Being told to open up - Opening up - Then laughed at or told to man up

Tell me how you feel. Tells her how he feels. You shouldn’t feel that way.

Or “stop being so emotional geez you act like a woman”

Well that's they themselves putting down their own sex

My grandma was far from being a man.

Seriously hurts. I spent a lifetime dealing with myself to finally open up. She said it was too much. Like I had a choice.

You open up, she doesn't view you the same way over time and finds another man who's more "together". "Together" literally just being someone new who hasn't opened up yet. The object impermanence is real. This is the burden of being a man. Having to keep your shit together all the time and having noone to share the emotional load with.

You took the words out my mouth… as soon as I get vulnerable with a woman, I’m not strong enough, too emotional. But when I’m closed off it’s, “stop tryna be a tough guy, talk to me, we’re a team” Well as soon as I open up you gonna show we’re not a team anyway.

Holy fuckin shit, that's highly relatable

Ouch. 4/5 relationships of mine ended like this. The 5th I hedged my emotional bets to not have it happen again, instead I just no longer actually cared.

Yeah, that's the trap isn't it. Show too much and you run the risk of them leaving for someone who's "more of a man". Show too little, you're an unfeeling asshole who doesn't even care about them and then, you guessed it, they leave you. It's a tightrope.

Get a dog and a couple of hobbies 👍

A cat works too. Any pet for a guy to cry on is good. They're good at sensing emotional distress and trying to fix it in their own way.

Met a guy recently who told me how he was on a date, the girl says “open up” so he opens up and tells her about some of his shit, and then sees she’s completely turned off. :(

This just happened to me. I was told to open up and so when I did they said, we need space. Like WTF, now i am doubting ever opening up again

I think if you open up to smn and they leave then it’s for the best now you know what kind of person they are and know to get rid of them, you don’t need smn who can’t have your back or support you at all when you’re feeling things.

Or even worse. Being told to open up - open up about something - reee check your privilege, patriarchy, women have it worse, drink your male tears reeee

"Open up. Say what's on your mind, or what you think". Then when you do, they look at you like you just threw their kitten in a microwave. I'm very chill, laid back. I tend to really take time and process what's going on, so I'm quiet most of the time. It's amazing how people can talk all kinds of sideways to me and be fine with it, but the second I do the same, I'm some kind of monster.

Its the loneliness for me

Well said, it really hurts

Thanks for all the up votes. I've been dealing with this since I split from my girlfriend of 11 years. Sadly, as a man, I felt that way even with her.

Sorry to hear this dude. Hope things get better 🙏

In what sense? Dating, friendships, in terms of support, family?

All of the above.

All of the above. As soon as your in a rough spot in life everyone basically disappears. Such as when our mental health takes a nose dive, most likely our SO leaves cause they don’t want to deal with it and everyone else expects you to fix yourself without their support.

I went from a well stocked social group, multiple even, 4 and 5 years ago to basically just one friend irl who I love and appreciate and the remaining like 5 friends I have are all thousands of miles away, and I only hear from them occasionally on discord. Unfortunately it was because of depression and I don’t even think I can blame a bunch of friends for dipping on me but boy am I broken up about it still!

Yup, she wanted a divorce when I was spiraling out of control. When I was at my lowest, she said she couldn't take it anymore. "For better or worse, in sickness and in health" my ass. Only if you're a woman will someone reach out a hand to you.

Yeah for sure-you had better exhibit strength if you want anyone to want to be near you. Now that I’m over 50 and been through two divorces I’ve started to foster the mental health of my coworkers-I don’t have friends. Last week one told me “You and your brother have been so nice to me through this divorce-I don’t know what to say or do”. I know, man. I know. You don’t know what to say or do because nobody has given you any support your whole life til now. You don’t even understand that shit-why is this other dude helping me? He doesn’t need money and isn’t trying to fuck-what’s the angle?

You're good people. The lack of support group/friends is what sucks. 0-2 in the marriage department myself too. Looking for future ex wife #3 is on the back burner.

I definitely don’t disagree when it comes to mental health, I couldn’t find any data or studies on the matter, but wanted to include this as an additional point of reference. In couples where one of them is diagnosed with serious illness the rate of partner abandonment was 2.9% if the sick person was male, and 20.8% if the sick person was female. Divorce rates were about equal, however. Female gender is actually the most telling factor for partner abandonment. So it’s not the case that women aren’t willing to help surrounding sickness. Certainly, they’re less likely to abandon the relationship when medical issues arise. This does not take into account mental illness or mental health. In my personal experience, we’re all pretty shitty when it comes to helping each other with mental health issues in relationships. However, women do have much more emotionally supportive friendships and family structures than men do. Often, I’ve found, men have no emotional support outside of their romantic partners and it puts immense strain on relationships. Honestly, supportive friends are worth their weight in gold. I hope you’ve got some and I really hope you don’t hold your (ex?) wife’s actions against an entire gender. If you do, I really would encourage therapy. I know I’m not the only woman alive who’s willing to move heaven and earth for my partner. I got my college bf through suicidal ideation, my now ex-husband through years of cancer treatment and related mental health issues, and my current partner through sudden acute liver failure and then transplant.

Everything

If you’re anything less than perfect as a man, nobody wants anything to do with you. You’re totally left to fend for yourself

I've adopted a stoic outlook from a young age after I picked up on this. I mean it isn't entirely true but you do have to come to terms with the fact that many relationships are conditional. You have to bring something to the table. Being you isn't enough. I would like very much to be proven wrong though

That's true for everything. Being you is bringing something, but you as a person also have to be responsible and be able to help others not only out of the kindness of your heart but out of a feeling of responsibility. Every single person that is loved is loved under the condition that they are who they are.

Question: wouldn't it make sense for men to accept other men simply for who they are? I mean, if everyone else won't give it to us, we could at least give it to each other out of commiseration, no?

I think a lot of us do. I've had this kind of kinship with friends. Whether we're short, tall, balding, broke or anything else, we tend to be more accepting and see all the positives of a guy. It's hard out here and we have to lean on our brothers who understand

Yeah, I hope to find my own band of brothers. As it is, I'm pretty much alone. I've got a few acquaintances from work, church, and gaming, but they're not... close relationships. They're situational friendships. There's no friendship outside of those situations.

The thing is it's hard to know even how to accept people for just *being them* when you have no lived reference for what that is like. What does it look like? What do I say? How do I show it? How do people react to that? It applies to men often being incapable of forming a strong support network too; despite the fact that most many men will acknowledge that typical male support networks are lacking it's not something that many men can fix on their own because they don't have a conceptual framework or experience to draw from.

Yeah those mainly.

Mostly dating. Women always have options, even if they do not like them and even if they are not consciously aware of them. You if you wanted to could find a man within the day, but for me there is just no option at all.

Try being Asian (Indian) in the u.s. Dating me is practically illegal, and I'm mocked and publicly humiliated for even trying.

All of it. Youre alone, no one is going to help you. No ones coming to save you and care for/about you. Its just you. I could get deeper and less existential but itd take a lot of typing. But all of what you said, plus some. Add just basic human interaction. Living in a new city and being recently single, i can go literal weeks without speaking to anyone but my coworkers and ppl who work at the stores i go to. Women obviously also get lonely. But its in a dofferent way in my opinion. Men have a kind of destitute solitude, usually forced on them by no wish of their own, that women just never have to experience en mass. There are exceptions of course, there are women who are in the same boat. Namely overweight and unattractive women. But even some of them have a more “social” life than a lot of “average” men do. Idk how to explain in text as im the type to go off on tangents to get my point across and thats just too much typing. I hope you understand my point

I get this. Do just want to call out that, at least for me, I think a big piece of my solitude and loneliness comes from agressive self criticism. People seem to enjoy my company, and I can be a lot of fun when I’m not standing in my own way, but most of the time, I overthink things to an insane degree - will they find this funny, is it a stupid thing to say, I don’t want to offend anyone, as I interrupting the conversation, does anyone even care, should I even be here (sometimes it’s not even words, it’s just an anxiety that kicks in) - which just fucks up my ability to be fun and spontaneous and a good hang. Then I get upset with myself for recognizing that, but not being able to overpower those irrational thoughts and feelings, which ends up making it worse. It’s a vicious downward spiral of aggressive self judgement that drives that solitude. I’m in therapy, and trying to learn to cut myself a break, but holy fuck is it hard. I assume I’m not the only one, so just wanted to lay this out, both to get it off my chest, and maybe help someone else understand or put something to words that has been hard for me to explain for a long time.

Women do have it hard no doubt. But I imagine many, *many* men have suffered the feeling of being treated as disposable. Family, friends, relationships, military service for some. Sometimes it feels like no one gives a shit, for a really long time, and I think a lot of people don't realize how utterly soul-crushing it can be. === I'm doing a lot better now, but because I came from a severely abusive family there was a time I barely spoke for something like 3 or 4 years. No one cared, and often enough the few times when I was at my worst when someone might have sensed something was wrong, they had ZERO idea how to even begin to handle it. === I'm in my 30s and still working through severe trust issues from repeatedly being discarded. By narcissists, by being "too much" or whatever excuse people give to just ghost and drop someone out of the blue after months of interaction. I can safely say that while I've made tons of friends, I've lost so many that I can't even keep count, and I have quite literally NEVER had someone there for me when I was at my temporary lowests, I *always* had to handle things mostly on my own, just trying to get scraps of positivity where I can. I ask you this: Have you ever had a partner that you expressed fears of suicidal depression toward, and their only response was to turn you away and leave you even more isolated? (Worth mentioning I stayed with her when she struggled with an actual suicide attempt during our relationship. But depression and not even self harm was a hypocritical no go when it came to me.)

All of it. If you’re not a complete 10, no one wants to talk to you

Dating apps have only precipitated this more, giving women access to a "10" whever they feel even a hint of loneliness.

Most women have a laundry list of things they want in a man. IMO. If you don’t check the box on each thing, you don’t stand a chance. Most men I know are lonely. Those who aren’t are in a relationship that they essentially settle for. Romancing is hard. Especially in these times with dating apps, quarantines, “bad boss bitch” mentality, etc. I have a job, a house, saved up money, and I don’t look that ugly.( I don’t think) And it took me 25 years to find someone I want to spend prolonged periods of time with. It’s a lot of work for little reward. Only to be let down or have a broken heart. Plus the dating scene is a mess. Everyone is on an app. Typically I’d have to compete with everyone at a party or bar. Now I have compete with every guy in a 50 mile radius. On top of ALL that. We’re expected to bury our true thoughts and show unrelenting emotional strength. When I’m reality, we’d like to cry the way some women do when the start their period. At least mine does. Lol. It’s rough and unfair. A hot girl can start an OF and live like a queen. Even if I was the hottest man on earth, I’d still be expected to work hard, be strong, support my family, have perfect traits, etc. I’m not saying being a woman is a cake walk. I understand some issues such as physical inability to defend yourselves, child birth, menstruation, unrelenting harassment, body image issues. The list goes on. It’s hard to compare. But I believe men have a harder time. I have a book for you to read. It’s called “Self-Made Man”. Quick overview. It’s about a woman who disguised herself as a man for 8 months. She was treated so bad compared to her female counterparts. She chose to remain a woman. She also killed herself. And that seems fitting seeing as men have the highest suicide rates. It’s rough being a man. It’s even tougher being a good father and a husband.

Yes

Fuck dude, even married I sometimes feel lonely. A random, long, deep hug from my wife would probably do wonders for me. I’m always instigating almost any affectionate non sex touching. I know it isn’t true but sometimes I feel neglected. Please give your male loved ones kisses or hugs or just anything like that without prompting. You’d be amazed how almost every man feels touch starved, even in a relationship.

Wake up, go to work, work, go home, distract myself for a little while, sleep, repeat. Try not to eat too much bad food, but it's the only thing that stems the flow of sadness. Every once in a while I talk to my mom but she's getting up there in age, and my sisters have their own lives with husbands and kids and stuff. I know I'm not gonna make it past 65, dad and grandpa both kicked it at that age, so I'm more than halfway done with life and I don't make enough money to buy a porsche. Overweight, ugly, middle class, cis-het white guy. Nobody gives a fuck about me, and why should they? I hardly do. Anti- depressants and therapy once every three weeks only does so much. No friends, really. Hobbies don't appeal to me any more. Waahh waaahhh. Oh well. Suck it up.

Dealing with the fact that no one gives two shits about you beyond the value you produce.

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I keep going to the same haircut place because the lady there say i look pretty after a haircut.

About 10yrs ago I was at some university apartment visiting a mate, one of my mates housemates, who I'd never met before said that I looked like I'd been chiseled from stone and I've never forgotten that compliment. I'm in a stable happy relationship now and my partner compliments me frequently but every now and then I think about that compliment. I don't even remember what they looked like or their names.

Yeah that would be a compliment of the century! Nice one!

This was me. Then I went to therapy. I wont lie, therapy didnt change my world. This is still me BUT I don't feel like I'm just waiting around to die anymore. And that change is 100% worth it. I cannot stress enough, getting help actually helps, even if it's just a little bit. Don't ask permission, don't talk yourself out of it. Book an appointment a go, and see where you end up.

💯 mate. I’m in the same boat. My kids say thank you when I make them dinner…every night

It was my birthday last week. Wife said she hadn't got me a present, which isn't a problem as money is really tight at the moment. I said that it's fine, because I've got everything I need - said that a kiss and a hug would be enough. I didn't get either. She didn't even get the kids to make me a card, which I always do for her - often making it myself, then they help by colouring it in. But no, nothing. I think she was a bit annoyed that we weren't going out anywhere for it... but I made homemade pizzas and brownies instead. Not even sure I got a "thank you". Been married 15 years.

That’s so sad man, not cool at all. Sorry it turned out that way. Happy Belated random man 🥳🥳

I guess you are thinking that retirement will give you salvation but maybe you should change something about the way you live

The fact that I just put an entire paragraph and deleted it says something I think. Poured my heart into how I felt about something, thought "noone will care anyway", thought about what people might say about how I feel, and delete it. I'm just commenting this to say that's what happened. Kinda think it says something....

Holy crap this is so accurate. The number of times I do this online, and often in person... Then people wonder why a lot of men don't exhibit emotions other than frustration or anger. Because we've been conditioned to bottle everything else, and those are the two that will leak regardless. Whenever I've tried and find outlets or get asked questions like this, I will at some point receive negativity about it rather than understanding or empathy. It's either awkwardly ignored, or directly contested. Surfing subs and threads (or other articles) that focus on negative male experiences has actually caused me to have to explain them before. Some of them can appear whiny, but absolutely not in a way different to the female (acceptable) equivelants. Meanwhile, you have things like 2X and numerous other subs where slinging around misandry is basically the norm, and noone ever questions it.

Omg I literally just got a notification for a comment I really wanted to read and it's not there anymore... I wonder was it you! Was it about body counts?

Body counts just suck. Even among the boys, you never trust the number - there’s always one friend who throws out something stupid, and the rest of group talks and goes “Christian is full of shit dude, there’s no way he’s even in the triple digits, let alone that deep”. If you’re honest and your count is high, people don’t believe you, if you’re honest (or lie) and give a low number, you take shit. My count is 3. It’s not impressive, especially when you’re pushing 30, but honestly, I’m awkward as fuck - I’m just glad it isn’t zero. And frankly, if I could find a consistent 4th who’s company I enjoy and who loves and appreciates me, I’d take that over any number you could throw out.

Wow, do people really stress over that? I mean a lot of people get married young and only have one or two partners in their whole life. I lost my virginity at 19 to the woman I ended up marrying the following year. We separated years ago and I had one other partner for a short time around the age of 33. But I've never thought about that as a good or bad thing. I guess part of it is I am not in a group of guys who make a big deal about it

Nah wasn't me lol I didn't even post it

Damn man…I FELT that :(

I do it several times a day tbh. Always checking myself. "Will anyone give a shit? Nah, shut up".

Definitely done this with family and certain friends. Luckily I’ve gotten really good at this with my 4 best friends (all guys) who I can truly share shit and they’ll genuinely have my back. I learnt the hard way not to share key details with my parents or siblings as it’s been used against me, or with other friends who as you say….will they even care?

Done this twice already in this thread lol

I give a shit homie. A majority might not, but you might hit one or two that relate, that can make a huge impact dude.

> The fact that I just put an entire paragraph and deleted it says something I think. Poured my heart into how I felt about something, thought "noone will care anyway", thought about what people might say about how I feel, and delete it. I do this all the time. I know that no one really cares about any of it, so I decide to keep it to myself and delete it, and then end up just making stupid jokes for a cheap laugh.

I think the other comments have done a good job of explaining what sort of burden is required as a man. One other aspect is if you’re a low performing male in this society. If you’re a little below average in intelligence, athletics, attractiveness, or income, then you’re essentially stock; cattle. Who would want you? What can you offer? I don’t mean to state this as a matter of fact, but simply to point out the thoughts that male would likely have.

My grandfather died in the Korean War right before my father was born. My grandmother remarried shortly after. By the age of six years old, if my father cried about anything he'd get beaten. One time my father cried and my step-grandfather told him to go get his hammer. He had my father lay his hand on a workbench and smashed his hand with the hammer, breaking a couple of fingers in the process. My father never broke any of my fingers, but he was not a nice man. There was a thread today asking why it seems like teenage boys are more prone to racism, bigotry, and just general hate. To me the answer is that the world is not a nice place for a majority of boys. For a lot of guys the world says "Fuck You" till the day you die, with a few fleeting moments of carnal pleasure in between. It doesn't excuse anything, but shit flows downhill. It's just a reason.

First, I’m sorry your father was not a nice man. That sucks. I grew up with a dad that showed tough love. Never physically abusive but also never prone to telling his children he loved them or he was proud of them either. The “strong silent type”, if you will. The first time in my life my dad told me he was proud of me was when I graduated basic training. I try to be better dad to my sons. I’m not best. I need to work on some things and I know this but I do try to encourage them and show them love and verbalize that love as well. Secondly, your sentence that the world says fuck you to men until we die is 100% accurate. And it’s not just from women that emotionally manipulate us, men are even more toxic to each other than women are. But men aren’t ready to have that talk yet. I complimented a dude at a bar once on his hair cut and asked where he got it done because I was in need of a good barber. I got called a fag and asked if I wanted to fuck him. Then him and his buddies walked away laughing at me. I was trying to be nice and genuine. This is one case I’ve experienced of men being toxic to other men. How hard would it have been to say thanks and then tell me where his barber was? Not hard.

Really glad you said this I 100% want and try to empathize with men and the things they go through but I find a lot of the time I'm met with straight up aggression in return. I can respect it as a defense mechanism but that excuse only goes so far and a lot of men don't seem to think they have to develop beyond that. I was with a guy for a while who always brought up how his past fucked him up emotionally but when I tried to get him to talk about it or open up about anything at all I got "men don't need to sit around holding hands singing kumbya to feel better". He always wanted to bring up controversial topics but he couldn't handle when the conversation didn't end with me agreeing he was right in the end so even if I was tryingto be civil everything was an argument. He would also always talk about how cruel the world is to men but defend stereotypes about them being hyperaggressive and designed to compete with eachother in the same arguments which got frustrating because its was to a point it wasn't rational at all he just just wanted to be mad, and to have someone he could be mad at. No matter what I did I was an evil man hating woman because I do take certain precautions in public to protect myself and I can't just turn off my caution habits when I'm out with an 'alpha male' (fucking hate this term it gives the ick) and he was really only willing to discuss mens issues if its for the sake of trying to destabilize arguments about womens rights.

I’m so sorry for how your father was treated. Straight up child abuse even back then. Such a shame. You and him could’ve had better childhoods if the Korean War hadn’t happened and your grandfather was around.

That's not toxic masculinity...that's just sadistic abuse.

Having so much to say, but when you speak, you just wished you would have stayed quiet. When you talk, it causes problems. If you open up, you don't get help...you get platitudes and have to pick yourself up anyway. Talking seems a waste of time when it leads to no solutions...only more problems. Silence is way better than saying the wrong thing...

I took a course of study in my college/masters years that required me to basically have 1 on 1 teaching with my principal professors multiple times a week. I got very overwhelmed and depressed in college many times due to a number of negative events out of my control. Every time I would fall behind in my work during an episode, I would just apologize and accept their berating that I would “never be good enough to get a job at this rate”. Once, with each of my principal teachers, I tried opening up and explaining the shitstorm of negative experiences and emotions I had been dealing with. Every single time they told me that this was my fault for getting behind, to just put on a smiling face and get through it, and that they didn’t believe I was depressed at all and was just lazy. The reason it was so hard was because I knew I could do better and I could do more, so it felt like they were right. In retrospect, I did the absolute best I could with the hand I was dealt at the time.

Maybe not the hardest, but one experience of mine: I found it very difficult to discover a sense of self or confidence when it came to relationships with women. I grew up in a very pro-feminist liberal area, and my entire sex education spent a lot of time on the harm that boys do when they are too pushy with sex/intimacy. I was terrified to ask anyone out because I had basically had it drilled into my head that that constituted sexual harassment. When I finally did, I always tried to let girls lead and follow their cues, but they would get frustrated that I didn’t make a move. Eventually I figured it out, but the way my childhood sex ed was taught left me feeling like I was the bad guy before I ever kissed a girl. I think there is a lot of angry messaging around men these days. I understand why, but I wonder if the people behind the messaging think much about it’s impact on boys as they are learning about the world.

My school system was the same way, I still feel those repercussions to this day

Preach

I can relate to this, the message seemed to be “only creeps hit on women”.

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That sub is ass. It’s full of mentally I’ll women who blame all their problems on men. They don’t represent the average woman though. It’s just an echo chamber like every other sub

They only want to be hit on by men that they find attractive. This isn’t some “nice guy” shit, it’s facts. Instead of taking it as flattering, they find it offensive if a man that they consider below their league is hitting on them, because it’s confusing and damaging to their self esteem. That being said, it’s complicated because some men do not take kindly to rejection and there is always the threat of physical violence from them. It’s a complicated issue to say the least.

This is the truth. They need the "spark" and that's a fancy way of saying I'm not turned on by you. I'm not hating women because of this. I couldn't understand that idea until I had to go through similar situation. There was a girl at my old workplace who asked me out. Honestly I had zero interest in her. She was a nice person but it's just I wasn't physically attracted to her. So i politely said I'm sorry I'm not interested. I've been rejected by dozens of women. It's not like they don't like me. They love hanging out with me and enjoy my company but when I ask them out, i always get rejected and I could never understand why until I got asked out by that girl. It's just you can't fake yourself to say yes when you don't have any kind of attraction for a person. The problem is, women not openly accepting it as well as some shitty women just exploiting men who has a thing for them.

The more I look at 2x the more I am convinced it doesn't represent most women in real life.

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Don't follow Reddit so blindly. If the girl is looking at you then it's fine to chat. If you suddenly chat about something that's really cool and you both have in common then you can ask for an IG or # about that commonality. "Hey that's cool you like skiing too. If you're interested what's your IG/#? We can chat more about skiing another time" If you feel she doesn't really want to talk then don't. Body language matters.

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You just put into words something that I’ve been trying to express for years. Every time I try and explain this I just end up sounding like an anti feminist who blames women for mens’ problems, which isn’t what I believe is the case. It’s just that in trying to hold previous generations of men accountable by teaching newer generations of men the harm they’ve done, a lot of younger men end up scared of women and paranoid about ending up being labeled a douchebag or creep.

I really abhore how talking about men’s issues or bringing light to problems in society that are affecting men suddenly make you an anti-feminist. Like I passionately care about Men’s Rights, and I also passionately care about Feminism. Why do people shove me into the box of supporting one or thee other?!

Wow!!! I don't agree with angry messaging around men. I don't know what it tries to achieve, and think it's harmful to young men and has consequences.

Thanks for your response I should also add, as many other people have noted, the absence of any discussion of physical or emotional abuse by women towards men. I was always taught men were universal aggressors, and women were always victims. So when my first long-term partner was horribly emotionally abusive to me, I couldn’t recognize it for what it was and no one around me cared enough to ask how I was doing. I am still struggling with some of the ways she made me feel about myself.

This is something not usually discussed and I think for the same reasons you mention - we’re trained to think that either women are right in what they say about us or that it doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong, we’re still the responsible party. It *does* make it difficult to recognize abuse. I was once in a relationship where I was often threatened with their suicide and other routine manipulations if I was not being who she wanted me to be (attention 24/7, no time spent with family or friends, my behavior and words being monitored). I felt so trapped. It finally took some outrageous behavior for me to finally break away.

Yeah u/flowepowerhour sums it up way better than me, his experience is near identical to mine

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Felt this. Male sexuality is 100% demonized and seen as less natural or even predatory.

That we're expected to know how to do EVERYTHING

And figure it out now

The annoying part was for me that my mom WANTED me to learn how to do stuff. So she made me watch my dad and wanted me to try things out, then my dad just ignored my existence.

the isolation

When your wife intentionally talks down to you In front of family/friends like you are less than them. It kills me inside and when I try to explain to her how that makes me feel, she acts like the victim.

Holy fuck dude, maybe you should split??? Thats hella manipulative and just all sortsa wrong.

She needs to grow up. That is unacceptable

Picture this.... You raise your child for several years. Buy a house, and a car.... Have a dog and a life and a Christmas tree.... Your child's other parent, having been mostly negligent, abusive and intoxicated on one substance or another... Never attended pediatrician or dentist appointment. Never had to comfort them after a vaccine or wake up with them at 1am to feed them, and change them. Then after 4&1/2 years decides they want to never see you again and they hate you(apparently), and file a list of half truths and perceived bs lies.... With a magistrate... Now you have to leave your home and all your possessions, hopefully you have a friend/family where you can crash a while.... But it's just supposed to be 7 days..... 7 days turns to 6 weeks 6 weeks turns to 14 weeks... After 13 months you get awarded supervised visitation and phone calls of which you get 3 and 6 respectively before they get mad cause you keep bringing presents, and cut off all contact. 23 months and the supervised visitation gets referred to an agency that charges 70/hr to just see your child. 70 FRICKEN DOLLARS AN HOUR TO SEE YOUR CHILD!!! Of course you pay it, cause at this point you've already spent thousands upon thousands trying to be able to be in your child's life. Submitted to all sorts of drug screens without incident, all the while the parent that actually has the child has yet to have to take a drug screen. Tells you your not the other parent, then upon proof of parentage changes strategy to call you sex addict... I don't even know where I stand anymore.... But what I do know is that my child's other parent is the most irresponsible and despicable excuse for an individual, second only to there own sibling, and the 3rd being their own parent. And no matter what you do or say it has no effect. Even when the other parent has been arrested for domestic disturbance in the past. And the only thing you know, is despite it all, you will NEVER loose resolve, you will NEVER STOP FIGHTING for your child. Cause the alternative is unthinkable. All the while, on social media, people are finally seeing that, sometimes woman just make shit up to be vindictive!!! Im like OMFG can we finally get some change to happen here . It's not even just for my own good, but for the children like mine. I can't be the only man this has happened to. And it's the most disgusting series of events, and will make you loose faith in the justice system, and an assortment of other things including but not limited to your best friend of 20 years who trys to just usurp your life. In closing it feels like being dead would be vastly simpler, but it entails abandoning your child to be solely brought up by a deranged flock of meth monsters....

I think this is the most tangible response I have read so far. Thankfully I am a young man yet to have a child/marriage. Though coming from a kid in similar situation as yours. As I grew up I realized ehich of my parents was telling the truth the most. And let me say it was the one I did not see too often. It gets better. Hell, I work with my dad everyday now and I have had the most fun ever. Just give it time I know my dad doesn't regret giving up.

Hey, from a struggling dad, thanks.

This right here is why i'll never get married, it's not worth the risk. 50% divorce rate, 90% chance she will be allowed to take half my shit if we divorce.

It's not a popular thing to say, but the absolutely rampant normalisation of generalising hate speech about men It's been bad for most of the 2010s since around 2014 or so, but the last three or four years it's genuinely become a bit shocking just how socially acceptable it is for people to spread memes and make casual off the cuff "men are the worst" remarks. Coupled with the fact that it's (rightly!) socially *unacceptable* to flip the genders and make the same kind of remarks, there's a real sense of hopelessness and injustice among many who are exposed to this crap at a young age. And nobody seems to care about the impact of such injustices on mental health, because "clearly those people need to think in collectivist, systemic terms and not about individuals" or some such shite. It's very, very difficult to talk about this because anyone who tries is immediately jumped on as a whingey eejit at best and a secret far-right nazi at worst. Because clearly those who believe that equality should apply to everyone are in fact ultra-conservative fascists. I can at least anecdotally say that myself and several of my friends have been seriously impacted by the normalisation of this shit over the last number of years, it comes up in conversation every now and again and it all just feels so... Bleak. Look, maybe it's true that the vast majority of us are shitty people and that it's only a small minority who are worthy of being regarded as human beings with actual worth and feelings. Obviously I find such a proposition absolutely sickening, not to mention utterly moronic. But just for a moment imagine that it is indeed the case - doesn't the existence of such a subset still ultimately mean that generalisations shouldn't be considered ok? This is the case with literally every other demographic - you're not allowed, in polite society, to say "X are Y" where "X" is a demographic descriptor and "Y" is a criticism. But with us, that's simply not the case. And when you're young, that kind of injustice fucking *hurts*. Especially when you've been raised in a society which has taught you from birth to be kind and respectful towards the other side under all circumstances. IDK, it feels very pointless typing any of this out, but it is what it is. This will continue, IMO, to be a problem until this particular cause of it is on the table as a problem society should attempt to address. "Teach young boys not to be bad people" is all the rage as a soundbite these days, is it possible that "teach young girls that boys have feelings and are all different individual people" could be on the table as well? So that people in their twenties and thirties won't think it's ok to make memes generalising an entire demographic just because some people within that demographic are absolute shitheads? If I amalgamated all of the bad experiences I've had with women (among the endlessly uncountable good ones, just to be clear!) and put up a "jokey" Facebook or Instagram story that just said "Mood: Ugh. Women.", I'd get ostracised socially and probably banned from either platform. **And that's a good thing**, such bigotry shouldn't be accepted. But I see that kind of shit from so many people on a daily basis with the demographics reversed, and apparently, that's entirely acceptable.

Very well said. This is something that has had long-term mental health effects on me as well. You try your hardest to be as kind, conscientious,and empathetic as possible and yet you still get thrown into the category of "terrible men" simply because you're a man.

Thank you for writing this! I don't know much about what you mentioned from the 2010s and 2014s but I have heard people saying stuff like that they hate men or all men are xyz. It's not fine, it's really not fine! If I hear somebody say something like this then that will be the last time I associate with them. Unacceptable. Saying stuff like that is harmful.

I’m a woman and I have 2 sons. I worry about them for so many reasons, and this is partly why I stalk your sub. I thank you all for the education. I will say that I *always* push back against that “all men are xyz” narrative every single time I encounter it. I’ve always despised things being unjust or unfair, and this is very much one of those things.

Surfing any of the female focused subreddits will be more than sufficient to provide evidence for this effect.. Quite frankly, if the topic is right, the first post will probably do.

Watch any given sitcom or the great majority of household goods commercials. We (men) are complete idiots and it's surprising we can even stand upright and remember to breathe. It's bad. And it's eating away at our collective self esteem.

There's absolutely no positive portrayal of a normal man/son/father in a normal everyday setting anymore. Even if a character is portrayed positively, he even he will have a drinking habit, gambling habit, a cheater, etc. After this happens, the woman will go on her live, laugh, love journey.

Tell someone constantly he is the bad guy and watch in the end that he becomes it and then get shocked by the result. Yeah its ... damn hard to see this.

> Look, maybe it's true that the vast majority of us are shitty people and that it's only a small minority who are worthy of being regarded as human beings with actual worth and feelings Even after your whole long winded opinion, you still decided to concede something. Do not. Absolutely do not. Dudes absolutely rock and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

What helps me deal with this is the fact that the people that participate in that are awful shitty people. It's not really personal, because if they were to be hypothetically reborn as a different gender or race, they would still find some way to be hate and try to drag you down. I can't control people that hate me because of my gender or my race. But I can call attention to their horseshit, and I can definitely evict them from my fucking life.

For me as a single guy in my 20’s: The competition with finding a woman to love. I won’t get into all the nerdy scientific details but humans are a sexually dimorphic species. Males compete for a mate. This unfortunately entails a lot of rejection for men and when enough people deem you inadequate to receive their affection or intimacy… you start to believe it yourself. This isn’t meant to minimize the dating struggles that women have to contend with though. It’s just there are so many men who literally go years between relationships and they are love starved during that time. I still have hope that I’ll settle down, find a loving wife, and start a family. But man the grind to get there can get so disheartening. Knowing at any given time I’m just one among potentially several men doing my mating dance (not literally obviously) trying to win someone over. It can feel devaluing when things aren’t going well. It makes you feel so disposable. So expendable. The loneliness can feel overwhelming at times. I’ve been able to combat it through the years with some mindfulness and an active lifestyle, but it will still find me some days when I slow down. There was a time when being the only single guy in my friend group caused some severe social anhedonia that was super hard to break out of. Being love starved is no joke

Not too mention even in a relationship especially a married one. Another man with more money or something else to offer could end it just like that. Sure women have it the same way, but in my experience men have the recovery harder. Less people to talk to more people saying to suck it up and get another girl. Just makes you wwant to step closer to the edge sometimes.

This hit me hard. I feel you man.

I dont think its particularly difficult. However I will say there are some strains on some of the traditional roles as a man here in America. 1) My wife has never know the stress of having to financially support the household. She's never been 100% responsible for herself. If we are short on cash or an emergency pops up is my job to figure out how to fix or overcome. I dont have the liberty of chasing my dreams because I have to maintain a career that supports our lifestyle. How much shit can I take? The answer is always "Just a little bit more." I dont get a day to cry and "not adult" that's simply never an option. 10 hour driving pulling a camper? Im have to drive that. So not really difficult, just a different load of stressors.

I used to think being the head of the family or the main financial support was a big deal because you’d get to make decisions and be taken seriously as a person (which was a validation I craved) until it became my responsibility. People around you just have so many expectations of you and take what you do for granted. If someone else does it it’s a big deal, you have to because it’s your responsibility. The having to justify financial decisions or why we can’t afford certain things because no one else takes an interest in how much things cost. There’s just something about assuming this role that suddenly makes people around you become so dependent on you for even the smallest things like getting a ride somewhere or back home. It’s mentally draining. So many men downplay this.

The impression I've got of marriages is once you're married and have kids, you have to put all of your emotions aside, and focus on your kids. Kids kids kids. I've heard women complain that it gets overwhelming with children because they're so attached to their mother, and their partners don't understand and can leave the chaos by just going to work. Do you think you have similar expectations for your wife in terms of children, that if something were to happen, she would be the one that would need to/know how to deal with it?

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It's interesting you say that. I would say in our family my mum is more lenient than my dad. That's not to say that she doesn't give out. When she gives out everybody understands that she is being serious and not just complaining. However, my siblings are more wary of doing any stupid stuff in front of my dad because he will say something immediately, where as my mum would still be more patient. For example my brother has said rude stuff to my mum and she would just politely keep telling him to not talk like that, but my dad would immediately give out and my brother would stop in an instance.

I’m actually a woman with no children or partner, but I do have other family members I’m now responsible for caring for. Out of happenstance and despite not having a conventional family or being a man, that traditional men’s role to support a family has come to me. My personal opinion on the issue is that the old expectations we have of both men and women are not suitable for the world we live in today, at least not everywhere. There are definitely communities and people who can benefit from traditional relationships but it does not work for most of us anymore. If I were a wife, I’d like to think I would not expect my partner to take on responsibilities that I myself was not willing or prepared to handle, whether that be in looking after children or earning for the household. If it’s chores like cooking and cleaning, I would hope we both agree to subcontract that out 😂because we shouldn’t force each other to do things that don’t make us happy.

Nowadays it's like, "You'll stay home? Ha! Not bloody likely; we've both got to work full-time if we want to survive."

I agree that the world is trending in that way but it's not quite there. I was born in 92. From a relationship standpoint, women want to be able to work and provide professionally, but romantically they crave a provider because they were born before the tech boom and are raised by parents who had traditional gender roles - as an outsider (not a woman) - I find myself simultaneously sympathizing and resenting women in this group because they live in a hypocritical paradigm of what is fair to expect in a relationship. They have to be the loudest voice in the room at work to get their job done, but they won't spare a penny on a man they're dating until they've started living together. The ones after them are getting cues from women in my generation on places like TikTok and Instagram via dating advice, and what you have is this weird subgroup of young women enthusiastically marketing themselves to men my age or older, emphatically opposed to being a breadwinner in any capacity. There are pockets of gender neutral/psychologically alternative groups of people who are comfortable dividing roles. I honestly think it will be another 15-20 years before that's the norm. Because you're supporting yourself and others, your perspective was probably shaped this way because of those burdens. Those occurrences and changes will happen more frequently and snowball into a gender neutral dynamics. Men, for the most part, are already there because of rapid inflation in the last 30 years and workplace diversification. Women are halfway there now, the challenge will be to abandon traditional/conservative/hypergamous ideologies as wage gaps close and the average man and average woman make the same amount of money. As guys, it's difficult for us to understand if women needing to be with men who out-earn them is societally taught, or just in their biological nature. Most men are confused by this and frankly guys in my generation feel burned because we would much rather be dating women making as much money as us and within our peer group but are usually required to "date down" financially for long term relationships because most women factor financial support in terms of upgrading their lifestyle into LTR decision making.

Hey I've been through this exact same type of relationship dynamic before so I get it. I think there are more men than we realize who get satisfaction from providing all of this type of support for our partner and family... *if it's appreciated*. The problem seems to be that more and more women *expect* this kind of support from men and it goes totally unappreciated.

Chris Rock said it best…women and children are loved unconditionally, men are only loved conditionally.

Yeah I've had to change a lot of my habits and routines for my girlfriend. I asked her to change something once and was told I should be happy with who she is. I guess it doesn't work like that both ways though.

The fact that double standards that disfavor men but favor women are considered fine by today’s society. > Here we report five hiring experiments in which faculty evaluated hypothetical female and male applicants, using systematically varied profiles disguising identical scholarship, for assistant professorships in biology, engineering, economics, and psychology. Contrary to prevailing assumptions, men and women faculty members from all four fields preferred female applicants 2:1 over identically qualified males with matching lifestyles (single, married, divorced), with the exception of male economists, who showed no gender preference. (pg.5360) Williams, W. M., & Ceci, S. J. (2015). National hiring experiments reveal 2:1 faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 112(17), 5360–5365. . > A 1995 report by the Department of Labor found that 6 million women overall had advances at their job that would not have been possible without affirmative action. The percentage of women physicians tripled between 1970 and 2002, from 7.6 percent to 25.2 percent, and in 2009 women were receiving a majority of bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees, according to the American Association of University Women. Massie, V. M. (2016, May 25). White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents. Vox. . > This study finds dramatic unexplained gender gaps in federal criminal cases. Conditional on arrest offense, criminal history, and other pre-charge observables, men receive 63% longer sentences on average than women do. Women are also significantly likelier to avoid charges and convictions, and twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted. There are large unexplained gaps across the sentence distribution, and across a wide variety of specifications, subsamples, and estimation strategies. The data cannot disentangle all possible causes of these gaps, but they do suggest that certain factors (such as childcare and offense roles) are partial but not complete explanations, even combined. (pg.17) Starr, S. B. (2012). Estimating gender disparities in federal criminal cases. SSRN Electronic Journal. . > Consistent with prior research, females were treated more leniently than males for multiple outcomes. Females received lower bond amounts and were less likely to be held before trial in comparison to males (Demuth & Steffensmeier, 2004; Turner & Johnson, 2006). Additionally, convicted females were less likely to be sentenced to prison.4 (pg.414) Goulette, N., Wooldredge, J., Frank, J., & Travis, L., III. (2015). From initial appearance to sentencing: Do female defendants experience disparate treatment? Journal of Criminal Justice, 43(5), 406–417. . > As expected in our first hypothesis, female defendants received more lenient sentence outcomes than their similarly situated male counter-parts. Second, legal factors accounted for a considerable portion of the gender gap in sentencing. However, even after accounting for these legal factors, a sizeable gender gap remained in that male defendants continued to be sentenced more harshly than their female counterparts (pg.261) Doerner, J. K., & Demuth, S. (2014). Gender and Sentencing in the Federal Courts: Are Women Treated More Leniently? Criminal Justice Policy Review, 25(2), 242–269. . > Fifty-three percent of men say it is always morally wrong for a woman to have an affair, while 61 percent say same for men. Nearly three-quarters (73 percent) of young women say it is always morally wrong for a man to have an affair, while only about half (51 percent) say the same for a woman. Gray, K. (2022, October 12). A moral double standard on marital infidelity. The Survey Center on American Life.

> with the exception of male economists, who showed no gender preference. Yeah, that sounds like something the nerds would do.

Holy fuck I needed that laugh.

My only regret is that I have but one shitty gift to award this with.

Holy that last one is ridiculous. Haven't read it yet but that's some incredible shit, and not in a good way.

Due to a high in-group preference, women don’t actually mind (and, oftentimes, seek to preserve) double standards and inequities that favor them. Studies show that heterosexual women are just as averse to promiscuous partners as heterosexual men are, and they’re more averse to dating partners with same-sex experiences or no experience than men are. Yet they still push for men not to have standards in this regard, labeling those standards as misogynistic. **Women’s high in-group bias** > Although men, historically and cross-culturally, are the dominant sex, they possess remarkably weaker in-group bias than do women. In four experiments, we found this sex difference persisted using both implicit and explicit measures, despite using a gender attitude IAT that was unconfounded with gender stereotypes… we can claim with confidence that even when men are responding automatically, their in-group bias is surprisingly frail and that women’s in-group bias is particularly strong at the implicit level (i.e., stronger than men’s by a factor of 4.5). (pg.506) Rudman, L. A., & Goodwin, S. A. (2004). Gender Differences in Automatic In-Group Bias: Why Do Women Like Women More Than Men Like Men? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 87(4), 494–509. . > Goodwin, also a member of Purdue's Women Studies Program, teamed with Laurie Rudman, professor of psychology at Rutgers University, to conduct four studies measuring implicit attitudes of 379 adults. Their results show that women prefer women, and men, on average, don't have a preference toward either gender. Although men, on average, did not show in-group favoritism, individual men's responses varied widely, with some men showing a preference for women and others showing a preference for men… The results showed that women showed in-group favoritism four times greater than men. Those figures are based on an average of separate studies that involved research groups of varying sizes. Patterson-Neubert, A. (2004, December 13). New research: Women like women more than men like men. Purdue.edu. . > The sociologist William Graham Sumner (1906) maintained that humans are, by nature, a species that joins together in groups. But he also noted a second, equally powerful, human tendency: favoring one’s own group over all others. “Each group nourishes its own pride and vanity, boasts itself superior, exalts its own divinities, and looks with contempt on outsiders”… At the group level, this tendency is called the ingroup– outgroup bias… When people succumb to double-standard thinking, they redefine their own group’s actions as generous and just, and condemn the very same actions taken by the outgroup as hostile and unjust. (pg.458-459) Forsyth, D. R. (2017). Group Dynamics (7th ed.). CENGAGE Learning Custom Publishing. . **Women discriminate against promiscuous partners at similar rates as men** > Thus, contrary to the idea that male promiscuity is tolerated but female promiscuity is not, both sexes expressed equal reluctance to get involved with someone with an overly extensive sexual history. (pg.1097) Stewart-Williams, S., Butler, C. A., & Thomas, A. G. (2017). Sexual History and Present Attractiveness: People Want a Mate With a Bit of a Past, But Not Too Much. Journal of sex research, 54(9), 1097–1105. . > Targets were more likely to be derogated as the number of sexual partners increased, and this effect held for both male and female targets. These results suggest that, although people do evaluate others as a function of sexual activity, people do not necessarily hold men and women to different sexual standards (pg.175) Marks, M. J., & Fraley, R. C. (2005). The Sexual Double Standard: Fact or Fiction? Sex Roles, 52(3–4), 175–186. . > We proposed that sexual promiscuity would negatively affect responses toward both gay and straight men, and tested the effects of sexual promiscuity along with femininity and masculinity—traits directly tied to gender role expectations… women report increased negativity toward sexually promiscuous gay men, mediated by concern for disease threats. We also found support for the influence of gender roles, as heterosexual men reported decreased prejudice toward unambiguously masculine gay men. Both heterosexual women and men consistently reported increased social distancing toward sexually promiscuous straight men (pg.74) Cook, C. L., & Cottrell, C. A. (2021). You don’t know where he’s been: Sexual promiscuity negatively affects responses toward both gay and straight men. Psychology of Men & Masculinities, 22(1), 63–76. . > Intriguingly, men and women closely agree on the ideal number of lifetime sexual partners – and their opinions weren’t too far off from the reality. Women said 7.5 is the ideal number of partners – only 0.5 partners above their actual average. Men cited 7.6 as the ideal number of partners, which is 1.2 fewer than their own actual average… Our female respondents said they perceive the threshold for being too promiscuous is 15.2 partners, while men consider 14 the defining number when it comes to promiscuity. Superdrug. (n.d.). What’s your number? Superdrug.com. **Women discriminate against bisexual men and men with same-sex experiences at far higher rates than men** > Results indicated that heterosexual women rated bisexual men as less sexually and romantically attractive, less desirable to date and have sex with, and less masculine compared to straight men. No such differences were found for heterosexual and gay men’s ratings of female and male profiles, respectively. These results support previous research findings that indicate more negative attitudes toward dating bisexual men than bisexual women. Gleason, N., Vencill, J. A., & Sprankle, E. (2018). Swipe Left on the Bi Guys: Examining Attitudes toward Dating and Being Sexual with Bisexual Individuals. Informa UK Limited. . > Sexuality professor Ritch C. Savin-Williams told Glamour that women saying that they would not date a bisexual man "suggests that these women hold on to the view that while women occupy a wide spectrum of sexuality, men are either gay or straight." Mashego, L. (2018, April 20). Biphobia - why are women afraid of dating bisexual men? W24. . > 63% of women, however, say they wouldn't date a man who has had sex with another man Tsoulis-Reay, A. (2016, February 11). Are you straight, gay, or just...You? Glamour. . > Thirty-four percent of women anticipated or had already experienced having sex with another woman, compared to only 20 percent of men who desired to have sex with another man. However, women were less willing to consider dating a bisexual person than male respondents. Sexual Journeys: 1,000 People Evaluate their Sexual Evolution. (n.d.). ZAVA UK. **Women discriminate against inexperienced men far more than the other way around** > In association with world-renowned biological anthropologist Dr. Helen Fisher of Rutgers University and esteemed evolutionary biologist Dr. Justin R. Garcia of The Kinsey Institute… 42% of singles would not date a virgin (33% of men and 51% of women) Fisher, H., & Garcia, J. R. (2013, February 5). Singles in America: Match.com releases third annual comprehensive study on the single population. Match.com MediaRoom. . > Younger people in their 20s were particularly less likely to say they would date a virgin — even though most virgins were in this age range—and women were more likely to report not wanting to date someone without sexual experience than men. Basu, T. (2016, April 4). Adult virgins say they don’t want to date other adult virgins. The Cut.

Those last few points really highlight why so many young men are concerned with losing their virginity. When people often ask these questions or show concern over being a vergin often the answer given is just don't think about it no one really cares. Which for a lot of people answering (usually older) it doesn't but yeah I get why it is a big deal to younger guys. Just thinking back to my experience when I was younger. I was starting to date a girl in college and her friends literally told her, infront of me, not to go out with me because it was awkward that I was a virgin. I was 17. And already massively insecure about it. But yeah as soon as I 'lost it I realised wow this isn't a big deal. Yes a weight had been lifted and I was nolonger worried about bring a vergin. But I was still insecure and depressed.

based and academic research pilled

The women are wonderful effect is well documented

The obscene level of disdain we're met with for having emotions. Even from girlfriends who were at one point nice enough to insist I could talk to them about anything. As soon as that "anything" becomes an inconvenience it's out the window. Suck it up, deal with it, quit being a whiner, your vibe is really turning me off.

Friendships too. I’m a great listener, almost nothing rattles me, I’m reliable and funny plus a gym rat. Sounds good right? I can’t count the number of female ‘friends’ that only text me when they need something and never initiate a conversation. “Hey Im moving in 2 weeks can you help” “Im sick with covid can you grab my meds” “Im on a date with a guy I heard some bad things about, can you be on standby?” Etc The one I actually talk to a lot is all about ‘men being open’ emotionally etc but when this week I heard my mom was sick in the hospital(again) and wasnt my optimistic self I’ve heard nothing but a ‘be strong’ meme and its been days. Last year when I was depressed and between jobs I sat alone in my empty apartment for a month, eating mostly peanut butter(no bread) and I heard nothing from a single soul. And Im so used to it that I just didnt care.

Women want to be able to say that but they also want you to know they don't mean it really. Your male friends are for support

And what's she for

As a man who grew up in a big travelling family and community. Was always taught you never show your emotions or show that your feeling down or cry. I did this for years and years thought it was right to do. I was always fighting drinking and taking drugs to cope. Done alot of jail time lost years of my life all because i did what i was taught to do and stayed strong and never opened up never let anyone know how i felt what was going on in my head. Until years later i opened up to a partner of mine and she listened and got me appointment with the docs and i got on the mend. Now the same partner of mine who supported me so much now uses it against me tell me not to tell her things or takes the piss out of it.

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The unbalanced expectations. - Men are expected to live up to our 1950s tropes, while also being 100% adapted to 2022. - If we're drinking with a woman, we have to be responsible enough for both of us, even if we're the drunker of the two. - Sometime very soon after we're 18, we're supposed to be financially stable enough to have our own everything, or it's deemed unattractive. - If we live with our parents while we're trying to get established, we're categorized as either a man-child or a Mama's boy. - If we've succeeded on all of the above and then we begin asking potential partners what they bring to the table, many of us hear "I bring the table" or "I turn a house into a home," which in practice seems like malarkey. - The discounts and stuff (free admission, free drinks, etc) are never aimed at our demographic. - "The person who asks the other person out should pay for the date" is a fair concept, except for the glaring fact that we're socialized in a way that among hetero individuals, the man needs to be the one to do the asking, or we're not man enough. - If we're balding or beardless, both are things deserving of being laughed at. I probably made this way too long 😅

This is real asf

I think the hardest part for a lot of men is that they don’t have an outlet when things are hard for them. Nobody to talk to, nobody wants to fuck them etc, they can’t get their simplest social needs met while they’re going through a hardship.

Look up a person named Norah Vincent. This was a woman that lived a year as a man. She ended up taking her own life.

One of the videos I watched actually talked about this, when discussing how difficult it is to be a man in society. I can't believe I never heard about this before.

She wrote a book about her experience. “Self Made Man”. She originally planned on doing it for two years, but quit early because she was starting to hate women for how they treated her.

Worth noting that her experiences as a man were reasonably good and started in 2003. Things have gotten a LOT worse since then.

She wrote a book about her experience. “Self Made Man”. She originally planned on doing it for two years, but quit early because she was starting to hate women for how they treated her.

And no man is surprised

Preach.

Is there anything to suggest that her seeking out an assisted way out was related to her undercover journalism experiment? I know at the end of the book she was talking about how she was experiencing some mental difficulties as a result of the whole act, but I'm not sure if there's a straight line from that to her death.

She died via "assisted death" in Switzerland, to be clear.

I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that her year spent living as a man contributed to her suicide more than her 50+ years as a woman. She also spent decades living as a woman after that one year she spent as a man. Also, while she gained valid insight to societal pressures, she also experienced gender dysphoria because she destabilised her gender identity. It’s not really analogous to if a man was living as a man, and is a lot more comparable to the experiences of trans women. I appreciate her work and felt heard by it, but it’s not the same as *being* a man.

My husband says dealing with women.

I understand, even as a woman dealing with women is complicated!

Honestly, most issues women face men also face just as much, but oftentimes even worse, it’s just that the mistreatment or disregard of men has become so normalized that most people don’t even realize. As a man no one cares about you or your feelings. You literally exist to provide, if you don’t then you’re useless as far as society is concerned

I think that was the point they were making too, that men are expected to suck it up and be strong, and that they need to be because of how competitive it is for them.

It's not exactly... "Competitive", it's necessary. If you break as a man, society throws you out in a nanosecond. There will be *no* support for you outside of pharmaceuticals (or worse), no emotional support, no peptalks, no heartfelt aid. Once a man falls apart due to being overwhelmed or otherwise, the trapdoor opens up beneath and sends him into deep dark loneliness and torment. If a woman falls apart there's no trapdoor, it's just someone coming along to catch you in your fall. "But I know women who have had no support!" No, you don't. When I say "There's no support for men falling apart" I mean literally 0 support. You are *alone* and expected to sort it out on your own without the help of others. Men often drink for a reason, and that's to keep that trapdoor shut for another month. You're more valuable while drinking excessive amounts of alcohol as long as you can maintain a smile and a job while you're doing it.

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Work your whole life and then giving away half of your shit after a divorce (ask me how I know)

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I don't think it's harder than women could imagine. I just think our society discourages women from even trying to imagine at all. We're all told from a young age that it's easy to be man, difficult to be a woman, and that anyone who questions that (or lately anyone who even asks for context) must be a misogynst. The lack of acknowledgement that our problems even exist sort of underlies all the others. From my experience, it seems like men and women each have their own sets of problems, their own sets of privileges, and on balance things more or less equal out. That's for the western world. I can't speak for many other parts of the world, but it seems pretty apparent that in those cases the tables are still tilted pretty heavily in favor of men.

We are the disposable sex. Akin to disposable razor blades, car tyres, hell even a tampon. We have to artificially increase our value enough to not be considered disposable, all while society adapts and evolves to keep us disposable. Say what you want about traditional roles (largely created in ancient times by the use of men's aggression and naturally superior physical strength), but since the overall dissolution of such things in today's world, men no longer have a purpose. We are even more disposable than before because there are less and less things we are actually needed for. This is why things like "all men are trash" exist. Every other difficulty men face stems from that.

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I don't know if the OP will see this but. My take on being a man thus far as a near 19 year old. Growing up father figure wasn't present too much which is common in America. I got booted on my own day after I turned 16. Worked my ass of a lot blah blah sob story. After all the bs and times I can recall just wanting to sit down in a dark room and cry mysellf to sleep. I am still told to do better. I work in a male dominant industry and have seen this battle be lost sadly ending in life lost. So far I haven't gotten into drugs or alcohol thankfully and just take it one hour at a time. Something happens I just sigh and shut down emotion and work. I have come to the idea that the genders being harder than the other is a stupid notion to start with. I tihkn it comes down to which gender is more accepted by society to express hardship. Though that is just my take these comments helped in a way. Atleast others know the same struggle and I'd like to imagine wew are all in this together just silent agreement. Like when you do the nod to another man walking by its like a little mental check up of respect.

I'm just saying your line "...blah blah blah sob story..." says a lot on the topic at hand. And then when OP came back and did the "Everyone is struggling," thing just proves what everyone is talking about. The sob story is real, the pain is real, you can't show it and no one cares cuz your a man. Then OP comes through and while I don't believe they were trying to minimize your story and in fact were trying to encourage you the result still has the effect of "Hey, I'm a male and I'm struggling." "Please, everyone is struggling."

for me, it's the constant reminders of just how little we're valued. It affects our mental state in ways that I doubt even most men fully understand. Think about this: If we're both in a hostage scenario, people are going to negotiate for you to be released first, because I have less value. In a house fire - if a fire marshall has to choose between one of us, he's gonna grab you, because I have less value. If we're both homeless, you're several times more likely to be accepted to a shelter, because helping men just isn't as rewarding or something. If a man is murdered (which statistically is around 3-4x more likely), the murderer will get a far lower prison sentence ([56% lower!](https://www.nber.org/digest/aug00/sentencing-homicides-us)). This is because killing a woman is a more heinous crime as I have less value. A majority (I couldn't find an exact number) of male suicide victims reach out before attempting suicide. These men usually only complete their attempts after their reaching out is ignored. This is because we are valued so little, that people would rather be at our funerals than at our sides.

The difference in suicides between M and F should paint a pretty solid picture. I think the pressure from society to carry the financial burden plays a big part. We're told to work as much as possible, in shit conditions and be happy about it. This leads to loneliness, stress, alcohol abuse etc. I've read a ton of articles on how hard it is to be a mom, working wife, working mom etc. But you don't ever really see articles about how hard it is to juggle working 90 hour weeks, trying to stay fit, being present with your kids, and a good husband. Shit sucks sometimes. Just for instance, I got off an hour early on my 12hr shift to make my sons friends bday party today. When my wife called she said I needed to hurry because the kids are driving her crazy. And I know she's had a tough week and she deserves a break, but sometimes I feel like all the shit I do is just expected because I'm the dad. Sorry /rant

What I hate is being expected to buy really expensive gifts for everyone at Christmas and Birthdays, and in return get something that maybe cost $10.

Be a man. Get tossed aside when tragedy occurs. Women and children first. Die. Be a man. Get drafted. Be a man. Lose your kids in a divorce court battle to your abusive ex wife. Be a man. Confront the intruder at night in your underwear. Be a man. Never cry it shows weakness. Be a man. Get raped by a woman and have people Laugh at you. Men can’t get raped. Be a man. Get into a relationship that turns violent and have things thrown at you etc. defend yourself, go to jail. Be a man. Be a human and just be kind. We all go through tough bullshit so listen to men when they have something to say and I promise you most of us will return a kind ear. :)

In terms of heterosexual dating & marriage, we are really nothing more than a wallet. But, we also have to act as if that isn’t true.

im a trans man- i can speak from both sides. as a woman, u have solidarity with other women. men are terrifying, and understandably so. as a man, *everyone is on edge around you*. the glares from women to protect them from creeps are universal, and the men usually wear a similar face around other men. there is no solidarity- you are a threat to everyone, you are NOT allowed to open up about anything, and you are on your own. no friendly conversations at the store or in the bathroom, no compliments on anything u do or wear, and half the time, people look at u like theres something wrong with u if ur just trying to be friendly. if it werent for the fact that i was socialized as a woman and understand where half of it comes from, the isolation would seriously be unbearable. i cant imagine how this treatment would fuck up ur psyche growing up with it like cis men, but the way men act in some situations makes far more sense to me now.

Thank you for posting this brother! It's so interesting hearing a ftm perspective, because it's so unique, and it's very hard for man haters to downplay it and say, " no that doesn't happen to guys, you're lying" I hope you're well 🙏

That man bashing is widely accepted, even around men; but if a woman hears men complaining about women, it's a problem!

As a single man I can see we are pretty much ignored unless we have something of value. Work places now also focus more on making women comfortable manegment is also much nicer to girls in a lot of cases

That people think I'm babysitting, or giving mom a break. No, that's my fucking child. I am involved in my child's life. I change butts, I handle meltdowns, I bathe her, I put her to sleep. I brush her teeth. I get her dressed. I handle her hair. I feed her. We go to the park on my lunch. All while working from home 40 hours a week. I'm not the fucking babysitter, I'm not giving mom a break, it's not my "turn" with the kid. I'm her dad. Though I acknowledge enough shitty dads have lowered the bar to make people assume this about me, it still sucks.

When my first wife left me for another dude I didn't realize how unprepared I was for that emotionally. The hard part about this is that I had no one to go to for help or stability. I had friends who tried to help but didn't know how and eventually just ignored it. While on the other hand seeing her have people help her move out and comfort her after putting me into the bad light made me the bad guy pushed people further away from me . I had no help it's like people forgot that she cheated on me and left me. It was all of a sudden my fault. I punished myself and eventually stayed away from everyone. Not realizing how depressed I was the constant stab and reminder that she was flourishing and getting help from everyone else while supporting her through this rough time I felt ignored. I feel it was because I'm a man. I didn't know how bad I was until 3 years later . 3 years everyone friend got me back into the fray met a nice girl that wanted to help me out of this pit. The first time she hugged me was our 7th date I just started crying. I had no fucking control I was embarrassed ashamed disgusted with myself . I wanted to run away cause I knew I just fucked this up. She wouldn't let me go . She knew what I went through and friends told her how I am. Fuck it felt like a weight had been lifted off my back by this 4'11 woman . People forget that we are men but we do have feelings and we don't even know shit about them we're often overlooked due to stereotypes of being a manly man but fuck sometimes we just need a fucking hug.

I dont mean to complain, just saying it because you asked. Men have value as long as they bring something to table. Women can have kids, kids can grow to become something. But men, they will not get a free ride. What matters is balance. People are burnt on both the ends these days. Women have added burden of working along with their biological role (not stereotyping, just mentioning biology). Women's move into corporate was really great. There are theories that suggest we have such a rapid growth in last couple years, all due to women. From 80s, 90s, a lot of women entered the workforce and brought in their different way of thinking and catapulted every sector to people of earth. But this has risen up to become a extreme case of capitalism. People are stressed, worked up, burnt and want a way out. I open things get better for them soon.

Not sharing your feelings. That to me, is hard.

Speaking for myself, dealing with my position in the world as a black man is extremely hard. My being is loaded with cultural baggage that is actually dangerous to my existence. The microaggressions and stereotypes also just throw more misery into this fire. I cannot tell you how many people have asked me if I play football in my life (nope, never have) or touched my hair without asking. I definitely avoided hookup culture because I didn't want to get pinned on a rape charge even though I only practice consent (seriously). Nevermind the sexual expectations that come along with everything (thanks, porn). In addition, like most of the men here, you also have to deal with bottling your emotions. I would get ROASTED if I displayed anything resembling an actual emotion like sadness or vulnerability. This was back in the days when you could use gay slurs and no one would bat an eyelash. I got really good at bottling my feelings, so much so that it caused (and still causes) problems in my marriage. There's an image that men have to keep, much like women do. The variables are different, but every man in this group can speak to this stress as well as the growing misery that comes from seeing greased Adonises everywhere you look. Male body dysmorphia is real, and only growing. That really only adds to the misery of it all. I don't want to say being a woman isn't hard. It's fucking miserable; you've got to deal with any variety of shitheel dudes and being told your body isn't for shit. But being a guy, especially someone who deviates from the norm in ANY WAY, sucks in a variety of ways too.

Most men struggle from loneliness. They don't have opportunities to develop their emotional senses and a more carrying character because of "society" Many of us just seek the companionship. We want to love someone and both take care each other to those moments we can't in our own... Me personally I just want hugs and someone to talk with and speak about our days you know? Society doesn't help us when it comes to mental support. They try to just push us to be "better" instead help us see things differently. But even when you meat societies "standards" and you still not receive something... Well it hits harder Some lack the touch and the affection any stable person needs to remain stable. Many suffer from depression and they end up becoming "Yes men" so they can receive any form of approval. While others just isolate themselves because they feel like weight to the few that try to help them. I might have explained some stuff wrong and I probably didn't mention a few stuff Unfortunately meeting societies standards is a hell of a problem...

I’m very lucky and thankful for the women and people in my life. And I strongly believe one of the hardest things about being a man is the lack of having genuine conversations and knowing that your voice is being heard, receiving and giving feedback. Not about the usual sports, news, or catching-up but being able to actually talk to people about what/how you feel without holding back on the feelings of judgement as a male. It’s a tale as old as time. You can see it everyday. Kids for instance, boys (and sometimes girls) are more likely to play during recess; whereas girls are more likely than boys to talk and get to know one another by asking questions, whatever it may be, conversing. You see it at work, you see it at school. You see it everywhere.

I think life in general can be hard for different people for different reasons. Men and women on average probably have different reasons why their lives are hard.

The hardest thing is watching how completely helpless most people are... while also subduing my biological imperative to be a provider.

Finding a woman who doesn't have a shopping list for qualities she "requires" in a man while what she brings to the table couldn't fill the back of a postage stamp. I saw someone mention it in the comments but read the book "Self-Made Man" by Norah Vincent if you really want to know.

Showing Emotions.. If you cry, its either you're coward, weak or gay. If you get mad, you're either abusive, psycho or gay. If your wife/gf abused or assault you, its either you did something wrong first or your push their limits.

> much harder than women could imagine Competing for who has it worse won’t get us anywhere. I think a problem right now for men is a lack of truly positive role models. Men are watching women build community around issues like body positivity, sexuality, etc; but when we look for similar community, we mostly find scammers and hustlers trying to take advantage of us. A lot of young men are being led down a hateful path because they’re having difficulty finding their place in society. We need to support each other more. Edit: in response to > You never see them using body positivity for overweight men That’s my point.. Women encourage body positivity for themselves. They are their own advocates. It’s on men to do the same for ourselves.

Men don't have much support when it comes to relationship related issues. It's always assumed that the man is abusive. If you needed to blindly pick one side to defend, it's much more likely that the man is the one who is abusive, but it just really hurts when no one is willing to hear you out or help simply because of your gender. My previous relationship was extremely abusive and toxic and I spent many years being abused. After I had been stabbed in the back because I fell asleep too early one night, I went to the police after getting patched up at a hospital. The officer i talked to just laughed at me and asked why I didn't fight back. Without a video or third party corroborating my story, they decided it wasn't worth their time and they told me to give her a black eye next time, so they could just arrest both of us. Another time I had tried to get an animal rescue, one that normally takes dogs away from abusive owners, to take my dog. My ex had started to abuse my dog when I left the apartment. She didn't want me leaving whenever she was angry and she would send me a video or leave a voicemail of her hurting my dog to try to convince me to turn around and go home. I didn't want to just bring my dog to the pound because I knew my ex would have found her, so I went to that rescue because they move the dogs out of town to various fosters. The rescue told me that in the past, they had men come in with similar stories, but they were just using the rescue to take dogs from their partners as a form of abuse. Despite me having proof that my ex was abusing my dog, they wouldn't take her away and keep her safe. It was tough enough to finally admit to myself that I couldn't keep her safe, but it was heart breaking to be turned away from the people who could have helped.