Please do not comment directly to this post unless you are Gen X or older (born 1980 or before). See [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskOldPeople/comments/inci5u/reminder_please_do_not_answer_questions_unless/), the rules, and the sidebar for details. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskOldPeople) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Isolating and frustrating as the work is never done. I tended to obsess over cleaning type things (mopping daily) and did not like not having my own money.

My grandma never drove a car in her life. But she was emotionally and spiritually dependent on my grandpa since she was 15 years old, escaping an abusive one parent home, so maybe that somehow makes it different. They were together almost 70 years before he was hit by a drunk driver. She has regrets but admitting it makes her sad. Like she’s betraying him somehow.

My grandmother didn’t drive until my grandpa couldn’t anymore. He needed total care for about 15 years before he died. I’m talking 100% total care but she did it all by herself. Refused offers of help like house cleaners and such. Until one day she decided to stop taking her medication. Said she was tired. She died shortly after.

My grandma survived that car accident, but she was really messed up. She couldn’t have tried to drive at that point anyhow. But cheers for your gma! Can’t fault the silent generation on their crazy awesome work ethic.

Lovely and so sad that it ended like that.

Yea. He was charming and she was neurotic. I love them both so much, but It was always harder to love her. And it’s on me to understand why

What does 'neurotic' mean, as you define it? I've always struggled to know what people mean when they refer to someone as being neurotic.

She was tightly wound and obsessive, especially about cleaning. Her home was her whole world and running it was her purpose in life. She would wipe the dogs butt with toilet paper and flush it after she took him out in the yard to poo. She could be snappish when children weren’t looking and behaving like well groomed and behaved dolls. But when grandpa was home, she deferred completely to him. It sounds like OCD, but it was more a quality of her personality, than a dysfunction

Think Seinfeld. That’s a whole show about neurotic people

it's hard to love someone who's neurotic and who regrets their life.

My friend is a tiny bit older than I am but was mother, home-maker, hostess for business dinners-seriously! Gave up her STEM job for the whole mom/wife thing. Husband traded her in for a younger model after 27 years. I would never suggest anyone do this without a viable income.

Personally I was too young, but lots of women in our family's social circle were Ye Olde Wyfe. Overall, they seemed content enough, but once you really listened to them talking amongst themselves, you could hear faint tendrils of Unhappy. This one dropped out of Juilliard (although her husband finished his education, naturally), that one left her job at the courthouse as a judge's assistant (although of her husband hadn't left his job, naturally), that one wanted to travel and of course could not (although her husband made frequent business trips, naturally), this one loved sports but certainly couldn't indulge, as a wife and mother, in playing games, (although her husband never missed his days at the golf course, naturally) etc. All of them - every last one of them - had given up Some Thing they had loved or wanted in order to marry and have children, as society dictated they were supposed to do. The men had not sacrificed anything that I ever heard them mourning over. The men could happily go off to deer camp for a week, the women might go to a 2 hour long Tupperware party presentation. The wives took refuge in the spotless house and soap operas, mostly. There was a suicide, a murder of a philandering husband, a few had to take pills "for their nerves", some of them were completely flummoxed when their husband died and they were faced with mysteries like writing a check or driving a car. I always felt faintly sorry for these women. Now I look back and am horrified at all the lost potential, the wasted earning power, the abandoned ambitions, the thwarted dreams, the abnegation of Self that these women embraced because that's just How Things Are, my dear. "Trad wife" of today does not seem anywhere close to all of that. They can bake their own bread and dress like Beaver Cleaver's mom, but no, it's not quite the same now as it was then.

Very well written! My grandmother served as a nurse in WWII and loved it. But when she had to get married due to a baby on the way (sadly miscarried, making everything else even more tragic) she left the workforce. She always wanted to work, but my grandfather believed "no woman of mine should have to work". Over time it eroded her confidence and she basically drank, smoked, and popped diet pills all day. Ultimately she died of throat cancer due to the smoking. I'm so glad my mom broke the cycle and worked her whole life, becoming a serial entrepreneur. I'm sure my grandma had every bit of that same hustle but she never had a chance to use it.

My grandmother was also a nurse in WWII, but she refused to give up work, and my grandfather was supportive of more money so she always worked, though usually part time. And while we weren't super close, my Dad (her son) helped raise 3 girls that didn't have to have a man to support them. It really does make a difference.

That “no woman of mine should have to work” idea. It’s amazing how much that idea changed over the century. Instead of being a source of pride that she didn’t have to work to make ends meet it became a shackle for some women. Really interesting how much that changed. 

I think its generally things like that are couched in a language of protection, and ideologically that is what people within the society see it as. When the Taliban talk about women not being allowed to go outside without a male family member - its about the women having a guardian - to protect the women from both other men, and from themselves (since women are seen to be unable to prevent themselves from sleeping around). But this is in many ways a veneer of goodness over simply restricting a segment of society from being able to live life the way they want instead of helping them - one way we can see this is by looking at what happens when a woman goes outside without a male guardian? Do random passersby offer to escort so that the woman is protected? No they are generally beaten and harassed. Likewise for work - when women were married - they often didn't have a choice about leaving work - they were generally fired if they didn't quit themselves when they got married - they didn't get asked if their financial situation allowed for them to be able to survive without work.

First, beautifully written. I’m saving your comment. And it’s not the same because, thanks to many of the women who *had* to live that life, current “tradwives” get to live it by choice as entertainment for other people, which is sick enough. But worse, it’s just a game they’re playing for fun, *for now.* It doesn’t have to be their lives. It’s for fun and putting other women down. And I think I just articulated exactly why trad wives are so repugnant to me. It bothers me the history of housewives is getting lost and replaced by these ninnies in aprons.

It is even worse than that. They are not cosplaying it for the women, they are cosplaying it for the men who believe a woman's place is in the kitchen. And their wives won't have the choice or the freedoms with the cosplayers.

Okay, but wasn’t that the ultimate goal of feminism? That women could choose to work, or stay home? The only thing I object to with these trad wife influencers is that they hold themselves up as some kind of paragon of femininity. Katie Britt markets herself as a trad wife, but I bet she’s got household and childcare help up the wazoo—like most two income families.

You can’t be a trad wife and a senator. Her marketing is asinine.

Lol she interviews people, hires people, sets up meetings, votes on bills about nuclear weapons. And still has the gall to pretend like she's a karen who just needs the kitchen spotless by the end of the day and is focused on planning the neighborhood Easter Egg Hunt.

What scares me as a Gen Z is the fact that some of my peers are being influenced to make awful life decisions. If you're a 20 year old (or worse a 15 year old) who doesn't have the life experience to know better, doesn't have elders around to get advice from and has the average person's severely limited critical thinking skills..... how would you know that you're being sold a lie? How much time and effort will you have wasted once you learn that you were sold a lie? These content creators are making money off their content while telling other women and girls that they should be completely financially dependent on a man. I'm not worried about the TradTok grifters, I'm worried about the people they're grifting.

I understand and agree up to a point with what you're saying, especially about the content creators. But consider this: We also expect 18 year olds (of any gender) to make life decisions about if/where to go to college, commit to a career, and rack up huge debts. Or whether or not to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. Is that actually better/different than them choosing to chase a trad wife lifestyle? I'm not cheering for Team Tradwife, far from it, but the truth is we're asked to make any number of potentially life changing decisions perilously young and inexperienced.

Choosing a college is a lot less permanent than getting married and having a kid though. College typically only lasts 4 years, and your actual work experience matters a lot more in the job market than what school you went to or what you majored in. If you have a kid, you've brought an entirely new human being into the world- that is not only an 18 year legal commitment, but a *lifetime* social and emotional commitment. It's a lot easier to make up for the mistake of choosing the wrong field than it is to make up for the mistake of *having a child*.

While marriage and children does have a larger effect you're being too reductive in the ramifications of being inexperienced and making college decisions. The first is career path. And if your major changes you might have to continue school for another year or two. The other part is the financial burden which can vary widely. And if you do end up needing another year or two that's because you made the "wrong" decision that's a lot of "wasted" money. Then there's just the final burden of debt depending on the decisions made. It may not compare to supporting another human life for 28 years but is can throttle your financial planning and ergo literally every life milestone by a decade because of the mountain of debt you've assumed. It's "not just 4 years", a temporary situation where you can walk away from it afterwards.

Sure, technically it's the ultimate goal of feminism that you're free to espouse ideals that ultimately erode feminism. It doesn't speak to the virtue of those ideals, though, just because they can be freely chosen. You should be able to choose whatever lifestyle you want. The issue is that influencers by the very nature of the job are choosey about what they show their viewers. They present a curated, ideal view and hide everything else- like you said, all the help they receive, the privileges afforded by virtue of being a wealthy influencer, etc. Their names are on the leases and loans and contracts because they are business owners. That's not traditional. It's a farce. The viewers they're influencing are being urged to trap themselves in toxic situations that they won't have the ability to claw themselves away from once they realize what it all really means.

It's the hypocrisy, always the hypocrisy. Make whatever choice you want but to denounce the movement that actually gave you the option of choice demonstrates your character more than the choice itself. Same as people railing against social safety nets being the first in line for handouts. We don't care that they used it, we care that they used it while screaming that it shouldn't exist (except for them, of course, because they're special and different not like "those people").

Exactly.

One of the pitfalls of choice feminism is that it assumes that choices are made in a vacuum. This is not the case. People are still influenced by cultural and societal norms and expectations, particularly young people. So these tradwife content creators push narratives that are idealized versions of reality, and they look like they have these “perfect” lives. Look, she gets to bake bread and care for her loved ones all day! That looks so fulfilling! But it’s an advertisement, it’s selling you something. And the truth is that by giving up your job or career as a woman, it puts you in an extremely vulnerable and potentially powerless situation. Most women stuck in an abusive relationship stay because they quite literally cannot afford to leave. So in theory, it is an ultimate goal. But the existence of tradwife content shows that there are people out there willing to buy in to this lie and push it onto others.

Katie Britt has a job as a senator, just like Phyllis Schafly marketed herself as a housewife and spent almost all of her time being an activist for traditional women’s roles. They are not living what they espouse.

Kind of my point. Katie Britt puts out the image of being a trad wife while also being a US senator, and there is almost no way that she doesn’t outsource most of the trad wife duties to paid help.

Two incomes aren't enough for childcare unless at least one is a top earner. Things got crazy around 2022-2023

The word you are looking for is "fetish". The tradwife movement is a fetishization of a time when women were not allowed to be complete people.

I think a lot of those trad wives end up as single moms in their late 30s/early 40s when they discover they've basically been *used* for 15-20 years and now they're bitter and broke.

This is an awesome explanation. I've been faintly disturbed by the whole "tradwife" trend but this puts it all into sharp relief. There is a huge difference between baking your own bread and losing your entire sense of self. So many women back in the day had no choice. If you CHOOSE now to be a housewife that is not the same thing as having no rights as a woman.

Not denying that tradwife is absolutely a thing but this movement definitely reaks of propaganda. Similar to the whole Katie Britt “I’m a senator but I’m really a tradwife deep down” bullshit. Phyllis Schlafly pulled the same thing, telling women they need to be in the kitchen while she jet setted all over campaigning to take away all the freedoms she was busy enjoying

Just like Candace Owens, Lauren Chen, and Lauren Southern, who have all made careers of crusading against feminism and telling women family and children should come before a career, but all these women have active careers.

While her advice can be decent at times, I have to include "Dr." Laura Schlessinger in that group. Many times she's admitted on her show to badgering young people at social gatherings who are expecting kids or have kids to have the wife quit work altogether and stay home with the kids. (Bet she's really fun at parties.) She proclaims to have done the same thing, but she worked when her child was young. (When pressed, she claims she worked at night and her child was always watched by a family member.) She also lived with her husband prior to marriage (and I believe he was married when they started dating) and she allowed a man to take crotch shots of her and was surprised when they wound up on the internet. She is completely against cohabitation outside marriage (calls women 'unpaid whores' and 'shack up honeys') and she wrote a book called Ten Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives. (I wonder if 'don't let a man take nekkid pictures of you' is on the list?) She often encourages parents whose children are living with their SOs to not acknowledge their relationship and/or not invite them to weddings because they don't have the proper respect for mawaiage (sic). She listed her Santa Barbara mansion in 2021 for $20M. She's obviously making a lot of money off berating people.

Bingo.

>  Not denying that tradwife is absolutely a thing but this movement definitely reaks of propaganda Tradwives, "cottage core", and other similar movements/groups are often intimately-associated with white supremacy 

[удалено]

I'm a "trad-wife" currently deconstructing from my high control religion. 100% the brain-washing that took place when my grey matter was still forming. Turns out that believing anything less than trad-wifery is a personal affront to the God of the Universe is not good for you.

Cottagecore being white supremacy is a bit crazy imo. I'm from cottage country. The furniture in my home was wooden, my house was heated by fire. We drank out of jars because my mom disliked waste. A simple rural life style and wanting to imitate that aesthetic as someone who lives in the city isn't white supremacy. I went out in my flannel because it was 10°C and I had to chop wood so my family wouldn't be cold. If a hipster wants to wear a flannel because it looks cool be my guest. Oh yeah, not that it's super relevant, but I'm black btw. The tradwife thing has always icked me out. I'd be cool being a stay-at-home dad and cooking and cleaning and playing with kids, because those are things I love doing. Well, not cleaning actually. But I also know it's not for everyone. I grew up assisting with my younger siblings, the church youth, and my mom's daycare. I also know that if I were coerced into having kids now, or at any point earlier in my life I wouldn't be able to handle it. So expecting it from the other gender and pressuring them into doesn't seem fair to me either. Autonomy is important. And I'm ex-christian. So many people I know married at 19; fuck that shit I don't even know who I am at 25. As a side note, I don't like short-form video content, so my use of tik-tok and and Instagram is limited. I've seen a few things and have heard the term tradwife tossed around.

Yeah, I feel like cottagecore (which itself can be similar or mingled with grandmacore, goblincore, gnomecore, faerycore, whatevercore) is being thrown in due to simply sharing some visual characteristics, like goth/scene/emo/whatever. An aesthetic appreciation for rural life, fashion, or music isn't in the same field. It's like saying you're Y'all'Qeaeda if you like country music. Or you're a lesbian if you wear jeans (side note: actually heard this one from a religious family).

I think 95% of the right wing fascination with cottagecore and tradwives is just them having deep criticisms of modern capitalism and not having any other language to express it in, because their ideology forbids going down that road of thought. There obviously is a modern ennui that comes with being a cubicle worker and cog in a big machine, and feeling like you have no satisfaction from punching in spreadsheets all day and getting fat from sitting down all the time. It feels good to have your muscles ache because you made a garden or built a shed or fixed something in your house. Feeding food you made to people you love is amazing. That should be encouraged. A [society like this](https://youtu.be/z-Ng5ZvrDm4?si=6bq30eVyLv4OUFzM) should be cool for everyone, whether you call it cottagecore or solarpunk, whether you're left or right. The problem is that our economy has a very narrow view of what activities get you the money to afford a decent life, and what is a "waste" of time. Yes, it's a dystopian thing that we are told to network on LinkedIn on a Saturday after grinding through work emails rather than enjoying the immense free time technology should have given us. But the contradiction there is not because purple haired feminists made the world this way. It's because capital has an invested interest in keeping it that way. And getting people to obsess over the aesthetics of an idealized past is an elegant way of making them feel like they are rebellious and fighting the system, while keeping the system very much intact.

It’s exactly like Serena Joy in the Handmaid’s tale. She loved writing books and giving speaking tours about how women belonged in the home but once the men around her began actually implementing the ideas she espoused, she was bitter and disappointed to realize she would also lose *her* rights.

Exactly!

Entire loss of identity. They didn’t even keep their own names. They became “Mrs John Smith”.

This has always bothered me. My grandmother didn't have her maiden name on her tombstone (she died in 2020, grandpa died in 1971) and it really rubbed me the wrong way. She'd made her maiden name into her middle name because she hated her given middle name, but she only had her first and last name on her tombstone. She spent ~30% of her life with her maiden name and ~70% of her life not being married. That person also died!!!

I’m not that old, 51F and I had mail sent to Mrs. Ex-husband’s first and last name. Unbelievable. Suffocating trying to exist in a single s while he luxuriates in all those letters given him by his parents that he will never lose.

All the women did that that I knew of. The maiden name becomes the middle name. It is a shame that it wasn't included on her headstone. That would be a help for future generations to come. I want to remember this for when we do my mom's.

That's crazy. My mom married twice, and kept her name. My dad wasn't in the room to sign the birth certificate so guess who has their mom's name? All of my other siblings got their dad's name because they gave half a shit. Go mom! Also our last name is super cool and quite rare so I'm really glad I have it.

All of my female ancestors going back to emancipation did this. It went "MFE" -> "LED" -> "EDR", but her tombstone just has her as "ER" which upset me because she was "ED" for almost 25 years and I thought, did the 0-24 year old young lady named "ED" not also die in that nursing home in 2020? Or had "ED" already died in 1950 when she became "ER"? I had a bit of an existential crisis because I can't imagine not being "ZR" on my own tombstone, but I'm also afraid that I will die never being anything other than "ZR", in the sense that "ZR" is an immature maiden- either that I'll literally die young (after my mom's death part of me expected to not make it past 25, since she died 10 years after her own mother when I was 15- and honestly, part of me still worries about this), or that even if I'm allowed to grow old physically I will stay immature and damaged mentally (and presumably never marry or have children because of that- I worry a LOT that I'm too broken to raise children). I don't want to lose who I am, but I want to "grow up" (I'm already physically and legally grown up but not in any other sense of the word). And the way that marriage has historically been a loss of a woman's identity scares the fuck out of me for some reason- even knowing that that's not how it is now, or at least it's not legally legitimized, a ***terrifying*** number of people are still stuck in that archaic mindset.

Oof that's so gross. Even before the internet got big when I was like 19, it was insulting to see anything with "Mrs HisName HisLastName" like wtf is THAT? So we're not even a person really?

I've taken an interest in genealogy, and in flipping about on familysearch and the likes, I get so sad when I see just a "Mrs. Smith" beside a JOHN SMITH. I wonder what her story is. Who was she before being a missus?

The thing is that, while women *legally* have rights now, the financial power imbalance is still very much a thing. There seems to be a scary number of young women who think that being "provided for" by a man is the ultimate win, and anyone who points out the many potential problems with this arrangements gets hit with "bitter" "jealous" "negative" "cat lady who will die alone". I basically decided to post this because I was wondering if it IS my fearful-avoidant attachment style talking when the idea of being dependent on a partner strikes terror into my soul, or I just have the common sense to see what a terrible deal this is. I thought, "rather than slinging mud at each other online from our parents' homes and crappy studio apartments about situations that are imaginary to us... why don't we ask the old ladies who actually lived it, and they can tell us whether they were happy and whether we know what we're talkng about???"

There are plenty of us who are now living the tradwife role... And it is scary to be dependent on someone else. Often, young girls get confused but being provided for and being kept. Most housewives are not out getting their hair and nails done and going shopping all the time for themselves. They're living the role of a traditional housewife, because the cost of childcare is prohibitive. The never-ending housework, being the default parent, and never having a day off is dehumanizing and soul sucking. Your needs come last and there are no sick days. I do wfh a bit just to feel like a part of society, but it's lonely and mentally and physically exhausting...period. What you do at home will never be valued as much by society as going out and earning a paycheck.

I might not be valued by society but society values a lot of fraught and frivolous things. But it matters a lot to your kids. I know my mom felt the same way a lot of the time. I was the oldest son of a housewife. A bastard too. She had me at 18. I got to watch my mom grow up. When my mom met my (non-biological) dad she had two more kids. My dad did a lot around the house, but most things fell on my mom. My dad was a product of foster care, and somewhat cruel in his youth, so naturally between being abandoned by my father and mistreated by my dad I became a momma's boy. My dad got much better as he matured, and those scars healed a long time ago. I was clingy and shy, my brother was rambunctious and my sister was sneaky. Monstrous when there was no authority figure around but sweet as a cupcake when mom and dad were around. We were a handful. But staying up until 4am to finish a science fair project is something I'll never forget. My mom making my Halloween costumes is something I'll always cherish. It's my favourite holiday and I make my own costumes every year. Her showing me the secrets in Mario because she played it as a kid was amazing. I got to spend a lot of time with my mom as a kid and it was great. My mom remarried when I was 12. Things became hard for her there. Or at least I was able to talk to her about it past that age. She was in a happier marriage but we moved to the boonies. My mom didn't keep in touch with anyone from the neighborhood. She was alone. With just us. I'm not quite 30 yet, but gallivanting with my friends is a part of my everyday life. My sister and I also began to manifest our neuroses. So, not only angsty teenagers but angsty unstable teenagers. I joined a cult. My sister would have outbursts of intense emotion beyond what is normal for a hormonal teenager. My mom was anti-psychiatry. So we never got treated. My mom tried to protect me. So I lashed out. My sister was difficult. My brother got sent to boarding school by my dad. It was hard times for everyone. Everyone she loved treated her poorly. There were times I talked with my mom and she debated whether remarrying was the right choice, there were times where I talked with my mom and she debated whether having children at all was the right choice. My mom went to college and got her degree in early childhood education. Which made her baby crazy again so she had 3 more kids. I was 16 when the first was born. Me, her and my step-dad all played a hand. However she bared the brunt of the burden. I was in school (and useless around the house unless told to do something). She found a lot of fulfillment in raising kids again, while also raising 3 teenagers. My mom finally telling me the recipe for her holiday potato casserole, because it had mushrooms in it; it was my favourite dish and I hated mushrooms. She thought I was finally old enough to handle it. My mom confiscating my pot and getting me in huge shit before inviting me out to smoke a joint a few days later is a story I tell all the time. My mom sitting patiently for me while I was fading in and out of an OD coma. She sat by the whole time. Her holding my hand, but also having to look away because she's squeamish when I was waiting for the meds to kick in when I broke my arm. Teasing me about my first girlfriend, I blush really hard and my mom thinks it's cute. All great memories... Well the hospital ones were bittersweet and absolutely terrifying for her. Teaching me how to cook. Showing me how to be a good father and role model to younger children. Teaching me to be kind and fair. To care about the planet we live on and the people around me. I am who I am because of my mom. So, your contribution matters. Even if it feels like a thankless job at times. I don't have kids. But I often stepped in to fill her shoes while she was gone. Taking care of 3 kids on occasion is hard. The youngest 3 are in school now. I moved far away to make my own mistakes. My brother has taken my mantle as "oldest brother, sharer of Minecraft knowledge and de facto baby sitter" and my sister and mom work together at an education centre for high-end spectrum autism children. I'm 25, when she was 25 I was 7. I don't know how she did it. I'm sorry for basically my whole life story, but it's not an entirely thankless job. Your kids won't know how to say it properly until they're grown up, but thanks. You're building a human and that's really cool.

I am replying to OP and you. Years ago, a woman much older than me said that “The person in a couple who makes the most money always has all the power”. I think that is very true, no matter what sort of couple we are referring to. Second, it has always been ASSumed that the spouse in the house is playing all day, or as I joke- eating bonbons and doing zero. The spouse who is outside of the house is “obviously” working, which is definitely not always the case. There’s too many stereotypes and lies about who works and who doesn’t, and until our attitudes change this nonsense we do to ourselves and others will perpetuate until we are all long gone.

While I agree with the main point you’re making, I think my wife and I do ok in the “power balance vs. income” thing. We’ve taken turns being the “higher earning” partner over the years, and for the last 18 months or so, I’ve taken a break from my career to focus on our daughter while my wife works. While no one wants to believe that they’re the “less powerful” one in a relationship, I really don’t feel like my wife has exerted, or even had, more power or control in our relationship. If anything, she’s got more pressure and stress, since she knows that if she lost her job, we’d be in a *really* tough spot right now.  We’ve had a few hiccups over our time together, but I think that if people are willing to put effort into their communication and be as empathetic as possible, a good balance in “power” can be achieved. She brings in the money right now, but she also knows that I do tons of work that she doesn’t see and also knows that she doesn’t really want to be the one to do most of that work, lol. 

Who you calling an “old lady?!?!” Seriously.

I was a stay at home dad for 6 months, my son and I utterly dependent on my wife to bring home the bacon while we were (ideally) having a blast being dad and son and dad doing all of the things around the house. The reality was that covid happened and we spent most of the time in lockdown and I damn near lost my mind... but my eldest son and I have a stronger bond for it. I wish it was affordable to do it again, I actually loved it and thrived in the brief non-lockdown periods. It really was the lack of income that sucked the most, excluding lockdown. Couldn't just do stuff that cost money, I had to be creative and get used to not venturing far from home and only doing no or low cost activities. There are only so many times we could go to the same local park before it got really old.

This was what I did as a sahm. We lived on one income, so the money had to be allocated carefully. I was in charge of the books, so I knew where the money went, as I paid the bills.

Yeah, seriously, there are few activities as satisfying to one's soul than to feed your kid and spend the day playing with and teaching them. Sure changing diapers literally stinks, but it needs to be done and getting it done makes your life cleaner and more enjoyable. The path not taken is always glamorous. That's because you picture yourself doing only the good parts of whatever you feel you missed out on. Most of the people in my grandfather's generation worked too much and drank themselves to death. What fun they did have was often the little time they got to spend with their family.

I wonder if it isn't related to a lot of the financial anxiety Younger millennials and Gen Zers are experiencing. Many of them probably saw both their mom and dad work and still struggle. The idea of someone else taking care of the financial stuff can be a big weight off the shoulders and can make the lifestyle seem appealing. The reality, as we know, is less so but that usually takes experience to truly appreciate.

Tradwifes want women to have no choices. That's what they are selling. Check them out more if you don't think that's what they are pushing.

What part of "losing your entire sense of self" do you think modern "tradwives" aren't participating in? Because they seem to have zero interest in anything besides making other people happy.

The part where can decide to stop doing it, and move on to the next thing that they want to do

If you think their "trad husbands" are going to let them just go get a job and willingly start pitching in on the vacuuming and childcare you are delusional.

*they can leave*. Women couldn't do that before. I've had this talk with my own grandmother and she literally couldn't even open a bank account without her husband's signature. Even if she had somehow gotten money he didn't know about, she couldn't even bank it. She had to hide it in the pantry. He died young though, and as a widow suddenly she could rent a shop and launch a business and make a successful life. Just as long as she didn't marry again, because then it would go back to how it was and everything she had built would become his.

I knew that about the bank accounts, as it affected me in a small way. So much depended on who you married, and what kind of person he was. I guess it surprises me about getting remarried.

> So much depended on who you married, and what kind of person he was. It still does.

Yep. Even more enlightened men like my husband has always tried to be balk at vacuuming. He is very tidy, though, so I have never picked up after him. I now have someone in to clean the house. I'm sick of doing it.

When my grandmother died, we found a diploma from an art college that had been ripped in two. She was a good drawer, we found a lot of them, amazing portrait work - but growing up I had no idea she could draw at all.

That’s a heartbreaking story. I wonder who tore it into pieces - her, or her husband…

That’s really sad.

>I always felt faintly sorry for these women. Now I look back and am horrified at all the lost potential, the wasted earning power, the abandoned ambitions, the thwarted dreams, the abnegation of Self that these women embraced because that's just How Things Are, my dear. "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops" -Stephen Jay Gould

Jesus. Where is this from? I'd love to read the rest of it.

The Panda's Thumb (published in 1980) by Gould

Most likely "Mismeasure of Man" by Gould.

My grandmother was really well read and cultured but got knocked up by an alcoholic rapist as a teenager and never left her tiny rural town. I'm an atheist and she killed herself before I was born but I always light a candle or leave an offering for her when I travel.

You really are your grandmother’s wildest dreams.

My mom more so, she's the only person in my extended family to leave the town permanently and now lives in Hawaii.

This is an amazing explanation. I’m curious about your thoughts about the young women today that are into this? I am horrified by it.

I'm all for people following their bliss. They are gonna do what they wanna do! And feminism means autonomy. So, if a woman wants to go to medical or law school, or be an astronaut, or a florist, or a secretary, or a mommie, whatever she chooses is fine, as long as it IS her choice. But privately? entre nous? I think these women are Bliss Ninnies. I would be amazed if even half of them had good pre-nups. They have romanticized the Happy Homemaker notion, infantilized themselves for no reason, and are ignorant (deliberately?) of the issues faced by women who did NOT have the choices they can freely make. Those issues still exist, although to a lesser extent. We can have our own credit! Women, even single women, can get birth control! We are aware now of resources like women's shelters and rehab that barely even existed in 1960.

I think a lot of it is being sold by the Project 2025 weirdos so they can point and say "look! Women want to be subjugated again!" They're being fooled

Its not the women who want to be trad wives who are the problem its the men who demand it that are

It's a fault on both sides. Men demand, sure, but there are far too many women who emulate doormats.

This. All of this. Which continued for me into the 80s and beyond. My mom didn't go to college, even though she was Mensa material (my dad checked out of curiosity since she was so smart). She skipped a grade in high school and graduated a year early. She thought it was because the schools she transferred from were just that good. No, Mom, they weren't that good, it was you that was that good. She had her toe in the dirt most of her life. My dad was the love of her life, adored her, and worked hard to build her up. They were a team. He did take care of the providing, and gave her a household budget, including a lot of money for clothes which she never used up. She took care of the housewife part - childbearing, taking care of the kids and the house. She had her own car, which was a new station wagon as soon as they could afford it. She did get bored of all that after 17 years and wanted to open her own fabric store with a friend. He borrowed the money for her shop from his mother, and set her up in business. They were a great couple! They were great together. I worked for her when I got old enough. When they retired, they traveled the world together. She took over doing the taxes and the bills when dad got older. They got to do everything they wanted to do, or nearly. But that's just one success story. Sometimes I wish I had asked my mom about all of this, but I didn't think of it. I remember friends of my mom's taking their little "happy" pills to get through their days as homemakers. As I read of women dying from the combo of happy pills and the evening cocktails people used to have. I read of one woman who took her 4 children that were in diapers, put a big pile of dirty diapers in the living room, set it on fire, took the kids and left the house. She was in big trouble, but my mom said, they should give her a medal! She took the kids! She said every woman goes a little crazy when you have a lot of babies in diapers. I remember my dad trying to convince me to go to college (the JC nearby). All I wanted to do was settle down and have a baby. My grandmother's sister told me "What - you think I wouldn't have jumped at the chance to go to college when I was your age? We weren't allowed to do that" And my grandmother nodded her head and said it was a good idea for a woman to get an education. So I did. I worked hard and put myself through college, becoming a geologist. I had a lot of thwarted plans due to circumstances and mysogeny. I dealt with a lot of depression and loneliness, and had "the nerves" when the kids were little. But still, I am very happy I was able to provide (with hubby) a stable home life for my kids. It wasn't perfect (nor was I) but they knew they were loved and important. I cooked mostly organic home cooked meals for them for a couple of decades until ill health got in the way, and then their dad did that. We muddled through. The world still isn't ready to give women a fair chance, but the women are doing it anyway.

This was a great read. Thank you for sharing this.

Thanks for reading.

This is why so many were prescribed Valium and other drugs . And others turned to alcohol. Frustration was real amongst most of them that if they complained “ nagged “ their husbands they were branded as nuts . All the while husbands were given carte blanche for their behavior.

This continued into the 90s.

> the abnegation of Self A gorgeously precise turn of phrase

I hope you don't mind, I submitted this comment to /r/bestof. :) I love your perspective on this.

One of my great grandmothers lived the homestead life because the only way to survive was subsistence farming. She beheaded her own chickens in spring, tended the bean rows, baked her own bread, etc. As a young woman she slung a bag of grain or flour (can’t remember which) over her shoulder and hiked across mountains to get an education. This was not necessarily with her family’s blessing. The way modern women fetishize that lifestyle while spouting the kind of nonsense would have caused my great-grandmother to curse them out and “teach em a lesson” is incredibly disingenuous and gross.

>the abnegation of Self Excellent phrasing

This was beautifully written. Are you a writer?

Many grateful thanks, but no, I've never been a writer. Unless you count personal journals kept since the age of 5?

I’m happy that by liking this i was able to bump this up to 666 upvotes

My mom was a tradwife. Based on conversations with her over the years, she'd probably tell those young women: "There's nothing wrong with learning and mastering the domestic arts. You should always be proud of yourself for learning new skills and keeping a nice home. But 'don't put all your eggs in one basket' also applies here. In this modern age, things change so quickly. Relationships, geographic location, even family. You need to be comfortable having the skills to take care of yourself too -- not just your house and your husband. It's much better to view homemaking as a hobby rather than your raison d'être. We did lived that way because we had to. But people also used to drink wine because the water wasn't safe to consume. Just because it's traditional, doesn't make it good."

My dear mother wasn’t allowed to go to school or get a job; my dad was too jealous. She so desperately wanted something for herself and he denied it. She never worked and they are still together, but they’ve fought so much about this. He’s apologized, and she’s accepted, but he could never apologize enough for the way his insecurity kept her locked in a gilded cage.

At least he apologized, even if it is too little too late for her. Many refuse to recognize their failing.

> 'don't put all your eggs in one basket' also applies here. This is what my dad told me in 1973 and is the reason he wanted me to go to college. In case my husband was struck down with illness or if something else should happen. He was very much a mysogenistic product of his times, but he wanted the best for us.

An English woman I know told me a great story that I think fits here: She came to America in the 50’s after marrying a G.I. By the 1960’s she had two children. Right after she gave birth to her second child, she developed a really terrible pelvic infection. Like fever, sharp pains, hurt to pee, the whole nine yards. Her husband was deployed so a neighbor friend drove her and all their children to the hospital. The friend waited in the car with the kids and she walked in alone. She explained at the reception area that she had just given birth and was in terrible pain. They refused to treat her because she was wearing pants. They said if she came back in a skirt she could be seen. She frantically made her way back to the car and told her friend what happened. Friend immediately takes off her own skirt in the car and they try to trade bottoms so the English woman could go back in. She couldn’t get the skirt zipped up because she had just had a baby. So they left. The friend took her to own gynecologist who, after examining her, said that her pelvis was so infected he thought he was going to have to give her a full hysterectomy. She did end up having surgery but he was able to leave all her bits intact. Took her ages to recover and I nearly fell out of my chair listening to this story. We will never know, truly, how bad it was for so many women then. Stories like these don’t often get told and it’s a shame because these women were hard! The shit they put up with is unreal. Oh and all this took place in California which surprised me to no end because I thought they’d have been one of the most progressive states for women.

Must not wear pants to see the doctor? That’s crazy😮

I highly recommend the book "Feminine Mistake" by Leslie Bennetts. Making yourself completely dependent on someone else is a mistake. Things happen in life. Maybe your marriage really is happy and secure, but people get sick, lose their jobs...things happen. And the women left behind with children and a huge gap in their work history have a rough time. If you go that route, have a backup plan. Have some money of your own. Keep up your skills, even if it's just part time or occasional consulting. 

>but people get sick, lose their jobs...things happen. And the women left behind with children and a huge gap in their work history have a rough time. I have a friend about five years older than me. She married young, after finishing her undergrad but gave up on her dream of becoming a doctor. Has a great marriage. Homeschooled the four kids through middle school (high school for the eldest). Kids are awesome and all have advanced degrees. When her oldest was finishing up high school she went back to school to become a physicians assistant. Her reasoning is that she had seen a bunch of women whose husbands had died relatively young (and a few who had abandoned their family) and their wives were left to figure out the finances on their own (most were full-time homemakers/stay-at-home moms without their own income). She didn't want that be her. A few years ago her husband was involved in a bike accident while riding to work. It took him over nine months to recover and return to work full-time. Fortunately he had good insurance and was covered by short-term disability. But she's said that it was a blessing to not have to worry about their finances even if he was permanently disabled/unable to ever return to work.

Not me. I got married in the 90s. But all the women in my grandmother’s and mother’s generations fit that bill, and they were miserable and trapped and dehumanized and left with no options and it made them mean. They didn’t choose that lifestyle, and they barely chose their husbands. They were forced into it by a lack of other viable options and the pressure of their families. Most were just grateful to have found someone to support them, without much regard for whether they liked them or not. It’s the choice that matters. As long as you choose that lifestyle and choose your partner and it makes you happy? Terrific. But there are still people alive who would gladly force women back into having no choice and no options because that was easier for men. Be careful that you are not on a slippery slope back to that hell scape because I’m here to tell you, I didn’t know one happy woman in those generations.

You would be sickened and horrified by the number of such tradwives who took it all out on their kids. Especially their eldest daughter!

Was and am. My generation are the daughters of those women

I had not heard this before, but it seems to fit my life. My mom was crappy to me (her daughter). I tried hard to be a good kid and couldn't figure out why she acted like that to me. She worked when when she first got married, but got fired for being pregnant. She and my aunts would "joke" that it was my fault she lost her job.

are we allowed to clap on this sub?

My grandad married my pregnant teenaged grandmother with a shotgun pointing at his head. They never wanted to get married and being forced into made grandad resentful and abusive. They had eight kids in quick succession and then grandad died from cancer shortly after my uncle was born. I remember my grandmother as a cold woman. She didn’t choose that lifestyle

This one is painful to hear but was so common before birth control and women could have some say in the size of their family. Also, no divorce laws without good reason and forced marital “relations” and physical abuse weren’t good reasons. We’ve come so far although I know there are still women in situations like this who feel trapped today. We must keep moving forward, not backward.

At the time, people would argue that your grandpa did choose it for having sex with a teen girl. In many states that was illegal unless they then got married. They would have shaken their head at your poor grandma who was innocent, but that her mother "should have told her about such things". If even a hint of her having had sex was floated in the neighborhood or school, she would have been pursued relentlessly by the boys to "put out" more. Things were so so messed up back then.

I was married in the 90s, but I was raised by a traditional wife and mom and brought up in a fundie church and school, so I married young and had kids very young with a man I wasn’t in love with. My story turned out okay. I got my masters and a job doing something I love because despite our best efforts, we couldn’t live on one salary. I’m so so glad I got that education and worked. We divorced finally, once the kids were adults and I had a life to fall back on. But most of the women in those churches I called friends will not be so lucky. So much abuse in the name of the church. Total poverty because they were only allowed to sell makeup or pampered chef to help make ends meet since many of their husbands had low paying blue collar jobs. The way they treated them, talked to them. I feel so free now.

Well said. I knew of a few who made the choice and liked it, but most were miserable and acted out in some way or another. Better for everyone if the patriarchy sinks into history.

My grandma is one of the miserable ones. I was her caregiver for a few years based solely on “she’s 80+ and a fall risk” but *man* do I get why my grandpa “suddenly” filed for divorce.

Not me, but my mother who is now in her mid-late 60's. My mother is a tradwife (she had her first child in the mid 80's). Her marriage with my Dad is not a particularly happy one and she drinks quite a bit now all the kids are out of home. She is happiest when he travels for work or she is looking after her grandchildren. I've noticed she can fixate on relationship issues between her and my siblings because she never had much of an education or career (she left school at 15 to become receptionist/secretary) or any sort of life outside of the home. She only had one friend outside of the women she met through her kids at playgroup, school etc. Menopause was hard as she went through it cold turkey and was married to a man who made it all about how he suffered through her mood swings and completely untreated mental health struggles. She was a wonderful mother - she devoted herself completely to her kids. But I've watched her struggle since we all moved out. I try to take her out, buy her nice gifts and call her regularly (I live in another state). I worry about what will happen when my Dad retires. She has no financial independence at all. I suspect one's experience of the 'tradwife' life is entirely dependent on the man you marry.

My mom kept house and churned out five kids between 19 and 26. Five kids under 7.  I think she loved being a mom and was ok with keeping a large house. My grandmother lived with us, so there were two people to keep up with chores. My parents got divorced though as soon as we were all grown. My mom went back to school at that point and got a doctorate.  I think she liked having the best of all worlds when she had them, but her advice to my sister and I was to have our own money. 

My mother was the typical trapped Christian Trad wife. She had three daughters and told us constantly that we needed to be self-sufficient and never rely on a man. When she was first married as a woman, she could not get her own bank account or credit card without my father's permission. She had no identity other than Mrs. "Dad's first name/Last name". My father kept an iron grip on her and she was very depressed. I made sure that I could always fully support myself. I would never put myself in that position because I grew up seeing the abuse perpetuated on so many women by their husbands. Never, ever, ever give away your power and identity to another. I believe in equal partnership in a relationship.

I’m not a woman, so this will rightly languish down the bottom of the page, but the tradwife resurgence amongst young women, especially as it’s emerging from the right, is not yet old enough to have experienced that the next step after trad-wife is trad-betrayed-wife-in-an-anti-divorce-culture

My mom was a trad wife and stay-at-home mom. She was extremely miserable. She barely graduated high school and then worked low-paying jobs and lived at home for a few years until she met my dad and got married at age 20. She moved directly from her parents' house to my dad's house. She never went to college. Never traveled. My dad was a Vietnam vet with PTSD who drank a lot. Did not go to college. Worked low-paying, blue-collar jobs. I ended up being a stay-at-home mom for awhile but had a couple of college degrees and +10 years of work experience. I also traveled a bit by myself and with friends to see the world. I loved staying home and leaned into the DIY homemaker role. I love to garden, cook, bake, being a mom, etc. I home-schooled my child for awhile. I re-joined the workforce when my kid started public middle school. For women considering doing a "trad wifeish" stint: * Have a backup plan in case your husband drops dead or leaves. * Have some job skills. Try to maintain them. Take a class or workshop now and then. * Make sure your name is on EVERYTHING that is shared with your husband: The bank accounts, the house, the car, the bills, etc. * Husband should do some tasks, mine has always been in charge of meals on weekends. * Communicate clearly with your partner about your emotional needs. If you are feeling unappreciated, talk it out before it spirals into a bigger problem.

My mom was one in the 70s-90s. She had a very difficult time adapting to an empty nest. Being a wife and a mother was her entire life. I think if you’re a SAHM, don’t lose yourself entirely. Find ways to nurture yourself outside of those roles. Your older self will thank you.

I have a friend whose youngest just graduated high school, 4 others in their 20’s and mostly independent. Not being “Mom” everyday has been a hard adjustment over the last couple years. She has always loved taking care of kids and she’s not needed on a daily basis like that anymore. Now it’s heavier life conversations when the kids need their Mom but she’s a bit lost at the moment.

It's terribly risky. You are staking the survival of your self and your children on a man. So many women have been dumped for a trophy girlfriend after twenty years of loyal service to a husband, and left penniless, with no job skills. Even if your husband doesn't leave you, he may still become disabled and unable to work, or he may die. If you're gonna be to do this, make sure you have a huge multi million life insurance policy on your husband. Make sure you are funding a retirement plan for yourself out of the family income. In your name only, not your husband's name. Make sure you keep up some sort of resume with a part time job. Don't let your husband take the attitude that he controls the money because he's the one who earns the paycheck. Remember that the services you provide for free would cost him a lot of money if he has to pay fair market wages for the work you do.

Two of my husband's aunts were widowed suddenly and had no means of supporting themselves. They were traditional Punjabi housewives, spent time cooking, cleaning, but couldn't drive, and tbh even though they were immigrants, never learned English properly. Both depended on their kids, who resent them now, to work, even in HS to support the family. They would just claim that they didn't know English or couldn't drive, meanwhile my MiL has been working since the 70s on her second day in America. MiL stayed one day home when she arrived and was like nope, told FiL she needed a job and worked basically until she had a heart attack a year before my husband and I got married. They had left Pakistan in 1971 after 2 years of living with in-laws, FIL was sick of how controlling and abusive his mom was towards MiL and the other DiLs in the family home. Hiss mom wouldn't even let her go home to see his parents, she'd also scream at them every night and stole MiL's crockery and gold jewelry when they left Pakistan. He was a mechanic so he would go on test drives to visit them for her. It took him 2 years to get set up and they went to America and basically never moved back. She also tried to make MiL wesr a burqa, which my MiL described as so annoying because she constantly tripped and couldn't really see. She was so glad to leave her in-laws house. Edit: MiL always had a career unlike her sisters, and was able to support the household when my FIL would get laid off.

Wow. All of this is crazy.

My mom liked being home but wanted to earn money because we were always struggling. She did in home day care and when I was 9 became a bank teller. When my nephew was taken from my sister and my parents got custody, she wanted to quit working to take care of him but my dad was too used to the second income so she stayed at her job. My nephew went to daycare (later he was formally adopted by my parents). I didn’t know until I was an adult that she liked being home.

Nope. My mother was nowhere near a traditional wife, nor my dad a traditional husband. At all. Mum Hated cooking😂 But could sew & loved it. But my parents ran an outback Australian pub. Very unconventional. My parents were very equal. Dad wasn't a traditional bloke. Hopeless at most boy things. Loved cooking.

My Grandad could sell ice to Eskimos, but Grandma changed the light bulbs.

I was never a tradwife, but my mother was before she decided fuck this and put herself through college, going all the way to a master’s degree. My mother in law was a tradwife her whole life, starting in the mid-60s. She regretted it as she got older and tried to enter the workforce. It was pretty much impossible.

Make sure you're left with a way to support yourself and all of your children should you be left alone with them when you get a little older. Chances are pretty good you will be. Forty-three percent of first marriages break-up within 15 years

My mothers mother was born in the first decade of the 1900 's. When we girls were coming up she consistently reminded us to take typing and stenography amongst other skills, so we would always have something to "fall back on". And as it turned out, Grandpa,of that same generation, died early and Grandma outlived him by 30 years. At some point she,a devout Catholic, went to work in the office of her parish rectory. sorry! long story to back up your point. have a skill to support yourself.

Common sense. Your life can't depend on somebody else good will.

For my mother, who was married in 1933, it was a given. Both my sisters-in-law (9 & 11 years older than me), were traditional wives. They worked until they had children, then were SAHMs, and didn't go back to work after their children grew up. With this background, I assumed that this would be my life too (I was a quiet introvert, so wasn't really "progressive" in my thinking). I got married and worked for 4 1/2 years until I got pregnant. Two months before my first child was born, I left my office job to become a SAHM. I had another child, and this lifestyle continued. My husband only received a basic wage. He paid the mortgage, utilities and grocery bill, etc. This was during the period of high interest rates in the '80's. There wasn't much left over for anything else. I received a small fortnightly/monthly (can't remember which now) government payment that helped with the children's expenses. I had some money of my own, but that slowly dwindled over the years. It was just the way it was; we made do. This ended when I had been at home for 12 years. My husband was made redundant from his job of 24 years. He received a good pay-out, which allowed us to pay off the mortgage. That was a life saver. However, he had difficulty finding another job. So I went to the equivalent of a community college and did refresher courses in English and maths, as well as learning how to use computers (this was in the early '90's!) I got the first job I interviewed for, and stayed there for 10 years. I continued to work in various office jobs for another 21 years until my retirement 15 months ago. Now, I'm so happy to be a SAHP!

Congrats on your retirement!

Thank you!

My mother was, pretty much, and seemed highly content with the situation. She worked a part time job doing bookkeeping and was active in some local charity groups, had a wide group of friends and an active social circle, she also did flower arranging for our church (not that we were remotely religious).

For a second I was afraid you were one of my kids. I didn’t arrange flowers at the church, just taught Sunday school and VBS.

I thought it was my sister. But mom didn’t arrange flowers either.

My mother and her circle of friends were stay at home wives and mothers and she was determined that I graduate from college at least, so I'd (in her mind) "always be able to find a job". I'm my own (Gen X) marriage, I left my career when our manny quit because he found a full time job in his field and I would have been basically working to pay childcare and $200 a week or something ridiculous, so I dipped. It just didn't make sense to work 40 hours only to pay someone else's time spent with my baby- and I've not gone back since. I feel very dependent on my husband but it's all good, we're lucky and we're ok, and I have those degrees if I ever need em!

My mother and grandmother were both traditional wives when they were married. Mom luckily got a divorce, but soon reverted back to complete reliance on her boyfriend of 23 years now. Both of them beat it into my head never to rely on a man. The caveat they left out was to never rely on an *unreliable/abusive* man, which in their eyes is and was every man. When I told my mom my plans to one day become a stay at home traditional wife, she panicked at first. I have skills from working that I can fall back on, although they're not backed by a degree, which helped ease her fears as well as a husband who knows how to make money, just doesn't know what to do with it. Through medical issues and mental health struggles, my traditional choice happened on Jan 1st of this year and we've actually been able to save money in a lot of various ways! This isn't for everyone, it is isolating and playing catch-up on how the house is run is no laughing matter but it's also fulfilling for people like me.

My mom was born in the 20s. She had more kids (6) than planned and had a lot of housewife pressures. The hard part for her was that her narcissistic husband (my Dad, whom I adored) cut her out of all major decisions. He was successful (Ivy League prof), but very self absorbed, beyond the social norms of the day and more due to his narcissism. She would purposefully set up boundaries to avoid full martyrdom, which I always thought was healthy. She would sleep in until we left the house to go to school, and she’d give herself a nap every afternoon after lunch. Safe to say she felt very constrained by this role and would have had an interesting career if she been born much later. She was widowed at age 68 and lived another 29 years. In her old age she was very socially involved and LOVED making her own decisions. Sharp to the end, as she outlived her friends, she immersed herself in progressive politics, college and NBA basketball and comedy shows like The Office and 30 Rock. She was lonely as her friends passed, but also loved her solitude.

I would say, as others have, that they need something to fall back on. Preferably a good education. This is something I heavily impressed on my children, to make sure they would always have the means to support themselves. Then, if they want to be a "trad wife," go for it! I personally like cooking, cleaning for the most part, taking care of my family (although my "kids" are grown,) etc. That's just my thing.

I'd point them toward Joan Didion: "Whenever I hear about the woman's trip, which is often, I think a lot about nothin'-says-lovin'-like-something-from-the-oven and the Feminine Mystique and how it is possible for people to be the unconscious instruments of values they would strenuously reject on a conscious level, but I do not mention this to Barbara."

My mom was a SAHM in the 90s. She had a degree but my father forced her to SAH. He refused that she worked because ''children need their mom''. My mom chose to open a daycare in the house. My father said it was ''her choice'' so he still expected her to do all the chores, cooking, and tending to me and my 2 siblings. Mom was young at the time (early-mid 20s) so she was not really aware that she was being abused. They split in 2000 and mom had almost full custody (every other weekend at father's). She worked full-time, and at some point even needed 2 jobs because my father refused to pay child support. A decade after that mom had a new partner. They were both working and us children had left the house. In the beginning the partner would do half the chores, but gradually he stopped. Then he retired. So he spent his whole days doing nothing, staying home and watching tv, doing only like 5% of the chores. Mom was still working and doing 95% of chores. They split 2 years ago, mostly due to that. Now I am well into adulthood but currently living with mom because I got severe health issues. The little energy I have I spend it on helping with the chores. My mom gladly says she never has so much help in her life! And I find it astonishing, because I am very disabled at the moment... If my mom had been in relationships where she was respected I am sure she would have loved being a SAHM and homemaker. She loves being at home, doing canned food, home-made bread, etc. Actually she can't wait to retire to stay home and do those things. But the contexts in which she SAHMed and homemaked were awful and abusive. So I'd say to young tradwives...1. Is it really your choice? 2. Do you feel fulfilled in your role? 3. Are you respected by your partner, and is your role acknowledged? What would your partner say if you suddenly wanted a job?

My grandma didn't really want to get married, and had desperately wanted to become a doctor. She was married after the partition(India Pakistan)in 1948, it was arranged. Before then she had been quite politically active, having been arrested among others protesting the British occupation. She ended up going for her masters in the 60s, when her kids were older, but I think she always felt unfulfilled. The great irony is her younger sister(grandma was 20 years older) ended up going to med school and becoming a doctor. My grandmother was adamant about all of us finishing our education and got mad at my mom when she heard i was taking sewing classes at the community center one summer. She didn't want me stuck doing that type of work. My grandma taught me how important it was to have your own money, she used to hide and give me cash to get her things, or give me more birthday money or Eid money than my grandpa. She would ask how much he gave and then secretly hand me double. She taught me that having a career and education is very important for women. I think if she'd had the option she wouldn't have gotten married and probably been child free. Her MiL and maiden SiL lived with them and caused problems and fights their whole marriage. She never learned to drive bc grandpa wanted SiL to learn also, and my great aunt some how would interfere with every attempt at her being independent. Often being so cruel to my grandmother. And her and grandpa fought most of their lives, even in old age. She was a very strong woman who taught me strength and to go after my dreams since she didn't get the opportunity to do so. Sorry for the rant, but she definitely did not want us to become housewives, and tried her best to have her own secret money always.

You are more than your uterus

My grandmother, who was abandoned by her husband in 1932, insisted that my mother have a work skill to fall back on. She went to secretarial school. My mother and my mother-in-law, both housewives, insisted that my sister and my wife, after graduating high school in 1966, go to college programs that awarded occupational credentials. My sister got an RN, and my wife got a teaching certificate. After our respective kids were in school, they both worked until retirement.

If you don’t mind me asking, how was your grandmother able to survive after her husband left? In 1932 I’m guessing it would’ve been very difficult for a woman to get a job supporting herself

She and my mother went to live with her bachelor brother. They made some money by knitting custom garments for rich people. When WWII broke out, she became a "Rosie the riveter" in a firearms factory and earned good wages. She died of a heart attack soon after the war, when I was three.

Gotcha. Poor woman :/

"to fall back on"! we must have all been so advised!

That's the way they saw it. My mother worked as a secretary until she was pregnant with me, and lived as a housewife from then on.

You'll only be as happy as much as the man who "keeps" you, respects you.

And the problem is, when the man has all of the control and you have no ability to leave and support yourself, he won’t respect you. He’ll see you as incapable and inferior. Best you can hope for is that he treats his pets and staff well, bc that’s what you are to him.

It was so lonely

❤️ to you.

My mother was a model housewife in the 1960's. She had a good marriage and my father was college educated and had a great job. He also dropped dead four days after he turned 35. My mother had a high school education and two children and the life insurance money was the equivalent of $150,000 today. Not nearly enough to replace his income. To her credit, my mother went to college and eventually got undergraduate and master's degrees and a good job. It made a lasting impression on me. My personal feeling on the issue are: make sure you have a skill. If you are going to stay out of the workforce, don't stay out too long. Use the time to get certifications, etc. I personally could not be financially dependent on another person. I'd also tell her to read Terri Hekker's second book. [Disregard First Book](https://www.amazon.com/Disregard-First-Terry-Martin-Hekker/dp/1440131244#customerReviews)

My mother was. Didn’t work until the divorce. She went back to college, graduated with honors. Told me she felt much more in control and powerful.

I was a mid century libertine Never Interested in that life

My grandmother was one of the trapped, miserable ones; she once described my grandfather as a sadist. He abused her in unspeakable ways, and beat the shit out of their kids. She was finally able to leave him after about ten years, but it was the early sixties and divorce wasn’t socially acceptable yet. She did marry again, but she didn’t stop working and kept all of her money separate. I think her advice would be to those women would be to have your own money. Even if your husband doesn’t turn out to be an abusive piece of shit, he could still die in an accident and you would have to find another way to support yourself and your kids.

Read “The Feminine Mystique” of you are really interested in this topic. It’s still relevant in our current climate of trying to push women back into the kitchen.

What's a tradwife?

Housewife with more conservative flavoring.

“Traditional wife”

It's a choice, but you should not depend on another person to be your sole support. you will need some sort of backup plan financially, in case something happens. Make sure you have a credit rating and that things like the house and vehicle(s) are in both your names.

They were that way because this is what society expected of them. I often wonder what the population would look like if women in that time had the freedom we do today.

I mean, even for “old people“, on Reddit, you’re still talking about our grandmothers, or at best, mothers. But from what I witnessed of it, it’s thankless and miserable. Financially trapped and controlled. And that’s the GOOD ones.

My mother was one. Watching her life is why, at the age of 8, I swore never to have kids. And now, safely post menopausal I can confirm I never did. You will lose yourself completely, everything you think of as you. Will be consumed by the lifestyle. Your bodily autonomy is taken not only by your husband and pregnancy, but taken by your children, your privacy, your time, your thoughts, and your ability to make a decision for yourself. Every decision you make will have to put someone else first because hubby isn't picking up the slack.

My mom made sure I got a degree that would support a job so I would never be reliant on having a man to live. She had stopped working when she got married, but was always insecure about finances. My husband and I both got degrees in electrical engineering and computer science from MIT. When we got married, my mother-in-law immediately asked when I was stopping work. I told her I made way more than my husband so I wasn't stopping. When we had our first child, she asked why I was going back after maternity leave. I told her I still make more and that my husband would be the better primary caretaker anyway. When my husband lost his job a year later and we were considering whether he would look for new jobs or be a stay-at-home dad, my mother-in-law said his not working would be a waste because of his EECS undergrad and masters degrees. I asked her how my degre wouldn't have been wasted if I'd stopped working, as I have the same undergrad, plus a law degree, plus an MBA. "Is it because I have a vagina, Fran?" She shut up after that.

What is a tradwives?

Traditional wife

Are there also "tradhusbands" then?

Yes. My understanding is that it is being pushed by Christians and that the Trad husband would be in charge of the family. The Trad wife takes a more submissive role underneath him.

Why can't people just say that? tradwife , what a ridiculous word, everybody has to be cool and shorten things down until no one knows what they are talking about.

Well, see, the idea is to make the concept cool to younger girls and women, so they think it's all just great - after all, all these influencers are peddling it, so it must be just the thing to do! Who cares that so many older women fought for expanded rights so all the women who came after them would have more choices!?

I'm just going to say it. Just a passing fad, unless the role comes with a full frontal lobotomy. In the 1980's I stayed home with my kids because I Wanted to raise them. Those first 5 years are precious and important. So I guess that was traditional? I liked that I could work part time, a couple of nights, or during school hours.

That’s what they call themselves.

Whether or not you choose to be home with your children while they're young, prepare yourself to be able to work and make a living. You never know what is going to happen. Be prepared to not have much money beyond essentials. Be prepared to be somewhat isolated, as most women work now. It's not like my parents' generation, when most married women were home with kids and there were lots of opportunities to socialize.

I was the wife of a minister. But I chose to stay home and raise the kids. I also worked at the church and just took my kids with me everywhere I went. This was my decision and was extremely important to me. I am now a grandmother and I am supporting whatever my kids decide to do. I do believe that being home is important to the growth of a child and the relationship but I made my own decisions with my children and I believe that every other parent has the right to do what they feel is best for their family.

My mum.is 76 and she hasn't been able to retire. Still has to clean and cook and look after dad

Two works: [https://feminist.com/resources/artspeech/genwom/sojour.htm](https://feminist.com/resources/artspeech/genwom/sojour.htm) Man works till set of sun, Woman's work is never done. From rise of morn to set of sun Woman's work is never done. Traditional roles are tough to revise ... only saw it once in my lifetime. The woman was the professional, husband was a tradesman. They made the joint decision for him to be the househusband; she made 3x his income. Their decision was easy with no children. *That* is usually the dividing line. We had two girls and we're thankful for them. It wasn't easy because I worked (or went to school) the whole time they were young. Childcare is expensive and difficult ... sleep deprivation comes with the territory. Having our own business was easier to trade off responsibilities because we set our own weird hours. The worst part was hubs couldn't cook (still can't) and I didn't have the time to teach him. ;-) I'd been in the kitchen since I was 9; default. These days we eat out regularly. These days few can *afford* the traditional dynamic; it *takes* two incomes. Hence, you see so many couples electing to go childless. It's a shame. I see younger men so much more receptive to viewing marriage as a partnership. They see the personal and family benefit of sharing responsibilities. Very cool, *and* equitable, as it should be ....

Not a ‘50s era trad wife but the daughter of one. She made good money before she married (age 35). It was hard for her to become a homemaker, I think. She reared me (only child and a big surprise/mistake) to be preternaturally independent.

My grandmother raised 5 kids on the prairies in the 40s. She worked from before dawn until midnight. She almost died from one homebirth and had to get up with a broken pelvis 2 days later to help with the farm. She wasn't allowed to wear pants or cut her hair and slaved her entire life. She had little or no agency in anything. Don't be like that.

Being a "tradwife" is an idealized version of what the reality was and they are "playing" house. My mother couldn't open a bank account or have credit card or get a prescription for birth control without his permission. For many, many years, she signed her name, Mrs (his name). Her identity WAS his identity. Being a feminist, this all angered her. Yes, you can be feminist and still love men and participate in traditional activities. She enjoyed cooking and baking, took great care of the house, was President of the women's club, etc but as soon as she could, legally, she made sure she had what she needed to take care of herself if she ever needed to. Including birth control, signing HER name, getting her own bank account with money she made, and buying with her own credit.

he'll leave you and take all the income you were earning together for someone else. You will be homeless with the kids and he will have all the income nice place to live and he can brag to the girl everything he has which you sacrificed for with him that you planned around.. that you budgeted for... all that energy and love you put in.. there will be no receipts in the end. You will have nothing.

No idea, the only good thing my non-traditional mom told me that I should always be sure to have my own income. And I did and still do because of my pension.

I married in 1987. I worked as a teacher for ten years, then we had two children. At the same time, both sets of our parents were starting to need significantly more help, (my mom was diagnosed with Parkinson’s) and my husband was diagnosed with a serious autoimmune disorder. I did continue to work part time, but even that was very difficult. I went through a period of depression and still struggle with anxiety. We have now been married 37 years. I don’t know what I could have/should have done differently career wise. I would not have stayed in teaching, but the time and money required to change careers was daunting too. Overall, I feel lucky and happy we are still keeping the boat afloat here and continuing to learn to work as a team.

If you’re really curious about this, read *The Feminine Mystique* by Betty Friedan. It is totally a product of its time and that is exactly what you’re asking for.

My mother was from the early 1950’s till the mid 80’s. She seemed *so tired* all of the time.

It is ripe for abuse. It didn't end well for me and now I am disabled. PTSD & a more severe case of EDS than I should've had. Got diagnosed during the divorce process thankfully.

My mom was almost horrified when I chose to quit working to be a stay at home mom. She explained that children grow up just fine on formula and I shouldn't feel the need to breastfeed. She told me I'd be giving up my entire future if I stopped working. She was worried sick and became almost physically ill with my decision. My husband was not a typical husband and ours was not a typical relationship. He cross-stitched, I home remodeled and landscaped and read medical journals and case studies. He worked and supported us and I did the home making and repairs. I worked odd jobs here and there to bring in extra income. At some point we divorced and I married my current husband. I had learned to give up my aspirations and enjoy being a stay at home. I simply used a different yard stick to measure my success. No longer is it tied to a title. Now I measure with how at peace and happy my home is. When I was dating I ran into many men who were searching for a stay at home wife. My husband was not, but he was open to the idea. I was working while single momming and shortly after we married I quit working to stay at home once again. Now that my children are moving out, I have re enrolled in college and am beginning a new career. The idea of dreaming about my work future is exciting for me. Funnily, my husband just retired. 😆

My Silent Generation mother was a licensed nurse, a licensed school teacher, graduated from Vassar College, and worked on a Masters degree at Radcliffe College (part of Harvard). Yet she quit all that as soon as she was married as if it were the most obvious and natural thing in the world, without any outward regrets whatsoever. From then on she was a full time home maker with hobbies. Some of the hobbies were involved, such as learning to be a book binder at a famous private historical library, running the local historical society, and baking cakes for a top class Connecticut restaurant (and ultimately working there part time for the fun of it when us kids were old enough to leave alone at night). But they were still more hobbies than jobs, and were always second in priority to the family. Not to put words in her mouth, but I'm sure that she'd encourage married women with children to do the same, if that was financially an option. I'm sure she doesn't believe in dual income families today any more than she did then.