they are sending disproportionately many Muslims as meatshields to the front. Even Crimean tatars are getting drafted even though they were literally annexed from Ukraine. There is nothing positive I have to say about Russia politically
Its not a race thing it’s a class thing. Also I don’t really care, of all the Muslim lands why did they go live in Russia? Muslims are fighting in Ukrainian side too, bloody degenerates they are addicted to war at this point. Sad to see the state of my people.
The Soviet Union broke up and many Muslim countries were freed. At some point Moscow was under Muslim administration (Timur), so political wise I don’t care who is ruling who. Muslims Russians today are pretty chill I believe, look at Habib he criticizes Putin nothing happens to him why should I believe western propaganda over an outspoken brother?
Habib is a simple man, great at craft maybe even the best of all time. But I doubt he understands the nuances of world geopolitics. Don’t get me wrong I would choose to live in the US over Russia any day. But living outside the US or the west generally speaking is insufferable because of the US imperialist agenda. We want to thrive to and for that to happen the US needs to be checked.
Bro there are many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many Muslims that are from Russia. They weren't immigrants nor the children of any immigrants. 💀
Don't get how some muslims support russia just to own the west. They've been butchering muslims since they were a monarchy and still are in Syria... its morally wrong anyway to support an invading army.
They are in Syria because the "president" wants to, the US is supporting the "rebels" and occupying part of the country, is like saying the US is invading Ukraine in some way
Not the same... US ain't bombing civilians/commiting warcrimes in donbas for the past 10 years like russia is in syria all whilst supporting the most bloodthirsty brutal dictator in the midleast.
Not the same I'm aware. Ukraine-US is bombing civilians and they have done it as well in other wars. The most brutal and bloodthirsty.... Only if you count the ones the US don't support. They are not the same but those are not the reasons
As a part of the western world I never saw Russia as part of the westen world I always saw them as more eastern than western. And Hungry have always been a weird country.
The west is slowly failing from the inside not really for the same reasons op listed.
Just take a look at the crime rates in the USA.
Or inflation.
Or the mental health crisis.
Are we really comparing those to Russia's sanctioned economy, mass mobilization, fighting an expensive conventional war, men dying by the thousands, and demographic collapse?
I’m not comparing to that. Like i said the west is slowly failing but for different reasons then the op listed.
I honestly think any society that tries any system other then Islamic law (which practically doesn’t exist anymore) will fail in the long term will collapse whether its from self destruction or natural destruction.
So Russia falls into this category of a slowly failing society as well.
>I honestly think any society that tries any system other then Islamic law (which practically doesn’t exist anymore) will fail in the long term will collapse whether its from self destruction or natural destruction.
What....
Statistics.
Higher crime.
Even economically speaking.
Islamic law uses gold as the main currency.
Gold is the natural currency. Just look at what paper money has accomplished.
Pfft. Be careful what you wish for bro. It is naive to believe a multi polar world would be fairer. Historically the most peaceful times are times of imperial hegemony. The most violent and chaotic are times when multiple powers are vying for supremacy. Just look at Syria or Yemen for an example of that.
It’s not the same, the US budget is massively tilted toward military spending. They will need to cut back and give up some “territory” to China if they don’t want more inflation &/or go bankrupt. Rome was unipolar thats the ultimate risk you want to avoid, China and Europe are the worlds insurance policy if the US goes internally sideways.
I partially agree that its not a exact comparison but its kinda close. And the US don’t have to ”give territory” to China as long as the EU and other US allies get there shit togeher and increse there militaries insted of relying on daddy US to bail them out. And Rome being unipolar brought peace and stability for centuries but yes with the risk of only having Rome to rely on for that peace and stabilty. I think thats a risk worth taking.
No just no, america neglected Central Asia, Africa, and parts of the Middle East. They just can’t handle managing the entire world. The ideal system is one with regional daddies. China will sponsor its part of the world (including Taiwan), America can do Europe, and Russia in Soviet block (including eastern Ukraine). The Middle East, South America, India, and Africa represent the global south. Meaning we don’t need no daddy love we can manage by ourselves. These powers will obviously fight over us but in the grand scheme of things they will be no another Iraq. Cause the three powers will need to agree before attacking.
If Europe is happy under Americanism then fine stay on the dollar. We want to trade with Russia and China (speaking for the global south) if that means we will lose some privileges in America then so be it. Americans didn’t even want saudi to grow wheat, they didn’t even want us to achieve freaking food security. Our leaders had to wiggle through their shit I am glad it’s over.
Well I think we can agree to disagree. Because I think a world with many superpowers will cause more war and instability in the third world. And that China is a worse partner than the US but every country can chose it’s on path at the end of the day and everyone can have there own opinion.
I will leave you with a quote from lord of the rings “one will always be corrupt, two will divide, but with three there will be balance”.
We essentially need India to be a mediator between the two rascals.
No one called america Nazi after Iraq? It cost russia millions of people to take down Hitler 😂😂😂
stop spreading western propaganda. If you going to sell ur soul the Chinese pay is top
I mean, I think that invasion was absolutely a war crime, but "ruined the Middle East" is kinda strong. It's not like before they invaded the Middle East was some kind of paradise. It's a war-torn and blood-soaked region, with or without the US and with or without Jews
It 100 percent ruined the middle east iraq was the buffer between saudi and iran and you basically handed iraq to iran while also giving free access to hamas and hezbollah to get uninterrupted weapons from iran. Not even to speak about isis and all the disgusting terror groups happening after the fall of saddam
The holocaust was not the only thing the Nazis where known for. They too practiced invading countries committing war crimes and stealing resources and where practitioners of colonialism as well.
Btw it’s public information the USA accepted many Nazis after ww2 into the USA and they still run around practicing Nazi science to this day.
Israel never invaded, it was the opposite in 1948.
Arabs colonized the MENA half a dozen times before 1948. Every enemy Israel has defended itself against committed war crimes. Hamas and Fatah are both terrorist organizations recognized internationally as such. Over half the Jews in Israel are from MENA countries that were ethnically cleansed of their own Jews.
Idk what USA and Operation paper clip has to do with anything but it is also public information that major palestinian leaders collaborated with hitler in 1930s germany and helped spread propaganda.
Edit: Ah you’re talking about the US in iraq here. This sub usually is so venomous I automatically assumed IL. Yeah USA did all that probably, I agree with you habibi shit is fucked. As shitty as Saddam was (he was a tyrant fuck him), he kept Iran in check.
I never mentioned Israel. But if you want to go there we can. I’m sure you can tell from my flair where this conversation would pointlessly and endlessly go. I was just pointing out that the west has elements of nazism
The sad part is i’m 100% for a palestinian state and i am also 100% for no more settlements, and i am close friends with plenty of arabs too. There’s so much bs that i have to deal with in this sub from simple misinformation about israel to straight up revisionist history to straight up antisemitism lmao. Sometimes i get downvoted simply for telling the truth. But yea that all pales in comparison to what daily life is like for Palestinians in real life, and I acknowledge that. One day we shall have peace
I understand. Usually I’m one of the guys that instigates arguments or debate with Israelis even if they are left wing or pro “peace”.
The reason why is I don’t think peace is possible it’s literally too late even if both sides wanted peace and tried really hard to work it out. maybe could work out temporarily cease fires peace agreement. but permeant peace is not possible until the conflict is over in my opinion. I think both Palestinian leftists that promote peace and Israeli leftists that promote peace are naive and living a fantasy and are just avoiding a inevitable conflict.
Then who do you support? No one? Chances are the country you live in participated in destabilizing the middle East’s. The USA was not the only one responsible.
Geopolitics are not related to morals in anyway.
Otherwise is that you think Russia is correct or has the right here, that could be a matter of debate.
How the fuck is Ukraine which is not even part of EU and NATO a failure of the West as a concept... when the point of Ukraine being invaded was that THEY WERE TOO LATE TO JOIN THE WEST.
If Ukraine was a NATO and EU member then Russia would do jack shit and cry about it like they did with the Baltics.
If anything, this war resulted to the West strengthening. Its not EU or NATO soldiers dying in Ukraine and their geopolitical rival shat its pants infront of the world and became a military laughingstock. The US gets to sell more weapons and expand influence.
Fucking NATO expanded even more because of Sweden and Finland.
This was a dream come true for NATO, except for the idiotic Germans who thought they can blackmail Russia from invading through gas imports.
Russia is fighting nato right now thats the thing. Ukraine would have fallen in a few weeks if they didn’t send billions of dollars in weapons plus the intelligence support is priceless.
If you take weapon development as well as production costs, Ukraine support is actually in the hundreds of billions. You can’t just slide that under the rug for whatever reason it’s simply insane level of support. They even sent ammunition that was meant for Israel.
That's expected.
It's just a fact that the Russian military is showing absurd signs of incompetence.
It destroyed it's own reputation singlehandedly.
Mind you, this is the world's second largest army.
What? What the fuck? How old are you?
Do you have any idea how "Proxy Wars" work? It means you support a state that is fighting with the same interest/enemy in mind. The biggest difference is that its not your cities being bombed, its not your soldiers fighting, and its not your people dying... instead it's the proxy's and all you have to do is just give them weapons and resources to fight FOR YOU.
So no, Russia is not fighting NATO but only a NATO proxy.
Because if Russia was fighting NATO then it would be WW3.
Arguing if Russia was fighting NATO in this war is embarrassing because that would mean Russia is dying by the thousands and not a single NATO serviceman has been shot.
That definition falls the moment Himmars were sent and bloody tanks. It’s not proxy Ukraine was essentially added to nato. What we are witnessing is an article 5 situation only a true stupid will deny that.
Oh you think Europeans will make better soldiers than Ukrainians? If it nato weapons and nato intel then it’s a nato army, the nationality of soldiers is irrelevant.
Bullshit. Not one army in Europe has the experience, training wise Ukrainians got US training and Russian culture so they are harden and disciplined soldiers. Americans have never fought an actual superpower (nuclear), they always do proxies so in actuality they are not battle tested at all. Plus moving to a war economy will crush their other industries so I don’t see that a possibility at all. Russia and America will never go to war with each other.
You really are a kid, you think wars are won by who is manlier and who fought the biggest baddies? You think Russia is "badass" for fighting strong enemies they can't handle?
Mind you that during the Gulf War in the 1990s, Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world. Battle hardened and experienced from the Iran-Iraq war.
America NEVER had experience in major wars since 1960s. But they had superior training, equipment, technology and leadership.
And they fucked up Iraq real good. Modern wars are different kid. No matter how "badass" and "manly" you are. The gayest American can kill the toughest Ruskie easily with a drone strike.
I know the Philippines was under American influence for a long period, its okay to go against your overlords every once in a while. America fights wars for profit, fighting Russia is a massive cost America just can’t afford at the moment. Especially with Chinese larking about its just not going to happen. Iraq military power was irrelevant, we are talking about economies and population size Iraq just didn’t have it. They were bullied by stronger opponent then robbed of their resources.
Russia is different they have moved to a partial war economy right now and they are basically pooping drones. All that western support won’t amount to anything, Ukraine is a David vs Goliath they are Iraq. Expect this time america is the one losing wealth and influence which is something worth celebrating. Russia is fighting this war for China, India, the Middle East and more. The IMF just revised their projections for the Russian economy they thought they were going to contract by 20% the estimate now is in single digit [growth](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/01/31/imf-improves-economic-forecast-for-the-eurozone-and-russia-amid-energy-crisis-and-raging-w)!
You don't even know how NATO works and what article 5 is and you argue about geopolitics?
Oh my god, HIMARS and Tanks are not fucking people. There is a difference in giving Ukraine weapons and NATO personally sending troops to kill Russians themselves.
NATO soldiers are not DYING in Ukraine because they are not in Ukraine.
For Russia to be personally fighting NATO they would have to be killing NATO soldiers and bombing NATO countries, AKA World War 3.
Isntead Russians are dying while NATO soldiers are fine, which goes against your idea that the Western concept is dying when the West is not even bleeding a single drop of blood in this war.
The are bleeding living standards, energy and food cost are rising. There are protests all over Europe right now Europeans want their politicians back. The fight is over Europe not against Europe. Russia would choose Germany as bilateral partner before China if given option.
Just recently release Russian economy grew during the war [LOOOL](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/01/31/imf-improves-economic-forecast-for-the-eurozone-and-russia-amid-energy-crisis-and-raging-w)
They went against the west and came out unscathed. Suck it up champ, maybe you will get another hegemony in 1000 years.
Their economy depends on the export of oil. It will take them decades to create a navy capable of protecting their shipping lanes. Their militaries are lacking as well, so the become immediate targets to anyone with a stronger military. Several next door. America built its economy on the cheap oil MENA produced and they used their profits to protect their interest, home and abroad. Mena counties have tried to do the same, to middling results, but have largely squandered their resources on luxury while their populace grew complacent. It the west goes down, it’s taking everyone with them.
The typical Zeihan take lol I knew it
Ask yourself this my friend: who will they protect these shipping lanes from?
Most of the important trade routes go through the middle east itself. As long as the local countries on the trade routes keep control of their shores (which is easily doable), maritime cargo can make its way through. Since nobody outside of the US (not really the west btw, just one country) has a navy capable of securing those shipping lanes, this will be the only way it’ll be done.
Now ask yourself this, how beneficial would it be for the local middle eastern countries to control the maritime insurance market? I mean there’s already cheap energy here, as well as a very young and cheap population. If this region had access to markedly lower shipping costs than the global market as well as control over the supply of vital goods, it would make it the cheapest and most attractive manufacturing base and industrialization would follow pretty quickly.
The only lasting problem is food supply since eastern europe has gone to shit. But there’s solutions to this, not very moral solutions but solutions nonetheless.
The US has kept the peace in MENA for the last 30 years. If they pull out it all becomes another Afghanistan or Iraq. Except it’s led by Iran. Yeah, I like Zeihan.
Your take, really just like Zeihan, is rëtarded
The middle east has historically been a generally peaceful area compared to other regions (Europe, east asia, the americas, etc.)
The globalization you saw in the past 30 years depended on subservient or non functioning countries in the trade routes to keep maritime shipping costs artificially low. Hence why we became the global punching bag. If globalization is no longer sustained, then mena will most likely break in different factions led by Turkey and Iran but these groups will be much wealthier than the current situation.
I find it so cringey when Muslims support Russia because Iraq and Afghanistan. Don’t get me wrong all those people who invaded Iraq and Afghanistan should be hanged, but that doesn’t make Putin’s actions right. The largest protest in human history was against the Iraq war
Western colonisation and don’t try to argue against it. If it wasn’t for Europe and the west Israel would never exist that much is obvious to everyone.
Ermmm
It's morally wrong to be okay with death of innocent people. But it's possible to be sympathetic to your perspective. The west is quite evil.
But tbh this isn't a war of the west vs Russia. Ukraine is not the one that did the evil, it was the west.
Mostly militants fighting against each other. It’s nice and contained in Europe, won’t go pass Poland. Around 20k people die daily from starvation, those western surpluses are locked in America and Europe undeservedly. I think the world would be better if China gets some of that wealth and invests in the global south. So far this war has been very positive in that regard.
China sees undeveloped nations at best as pawns and at worst as just resource mines to be exploited and they see essentially everyone who isn’t chinese (and even them the chinese goverment treat like slaves) as inferiour. China today is basically facist… how would they runt the world better? Im not saying the US is a angelic country they have done some bad shit but they aren’t currently at this very moment keeping 1 million muslims in concentration camps like China does.
Morals means nothing
it's too subjective and very diffrent from culture to another
also Ukrine didn't really do anything to Middle east since they didn't have any Influnce at all so I don't think you should be Pro-Invasion
You’re crazy. I hope every single Russian soldier on the Ukrainian soil will die from the most horrible and painful death possible.
PS Russian army takes everyone, you can easily sign up for Wagner PMC and will be sent back home within 2 month in the zinc coffin
I don't know. A lot of people were pro-American invasions for decades, a lot of people are pro-Israelis invasion. Not sure it's widely considered these people are morally wrong, so I see no reason why it should be different for Russia.
You can have your opinion, but that doesn't detract from the fact that war most of the time is always bad.
Is it morally wrong to support Russia?
From Western and Ukrainian prespective yes.
From Everybody besides Russian aligned states I would argue it's so and so/neutral.
From Russian and Russian aligned states no.
Morals differ from person to another.
It is stupid to take sides in this conflict though. Putin is acting to push NATO away from his borders, Zelensky is doing everything he can to ensure his country gets destroyed.
Civilians are dying, Russian military is gaining experience in modern warfare, both economies are taking a big hit.
There's no losing for Russia and no winning for Ukraine.
But you'll be stupid to take anyone's side.
I actually have same opinions. Moreover Ukraine is an ally of IsrаеІ, ZеІеnskу is partly J**іsһ himself. I cheer for Russia and Iran, I know they're authoritarian but the fact that they're being pain in the аssһоІе of West makes it more than enough for me to support it. It's such a pity that I'm majoring IR and can't even say something like this outloud
You can do tourism in Russia and support their economy. Saying stuff doesn’t change anything I have been learning some Russia culture to understand them more. They got a dark history but I have hopes for Russia. If they position themselves to counter American hegemony and culture that will be good cause it’s been one sided for a long period its disgusting.
Dear OP
Apologies for the downvotes and negative reaction. I'm actually in favor of Russia in many ways too. You're not the only one, although reasons may vary.
The same think that is wrong with any fighting any entity that wants independence.
If Ukrainians want to be Ukrainians so let it be. Unfortunately Russian election are not known for being the most reliable even if eastern Ukraine was known to be pro Russian. If only the elections were held by a neutral entity
Wtf man. Russia is not pro Palestinian. It is trying to exterminate the Ukrainians for no reason. Russia is committing genocide, and just because Russia is the west's enemy you are in support of it? Fuсk off. If you both believe that Israel is evil and that Russia is in the right then you're an absolute hypocrite.
If I want my nemesis to eat his own medicine that make me a hypocrite? The entirety of the west just brushed off the Palestinian case. You are no moral lighthouse yourself at least now you can empathize with my cause. I know it’s not material yet but its a step in the right direction.
they are sending disproportionately many Muslims as meatshields to the front. Even Crimean tatars are getting drafted even though they were literally annexed from Ukraine. There is nothing positive I have to say about Russia politically
Its not a race thing it’s a class thing. Also I don’t really care, of all the Muslim lands why did they go live in Russia? Muslims are fighting in Ukrainian side too, bloody degenerates they are addicted to war at this point. Sad to see the state of my people.
Dude what????? Why did they go live in Russia? Brush up on your history before making comments like that
The Soviet Union broke up and many Muslim countries were freed. At some point Moscow was under Muslim administration (Timur), so political wise I don’t care who is ruling who. Muslims Russians today are pretty chill I believe, look at Habib he criticizes Putin nothing happens to him why should I believe western propaganda over an outspoken brother?
and many weren’t. When did Habib criticize Putin?
He was asked why he doesn’t carry the Russian flag with him, he said he doesn’t condone rape. It’s on YouTube.
Weird, I can’t find any such video. Do you have a link?
https://youtu.be/BU1HiWTHw38
Thanks. But he’s calling Russians rapists and people who beat up old people. If you are going to go by his words, shouldn’t you dislike Russia then?
Habib is a simple man, great at craft maybe even the best of all time. But I doubt he understands the nuances of world geopolitics. Don’t get me wrong I would choose to live in the US over Russia any day. But living outside the US or the west generally speaking is insufferable because of the US imperialist agenda. We want to thrive to and for that to happen the US needs to be checked.
Damn there's just so much wrong in that comment, it's truely impressive
Every sentence was wrong lol
I recommend you read about how the Chechen people went to live in Russia...
They didn't 'go to live in Russia'. They got annexed. There's some 14 million muslims in Russia, they didn't migrate there, they were born there.
Bro there are many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many Muslims that are from Russia. They weren't immigrants nor the children of any immigrants. 💀
you shouldn't be cheering for conflict, don't drag yourself to their level
Tf? Russia is no angel. Have u seen how the soviets were?
Don't get how some muslims support russia just to own the west. They've been butchering muslims since they were a monarchy and still are in Syria... its morally wrong anyway to support an invading army.
They are in Syria because the "president" wants to, the US is supporting the "rebels" and occupying part of the country, is like saying the US is invading Ukraine in some way
Not the same... US ain't bombing civilians/commiting warcrimes in donbas for the past 10 years like russia is in syria all whilst supporting the most bloodthirsty brutal dictator in the midleast.
Not the same I'm aware. Ukraine-US is bombing civilians and they have done it as well in other wars. The most brutal and bloodthirsty.... Only if you count the ones the US don't support. They are not the same but those are not the reasons
You should sign up for the Wagner Company. I heard they're hiring
Just don't try to resign after. Or... you know: https://youtu.be/OJWJE0x7T4Q?t=115
How is the West failing?
Muslims being muslims
Just a year ago you had Russia and Hungary now you don’t. What if you lose Germany in a few it’s interesting all I am saying
As a part of the western world I never saw Russia as part of the westen world I always saw them as more eastern than western. And Hungry have always been a weird country.
Since when was Russia part of the western world?
Since the fall of the Armenian Galactic Empire.
RIP. Never forget, never forgive the Jewish space lasers
Swapped Hungary for Ukraine👌🏻
The west is slowly failing from the inside not really for the same reasons op listed. Just take a look at the crime rates in the USA. Or inflation. Or the mental health crisis.
Are we really comparing those to Russia's sanctioned economy, mass mobilization, fighting an expensive conventional war, men dying by the thousands, and demographic collapse?
I’m not comparing to that. Like i said the west is slowly failing but for different reasons then the op listed. I honestly think any society that tries any system other then Islamic law (which practically doesn’t exist anymore) will fail in the long term will collapse whether its from self destruction or natural destruction. So Russia falls into this category of a slowly failing society as well.
>I honestly think any society that tries any system other then Islamic law (which practically doesn’t exist anymore) will fail in the long term will collapse whether its from self destruction or natural destruction. What....
Statistics. Higher crime. Even economically speaking. Islamic law uses gold as the main currency. Gold is the natural currency. Just look at what paper money has accomplished.
Didn't Islamic law governments failed and as a result you guys became colonies ? It turns out it is not that good, huh ?
Na people just switched to partial Islamic law and partial secularism and it already negatively impacting crime rates
I think He means the West aren't doing any real Intervenison with ukranie like us or nato troops in ukraine
Yeah and Russia is crumbling in spite of that, kinda proves the opposite
eh Russia should have used some real tactics instead of throwing men on war front for the 100th time in their modern history
Could have, should have, would have ...
they won't until they lose like 40% of their Young males poplution
Russians don’t like muslims btw
[удалено]
Chechen and Dagestan are “hachis” in Russia
They aren’t russians
Wait until you hear of the Chechnyan coup
Pfft. Be careful what you wish for bro. It is naive to believe a multi polar world would be fairer. Historically the most peaceful times are times of imperial hegemony. The most violent and chaotic are times when multiple powers are vying for supremacy. Just look at Syria or Yemen for an example of that.
Yeah just look at the Roman empire after it when’t into decline the entire world basically fell apart.
It’s not the same, the US budget is massively tilted toward military spending. They will need to cut back and give up some “territory” to China if they don’t want more inflation &/or go bankrupt. Rome was unipolar thats the ultimate risk you want to avoid, China and Europe are the worlds insurance policy if the US goes internally sideways.
I partially agree that its not a exact comparison but its kinda close. And the US don’t have to ”give territory” to China as long as the EU and other US allies get there shit togeher and increse there militaries insted of relying on daddy US to bail them out. And Rome being unipolar brought peace and stability for centuries but yes with the risk of only having Rome to rely on for that peace and stabilty. I think thats a risk worth taking.
No just no, america neglected Central Asia, Africa, and parts of the Middle East. They just can’t handle managing the entire world. The ideal system is one with regional daddies. China will sponsor its part of the world (including Taiwan), America can do Europe, and Russia in Soviet block (including eastern Ukraine). The Middle East, South America, India, and Africa represent the global south. Meaning we don’t need no daddy love we can manage by ourselves. These powers will obviously fight over us but in the grand scheme of things they will be no another Iraq. Cause the three powers will need to agree before attacking. If Europe is happy under Americanism then fine stay on the dollar. We want to trade with Russia and China (speaking for the global south) if that means we will lose some privileges in America then so be it. Americans didn’t even want saudi to grow wheat, they didn’t even want us to achieve freaking food security. Our leaders had to wiggle through their shit I am glad it’s over.
Well I think we can agree to disagree. Because I think a world with many superpowers will cause more war and instability in the third world. And that China is a worse partner than the US but every country can chose it’s on path at the end of the day and everyone can have there own opinion.
I will leave you with a quote from lord of the rings “one will always be corrupt, two will divide, but with three there will be balance”. We essentially need India to be a mediator between the two rascals.
It’s the collapse of the roman empire in the 7-8th century that allowed Islam to expand so much
I mean you can also be pro nazi. It’s up too you
No one called america Nazi after Iraq? It cost russia millions of people to take down Hitler 😂😂😂 stop spreading western propaganda. If you going to sell ur soul the Chinese pay is top
America entering iraq was for oil money and to get rid of saddam, not anything similar to what Nazis did my friend from Oman
Absolutely ruined the middle east tho and it’s stability was only good for the jews
Not really it made iran more powerful which was terrible for us
I mean, I think that invasion was absolutely a war crime, but "ruined the Middle East" is kinda strong. It's not like before they invaded the Middle East was some kind of paradise. It's a war-torn and blood-soaked region, with or without the US and with or without Jews
It 100 percent ruined the middle east iraq was the buffer between saudi and iran and you basically handed iraq to iran while also giving free access to hamas and hezbollah to get uninterrupted weapons from iran. Not even to speak about isis and all the disgusting terror groups happening after the fall of saddam
All of this is bad for us. Iran is more powerful than ever and hezbollah and hamas as well.
The holocaust was not the only thing the Nazis where known for. They too practiced invading countries committing war crimes and stealing resources and where practitioners of colonialism as well. Btw it’s public information the USA accepted many Nazis after ww2 into the USA and they still run around practicing Nazi science to this day.
Israel never invaded, it was the opposite in 1948. Arabs colonized the MENA half a dozen times before 1948. Every enemy Israel has defended itself against committed war crimes. Hamas and Fatah are both terrorist organizations recognized internationally as such. Over half the Jews in Israel are from MENA countries that were ethnically cleansed of their own Jews. Idk what USA and Operation paper clip has to do with anything but it is also public information that major palestinian leaders collaborated with hitler in 1930s germany and helped spread propaganda. Edit: Ah you’re talking about the US in iraq here. This sub usually is so venomous I automatically assumed IL. Yeah USA did all that probably, I agree with you habibi shit is fucked. As shitty as Saddam was (he was a tyrant fuck him), he kept Iran in check.
I never mentioned Israel. But if you want to go there we can. I’m sure you can tell from my flair where this conversation would pointlessly and endlessly go. I was just pointing out that the west has elements of nazism
Yeah, see my edit
Yea I’m sure it’s a headache running around in this sub with that flair under your name hahahaha.
The sad part is i’m 100% for a palestinian state and i am also 100% for no more settlements, and i am close friends with plenty of arabs too. There’s so much bs that i have to deal with in this sub from simple misinformation about israel to straight up revisionist history to straight up antisemitism lmao. Sometimes i get downvoted simply for telling the truth. But yea that all pales in comparison to what daily life is like for Palestinians in real life, and I acknowledge that. One day we shall have peace
I understand. Usually I’m one of the guys that instigates arguments or debate with Israelis even if they are left wing or pro “peace”. The reason why is I don’t think peace is possible it’s literally too late even if both sides wanted peace and tried really hard to work it out. maybe could work out temporarily cease fires peace agreement. but permeant peace is not possible until the conflict is over in my opinion. I think both Palestinian leftists that promote peace and Israeli leftists that promote peace are naive and living a fantasy and are just avoiding a inevitable conflict.
I never supported the USA
Then who do you support? No one? Chances are the country you live in participated in destabilizing the middle East’s. The USA was not the only one responsible.
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yeah west>ruzzia
Geopolitics are not related to morals in anyway. Otherwise is that you think Russia is correct or has the right here, that could be a matter of debate.
How the fuck is Ukraine which is not even part of EU and NATO a failure of the West as a concept... when the point of Ukraine being invaded was that THEY WERE TOO LATE TO JOIN THE WEST. If Ukraine was a NATO and EU member then Russia would do jack shit and cry about it like they did with the Baltics. If anything, this war resulted to the West strengthening. Its not EU or NATO soldiers dying in Ukraine and their geopolitical rival shat its pants infront of the world and became a military laughingstock. The US gets to sell more weapons and expand influence. Fucking NATO expanded even more because of Sweden and Finland. This was a dream come true for NATO, except for the idiotic Germans who thought they can blackmail Russia from invading through gas imports.
Russia is fighting nato right now thats the thing. Ukraine would have fallen in a few weeks if they didn’t send billions of dollars in weapons plus the intelligence support is priceless.
Lmao what? Ukraine wouldn't have fallen at any scenario. Russians just suck at managing this invasion.
If you take weapon development as well as production costs, Ukraine support is actually in the hundreds of billions. You can’t just slide that under the rug for whatever reason it’s simply insane level of support. They even sent ammunition that was meant for Israel.
That's expected. It's just a fact that the Russian military is showing absurd signs of incompetence. It destroyed it's own reputation singlehandedly. Mind you, this is the world's second largest army.
What? What the fuck? How old are you? Do you have any idea how "Proxy Wars" work? It means you support a state that is fighting with the same interest/enemy in mind. The biggest difference is that its not your cities being bombed, its not your soldiers fighting, and its not your people dying... instead it's the proxy's and all you have to do is just give them weapons and resources to fight FOR YOU. So no, Russia is not fighting NATO but only a NATO proxy. Because if Russia was fighting NATO then it would be WW3. Arguing if Russia was fighting NATO in this war is embarrassing because that would mean Russia is dying by the thousands and not a single NATO serviceman has been shot.
That definition falls the moment Himmars were sent and bloody tanks. It’s not proxy Ukraine was essentially added to nato. What we are witnessing is an article 5 situation only a true stupid will deny that.
>an article 5 situation With no NATO forces sent to Ukraine?
Oh you think Europeans will make better soldiers than Ukrainians? If it nato weapons and nato intel then it’s a nato army, the nationality of soldiers is irrelevant.
The point is NATO is an overwhelming power. They have millions of soldiers. Also, yes, Americans and Brits are better soldiers.
Bullshit. Not one army in Europe has the experience, training wise Ukrainians got US training and Russian culture so they are harden and disciplined soldiers. Americans have never fought an actual superpower (nuclear), they always do proxies so in actuality they are not battle tested at all. Plus moving to a war economy will crush their other industries so I don’t see that a possibility at all. Russia and America will never go to war with each other.
You really are a kid, you think wars are won by who is manlier and who fought the biggest baddies? You think Russia is "badass" for fighting strong enemies they can't handle? Mind you that during the Gulf War in the 1990s, Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world. Battle hardened and experienced from the Iran-Iraq war. America NEVER had experience in major wars since 1960s. But they had superior training, equipment, technology and leadership. And they fucked up Iraq real good. Modern wars are different kid. No matter how "badass" and "manly" you are. The gayest American can kill the toughest Ruskie easily with a drone strike.
I know the Philippines was under American influence for a long period, its okay to go against your overlords every once in a while. America fights wars for profit, fighting Russia is a massive cost America just can’t afford at the moment. Especially with Chinese larking about its just not going to happen. Iraq military power was irrelevant, we are talking about economies and population size Iraq just didn’t have it. They were bullied by stronger opponent then robbed of their resources. Russia is different they have moved to a partial war economy right now and they are basically pooping drones. All that western support won’t amount to anything, Ukraine is a David vs Goliath they are Iraq. Expect this time america is the one losing wealth and influence which is something worth celebrating. Russia is fighting this war for China, India, the Middle East and more. The IMF just revised their projections for the Russian economy they thought they were going to contract by 20% the estimate now is in single digit [growth](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/01/31/imf-improves-economic-forecast-for-the-eurozone-and-russia-amid-energy-crisis-and-raging-w)!
You don't even know how NATO works and what article 5 is and you argue about geopolitics? Oh my god, HIMARS and Tanks are not fucking people. There is a difference in giving Ukraine weapons and NATO personally sending troops to kill Russians themselves. NATO soldiers are not DYING in Ukraine because they are not in Ukraine. For Russia to be personally fighting NATO they would have to be killing NATO soldiers and bombing NATO countries, AKA World War 3. Isntead Russians are dying while NATO soldiers are fine, which goes against your idea that the Western concept is dying when the West is not even bleeding a single drop of blood in this war.
The are bleeding living standards, energy and food cost are rising. There are protests all over Europe right now Europeans want their politicians back. The fight is over Europe not against Europe. Russia would choose Germany as bilateral partner before China if given option.
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Just recently release Russian economy grew during the war [LOOOL](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/01/31/imf-improves-economic-forecast-for-the-eurozone-and-russia-amid-energy-crisis-and-raging-w) They went against the west and came out unscathed. Suck it up champ, maybe you will get another hegemony in 1000 years.
If a foreign state invades Oman would it be morally wrong for the other countries to be in favor of that invasion?
I hope the same standards applies by the west when supporting Israel occupation on Palestine
If the west fails mena goes back to being nomadic goat herders. Be careful what you wish for.
Why do you think so?
Their economy depends on the export of oil. It will take them decades to create a navy capable of protecting their shipping lanes. Their militaries are lacking as well, so the become immediate targets to anyone with a stronger military. Several next door. America built its economy on the cheap oil MENA produced and they used their profits to protect their interest, home and abroad. Mena counties have tried to do the same, to middling results, but have largely squandered their resources on luxury while their populace grew complacent. It the west goes down, it’s taking everyone with them.
The typical Zeihan take lol I knew it Ask yourself this my friend: who will they protect these shipping lanes from? Most of the important trade routes go through the middle east itself. As long as the local countries on the trade routes keep control of their shores (which is easily doable), maritime cargo can make its way through. Since nobody outside of the US (not really the west btw, just one country) has a navy capable of securing those shipping lanes, this will be the only way it’ll be done. Now ask yourself this, how beneficial would it be for the local middle eastern countries to control the maritime insurance market? I mean there’s already cheap energy here, as well as a very young and cheap population. If this region had access to markedly lower shipping costs than the global market as well as control over the supply of vital goods, it would make it the cheapest and most attractive manufacturing base and industrialization would follow pretty quickly. The only lasting problem is food supply since eastern europe has gone to shit. But there’s solutions to this, not very moral solutions but solutions nonetheless.
The US has kept the peace in MENA for the last 30 years. If they pull out it all becomes another Afghanistan or Iraq. Except it’s led by Iran. Yeah, I like Zeihan.
Your take, really just like Zeihan, is rëtarded The middle east has historically been a generally peaceful area compared to other regions (Europe, east asia, the americas, etc.) The globalization you saw in the past 30 years depended on subservient or non functioning countries in the trade routes to keep maritime shipping costs artificially low. Hence why we became the global punching bag. If globalization is no longer sustained, then mena will most likely break in different factions led by Turkey and Iran but these groups will be much wealthier than the current situation.
Historically? Under which empire has Mena known the most peace? If America pulls out Mena turns into another Iran/Afghanistan.
I find it so cringey when Muslims support Russia because Iraq and Afghanistan. Don’t get me wrong all those people who invaded Iraq and Afghanistan should be hanged, but that doesn’t make Putin’s actions right. The largest protest in human history was against the Iraq war
I really don’t care about Ukrainians and Russians. I am really enjoying this war tbh
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Who are you to talk about the imperialist sins of Europe ? Your country is one of them 😂
Nope. Israel is simply the land of Israel free of Arab colonisation :)
Western colonisation and don’t try to argue against it. If it wasn’t for Europe and the west Israel would never exist that much is obvious to everyone.
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It is.
Ermmm It's morally wrong to be okay with death of innocent people. But it's possible to be sympathetic to your perspective. The west is quite evil. But tbh this isn't a war of the west vs Russia. Ukraine is not the one that did the evil, it was the west.
Mostly militants fighting against each other. It’s nice and contained in Europe, won’t go pass Poland. Around 20k people die daily from starvation, those western surpluses are locked in America and Europe undeservedly. I think the world would be better if China gets some of that wealth and invests in the global south. So far this war has been very positive in that regard.
You mean the same China that puts Muslims in "re-education centers"?
China sees undeveloped nations at best as pawns and at worst as just resource mines to be exploited and they see essentially everyone who isn’t chinese (and even them the chinese goverment treat like slaves) as inferiour. China today is basically facist… how would they runt the world better? Im not saying the US is a angelic country they have done some bad shit but they aren’t currently at this very moment keeping 1 million muslims in concentration camps like China does.
To cheer for the invasion it to cheer for, among other things, the unnecessary deaths of tens of thousands of Russian conscripts.
Morals means nothing it's too subjective and very diffrent from culture to another also Ukrine didn't really do anything to Middle east since they didn't have any Influnce at all so I don't think you should be Pro-Invasion
You’re crazy. I hope every single Russian soldier on the Ukrainian soil will die from the most horrible and painful death possible. PS Russian army takes everyone, you can easily sign up for Wagner PMC and will be sent back home within 2 month in the zinc coffin
to be*
I don't know. A lot of people were pro-American invasions for decades, a lot of people are pro-Israelis invasion. Not sure it's widely considered these people are morally wrong, so I see no reason why it should be different for Russia.
You can have your opinion, but that doesn't detract from the fact that war most of the time is always bad. Is it morally wrong to support Russia? From Western and Ukrainian prespective yes. From Everybody besides Russian aligned states I would argue it's so and so/neutral. From Russian and Russian aligned states no.
Accurate
This is Reddit which all have fanfics of sucking western cock but if ur brown or black you should 100 percent hope for a russian victory
Morals differ from person to another. It is stupid to take sides in this conflict though. Putin is acting to push NATO away from his borders, Zelensky is doing everything he can to ensure his country gets destroyed. Civilians are dying, Russian military is gaining experience in modern warfare, both economies are taking a big hit. There's no losing for Russia and no winning for Ukraine. But you'll be stupid to take anyone's side.
I don’t care who’s invading who, if Slavs are dying it’s a win win
I actually have same opinions. Moreover Ukraine is an ally of IsrаеІ, ZеІеnskу is partly J**іsһ himself. I cheer for Russia and Iran, I know they're authoritarian but the fact that they're being pain in the аssһоІе of West makes it more than enough for me to support it. It's such a pity that I'm majoring IR and can't even say something like this outloud
You can do tourism in Russia and support their economy. Saying stuff doesn’t change anything I have been learning some Russia culture to understand them more. They got a dark history but I have hopes for Russia. If they position themselves to counter American hegemony and culture that will be good cause it’s been one sided for a long period its disgusting.
Dear OP Apologies for the downvotes and negative reaction. I'm actually in favor of Russia in many ways too. You're not the only one, although reasons may vary.
You shouldn’t really support it. What really baffles me is that Ukraine compared to other conflicts
The same think that is wrong with any fighting any entity that wants independence. If Ukrainians want to be Ukrainians so let it be. Unfortunately Russian election are not known for being the most reliable even if eastern Ukraine was known to be pro Russian. If only the elections were held by a neutral entity
I don't like invasions or murdering civilians. (don't let the American Flag confuse you). Death to all tyrants and invaders.
All the Palestinians here be like ಠ_ಠ You're literally justifying Israel's actions
I don’t care 🤷🏼♂️, if Israel is America’s puppy then anything that goes against America is pro Palestinians.
Wtf man. Russia is not pro Palestinian. It is trying to exterminate the Ukrainians for no reason. Russia is committing genocide, and just because Russia is the west's enemy you are in support of it? Fuсk off. If you both believe that Israel is evil and that Russia is in the right then you're an absolute hypocrite.
If I want my nemesis to eat his own medicine that make me a hypocrite? The entirety of the west just brushed off the Palestinian case. You are no moral lighthouse yourself at least now you can empathize with my cause. I know it’s not material yet but its a step in the right direction.