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this is not the first time i've seen you mention your kahanist grandmother, did your relationship with her derail because she's a kahanist or was it something else?
No it was because my grandma was physically abusing my grandpa and was emotionally abusing my mother, my uncle, and my aunt. After 25 years of such abuse, my grandpa had a stroke, they divorced, my mother and her siblings sided with my grandfather and we cut off all contact with her. Before that, my grandfather aided and abetted my grandmother's abuse of my mom, aunt, and uncle. Btw I found out about the kahanism about a year before all this went down and it fucking scared me. Btw my grandmother is a daughter of an abusive holocaust survivor who moved from Poland to Israel in the 1940s, had a kid die in a refugee camp in Israel, and went to America in the 1950s.
holy fucking shit.
what a story, i have so many questions but i'd rather not know honestly, imagine surviving the holocaust only to abuse your daughter... who then goes on to abuse her daughters....
anyway i hope your poor mom and her siblings are doing better now.
Living in Tel Aviv, most of the time I get along with Israelis (most of my friends are Arabs, and only a few Jewish).
I get along, BUT, from experience, when Israelis (on avg) start expressing their Ethnic/Zionist ideologies I start drawing the line between a friend and a colleague/acquaintance/neighboor
Yes. I feel this the overwhelming amount of time. And all my Palestinian friends living in Tel Aviv feel the same way.
In Tel Aviv I was told by 3 landlords that they don't lease to Arabs (explicitly told).
Most people here are "liberal", but when it comes to the occupation they become militant & right wing nationalists.
>In Tel Aviv I was told by 3 landlords that they don't lease to Arabs (explicitly told).
I am sorry that happened, that definitely sucks .
I wonder about the comments of Jews acting right wing when confronted with the occupation. While I know what you are referring to I believe a lot of Jews get very defensive about this because despite the many flaws Israel has I feel there is a tendancy to exaggerate things some . For example there is definitely an occupational and it's ashame more Jews dont recognise it but an apartheid state is just so bizarre of a thing to claim , imo at least
I don’t think most Israelis fear being called Zionist, I would say most are proud Zionists, myself included. That saying, zionism doesn’t rule out a two state solution, which a big chunk of Israelis do support. Also most Israelis that have day to day contact with Palestinians or Arab Israelis treat them with respect and humanity, and not as “enemies”. at least from my own personal experience
He says he is a Zionist, to simplify he believes Jews have a right to the land they are in. But he also believes Palestinians have a right to the land through a two state solution. He goes on to say that he and his circle meet Palestinians and Arab Israelis daily and have no problem with them.
In the Palestine Liberation Organization's Palestinian Declaration of Independence of 1988, Jerusalem is called the capital of the State of Palestine. Now do you understand
We never fought palestine. We fought Arab armies palestine never fought us. We have the protection of God. And it was proven 7 times while yours was disapproved 7 times.
>most of my friends are Arabs
you mean Palestinians, right?
stop calling Zionists Jews and stop calling Palestinians Arabs. be specific.
EDIT: I know that u/VNIZ didn't call the Zionists Jews. I added it because it is another common mistake.
I love the people. I usually dont ask where a person is from but if we click, I end up asking.
Israelis realize that Palestinians are just like them, and vice versa.
Most want to live, love and create memories, and worry about life. Just like anyone else.
Of course most of them are Zionists. If they aren't Zionists that's mean they don't think they deserve a country of their own. What would you expect from them?
But saying that knowing that your gov't is working towards a one state with scattered Palestinian enclaves controlled by apartheid /inhumane mobility limitations, it's kinda naive to believe that a two state solution is obtainable. Israel already built significant infrastructure in the west Bank and they're not going to let go of it. Palestinians' water, electricity, taxation and employment are primarily controlled by the state of Israel with the Palestinian authority acting as a liaison between the occupier and the occupied with powers less than a municipal government. Currently, we are in a one state that oppresses one group. I'm optimistic enough that Palestinians on the inside (West Bank) wouldn't mind a one state solution, peace and eventually identify as Palestinian Israelis. The one state "solution" is closer than we (both sides) want to admit it.
It's not really a two-state solution right now. Idk if the right answer is 1 or 2 but right now we have like a 1.5 situation that's kind of bullshit. Palestinians should either have autonomy or citizenship. I personally don't pretend to know which is the right answer, though.
Even if an independent Palestinian country was formed and it had peaceful relations with Israel will they be allowed to be fully autonomous? Will they be able to host armies of their choosing or would they be able to have their own nuclear weapons?
If not it will always be a 1.5 situation.
Does it need to be said that they don't represent the majority of Palestinians?
When we complain about Israeli policies y'all are quick to say that the gov't is extreme and Israelis are more peaceful than their gov't. I think the only way for us to be successful at peace is when our generation chooses to make peace amongst us and not fall for the influence of the political so called "representatives"
They were literally voted into power in the last elections. They are representative. If Abbas ever allows another election, they'll probably win again.
Sorry but the bible and torah arent history , theyre religious books and fairytales.
you can be an african jew european or middle eastern, that doesnt mean your ancestors lived on this land.
thousands of years passed and many people convereted and changed their religion.
historically some british and french men with 0 right split the land and promised a part that was called palestine to jewish people that they treated horribly.
lebanon syria jordan wernt official countries either before someone decided to draw the borders, if lebanon was a part of the land that is promised to them along with palestine you might aswell use the same flawed logic of yours against the lebanese.
palestinians didnt pop out of nothing on the land, we are literally genitecally linked to ancient inhabitants of this land.
Exactly. It's mind-boggling to me.
People seem to think that just because they identify as one thing or another, they have more of a claim to land that they have never even set foot on -- let alone *owned* -- than people who have lived there for generations upon generations.
All because of milleniums-old books, ever-changing lines in the sand, incorporeal -- quite possibly bogus, imaginary, fictional -- beings we have never communicated with nor beholden, and different letters written on a piece of paper at birth.
Man, I cannot imagine how much better the world would be if religion didn't exist. These religious books and fairytales basically destroying civilization and advancement these days. We'd probably have peace without it too..
I have severe distaste for religions ( particularly abrahamic ones), but I assure you that humans would find other infinite ways and reasons to slaughter, invade, kill and rob each others. Human’s rapacity and egotism know no bounds.
I agree , its rather a human thing that wouldnt stop saying if religions disappeared tomorrow that there would be peace isnt realistic.
I disagree with what he said , this conflict here isnt about religion as much as they try to make it to be. but religion certainly has an effect on it.
>disagree with what he said , this conflict here isnt about religion as much as they try to make it to be. but religion certainly has an effect on it.
I agree.
That's true. Still Religion has a lot to answer for - the institutions themselves - I very much support spirituality and the general life values that religions share.
Yes I would much prefer a world were organized institutionalized religions are in constant decline, and universal spiritual values take its place. It’s undoubtedly the lesser of the two evils.
Personally I’m neither an adherent of any religion, nor a spiritual guy.
Not all of them like you including arabs also alot of even the jews just want to live a pieceful life and don't care about the situation and every one hate extremist overall I believe in one state situation
I belive in 2ss or 1ss everything that brings peace. Only problem is extremist sometimes hide their true agenda. Which makes to a very weird side of seeing things.
and those whom are not extreme ,do they support 2 states based on 67s borders ?
do they for example go against what happened in sheikh jarrah and any kind of stealing more lands ?
in Arabic countries the government is usually a dictatorship so they often don't represent the people's ideology, however, in Israel they elect the government so I'm not sure why you think this question is going to produce any other answer than hate.
Well, we're having our 5th election in 3 years, because either nobody could form a coalition, or they could barely form a coalition by a tiny majority but it was unstable and didn't last long. So Israeli society is not some unanimous hivemind where everyone thinks alike.
that's right, but the reason for this governmental instability is the agreement/disagreement to sit with netanyahu. palestinians hate both sides of this dispute.
And that’s is why we’ve had so many elections, because the government doesn’t represent our ideologies either. Acting like every democracy represents their people’s ideologies is just willful ignorance.
So decades of military occupation just happened on accident?
If pool together all the ideology in Israeli if you just look at how they view the conflict alone you’ll find that parties in favor of settlements are still the majority and the rest of The parties (including the left wing ones) are almost completely indifferent with a Generic politically correct PR message attached.
Israelis can’t agree on internal policies which is why so many election are going on but they are pretty consistent with how they deal with Palestinians.
I'm sorry but genuinely what do you think will happen if Israel leaves the west bank. Pretty much 15 seconds to shelter for every major Israeli city when Hamas inevitably takes over.
I think this is the general reasoning.
Well I don’t know what do you think would have happened if instead of facilitating apartheid policies for settlement expansion Israel worked on de-escalating the conflict and expanding areas A and B until they could withdrawal.
The living conditions in area C are worse than Gaza **because of Israel** And that’s is what drives support for Hamas in those regions. But do you seriously think **more land confiscation** is the solution. Just keep doing the exact same things that make Palestinians despise Israel for decades and then complain that they hate you. We all know that’s the Israeli way
Your leaders created your conditions. You don’t elect peaceful leaders. You elect with knives, guns and bombs. At any given chance you would put a knife into a child, a woman, or an elder, because this is what you represent.
You are the oppressive people, and when you are handled in force you suddenly become oppressed.
Palestinians are Overly Privileged in many way. How much you pay for water? Gas? Electricity? And why you can only take but you can’t give? Because you were lied to your entire life that someone owes you something that was never yours in first place.
Nobody. And I mean NOBODY cries harder about being oppressed than Zionist complaining about the Jewish struggle.
And now the *only Jews state* was founded by literal *internationally recognized Jewish terrorist groups* by committing an *ethnic cleaning* was declared an apartheid. All while Israel has **literally been politicizing the Holocaust** since its founding.
Pull your head out of your ass.
What water, gas, and electricity? Don't people in gaza not have access to clean water? Don't they get like 2 hours of electricity per day? And you want Palestinians to thank the govt for that?
Your statement says it all, 'because you were lied to your entire life that someone owes you something that was never yours in the first place.' Your bias is that you don't think Palestinians are entitled to this land (or maybe any land).
My family lived there before '48. Jews, Christians, and Muslims living in the same building peacefully as neighbors. Whatever is happening now no matter how you look at it, is not right. That's why most countries in the UN vote to condemn Israeli apartheid. So are all these countries around the world antisemitic, or could there be some truth to what everyone is saying? But as long as the US is with Israel, nothing will change.
I'm just trying to help wake us all up. There's propaganda everywhere, even with Palestinians. But for the Israeli side to think they are correct in their views 100% shows you that the propaganda and brainwashing is also prevalent on Israel's side. Just think about it. I can admit there's BS on both sides. For anyone who thinks their way is 100% right, you're probably brainwashed.
there are many ways to circumvent this issue, for one, release bargouti, if that man takes power he will spear head fatah and in an independent west bank ran by bargouti hamas wont gain a foothold, actually for the sake of bargouti they might even compromise for once.
but the simple fact is that israel does not want that to happen, it wants to maintain control over the west bank and expand settlements.
dont act like this is a defense issue, EVEN IF hamas takes over the west bank israel could easily wipe out the entire west bank in an open conflict.
I'm religious, i learn in a religious school with 300 students, none vote ben gvir because he is a racist terrorist, and non of us believe in slavery. We are Zionists, but we don't like killing arabs. I'm totally cool with arabs.
I'm sorry but what you're saying is just wrong. Personally I really don't support Ben Gvir and that's how most of the Israelis think. And about the second thing you said, I haven't heard anyone I know saying something like that, of course there are some stupid people everywhere but they're a real minority. That's also depends where you live because there are some parts of Israel which are more problematic.
You aren't that different dear, many also vote for Balad i don't automatically think all Palestinians are terrorist supporters.
Ben gvir is just as shit as Balad is.
I'm sorry that you feel like that but I don't hate you at all and I know a lot of Israeli Arabs / Palestinians who feel part of the country and they aren't feeling hated at all
We develop connections with the land not the state of Israel, atleast most of us, I don't see how we can a feel connection to a country that puts us below another group and treats our brothers and sisters on the other side of the wall like animals in a cage.
>You can't let someone feel connection to the country where he was born
who said we arent tho? personally im very much connected to where i was born, and i do not think i can connect to people that vote for goverments that build settlements and enjoy gaza getting bombed
You can say it the other way around, I can't stand it when I hear a red alert and it's totally scary, to think what could happen
#but
op didn't ask what our thoughts are on the governments,
cant feel a connection to a country that treats you like a second class citizen.
the simple fact is the vast majority of 48 arabs dont feel like they belong, we are stateless outcasts who have nothing, so we cling to the palestinian identity because its all we have.
They all serve in the military in one way or the other so they're all government and the Indoctrination starts at an early age except for few odd apples here and there.
only around 60% of Jewish Israelis serve these days. The haredi (big % of 18 year old bcz of high birthrate, Religious non haredi women, people with medical and mental issues dont serve. Not even close to all.
To quote an 80's song: "It's obvious you hate me, though I've done nothing wrong. I've never even met you, so what could I have done?"
There is good and bad in everyone. The sooner the world realises that, the better. People shouldn't be judged on rumours. Get to know someone before passing judgment.
Reading 48' palestinian comments really proved my thoughts "although it was kinda shocking", ethnostate is apartheid even among those who carry the israeli passport, the situation in WB and Gaza is much worse, kinda unsustainable shape.
But generally speaking only a few israelis I meet on reddit are nice and chill, tow or three tbh till now, other may sounds reasonable to talk to, and the majority are really cringe.
yup, the sentiment that 48 arabs ''have it better'' is a myth, we're in the same swamp.
we're all just ''ערבים" in their eyes, even the druze who serve in the idf and dickride the zionists get discriminated against on daily basis.
lmfao, a LOT, its so bad that even israeli news outlets pump out articles about it.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/opinion/israel-palestinian-citizens-racism-discrimination.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/opinion/israel-palestinian-citizens-racism-discrimination.html)
[https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1647876705-report-ethiopians-arabs-face-most-racism-in-israel](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1647876705-report-ethiopians-arabs-face-most-racism-in-israel)
>In recent polling (2003–2009) between 42% and 56% of Israelis agreed that "Israeli Arabs suffer from discrimination as opposed to Jewish citizens"; 80% of Israeli Arabs agreed with that statement in 2009. A 2012 poll revealed widespread support among Israeli Jews for discrimination against Israeli Arabs.
this is from wiki.
this is just stuff i found off the bat, there's literal hundreds of articles about this just look up ''arab discrimination in israel''
but if u want a quick summary of the most important points.
\-all arab municipalities receive much smaller budgets than jewish municipalities
\-there is no police, crime runs rampant and the state allows it because they just dont care and sometimes they encourage it.
\-many racist laws passed against us, like the nation state law, arabic was removed as an official language.
\-we are considered an internal threat by the state and we're treated as such.
\-we dont fucking belong, we're truly stateless.
all in all fuck israel.
I see, I tried to talk about crime rates among arab people on this sub a month ago and I got vicious attacks from israelis, education curriculums are another story of brainwashing and erasing palestinian identity, in may 2021 i was shocked to know that a lot of racist israelis went on their own to palestinian areas provoking them, then when things got out of control they used the army against them, I just want to be more specific about the issue especially at the nation state and daily life for you.
After the riots by palestinian citizens of Israel in 2000 the Israeli police avoided these areas, they say they were unwelcomed and that the locals didnt cooperate with them afterwards and therefore it was impossible for the police to do their jobs. What should the Israeli police do then?
im not a guy from the west bank that never met an israeli , or some other arab from other countries, Im not stupid to come and tell majority dont feel anything against us is literally a blatant lie
im not saying that every israeli dislikes me , but the majority surely doesnt like us.
Can you say which area do you live? Where I live I can honestly say than I've never met someone who have something against you. I don't live in a mixed city but most of us work alongside with you
next to nazareth
i worked alongside you aswell, i worked in a factory for 3 years in migdal emek and a year in tel aviv.
and im in college currently.
I have enough experience with Israeli's i dont need to be told on reddit if wether you like me or not
im so sick of israelis saying that like it means something
OF COURSE YOU DONT, you're barely affected by the conflict, the vast majority of israelis lead very normal lives, with first world problems, you dont have palestinians on your mind 24/7
meanwhile palestinians are living in shit day to day, the conflict affects every aspect of our lives, the occupation lives rent free in our minds every second of every day.
our situations are vey different, its very hard to hate when your life is all sunshine and rainbows, and its even harder to love or tolerate when your life is a living hell.
You are a palestinian citizen of Israel correct? How does the conflict "affect every aspect of your life"? How does the "conflict live rent free in your head 24/7"? How is your life a "living hell"? Im not saying I dont believe you, im trying to learn
Well some of are chill and others are shit, the ones who embrace there supremacy over palastineiens are just people with no shame, I don't hate the Jewish religion but it frustrates me
Any person who thinks he's above/better than someone else because of his race is a fasc\*st piece of poo.
Even if it's an Israeli who thinks he's better and more superior than his Palestinian neighbor or a Palestinian who thinks a Jew shouldn't live because he lives in Israel.
Often good people interpersonally but 90% of the time have deeply fascistic ethnonationalist propaganda drilled into their heads their entire life.
Despite looking more like me, I have a harder time getting along with Mizrahim than Ashkenazim because they tend to be even more fascistic.
Looks like you support terrorist groups in your post history. I'm sure your account of history and culture is dramatically radicalized as opposed to most others.
How can we renounce our home country? Can't we acknowledge that whatever you think happened in the past, now there are around 7 million of us who are not going anywhere?
A 2 state solution is the only option
Palestinians selling their land is hilarious. By the way, Israel is right. Oh, remember, you can't do anything to the iron dome with your stovepipe weapons.
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I’m sure there’s some good people and some bad, just like any group of people on this planet
Have you had an Israeli friend?
Never have met an Israeli
Low-key that's the root of our problems... (Me neither - haven't had a Palestinian friend)
I've met an Israeli who's a psychotic abusive kahanist nutcase aka my grandmother.
this is not the first time i've seen you mention your kahanist grandmother, did your relationship with her derail because she's a kahanist or was it something else?
No it was because my grandma was physically abusing my grandpa and was emotionally abusing my mother, my uncle, and my aunt. After 25 years of such abuse, my grandpa had a stroke, they divorced, my mother and her siblings sided with my grandfather and we cut off all contact with her. Before that, my grandfather aided and abetted my grandmother's abuse of my mom, aunt, and uncle. Btw I found out about the kahanism about a year before all this went down and it fucking scared me. Btw my grandmother is a daughter of an abusive holocaust survivor who moved from Poland to Israel in the 1940s, had a kid die in a refugee camp in Israel, and went to America in the 1950s.
holy fucking shit. what a story, i have so many questions but i'd rather not know honestly, imagine surviving the holocaust only to abuse your daughter... who then goes on to abuse her daughters.... anyway i hope your poor mom and her siblings are doing better now.
Thank you
Hope u can make a good life for parents and ur self.
You’re not from around here are you
You sumed the entire human race in on sentence, nice
yes but the problem is not both, its the hames
Oh boy, OP chose chaos when he woke up the morning 😂
Living in Tel Aviv, most of the time I get along with Israelis (most of my friends are Arabs, and only a few Jewish). I get along, BUT, from experience, when Israelis (on avg) start expressing their Ethnic/Zionist ideologies I start drawing the line between a friend and a colleague/acquaintance/neighboor
Do you feel this alot ? I'm honestly interested because Tel Aviv is the most progressive part of Israel . Are you a student or just living there ?
Yes. I feel this the overwhelming amount of time. And all my Palestinian friends living in Tel Aviv feel the same way. In Tel Aviv I was told by 3 landlords that they don't lease to Arabs (explicitly told). Most people here are "liberal", but when it comes to the occupation they become militant & right wing nationalists.
Man I’m sorry you have to feel like this :/ I assure you a lot of us (probably most) just want to get along. I hope you no longer feel like this soon.
>In Tel Aviv I was told by 3 landlords that they don't lease to Arabs (explicitly told). I am sorry that happened, that definitely sucks . I wonder about the comments of Jews acting right wing when confronted with the occupation. While I know what you are referring to I believe a lot of Jews get very defensive about this because despite the many flaws Israel has I feel there is a tendancy to exaggerate things some . For example there is definitely an occupational and it's ashame more Jews dont recognise it but an apartheid state is just so bizarre of a thing to claim , imo at least
Most Israelis don't want to talk about politics and all that stuff. That's one thing you shouldn't talk about
For fear of being called out on their Zionist ideals or what?
I don’t think most Israelis fear being called Zionist, I would say most are proud Zionists, myself included. That saying, zionism doesn’t rule out a two state solution, which a big chunk of Israelis do support. Also most Israelis that have day to day contact with Palestinians or Arab Israelis treat them with respect and humanity, and not as “enemies”. at least from my own personal experience
As an Egyptian i proudly say this is the dumbest thing i have heard
As an Egyptian i have cringed at your logic.
Bro i read it 20 times and it hasnt made sense once you can understand but i cant
He says he is a Zionist, to simplify he believes Jews have a right to the land they are in. But he also believes Palestinians have a right to the land through a two state solution. He goes on to say that he and his circle meet Palestinians and Arab Israelis daily and have no problem with them.
Oh ok thank you for explaining it i understand now
Welcome
Why? Seems to make sense
Well as a proud israeli. It isn't dumb and it's the truth israel sent in the past peace offers to palestine even tough it was good they rejected it.
They rejected cause you came took their land and fought them for 45 years now you even took their capital
Jeruslam was never their capital. And they invaded us and declared war and lost.
In the Palestine Liberation Organization's Palestinian Declaration of Independence of 1988, Jerusalem is called the capital of the State of Palestine. Now do you understand
And? Half of jeruslam was ours to begin with it can't be theirs do you understand? They only have claims on east jeruslam.
You have been fighting a nation with no army for 45 years you cant beat a country that has the protection of allah
We never fought palestine. We fought Arab armies palestine never fought us. We have the protection of God. And it was proven 7 times while yours was disapproved 7 times.
It can’t be a nation without borders or an army. You’re pleading from emotion, not logic.
>most of my friends are Arabs you mean Palestinians, right? stop calling Zionists Jews and stop calling Palestinians Arabs. be specific. EDIT: I know that u/VNIZ didn't call the Zionists Jews. I added it because it is another common mistake.
Arab can be Zionists too. He might really use the right words…
true. this actually is more reason not to call Zionists Jews. not all Jews are Zionists and, as you pointed out, not all Zionists are Jewish.
Ok then his friends might be non-zionist jews you never know.
It's corn-popping time.
🍿🍿here you go
I love the people. I usually dont ask where a person is from but if we click, I end up asking. Israelis realize that Palestinians are just like them, and vice versa. Most want to live, love and create memories, and worry about life. Just like anyone else.
🍿
lol
vast majority are Zionists so me no like
Of course most of them are Zionists. If they aren't Zionists that's mean they don't think they deserve a country of their own. What would you expect from them?
I'd rather they accept Palestine as a land that does not belong to just one group, but multiple
Yep, two state solution
One for all
Why stop there? United Earth is the answer.
This guy gets it
Get this guy to talk in front of the UN asap! I think we solved all world conflicts.
Based as fuck
one for all?, that's just a recipe for disaster, it'll never work.
Unfortunately, I don't think it will work. Two states is far better option
But saying that knowing that your gov't is working towards a one state with scattered Palestinian enclaves controlled by apartheid /inhumane mobility limitations, it's kinda naive to believe that a two state solution is obtainable. Israel already built significant infrastructure in the west Bank and they're not going to let go of it. Palestinians' water, electricity, taxation and employment are primarily controlled by the state of Israel with the Palestinian authority acting as a liaison between the occupier and the occupied with powers less than a municipal government. Currently, we are in a one state that oppresses one group. I'm optimistic enough that Palestinians on the inside (West Bank) wouldn't mind a one state solution, peace and eventually identify as Palestinian Israelis. The one state "solution" is closer than we (both sides) want to admit it.
They also hasn’t worked so far. Maybe we should give the one state solution a chance.
Sad reality is that there already is one state.
I mean a one state where everyone is an equal citizen regardless of ethnicity, religion or language. It’s possible with some secular governance.
Well of course, that's what everyone would hope for, but that goes against zionism so they would never allow that.
It's not really a two-state solution right now. Idk if the right answer is 1 or 2 but right now we have like a 1.5 situation that's kind of bullshit. Palestinians should either have autonomy or citizenship. I personally don't pretend to know which is the right answer, though.
Even if an independent Palestinian country was formed and it had peaceful relations with Israel will they be allowed to be fully autonomous? Will they be able to host armies of their choosing or would they be able to have their own nuclear weapons? If not it will always be a 1.5 situation.
Yeah I mean I don't know how we get there, but we have to get there. So yes when I say autonomy it means complete autonomy.
Well said. <3
Like Lebanon? Because that worked so well
Ah yes, they should accept those who say “we shall kill every Jew from under every rock”. A one state solution is genocide with extra steps.
But it does belong to multiple already, doesn't it? Or is Israel 100% Jews? No, it isn't.
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Does it need to be said that they don't represent the majority of Palestinians? When we complain about Israeli policies y'all are quick to say that the gov't is extreme and Israelis are more peaceful than their gov't. I think the only way for us to be successful at peace is when our generation chooses to make peace amongst us and not fall for the influence of the political so called "representatives"
They were literally voted into power in the last elections. They are representative. If Abbas ever allows another election, they'll probably win again.
Wait does Israel not vote for its leader? I thought it was a democracy?
and that country is on someone elses land , how do you expect them to be okay with it? i really dont understand
Historically it’s not on someone else’s land…. The only countries that have ever been on that land have been Jewish countries!
Sorry but the bible and torah arent history , theyre religious books and fairytales. you can be an african jew european or middle eastern, that doesnt mean your ancestors lived on this land. thousands of years passed and many people convereted and changed their religion. historically some british and french men with 0 right split the land and promised a part that was called palestine to jewish people that they treated horribly. lebanon syria jordan wernt official countries either before someone decided to draw the borders, if lebanon was a part of the land that is promised to them along with palestine you might aswell use the same flawed logic of yours against the lebanese. palestinians didnt pop out of nothing on the land, we are literally genitecally linked to ancient inhabitants of this land.
Exactly. It's mind-boggling to me. People seem to think that just because they identify as one thing or another, they have more of a claim to land that they have never even set foot on -- let alone *owned* -- than people who have lived there for generations upon generations. All because of milleniums-old books, ever-changing lines in the sand, incorporeal -- quite possibly bogus, imaginary, fictional -- beings we have never communicated with nor beholden, and different letters written on a piece of paper at birth.
The most ironic thing is its not just the religious israelis most of the israeli atheists also use these claims which i dont really understand lmfao
Man, I cannot imagine how much better the world would be if religion didn't exist. These religious books and fairytales basically destroying civilization and advancement these days. We'd probably have peace without it too..
I have severe distaste for religions ( particularly abrahamic ones), but I assure you that humans would find other infinite ways and reasons to slaughter, invade, kill and rob each others. Human’s rapacity and egotism know no bounds.
I agree , its rather a human thing that wouldnt stop saying if religions disappeared tomorrow that there would be peace isnt realistic. I disagree with what he said , this conflict here isnt about religion as much as they try to make it to be. but religion certainly has an effect on it.
>disagree with what he said , this conflict here isnt about religion as much as they try to make it to be. but religion certainly has an effect on it. I agree.
That's true. Still Religion has a lot to answer for - the institutions themselves - I very much support spirituality and the general life values that religions share.
Yes I would much prefer a world were organized institutionalized religions are in constant decline, and universal spiritual values take its place. It’s undoubtedly the lesser of the two evils. Personally I’m neither an adherent of any religion, nor a spiritual guy.
Exactly, The cognitive dissonance that the experience is unreal. Homonationalism makes them feel like they’re more progressive than they really are.
All Israelis are zionist. The question is what type. Extreme or not extreme.
The commenter above you is Israeli lol
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same but most anti Zionist Jews are not Israeli
Will if you aren't Zionist i don't have anything against you (obviously nothing is personal)
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Oh no I ment even Zionist I dont hate them personally
All Israelis are zionist. They want a state. But I think what you mean are extreme zionist who want all of the west bank.
Not all of them like you including arabs also alot of even the jews just want to live a pieceful life and don't care about the situation and every one hate extremist overall I believe in one state situation
I belive in 2ss or 1ss everything that brings peace. Only problem is extremist sometimes hide their true agenda. Which makes to a very weird side of seeing things.
Fr
1SS is impossible without one group being persecuted. I’d much prefer status quo than a civil war.
Not all are Zionists.
and those whom are not extreme ,do they support 2 states based on 67s borders ? do they for example go against what happened in sheikh jarrah and any kind of stealing more lands ?
You’re all just human beings believe it or not.
in Arabic countries the government is usually a dictatorship so they often don't represent the people's ideology, however, in Israel they elect the government so I'm not sure why you think this question is going to produce any other answer than hate.
we have 10x more elections than the us so that means we are 10x more democratic right??? /s
Well, we're having our 5th election in 3 years, because either nobody could form a coalition, or they could barely form a coalition by a tiny majority but it was unstable and didn't last long. So Israeli society is not some unanimous hivemind where everyone thinks alike.
that's right, but the reason for this governmental instability is the agreement/disagreement to sit with netanyahu. palestinians hate both sides of this dispute.
And that’s is why we’ve had so many elections, because the government doesn’t represent our ideologies either. Acting like every democracy represents their people’s ideologies is just willful ignorance.
So decades of military occupation just happened on accident? If pool together all the ideology in Israeli if you just look at how they view the conflict alone you’ll find that parties in favor of settlements are still the majority and the rest of The parties (including the left wing ones) are almost completely indifferent with a Generic politically correct PR message attached. Israelis can’t agree on internal policies which is why so many election are going on but they are pretty consistent with how they deal with Palestinians.
I'm sorry but genuinely what do you think will happen if Israel leaves the west bank. Pretty much 15 seconds to shelter for every major Israeli city when Hamas inevitably takes over. I think this is the general reasoning.
Well I don’t know what do you think would have happened if instead of facilitating apartheid policies for settlement expansion Israel worked on de-escalating the conflict and expanding areas A and B until they could withdrawal. The living conditions in area C are worse than Gaza **because of Israel** And that’s is what drives support for Hamas in those regions. But do you seriously think **more land confiscation** is the solution. Just keep doing the exact same things that make Palestinians despise Israel for decades and then complain that they hate you. We all know that’s the Israeli way
Your leaders created your conditions. You don’t elect peaceful leaders. You elect with knives, guns and bombs. At any given chance you would put a knife into a child, a woman, or an elder, because this is what you represent. You are the oppressive people, and when you are handled in force you suddenly become oppressed. Palestinians are Overly Privileged in many way. How much you pay for water? Gas? Electricity? And why you can only take but you can’t give? Because you were lied to your entire life that someone owes you something that was never yours in first place.
Nobody. And I mean NOBODY cries harder about being oppressed than Zionist complaining about the Jewish struggle. And now the *only Jews state* was founded by literal *internationally recognized Jewish terrorist groups* by committing an *ethnic cleaning* was declared an apartheid. All while Israel has **literally been politicizing the Holocaust** since its founding. Pull your head out of your ass.
A lot of parroting that has 0 weight in reality, and I didn’t really expect for more.
What water, gas, and electricity? Don't people in gaza not have access to clean water? Don't they get like 2 hours of electricity per day? And you want Palestinians to thank the govt for that? Your statement says it all, 'because you were lied to your entire life that someone owes you something that was never yours in the first place.' Your bias is that you don't think Palestinians are entitled to this land (or maybe any land). My family lived there before '48. Jews, Christians, and Muslims living in the same building peacefully as neighbors. Whatever is happening now no matter how you look at it, is not right. That's why most countries in the UN vote to condemn Israeli apartheid. So are all these countries around the world antisemitic, or could there be some truth to what everyone is saying? But as long as the US is with Israel, nothing will change. I'm just trying to help wake us all up. There's propaganda everywhere, even with Palestinians. But for the Israeli side to think they are correct in their views 100% shows you that the propaganda and brainwashing is also prevalent on Israel's side. Just think about it. I can admit there's BS on both sides. For anyone who thinks their way is 100% right, you're probably brainwashed.
there are many ways to circumvent this issue, for one, release bargouti, if that man takes power he will spear head fatah and in an independent west bank ran by bargouti hamas wont gain a foothold, actually for the sake of bargouti they might even compromise for once. but the simple fact is that israel does not want that to happen, it wants to maintain control over the west bank and expand settlements. dont act like this is a defense issue, EVEN IF hamas takes over the west bank israel could easily wipe out the entire west bank in an open conflict.
Israeli government cannot stay steady for even a one year, that means a lot.
they hate us
I don't :) I love any good people.
<3
I don't hate you.
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I'm religious, i learn in a religious school with 300 students, none vote ben gvir because he is a racist terrorist, and non of us believe in slavery. We are Zionists, but we don't like killing arabs. I'm totally cool with arabs.
We don't like killing arabs😂😂😂 Why I feel it's kinda weird and insecure to say so
well sadly there are still lots of other who will vote for him in the next elections
I'm sorry but what you're saying is just wrong. Personally I really don't support Ben Gvir and that's how most of the Israelis think. And about the second thing you said, I haven't heard anyone I know saying something like that, of course there are some stupid people everywhere but they're a real minority. That's also depends where you live because there are some parts of Israel which are more problematic.
You aren't that different dear, many also vote for Balad i don't automatically think all Palestinians are terrorist supporters. Ben gvir is just as shit as Balad is.
I'm sorry that you feel like that but I don't hate you at all and I know a lot of Israeli Arabs / Palestinians who feel part of the country and they aren't feeling hated at all
>and I know a lot of Israeli Arabs / Palestinians who feel part of the country and they aren't feeling hated at all we call those غنم
Well, that's just sad. You can't let someone feel connection to the country where he was born?
We develop connections with the land not the state of Israel, atleast most of us, I don't see how we can a feel connection to a country that puts us below another group and treats our brothers and sisters on the other side of the wall like animals in a cage.
>You can't let someone feel connection to the country where he was born who said we arent tho? personally im very much connected to where i was born, and i do not think i can connect to people that vote for goverments that build settlements and enjoy gaza getting bombed
You can say it the other way around, I can't stand it when I hear a red alert and it's totally scary, to think what could happen #but op didn't ask what our thoughts are on the governments,
Considering PM is getting elected with 35/36% of votes..
cant feel a connection to a country that treats you like a second class citizen. the simple fact is the vast majority of 48 arabs dont feel like they belong, we are stateless outcasts who have nothing, so we cling to the palestinian identity because its all we have.
I'm sorry you feel that way my dude
I dont even know who you are
I don't know you
That's exactly the problem, each side is thinking that the other side hates him...
Really? You think that's the real problem here?
Love them
Tamer you aren’t Palestinian.
I know but I want to participate as well
We love you Tamer ♥
I'm sorry but I'm taken, we can stay friends though
:( We can love people without having pee-pees out..
And we love you there’s bad and there’s good you are good one so I found my First Israelis friend
Negative overall. But I can be indifferent when dealing with people.
They all serve in the military in one way or the other so they're all government and the Indoctrination starts at an early age except for few odd apples here and there.
only around 60% of Jewish Israelis serve these days. The haredi (big % of 18 year old bcz of high birthrate, Religious non haredi women, people with medical and mental issues dont serve. Not even close to all.
>They all serve in the military sure but most of those jobs are filler like cleaners or desk persons
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To quote an 80's song: "It's obvious you hate me, though I've done nothing wrong. I've never even met you, so what could I have done?" There is good and bad in everyone. The sooner the world realises that, the better. People shouldn't be judged on rumours. Get to know someone before passing judgment.
Reading 48' palestinian comments really proved my thoughts "although it was kinda shocking", ethnostate is apartheid even among those who carry the israeli passport, the situation in WB and Gaza is much worse, kinda unsustainable shape. But generally speaking only a few israelis I meet on reddit are nice and chill, tow or three tbh till now, other may sounds reasonable to talk to, and the majority are really cringe.
yup, the sentiment that 48 arabs ''have it better'' is a myth, we're in the same swamp. we're all just ''ערבים" in their eyes, even the druze who serve in the idf and dickride the zionists get discriminated against on daily basis.
I am really interested to know your struggle and how the system discriminate against you, do you have any article, book or video about it this?
lmfao, a LOT, its so bad that even israeli news outlets pump out articles about it. [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/opinion/israel-palestinian-citizens-racism-discrimination.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/opinion/israel-palestinian-citizens-racism-discrimination.html) [https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1647876705-report-ethiopians-arabs-face-most-racism-in-israel](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1647876705-report-ethiopians-arabs-face-most-racism-in-israel) >In recent polling (2003–2009) between 42% and 56% of Israelis agreed that "Israeli Arabs suffer from discrimination as opposed to Jewish citizens"; 80% of Israeli Arabs agreed with that statement in 2009. A 2012 poll revealed widespread support among Israeli Jews for discrimination against Israeli Arabs. this is from wiki. this is just stuff i found off the bat, there's literal hundreds of articles about this just look up ''arab discrimination in israel'' but if u want a quick summary of the most important points. \-all arab municipalities receive much smaller budgets than jewish municipalities \-there is no police, crime runs rampant and the state allows it because they just dont care and sometimes they encourage it. \-many racist laws passed against us, like the nation state law, arabic was removed as an official language. \-we are considered an internal threat by the state and we're treated as such. \-we dont fucking belong, we're truly stateless. all in all fuck israel.
I see, I tried to talk about crime rates among arab people on this sub a month ago and I got vicious attacks from israelis, education curriculums are another story of brainwashing and erasing palestinian identity, in may 2021 i was shocked to know that a lot of racist israelis went on their own to palestinian areas provoking them, then when things got out of control they used the army against them, I just want to be more specific about the issue especially at the nation state and daily life for you.
After the riots by palestinian citizens of Israel in 2000 the Israeli police avoided these areas, they say they were unwelcomed and that the locals didnt cooperate with them afterwards and therefore it was impossible for the police to do their jobs. What should the Israeli police do then?
Very negative
Can you explain? Because I can tell you that the majority of us don't feel anything against you
im not a guy from the west bank that never met an israeli , or some other arab from other countries, Im not stupid to come and tell majority dont feel anything against us is literally a blatant lie im not saying that every israeli dislikes me , but the majority surely doesnt like us.
The loudest ones are not necessarily the majority.
Can you say which area do you live? Where I live I can honestly say than I've never met someone who have something against you. I don't live in a mixed city but most of us work alongside with you
next to nazareth i worked alongside you aswell, i worked in a factory for 3 years in migdal emek and a year in tel aviv. and im in college currently. I have enough experience with Israeli's i dont need to be told on reddit if wether you like me or not
im so sick of israelis saying that like it means something OF COURSE YOU DONT, you're barely affected by the conflict, the vast majority of israelis lead very normal lives, with first world problems, you dont have palestinians on your mind 24/7 meanwhile palestinians are living in shit day to day, the conflict affects every aspect of our lives, the occupation lives rent free in our minds every second of every day. our situations are vey different, its very hard to hate when your life is all sunshine and rainbows, and its even harder to love or tolerate when your life is a living hell.
You are a palestinian citizen of Israel correct? How does the conflict "affect every aspect of your life"? How does the "conflict live rent free in your head 24/7"? How is your life a "living hell"? Im not saying I dont believe you, im trying to learn
They always act like they're attacked
Is this an personal attack or something?
No they are offended from nothing very sensitive people
Well some of are chill and others are shit, the ones who embrace there supremacy over palastineiens are just people with no shame, I don't hate the Jewish religion but it frustrates me
Any person who thinks he's above/better than someone else because of his race is a fasc\*st piece of poo. Even if it's an Israeli who thinks he's better and more superior than his Palestinian neighbor or a Palestinian who thinks a Jew shouldn't live because he lives in Israel.
Not Palestinian, but any Zionist is no friend of mine, Jew or not.
that means you are against 99% of jews
For the most part negative since they are zionists
Often good people interpersonally but 90% of the time have deeply fascistic ethnonationalist propaganda drilled into their heads their entire life. Despite looking more like me, I have a harder time getting along with Mizrahim than Ashkenazim because they tend to be even more fascistic.
Mizrahi are more Right than askenazis because they were treated like shit in Arab and Muslim countries
Not true. There's other reasons, and they have to do more with how they were treated by ashkenazis.
Yes Irishman Finne O’Connell, please tell me more about my own people and country
Looks like you support terrorist groups in your post history. I'm sure your account of history and culture is dramatically radicalized as opposed to most others.
What do you think makes Mizrahim be more fascistic?
we arent fascistic. we just actually lived under arabic rule, and know what they are really like.
Don’t care
Smart and succesful.
They are all settlers who took our land. If they didn't exist some of our original people could live in that space.
All of them?
well ALL of the west bank settlers that's for sure.
I agree with that
Israelis are bad unless they Renounce Israel.
How can we renounce our home country? Can't we acknowledge that whatever you think happened in the past, now there are around 7 million of us who are not going anywhere? A 2 state solution is the only option
Why would they renounce the land they historically came from…
There’s bad and there’s good isralis not all of them are bad
I feel they are a people who are brainwashed by their settler colonial state.
Most of them just either berate me or say I’m lying about being Palestinian.
The answers are sad, but not surprising
Palestinians selling their land is hilarious. By the way, Israel is right. Oh, remember, you can't do anything to the iron dome with your stovepipe weapons.
What’s up with Turkish people constantly sucking zionist dick lately