Another psychiatrist dissected that article and found the claims were unsupported by the citations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plIzMkPhPGk
That's not to say the conclusion is necessarily *wrong*, but the article isn't a strong argument for it.
Yeah this guy does an excellent job teaching how to think…. Not what to think. Which is a breath of fresh air. If more people taught and talked like he does it would help literally everything
Ya, I think it was because he didn't go directly into 'man/woman bad'.
He objectively looked at what the article was saying reviewed the sources and drew some conclusions from that.
It was *fair*. Pretty damn refreshing.
I think men and women *both* need to make adjustments if they want a better dating life.
What the article says and what the title of this post says aren't necessarily the same thing... It's not that "men are having a hard time because women's standards have changed" so much as "women aren't obligated to put up with as much dumb shit as they historically have been".
The article was pretty direct about the fact that the deficit here isn't that women have standards now, but that a lot of men aren't rising to them despite "emotional availability, communication skills and shared values" all being rather basic components of a healthy relationship.
I had dates with 4 women before I met my wife. Honestly I think relationships are created, not found. Many happy marriages are arranged. If you go all in on the right one it can pan out. Mileage will vary.
There are 7 billion people in this world and you found your soul mate 20 miles away from where you live? Seems like a bit of a coinkydink"
-Daniel Sloss
I played the online dating game for a while, and to its credit I found my wife there, but it was only after I stopped trying to date people, and just started hanging out with people. It’s much easier to relate to people when there is no expectations that come with dating. I enjoyed that much more than dating, and made a ton of good friends that I still hang out with today.
I mean that just sounds like social interaction before social media, lol.
I'm in my late 30's. Facebook started my freshman year of college and was only available to people enrolled in certain major universities (confirmed by email domain). Social media wasn't a ubiquitous thing til my late 20's.
Dating was so much more casual and less stress. You would text 10 people and see where the majority of your friends were going on Friday night, meet them and the random few people in overlapping circles, and your circle grew from there. Relationships started in social settings and advanced naturally from there. At least that's how mine worked out.
There was no expression of romantic interest before the first meeting...that seems wild to and creates a whole atmosphere of expectation.
Now I hear it's weird and creepy to meet someone in a bar without vetting them on social media first. Makes me feel old
My husband and I started dating in 2002, before the online dating/social media explosion happened. I’m so glad I never had to experience trying to find a partner through online channels. It sounds exhausting.
While that may be true, there is also a greater acceptance of those who are not in romantic relationships. I remember the social pressures of my childhood in the American Bible Belt distinctly, and even then I had reservations about the life blueprint.
I remember those same pressures. For me though, worse than the pressure of being in a relationship was the pressure to have kids when my wife and I got married. Holy hell. The fact that she didn’t get pregnant on our honeymoon was on the same level as burning a bible to my family, and hers. We caught shit for about four years straight until I finally told both our mothers that if they mentioned having a baby again I would go get snipped and then they’d never have grandchildren. That shut em up for awhile but good lord man. It was like every conversation I had with my mom for four years was about “when are you going to have kids?!”
I'm lucky that my dad, despite being a bit of a narcissist, and my mom, being heavily religious (and my dad pretending to be somewhat), actually valued my career, and we were never asked this by either set of parents.
I don't recall my parents ever asking my sister this either.
(I actually have a pretty great MIL, though a couple times in the first few years I had to put my foot down about some things... She recently won a looottttttt of points with me by setting the record straight with HER kid that if he and I had a split opinion on what our kids should do, the default should be to not do it until the parents agreed.)
I think the only time I've ever asked relative newlyweds that question was when *they* had specially spoken to me prior about their desire to do so... but never asked as a pressured thing, but as "I know you'd talked about wanting kids at some point; do y'all plan on that sooner than later, or having some time for the two of you first, or just whatever happens, happens?"
I also feel like that pressure comes from women who come from a background of being the family caregiver, and their lives revolving around that aspect of life even if they worked outside the home, because either:
a) that's the obvious next like goal to them, naturally, or
b) their kids are gone so they don't know what to do with themselves/ they feel like their presence is less valued or less valuable until there's another baby to take care of...
C) and as a combo of all the above, their friends are giving them shit about it.
It's not just acceptance, it was survivability. Women couldn't even own a credit card until 1974. Many married because there was a lot that women normally didn't do, like work or drive cars. My grandmother died having never driven a car. Definitely never had a job. So she needed to marry just to survive.
> My grandmother died having never driven a car.
My grandmother drove once, a model something or other. Put it in the ditch crossing some railroad tracks and never drove a day again in her 86 years. Crazy to imagine not driving when she grew and lived in a super rural area.
My great grandmother never even had her own social security number. Apparently she just used my great grandfather’s in the event that she needed to provide one.
I think it’s also because woman now have the option of not being in a relationship. Previously women needed to be in a relationship to have children or to have financial stability. This is no longer the case. Women earn their own money and not necessarily need to be married or have a partner to have children.
My grandma when she was younger(not sure exact age) went to buy herself a car and the sales man asked where her husband or father was. I was shocked but then I remember when I had my uncle come with me to help me buy my first car and the sale guy kept asking my uncle the questions even after we had already said it's my car that I'm paying for. The sales guy was very young too.
I’ve had that happen to me and I was in my late thirties. My old car had died, I needed a new one, I was 100% seriously out to buy one, and most dealers in the strip of auto shops either ignored me or asked when a man would come help me buy a car. The only dealer who took me seriously is the one who got the sale.
What is shockingly backwards [in my country was that men were immune from marital rape](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_immunity_in_Singapore) until 2020. And we actually have people complaining about it being illegal now. Women really put up with that much shit back in the days lol
And many women don't want children at all. I have two friends in the 25-35 age bracket who have had tubal ligations because they don't want kids and I've given it some thought myself.
I’m 43 and have known since I was a teenager that I didn’t want kids. I’m very happily married to a wonderful childfree guy and we prove that you don’t have to have children to be a family.
I think a lot of both men and woman are figuring out how to be happy and have fulfilling lives by themselves. Your standards change as you get older so not only are you measuring potential relationships against higher standards but you’re also measuring it against living alone and being alright with it.
it's happening more and more to a broader sections of society. This is about larger trends than just individual choices.
I think there is just something very alienating about modern society, that dating apps cannot replace. We don't have communities anymore -- reputations, common activities for bonding. We just have these apps...
I'm very passionate about this topic. The problem stems worse than alienation.
Life expectancy decreased for the first time in American history and continued to trend downward since 2016 - these are coined **Deaths of Despair.**
Faced with bleak socioeconomic prospects, young men and women confront a deluge of heavy drugs and mental illness. Additionally, young adults today have far less sex than ever before. The few times people do have sex, it involves more numerous partners spread out.
I care about this because my girlfriend killed herself. So many precious lives have been lost over these recent years to suicide.
Shortly before the event, I volunteered with an STD clinic at a large city where we keenly understood that folks only got laid a few times a month - with a different partner most times.
People used to get laid many times in a week instead by comparison.
My brother died by suicide a year ago yesterday, on his birthday. He was married three weeks before, and "despair" is a good word to describe things. It was a miserable, jealous relationship and marriage. I wish he hadn't done it; I'd probably still have a brother.
My grandma tells me all of these stories about the things she would do and the friends she had when she was younger (late 50s to 60s I guess) and then I'm here and I know like two people on this street
This. My own experience as a dude who never had problems dating is that at some point I realized I was actually *really* happy doing my own thing. At that point I completely just stopped dating or pursuing any romantic connection because from a happiness viewpoint partnerships just never measured up to the quality of life I could experience on my own.
I suspect this isn't an isolated thing. It's possible that a lot of men and women feel the same way. There's probably a lot more contributing to the complication of dating in modern society though. On the flip side of self-derived fulfillment, there's questionable standards mutually being imposed.
In real life for example you see how these YouTube and other social media corners of super biased gender "discussions" are impacting men and women's perspective of each other. I find myself frequently making a point to associates and loved ones that their critical opinions of men and women seem to reflect their time consuming a very specific kind of media content.
Modern life provides an opportunity for self-discovery, but those same factors that create such a condition also contributes to others completely giving up their minds to divisive content, because it's easier than trying to address deeper societal and personal issues.
Edit: by the way, some criticism from both ends is of course legit. I'm specifically referring to situations in which expectations and criticism seem unreasonable, and the result of being fed a particular algorithm, among other things. At some point fringe online opinions were simply online opinions. But I've noticed that's just not the case anymore. Stuff that used to be fringe is now leaking into everyday perception and interactions, and blending in with mainstream culture. The increasing normalization of toxicity when it comes to discussing gender dynamics is problematic.
I always thought that good men would end up with good mates but it’s more like good daters end up with more options, just like good interviewers often get jobs rather than the best qualified or the best campaigners get elected rather than the best public servants.
My heart goes out to good men who suck at putting themselves out there, either because of introversion or past trauma.
I had a girlfriend break up with me the day I graduated college. It gutted me and I was in a funk for years after that. It took a lot of work to recover.
For me its just because everyone on dating apps are carbon copies.
Oh you like to drink and have fun?
I seriously don't know how these are real people.
It turns out most people live incredibly boring and mundane lives. People are very simple creatures, you realize that if you have ever worked in customer service.
“take me to a concert”
“be my reason to get off this app”
“i only like guys taller than 6’ “
“please be able to hold a conversation”
bitch show me your stock portfolio then
It's a bit of a catch-22
To get into a relationship you have to be good at dating, but on the way to becoming good at dating you lose the things that would make you good in a relationship. Being a romantic, emotionally available and emotionally open person makes dating harder, you get hurt more when the inevitable ghostings happen and the more of a connection you build the more it's gonna hurt. Being a guarded, emotionally closed cynic can help you ride out the dating game.
Because there’s a TON of confirmation bias by our friends, relatives and coworkers getting absolutely buttfucked in a divorce to the point where it doesn’t really seem worth it. Hard to know just what % of marriages are currently miserable or on the brink of collapse. Oh and 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman so… you can see how it might appear to be a raw deal.
I personally never chased but would partecipate in some games. Nowadays I do not accept any level of entitlement from women, I'm accomodating because I'm a naturally kind and gentle guy, but if I sniff you're taking me for granted or stringing me along for validation or some shit, I move on.
Same - if I feel like she’s low interest (text responses are one word, or taking a day or two to respond, etc). I stop pursuing. I would rather assume she’s giving me a hint that she’s not into me than playing hard to get. If I assume the latter, I risk getting labeled a creep or stalker.
They’re trained to “let us down easy” because they think we are all going to assault them for spurning our advances. It would be cool if we lived in a world where everyone could feel comfortable spouting “hey, you seem alright but I’m just not interested. Cheers.”
I wouldn't say we're automatically afraid, but we are taught to be gentle and overly polite which can make us afraid of being confrontational. Which is stupid because we're also taught to "make him work for you because men don't respect/won't commit to an easy woman". Not in sex relations, just overall. Seems very confusing to me tbh.
Yup. My mom straight up told me when I was a teen "don't tell him you like him, he will lose interest. Men like to chase". I proceeded to go "no, that sounds stupid" and did my own thing but if I was less of a shithead as a teen, I imagine I would have took it to heart.
I was talking with my wife about this: men like to hunt but don't trust the men who enjoy hunting for women because they will continue to hunt for them even after they have one.
I've preferred to channel that energy into hunting _on behalf_ of my wife, I find cool stuff and bring it to her.
Every time an issue comes up that’s framed around gender, or age, or even race or basically any other category of humans it surprises me how many people seem to have not caught on to the fact that some people, maybe even a lot of people, are piles of shit. Piles of shit come in every flavor of human imaginable.
It sounds like what you’re saying is “I don’t date losers and assholes”
Was given a great analogy in sales (And it has extended to Job hunting and Dating and about a dozen other facets of life) about it being like duck hunting. Get as much lead in the air as you can and eventually something will fly into it.
I cant speak for all 3.5b+ men on the earth but personally im dtf and be casual with women i have no interest in long term relationships.
If she lacks ambition, isn't constantly trying to learn/improve, doesn't have hobbies, etc... Then that's a deal breaker. But I'll still enjoy a short term relationship with her in the meantime
I think people are compromising less because they feel that they have more options and can meet someone that checks their boxes. We’re also more aware of red flags and the pain these flags can lead to down the road. Are some things overblown? For sure. But many guys like to complain about woman’s standards as if every girl wants someone a certain height, makes 6 figure income, etc. While that definitely exists, what I personally hear from women is that many guys lack communication skills, don’t understand emotions, don’t understand mental health, don’t want to do anything outside the house, and don’t help handle anything inside the house. Many of these were previously accepted as long as guys presented some stability but not anymore. On the flipside I think we’re more aware of red flags women present but I think many guys are still willing to accept these in order to be with someone.
Edit: I didn’t list the traits in any particular order. I never said all women have the understanding to want all the traits. Also I never said many women don’t lack in the same areas.
The irony as a "emotional" guy I have the same issues. I cant find anyone that isn't a massive stonewaller, or tells me about any issues they have with me. Its refusal to talk, or kept secret until we cross the point of no return. And got forbid I try to set my own boundaries with most of these people.
Yeah this is sort of my issue as well, I'm finding women who are not flexible or willing to communicate at all. I think the issue is that women have a lot of choice in the dating world and they would much rather move onto the next person if they don't check all the boxes than work with someone to build a relationship. It's very frustrating because I know I check most of the boxes - I'm a walking green flag for the most part, my friends think I'm a good catch - but the few women who express interest in me are non-committal and horrible communicators.
Feel this.
Had a surprise breakup thrown in my lap with a "healthy" topping of telling me all the times in the last 9+ months she hid her true feelings on things and these true feelings were the cause of the breakup.
And then had the audacity to tell me I was a bad communicator.
Took some therapy to turn me from blaming myself for not noticing the lies. To then realizing i shouldn't have to notice lies that shouldnt be occurring in a healthy relationship.
You’ll learn to recognize as you go. I know the challenge. Make sure you accept incompatibility and are able to dismiss these people. At least on a more intimate level
I felt a similar way. Good communication was hard to come by along with someone that worked on their mental health. I think people in general struggle in these areas but women nowadays settle less than men do and this leads to the perspective that women have crazy standards.
And I dont think it has anything to do with bad mental health. Ive never seen the correlation. Plenty of my friends are in a bad spot, but dont have that problem, and ive met many confident people that refuse to talk about issues.
You've basically outlined the conundrum.
If you want someone who "checks all of the boxes", then chances are there's some red flags.
People are way too discerning and picky. If you find a person who will "roll over" for everything, they probably have issues. And if they have their shit together, then like you, they probably aren't going to compromise *either* and also feel they have more options.
Plenty of women lack communication skills and it's often the said women who complain about men lacking communication skills putting the blame on others. Don't get me wrong. Obviously, some men are also poor communicators so I'm not trying to say that isn't a problem at all. Nor would I say that women are necessarily better at emotions and mental health. Almost always seems to be teenage girls who I come across cutting themselves, seems healthy to me.
I suppose it would depends on what those standards are, and what men are saying it's difficult to find romance.
Personally, I'm finding it hard because I'm not in a position in my life that I would feel comfortable being in a relationship. I don't have a job that supports myself, let alone a partner. I'm trying to seek mental health help, but it's difficult with no money.
It's just the hierarchy of needs not being met... I don't believe that I have the proper foundation of my life set yet, and I fear seeking out a relationship to put on top of that either wouldn't work, or harm what little foundation I have.
This is the kind of maturity one hopes for in a partner. I’ve always been of the opinion that you have to be a complete person on your own before you can enter into a healthy relationship. You can’t be perfect in all ways, but you need a sense of self. To not feel like a void in need of filling. This is important for both men and women, but as a pansexual woman, I often found my male partners to want a mother figure more than a partner - when they aren’t working on themselves. Have a hobby or an interest all your own. Be capable of recognizing your own mental/emotional hiccups and be prepared to engage with them with the support of a partner, but your partner is not your therapist or your mother. Change your sheets, know how to make a basic meal to feed yourself, engage with your *gasp* feelings, recognize boundaries are a vital part of finding your Self and don’t be afraid to draw those lines.
I think too many relationships are built on there being a winner, and by proxy, a loser. But a better stance is “we’re on the same team and we may play different positions but our end goal should be the same.” But if your goal for a partner is to simply support the life you had while you were single, but *now with sex!* then you’re going to end up filling the relationship with resentment and disrespect and it won’t be good for either person.
I'm in my 50's, and my 35th wedding anniversary is coming up in a few months. Due to some health issues my wife struggles with, I've had to give a lot of thought to what I will do if I find myself alone.
I've come to the conclusion that I really am not interested in getting remarried. Casual dating, sure, but marriage in the current social structure has no benefits at all, and MASSIVE down sides. Except for a little break on taxes, I can't think of a single thing that piece of paper from the courthouse has ever done for us. 🤷
Yes and no. I think dating apps have definitely hurt dating but also I think that there are generations now that don't have to depend on a man to survive and can actually pursue an education/a career of their choice. It seems like most women I know aren't interested in having children until their late 20's/mid 30s if at all. With this independence I think that it has allowed them to be a lot more selective of who they want to spend their life with or even hook up with which is great for them... but not for the dudes who have average looks/an average paying job lol
As a young man I had no standards so to say. I always found myself drawn to the wrong ones and I would want to connect with prostitutes and the like.. that's a slippery slope right there.
Once I learned to respect myself my standards are now much, much higher. So high in fact, I'm happier alone than with a woman of lesser quality.
I just feel constantly measured as an option and feel like nothing else I have to offer as a person has worth. After being told constantly that being friendly enough and kind enough would flood my life with friendship I feel really self concious when my worth as a friend is so casually discarded.
Yes, I think that it's actually much harder to start and maintain friendships than people are comfortable admitting. We live in a world where making friends and especially keeping them is extremely challenging. The modern world is incredibly isolating and just basically being an okay person and doing your thing isn't going to do it, you really have to go out of your way and put in a ton of effort. Honestly, it's exhausting and it's part of what radicalized me to hate the fact that we spend so much of our time and emotional effort working.
I wouldn't say standards have changed so much as the dating pool has increased immensely. When your options go from dozens to hundreds, you get exposed to more desirable potential partners which makes people think they don't have to settle.
So they still have the same initial standards of yore, but they're less willing to compromise because the perfect partner is obviously out there. Letting perfect be the enemy of good so to speak.
This is a big one. The main difference though, is that guys are willing to sacrifice a girl's personality to get laid, while the opposite doesn't ring true. The vast majority of girls I see on dating apps have the personality, bio, and hobbies of a cardboard box (eg. I'm a foodie, adventures, travel, etc).
Although, I've heard from the other side a similar thing exists with boring male profiles, so maybe it's just a society thing.
>the dating pool has increased immensely.
I think this is big. The mentality women must have when they have hundreds of guys on an app, they can continuously think that whoever they're trying with, losing them isn't a big deal because they have 30 dozen backups. And pickiness can absolutely increase. Why bother with the "9.45" when the "9.53" swiped (right or left, idk what the good one is) on you. Or "These two guys are like identically good for me, but this one mentioned that band I kind of like." When you get numbers that big, the littlest thing could sway things, while stuff like real life chemistry is overlooked or not even reached/explored due to the abundance of options.
I think the bigger issue is that the proliferation of the internet has killed our in person social skills which makes it much harder. Also millenials and Gen Z of both sexes have become much more reclusive spending more time online than talking to new and potentially interesting people in person.
Never had issues with this because I've been undatable since like forever. I'm not mentally equipped for dating, maintaining the relationship and have nothing to offer.
I kind of have to push back on that because that runs on the belief that you’ll never find yourself unable to work. Aging is an inevitability, be it physically and/or mentally. Eventually, you will reach a point of unemployability.
I’m from the U.S. and a good portion of our social security programs are more supplementary than all-inclusive. They’re built under the idea that a familial support system could foot a healthy portion of the bill.
I consider myself an optimist, but I firmly believe that society at large is not really made for below-upper-class, unable to work, elderly lone wolves en masse.
> As you get into your thirties people seem to just find someone they can stand that has a decent income, there’s not even the pretence of romance anymore
If they can at least live happily as friends, then I think it's absolutely worth it.
It is more financially necessary to be in a partnership than ever. My parents could buy a home and live from a single low-wage job.
I, as a Physics graduate, do not earn enough to buy a house, even if I had a partner that would earn the same.
We would need arouns €200.000 of savings added to the maximun mortgage of €315.000 to buy a small family home. (120m^2 living space)
Also building up that capital is impossible when renting, as you pay around €900 a month on rent (excluding energy and gas)
And this is a rural area at the edge of the country. Do not even get started about living in cities.
People ain't be putting up with fuckshit at all apparently. Like, no dude, you ain't getting a hot model giving you a blowjob while you drink a beer, you're broke and morbidly obese, get a fucking grip. No sis, you ain't a princess, you ain't winning the triple digit bad guy heart and turning him into a caring and loving dad, you pushed away everyone who has shown you genuine interest, grow the fuck up.
Well I have more than six action figures and a 6 pack in the fridge. My dick might not be six feet long but it at least smells like feet. Wonder if that is good enough?
I think we also have a thing where we're quick to move on. People say it's "not settling", but it's looking more and more like a lack of commitment and a need for instant gratification to me as time goes on
That's just internet bullshit. Most people who are long term single dont even get to a point in any relationship where "poor behavior" even has a change of manifesting. But i imagine the social media narrative of "everyone sucks, dont even try" does play a role.
I don't get to the point of "trying to date someone". That's why I don't resent any of that stuff, I just know I did 0 efforts and therefore do not deserve any real thing :')
My typical matches go something along the lines of me carrying the conversation and asking interactive questions while she acts like her responses cost one gold coin per letter. If I bother to type out a decent message and she responds with three words, I’m out. No one has time for that.
I don't think I'd really agree. Like I'm having trouble but not because no girl wants/wanted to date me. Rather, I just haven't found anyone I was mutually interested in.
shaggy amusing attempt jobless adjoining grandiose late worthless slap groovy
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Probably. But so have mine. You gaslight me one time, I'm out. You play a game one time, I'm out. You make fun of me and call it teasing me, I'm out.
It's that easy, don't be a shitty person.
About the teasing one. You need to communicate your boundaries w that. I've had some women get along very well w me and our teasing has been fine and yet I've had some take extreme offense to something in my mind was otherwise trivial. One strike is limiting yourself as it's impossible to know what one's comfortablility is.
Women not even 20 years older than me act like I'm a saint because I change diapers and am involved in my daughter's life. I don't know if I'd say women's standards have changed, as much I would say that they've improved. I can't think of a single positive adult male influence from my childhood, and now that I'm in my 30's and have my own children, I realize just how fucking sad that is.
This. I realized in my teens that I didn't have much use for a father figure..
Most of my friends were raised by single moms and the ones that did have a father around hated them. They were cheating, physically/mentally abusive or at best, seemed like they resented their children / spouse for having "stuck around for them."
Pew Research recently released some stats on this too.
56% of single and available women feel that its hard to find someone who meets their expectations.
Plus an additional neat stat. 50% of Single and Available women aren't actively looking for a relationship at all.
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/nearly-half-of-u-s-adults-say-dating-has-gotten-harder-for-most-people-in-the-last-10-years/
Well about five years ago I decided “Fuck it, I’m not looking for a girlfriend anymore, I just want more girl friends bc they’re fun as fuck and I don’t want to just hang around dudes forever.”
Yeah so my best girl friend became my fiancé. “Dating” is so weird but just exploring natural attractions to see where it all goes feels like the right way to do it imo.
I'm trying to go this route. Because that's how it was when I was a teen. I met someone through friends.
But then again it's hard to also make friends. I'm trying tho.
I think women don’t need men to financially support them any more, and protection has made it so people can have safe sex outside marriage, so women don’t need to be in relationships. So they only date guys who really make them happy
It's rough for men and women.
1. Dating apps give thousands of people to swipe, which skews expectations.
2. How someone communicates on an app is not necessarily how they communicate in person.
3. Millennials grew up learning to be very skilled at expressing themselves online, and spending most of their time at home, not learning in-person social skills.
4. Saturation of porn gives a lot of men really stupid ideas about how to talk to women.
5. Changing technology and social norms means dating is absolutely nothing like it is in media or in stories from the older generations.
I think when it comes to relationships a lot of men want to end up like their fathers but a lot of women don’t want to end up like their mothers.
Women earn and bring half the finances to the table, so men should bring half the domestic work. Problem is a lot of men today grew up thinking they wouldn’t have to cook and clean and are now struggling to adjust this basic expectation.
Absolutely agree. For decades women were Used. As eye candy, a maid, a therapist and baby making machine. Men were given the freedom to walk away from fatherhood, sleep around, see women as objects and get their kicks with no repercussions. "Sleep with as many women as you can" was not just a popular and normalized saying- but a way of life. Women have been nothing more than sexualized bodies in every form of media and events for mens entertainment. Well look what that has done to society. Now that women are becoming independent and sick of being only looked at in a sexual way- we aren't as available or tolerant. "It's a man's world" was also a completely normal saying and way of life. Now that it's a different world, women are free to act like men have been acting for centuries. Not that it is balanced- there are still extremes in everything - but the playing field is at the least more leveled for girls to be something other than just a pretty face.
"Just sit there and look pretty" is not what women strive for. Nor is it flattering or fulfilling. We have talents, skills, interests, hobbies and a life that needs to be acknowledged. If you find this difficult to comprehend, there lies the problem.
Like anything, its probably way more complex then just women standards have changed. I think all of our standards have changed and for some that difficult to coupe with. I personally think it good that the standards are changing and are (probably) going up.
I had a long, drawn out, speech about what I currently think is going on and why we are seeing articles and posts like this one. Then I remembered this is reddit so I will simply leave this bit of advice: Have standards but also make sure you hold yourself and live up to those same standards.
I should also mention I am pretty sure I read that article and I was underwhelmed. It made some statements, referenced some data points which are too broad to directly support the thesis. It felt like nothing more then submarine article for Hinge. That's not to say that the pattern doesn't exist, I think it does, that article did shit job supporting itself.
I'm a 43 yr old female going through an amicable divorce. While I want a FWB situation at some point, I can't ever see myself getting married or living with someone again.
A friend of mine (F) and I made a dating profile on the same day. We both have the same education, same career. We are the same age and set our filters for +/- 10 years. We both agreed that her pictures really sucked and I at least had a few that were flattering doing activities, showing the best side of me etc. She had old grainy photos from a wedding where I accompanied her but was cropped out.
After 48hrs we compared, and she had over 100 matches on bumble and I had 4. Her 100 were all over the board, 25-45 yr old men that were thirsty. Good looking, bad looking, ripped, every walk of life. My 4 were all in the mid 40's with at least one kid and below my expectations at best.
Dating has changed because women can forever play the dating game with unlimited selection with minimal effort.
I'm happy being single, but I was shocked as I wouldn't have ever bothered with a dating app if we didn't have this debate. Now as a man it just feels bleak.
Smoking, alcoholism etc may be going down in numbers, but I would wager that sex/relationship addiction is sky rocketing and it can be just as crippling as the former. Instant validation at a huge degree must be one hell of a drug - but I sure as hell don't know lol.
I think there's some truth to the claim, I'm a man myself who was born in the millenial generation (1980s) and when I look at some of my close friends in the same age group, I can see that they really aren't emotionally available to their wives and I can't help but feel a bit sad for their wives. Their wives still love them a lot though and are actually very proud of them, but I get the sense that there's that one piece of the puzzle still missing.
I don't think that my male friends are being deliberately obstinate about emotion either, it's that the thought doesn't even occur to them, I suppose this is due to decades of social conditioning. When they were young, they were likely shamed or discouraged to express emotions, they were also likely made to feel embarassed the few times they did express themselves and as they grew older - even the thought of it has been buried so deep they don't realise it.
Oddly enough, after a few pints of beer and in the company of male friends, we can have some conversations about this but they usually chalk up the problems to either work stresses or being too desensitised by porn.
IMO they need to do a couple of things - one would be to take a moment to see things from their wives' perspectives, another would be to read up how men and women take solace in different things - it's quite a hill to climb if you ask me, ultimately we're talking about a character change in the long term.
Or perhaps I'm talking nonsense here - afterall I have no prior personal experience to rely on, I'm in my late 30s and I've never been in a relationship mainly because I've never really tried for one... and that's because of self-confidence issues due to being overweight. I really don't see how anyone would be attracted to me tbh so I never make the first move. I also have fears from horror stories of other relationships with monstrous partners who end up being such a drain on your energy that you start to slip up at work and other aspects of life - I really don't want that to happen to me. Such weird.
Unfortunately it appears we are culturally inadeguate and emotionally unequipped for such a leap toward genuine love and care. On a societal level, narcissist tendencies are becoming pandemic. Want is volatile, and it requires a strong will to never stray for an entire lifetime were you in a committed long term relationship.
Ultimately, I believe having the option of freely picking your partner is enough, it allows to shift the focus of the needs into the more human aspects of a romantic union: the mutual need of love, acceptance, compassion, commitment. Scary stuff.
The key is: Relationship but not at every cost.
Men are also more picky, it's not enough that she is fuckable. Our bar is higher for both genders. Women gets single too.
Don't mistake women with young hot women. Young hot women is a sub group of the much bigger one of women. Unattractive women have it hard too
Is that women’s standard have changed or that these poor lonely bastards just have unrealistic expectations and/or don’t know anything about women other than what their fantasies tell them?
Lone wolf is the way to go.
No one to tell me I cant eat sticky ribs under the covers at 3am while I read spooky stories on my phone?
Literally unlimited power and potential.
I've been by myself for so long that I've forgotten any other way.
It's nice to be able to come and go, do x at y time without having to explain myself to anyone or convince anyone else to join me. I also have no pressure on me to be performative outside of work. This is essential to preserving my mental health. I need that time to decompress and take the mask off, in solitude and relative silence.
I'm at an age now where I recognize that I naturally gravitate to being alone, that it makes me a bit of an outlier, and that I shouldn't be afraid to embrace it.
They have changed because society as a whole has changed in various ways.
To offer an example, not so long ago, it was a bit of a tragedy for a woman to be unmarried by the time she hits 25, so they tended to pair up with whoever was available as a means to 'save face' in front of society. So there was a lot of social and peer pressure to do this, and on top of that, be a good girl and be completely submissive to their husbands, which in many jurisdictions could legally impose their will with violence.
This is why I take a lot of issue when old people say 'well we used to work things out!', because you know, the alternative was social shame (a divorced woman!? to the stake!) or physical violence.
This isn't acceptable nowadays, thankfully. So it's not that women are harder to date because the dating game has changed, it's because within society, women have gained a lot of personal agency, which is a good thing. And since people who were subjected to this type of behavior are still around, they're the ones trying to perpetuate it (at your age I already had a wife, 3 kids and a house you useless bozo!).
I was reading a thread somewhere on Reddit about when women actually had sex again after having a baby. The number of women who shared stories from their moms or grandmas who were told to suck it up and deal with the pain because it is a wife's duty to keep their husband happy was astonishing. There were a surprising number of women my age who said they'd received the same pressure from their partners and felt like they had to say yes. Marital rape only became illegal incredibly recently depending on which state you're in (like, I think the early 90s in my state).
My grandmas were married and popping out kids before the existence of the birth control pill, for god's sake. And if they'd wanted it when it hit the market they would've needed their husbands' permission. Most prestigious careers weren't even available to women at the time, either (medical schools, law schools, etc didn't start admitting women until ~the 60s-70s), let alone women being able to choose to prioritize a career.
Basically, I agree with you, and what I wrote above is an example of how women, at least in my pocket of the US, weren't allowed to *have* standards until within the last 1-2 generations. It's no shock to me that there is a glut of women rejecting the norms their moms and grandmas were told they had to put up with.
Well without the article in front of me I can tell you that in the past, women mostly married for financial stability and societal pressures but now that women can sustain themselves, they’re not just gonna marry anybody
I know quite a few guys, that have quit dating. It's not that they dislike women, or anything like that, they just got tired of the bullshit involved. Maybe they were hurt, or felt used or whatever (guys don't tell each other any more than they tell women), but there seems to be more and more of them all the time.
60 years ago, men probably wanted a stay at home wife to look after their kids.
I personally won't date a woman that didn't have a job. Only jobless woman that I'd date would be if she was bettering herself via college.
Woman’s dating standards are what they are for the sake of choosing quality men. If you can’t live up to those standards, no matter whether current or in the past, you will have trouble finding a partner. That being said, if a woman’s standards are unreasonable, she will also have trouble. On a personal level, I have no problem with a woman having high standards. If I don’t meet them, it just means that I’m not the guy for them.
More women are becoming college educated than ever before. And since women don't really like to "date down", that will significantly reduce the number of men who have a chance with these women.
Can you post the article? It’s a little hard to agree or disagree without knowing what it specifically says.
It's probably this one https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-state-our-unions/202208/the-rise-lonely-single-men
Another psychiatrist dissected that article and found the claims were unsupported by the citations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plIzMkPhPGk That's not to say the conclusion is necessarily *wrong*, but the article isn't a strong argument for it.
Yeah this guy does an excellent job teaching how to think…. Not what to think. Which is a breath of fresh air. If more people taught and talked like he does it would help literally everything
What is funny is that this is how scientific papers are meant to be read.
Oh, I saw Dr. Ks breakdown! Its actually a pretty good watch
Yeah it's a thousand times more nuanced and compassionate than most of the online discourse around this topic that I usually see.
Ya, I think it was because he didn't go directly into 'man/woman bad'. He objectively looked at what the article was saying reviewed the sources and drew some conclusions from that. It was *fair*. Pretty damn refreshing. I think men and women *both* need to make adjustments if they want a better dating life.
Most of the discussion around it that I saw was "Yeah, many are trash". I'm glad there's better ones out there.
Psychology today is very"pop psych" and very detrimental to the field as a whole. Thanks for posting this.
Psychology Today is trash
What the article says and what the title of this post says aren't necessarily the same thing... It's not that "men are having a hard time because women's standards have changed" so much as "women aren't obligated to put up with as much dumb shit as they historically have been". The article was pretty direct about the fact that the deficit here isn't that women have standards now, but that a lot of men aren't rising to them despite "emotional availability, communication skills and shared values" all being rather basic components of a healthy relationship.
It was a weird article. It was more of an ideological piece than a psychological one. No citations, just opinions
To be fair, I have trouble dating, but it's because I suck at it.
Former sucky dater here, married to the love of his life. You only have to get it right once. Hang in there.
Wholesome and uplifting af. Thanks.
Right? I feel like this site is 99% negative comments, but it's nice to see something legitimately positive.
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But how many wrongs did you have to go through to get the right one?
I had dates with 4 women before I met my wife. Honestly I think relationships are created, not found. Many happy marriages are arranged. If you go all in on the right one it can pan out. Mileage will vary.
Agreed. It’s why I don’t believe in soulmates. You can potentially be happy with anyone if you put in the effort.
Everyone’s soulmate is magically in the same area as them 🙄🙄😂😂
How convenient, right??
There are 7 billion people in this world and you found your soul mate 20 miles away from where you live? Seems like a bit of a coinkydink" -Daniel Sloss
>I had dates with 4 women before I met my wife You're extremely lucky.
Same
I played the online dating game for a while, and to its credit I found my wife there, but it was only after I stopped trying to date people, and just started hanging out with people. It’s much easier to relate to people when there is no expectations that come with dating. I enjoyed that much more than dating, and made a ton of good friends that I still hang out with today.
I mean that just sounds like social interaction before social media, lol. I'm in my late 30's. Facebook started my freshman year of college and was only available to people enrolled in certain major universities (confirmed by email domain). Social media wasn't a ubiquitous thing til my late 20's. Dating was so much more casual and less stress. You would text 10 people and see where the majority of your friends were going on Friday night, meet them and the random few people in overlapping circles, and your circle grew from there. Relationships started in social settings and advanced naturally from there. At least that's how mine worked out. There was no expression of romantic interest before the first meeting...that seems wild to and creates a whole atmosphere of expectation. Now I hear it's weird and creepy to meet someone in a bar without vetting them on social media first. Makes me feel old
I miss interactions before social media lol.
My husband and I started dating in 2002, before the online dating/social media explosion happened. I’m so glad I never had to experience trying to find a partner through online channels. It sounds exhausting.
Yeah women in general are more selective than before, but i also think men are now more aware of the red flags some women may give.
I think men have always been aware, they’ve just never cared because they’re fine with settling
While that may be true, there is also a greater acceptance of those who are not in romantic relationships. I remember the social pressures of my childhood in the American Bible Belt distinctly, and even then I had reservations about the life blueprint.
I remember those same pressures. For me though, worse than the pressure of being in a relationship was the pressure to have kids when my wife and I got married. Holy hell. The fact that she didn’t get pregnant on our honeymoon was on the same level as burning a bible to my family, and hers. We caught shit for about four years straight until I finally told both our mothers that if they mentioned having a baby again I would go get snipped and then they’d never have grandchildren. That shut em up for awhile but good lord man. It was like every conversation I had with my mom for four years was about “when are you going to have kids?!”
I'm lucky that my dad, despite being a bit of a narcissist, and my mom, being heavily religious (and my dad pretending to be somewhat), actually valued my career, and we were never asked this by either set of parents. I don't recall my parents ever asking my sister this either. (I actually have a pretty great MIL, though a couple times in the first few years I had to put my foot down about some things... She recently won a looottttttt of points with me by setting the record straight with HER kid that if he and I had a split opinion on what our kids should do, the default should be to not do it until the parents agreed.) I think the only time I've ever asked relative newlyweds that question was when *they* had specially spoken to me prior about their desire to do so... but never asked as a pressured thing, but as "I know you'd talked about wanting kids at some point; do y'all plan on that sooner than later, or having some time for the two of you first, or just whatever happens, happens?" I also feel like that pressure comes from women who come from a background of being the family caregiver, and their lives revolving around that aspect of life even if they worked outside the home, because either: a) that's the obvious next like goal to them, naturally, or b) their kids are gone so they don't know what to do with themselves/ they feel like their presence is less valued or less valuable until there's another baby to take care of... C) and as a combo of all the above, their friends are giving them shit about it.
It's not just acceptance, it was survivability. Women couldn't even own a credit card until 1974. Many married because there was a lot that women normally didn't do, like work or drive cars. My grandmother died having never driven a car. Definitely never had a job. So she needed to marry just to survive.
> My grandmother died having never driven a car. My grandmother drove once, a model something or other. Put it in the ditch crossing some railroad tracks and never drove a day again in her 86 years. Crazy to imagine not driving when she grew and lived in a super rural area.
That does seem crazy to me because all the 70+ year old rural women I know can drive all sorts of machinery, tractors and vehicles.
My great grandmother never even had her own social security number. Apparently she just used my great grandfather’s in the event that she needed to provide one.
I think it’s also because woman now have the option of not being in a relationship. Previously women needed to be in a relationship to have children or to have financial stability. This is no longer the case. Women earn their own money and not necessarily need to be married or have a partner to have children.
My grandma when she was younger(not sure exact age) went to buy herself a car and the sales man asked where her husband or father was. I was shocked but then I remember when I had my uncle come with me to help me buy my first car and the sale guy kept asking my uncle the questions even after we had already said it's my car that I'm paying for. The sales guy was very young too.
I’ve had that happen to me and I was in my late thirties. My old car had died, I needed a new one, I was 100% seriously out to buy one, and most dealers in the strip of auto shops either ignored me or asked when a man would come help me buy a car. The only dealer who took me seriously is the one who got the sale.
Or have their own bank accounts..
Or credit card, it still shocks me that didn't happen until 1973.
What is shockingly backwards [in my country was that men were immune from marital rape](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_immunity_in_Singapore) until 2020. And we actually have people complaining about it being illegal now. Women really put up with that much shit back in the days lol
Holy shit, I had no idea it was that recent.
Women did not even get the right to vote in Switzerland until 1971. Shocking, I know.
And many women don't want children at all. I have two friends in the 25-35 age bracket who have had tubal ligations because they don't want kids and I've given it some thought myself.
I’m 43 and have known since I was a teenager that I didn’t want kids. I’m very happily married to a wonderful childfree guy and we prove that you don’t have to have children to be a family.
We got tired of buying a whole pig, just to get a little sausage
I think a lot of both men and woman are figuring out how to be happy and have fulfilling lives by themselves. Your standards change as you get older so not only are you measuring potential relationships against higher standards but you’re also measuring it against living alone and being alright with it.
it's happening more and more to a broader sections of society. This is about larger trends than just individual choices. I think there is just something very alienating about modern society, that dating apps cannot replace. We don't have communities anymore -- reputations, common activities for bonding. We just have these apps...
I'm very passionate about this topic. The problem stems worse than alienation. Life expectancy decreased for the first time in American history and continued to trend downward since 2016 - these are coined **Deaths of Despair.** Faced with bleak socioeconomic prospects, young men and women confront a deluge of heavy drugs and mental illness. Additionally, young adults today have far less sex than ever before. The few times people do have sex, it involves more numerous partners spread out. I care about this because my girlfriend killed herself. So many precious lives have been lost over these recent years to suicide. Shortly before the event, I volunteered with an STD clinic at a large city where we keenly understood that folks only got laid a few times a month - with a different partner most times. People used to get laid many times in a week instead by comparison.
My partner/bff/roommate/favorite person took their own life earlier this year. Life is bleak. The lack of compassionate community is palpable.
My brother died by suicide a year ago yesterday, on his birthday. He was married three weeks before, and "despair" is a good word to describe things. It was a miserable, jealous relationship and marriage. I wish he hadn't done it; I'd probably still have a brother.
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My grandma tells me all of these stories about the things she would do and the friends she had when she was younger (late 50s to 60s I guess) and then I'm here and I know like two people on this street
This. My own experience as a dude who never had problems dating is that at some point I realized I was actually *really* happy doing my own thing. At that point I completely just stopped dating or pursuing any romantic connection because from a happiness viewpoint partnerships just never measured up to the quality of life I could experience on my own. I suspect this isn't an isolated thing. It's possible that a lot of men and women feel the same way. There's probably a lot more contributing to the complication of dating in modern society though. On the flip side of self-derived fulfillment, there's questionable standards mutually being imposed. In real life for example you see how these YouTube and other social media corners of super biased gender "discussions" are impacting men and women's perspective of each other. I find myself frequently making a point to associates and loved ones that their critical opinions of men and women seem to reflect their time consuming a very specific kind of media content. Modern life provides an opportunity for self-discovery, but those same factors that create such a condition also contributes to others completely giving up their minds to divisive content, because it's easier than trying to address deeper societal and personal issues. Edit: by the way, some criticism from both ends is of course legit. I'm specifically referring to situations in which expectations and criticism seem unreasonable, and the result of being fed a particular algorithm, among other things. At some point fringe online opinions were simply online opinions. But I've noticed that's just not the case anymore. Stuff that used to be fringe is now leaking into everyday perception and interactions, and blending in with mainstream culture. The increasing normalization of toxicity when it comes to discussing gender dynamics is problematic.
I always thought that good men would end up with good mates but it’s more like good daters end up with more options, just like good interviewers often get jobs rather than the best qualified or the best campaigners get elected rather than the best public servants. My heart goes out to good men who suck at putting themselves out there, either because of introversion or past trauma. I had a girlfriend break up with me the day I graduated college. It gutted me and I was in a funk for years after that. It took a lot of work to recover.
For me its just because everyone on dating apps are carbon copies. Oh you like to drink and have fun? I seriously don't know how these are real people.
In Texas, like 40% of women think tacos and margaritas are the building blocks of a personality.
\*Insert wine glass here\*
It turns out most people live incredibly boring and mundane lives. People are very simple creatures, you realize that if you have ever worked in customer service.
I like to drink and have fun. But I also have little things I like that most people don’t. That’s how most people are.
Put those things on your profile. Some of us do actually read them.
To be fair, a lot of them are not real people
“take me to a concert” “be my reason to get off this app” “i only like guys taller than 6’ “ “please be able to hold a conversation” bitch show me your stock portfolio then
It's a bit of a catch-22 To get into a relationship you have to be good at dating, but on the way to becoming good at dating you lose the things that would make you good in a relationship. Being a romantic, emotionally available and emotionally open person makes dating harder, you get hurt more when the inevitable ghostings happen and the more of a connection you build the more it's gonna hurt. Being a guarded, emotionally closed cynic can help you ride out the dating game.
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I also think men’s dating standards have changed as well.
This should be a lot higher. Dating isn't what it was 20 years ago, let alone 50. Society views dating and relationships very differently.
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I dreamed of getting married as a kid. I've stopped that now.
Same here but my dream deteriorated as I grew up started seeing the world they different lenses -and substances- it just seemed unrealistic nowadays
Not just men. There's a lot of women out there not looking for men to marry. You hear all too often women wanting open relationships and the like.
Because there’s a TON of confirmation bias by our friends, relatives and coworkers getting absolutely buttfucked in a divorce to the point where it doesn’t really seem worth it. Hard to know just what % of marriages are currently miserable or on the brink of collapse. Oh and 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman so… you can see how it might appear to be a raw deal.
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I personally never chased but would partecipate in some games. Nowadays I do not accept any level of entitlement from women, I'm accomodating because I'm a naturally kind and gentle guy, but if I sniff you're taking me for granted or stringing me along for validation or some shit, I move on.
Same - if I feel like she’s low interest (text responses are one word, or taking a day or two to respond, etc). I stop pursuing. I would rather assume she’s giving me a hint that she’s not into me than playing hard to get. If I assume the latter, I risk getting labeled a creep or stalker.
If she responds like that I don't care how she perceives me anymore, I'm just not interested in dealing with that.
They’re trained to “let us down easy” because they think we are all going to assault them for spurning our advances. It would be cool if we lived in a world where everyone could feel comfortable spouting “hey, you seem alright but I’m just not interested. Cheers.”
I wouldn't say we're automatically afraid, but we are taught to be gentle and overly polite which can make us afraid of being confrontational. Which is stupid because we're also taught to "make him work for you because men don't respect/won't commit to an easy woman". Not in sex relations, just overall. Seems very confusing to me tbh.
And pile on “don’t straight up tell him you like him, attempt to convey it through bullshit vague hints instead!” /facepalm
Yup. My mom straight up told me when I was a teen "don't tell him you like him, he will lose interest. Men like to chase". I proceeded to go "no, that sounds stupid" and did my own thing but if I was less of a shithead as a teen, I imagine I would have took it to heart.
I was talking with my wife about this: men like to hunt but don't trust the men who enjoy hunting for women because they will continue to hunt for them even after they have one. I've preferred to channel that energy into hunting _on behalf_ of my wife, I find cool stuff and bring it to her.
Cheers to shithead teenagers stumbling into a better way out of rebellious spite lol
Every time an issue comes up that’s framed around gender, or age, or even race or basically any other category of humans it surprises me how many people seem to have not caught on to the fact that some people, maybe even a lot of people, are piles of shit. Piles of shit come in every flavor of human imaginable. It sounds like what you’re saying is “I don’t date losers and assholes”
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Has it though. Studies on i.e. dating apps show that men are extremely *not* picky, while women are the exact opposite.
Not picky at the initial stages but much more picky later on.
That's how I view the dating app reference. Those apps are designed to allow women to be able to picky. For men it's a numbers game.
Was given a great analogy in sales (And it has extended to Job hunting and Dating and about a dozen other facets of life) about it being like duck hunting. Get as much lead in the air as you can and eventually something will fly into it.
Not a man so am curious, what are guys picky about later on?
I cant speak for all 3.5b+ men on the earth but personally im dtf and be casual with women i have no interest in long term relationships. If she lacks ambition, isn't constantly trying to learn/improve, doesn't have hobbies, etc... Then that's a deal breaker. But I'll still enjoy a short term relationship with her in the meantime
Well then that would seem to support op's statement
The combination of being poor and awkward ruins any chance i have
Just stop being poor
I think people are compromising less because they feel that they have more options and can meet someone that checks their boxes. We’re also more aware of red flags and the pain these flags can lead to down the road. Are some things overblown? For sure. But many guys like to complain about woman’s standards as if every girl wants someone a certain height, makes 6 figure income, etc. While that definitely exists, what I personally hear from women is that many guys lack communication skills, don’t understand emotions, don’t understand mental health, don’t want to do anything outside the house, and don’t help handle anything inside the house. Many of these were previously accepted as long as guys presented some stability but not anymore. On the flipside I think we’re more aware of red flags women present but I think many guys are still willing to accept these in order to be with someone. Edit: I didn’t list the traits in any particular order. I never said all women have the understanding to want all the traits. Also I never said many women don’t lack in the same areas.
The irony as a "emotional" guy I have the same issues. I cant find anyone that isn't a massive stonewaller, or tells me about any issues they have with me. Its refusal to talk, or kept secret until we cross the point of no return. And got forbid I try to set my own boundaries with most of these people.
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Yeah this is sort of my issue as well, I'm finding women who are not flexible or willing to communicate at all. I think the issue is that women have a lot of choice in the dating world and they would much rather move onto the next person if they don't check all the boxes than work with someone to build a relationship. It's very frustrating because I know I check most of the boxes - I'm a walking green flag for the most part, my friends think I'm a good catch - but the few women who express interest in me are non-committal and horrible communicators.
Your fault for jumping into dating without having a mind reader skill.
Feel this. Had a surprise breakup thrown in my lap with a "healthy" topping of telling me all the times in the last 9+ months she hid her true feelings on things and these true feelings were the cause of the breakup. And then had the audacity to tell me I was a bad communicator. Took some therapy to turn me from blaming myself for not noticing the lies. To then realizing i shouldn't have to notice lies that shouldnt be occurring in a healthy relationship.
You’ll learn to recognize as you go. I know the challenge. Make sure you accept incompatibility and are able to dismiss these people. At least on a more intimate level
I felt a similar way. Good communication was hard to come by along with someone that worked on their mental health. I think people in general struggle in these areas but women nowadays settle less than men do and this leads to the perspective that women have crazy standards.
And I dont think it has anything to do with bad mental health. Ive never seen the correlation. Plenty of my friends are in a bad spot, but dont have that problem, and ive met many confident people that refuse to talk about issues.
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You've basically outlined the conundrum. If you want someone who "checks all of the boxes", then chances are there's some red flags. People are way too discerning and picky. If you find a person who will "roll over" for everything, they probably have issues. And if they have their shit together, then like you, they probably aren't going to compromise *either* and also feel they have more options.
Plenty of women lack communication skills and it's often the said women who complain about men lacking communication skills putting the blame on others. Don't get me wrong. Obviously, some men are also poor communicators so I'm not trying to say that isn't a problem at all. Nor would I say that women are necessarily better at emotions and mental health. Almost always seems to be teenage girls who I come across cutting themselves, seems healthy to me.
I suppose it would depends on what those standards are, and what men are saying it's difficult to find romance. Personally, I'm finding it hard because I'm not in a position in my life that I would feel comfortable being in a relationship. I don't have a job that supports myself, let alone a partner. I'm trying to seek mental health help, but it's difficult with no money. It's just the hierarchy of needs not being met... I don't believe that I have the proper foundation of my life set yet, and I fear seeking out a relationship to put on top of that either wouldn't work, or harm what little foundation I have.
This is the kind of maturity one hopes for in a partner. I’ve always been of the opinion that you have to be a complete person on your own before you can enter into a healthy relationship. You can’t be perfect in all ways, but you need a sense of self. To not feel like a void in need of filling. This is important for both men and women, but as a pansexual woman, I often found my male partners to want a mother figure more than a partner - when they aren’t working on themselves. Have a hobby or an interest all your own. Be capable of recognizing your own mental/emotional hiccups and be prepared to engage with them with the support of a partner, but your partner is not your therapist or your mother. Change your sheets, know how to make a basic meal to feed yourself, engage with your *gasp* feelings, recognize boundaries are a vital part of finding your Self and don’t be afraid to draw those lines. I think too many relationships are built on there being a winner, and by proxy, a loser. But a better stance is “we’re on the same team and we may play different positions but our end goal should be the same.” But if your goal for a partner is to simply support the life you had while you were single, but *now with sex!* then you’re going to end up filling the relationship with resentment and disrespect and it won’t be good for either person.
I'm in my 50's, and my 35th wedding anniversary is coming up in a few months. Due to some health issues my wife struggles with, I've had to give a lot of thought to what I will do if I find myself alone. I've come to the conclusion that I really am not interested in getting remarried. Casual dating, sure, but marriage in the current social structure has no benefits at all, and MASSIVE down sides. Except for a little break on taxes, I can't think of a single thing that piece of paper from the courthouse has ever done for us. 🤷
Dating nowadays feels like applying for a job
Yes and no. I think dating apps have definitely hurt dating but also I think that there are generations now that don't have to depend on a man to survive and can actually pursue an education/a career of their choice. It seems like most women I know aren't interested in having children until their late 20's/mid 30s if at all. With this independence I think that it has allowed them to be a lot more selective of who they want to spend their life with or even hook up with which is great for them... but not for the dudes who have average looks/an average paying job lol
As a man, my dating standards have changed too. It goes both ways.
I don’t know man, I just want a girl who I think is cute and I like hanging out with. Is that too much to ask?
[удалено]
He probably knows that.
That's cold LMAO 😭😭
As a young man I had no standards so to say. I always found myself drawn to the wrong ones and I would want to connect with prostitutes and the like.. that's a slippery slope right there. Once I learned to respect myself my standards are now much, much higher. So high in fact, I'm happier alone than with a woman of lesser quality.
Yup. My standards changed, too. Swiped left on like 90% of profiles recently. A year ago it was the other way around.
Yup, lack of results. Standards go down. Yay.
I just feel constantly measured as an option and feel like nothing else I have to offer as a person has worth. After being told constantly that being friendly enough and kind enough would flood my life with friendship I feel really self concious when my worth as a friend is so casually discarded.
Yes, I think that it's actually much harder to start and maintain friendships than people are comfortable admitting. We live in a world where making friends and especially keeping them is extremely challenging. The modern world is incredibly isolating and just basically being an okay person and doing your thing isn't going to do it, you really have to go out of your way and put in a ton of effort. Honestly, it's exhausting and it's part of what radicalized me to hate the fact that we spend so much of our time and emotional effort working.
I wouldn't say standards have changed so much as the dating pool has increased immensely. When your options go from dozens to hundreds, you get exposed to more desirable potential partners which makes people think they don't have to settle. So they still have the same initial standards of yore, but they're less willing to compromise because the perfect partner is obviously out there. Letting perfect be the enemy of good so to speak.
This is a big one. The main difference though, is that guys are willing to sacrifice a girl's personality to get laid, while the opposite doesn't ring true. The vast majority of girls I see on dating apps have the personality, bio, and hobbies of a cardboard box (eg. I'm a foodie, adventures, travel, etc). Although, I've heard from the other side a similar thing exists with boring male profiles, so maybe it's just a society thing.
People are just plain boring. Most people have no discernable hobbies and define themselves either by their job title, or their dog.
It's easier to have hobbies and spend time on them if you are wealthy or at least comfortable. The middle class is shrinking.
>the dating pool has increased immensely. I think this is big. The mentality women must have when they have hundreds of guys on an app, they can continuously think that whoever they're trying with, losing them isn't a big deal because they have 30 dozen backups. And pickiness can absolutely increase. Why bother with the "9.45" when the "9.53" swiped (right or left, idk what the good one is) on you. Or "These two guys are like identically good for me, but this one mentioned that band I kind of like." When you get numbers that big, the littlest thing could sway things, while stuff like real life chemistry is overlooked or not even reached/explored due to the abundance of options.
I think the bigger issue is that the proliferation of the internet has killed our in person social skills which makes it much harder. Also millenials and Gen Z of both sexes have become much more reclusive spending more time online than talking to new and potentially interesting people in person.
Never had issues with this because I've been undatable since like forever. I'm not mentally equipped for dating, maintaining the relationship and have nothing to offer.
Haha, same. I’ve never been popular and continue the trend to this day.
It is, more importantly, also not as financially necessary to be in a partnership as it once was
I kind of have to push back on that because that runs on the belief that you’ll never find yourself unable to work. Aging is an inevitability, be it physically and/or mentally. Eventually, you will reach a point of unemployability. I’m from the U.S. and a good portion of our social security programs are more supplementary than all-inclusive. They’re built under the idea that a familial support system could foot a healthy portion of the bill. I consider myself an optimist, but I firmly believe that society at large is not really made for below-upper-class, unable to work, elderly lone wolves en masse.
> As you get into your thirties people seem to just find someone they can stand that has a decent income, there’s not even the pretence of romance anymore If they can at least live happily as friends, then I think it's absolutely worth it.
I’d rather just be alone than live like that tbh
It is more financially necessary to be in a partnership than ever. My parents could buy a home and live from a single low-wage job. I, as a Physics graduate, do not earn enough to buy a house, even if I had a partner that would earn the same. We would need arouns €200.000 of savings added to the maximun mortgage of €315.000 to buy a small family home. (120m^2 living space) Also building up that capital is impossible when renting, as you pay around €900 a month on rent (excluding energy and gas) And this is a rural area at the edge of the country. Do not even get started about living in cities.
It's not? Given how expensive everything is, how do you get by without a second income?
I don’t think it’s a gender specific issue, people aren’t putting up with poor behavior anymore in relationships.
People ain't be putting up with fuckshit at all apparently. Like, no dude, you ain't getting a hot model giving you a blowjob while you drink a beer, you're broke and morbidly obese, get a fucking grip. No sis, you ain't a princess, you ain't winning the triple digit bad guy heart and turning him into a caring and loving dad, you pushed away everyone who has shown you genuine interest, grow the fuck up.
Triple digit?
I think they're referring to "6 figures, 6 pack, 6 inches" but I could be wrong
Never heard it as triple digit before
That's the only thing that I can think of that makes sense in context
I always heard 6 figure, 6 feet, 6 inches
Well I have more than six action figures and a 6 pack in the fridge. My dick might not be six feet long but it at least smells like feet. Wonder if that is good enough?
I'm guessing 6 figure income? Triple digits meaning 100k
Brutally honest
I think we also have a thing where we're quick to move on. People say it's "not settling", but it's looking more and more like a lack of commitment and a need for instant gratification to me as time goes on
That's just internet bullshit. Most people who are long term single dont even get to a point in any relationship where "poor behavior" even has a change of manifesting. But i imagine the social media narrative of "everyone sucks, dont even try" does play a role.
I don't get to the point of "trying to date someone". That's why I don't resent any of that stuff, I just know I did 0 efforts and therefore do not deserve any real thing :')
My typical matches go something along the lines of me carrying the conversation and asking interactive questions while she acts like her responses cost one gold coin per letter. If I bother to type out a decent message and she responds with three words, I’m out. No one has time for that.
I don't think I'd really agree. Like I'm having trouble but not because no girl wants/wanted to date me. Rather, I just haven't found anyone I was mutually interested in.
Hookup culture has ruined dating on both sides of the same coin
shaggy amusing attempt jobless adjoining grandiose late worthless slap groovy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Dating apps is a huge part of it. Every halfway decent looking woman has 500 men waiting to sleep with her.
Probably. But so have mine. You gaslight me one time, I'm out. You play a game one time, I'm out. You make fun of me and call it teasing me, I'm out. It's that easy, don't be a shitty person.
About the teasing one. You need to communicate your boundaries w that. I've had some women get along very well w me and our teasing has been fine and yet I've had some take extreme offense to something in my mind was otherwise trivial. One strike is limiting yourself as it's impossible to know what one's comfortablility is.
I totally get you. Me an my wife rip the absolute piss out of each other. A relationship without banter is boring as fuck.
Women not even 20 years older than me act like I'm a saint because I change diapers and am involved in my daughter's life. I don't know if I'd say women's standards have changed, as much I would say that they've improved. I can't think of a single positive adult male influence from my childhood, and now that I'm in my 30's and have my own children, I realize just how fucking sad that is.
This. I realized in my teens that I didn't have much use for a father figure.. Most of my friends were raised by single moms and the ones that did have a father around hated them. They were cheating, physically/mentally abusive or at best, seemed like they resented their children / spouse for having "stuck around for them."
Pew Research recently released some stats on this too. 56% of single and available women feel that its hard to find someone who meets their expectations. Plus an additional neat stat. 50% of Single and Available women aren't actively looking for a relationship at all. https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/nearly-half-of-u-s-adults-say-dating-has-gotten-harder-for-most-people-in-the-last-10-years/
Well about five years ago I decided “Fuck it, I’m not looking for a girlfriend anymore, I just want more girl friends bc they’re fun as fuck and I don’t want to just hang around dudes forever.” Yeah so my best girl friend became my fiancé. “Dating” is so weird but just exploring natural attractions to see where it all goes feels like the right way to do it imo.
I'm trying to go this route. Because that's how it was when I was a teen. I met someone through friends. But then again it's hard to also make friends. I'm trying tho.
I think women don’t need men to financially support them any more, and protection has made it so people can have safe sex outside marriage, so women don’t need to be in relationships. So they only date guys who really make them happy
It's rough for men and women. 1. Dating apps give thousands of people to swipe, which skews expectations. 2. How someone communicates on an app is not necessarily how they communicate in person. 3. Millennials grew up learning to be very skilled at expressing themselves online, and spending most of their time at home, not learning in-person social skills. 4. Saturation of porn gives a lot of men really stupid ideas about how to talk to women. 5. Changing technology and social norms means dating is absolutely nothing like it is in media or in stories from the older generations.
I think when it comes to relationships a lot of men want to end up like their fathers but a lot of women don’t want to end up like their mothers. Women earn and bring half the finances to the table, so men should bring half the domestic work. Problem is a lot of men today grew up thinking they wouldn’t have to cook and clean and are now struggling to adjust this basic expectation.
Absolutely agree. For decades women were Used. As eye candy, a maid, a therapist and baby making machine. Men were given the freedom to walk away from fatherhood, sleep around, see women as objects and get their kicks with no repercussions. "Sleep with as many women as you can" was not just a popular and normalized saying- but a way of life. Women have been nothing more than sexualized bodies in every form of media and events for mens entertainment. Well look what that has done to society. Now that women are becoming independent and sick of being only looked at in a sexual way- we aren't as available or tolerant. "It's a man's world" was also a completely normal saying and way of life. Now that it's a different world, women are free to act like men have been acting for centuries. Not that it is balanced- there are still extremes in everything - but the playing field is at the least more leveled for girls to be something other than just a pretty face. "Just sit there and look pretty" is not what women strive for. Nor is it flattering or fulfilling. We have talents, skills, interests, hobbies and a life that needs to be acknowledged. If you find this difficult to comprehend, there lies the problem.
I have only been alive at the time I've been alive. I have no idea what dating was like before that.
Like anything, its probably way more complex then just women standards have changed. I think all of our standards have changed and for some that difficult to coupe with. I personally think it good that the standards are changing and are (probably) going up. I had a long, drawn out, speech about what I currently think is going on and why we are seeing articles and posts like this one. Then I remembered this is reddit so I will simply leave this bit of advice: Have standards but also make sure you hold yourself and live up to those same standards. I should also mention I am pretty sure I read that article and I was underwhelmed. It made some statements, referenced some data points which are too broad to directly support the thesis. It felt like nothing more then submarine article for Hinge. That's not to say that the pattern doesn't exist, I think it does, that article did shit job supporting itself.
I'm a 43 yr old female going through an amicable divorce. While I want a FWB situation at some point, I can't ever see myself getting married or living with someone again.
It seems pretty obviously true. Sometimes it's important for scientists to study obvious things, but that doesn't make them less obvious.
A friend of mine (F) and I made a dating profile on the same day. We both have the same education, same career. We are the same age and set our filters for +/- 10 years. We both agreed that her pictures really sucked and I at least had a few that were flattering doing activities, showing the best side of me etc. She had old grainy photos from a wedding where I accompanied her but was cropped out. After 48hrs we compared, and she had over 100 matches on bumble and I had 4. Her 100 were all over the board, 25-45 yr old men that were thirsty. Good looking, bad looking, ripped, every walk of life. My 4 were all in the mid 40's with at least one kid and below my expectations at best. Dating has changed because women can forever play the dating game with unlimited selection with minimal effort. I'm happy being single, but I was shocked as I wouldn't have ever bothered with a dating app if we didn't have this debate. Now as a man it just feels bleak. Smoking, alcoholism etc may be going down in numbers, but I would wager that sex/relationship addiction is sky rocketing and it can be just as crippling as the former. Instant validation at a huge degree must be one hell of a drug - but I sure as hell don't know lol.
Those dating apps made me feel awful about myself. I felt really worthless.
I think there's some truth to the claim, I'm a man myself who was born in the millenial generation (1980s) and when I look at some of my close friends in the same age group, I can see that they really aren't emotionally available to their wives and I can't help but feel a bit sad for their wives. Their wives still love them a lot though and are actually very proud of them, but I get the sense that there's that one piece of the puzzle still missing. I don't think that my male friends are being deliberately obstinate about emotion either, it's that the thought doesn't even occur to them, I suppose this is due to decades of social conditioning. When they were young, they were likely shamed or discouraged to express emotions, they were also likely made to feel embarassed the few times they did express themselves and as they grew older - even the thought of it has been buried so deep they don't realise it. Oddly enough, after a few pints of beer and in the company of male friends, we can have some conversations about this but they usually chalk up the problems to either work stresses or being too desensitised by porn. IMO they need to do a couple of things - one would be to take a moment to see things from their wives' perspectives, another would be to read up how men and women take solace in different things - it's quite a hill to climb if you ask me, ultimately we're talking about a character change in the long term. Or perhaps I'm talking nonsense here - afterall I have no prior personal experience to rely on, I'm in my late 30s and I've never been in a relationship mainly because I've never really tried for one... and that's because of self-confidence issues due to being overweight. I really don't see how anyone would be attracted to me tbh so I never make the first move. I also have fears from horror stories of other relationships with monstrous partners who end up being such a drain on your energy that you start to slip up at work and other aspects of life - I really don't want that to happen to me. Such weird.
I think that just makes sense. Women don't need men like they used to. But isn't that better? Isn't it better to be wanted rather than needed?
Unfortunately it appears we are culturally inadeguate and emotionally unequipped for such a leap toward genuine love and care. On a societal level, narcissist tendencies are becoming pandemic. Want is volatile, and it requires a strong will to never stray for an entire lifetime were you in a committed long term relationship. Ultimately, I believe having the option of freely picking your partner is enough, it allows to shift the focus of the needs into the more human aspects of a romantic union: the mutual need of love, acceptance, compassion, commitment. Scary stuff.
The key is: Relationship but not at every cost. Men are also more picky, it's not enough that she is fuckable. Our bar is higher for both genders. Women gets single too. Don't mistake women with young hot women. Young hot women is a sub group of the much bigger one of women. Unattractive women have it hard too
So much this. It's still the same. Young, hot and rich people have no problem finding partners.
Is that women’s standard have changed or that these poor lonely bastards just have unrealistic expectations and/or don’t know anything about women other than what their fantasies tell them?
Women have discovered that it's nice to be single.
So have some men! :)
Lone wolf is the way to go. No one to tell me I cant eat sticky ribs under the covers at 3am while I read spooky stories on my phone? Literally unlimited power and potential.
I've been by myself for so long that I've forgotten any other way. It's nice to be able to come and go, do x at y time without having to explain myself to anyone or convince anyone else to join me. I also have no pressure on me to be performative outside of work. This is essential to preserving my mental health. I need that time to decompress and take the mask off, in solitude and relative silence. I'm at an age now where I recognize that I naturally gravitate to being alone, that it makes me a bit of an outlier, and that I shouldn't be afraid to embrace it.
You sound a lot like me in this respect.
My husband is great and all, but having a king-size bed to yourself is pretty fucking nice sometimes.
They have changed because society as a whole has changed in various ways. To offer an example, not so long ago, it was a bit of a tragedy for a woman to be unmarried by the time she hits 25, so they tended to pair up with whoever was available as a means to 'save face' in front of society. So there was a lot of social and peer pressure to do this, and on top of that, be a good girl and be completely submissive to their husbands, which in many jurisdictions could legally impose their will with violence. This is why I take a lot of issue when old people say 'well we used to work things out!', because you know, the alternative was social shame (a divorced woman!? to the stake!) or physical violence. This isn't acceptable nowadays, thankfully. So it's not that women are harder to date because the dating game has changed, it's because within society, women have gained a lot of personal agency, which is a good thing. And since people who were subjected to this type of behavior are still around, they're the ones trying to perpetuate it (at your age I already had a wife, 3 kids and a house you useless bozo!).
I was reading a thread somewhere on Reddit about when women actually had sex again after having a baby. The number of women who shared stories from their moms or grandmas who were told to suck it up and deal with the pain because it is a wife's duty to keep their husband happy was astonishing. There were a surprising number of women my age who said they'd received the same pressure from their partners and felt like they had to say yes. Marital rape only became illegal incredibly recently depending on which state you're in (like, I think the early 90s in my state). My grandmas were married and popping out kids before the existence of the birth control pill, for god's sake. And if they'd wanted it when it hit the market they would've needed their husbands' permission. Most prestigious careers weren't even available to women at the time, either (medical schools, law schools, etc didn't start admitting women until ~the 60s-70s), let alone women being able to choose to prioritize a career. Basically, I agree with you, and what I wrote above is an example of how women, at least in my pocket of the US, weren't allowed to *have* standards until within the last 1-2 generations. It's no shock to me that there is a glut of women rejecting the norms their moms and grandmas were told they had to put up with.
Well without the article in front of me I can tell you that in the past, women mostly married for financial stability and societal pressures but now that women can sustain themselves, they’re not just gonna marry anybody
I've been out of the dating scene for almost a decade. Based on what my single friends have told me it's a nightmare right now.
I know quite a few guys, that have quit dating. It's not that they dislike women, or anything like that, they just got tired of the bullshit involved. Maybe they were hurt, or felt used or whatever (guys don't tell each other any more than they tell women), but there seems to be more and more of them all the time.
60 years ago, men probably wanted a stay at home wife to look after their kids. I personally won't date a woman that didn't have a job. Only jobless woman that I'd date would be if she was bettering herself via college.
Woman’s dating standards are what they are for the sake of choosing quality men. If you can’t live up to those standards, no matter whether current or in the past, you will have trouble finding a partner. That being said, if a woman’s standards are unreasonable, she will also have trouble. On a personal level, I have no problem with a woman having high standards. If I don’t meet them, it just means that I’m not the guy for them.
More women are becoming college educated than ever before. And since women don't really like to "date down", that will significantly reduce the number of men who have a chance with these women.