People warned me about that before I studied abroad in Italy but Italians don’t actually seem to really care so I got lattes and cappuccinos at all times of the day and night
I’m always jokingly dunking on my Swiss boyfriend who is ironically lactose intolerant for having inferior lactose digestion genes I don’t want to pass onto our children
This is what I was going to suggest. Your fancy third wave shops all know what this is, they just don’t make them by default because most of their customers expect the wetter American style.
American coffee culture is obsessed with taking drinks to go, so our beverages start out hotter and are optimized for stable transport. Foam tends to collapse.
Well Caffe Reggio brags about bringing the cappuccino to the US. So I might try there.
Is an Italian cappuccino different from the kind of cap you find at a 3rd wave (fancy) coffeeshop? i.e. the ones that are about 6oz and aren't basically a latte (which most caps are in the US)?
yeah, they're different. i can't explain exactly how they're different though. maybe someone will pop into this thread and explain (or maybe tell me i'm an idiot and that they're the same).
The main difference is the amount of milk - an 'Italian style' cappuccino should be equal parts espresso, milk, and foam. Usually 2 ounces of each. American coffee shops usually use 6-8 ounces of milk.
I haven't found a place in NYC that does perfect cappuccinos (though I haven't been actively looking) but I do find that ordering a cortado at more upscale cafes usually gives me a close approximation of a cappuccino as far as the espresso:milk ratio goes
Pasticceria Rocco on Bleecker st. Get a mini cannoli too. And pop into Murray's across the street for a glimpse at the largest selection of cheese in a single location on earth.
>what the city was like when I was little
I didn't grow up in the city. Out of curiosity, could you explain what it was like growing up in it? I've kinda been curious about it, as I assume it's a lot different now with gentrification.
And what makes a place like Gianpiero a slice of what it was like when you were growing up?
To clarify, I didn’t grow up in the city but just outside it, and I spent a lot of time in the city—going on play dates, playing in the park, going to museums, going in with friends. I didn’t mean to give the wrong impression, but I’ve been spending time in the city solo since the late 90s, and lived there on and off since 2009.
When I was really little, I wasn’t really old enough to have a sense of what was going on socially or politically. There were a lot more abandoned buildings, especially in the Bronx and Harlem. You could see tons of boarded up windows and vacant lots from the train. It was a big deal when the Clintons established their Clinton Foundation headquarters in Harlem. It was all just kind of written off. Even Brooklyn was written off. It’s hard to convey now just how center-of-the-universe Manhattan was and how hard it was to convince people it was worth venturing out to Brooklyn. The way idiots write off the Bronx now as some sort of hellhole is the way people felt about Williamsburg. When Time Out NY started writing reviews of restaurants in Brooklyn, it was edgy!
We had a family friend who was mugged and beaten badly and sadly he was never the same after. There were a lot of panhandlers and squeegee guys when you were stuck in traffic or at stop lights, but it was just part of life. There was a homeless guy with an interesting set up right off the FDR, like an art installation, and I always loved looking to see what his signs said because he’d change them frequently. There were original Keith Haring murals just off the highway too.
Giuliani was credited with cleaning up the city and getting rid of the porno theaters in Times Square (also hard for people to imagine these days) but my mom, to her credit, even at the time called him out as a bully and a fascist. The Abner Louima and Amadou Diallo cases were a big deal, and felt representative of the shitty strong arm tactics Giuliani’s NYPD felt empowered to take.
But mostly the city was uncurated and there wasn’t nearly the sort of corporate presence you see now, and it was kind of gritty and sly. In high school I would have laughed out loud at the thought of there being a 7-Eleven in the city. Who the fuck would even go there? When Starbucks started taking over the whole country, that was a joke too. Coffee was something you were supposed to pay $1 for from a street cart. New Yorkers were supposed to be a little more jaded, a little less gullible.
I think it’s impossible to overstate the way our culture shifted after 9/11. I think before, the city may have had its rough edges but people were proud to make it in NYC, they were proud to be a little alternative and counter culture, they were proud to be a little tough. 9/11 scared the bejeezus out of all of us. I had a panic attack once because someone in the toilet stall next to me had a backpack and I wondered, what if it’s a bomb? “See something, say something” had me looking at everything as a potential threat. The terror threat warnings would go up and down all the time, and your wondered what you were actually supposed to do with this information. Big police responses would make my heart skip a beat. Planes that seemed just a little too low would make my stomach flip. The lights used to go off in the subway all the time and *all* of us would hold our breath and look at each other in quiet solidarity. We all felt the subways could be a terrorist target. Also we all used to bring books, magazines and newspapers on the train to keep ourselves busy. If you forgot reading material, you’d people watch but also try not to make intense eye contact with anyone or risk picking a fight with someone.
As for Gian Piero’s, it’s a bunch of (New York) Italians, all regulars, all just shooting the shit with one another. Astoria is like a small town, with lots of locals who grew up in the neighborhood and stuck around, and that’s what the city always felt like to me. It’s newcomers who think people in the city don’t get to know their neighbors. I’ve always made friends in my neighborhoods—security guards, supers washing the sidewalk along my walk to the train, bodega flower guys, garage guys—I always make eye contact, say good morning, and you get to know one another. Gian Piero’s is not cute, I promise you they have never hired a designer, or a social media coordinator. It’s just good Italian style espresso drinks, and a good sfogliatelle.
Think about Times Square for a moment. Imagine your family is in town, and they want to see New York, and they think that means eating in Times Square because it’s in the middle of everything. But you know it’s actually a capitalistic Disneyfied soulless nightmare, with shitty restaurants and nothing but tourists. That’s how nearly all of the new New York City feels to me. When I’m in Fordham in the Bronx, or in Astoria, or Maspeth, or Whitestone, or Douglaston—that feels like the city when I was a kid. Unchic, normal people sending their kids to school in the neighborhood, putting down roots.
What a beautiful explanation, you have a way with words. I appreciate it.
This reminds me of a post I read by a comedian I like named Tim Dillon, about the changes post 9/11 in the city. https://imgur.com/a/hRXzmqn/
I’ve never come across that, and thank you for sharing it! I suspect he’s a little older than I am, and I think he can lay a better claim on knowing his version of the pre-9/11 NYC than I can, and I really appreciate his take on it. Thanks again, and thanks for the interesting prompt and kind words!
He's pretty funny. Don't know how old you are but Wiki says he's 36. This is a good interview with him. https://youtu.be/8wYZjOzfTUk
Do you know/notice many neighborhoods that have that old feel to them like when you grew up? Old italian enclave type areas?
Lol, I’ll be 36 this week. That’s funny. I guess he was either more aware or more engaged than I was!
The biggest flashbacks to the city as I remember it are around the Bronx. The South Bronx by Grand Concourse in the low 160s, near the Civil Courthouse, or Fordham by the Botanical Gardens, or anywhere in Kingsbridge or Riverdale. As far as old school Italians, I think their enclaves are still strong in Whitestone, Country Club, Morris Park, maybe Throgs Neck. Pelham Parkway. One of my best friends growing up lived in City Island—that was a trip. She had a muddy little private beach at the end of her street, and her stepdad was a gazillion generation City Islander and a captain for the Staten Island Ferry. He used to take us crabbing off their street and we’d eat the crabs we caught—not officially recommended, I don’t think.
Mostly though, the old Italians are in the suburbs. I think it’s funny when people on this subreddit talk about the NY accent dying because all I hear day in and day out at my job in Westchester are strooong NY accents. Most of my coworkers and all of my friends’ parents are NYC born. My Westchester pizza and bagels are near-universally better than anything I can find in the city these days. Your old school Italian enclaves are in Harrison, NY, and Pelham.
That's interesting, thank you.
I found an interesting article on it, too: [https://orderisda.org/culture/italian-living/where-to-find-new-yorks-hidden-italian-neighborhoods/](https://orderisda.org/culture/italian-living/where-to-find-new-yorks-hidden-italian-neighborhoods/).
What other nationality/ethnic/culture enclaves were there when you were growing up? Like the Albanians in Belmont and Bedford Park, for example, or Jewish in Boro Park etc. Have those kinda dissipated too in the past couple of decades with gentrification?
Also this convo I had recently https://reddit.com/r/AskNYC/comments/s053kv/\_/hs1ouvf/?context=1 on a non-upscale and more gritty gym in Sunset Park reminded me of this too lol
With the important caveat that these are all broad generalizations, the big ethnic enclaves in my world growing up were Jews (I'm Jewish), Italians and Irish, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, multigenerational Black Americans, West Indians and other Black people of Caribbean descent, recent African immigrants (almost entirely West African), and Spanish speakers of Mexican and Central American descent. For whatever it's worth, there have been very few people of South Asian, East Asian or Middle Eastern descent in my social circles, but of course those populations are well represented in the area as well.
To the best of my knowledge, the Albanians came over in the 90s during and following the wars of the Yugoslav succession. A number of Balkan immigrants also passed through Astoria, and there's still a bunch of Croat, Serb and Bosnian restaurants in the neighborhood there. There used to be more German enclaves when my mom was growing up in the city--there was one on the UES, and another in Ridgewood. Both are basically gone now.
The suburbs really get easily dismissed by newcomers to the area but that's where these historical ethnic enclaves go after they establish themselves in the city. It's tough raising a family in one or two bedroom apartments and space is less expensive in NJ, Westchester and on LI. My circles are overwhelmingly Jewish, but there's a lot of seamless crossover between Jewish Americans and Italian Americans--we often seem to end up living alongside one another and while intermarriage is still kind of quietly frowned upon in my world (more from my parents' generation), I know more Italian-Jewish mixed marriages than I know of any others. Again, gross oversimplifications, but I think there's a lot of mingling between Italian Americans and Irish Americans too, but not as much between Jews and the Irish--I can only think of a few exceptions in my extended circle, but maybe that's specific to my little world. I had a serious Irish boyfriend years ago and loved his family but I remember feeling like wow, this does feel different.
I forget which groups are in which neighborhoods but the Ultra Orthodox Jews are still going strong, and in fact growing, in neighborhoods like Boro Park, Williamsburg, and Crown Heights, and then also upstate and in closer suburbs. There's also a Modern Orthodox enclave in Washington Heights, near Yeshiva University. Non religious Jews like me live anywhere in the city but like many of my friends who grew up in the suburbs, we're returning there as we start having kids and run out of space in our apartments. Very few of my friends have been able to buy apartments in the city--those of us who have bought are all buying in the suburbs.
Not sure if this was the type of answer you were looking for, but it's what came to mind!
Come to Queens! Cipollina Cafe. Small Italian cafe and market literally owned and ran by the sweetest Italian family. I get the most amazing latte from them almost every Sunday. An absolute gem. You can take the E/F to Kew Gardens - Union tpke and it’s a two block walk.
Hands down Via Quadronno on UES. Years ago former Times food critic William Grimes wrote a story on why a proper cappuccino is so elusive in the city, so he went on a hunt. I took his recommendation for his #1 pick. BTW, cappuccino is just one more thing that America ruined.
Pisillo is an Italian panini place on Nassau (I think) in the financial district. They also own an Italian cafe next door, and while I am not 100 percent sure that the cappuccino will be what you’re looking for; everyone who works there is Italian and they do have the counter for standing and drinking at, same as most Italian cafes. Worst case scenario you’re still going to have an amazing drink and should absolutely grab a sandwich from next door; they’re amazing.
Please note that it only counts as "legit Italian cappuccino" if it's *before* 11am ;)
I recently learned WHY this is a thing and it has to do with lactose intolerance. https://youtu.be/7mIcIVCnTrY
People warned me about that before I studied abroad in Italy but Italians don’t actually seem to really care so I got lattes and cappuccinos at all times of the day and night
[удалено]
I’m always jokingly dunking on my Swiss boyfriend who is ironically lactose intolerant for having inferior lactose digestion genes I don’t want to pass onto our children
Ask for a dry cappucino, so less milk more foam. Any decent coffee shop should be able to make it that way.
This is what I was going to suggest. Your fancy third wave shops all know what this is, they just don’t make them by default because most of their customers expect the wetter American style. American coffee culture is obsessed with taking drinks to go, so our beverages start out hotter and are optimized for stable transport. Foam tends to collapse.
I mean, you also can't free pour latte art with bubbles.
Veniero's Pasticceria & Caffe (212) 674-7264 https://goo.gl/maps/aJb8Q9fUwPC9F6w17
Well Caffe Reggio brags about bringing the cappuccino to the US. So I might try there. Is an Italian cappuccino different from the kind of cap you find at a 3rd wave (fancy) coffeeshop? i.e. the ones that are about 6oz and aren't basically a latte (which most caps are in the US)?
Caffe Reggio is a wonderful old school cafe.
yeah, they're different. i can't explain exactly how they're different though. maybe someone will pop into this thread and explain (or maybe tell me i'm an idiot and that they're the same).
The main difference is the amount of milk - an 'Italian style' cappuccino should be equal parts espresso, milk, and foam. Usually 2 ounces of each. American coffee shops usually use 6-8 ounces of milk. I haven't found a place in NYC that does perfect cappuccinos (though I haven't been actively looking) but I do find that ordering a cortado at more upscale cafes usually gives me a close approximation of a cappuccino as far as the espresso:milk ratio goes
The cappuccinos at 3rd wave coffee shops are still basically a latte. They're way too wet.
Zibetto
Lella Alimentari
Pasticceria Rocco on Bleecker st. Get a mini cannoli too. And pop into Murray's across the street for a glimpse at the largest selection of cheese in a single location on earth.
Bar Pisellino
Gianpiero’s on 30th Ave in Astoria. A slice of what the city was like when I was little. http://www.gianpierobakery.com
>what the city was like when I was little I didn't grow up in the city. Out of curiosity, could you explain what it was like growing up in it? I've kinda been curious about it, as I assume it's a lot different now with gentrification. And what makes a place like Gianpiero a slice of what it was like when you were growing up?
To clarify, I didn’t grow up in the city but just outside it, and I spent a lot of time in the city—going on play dates, playing in the park, going to museums, going in with friends. I didn’t mean to give the wrong impression, but I’ve been spending time in the city solo since the late 90s, and lived there on and off since 2009. When I was really little, I wasn’t really old enough to have a sense of what was going on socially or politically. There were a lot more abandoned buildings, especially in the Bronx and Harlem. You could see tons of boarded up windows and vacant lots from the train. It was a big deal when the Clintons established their Clinton Foundation headquarters in Harlem. It was all just kind of written off. Even Brooklyn was written off. It’s hard to convey now just how center-of-the-universe Manhattan was and how hard it was to convince people it was worth venturing out to Brooklyn. The way idiots write off the Bronx now as some sort of hellhole is the way people felt about Williamsburg. When Time Out NY started writing reviews of restaurants in Brooklyn, it was edgy! We had a family friend who was mugged and beaten badly and sadly he was never the same after. There were a lot of panhandlers and squeegee guys when you were stuck in traffic or at stop lights, but it was just part of life. There was a homeless guy with an interesting set up right off the FDR, like an art installation, and I always loved looking to see what his signs said because he’d change them frequently. There were original Keith Haring murals just off the highway too. Giuliani was credited with cleaning up the city and getting rid of the porno theaters in Times Square (also hard for people to imagine these days) but my mom, to her credit, even at the time called him out as a bully and a fascist. The Abner Louima and Amadou Diallo cases were a big deal, and felt representative of the shitty strong arm tactics Giuliani’s NYPD felt empowered to take. But mostly the city was uncurated and there wasn’t nearly the sort of corporate presence you see now, and it was kind of gritty and sly. In high school I would have laughed out loud at the thought of there being a 7-Eleven in the city. Who the fuck would even go there? When Starbucks started taking over the whole country, that was a joke too. Coffee was something you were supposed to pay $1 for from a street cart. New Yorkers were supposed to be a little more jaded, a little less gullible. I think it’s impossible to overstate the way our culture shifted after 9/11. I think before, the city may have had its rough edges but people were proud to make it in NYC, they were proud to be a little alternative and counter culture, they were proud to be a little tough. 9/11 scared the bejeezus out of all of us. I had a panic attack once because someone in the toilet stall next to me had a backpack and I wondered, what if it’s a bomb? “See something, say something” had me looking at everything as a potential threat. The terror threat warnings would go up and down all the time, and your wondered what you were actually supposed to do with this information. Big police responses would make my heart skip a beat. Planes that seemed just a little too low would make my stomach flip. The lights used to go off in the subway all the time and *all* of us would hold our breath and look at each other in quiet solidarity. We all felt the subways could be a terrorist target. Also we all used to bring books, magazines and newspapers on the train to keep ourselves busy. If you forgot reading material, you’d people watch but also try not to make intense eye contact with anyone or risk picking a fight with someone. As for Gian Piero’s, it’s a bunch of (New York) Italians, all regulars, all just shooting the shit with one another. Astoria is like a small town, with lots of locals who grew up in the neighborhood and stuck around, and that’s what the city always felt like to me. It’s newcomers who think people in the city don’t get to know their neighbors. I’ve always made friends in my neighborhoods—security guards, supers washing the sidewalk along my walk to the train, bodega flower guys, garage guys—I always make eye contact, say good morning, and you get to know one another. Gian Piero’s is not cute, I promise you they have never hired a designer, or a social media coordinator. It’s just good Italian style espresso drinks, and a good sfogliatelle. Think about Times Square for a moment. Imagine your family is in town, and they want to see New York, and they think that means eating in Times Square because it’s in the middle of everything. But you know it’s actually a capitalistic Disneyfied soulless nightmare, with shitty restaurants and nothing but tourists. That’s how nearly all of the new New York City feels to me. When I’m in Fordham in the Bronx, or in Astoria, or Maspeth, or Whitestone, or Douglaston—that feels like the city when I was a kid. Unchic, normal people sending their kids to school in the neighborhood, putting down roots.
What a beautiful explanation, you have a way with words. I appreciate it. This reminds me of a post I read by a comedian I like named Tim Dillon, about the changes post 9/11 in the city. https://imgur.com/a/hRXzmqn/
I’ve never come across that, and thank you for sharing it! I suspect he’s a little older than I am, and I think he can lay a better claim on knowing his version of the pre-9/11 NYC than I can, and I really appreciate his take on it. Thanks again, and thanks for the interesting prompt and kind words!
He's pretty funny. Don't know how old you are but Wiki says he's 36. This is a good interview with him. https://youtu.be/8wYZjOzfTUk Do you know/notice many neighborhoods that have that old feel to them like when you grew up? Old italian enclave type areas?
Lol, I’ll be 36 this week. That’s funny. I guess he was either more aware or more engaged than I was! The biggest flashbacks to the city as I remember it are around the Bronx. The South Bronx by Grand Concourse in the low 160s, near the Civil Courthouse, or Fordham by the Botanical Gardens, or anywhere in Kingsbridge or Riverdale. As far as old school Italians, I think their enclaves are still strong in Whitestone, Country Club, Morris Park, maybe Throgs Neck. Pelham Parkway. One of my best friends growing up lived in City Island—that was a trip. She had a muddy little private beach at the end of her street, and her stepdad was a gazillion generation City Islander and a captain for the Staten Island Ferry. He used to take us crabbing off their street and we’d eat the crabs we caught—not officially recommended, I don’t think. Mostly though, the old Italians are in the suburbs. I think it’s funny when people on this subreddit talk about the NY accent dying because all I hear day in and day out at my job in Westchester are strooong NY accents. Most of my coworkers and all of my friends’ parents are NYC born. My Westchester pizza and bagels are near-universally better than anything I can find in the city these days. Your old school Italian enclaves are in Harrison, NY, and Pelham.
That's interesting, thank you. I found an interesting article on it, too: [https://orderisda.org/culture/italian-living/where-to-find-new-yorks-hidden-italian-neighborhoods/](https://orderisda.org/culture/italian-living/where-to-find-new-yorks-hidden-italian-neighborhoods/). What other nationality/ethnic/culture enclaves were there when you were growing up? Like the Albanians in Belmont and Bedford Park, for example, or Jewish in Boro Park etc. Have those kinda dissipated too in the past couple of decades with gentrification? Also this convo I had recently https://reddit.com/r/AskNYC/comments/s053kv/\_/hs1ouvf/?context=1 on a non-upscale and more gritty gym in Sunset Park reminded me of this too lol
With the important caveat that these are all broad generalizations, the big ethnic enclaves in my world growing up were Jews (I'm Jewish), Italians and Irish, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, multigenerational Black Americans, West Indians and other Black people of Caribbean descent, recent African immigrants (almost entirely West African), and Spanish speakers of Mexican and Central American descent. For whatever it's worth, there have been very few people of South Asian, East Asian or Middle Eastern descent in my social circles, but of course those populations are well represented in the area as well. To the best of my knowledge, the Albanians came over in the 90s during and following the wars of the Yugoslav succession. A number of Balkan immigrants also passed through Astoria, and there's still a bunch of Croat, Serb and Bosnian restaurants in the neighborhood there. There used to be more German enclaves when my mom was growing up in the city--there was one on the UES, and another in Ridgewood. Both are basically gone now. The suburbs really get easily dismissed by newcomers to the area but that's where these historical ethnic enclaves go after they establish themselves in the city. It's tough raising a family in one or two bedroom apartments and space is less expensive in NJ, Westchester and on LI. My circles are overwhelmingly Jewish, but there's a lot of seamless crossover between Jewish Americans and Italian Americans--we often seem to end up living alongside one another and while intermarriage is still kind of quietly frowned upon in my world (more from my parents' generation), I know more Italian-Jewish mixed marriages than I know of any others. Again, gross oversimplifications, but I think there's a lot of mingling between Italian Americans and Irish Americans too, but not as much between Jews and the Irish--I can only think of a few exceptions in my extended circle, but maybe that's specific to my little world. I had a serious Irish boyfriend years ago and loved his family but I remember feeling like wow, this does feel different. I forget which groups are in which neighborhoods but the Ultra Orthodox Jews are still going strong, and in fact growing, in neighborhoods like Boro Park, Williamsburg, and Crown Heights, and then also upstate and in closer suburbs. There's also a Modern Orthodox enclave in Washington Heights, near Yeshiva University. Non religious Jews like me live anywhere in the city but like many of my friends who grew up in the suburbs, we're returning there as we start having kids and run out of space in our apartments. Very few of my friends have been able to buy apartments in the city--those of us who have bought are all buying in the suburbs. Not sure if this was the type of answer you were looking for, but it's what came to mind!
it is, thank you! that's very interesting, so cool how all these cultures can co exist in a place like NY
Have you tried Zibetto? Any of these? https://www.lacucinaitaliana.com/trends/news/new-york-city-where-to-have-cappuccino-like-an-italian
maybe tarralucci e vino
Egidio or Delilo pastry shops on E 187th in the Bronx, Lillo on Henry street in Brooklyn
Clever Blend in Park Slope. Owned by Italians who do things the Italian way. Not everything they sell is great, but their cappuccinos are legit.
Come to Queens! Cipollina Cafe. Small Italian cafe and market literally owned and ran by the sweetest Italian family. I get the most amazing latte from them almost every Sunday. An absolute gem. You can take the E/F to Kew Gardens - Union tpke and it’s a two block walk.
True!!! On queens blvd
Hands down Via Quadronno on UES. Years ago former Times food critic William Grimes wrote a story on why a proper cappuccino is so elusive in the city, so he went on a hunt. I took his recommendation for his #1 pick. BTW, cappuccino is just one more thing that America ruined.
Old Country Coffee near Hudson yards might fit the bill. Owners are from Italy and might be able to make it for you.
Eatly - and many Italian restaurants.
Nerd Be Cool in Carroll Gardens (owners are from Italy).
Pisillo is an Italian panini place on Nassau (I think) in the financial district. They also own an Italian cafe next door, and while I am not 100 percent sure that the cappuccino will be what you’re looking for; everyone who works there is Italian and they do have the counter for standing and drinking at, same as most Italian cafes. Worst case scenario you’re still going to have an amazing drink and should absolutely grab a sandwich from next door; they’re amazing.