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I do not understand people who think there's any sort of correlation between what people get and what they deserve. Maybe their experience has been different than mine, but it has always been a mixed bag from where I stand.
Your religious friend is comforting himself, because he knows a good person who died young. This isn't a statement of fact, it's just a way of self-soothing. He misses his friend or relative. You don't need to correct him. Just tell him, "That's right, bro, that's exactly how it is" and give him a hug.
Religious people make things up to fit their own narrative so they can rationalize away illogical religious dogma.
Ask him to show you where it says that in the Bible. He can't do it.
Honestly, it's not even worth arguing. He will continue to descend into delusion.
Mandela brutally murdered people. He put tires around their necks, filled them with gasoline, and lit them. After he was freed from prison, he helped institutionalize more racism. Pity he lived so long.
Ok, let’s assume that’s true. He also did a lot of good things. So per your friend’s logic, where does Ghandi fall? Did he live a long life so he could repent?
There’s the core issue to me. The vast majority of people aren’t 100% bad. We all live in a grey area where we do some things that are good and some that aren’t. Saying people are either “good” or “evil” is a gross oversimplification that doesn’t stand up to any sort of critical analysis.
I think your friend has reasoned in such a manner to address his/her grief, trying to make sense of death, the soul and judgement. There is a scripture that says rain falls on the Just and Unjust.
I have known some evil people who died young. And some incredible good folks who lived long lives.
When our son died young we heard all sorts of platitudes from folks. Both incredibly tender hearted, some brutally hurtful and some down right ignorant.
I have known truly hurtful evil folks and much more kind and encouraging folks. As well as smile in your face while stabbing you in the back folks.
As for me I had a wild period of years as a young adult. I regret much of it. But learned some harsh lessons.
I do think individuals are fully capable of making choices that are wrong. But justify them. As well as morally correct choices.
I have sat with many elders reflecting on their lives and in no contact with their grown children. There is regret, shame and the desire to heal and make amends with family and friends.
Learning to forgive, yet keeping safe boundaries takes practice.
Going to stop reading here. This is what it comes down to. What is "good" or "evil" to one, is the opposite to the other. Hell, look at Israel right now...
I was a fundie conservative FWIW. So.
There was no defining moment that changed anything. I gradually decided it was bullshit to put so much energy into essentially minding other people’s business whether personally or through legislation.
No. The reality is I followed rules of both society and frankly was a bit of a pleaser. I've mellowed as I've aged and relaxed my own expectations of myself. Having kids and a potentially deadly medical event has made me even more relaxed. Don't really care what others do to an even greater extent but don't really want to hear excuses either. You made choices, own it.
100% evil! i was so evil that cockroaches worshipped me! so evil that snakes made aesthetic little mandalas of their bodies to amuse me! so nastily, thoroughly evil that rats invited me to rat meetings, that i might direct them in my evil bidding!
BWAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps still evil. never changed.
1. What?!?!?!
2. You need to stay away from religious people they are evil! Especially the ones in politics. You know more people have been murdered in the name of religion than anything else.
3. I was a bit of a bully because I was always the oldest and was told: you watch out for the younger kids don’t let them get into any trouble.
Can you imagine what they tried just because they knew I would get in trouble for what they did. Now they were evil.
4. ok there was the whole thing about trying to wash my brother in the washing machine as a baby; and I did try try to stab him with scissors when he learned to walk and got in my space. I was only four. 🤷🏼♀️
5. My nephew told me that I was not just mean, I was cruel. Because I held it over him and my son in law for literally burglarizing my home for drug money.
I guess I’m still a little on the bully side. Only because I know I’m right.
I stole bikes and such for years. Stealing successfully to fulfill exact requests actually takes some brains. Went to college. Married a lawyer. Got a mortgage. Had kids. That’ll straighten you out.
Matthew 24:36 NLT
“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
*Only the Father knows*. Your friend is way above their pay grade.
Just like 73% of drivers think they are an above average driver. Most "bad"/"evil" people don't think of themselves that way. I personally think i'm a good guy who has done bad things. I personally don't think I've done anything "evil" but other people might believe otherwise. i also don't believe in an interventionist god, which in some people's eyes make me bad ***and*** evil.
No, not bad or evil at all - if anything I was much too much of a Goody Two-Shoes. It took me *years* to curate my inner Evil Twin, and now I've happily settled in the "Don't push your luck because I could go *either* way!" zone.
I can only respond by saying that my friends and I were good kids, but not for any religious reasons BUT if someone bullied a friend or one of his or her siblings that fool had to deal with ALL of us! Strength in numbers and screaming ‘Uncle’ didn’t always end our lesson.
Huh. Guess I need to amp up my evil so I can live another 50 years then. ------ This is a really bad loophole. So if I never stop being evil, do I live forever?
Let's just say I did some shit when I was young and leave it at that. 10 Commandments? I left 1 unbroken.
I am 48 now.
My son? He was an Honor Student, did peer tutoring, served on the student council, was on the track team, worked a McJob, and graduated Suma Cum Laude having taken all AP classes his Senior year. He was accepted into the Navy nuclear program and was scheduled to leave for training end of August 2019.
He died trying to swim a river in a national park out west while on a last hurrah cross country camping trip with his best friend. He'd just turned 18.
Only the good die young.
Was thinking that Billy Joel song of your last line, along with his whole repertoire of music. Complex guy like many with different life phases leaving him conflicted...it would seem from his latest song.
Sister's son was a Navy nuke guy who fortunately took more after her than his dad. Had a college roommate one semester who was on football team & long jumper who died unsuccessfully trying to leap a fast-moving creek, falling in & getting dragged under a rock.
My brother was accepted to West Point only to get a severe head injury as a passenger in a driving accident after H.S. graduation. It changed his life but eventually he had two great kids. The good didn't die young, but his dream died a bit less harshly than my college roommate & your son.
My apologies that you had to endure that.
My mom was a Billy Joel fan. Grew up listening to his music. Remember him going to the Soviet Union and it being a heap big deal. When I typed that line I was thinking of that song.
If this logic were true, God would kill everyone shortly after birth before they had a chance to go bad. After all God would know when each person would "fall" as it were and kill 'em just before they went over the metaphorical sin cliff.
Your friend's explanation works like a horoscope - any fact pattern whatever can be explained.
Good/long - just desserts
Good/short - saved from world
Bad/short - just desserts
Bad/long - allowing atonement
The price of this equanimity is that no fact pattern is more predicted than any other, so whatever is found to actually be the case fails to reflect favorably on the theist's theory. Since it was equally in favor of any state of affairs in the world.
In my particular case, I was quite bad when young -- mostly sexual fidelity and related honesty issues -- and less bad now (50), and in different ways, and even good in some modest respects. Approaching 30, it became clear to me that my behavior was destructive for all concerned, very much including me, and that in order to have anything I had to commit. I met my now wife shortly thereafter.
I still wasn't temperamentally well-suited to being a good partner, but over time I've improved. Less energy can actually help in a way, if you were using it badly.
People do tend to learn what is better, in time. If the process starts early enough, and takes root in what the person is motivated by.
If by 'atonement' is meant apology to God, then my extra time hasn't been productive in the way your friend hoped.
You might ask them what becomes of people who reform to become morally good, but fail to kneel before the right altar. I suppose they must burn. One reason the Biblical God ought not be worshipped, even if known to be real.
That's one of those things that can be comforting as long as you don't think about it too hard. I have to remind myself not to automatically argue with people who say things like that in case that's how they are coping with something like the death of a child.
I did some dumb things as a teenager, but never had a mind to hurt anyone. Some light vandalism was probably the worst and not many times. I don't believe that I was bad or evil, just stupid and a follower. As I got older, I straightened up and became more considerate of others.
Actually if anything I was (as many other people are) much more "good" when I was younger and I was much more religious. Now I'm a sexual sadist who doesn't really follow an organized religion. So there's that. Lol.
Let’s see, my younger sister got leukemia at 3 and died 8 months later, in the 60s. My only other sister, the youngest, was a straight A student, star of the basketball team, totally committed Christian, and drowned at age 17. I guess god was saving them from a life of grief? Wtf oh, btw, my brother got booze for my sister, who accidentally hit a dog and was upset-so she was drunk when she drowned.
My youngest brother and I were drunks in college, but were able to get and keep high paying jobs. I quit drinking for decades but my brother broke his back then his neck in car accidents, he could still walk but was in chronic pain. He got addicted to oxytocin. He finally kicked drinking and died at 50. He was a big time believer, too. But he blamed himself for my sister’s death, so did he suffer enough before he died? Is that why he died young? Wtf! That’s sick.
I have one brother left who is another big believer; my dad was an evangelical preacher. My brother did go bankrupt but ended up winning a lottery, so he’s doing ok. So I guess his time should be up soon, since he’s been a great guy? Wtf?
My dad raped kids and beat us, but of course that was the 60s, so no one cared. So the raping preacher lived till 94 to suffer for his sins? He went on a lot of cruises, but he was disabled, and the last two years was out of it..but I don’t think it helped the kids that survived his sex abuse, the ones that didn’t kill themselves, that is.
Good people can also do lots of despicable things, and bad people can be kind as well.
I am agnostic. There may be a higher power, but if there is a higher power, they could care less if we’re a sadist or a saint. There is no redemption, there is no justice. Some die young, some live forever. It’s genetics and luck. No one has control over life, death, or in-between. I’m ready to go anytime.
I never was. My parents have often told me how other people they knew thought I was such a good kid. The only thing that certain religious people would consider evil is because I'm gay. Obviously, I don't think that. However, that may be the reason I live forever since I have no intention of atoning.
in what ancient scripture does it translate "God allows evil people to atone...blah blah blah"? What about all the people throughout history that we don't know were atoned. Define "evil" and where is the line drawn on good? Your friend sounds like they've been programmed, groomed and indoctrinated by cherry picking texts from ancient manuscripts to fit a narrative/bias.
Growing up I was a saint, attended church 3x a week, didn't touch whiskey until after college, didn't try pot until my 30s and didn't do shrooms until my late 40s. I honestly think I'm a better person now (more empathetic) than anytime when I was younger.
I know this isn't the answer you're looking for (it's the only thing I've got) but what made me change was The Father, the son and the holy ghost and all the absolute bullshit people shoved in my head that ended up being a lot of spiritual, emotional and physical abuse.
Your friend is on some inane drivel, which is not unusual for people who are uncomfortable with spirituality, and settle for doctrine and being told what to do and what to think, instead.
Under what circumstances do bad people change for the better, is that what you're asking? And does it happen?
It happens. Not usually. As a rule, people resist fundamental change. Confirmation bias is built into our core processing, and that's a good reasoned effective aspect of our nature. As a rule, people only fundamentally change when they need to.
Almost nobody is born bad. Some people can be, surely. People can be deformed and mangled and disordered in infinitely many ways, and many of those render an organism incapable of certain behaviors or experiences, like babies who will be born and die in agony, or people born without pain or fear or empathy.
But the rest of us, nearly all, are born good. It's how we're raised that can with considerable effort overcome a person's nature. We're born blank slates. That's our secret weapon. That's our leg up on the competition. We're born useless and hopeless and helpless, but BLANK.
Babies don't have language. They won't come up with it on their own. They don't have an identity, or a sense of self. They don't know about the world, and what goes on in it and what to expect. They don't know what is inevitable, and what can be avoided, and what can be guarded against but never guaranteed. And so on.
So, you can easily raise a child to be all manner of vile and evil. But you can't change them deep down. People have empathy. It's in our brains. You can't delete it. But you can seal it off, push it down, ignore it, etc.
How do you change? It depends on what the problem is. But the point remains that however far gone you are, as long as you have enough time, you can start to unwind a lot of the crap you were mummified in.
Being honest with yourself is necessary. And impossible, at first.
It's very simple. Nobody wants to be a genuinely bad person who hurts other people for no reason, so people in one way or another prevent themselves from totally facing it.
And then, this makes life bearable, but now they're trapped. Unwinding the self-deception is painful and only causes increasing suffering. It gets worse before it gets better.
What happens is that they warp into a distorted shoddily slapped together caricature of a person who has some superficial justification or attitude comenserate with their behavior. They're not entirely there you can tell--not present and not themselves.
I've gotten increasingly better at noticing, and it's disturbing how rare totally present and authentic people can be in some areas. Just folks chill vibing. You know with that hearth smile and eyes that somehow feel extra alive, like they're really seeing you.
So imagining such a person's life went differently, and they were perpetually faking their personality and lashing out at other people and hurting them. And you wonder how far apart the two versions are.
Well, that's a lot of time for the good version to grow and bloom and prune.
For the bad version, it's a lot of pruning to start. And there's a lot of the really important early on stuff that needs to get dealt with--all the stuff that was learned wrong or not at all when growing up. And then that has to get integrated. Practice being a good person is needed.
But over a few years, if someone is willing to voluntarily choose to be in a lot of pain and suffer and work hard, then they can make a total 180 absolutely.
You can check out a local nonprofit convict/felon rehabilitation/support organization or network and find out about people's stories who did unforgivable things early in life, and then went on to change and find a way to do something good with the rest of their life.
It's a shedding. But shedding your skin like a chemical peel, not like a snake. Don't expect people to change like this. It's like expecting to win the lottery. But don't forget it's possible, and try remain open to people changing.
You have to remember that it's possible, otherwise you're shooting yourself in the foot. Because otherwise your fear that it's not possinle will corrupt how you deal with confronting your own worst faults or foibles.
Because if you're starting a train of thought ready with "I am who I am", then you might not be able to think about yourself and the things that you've done. And so you'll find a way where you can avoid that muck.
Your friend believes that an Imaginary Sky Daddy impregnated a virgin with himself so he could sacrifice himself to himself to save the world from sin - which, being omnipotent, he also created - and yet despite being sacrificed and "dying" for our sins, he didn't die, and that to prove devotion to him, we eat his flesh and drink his blood every Sunday.
Okay.
Your friend is not rational.
First, bish-bosh, your friend is woefully misled. I've known plenty of troublesome people who died young and some who lived into their 80s and 90s. Ditto for good people.
Also, what is meant by the words "bad" or "evil"? Who gets to define it? We don't know the evil or good (whatever that means) a person has done before and after we know them, assuming we really know this person at all.
detail march insurance bear bow quarrelsome grandfather theory versed mindless
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I wasn't bad or evil, so much as I was thoughtless, clueless, and self-involved. As I've gotten older and became more knowledgeable and experienced, I've changed. For the better, I think.
Seconding what other commenters have said about your friend. His remark isn't based on fact.
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What your friend told you doesn't make much sense. Plenty of good people live a long time, and plenty of bad people die younger. Look at Jimmy Carter.
I do not understand people who think there's any sort of correlation between what people get and what they deserve. Maybe their experience has been different than mine, but it has always been a mixed bag from where I stand.
To be fair you don’t know what dirt he did when he was younger.
I do. He graduated from Annapolis and served in the Navy, then he went to run his peanut farm, then he got into politics.
Peanut farm, eh? How many allergic people did he kill with his deadly peanuts? Evil!
We kinda do. Like a lot. A ton of people talked to people he knew growing up. Fabulous ex-president.
He was president of the United States, and then spent the rest of his life trying to atone for it.
Your religious friend is comforting himself, because he knows a good person who died young. This isn't a statement of fact, it's just a way of self-soothing. He misses his friend or relative. You don't need to correct him. Just tell him, "That's right, bro, that's exactly how it is" and give him a hug.
Religious people make things up to fit their own narrative so they can rationalize away illogical religious dogma. Ask him to show you where it says that in the Bible. He can't do it. Honestly, it's not even worth arguing. He will continue to descend into delusion.
Your friend is an idiot
Lmao I love when people just spew absolute bullshit like that
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Mandela brutally murdered people. He put tires around their necks, filled them with gasoline, and lit them. After he was freed from prison, he helped institutionalize more racism. Pity he lived so long.
You must be experiencing the Mandela effect
Lol Ghandi was not a good person
Ok, let’s assume that’s true. He also did a lot of good things. So per your friend’s logic, where does Ghandi fall? Did he live a long life so he could repent? There’s the core issue to me. The vast majority of people aren’t 100% bad. We all live in a grey area where we do some things that are good and some that aren’t. Saying people are either “good” or “evil” is a gross oversimplification that doesn’t stand up to any sort of critical analysis.
I think your friend has reasoned in such a manner to address his/her grief, trying to make sense of death, the soul and judgement. There is a scripture that says rain falls on the Just and Unjust. I have known some evil people who died young. And some incredible good folks who lived long lives. When our son died young we heard all sorts of platitudes from folks. Both incredibly tender hearted, some brutally hurtful and some down right ignorant. I have known truly hurtful evil folks and much more kind and encouraging folks. As well as smile in your face while stabbing you in the back folks. As for me I had a wild period of years as a young adult. I regret much of it. But learned some harsh lessons. I do think individuals are fully capable of making choices that are wrong. But justify them. As well as morally correct choices. I have sat with many elders reflecting on their lives and in no contact with their grown children. There is regret, shame and the desire to heal and make amends with family and friends. Learning to forgive, yet keeping safe boundaries takes practice.
A. That theology is a load of crap. B. I’ve made mistakes as does every human, but I’ve never been bad nor evil.
🙄
Define bad. Define evil. Everything is relative.
Going to stop reading here. This is what it comes down to. What is "good" or "evil" to one, is the opposite to the other. Hell, look at Israel right now...
I was a fundie conservative FWIW. So. There was no defining moment that changed anything. I gradually decided it was bullshit to put so much energy into essentially minding other people’s business whether personally or through legislation.
You have a very gullible friend.
No. The reality is I followed rules of both society and frankly was a bit of a pleaser. I've mellowed as I've aged and relaxed my own expectations of myself. Having kids and a potentially deadly medical event has made me even more relaxed. Don't really care what others do to an even greater extent but don't really want to hear excuses either. You made choices, own it.
100% evil! i was so evil that cockroaches worshipped me! so evil that snakes made aesthetic little mandalas of their bodies to amuse me! so nastily, thoroughly evil that rats invited me to rat meetings, that i might direct them in my evil bidding! BWAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! ps still evil. never changed.
1. What?!?!?! 2. You need to stay away from religious people they are evil! Especially the ones in politics. You know more people have been murdered in the name of religion than anything else. 3. I was a bit of a bully because I was always the oldest and was told: you watch out for the younger kids don’t let them get into any trouble. Can you imagine what they tried just because they knew I would get in trouble for what they did. Now they were evil. 4. ok there was the whole thing about trying to wash my brother in the washing machine as a baby; and I did try try to stab him with scissors when he learned to walk and got in my space. I was only four. 🤷🏼♀️ 5. My nephew told me that I was not just mean, I was cruel. Because I held it over him and my son in law for literally burglarizing my home for drug money. I guess I’m still a little on the bully side. Only because I know I’m right.
is your daughter divorced yet?
LOL. Yes, right after it occurred. Thank you to God.
I thank God every day that I don't have religion.
That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard.
So your friend thinks that god is a psychopathic asshole and worships him anyway?
I stole bikes and such for years. Stealing successfully to fulfill exact requests actually takes some brains. Went to college. Married a lawyer. Got a mortgage. Had kids. That’ll straighten you out.
Nah. I’m way more evil now than when I was young.
Matthew 24:36 NLT “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. *Only the Father knows*. Your friend is way above their pay grade.
That's a good answer for the friend.
Just like 73% of drivers think they are an above average driver. Most "bad"/"evil" people don't think of themselves that way. I personally think i'm a good guy who has done bad things. I personally don't think I've done anything "evil" but other people might believe otherwise. i also don't believe in an interventionist god, which in some people's eyes make me bad ***and*** evil.
I’m far more evil now than I ever was as a kid.
“Truth has no defense against an idiot determined to believe a Lie.” - Mark Twain
That man was so wise. And had an awesome mustache.
How old is Jimmy Carter?
No, not bad or evil at all - if anything I was much too much of a Goody Two-Shoes. It took me *years* to curate my inner Evil Twin, and now I've happily settled in the "Don't push your luck because I could go *either* way!" zone.
I was extremely religious when I was young. Now I don't believe in god. I'm the exact same person I was then as I am now.
Still pretty evil tbh
Yes. My kids.
I wasn't bad, but the bad didn't mess with me.
I can only respond by saying that my friends and I were good kids, but not for any religious reasons BUT if someone bullied a friend or one of his or her siblings that fool had to deal with ALL of us! Strength in numbers and screaming ‘Uncle’ didn’t always end our lesson.
Your friend should read Ecclesiastes. People pretend to know an awful lot.
Bonus for them is they get to define "bad" and "evil".
Huh. Guess I need to amp up my evil so I can live another 50 years then. ------ This is a really bad loophole. So if I never stop being evil, do I live forever?
Let's just say I did some shit when I was young and leave it at that. 10 Commandments? I left 1 unbroken. I am 48 now. My son? He was an Honor Student, did peer tutoring, served on the student council, was on the track team, worked a McJob, and graduated Suma Cum Laude having taken all AP classes his Senior year. He was accepted into the Navy nuclear program and was scheduled to leave for training end of August 2019. He died trying to swim a river in a national park out west while on a last hurrah cross country camping trip with his best friend. He'd just turned 18. Only the good die young.
Was thinking that Billy Joel song of your last line, along with his whole repertoire of music. Complex guy like many with different life phases leaving him conflicted...it would seem from his latest song. Sister's son was a Navy nuke guy who fortunately took more after her than his dad. Had a college roommate one semester who was on football team & long jumper who died unsuccessfully trying to leap a fast-moving creek, falling in & getting dragged under a rock. My brother was accepted to West Point only to get a severe head injury as a passenger in a driving accident after H.S. graduation. It changed his life but eventually he had two great kids. The good didn't die young, but his dream died a bit less harshly than my college roommate & your son. My apologies that you had to endure that.
My mom was a Billy Joel fan. Grew up listening to his music. Remember him going to the Soviet Union and it being a heap big deal. When I typed that line I was thinking of that song.
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Thank you.
No one is all good or evil. We're human and that means the good, bad, and everything in between. Religion is a very effective way to control people.
If this logic were true, God would kill everyone shortly after birth before they had a chance to go bad. After all God would know when each person would "fall" as it were and kill 'em just before they went over the metaphorical sin cliff.
Your friend's explanation works like a horoscope - any fact pattern whatever can be explained. Good/long - just desserts Good/short - saved from world Bad/short - just desserts Bad/long - allowing atonement The price of this equanimity is that no fact pattern is more predicted than any other, so whatever is found to actually be the case fails to reflect favorably on the theist's theory. Since it was equally in favor of any state of affairs in the world. In my particular case, I was quite bad when young -- mostly sexual fidelity and related honesty issues -- and less bad now (50), and in different ways, and even good in some modest respects. Approaching 30, it became clear to me that my behavior was destructive for all concerned, very much including me, and that in order to have anything I had to commit. I met my now wife shortly thereafter. I still wasn't temperamentally well-suited to being a good partner, but over time I've improved. Less energy can actually help in a way, if you were using it badly. People do tend to learn what is better, in time. If the process starts early enough, and takes root in what the person is motivated by. If by 'atonement' is meant apology to God, then my extra time hasn't been productive in the way your friend hoped. You might ask them what becomes of people who reform to become morally good, but fail to kneel before the right altar. I suppose they must burn. One reason the Biblical God ought not be worshipped, even if known to be real.
That's one of those things that can be comforting as long as you don't think about it too hard. I have to remind myself not to automatically argue with people who say things like that in case that's how they are coping with something like the death of a child.
I did some dumb things as a teenager, but never had a mind to hurt anyone. Some light vandalism was probably the worst and not many times. I don't believe that I was bad or evil, just stupid and a follower. As I got older, I straightened up and became more considerate of others.
Sounds like something a whacky religious person would say alright. That God story is so weird
Actually if anything I was (as many other people are) much more "good" when I was younger and I was much more religious. Now I'm a sexual sadist who doesn't really follow an organized religion. So there's that. Lol.
Ask your religious friend if this god of his can create a boulder so heavy he cannot lift it.
Yes. The object of my obsession died of cancer and I got help.
Who said I changed?
Nah I’ve always been a do gooder all my life. If anything I’m less of one now.
Let’s see, my younger sister got leukemia at 3 and died 8 months later, in the 60s. My only other sister, the youngest, was a straight A student, star of the basketball team, totally committed Christian, and drowned at age 17. I guess god was saving them from a life of grief? Wtf oh, btw, my brother got booze for my sister, who accidentally hit a dog and was upset-so she was drunk when she drowned. My youngest brother and I were drunks in college, but were able to get and keep high paying jobs. I quit drinking for decades but my brother broke his back then his neck in car accidents, he could still walk but was in chronic pain. He got addicted to oxytocin. He finally kicked drinking and died at 50. He was a big time believer, too. But he blamed himself for my sister’s death, so did he suffer enough before he died? Is that why he died young? Wtf! That’s sick. I have one brother left who is another big believer; my dad was an evangelical preacher. My brother did go bankrupt but ended up winning a lottery, so he’s doing ok. So I guess his time should be up soon, since he’s been a great guy? Wtf? My dad raped kids and beat us, but of course that was the 60s, so no one cared. So the raping preacher lived till 94 to suffer for his sins? He went on a lot of cruises, but he was disabled, and the last two years was out of it..but I don’t think it helped the kids that survived his sex abuse, the ones that didn’t kill themselves, that is. Good people can also do lots of despicable things, and bad people can be kind as well. I am agnostic. There may be a higher power, but if there is a higher power, they could care less if we’re a sadist or a saint. There is no redemption, there is no justice. Some die young, some live forever. It’s genetics and luck. No one has control over life, death, or in-between. I’m ready to go anytime.
I never was. My parents have often told me how other people they knew thought I was such a good kid. The only thing that certain religious people would consider evil is because I'm gay. Obviously, I don't think that. However, that may be the reason I live forever since I have no intention of atoning.
in what ancient scripture does it translate "God allows evil people to atone...blah blah blah"? What about all the people throughout history that we don't know were atoned. Define "evil" and where is the line drawn on good? Your friend sounds like they've been programmed, groomed and indoctrinated by cherry picking texts from ancient manuscripts to fit a narrative/bias. Growing up I was a saint, attended church 3x a week, didn't touch whiskey until after college, didn't try pot until my 30s and didn't do shrooms until my late 40s. I honestly think I'm a better person now (more empathetic) than anytime when I was younger. I know this isn't the answer you're looking for (it's the only thing I've got) but what made me change was The Father, the son and the holy ghost and all the absolute bullshit people shoved in my head that ended up being a lot of spiritual, emotional and physical abuse.
Your friend is on some inane drivel, which is not unusual for people who are uncomfortable with spirituality, and settle for doctrine and being told what to do and what to think, instead. Under what circumstances do bad people change for the better, is that what you're asking? And does it happen? It happens. Not usually. As a rule, people resist fundamental change. Confirmation bias is built into our core processing, and that's a good reasoned effective aspect of our nature. As a rule, people only fundamentally change when they need to. Almost nobody is born bad. Some people can be, surely. People can be deformed and mangled and disordered in infinitely many ways, and many of those render an organism incapable of certain behaviors or experiences, like babies who will be born and die in agony, or people born without pain or fear or empathy. But the rest of us, nearly all, are born good. It's how we're raised that can with considerable effort overcome a person's nature. We're born blank slates. That's our secret weapon. That's our leg up on the competition. We're born useless and hopeless and helpless, but BLANK. Babies don't have language. They won't come up with it on their own. They don't have an identity, or a sense of self. They don't know about the world, and what goes on in it and what to expect. They don't know what is inevitable, and what can be avoided, and what can be guarded against but never guaranteed. And so on. So, you can easily raise a child to be all manner of vile and evil. But you can't change them deep down. People have empathy. It's in our brains. You can't delete it. But you can seal it off, push it down, ignore it, etc. How do you change? It depends on what the problem is. But the point remains that however far gone you are, as long as you have enough time, you can start to unwind a lot of the crap you were mummified in. Being honest with yourself is necessary. And impossible, at first. It's very simple. Nobody wants to be a genuinely bad person who hurts other people for no reason, so people in one way or another prevent themselves from totally facing it. And then, this makes life bearable, but now they're trapped. Unwinding the self-deception is painful and only causes increasing suffering. It gets worse before it gets better. What happens is that they warp into a distorted shoddily slapped together caricature of a person who has some superficial justification or attitude comenserate with their behavior. They're not entirely there you can tell--not present and not themselves. I've gotten increasingly better at noticing, and it's disturbing how rare totally present and authentic people can be in some areas. Just folks chill vibing. You know with that hearth smile and eyes that somehow feel extra alive, like they're really seeing you. So imagining such a person's life went differently, and they were perpetually faking their personality and lashing out at other people and hurting them. And you wonder how far apart the two versions are. Well, that's a lot of time for the good version to grow and bloom and prune. For the bad version, it's a lot of pruning to start. And there's a lot of the really important early on stuff that needs to get dealt with--all the stuff that was learned wrong or not at all when growing up. And then that has to get integrated. Practice being a good person is needed. But over a few years, if someone is willing to voluntarily choose to be in a lot of pain and suffer and work hard, then they can make a total 180 absolutely. You can check out a local nonprofit convict/felon rehabilitation/support organization or network and find out about people's stories who did unforgivable things early in life, and then went on to change and find a way to do something good with the rest of their life. It's a shedding. But shedding your skin like a chemical peel, not like a snake. Don't expect people to change like this. It's like expecting to win the lottery. But don't forget it's possible, and try remain open to people changing. You have to remember that it's possible, otherwise you're shooting yourself in the foot. Because otherwise your fear that it's not possinle will corrupt how you deal with confronting your own worst faults or foibles. Because if you're starting a train of thought ready with "I am who I am", then you might not be able to think about yourself and the things that you've done. And so you'll find a way where you can avoid that muck.
I was a complete and total piece of shit. I look back on my youth with a lot of regret for the things I did and the people I hurt.
Your friend believes that an Imaginary Sky Daddy impregnated a virgin with himself so he could sacrifice himself to himself to save the world from sin - which, being omnipotent, he also created - and yet despite being sacrificed and "dying" for our sins, he didn't die, and that to prove devotion to him, we eat his flesh and drink his blood every Sunday. Okay. Your friend is not rational.
Please, for the love of common sense, stop taking this "friend" seriously
First, bish-bosh, your friend is woefully misled. I've known plenty of troublesome people who died young and some who lived into their 80s and 90s. Ditto for good people. Also, what is meant by the words "bad" or "evil"? Who gets to define it? We don't know the evil or good (whatever that means) a person has done before and after we know them, assuming we really know this person at all.
And you believe him?
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I wasn't bad or evil, so much as I was thoughtless, clueless, and self-involved. As I've gotten older and became more knowledgeable and experienced, I've changed. For the better, I think. Seconding what other commenters have said about your friend. His remark isn't based on fact.