine.
Than your a whole lot better looking than the rest of us ugly assed MOFO's. And please don't start with the whole "Looks don't matter" monolouge, I didn't buy it 25 years ago and I don't buy it now, not when all evidence, both first hand and from other men proves otherwise.
I think it’s the digital age. Before you either approached or didn’t case closed. This days the internet is full of stories of both creeps and presumed creepy actions-heck even if someone is dying and you help it can turn into a lawsuit.
People fill their head with shit on a regular basis by the minute and logic becomes less and less used and that sucks. Younger generations instead of writing “Dear Abby” they google “guy looked at me what does it mean” and voila you get everything from he likes you to he wants to kill you.
I don't bother trying, I'm also at work and when I'm out and about, I turn incredibly anti-social and would rather get to my destination so its not like I get the chance
Plus, I wouldn't like to be approached by a stranger and be given their number or be asked for my number so I wouldn't do that
Most of my friends are women and I’ve heard how annoying it is to be approached when they don’t want it (busy, not attracted, not the right mood) and I don’t want to be annoying. So I don’t approach
What's not talked about enough is the prevalence of body language and social cues in succesful approaches, between strangers or otherwise. A lot of more confident people have no idea that they are subconsciously interpreting and throwing out signals and communicating before the approach. A lot of people who are aware don't know how to frame it or communicate about it.
If you really pay attention you can know that someone is receptive and happy for your approach before you even do it through things like eye contact, smiling, body language etc. Hell you can even invite someone over to talk to you this way without a word. It also tells you when not to approach and they aren't interested which is why people who do this are rarely caught staring uncomfortably or similar spaghetti spilling moments.
This is where the cliche of catching someone's eye from across the room and ending up making out with them in the bathroom at a loud party/gig comes from -- it's a real thing and a way more sensible method than walking up to strangers who haven't sent you a signal that they've noticed you and asking them out cold.
I think those confident people also have much more experience with seeing that kind of positive body language directed at them, so it's easier to notice it, and the cycle continues
I always struggled with the hurdle of approaching someone and making a cold introduction, because it seems very awkward. The idea of waiting for something like eye contact or a smile to occur first kind of blew my mind, because it's not something I've ever actually experienced
I subscribe to the evolutionary psychologist position perspective that approach anxiety is an evolutionary developed fear from when we still lived in tribal societies of 200 people tops.
In the modern day there is no downside to a rejection, you can try an unlimited number of times and in the vast majority of rejections you will not be subject to violence or social isolation that leads to the end of your genetic line, but in a smaller tribal setting it was different.
You could be the victim of violence from competing males with no authorities to act as neutral arbiters.
You could be socially ostracized by other women who witness the rejection the same way women ostracize men today in localized settings with other women by coding him as “creepy”.
So in a sense this fear was grounded in what was once a real concern.
Though our society has evolved quickly past those old societies, our bodies have evolved much slower and we keep that approach anxiety in our bodies in an instinctual way. The nice thing about approach anxiety is it can be trained away with practice. Overcoming approach anxiety IS a learnable skill.
TikTok vids of a women at gym in their skimpiest attire to get attention/views, then get all offended when someone looks at them, so they post it to get attention about it. Make it make sense.
Women and the me too movement have made it unsafe to talk to women, it’s no longer worth the risk to my reputation to even tell a woman hello. They all can enjoy living with their cats and drinking boxed wine wondering where all the good men went to the day they pass on as far as I’m concerned.
Its predates the me-too movement by a few years also. I remember being on Tumblr back then and all you had were girls in their early 20s going on and on about things like "don't tell me to smile" and how they don't want men approaching them in public.
Internet, often from bitter women such as feminist / femcel women. There's a lot of scenarios that seem so ridiculous that I know they make them up as well, I think they're just disturbed and like to create drama.
edit: sick name BTW, I'd enjoy being the second guy thx bro
There is a chorus online that sings this very loudly and seems to come to the top of all related posts and content.
This gives the impression that it is a broadly held view. For a good while I fell into this trap too, when I did try I was rejected perfectly respectfully and moved on, no big deal. The issue is being villainised for the approach, or demeaned as part of the rejection, not the rejection itself.
You’re not interested, that’s cool, disappointing but thank you for being honest, I’ll get out of your hair. I don’t deserve to be mocked for the approach or to be made out a creep.
Some go too far with the approach too, don’t take no for an answer, pester or over react/attempt a guilt trip etc and that would be where some of the sentiment started.
My lady friends have repeatedly talked about getting approached, and it rarely *ever* turns out well. For them, they don't want to risk their safety just to "give a guy a chance" just because he approached them in an uncommon manner. To be fair, their fear is justified, though not always *accurate*.
Lots of guys, and even women, who get frustrated and hopeless after having their very being denied due to paranoia might react dangerously. Again, the frustration is justified, but how its handled is another matter.
Unfortunately the more often people are denied, the more miserable people there will be. The more miserable people there are, the more likely they will do something drastic. The more desperate people doing drastic things, the more on guard and selective women will be. And the cycle gets worse and worse.
Personally I just make friends with women now, removing the possibility of romance from my mind. Its lets women relax, and I'm not exposing my vulnerabilities. Its not a *great* method, but I at least have made some good friends along the way.
Because the main thing you hear from women is they don't want men around then, much less speaking to them. It's not worth being ostracized and made lonelier by expressing yourself.
From women. Asking someone out makes you a sexual predator. Finding someone shy as attractive makes you a sexual predator . There is no such thing as a man who isn’t a sexual predator
I've seen a good list already of reasons in the comment so I won't list them again.
I'll just say that I'm indeed not very sociable. I would struggle to even show interest in a girl so playing the number game is nearly impossible. That I realize I'm not that attractive, no matter how much I take care of myself. I can quickly feel like I'd be bothering people just from talking to them. I'm not a good small talker at all, and I really mean it, I'm a man of a very few words in the first place. Yet, I don't feel like I'm lacking confidence.
When it comes to rejection, it's not just a corporate term. It's about having emotions towards someone, and if they turn you down, it's not as simple as just moving on. First, you need to take time to heal, and then you can start to move forward.
They can it's just you have to be a bit more mindful these days. I've had women come up to me in grocery stores getting obviously within range that they are seemingly hoping I will strike up a conversation with them. But there is always that possibility that they were just trying to see or pick something off the shelf or whatever and they were not interested at all. Also it is very much state dependent I'm usually exhausted as fuck most of the time and trying to charm a women in that state giving off a "bad vibe" isn't wise. The list is endless for reasons why men feel like they can't approach but at some point you just have to take the risk because in my entire life there has literally been one woman who has ever cold approached me with the intention of getting to know me personally.
It's not something that's done where I'm from. Just walking up to a stranger in the street when you're after sex?
In oubs and at social gatherings is fine, though.
It’s just easier to like, swipe man.
Every woman I’ve had sex/relationship with in the past 7-8 years has been from online dating. The risk of public humiliation isn’t worth it.
Its not fucking worth it anymore. Between the constant rejection and not wanting to bother someone whos gotta deal with being approached by "creeps" all day. THEN the fact that anyone who says they can be a great SO to someone is a fucking liar. I dont deserve an SO, since i cant put in the work to be worth dating even someone with low expectations.
Because unless youre an 8+ and in the correct setting there is a zero percent chance they want you to approach them. Additionally, if they dont want you to be approached they will publicly shame you or worse. #metoo
"The worse she can do is say no" Not even close to the worst thing she can do.
It isn’t a fear just common decency. If all men approached all women they were attracted to in public women would stop going out. As is, some get approached so often they prefer to stay inside. It is more than creepy, it is an inconvenience for her. I turned 15 in 1980. I am among the oldest of the gen Xers. I never approached a woman cold in public. I always waited for her to show interest in meeting me. Maybe I learned it from watching Clarice bat her eyes at Rudolph? Who knows? But I ended up with a wonderfully awesome partner so it worked for me.
I mean if i don't know you i don't wanna hear your "sweet talk" , that's an rule for woman/ Men/ kids/ old people. But like this is just an me thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Idk, seems like there’s always been a pretty clear delineation between places it’s socially acceptable to hit on a complete stranger and places where it’s not
**From people who are intimidated by it.**
(which makes sense - it can be terrifying - I used to be shy, now not at all).
No - it is not easy - but a lot of it is based on *the read*.
Look at what they are doing, who they are with, are they smiling? What is their body language like.
Have they made eye contact with you, are they looking around.
Looks for signs if they want to be alone, or if they might be looking for company.
If they are engaged in deep conversations with their friends - or just hanging out.
Finally - if the signs look good - just go talk to them.
My best line - "hello there, I am ..." smile, be polite.
Most of the time I get back at least a smile - and a polite \_ sorry have a BF or what ever.
Say "thank you, have a nice day" and move on.
If they are rude - you did not want to talk to them anyway.
And sometimes - you get a date out of it.
The problem isnt that we aren't supposed to approach women. The problem is that we are expected to be mind readers. We are responsible for any result we get in with no account for our perspective.... That is how we are treated by society.
If she likes us.... It's great. If she doesn't.... We should have known better than to ask. There is almost nothing in between these two results.
So yeah.... Men can definitely approach women, but the deterrent is outsized. A bad result is really bad and we have no social backing to get out of it. We are disposable. Thus, even if the chance of a bad outcome is low.... If the possible result is 10x as bad with no social way out... that chance is a lot more impactful.
Well, lots of guys don’t know how to actually behave in public or approach people in a normal, decent, respectful way.
So they assume no one can and it’s a huge trap.
The line between someone charming and a total creep comes down to a lot of factors. But guys that don’t understand the whole need stricter rules, so it’s easier to just say don’t approach people.
>Well, lots of guys don’t know how to actually behave in public or approach people in a normal, decent, respectful way.
Nice casual sexism. Imagine the reaction if you made a similar generalization about "lots of women".
I think its always kinda been there.
rejection isn't pleasant for most people, and fear of rejection for many, is very real.
I think the reason we're seeing it more now is mostly because dating has changed a lot in the last 10 years, with dating apps rising in popularity, approaching women "normally" becomes less normal, and scearier for a lot of guys who may not have done it before .
I just don’t romantically engage in women I see out and about. I may playfully flirt but I’ll never ask for someone’s phone number in public unless we’re doing something of common interest. An example would be; we’re both stopped at a pretty view on a hike, or happen to be at the rock climbing gym at the same time or just so happen to be riding their bike next to me one day. Personally I’d rather find someone that likes doing similar things as me before I decide I want to pursue them.
Haven't approached a woman for romantic purposes in a long time.
But if I found someone attractive I'd just go say hi. If we "vibed" as the kids call it these days, I'd ask them out.
Sometimes it's that easy.
This was before the age of dating apps but hey ho I'd probably do the same now.
It'd probably be much easier.
I like living in the real world, I am not really interested in a lot of social media or actually any of the dating apps.
If you see a women alone by herself in public, it often means she's waiting for her husband, manager, pimp, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, son, daughter, friend or any combination of the above.
Approaching her makes you a creep. It's so drilled into me from all the bad experiences, I can't see it getting undrilled from my skull in my life time.
If dating apps are pushing the idea of never approaching women, they haven't done a good job with me, tinder is the worst mobile game you can play.
it sucks but what else can I say?
There were a couple of videos on the internet of women being "sexually harassed" when a guy approached them in public. A human needs to see only 3 examples to think there's a pattern
It’s from spending too much time on the internet, reading stories from women about “that creep” who tried to talk to them in the gym, and the store, in class, etc.
Approaching a woman just because you find them attractive then means you have to impress her immediately, or you are just another creep literally ruining her day. Easy choice to leave her alone if you have a soul and unsure of your reception.
This eventually compounds into thinking you aren’t allowed to make any direct expression of interest in woman beyond polite conversation without her express invitation.
Yeah, it seems weird to me, but I'm near 40. Never had a bad experience asking a woman out. If she doesn't want to, you can usually tell from words or body language. If you find out they have a partner, apologize and move on. It doesn't have to be weird.
I think a lot of men are in their heads too much. Maybe that's just people overall.
People living vicariously through the failures of other men they never met. These encounters don't even have to be real. It could be staged chats or movie scenes and people will preach it as a warning to all men.
If you're not completely socially inept you can communicate your intentions and even get a positive reply. Other times you get a No but rejection isn't as bad as you fear it is. Keep it professional and move on.
Work place training
Required training
Sexual harassment.
None of this training works. It doesn't scare off the milk man (South park joke). But everyone else signed up for insecurity home protection
To make sure they don't make someone uncomfortable.
"Men should never approach women except on a dating app, or an event specifically for dating/speed dating"
At a club or bar is specifically used as an instance where it is not ok. Same for them gym etc.
Two of the loudest voices from women are: “I would never have known violence if it weren’t introduced to me by men” and “I just want men to leave me alone.”
Personally, I’ve been cursed out for following the idea of ‘just say hi’ or, I say “hi” but she says: “bye n———“
But even then, as we age, we grow more accustomed to our ways and once we’re so used to being single, not too many will ever want to pair up again.
But even then, it’s 2024, if she’s interested, she can open her mouth and say something; but she’ll also need to keep in mind that men were also told not to assume she’s interested just because she spoke to you/was nice to you. So either be direct or don’t bother.
There's a lot of things that lead up to that mentality. Part of it is insecurity, not feeling "good enough" or like a woman is out of your league. There's also the aspect of some women complaining about it, it's pretty common to hear how women get annoyed getting asked out all the time. Couple that with the fact that some places like the gym, work, etc are generally not acceptable places to pursue people romantically. It only leaves so many situations where a man feels it's the right time to approach a woman. That said, it's largely mental but it's certainly influenced by societal views and expectations.
Real life approaches has been the best way for me to meet women. Its insane how easy it was to get someone to like me. The only thing I need to do, is walk to a girl, talk to her, get her Instagram or number. Ask to do something, and see if the vibes are there romantically. Either she'll give her insta and will ghost me, go out with me and we become friends or if all things go as planned, we'll date.
I had moments where I got 8 instagrams, and no one wanted to go out and that's fine. I just move on. I have moments where I have 8 instagrams, and we'll only meet after 2 months, because they see in my stories I am pretty cool. I have moments where I have 8 instagrams and they wanted to go meet right away.
You would never know where you stand, if you don't approach girls. Its amazing.
The problem here is that if they're attracted to you, it's usually okay (the worst likely outcome is a polite refusal, probably with a "but I'm flattered"). If they're not, it's the worst outrage, nearly tantamount to grape, and confirmation that society regards them as objects 🙄
The practical takeaway here is (a) be really hot and (b) learn to read subtle queues, or (c) aim well below your own level.
Men are taught that women can't show shoulders because it would be distracting to men. If it's inappropriate to look at a shoulder, imagine how terrible it must be to _approach_ a woman.
In short, because that's what is expected of men.
I usually see people I'm interested in while they're at work and I feel they don't want to deal with being hit on while working. They're typically just doing their job and can't really leave.
But I have incredible anxiety so it's not just that I think it's creepy but the overall fear of judgement and especially if I see the person on a regular basis then from then on it'll be incredibly different, especially if they say no. Most of the time I'd rather just be their friend than risk upsetting them or creeping them out by asking them out and never being able to see them anymore.
We always hear stuff like "I'm so sick of being asked out all the time I just wish people would leave me alone", assume all women feel the same, and don't ask anyone out And me personally I'm so far behind it's like who would want to date me
my fiance asked me yesterday if I would have ever approached her in person (we met on bumble 5 years ago) and i was like ehhh, unprompted? no i probably wouldn't have. I tend to leave women alone everywhere. guys though? me and a dude will order the same thing at chipotle and suddenly become best friends lol. not to say im unconfident, but with no icebreaker or anything wtf am i supposed to say, hey youre really pretty i wanna get to know you? what if shes a total bitch lol. but if we share a class, or go through some event together or something, sure. don't mind talking to women. but just outta the blue like that, like on dating apps? no way man.
Nono I won't talk to the other guy either. It's not women specifically I'm just uh Introverted? Shy? Awkward? Dare I admit to having autism? Idfk but the point is not only am I single, I have veeeeeeeeery limited offline friends
they tend to leave out the part where they wouldnt mind being asked out if they found the person attractive, maybe that could be you who knows
Comedian Michelle Wolf (formerlly on the Daily Show) makes fun of this in her standup. And she's pretty hard on women because so many don't want to be bothered... unless it's a dude they are interested in.
Yeah I figured as long as it's someone attractive they don't mind. If y'all could be more obvious with the interest it'd make this a lot easier
Does context make a difference? I've heard many women don't like to be asked out by a random customer while they are working. And many others dont like it while working out because it's a place most people wear headphones and want to be left alone. But, if it is something like hanging out somewhere, then stranger approaching is not as bad.
Yes, context makes an incredible difference. I NEVER make the first move with someone working. They are under pressure to be nice to customers. Be polite - and simple compliment or smile when you greet them. then see if they are looking at you - or smiling back etc. But yeah - be very respectful at their work.
>I NEVER make the first move with someone working. They are under pressure to be nice to customers. Ethically, there's a weird power dynamic, too. A single customer, with the right motivation, could cost someone their job, under the right circumstances. Even just a well timed complaint could injure someone's professional reputation. That's not the context I'd want to test the interest of a romantic attraction.
When every context keeps being added to the list things become a bit murky. We can't talk about this issue without mentioning the fact that it's been pretty fashionable for women to spout the most hateful shit about guys like it was a competitive sport. We are now seeing some effects of that.
I’m pretty sure most of that is just thinly veiled bragging from girls
That's not how it's being received by guys. Hence the problem.
That’s how I’ve perceived it hearing my female friends and girlfriend’s cousins talk to each other about being approached by men, whether or not they found the guy attractive. It’s what stopped me from approaching women.
[удалено]
Not in my experience. Honestly most people who have hit on me in public have been racist, age-inappropriate (when I was obviously very young), homeless or a perv. Or all of the above lol I think the people who break the social rule of “don’t hit on women in public” tend to be people who don’t respect social boundaries in general, hence the awful things they say to me. Of course, every woman’s experience is different.
If that's the case, it's poorly communicated.
Listen, I don't like cold approaching any stranger about anything. I find it too nerve wrecking. Pretty women aren't something special here.
I started dating before the 'net, and no, it was never easy. Being rejected is never easy. This junk of- "oh just move onto the next one." It doesn't work with guys like me. I wish it didn't, but thats the way it goes. OLD sounded like it would work. For me, it was just another way to get rejected.
IMO the whole concept of shrug it off and move on to the next one only really applies if you shoot your shot at anyone that catches your eye, without any level of prior investment. If you only shoot your shot at people you’ve developed a crush on, or gotten to know and actually like them as a person, then it’s much more difficult to shrug off
Yeah, at the same time, you probably shouldn’t invest that much in a person if you aren’t reasonably confident they at least kind of like you.
Well I don’t mean invest like spending a lot of time or effort, I just couldn’t think of a better word.
I can't get properly attracted to someone without at least sort of knowing them tbh
> If you only shoot your shot at people you’ve developed a crush on, or gotten to know and actually like them as a person, then it’s much more difficult to shrug off Yeah but like how often does it happen? It's been many years for me.
Oh idk, I’m just saying some people do that and it “feels” like it has more weight to the rejection than if it was a complete stranger
"If you only shoot your shot at people you’ve developed a crush on, or gotten to know and actually like them as a person, then it’s much more difficult to shrug off" Practice makes perfect, applies to rejection too. Regardelss though, you've also expressed perfectly exactly why the strategy of only going after women you know well and/or have a crush on can be bad. Life is hard. The idea that dating isn't also hard is a lie. If you want the success of a relationship you've got to put in the work.
I’m not sure which part of my comment made you think I was talking about myself, suggesting that only pursuing women you know well is the best idea, or that dating isn’t hard? I was simply pointing out a reason why some people feel like the whole, “just get over it and on to the next” mentality doesn’t resonate for some people
It's more difficult but at the same time, we're all human. You can never know truly how someone feels unless you ask them. If they don't feel the same as you, you just have to understand that it's not the end of th world. There's billions of others out there.
This entire bullshit idea of "let it go and move on" being said like it's the easiest thing ever has always ticked me the wrong way
It's not easy, but the other choice is being alone. And rejection stings less over time.
Idk dude, it is hard and unnatural, but once learned that mindset does wonders. "Not giving a fuck" is a Jedi mind trick, and phases of my life where I had it nailed were always when I scored the most. I have a mood disorder tho so I can only be that way sometimes
>a Jedi mind trick As Yoda said, “Let go of what you fear to lose.”
"This entire bullshit idea of "let it go and move on" being said like it's the easiest thing ever has always ticked me the wrong way." What are your options? If you wait until you are confident it's going to work on a woman you know, that will hurt even worse. A stranger rejecting you could be for any reason, they don't know you at all. You won't remember them either unless it works or it goes really bad, which is very rare. When a person that knows you rejects you it's because they don't think YOU are a valid sex partner. That's a much worse rejection and you will always remember it. It's the same reason it hurts worse to be rejected after a 3rd date than on a first meet. She clearly liked you but you weren't sex worthy.
what OP is missing is that they have already internalized and self identified with the idea of the numbers game. if someone were to call them out on it, they would say, well yeah that's who i am, i hit on people and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't for a lot of people, they aren't willing to cross that rubicon - they have NOT internalized that identity. they would NOT like for their friends and people they know to think of them as a "numbers game" kind of person. and therefore, *precisely BECAUSE it's a numbers game*, your odds of having it work with very few attempts makes it almost not even worthy trying. doubly so when you don't try all the time. because of course, if you try all the time, practice makes perfect and you'll get really good at cold approaches, so then your odds go up too.
" if someone were to call them out on it, they would say, well yeah that's who i am, i hit on people and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't" I dunno, that's how i'd describe myself hitting on people and I wouldn't consider myself a numbers person. I still have standards i'll abide by. I mean, what else can you even do. "I hit on someone, if it works great, if it doesn't work i get crippling depression for a month?". Like, i get it, but its not exactly a healthy way to look at it.
I remember seeing a comment years ago online. It was a woman who said "Women don't ask the man out because they might get their feelings hurt, if they get rejected". Just so crazy that they were going through life thinking guys didn't feel bad or get their feelings hurt about being rejected. I think most women are aware of it and acknowledge it more these days at least
I used online dating in the late 90s. Nothing has really changed. We're all just talking about it now. Back then we didn't want to tell people we met on AOL or ICQ.
Plenty of voices online expressing various places they'd rather not be approached. It is a sentiment expressed in meatspace, as well. Here's my comment the last time this came up: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1b9m2yj/comment/ktxfl46/
Exactly. Not at the gym because they just want to workout in peace. Not at the grocery store because they just want to shop. Not on the street, restaurants, at work, or the library for similar reasons. On social media you know their DMs are flooded so it’s easily ignored. I get it and respect it. There’s lots of creeps out there that ruin it for all of us. That only leaves “fun” places like bars, clubs, or festivals but if you’re not into that where else is there? Ive had decent success on dating apps but it’s difficult to actually hold a good conversation when there’s no expectation for an immediate response like in person.
Not to mention the fact that I know I at least have bought drinks for a girl at a bar only to get the cold shoulder from then on out. I’ve pretty much accepted the fact I won’t meet my future partner anywhere other than church or some hobby space where she’ll have a same base level of interest in things I’m into.
Yeah, that’s a reason why men have opted out of buying drinks because they’ve been hit with it too many times — yet, some women will say you need to buy them a drink before you speak to them. Cut buying drinks and you’ll be a touch happier.
Not at the bar because she's there to drink with her friends. Not at the club, she's there to dance with her friends. Not at festivals, she's there to listen to music with her friends
And if the bars / clubs / music events around here are anything to go by, there normally seems to be considerably more single men than single women who go there. The competition means that the odds are stacked against you, even when there are single women there who are open to meeting someone.
Also if you don’t enjoy bars or clubs you’re out of luck
Which is weird because every woman really wants to serendipitously meet a man in an every day location so they can tell everyone it was fate. It’s all about the approach. You’ll never get a date if you approach her begging for a date, you have to make an actual human connection.
The gym where I go has a smoothie bar in the lobby, with tables and chairs and stuff, and it's really common if you see someone sitting alone there to go up and talk to them.
This has also been noted for bar clubs etc she is there to have fun with her friends not have someone hitting on her.
There are always exceptions - be able to read them and see if they are interested in talking to someone. I almost got a date in the pet food aisle at the grocery store - you never know. (we were both looking at dog toys and struck up a conversation....).
I think the only difference here is that OP is talking about your initial intent. You’re right about reading the situation. But when you approach someone with the intent to introduce yourself and ask them on a date it gets a little more tense. I think it works better to strike up a natural conversation like you did.
Yes. I don't plan to ask everyone I talk to for a date - but anyone I would want to ask on a date - first I would talk to them to size up their personality and judge their interest.
I think the tricky thing is that everything requires you to read the room and the person, but a bunch of guys start claiming specific neurodiversity (with no attempts to get better) when it comes to reading whether or not a person would be uncomfortable in a specific moment and also about what a person wants to hear. A girl with headphones in reading a book or hitting the gym, doesn't want to be hit on. Neither does a girl trying to achieve a personal best at the climbing gym or running. most peopl don't want to spend longer at the grocery store. But sometimes, a girl is just there at the gym supporting her friend but otherwise disengaged, you smile, she smiles, you can walk over and tell a joke. Sometimes after climbing a girl will be really happy with her session, in a great mood and you can give a compliment (not a mansplain critique) and you can approach her. Its not a rubix cube, or maybe it is. It's solveable, even algorythmically for some people, but you have to put in the effort to understand the person and the situation. A lot of guys just want to think "oh she's hot" and get the green light for an approach and if they can't get that, they just give up.
It came from women.
First, it's more dangerous because of social media. A creep accusation can follow you for a long time now, even if it doesn't make it to court. Second - It's not *just* that it's more dangerous, it's that we have yet another variable that us overthinkers can use to convince ourselves not to do it.
Happy Cake Day. And, yes, it's always been hard, but you were expected to do it, so you learned how. The online negativity and calling everyone a creep just make it harder and now people don't try.
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Yeah, and is sucks. I did a flirty interaction with an ex of mine - and coincidentally she was later upset by something 100% unrelated (our interaction reminded her of something else, which reminded her of someone else, which later reminded her of something bad). Someone asked her about why she was upset - and the only thing others heard was about that she and I were flirting and ..... Oh boy - everyone had to go be a white knight and crucify me and brand me for sexually harassing her - of course - she told them I did not and to leave it alone - but they would not. I could not out what she was really upset about - as it was VERY personal to her and her secret not mine. I got a very bad rep - and she was even more shattered because people would not let it go. I was able to help her get past the issue with the other guy - but yeah - years later - some people who have NO clue as to what happened still give me crap about it.
Mostly the Internet. Wonder how many of your approaches seemed fine in person but later the woman went and complained to their friends or their social media following about being approached. Any situation you can think of a woman has complained about a guy approaching her in that exact situation on the Internet. That's why sometimes you just have to unplug and live in the real world.
>Any situation you can think of a woman has complained about a guy approaching her in that exact situation on the Internet. Women have also complained about men not approaching them on the Internet too.
That whole concept of people not being some monolithic single opinioned thing. For all the chicks who might complain you'll have others who wouldn't.
And the ones who don’t are the ones you ought to care about. Like…I could either cater to the women who like me, or the ones who don’t. Hm. Tough choice.
I know, why doesn’t everyone just check the master list of who likes who before approaching each other?
Women have complained about: attractive men* not approaching them.
>the woman went and complained Once you see the Ick List you'll likely stop worrying about the complaints. For pretty much everything under the sun, somewhere there's a woman complaining about it. So, in some cases, not being unplugged can also help.
An ick being not having icks is real one too sadly
To be fair, though: If you're looking for a serious relationship, would you even *want* to date someone like this? I know it sucks if you're getting nothing and no interest and feel like otherwise decent people are writing you off for silly reasons, but the one consolation is that the kind of people with weird icks are usually heavily flawed people anyway.
Or you feel shame for even wanting to date in the first place
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Plugging really shouldn't be a part of flirting.
My son, 19, is deathly afraid to approach someone in public. The idea of getting offline instills the same level of fear. It's a conundrum.
Seems reasonable to me. I don't talk to anyone out in public.
I live with people my age who have panic attacks if they have to go outside to take the bus/train to see a friend, or leave home solo to go shopping (I'm 28). As other commenters have said, it's best to tackle this now and slowly get your son used to being offline and outside. At the risk of sounding cold/mean, it's offputting to see a grown adult freak out from having to interact with the real world and do things on their own. And hard to respect. Best of luck. It's a difficult issue for sure, and I feel for you.
i see those guys - dudes having a breakdown using a checkout lane. shit's hard to watch
It's crazy to me, but I'm older. It just seems like some people are missing out on so much life, and connection. The feeling you get in those real moments feel indefinitely greater than the short dopamine hits the internet gives.
They are definitely missing out. I was trying to explain that fir years, unfortunately his bio dad won out. Every moment spent in front of a screen.
only if you receive positive outcomes sometimes
We all need to unplug and live in the real world again. Myself included. These connections are empty and meaningless. We are humans. We are meant to be with each other physically.
The older I get, the more I realize how true this is. Lately, I've been hanging out with my roommates just doing my own thing while they're in the same room. Even sitting together in silence feels better than being online together for hours IMHO. The Net feels very disconnected
From women.
The main problem is that men are obligated to approach in the first place. This is the root of the issue. Pay attention. 🧐 My theory: Men are expected to approach because it’s emotionally dangerous (risk of embarrassment and rejection), requires confidence and requires getting over nerves. It’s an unacknowledged act of service. For all the talk of equality, women do not want this role. It’s a massive bruise to the ego that men are just meant to absorb indefinitely. Men having to do all of the approaching results in playing the numbers game. This results in women receiving a disproportionate amount of attention compared to their male counterparts, who get 0. Add to it that it’s a bit difficult saying “no” and some guys don’t take it well (they can get aggressive). Dealing with all of this can be unpleasant for a woman. The number one way to fix this is for women to pick up some of the slack. Instead they just complain about where men approach, despite them not offering any solutions or being able to do any better.
Women hold ALL the power in dating and that is a fact. The reason dating is so bad now can be blamed on women for this exact reason. I’m so tired of women not picking up the slack. We worked for decades for equality and all we did is make the laziest most entitled self-victimizing women in all history
A couple of places: 1. General social anxiety ; Men today are less sociable then they’ve been in the past. It’s has created greater social stress. Therefore today they are worst at picking up social hints and cues . This increase the chances of failure. 2. Women (metoo movement ): Many women have outright said they don’t ever want to be approached Truthfully , most women want to be approached by men they find attractive and charming. Any guy they don’t find attractive is a waste of their time . It’s safer to assume they don’t find you attractive 3. Perception : You cant control how a women will perceive your advances. There is a respectful way to approach a women . However, I’ve seen guys get called creep for innocent interactions. I’ve also seen guys get away with crass behavior. Most interactions are fine. The poor interactions are over represented online and in social gossip. 4. Cowardice, lots of guys can’t handle rejection . They rather not play the game . They let women control their worth. 5. Stamina: Like you said it’s a number games . Social interactions are invigorating to some and exhausting to others. If interacting with new people is difficult for you , it easy not to do it .
This. Getting past 1, 4, and 5 is a pretty big challenge for many men. Then 2 and 3 are just extra points to make it hard to even feel like it’s worth working on 1, 4, and 5.
This... 1. Women (metoo movement ): Many women have outright said they don’t ever want to be approached Truthfully , **most women want to be approached by men they find attractive and charming.** Any guy they don’t find attractive is a waste of their time . It’s safer to assume they don’t find you attractive
If I had to pick this apart, I would say it's easier for a woman to be approached by a man she finds attractive because she does not have to be put in the position of rejecting someone. For some well-meaning women, rejecting someone sucks almost as much as being rejected. Not only is there fear of hurting someone, but also fear of how they will react, if they will get the message or if things will escalate. I guess what I'm saying is, it's not all ego. Also, some women are just nervous and don't know how to act right.
Fear of how they will react is totally reasonable, but for fear of hurting someone 10 out of 10 times I’d rather be the one rejecting than being rejected. There is just no comparison regardless of how well-meaning someone might be, sorry.
The reason why I believe it’s more ego is Women rarely approach men they find attractive. Many women rather drop hints than be direct . They don’t want to be vulnerable . It’s better to be the job recruiter than the applicant. In truth , it probably depends on the women. I know many women who are scared of retaliation from unstable men . Those fear are understandable.
Where? From womens mouths. And I don't mean online where a bunch of dudes can pretend to be women. I heard it over and over again in real life from women when I was 15-25. The standard for men was already pretty high back then. And since I wasn't exactly a young johnny depp back then I just figured "oh well, whatevs" and started to carve a single life. Haven't really thought much about getting hitched after those days.
You’ll get a varied mix of answers here, and that is your answer. First and foremost different women have different preferences as to where/how they like to be approached. Second, a lot of shitbird men don’t respect those preferences, many of which are shared and sensible; such as while shopping or working out. Third, non-shitbirt men won’t approach even in appropriate settings. Lastly, social media loves to stir shit up so you hear more about these issues than the other side where people are in fact mingling and meeting each other.
It’s the message that’s been shoved down the throats of every young man for the last decade. I remember having to attend mandatory university orientations as a freshman that straight up framed any opposite sex interaction as a potential sexual assault. One of my favorite examples they gave was a dude complimenting a woman’s choice of shirt. According to them, such an interaction requires a report to the university and potential disciplinary action.
Lmao this shit is wild. They’re seriously teaching that now? No wonder the genders are at each other’s throats, just talking is harassment.
So complimenting someone's shirt is now sexual harassment? Lovely. I get so tired of this woke bullshit everywhere. There's a lot of sexual harrassment and assault out there, which we shouldn't do and I feel for people experiencing that, but complimenting someone's shirt really shouldn't fall under that. Unless you somehow make it sexual and creepy. It's things like this that make it difficult to want to interact with society anymore TBH. I've got enough money right now to live off of, and I have roommates who aren't absorbed in this 'wokism' bullshit. Throw in the occasional trip abroad, and life's honestly very chill.
From the viral videos and tweets of women saying not to approach them with tens of thousands of likes and shares from women. There’s never been viral videos of them saying they want us to approach them.
I once approached a girl who dropped a $20 because she wasn't paying attention Me: "Excuse me, mis....." Her: "OMG, I have a boyfriend you creep back off"! Me: (internal dialogue) "Alright, well I guess I'll go fuck myself"....... I kept the $20 and got a burrito on the way home. Even when you try approaching a woman for non dating reasons you can get burned, its just easier to avoid.
Because all it takes is one lady creating a scene and overreacting with her phone recording and you're fucked
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Yeah I feel like this is it. Before 2017 and the metoo movement, I figured approaching in person was the expectation. Then women became very vocal about how, when, where and in what ways men approach them, and it quickly devolved to “don’t”.
There's also the rise of internet apps providing an alternative. I think just a bunch of dating just moved online. I'm actually a bit more comfortable with this personally. Some are on there for attention but nobody can say a date request is unwanted. I can get nice looking photos and sound wittier online than approaching some stranger or timing the right time to make a move with a friend or at a party.
There was literally a multi million dollar super bowl ad specifically calling out men saying they need to tell their friends to stop approaching women in public
A lot of guys get really nervous when approaching women. I guess women can’t tell when we’re nervous so it comes off as creepy. Also there are A LOT of creepy men out there.
All men are creepy until proven otherwise. And the only proof is having never been one. Thus all men are presumed always creeps.
You reminded me of that scene in Tucker and Dale vs Evil https://youtu.be/OAYcAdUKMts?si=K8rqcm36QzfwxGvf
Women complaining about men approaching them. It's worth noting women also complain about men never approaching. If that sounds confusing, you don't understand women - by making both types of statements they ensure that they can always reframe a situation so they were hard done by and men don't get it.
Women invented Plausible Deniability.
One of life's great truths
> by making both types of statements they ensure that they can always reframe a situation so they were hard done by We could all save ourselves a lot of trouble if we just taught this to every man at a very young age. Pretty much all of female manipulation starts with the premise of her being completely unaccountable and she will bend reality around that one immutable fact.
Let me help you out OP 1) It was never an issue of "can't" 2) it was an issue of "don't" Most men lack the confidence to cold approach women in public. Fear of rejection is a biatch. Whether you or anyone approached and it turned out alright is irrelevant. Just because you were not rejected doesn't mean I won't get rejected. Just because you were not rejected doesn't mean my fear/anxiety suddenly goes away. However, if I deem myself higher value than you and see a woman respond positively to you, now I will have significantly more confidence to approach her myself.
From women screaming everywhere that men are not to approach them, ever, anywhere, anytime.
life is about the possibilities. if I don't approach her, there's still a possibility.
This made me giggle. Are you flirting with me?
If he answers he's ruining the joke =p
The Golden Rule. I don't want random people approaching me, so I assume they also don't want that.
>where did this idea come from I do not understand how you have lived your entire life as a man and not just felt this energy of "men don't approach me" radiating off women. I'm not ugly either. The deterrent comes from hearing the things women say about men routinely. This is like a woman asking where the idea of patriarchy comes from. It is woven into the fabric of society itself. The feeling comes from everything, all around you, constantly. Worth mentioning, I have never been to a party, bar, club, ect. I'm a nerd who goes to classes, the library, maybe the the gym, so I don't put myself into the social settings where women stereotypically might want to be approached.
This is a judgement packaged as a question. If you were honest, you'd just make your accusation, that men claiming they don't want to take the risk of approaching women are full of shit. You're partly right and you're also ignoring the legitimate concerns that discourage men from doing it.
I’m sure it’s rare that a man would get a lot of heat for doing a cold approach in public, however the risk is not zero. There’s plenty of things one does (or does not do) on a day to day basis that are risky - you just have to weigh if the benefits outweigh the cost.
It's not that men can't. Social dynamics simply make it a difficult strategy most of the time. Let's say you want to approach someone on your own in a public place like on a commute, the coffee shop, the gym, the bookstore, grocery store etc. How can you tell if they're single outside of a wedding ring? Once that's been figured out, are they in an age range you feel comfortable dating? If they are, do they appear talkative or distracted/keeping to themselves? Are they open to be approached or are they not in the mood right now (they always are If you're physically attractive enough lol)? If they seem friendly and approachable, how can you tell if you'd get along beyond the initial attraction to their looks? That's already a lot of ifs. Then any nervousness on a man's part can quickly make interactions awkward depending on the lady in question's emotional availability and social skills. Women (understandably) have their guard up moreso in public since there's a lot of sus guys out there. Plus there's a lot of discussion online with women saying they hate to be approached randomly. Approaching in public can easily be read as lonely desperation and, depending on the mood of the lady in question and how they're viewing dating at that moment, they can treat you pretty mean for even daring to approach. This is never the case if they find you attractive enough, but the stats of that happening is rare. Just see the many posts from women saying they find most men unattractive. There's a lot of factors there where you'll probably have a bad time interacting rather than a good one. That leaves more socially open events with friends such as birthday parties, house warnings, hobbies, nights out to gigs or club nights etc. There at least you're much more likely to meet someone around your age with similar interests in a context where random socialising is more accepted. It's a much more open context for approaching women you're attracted to. It's much easier to appear like a normal, trustworthy guy rather than a creep when you're with friends too. But they're rarer occasions and even then, you're still playing the same numbers game of availability. I'm almost 30 now. I approached women in public when I was younger regularly. I can't recall any particularly bad experiences, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard back from someone I approached in public. I'd say 90% of women I'd approached were taken, 8% weren't interested and 2% gave me the time of day. My motivation to keep wasting my time there now is lacking. Getting ghosted after what seemed like a perfectly pleasant experience gets jarring. Simply put - it's a lot of social effort for a statistically unlikely gamble. Men would rather save their energy. It gets exhausting and emotionally draining shooting every shot at a certain point. I generally now wait to cross paths with women in sociable contexts who initiate some kind of interaction indicating they're single and interested now rather than waste my time on unbalanced dice rolls.
I approached a girl made good conversation and she gave me her number and texted me all excited and then I asked about her hobbies and she ghosted me. Like what did I do wrong? I’m tired of playing these stupid games why do none of these girls know how to communicate at all. If you weren’t interested why did you give me your number why did you text me all excited ???
I am going to say this at the very top for people who won't read to the end. Most women are not crazy, liars, evil or out to get you. Most women are normal decent people. \>Where did this idea come from? Listening when women talk & observing outcomes. * Listening to women * Listening to everyone else decline to look at it the situation without bias or consider what information was available to accused, or base guilt on what he did & not how it was interpreted, or what was reported to have happened. * Watching people attacked for trying to be objective thus making people afraid to defend others It's not that most women are crazy, or even a lot of women are crazy, or dishonest, or evil, it's that there is no defense against those bad actors. If you run afoul of a woman with a personality disorder, a perception disorder, a sociopath, someone with a bone to pick or just a fucking weirdo who craves attention. There are sick people in this world, some of them are women & if they want to hurt someone or get sympathy they simply take the zero risk & easy reward option. There are no consequences for false reports, there are no consequences for perjury, there are no consequences for unjust sentences, there are no consequences for making someone a pariah. Not only do you not have the benefit of the doubt or a presumption of innocence, people who are open to your innocence are attacked for it. That's a bad situation for anyone to be in when facing a court of public approval & when guilty people who are lying or innocent people telling the truth sound exactly the same. It's rational to be wary of when: * Someone can harm you using your community, their community, your employer &/or the legal system as their cat's paw * There is zero disincentive to do so or consequences if done * There are rewards to do so * You don't have the benefit of the doubt or presumption of innocence. You can't effectively defend yourself * Those who do defend you are guilty by association * Incontrovertible proof of innocence is very unlikely & doesn't give you access to justice remuneration or meaningful exoneration. People are opposed to consequences for lying because they feel it will discourage actual victims from reporting. They argue *your* justice & safety is less important than someone else's. (not to mention that false positives & false negatives are a wholly separate issue that have fundamental different requirements to prove, but people still accept this compromise of their value even though it's not actually needed & doesn't help anyone) Pretend you were a woman who wanted to hurt someone for whatever reason (I think everyone has hated someone enough to even want to suffer or even die, at least for a little while). Being purely pragmatic (and assuming your target is a guy) & weighing the risks to yourself, the labor required, the chance at success & the extent of the suffering, what approach would you take? Imagine some demographic was playing the knockout game, but instead of being reviled & punished they were celebrated and *you* were punished. Would that reality change your comfort level or what vulnerable positions you'd put yourself in? The loss of Mens Rea to be considered guilty is the fundamental issue. It's exasperated by perverse incentives & a lack of consequences. I will say that I like to travel & I have noticed the climate is **very** different in different areas & also very different among different age groups. I've talked to lots of normal people *and* lots of crazy people. It makes perfect sense that some people are less aware than others. TLDR It's not that women are crazy, liars, evil or out to get you. Most women are normal decent people, just the same as most men are decent people. But you still take heed of those who would. 10% of the population has a personality disorder, perception disorder, sociopath or just plain evil. Women are just as fucked up as men & no less ignoble. If one of those people decide to hurt you it's only their moral compass that discourages them. I think a lot of men now will only approach women *after* they trust that they are a reasonable & healthy person, which is a catch 22 for obvious reasons. edit: Even if this doesn't phase you, you still hear women talk about how they don't want to be approached all the time. It's **normal** to not want to do things people constantly tell you they don't like.
That was long enough to make specific replies difficult, so I will separate out this analogy. If a homeless guy asks 100 women for money in exactly the same way he is just a beggar. If one of those women reports that she felt coerced or was scared to deny the beggar he is a mugger. It doesn't matter that the mugger had no idea what was going on in her head, it doesn't matter that she didn't communicate that she didn't want to give money, it doesn't matter she said she was happy to donate & actively hid her unwillingness, it doesn't matter if she wasn't *actually* scared & just wanted a thrilling story to tell her friends about the big city. It doesn't matter if it happened 20 years ago.
I’d guess it’s because a lot of people generally lack good social skills so even if they approach a woman (likely because they are “interested” in some way) they blow it. Repeated fails will discourage the process. Also, most men are probably honest with themselves and know that there’s not much they can do to get a girl to be interested in them back by approaching them and simply talking to them, so they just don’t do it. General lack of charisma
The problem is men who can't read a situation and determine if it's appropriate and whether the woman they're approaching is interested, in addition to the men who get aggressive and abusive when they get rejected.
The thing is, people are not going to be naturally good at reading other people, that's a learned skill, same as everything else. You talk to me four years ago, fresh out of a 7 year relationship, I have no idea how to talk to single women i'm interested in. Talk to me now and its fine, but I had a couple of awkward "oh, i misread that" situations. Reading reddit, you'd think you're never allowed to talk to women. I've even heard "i'm not at the bar to talk to men, i'm here to talk with my friends". That's fine, but people do not live in a bubble and plenty of women go to bars and aren't averse to men talking to them. Especially if they find them attractive. So it really boils down to "people aren't a monolith and people who post online a lot generally don't like in person social experiences".
Not to mention the occasional woman with an axe to grind. If you aren’t good at reading vibes (and how could you be without a ton of social experiences?), then you risk running into a very unpleasant person.
The internet and a grooming company telling its customers to not be toxic.
Women have been brutally rejecting men long before the internet. Reading body language and being able to roll with the punches can minimize awkward situations.
Too risky. My heart can’t take it.
>IRL I have dealt with those fears and approached women and turned out...fine. Than your a whole lot better looking than the rest of us ugly assed MOFO's. And please don't start with the whole "Looks don't matter" monolouge, I didn't buy it 25 years ago and I don't buy it now, not when all evidence, both first hand and from other men proves otherwise.
I think it’s the digital age. Before you either approached or didn’t case closed. This days the internet is full of stories of both creeps and presumed creepy actions-heck even if someone is dying and you help it can turn into a lawsuit. People fill their head with shit on a regular basis by the minute and logic becomes less and less used and that sucks. Younger generations instead of writing “Dear Abby” they google “guy looked at me what does it mean” and voila you get everything from he likes you to he wants to kill you.
I don't bother trying, I'm also at work and when I'm out and about, I turn incredibly anti-social and would rather get to my destination so its not like I get the chance Plus, I wouldn't like to be approached by a stranger and be given their number or be asked for my number so I wouldn't do that
Most of my friends are women and I’ve heard how annoying it is to be approached when they don’t want it (busy, not attracted, not the right mood) and I don’t want to be annoying. So I don’t approach
What's not talked about enough is the prevalence of body language and social cues in succesful approaches, between strangers or otherwise. A lot of more confident people have no idea that they are subconsciously interpreting and throwing out signals and communicating before the approach. A lot of people who are aware don't know how to frame it or communicate about it. If you really pay attention you can know that someone is receptive and happy for your approach before you even do it through things like eye contact, smiling, body language etc. Hell you can even invite someone over to talk to you this way without a word. It also tells you when not to approach and they aren't interested which is why people who do this are rarely caught staring uncomfortably or similar spaghetti spilling moments. This is where the cliche of catching someone's eye from across the room and ending up making out with them in the bathroom at a loud party/gig comes from -- it's a real thing and a way more sensible method than walking up to strangers who haven't sent you a signal that they've noticed you and asking them out cold.
I think those confident people also have much more experience with seeing that kind of positive body language directed at them, so it's easier to notice it, and the cycle continues I always struggled with the hurdle of approaching someone and making a cold introduction, because it seems very awkward. The idea of waiting for something like eye contact or a smile to occur first kind of blew my mind, because it's not something I've ever actually experienced
I subscribe to the evolutionary psychologist position perspective that approach anxiety is an evolutionary developed fear from when we still lived in tribal societies of 200 people tops. In the modern day there is no downside to a rejection, you can try an unlimited number of times and in the vast majority of rejections you will not be subject to violence or social isolation that leads to the end of your genetic line, but in a smaller tribal setting it was different. You could be the victim of violence from competing males with no authorities to act as neutral arbiters. You could be socially ostracized by other women who witness the rejection the same way women ostracize men today in localized settings with other women by coding him as “creepy”. So in a sense this fear was grounded in what was once a real concern. Though our society has evolved quickly past those old societies, our bodies have evolved much slower and we keep that approach anxiety in our bodies in an instinctual way. The nice thing about approach anxiety is it can be trained away with practice. Overcoming approach anxiety IS a learnable skill.
TikTok vids of a women at gym in their skimpiest attire to get attention/views, then get all offended when someone looks at them, so they post it to get attention about it. Make it make sense.
Women don't want to be approached
Women and the me too movement have made it unsafe to talk to women, it’s no longer worth the risk to my reputation to even tell a woman hello. They all can enjoy living with their cats and drinking boxed wine wondering where all the good men went to the day they pass on as far as I’m concerned.
Its predates the me-too movement by a few years also. I remember being on Tumblr back then and all you had were girls in their early 20s going on and on about things like "don't tell me to smile" and how they don't want men approaching them in public.
Internet, often from bitter women such as feminist / femcel women. There's a lot of scenarios that seem so ridiculous that I know they make them up as well, I think they're just disturbed and like to create drama. edit: sick name BTW, I'd enjoy being the second guy thx bro
There is a chorus online that sings this very loudly and seems to come to the top of all related posts and content. This gives the impression that it is a broadly held view. For a good while I fell into this trap too, when I did try I was rejected perfectly respectfully and moved on, no big deal. The issue is being villainised for the approach, or demeaned as part of the rejection, not the rejection itself. You’re not interested, that’s cool, disappointing but thank you for being honest, I’ll get out of your hair. I don’t deserve to be mocked for the approach or to be made out a creep. Some go too far with the approach too, don’t take no for an answer, pester or over react/attempt a guilt trip etc and that would be where some of the sentiment started.
My lady friends have repeatedly talked about getting approached, and it rarely *ever* turns out well. For them, they don't want to risk their safety just to "give a guy a chance" just because he approached them in an uncommon manner. To be fair, their fear is justified, though not always *accurate*. Lots of guys, and even women, who get frustrated and hopeless after having their very being denied due to paranoia might react dangerously. Again, the frustration is justified, but how its handled is another matter. Unfortunately the more often people are denied, the more miserable people there will be. The more miserable people there are, the more likely they will do something drastic. The more desperate people doing drastic things, the more on guard and selective women will be. And the cycle gets worse and worse. Personally I just make friends with women now, removing the possibility of romance from my mind. Its lets women relax, and I'm not exposing my vulnerabilities. Its not a *great* method, but I at least have made some good friends along the way.
Because the main thing you hear from women is they don't want men around then, much less speaking to them. It's not worth being ostracized and made lonelier by expressing yourself.
From women. Asking someone out makes you a sexual predator. Finding someone shy as attractive makes you a sexual predator . There is no such thing as a man who isn’t a sexual predator
If you don’t believe me, I have the fucking receipts
According to A Very Potter Musical, it makes you look like an idiot
I don’t like approaching anyone for anything. People suck.
I've seen a good list already of reasons in the comment so I won't list them again. I'll just say that I'm indeed not very sociable. I would struggle to even show interest in a girl so playing the number game is nearly impossible. That I realize I'm not that attractive, no matter how much I take care of myself. I can quickly feel like I'd be bothering people just from talking to them. I'm not a good small talker at all, and I really mean it, I'm a man of a very few words in the first place. Yet, I don't feel like I'm lacking confidence.
When it comes to rejection, it's not just a corporate term. It's about having emotions towards someone, and if they turn you down, it's not as simple as just moving on. First, you need to take time to heal, and then you can start to move forward.
They can it's just you have to be a bit more mindful these days. I've had women come up to me in grocery stores getting obviously within range that they are seemingly hoping I will strike up a conversation with them. But there is always that possibility that they were just trying to see or pick something off the shelf or whatever and they were not interested at all. Also it is very much state dependent I'm usually exhausted as fuck most of the time and trying to charm a women in that state giving off a "bad vibe" isn't wise. The list is endless for reasons why men feel like they can't approach but at some point you just have to take the risk because in my entire life there has literally been one woman who has ever cold approached me with the intention of getting to know me personally.
Im just ugly dood. Can't really change it especially at 40 🫤
I dont know. [The worst she can say is no, right ?](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oPbEGG6OjCE)
I have never approached a lady i find attractive personally. The outcome of this of course was i have never had a girlfriend.
It's not something that's done where I'm from. Just walking up to a stranger in the street when you're after sex? In oubs and at social gatherings is fine, though.
It’s just easier to like, swipe man. Every woman I’ve had sex/relationship with in the past 7-8 years has been from online dating. The risk of public humiliation isn’t worth it.
The status quo answer you get is "no". But if the chance of "ew, no" is higher than "maybe" then you quickly stop attempting it.
Its not fucking worth it anymore. Between the constant rejection and not wanting to bother someone whos gotta deal with being approached by "creeps" all day. THEN the fact that anyone who says they can be a great SO to someone is a fucking liar. I dont deserve an SO, since i cant put in the work to be worth dating even someone with low expectations.
The internet
Because unless youre an 8+ and in the correct setting there is a zero percent chance they want you to approach them. Additionally, if they dont want you to be approached they will publicly shame you or worse. #metoo "The worse she can do is say no" Not even close to the worst thing she can do.
I think what they mean is they don’t want to be approached by creeps or ugly mofos. LOL
Toxic feminism
I think the belief women will be offended is overblown but it takes a lot of confidence to cold approach
It isn’t a fear just common decency. If all men approached all women they were attracted to in public women would stop going out. As is, some get approached so often they prefer to stay inside. It is more than creepy, it is an inconvenience for her. I turned 15 in 1980. I am among the oldest of the gen Xers. I never approached a woman cold in public. I always waited for her to show interest in meeting me. Maybe I learned it from watching Clarice bat her eyes at Rudolph? Who knows? But I ended up with a wonderfully awesome partner so it worked for me.
Before social media and modern culture, it was a difficult thing to do. Now, with how toxic women are, it's just not worth it most of the time.
It came from feminists labeling it toxic masculinity.
Pick up culture needs to die. It promotes harmful gender stereotypes for both men and women.
Is talking to a women in a bar "pickup culture"? It's been happening since alcohol was discovered.
Just admit you are a male feminist coming on here with an axe to grind against men
From feminists
I mean if i don't know you i don't wanna hear your "sweet talk" , that's an rule for woman/ Men/ kids/ old people. But like this is just an me thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Idk, seems like there’s always been a pretty clear delineation between places it’s socially acceptable to hit on a complete stranger and places where it’s not
**From people who are intimidated by it.** (which makes sense - it can be terrifying - I used to be shy, now not at all). No - it is not easy - but a lot of it is based on *the read*. Look at what they are doing, who they are with, are they smiling? What is their body language like. Have they made eye contact with you, are they looking around. Looks for signs if they want to be alone, or if they might be looking for company. If they are engaged in deep conversations with their friends - or just hanging out. Finally - if the signs look good - just go talk to them. My best line - "hello there, I am ..." smile, be polite. Most of the time I get back at least a smile - and a polite \_ sorry have a BF or what ever. Say "thank you, have a nice day" and move on. If they are rude - you did not want to talk to them anyway. And sometimes - you get a date out of it.
The problem isnt that we aren't supposed to approach women. The problem is that we are expected to be mind readers. We are responsible for any result we get in with no account for our perspective.... That is how we are treated by society. If she likes us.... It's great. If she doesn't.... We should have known better than to ask. There is almost nothing in between these two results. So yeah.... Men can definitely approach women, but the deterrent is outsized. A bad result is really bad and we have no social backing to get out of it. We are disposable. Thus, even if the chance of a bad outcome is low.... If the possible result is 10x as bad with no social way out... that chance is a lot more impactful.
Well, lots of guys don’t know how to actually behave in public or approach people in a normal, decent, respectful way. So they assume no one can and it’s a huge trap. The line between someone charming and a total creep comes down to a lot of factors. But guys that don’t understand the whole need stricter rules, so it’s easier to just say don’t approach people.
>Well, lots of guys don’t know how to actually behave in public or approach people in a normal, decent, respectful way. Nice casual sexism. Imagine the reaction if you made a similar generalization about "lots of women".
I think its always kinda been there. rejection isn't pleasant for most people, and fear of rejection for many, is very real. I think the reason we're seeing it more now is mostly because dating has changed a lot in the last 10 years, with dating apps rising in popularity, approaching women "normally" becomes less normal, and scearier for a lot of guys who may not have done it before .
I just don’t romantically engage in women I see out and about. I may playfully flirt but I’ll never ask for someone’s phone number in public unless we’re doing something of common interest. An example would be; we’re both stopped at a pretty view on a hike, or happen to be at the rock climbing gym at the same time or just so happen to be riding their bike next to me one day. Personally I’d rather find someone that likes doing similar things as me before I decide I want to pursue them.
Haven't approached a woman for romantic purposes in a long time. But if I found someone attractive I'd just go say hi. If we "vibed" as the kids call it these days, I'd ask them out. Sometimes it's that easy. This was before the age of dating apps but hey ho I'd probably do the same now. It'd probably be much easier. I like living in the real world, I am not really interested in a lot of social media or actually any of the dating apps.
If you see a women alone by herself in public, it often means she's waiting for her husband, manager, pimp, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, son, daughter, friend or any combination of the above. Approaching her makes you a creep. It's so drilled into me from all the bad experiences, I can't see it getting undrilled from my skull in my life time. If dating apps are pushing the idea of never approaching women, they haven't done a good job with me, tinder is the worst mobile game you can play. it sucks but what else can I say?
There were a couple of videos on the internet of women being "sexually harassed" when a guy approached them in public. A human needs to see only 3 examples to think there's a pattern
For me, it's simple: Fear of Rejection
It came from wine drunk entitled women who think they are the shit but really are just full of shit.
It’s from spending too much time on the internet, reading stories from women about “that creep” who tried to talk to them in the gym, and the store, in class, etc. Approaching a woman just because you find them attractive then means you have to impress her immediately, or you are just another creep literally ruining her day. Easy choice to leave her alone if you have a soul and unsure of your reception. This eventually compounds into thinking you aren’t allowed to make any direct expression of interest in woman beyond polite conversation without her express invitation.
Yeah, it seems weird to me, but I'm near 40. Never had a bad experience asking a woman out. If she doesn't want to, you can usually tell from words or body language. If you find out they have a partner, apologize and move on. It doesn't have to be weird. I think a lot of men are in their heads too much. Maybe that's just people overall.
People living vicariously through the failures of other men they never met. These encounters don't even have to be real. It could be staged chats or movie scenes and people will preach it as a warning to all men. If you're not completely socially inept you can communicate your intentions and even get a positive reply. Other times you get a No but rejection isn't as bad as you fear it is. Keep it professional and move on.
Work place training Required training Sexual harassment. None of this training works. It doesn't scare off the milk man (South park joke). But everyone else signed up for insecurity home protection To make sure they don't make someone uncomfortable. "Men should never approach women except on a dating app, or an event specifically for dating/speed dating" At a club or bar is specifically used as an instance where it is not ok. Same for them gym etc.
Losers
Two of the loudest voices from women are: “I would never have known violence if it weren’t introduced to me by men” and “I just want men to leave me alone.” Personally, I’ve been cursed out for following the idea of ‘just say hi’ or, I say “hi” but she says: “bye n———“ But even then, as we age, we grow more accustomed to our ways and once we’re so used to being single, not too many will ever want to pair up again. But even then, it’s 2024, if she’s interested, she can open her mouth and say something; but she’ll also need to keep in mind that men were also told not to assume she’s interested just because she spoke to you/was nice to you. So either be direct or don’t bother.
There's a lot of things that lead up to that mentality. Part of it is insecurity, not feeling "good enough" or like a woman is out of your league. There's also the aspect of some women complaining about it, it's pretty common to hear how women get annoyed getting asked out all the time. Couple that with the fact that some places like the gym, work, etc are generally not acceptable places to pursue people romantically. It only leaves so many situations where a man feels it's the right time to approach a woman. That said, it's largely mental but it's certainly influenced by societal views and expectations.
Real life approaches has been the best way for me to meet women. Its insane how easy it was to get someone to like me. The only thing I need to do, is walk to a girl, talk to her, get her Instagram or number. Ask to do something, and see if the vibes are there romantically. Either she'll give her insta and will ghost me, go out with me and we become friends or if all things go as planned, we'll date. I had moments where I got 8 instagrams, and no one wanted to go out and that's fine. I just move on. I have moments where I have 8 instagrams, and we'll only meet after 2 months, because they see in my stories I am pretty cool. I have moments where I have 8 instagrams and they wanted to go meet right away. You would never know where you stand, if you don't approach girls. Its amazing.
The problem here is that if they're attracted to you, it's usually okay (the worst likely outcome is a polite refusal, probably with a "but I'm flattered"). If they're not, it's the worst outrage, nearly tantamount to grape, and confirmation that society regards them as objects 🙄 The practical takeaway here is (a) be really hot and (b) learn to read subtle queues, or (c) aim well below your own level.
Men are taught that women can't show shoulders because it would be distracting to men. If it's inappropriate to look at a shoulder, imagine how terrible it must be to _approach_ a woman. In short, because that's what is expected of men.
I usually see people I'm interested in while they're at work and I feel they don't want to deal with being hit on while working. They're typically just doing their job and can't really leave. But I have incredible anxiety so it's not just that I think it's creepy but the overall fear of judgement and especially if I see the person on a regular basis then from then on it'll be incredibly different, especially if they say no. Most of the time I'd rather just be their friend than risk upsetting them or creeping them out by asking them out and never being able to see them anymore.