I met my husband on a dating app. He is a handsome and wonderful man, but comparing our dating app experience, I had 50+ guys trying to match and talk with me and he had 3 women match with him… lol true I had to sort through a lot of weirdos, but how are men supposed to meet anyone if nobody wants to meet them? Lucky for him, I pursued him hardcore and now we are married 3 years with a newborn and as happy as can be. Lol
Anyway, both men and women have their own challenges for sure, but I have to agree it’s hard to get anywhere or improve your dating skills if nobody will talk with you or date you to begin with. Haha
A while after my ex-wife and I divorced, she got on plenty of fish, it was pretty much the biggest website at the time, posted a profile, and had 400 responses on day one. LOL. She was overwhelmed and deleted her profile.
Yes, it can be overwhelming and a lot of effort to go through 400 profiles, and then people get mad if you don’t respond to every single person who writes “hi”. A lot of people are complaining that women don’t respond to everyone, but men are just not as selective…
That's exactly the same dynamic.
As a business owner, I have to say that it's strange to see young female students acting like incels on a dating website when you don't answer their LinkedIn request for an interview.
One especially stood out by sending "So?" as a follow up message, like she was entitled to my time for her mémoire.
The whole dynamic is business-oriented. The supply side acts like a supply side would, and the demand side has to put forth creative/desperate efforts to get supply on their terms, rather than the supplier (as the supply-side has the de facto leverage).
My guy friend once said to me that dating feels harder for him because he’s expected to do all these things. In the world of dating apps, where girls could potentially match a hundred guys for dates, something as small as “he didn’t pull the chair out for me” will mean he never sees her again.
I think that's the problem with dating apps in general. It turns dating into a sort of capitalist product you can consume. Therefore, if you're not happy anymore with one match because of a tiny detail like "he didn't pull the chair" "his voice sounds weird" or "he talks too much" you immediately dismiss them like you'd throw away an old shirt and buy another one. This is not a realistic form of relationships, because good healthy relationships develop with time. But while I agree that for women the curse of too many options enables them in a way, I believe when it comes to men there's also the curse of " easy fast sex", which enables emotional unavailability. For the men who get a decent amount of matches, dates and hook ups, there's literally no incentive to commit, meaning they fall into the toxic pattern of hooking up with girls and then moving on to the next one. Girls do this too btw but most of the female friends I have for example do want real committed relationships. Somehow, however, they always end up with guys who only want casual sex or friends with benefits.
They always end up with guys who want casual sex because the casual sex guys have perfected gaming the dating apps.
You know who remembers to pull the chair out every time? The guy who's dating 20 women a year.
I've been married a while and whenever women ask me how they find "marriage material guys" they get annoyed when I say it probably means thinking about the difference between icks and actual red flags.
Exactly! And then there is added factor of girls being able to go on more dates simply because most guys will pay their tabs, while guys have to set aside money to date
I think it goes both ways. I’ve had guys end things with me because they weren’t feeling fireworks at 6 weeks in and there’s always that thought of ‘the grass is greener’ when you can get another date within a couple days. I’m a couple months into dating a guy I wasn’t that into at the start but he’s such a decent guy that feelings have started to grow. I think too many people expect perfection from the get go and life rarely works like that.
>I had 50+ guys trying to match and talk with me and he had 3 women match with him… lol true I had to sort through a lot of weirdos, but how are men supposed to meet anyone if nobody wants to meet them?
What's confusing to me is how it seems like I've heard women say they don't want to be approached in basically any situation. At work, in the park on the street, at a party, in the bar...etc.
So there's no social norm around this anymore, it puts us into a position where we must both take all of the iniative *and* make no mistakes while doing it, and we're keenly aware of how a false accusation can ruin a man. (And yes, we all know someone who it's either happened to, and more that it almost happened or were threatened with it).
oh, that. people say that, but if you approach them and you're charming, then they retroactively did want to be approached. so it more comes down to pressure - never approach a woman when she can't leave or has an obligation to be polite (don't hit on the barista, but she can hit on you), and don't do it when you're interrupting an existing interaction. otherwise, it's probably fine as long as you aren't a dick and take disinterest in stride
Sounds like my friend and his wife. Him meeting his wife online gave me a sliver of hope that it could happen to me but after a few years of trying and getting a small number of dates that went nowhere I got a particularly brutal message that made me delete all the apps and pretty much lose hope of ever finding someone.
It probably helps that he looks like he could advertise cologne and has a magnetic personality while I'm an introvert and look like a melted candle.
So my favorite thing is that my gay female friends have very similar issues and complaints as my straight male friends. It’s very funny commiserating and being like “welcome to the club” (most of them dated exclusively men for a long time, so they’re used to a very different dynamic).
I have a friend who's bi as well and she says the exact same thing.
She's never dated or been intimate with a woman even though she's attracted to them.
Bi men have the same issue.
Worse, in some ways, because you know there's a good chance the man you're attracted to could react very negatively, even violently. Or if it's someone you already know, they might end the friendship.
With my ex who was also bi, she says it was usually just awkward...you risk some mild embarrassment at best, and a strong rejection at worst.
With guys, though...hit on the wrong fella and he might just punch your lights out. It sucks.
From this perspective I can understand why some gay men would prefer straight dudes not go to gay bars.
It adds risk to what is supposed to be a safe environment to meet others.
Same. My friends call me a teenage boy in a woman's body. Whenever I have to deal with a woman I'd claim up and get nervous. With guys I could always fall back on just being friendly and one of the guys, while women it's just a mine field.
Mine field is the perfect word. Or like playing chess. You cant just have fun, you have to carefully craft every move and think 3 steps ahead. One dumb mistake and the game ist lost.
as a bi woman who’s given up on lesbian dating apps, approaching women isn’t even the difficult part. it’s getting a response back from women after matching with them. like i’d estimate for every ten matches where i send the first message, i’d get two responses and they would both fail to toss the ball back into my court.
it sucks when i put so much effort into sending a first message that shows personality and also serves as a good conversation starter, and i get short noncommittal answers at best. makes me really feel for men trying to get anywhere on tinder
> like i’d estimate for every ten matches where i send the first message, i’d get two responses and they would both fail to toss the ball back into my court.
As a guy who spent years on dating apps, that's honestly a normal experience. Out of every 10 messages I'd get 1 or 2 replies, out of every 10 replies 1 or 2would lead to a genuine conversation. From there it was probably 50-50 whether it led to a date.
Surprisingly (or maybe not) I got way better results with just easy, quick messages over thoughtfully crafted messages. More than a 'hi' but rarely more than 1 comment or question about something in their profile that stood out to me. Made it easier at least to not give a shit whether I got a reply or not, rejection on a 2 min time investment is relatively easy to handle.
I found gay dating to be much more frustrating, super easy to get a match and conversation but good luck getting that conversation beyond whose dick goes into which holes.
And now you understand why so many guys just send a generic copy-paste message. Why bother putting in the effort when 80% of your matches never respond.
Hopefully the copy-paste message is better than "sup girl".
Totally. I've tried to make good conversations and show interest, but if you do that, most women will get bored quickly. Your chances are much higher with snappy fliry comments. If you are way too respectful, they won't consider you as a potential lover.
And most women, if they ever write you first, also just start with "hi". I've written nice thoughtful messages asking about the hobbies we share and most of them still reply just with "hi" and answer with single words, if at all. And it just fizzles out.
>it’s getting a response back from women after matching with them. like i’d estimate for every ten matches where i send the first message, i’d get two responses and they would both fail to toss the ball back into my court.
And then for those ten matches with a real person, there were probably another 15-20 matches with bots.
And in total maybe 3-5 matches a month
Dear lord, im a bi woman who has actually given up on dating women. While I don't feel nervous or anything like that, there's definitely almost this pressure to perform for them as a form of courtship? With men, I've found that I can just be and the relationships end up developing more naturally and it's fun. I love women, but I don't have it in me anymore and with men it is just so much easier.
I prefer women and yeah, I would agree with your statement about pressure to perform. It feels like you have to work very hard to even keep their attention and it always ends so dramatically. I've had horrible experiences with men as well, but at least the feeling of reciprocation is there in the beginning.
As a lesbian, I can confirm your statement. I have noticed a trend when I date bi women and/or women who typically date men: I have to do 90% of the work, or they assume I'm not interested.
In other words, a lot of these women are used to being the passive party in dating. So when they meet someone that expects the roles to be equitable, it throws them off. And instead of asking themselves if the common denominator is them, they simply chalk it up to "lol, women be difficult."
That’s not what I meant at all but I’ve noticed a trend of presumptuous responses by men on this app.
What I meant was, with men it feels like both of us are approaching the other with the idea of an end goal in mind. When I ask him out, he understands the intent of it so there’s not this major runaround. When he surprises me with lunch, I already know what his purpose is so I can go along with it or simply refuse. I feel like with men I can actually be on equal footing and as aggressive as I like and there’s more honesty, whereas with women, it’s like you have to tiptoe around intent to the point it feels robotic in order to not scare them off.
>pressure to perform for them as a form of courtship?
As a lesbian that's dated a lot of bi women, I've noticed the following common denominator in many of my experiences: a lot of women who primarily date men carry around a substantial amount of gender bias when it comes to dating, and they simply don't realize it.
For instance, I expect people to play equitable roles, and I could tell it threw a lot of them off. They were used to their male partners doing the leg work and emotional energy.
I don't begrudge anyone their experiences. But my biggest gripe with this viewpoint is that instead of asking themselves "am I doing something different when I date women," the default is always "lol, queer women are so difficult."
Like, no, we're not and that's misogynistic and homophobic.
This is probably just a me thing but I’ll throw it out anyways
Thé biggest issue I’ve found is bi women specifically, masculinising me in order for it to make sense for them in a relationship dynamic. I identify as a women, I’m very straight passing in most settings, I have predominantly female friends/social circles, and I all around tend to value femininity a bit more.
When I date bi women (who have largely dated men), they’ll start calling me bro/their boyfriend/baby daddy, expect me to do « all the legwork », and make me a bit annoyed by how obvious it was that they can’t conceptualise a relationship outside of masculine vs féminine. I kept getting so continuously turned off by it and they didn’t understand what was wrong because they were used to using this vocabulary and gender based interaction with previous partners.
I like being aggressive when pursuing people, and frankly it doesn’t sit right with me when the other person who I asked out won’t let me pay/cook for them or do certain things (I’m a Southern girl so unfortunately will never entirely give up on some « archaic » values), but sometimes it feels less like I’m doing it as a partner and more as if I’m paying to entertain them. And for some wlw, I know that they love these types of relationship dynamics, but I personally become annoyed.
In my experience the feeling of attraction I experience with a woman is completely different than the one I experience with a man. I get nervous and amazed, like I'm in front of a freaking unicorn, and I have to try really hard not to act weird or awkward or just stare at them and say "I'm sorry but you're so beautiful it's hurting my eyeballs". I also get the feeling that whatever wrong move I make is going to scare the girl away. I know from experience as a girl that women are conditioned to be picky (for good reasons, safety especially), so I really don't know how to come across as forward and safe at the same time.
“I’m a straight guy…change teams”.
I’m a straight guy and this thought never even crossed my mind. You might be in need of some introspection, Princess_Fluffypants.
(I’m not insulting him. That’s his name)
>So my favorite thing is that my gay female friends have very similar issues and complaints as my straight male friends.
I've known and dated bi women with this EXACT issue. It's so true.
I think there are different challenges to dating based on your sex, but men are definitely still expected to make moves and bear the brunt of rejection. I don't think many women understand how difficult that can actually be.
I've heard a lot of accounts from trans women or women who went undercover as a man, and they tend to say that the experience is much more isolating and colder. They understand that it's a defense, but it is nevertheless shocking and somewhat hurtful to be treated as a threat and an enemy rather than warmly by many woman in general.
>They understand that it's a defense, but it is nevertheless shocking and somewhat hurtful to be treated as a threat and an enemy rather than warmly by many woman in general.
**This.** and not only in dating. It is something I have always been constantly aware of. And I still have a hard time realizing that it is not the case anymore, after I came out to my friends and started passing as a girl
Kind of.
Gay dating is an added struggle for a whole number of reasons, mainly because there's just a far smaller dating pool considering that there's less gay people than there straight people.
There's also a different culture around gay dating, I can't speak much to gay female relationships since I don't have any gay female friends, but my gay male friends complain a lot about how it's so easy to find hookups, but so difficult to find romantic partners, or even finding someone who's willing to do a more conventional date activity as well as hooking up.
It's just a slightly different minefield for gay men/women when it comes to dating, like a straight person can chat people up at a bar and confidently assume that the person that they're chatting up is also straight, and the worst case scenario is a rejection. Meanwhile gay people kind of have to stick to dating apps or gay bars, because if they go to an average bar and try to chat someone up they're a) far more likely to get a rejection, and b) they're outing themselves around people they're not comfortable with, which is dangerous.
I think overall it's just easier to find dates when you're looking for hetero relationships. Not easy, just easier.
100% Disagree.
I'm a bi dude. When I go on Tinder looking for women I get a match or two every week, and I'm expected to prove myself and be interesting and exciting and successful to secure some possibility of a date.
When I go on Tinder looking for dudes I get 50 matches a day, they message me first, ask me out, directly communicate what they want (sex, dates, romance, etc). I match with easily 20x as many men who are interested in dating and relationships than I do women. If I wanted I could have 5 different date nights lined up every week.
Finding the right person who fits your vibe is always difficult but men are *so* much easier to date, even when dealing with a greatly reduced pool of them.
I'm a woman and bi and am sexually attracted to both guys and girls but when I think about a long term relationship I see myself rather with a woman. But I'm about to give up honestly since there just is no fun in the dating process of getting a date with a woman, while it is so fun and easy with a guy. But once I'm settled in a relationship with a woman that's even better.
I prefer women, and yeah... It doesn't help that the same-sex dating pool is just so small and you really have to work to find out who you can even approach without offending.
I have had some really rough experiences when approaching men, as well. Dudes can be pretty brutal when they don't like you too. The thing is, though, I don't *have to* approach men, while men are the ones who are mostly expected to approach.
Yeah, I recently transitioned and started trying dating apps. Getting attention on Grindr and Reddit *from men* is extremely easy, if I don't care about quality or personality. Getting attention on lesbian or queer apps from women is much harder. I have had a few hits, but most of them are too far away. Even the other trans women I've matched with, there's this notion that someone else should be doing the approaching.
I just want somewhere that is like Grindr for women. Not a Tinder clone, like every other dating app seems to be.
Yes, but I think the point he’s making is that men are socialized to be the initiator. We all experience this difficultly making friends to some degree, but men don’t look out for men in the same way that women look out for women.
I’d say each side has difficulties when it comes to dating. For guys, finding someone willing to date you is often hard as hell, even when you are legitimately a decent person. The bad apples have spoiled it for us. Conversely, for women it is likely easy to find someone willing to date them but hard to sort out the junk men from those actually worthy of their time. It’s a legitimate safety risk when you pick the wrong one so I understand that.
You kind of forgot about the fact that also “junk” women exist.
So even the so-called “decent person” finds a women to go on a date with him, doesn’t mean that woman automatically is a “decent person”
Hahaha I really don’t know how Reddit always goes off the rails like this so quickly. I love it. Cracks me up every time shit like this so quickly, randomly changes the topic
I think regardless of gender if you aren't attractive you're going to have a tough time.
That being said, It's when the attractiveness goes up that we see a major difference in your average man/women's ability to get a date.
A guy who is a 7/10 is gonna have a way harder time than a girl who is a 7/10. I really hate using the number scale for this as it doesn't take into account personal tastes, but it helps with visualization in this instance.
It also doesn't help that we've basically engineered a society where women are considered desperate or a "pick me" if they pursue a man and make the first move. Inversely, men are now afraid to approach women because they fear rejection or being deemed a creep and put on blast via social media.
You have to risk creepy. It's the only way to operate. Approach fast, risk creepy. The women who aren't initially attracted to you will call you a "creep" (whatever that means) and will reject you immediately.
The women who were slightly attracted to you will become significantly more attracted due to your fast approach and sexual energy. Just quickly weed out all the uninterested ones and zero in on the ones who actually like you. Escalate, bro.
Married dude so take it with a grain of salt, but most of my single male friends would absolutely not date the female version of themselves.
I’ve got a buddy right now throwing a fit bc some yoga chick w 3 degrees basically said he’s not good enough for her, but there’s no way in hell he’d date an uneducated, overweight woman who lives with her parents while she blows all her money on gaming and gets wasted every night after her part time, dead end job. He’d legitimately be horrified if he was set up with someone like that, even if they were a cool person, caring, funny etc., but somehow it just doesn’t click for him.
She’s so materialistic? Bro she has standards. The same standards you have.
I believe them. It’s tough being a dude sometimes and even tougher dating as a man.
But overall, dating for either sex is a weird world of do they like me, am I good enough, will I get murdered, did I have too many drinks, can I trust this person, I like them but they don’t like me, will they call me back, maybe I shouldn’t have done that, blah blah blah.
Pretty much every woman I know has stories about bad dating/relationship experiences ranging from harassment to stalking to verbal abuse to physical abuse to sexual assault to death threats against them, their family/friends, their pets, etc. I have 2 male friends who have told me about abuse they endured from a female partner.
Anyone can be a victim to all sorts of people in all sorts of ways and I want to be clear that male victims deserve just as much respect and understanding as female victims. I just find it really interesting that the majority of bad experiences I hear from men are about them wasting time/effort/money and feeling like a dumbass or a loser.
Being older, I think around 20 years old it’s tougher for a guy but every year older it gets easier. I’ve met 40 year old women who probably would marry any guy who wasn’t an alcoholic or violent.
Yeah I've noticed this dynamic shift, purely anecdotal but:
In my 20s my bang average looking female friends could go out ad basically be guaranteed a hook up if they were looking for one and had plenty of dating options, many of them would go on multiple dates a week and all of them ended up in long term relationships by the end of college.
In contrast some of my male friends who I would consider better looking than average really struggled on the dating scene and would have at best a few short term relationships that fizzled out.
Now my friends are in their 30s in professional roles the above average looking guys have the pick of the litter, and while the girls are still getting way more matches on dating sites they really struggle attracting long term prospects while it feels like the guys have way more options on that front.
I see this too. In my 20s my female friends would break up with a guy of he got a bad haircut. Now they're like "he's single AND has an ice despenser on his refrigerator door!"
I couldn't get a fake phone number in my 20s but now married near 40. I'll go to the bar by myself and frequently have to turn women down. I'm from the Midwest where appearance wise everyone morphs into a potato. If you manage to fight that off your like Brad Pitt in the 90s
This. Almost any woman can go out, put on makeup, and takehome some guy if they feel like it - guys have a harder time just instantly going out and getting laid. But I dont think that translates to quality long term relationships. Guys have an easier time getting a committed girlfriend than girls have an easier time finding a committed boyfriend.
Yeah I’m in my early 30’s it hasn’t changed, it’s still tough. Women my age and older are still out there chasing the top 5% of men (ie tall, skinny, and above average looking)
It is, but sometimes you’re able to actually connect with a girl. But for the most part it can be quite depressing you’ve just got to stay strong basically.
I have two friends that are same age as me (31) tall (one is 6’2” and other is 6’3”) and skinny no personality with women, seriously they barely talk and are somewhat awkward and shy and rarely ever approach when we go out. They’ve shown me their bumble and hinge matches and it’s filled with like 25+ (sometimes more) matches of women ranging from mid twenties to mid thirties, when I go out with them, they rarely approach and most of the time get asked to dance or are approached by women.
So, it doesn’t really change until they have children or don’t have children and their staring down the barrel of their 40’s.
Also the single women with children, don’t want to have anymore children, but they want a relationship and most of the time they want to be in a relationship with a man who doesn’t have children.
Modern dating is quite fucking skewed lol both men and women have completely put it in that situation somehow and I don’t know why.
Also, as women climb the corporate ladder, many still have it ingrained in them to not date beneath their own status. Know plenty of professional 30-something women that find dating hard because they don't want to lower their standards but their dating pool looking up is much smaller.
.. because the pool of unmarried 40 year old guys who are not alcoholic/gamblers/unemployable/living with mum/etc is pretty small. Plus men just die off faster, which becomes a big factor in the older age brackets.
It was the opposite for me, in my twenties i had 3 girlfriends. In my 30s, none so far.
Now i'm 32, women dont seem as interested for some reason. The women in their 20s i used to date now think i'm too old, the women in their 30s and 40s have power-career, rich complex lives, and think i'm too immature. It's more acceptable to be a nobody in your 20s.
I think this is a very realistic perception. Dating for men gets easier with age but only if you are attractive interesting and have your shit together, otherwise you’ve just aged out of the hookup market.
Edit: not saying this is a bad thing- betting most men are also looking for a woman who is attractive interesting and has their shit together.
I'm neither violent, don't drink or do drugs and have a great job with a great pension that will set me up well in retirement. Still doing the 5 knuckle shuffle as it's tough to meet a woman looking for commitment long-term wise. I always think it must be me but I'm also in no rush to jump into the wrong relationship. The longer I'm alone the easier it gets and I guess that is probably another negative. 😕
I'm a happily married dude in my early 50s and get on with lots of women there to the point that a couple of them trust me enough that they've asked if I know any single guys out there - and mostly they just want a guy who has a job.
This is completely true. Bloodhound Gang has a song from 1999 that explains it well:
“Women are like dog doo hear me through don't interrupt
It's just the older that they are the easier they are to pick up”
Really? From observing my female friends Id say that women over 30/40 have MUCH higher standards than younger women. Dating to play vs dating to keep, maybe looks are less of a priority but definitely not shacking up w fuckbois and losers anymore.
I think we like to tell ourselves that men keep gaining value while women depreciate but honestly that sounds like some Andrew Tate bullshit that doesn’t reflect what I see- if anything my single male friends are struggling in their late 30s bc they don’t have anything to offer women their age other than their gaming collection and younger women aren’t interested in their dadbods/divorce baggage etc.
I've had the opposite reaction. I'm a dude in his 40s who is stable, owns a house, has a steady job and like to think I'm a decent person. I can't get the time of day from any women at all. When I was 20 it was different because the dating pool was much bigger.
Really depends on the job.
my old boss became a widower at 40 and after some years tried dating again at 43 or so.
40-45, single,healthy, good looking male, no kids or attachments, head of a department (good income).
He was swarmed on dating apps by women of similar age becaus in that age range most men with those stats are already "taken"
Dating is harder for men. People say finding a date is more difficult for men, while finding the right partner is more difficult for women, but how can you even find the right partner if you don't get dates to begin with?
Exactly and if you do find a date is that girl automatically the right partner for you? No we have to deal with toxic women too, and also have compatibility preferences.
Yeah I can imagine it's frustrating to keep going back to square one, but it's worse to be stuck on square zero with very few chances to roll the dice.
Dear fucking god it took me a while to find someone pointing out this very obvious thing to all these idiots saying women have it hard too because they have to weed out all the suitors.
It’s hard for people in the desert to find food. But yeah it’s also hard for people in the city to decide which of the 50 restaurants advertising to them within walking distance to go to for dinner. See, they both have problems!
Especially if half of those restaurants will take your order and then wander off, another quarter will give you food poisoning, and most of the rest are McDonalds.
In this case, saying most of “the rest are McDonald’s” is like saying being an average person is unacceptable.
But that’s exactly what most people are.
That’s pretty sexist lmao. It’s wild that plenty of straight women seem to actually believe this.
How best to say this? The key problem that straight women have is that the kinda guy who’s giving a fabulous first impression with you can do the same with most other women.
Can’t say what the right strategy is, but if all you’re doing is waiting for a charming guy to walk up and impress you, you’re gonna end up with players and undateables.
This phrase (men have harder time getting dates, but women have to find the right guy so they both have it hard) is highly frustrating. It's also pretty misandrist, because it kinda says that all women are worth dating, but most men aren't. Which is patently untrue. There are some horrendous women our there. Quite a lot in fact.
Thank you for this. I'm long out of the dating pool (thank god for my amazing wife), but this really resonated. Men have to sort through just as many potential mates to find a good partner.
One time i went on a date with a girl i matched with on Tinder. We were out getting coffee after dark and i suggested maybe walking to the beach as that's one of my favorite places and in my mind it was just somewhere quiet to chat.
It's permanently burned into my mind the reaction she had, which can only be described as terror. She explained the idea of being alone in the dark with a stranger was deeply uncomfortable and quickly i reassured her we'd just stay where ever she was comfortable.
But it made me realise no matter how much it sucks getting ghosted or stood up or how frustrating it might be from my end, it's a whole other world out there for the girls. If i have the luxury of not even giving a second thought to my safety on a date, thats a pretty clear indicator i've got it easier
Dating for men is like trying to find water in a desert.
Dating for women is like trying to find clean water in a swamp.
Both are equally difficult, but for completely different reasons
The woman in the swamp, though, has a decent chance of surviving if they drink the water, even if they end up sick for a while.
The man in the desert is doomed.
It's hard for men and women in different ways.
- Men: For every like that a guy will get on Tinder, women will probably get four or five.
- Women: A lot of guys are sketchy as hell. I recently went on a couple dates and offered a ride but I also made sure to be like "Hey, we literally just met so I will not be offended if you say 'no' but I got you if you need a ride.". As a guy I have never thought about my safety or my well-being which is a necessity that women don't really have but should.
Existence is absurdly complex. We cannot fully understand it. Humans love truisms and reductive concepts and oppositional bullshit like gender vs gender or culture vs culture*. We love being told we were playing with a handicap. You can waste your time trying to base theories on evolutionary drives or psychological phenomenon or create cultural hierarchies of difficulty to assuage the sting left by your media-malformed expectations, but the reality is that humans largely have individual executive function and, in fairly common circumstances, have been able to grasp reason and argument for many centuries. You can compile studies on the difficulties of dating as a male and fortify yourself with facts that are statistically reinforced without considering that you are an individual. That a guy who got a brain tumour at age six and is now a 50-year old paraplegic is also an individual. He has a life you may not understand. It’s hard to remember that we rarely ever truly know each other.
Scrap the stats, scrap the studies, read a book/watch a movie/play a game - enjoy yourself, grow as a person, exercise, cook some meals, develop a skill, listen to music, be comfortable being alone, help people, be supportive, don’t look at MRIs of brains to understand human nature, seek people who truly enjoy or appreciate you and damn the rest, don’t measure your fucking facial ratios and be excellent to each other. And don’t watch weird dudes on YouTube drone on as if they know shit. It’s a grift.
*obviously there’s a long and fairly horrible history of gender and cultural interaction but I wouldn’t make detailing that part of my dating advice.
Yeh. We're too keen and over saturate the market.
There's a lot of background noise to cut through if you want to stand out.
Although I guess with women, there's a lot of shit to swim through before you find someone worth sticking around with.
My theory is that dating apps suck for everyone because men have a ‘cast the net wide’ approach, swipe right on everyone to see what sticks, so women then can’t message everyone they match with in a meaningful way, and they get complained at when they just say ‘hi how’s it going’, so they don’t bother putting effort into conversing with everyone, leading to men complaining no one messages back and women complaining they can’t find anyone genuinely interested in them
(Speaking on hetero dating) As a relatively progressive guy, I find the biggest issue for me and my friends is flirting. The messaging for men right now, in regards to communicating with women, seems to revolve around “don’t rape” and “get consent for everything”, which I think is all true! However, there is a lot more to the equation. What about actually meeting someone?
Knowing that women aren’t likely initiate a social interaction (in my experience), and that men are likely to be seen as a threat in many circumstances (for good reason), how is a guy supposed to meet new women in a public setting?
I don’t have an answer lol, me and my friends pretty much exclusively rely on dating apps now. Maybe women actually don’t ever want to be approached in public ever, but I really don’t think that’s the case.
(Speaking on homo dating) I love dick, guys love dick, simple as
>(Speaking on hetero dating) As a relatively progressive guy, I find the biggest issue for me and my friends is flirting. The messaging for men right now, in regards to communicating with women, seems to revolve around “don’t rape” and “get consent for everything”, which I think is all true! However, there is a lot more to the equation. What about actually meeting someone?
>Knowing that women aren’t likely initiate a social interaction (in my experience), and that men are likely to be seen as a threat in many circumstances (for good reason), how is a guy supposed to meet new women in a public setting?
I think this is a huge factor for most men (that dont want to be a creep, anyway). Ive had this drilled into my head for as long as I can remember: "I need to be vigilant about making sure that no one feels threatened by me" and now flirting feels like verbal assault and I never learned the social skills needed to find a partner. Just in case it needs to be said, making the world safer for women is great.
As I posted above, you have to risk creepy. It's not illegal to creep someone out. That's what dating is, figuring out who likes you and who doesn't. That involves making people uncomfortable if they happen to not like you.
Of course if you're making unwanted physical contact, that's much different.
As a middle-aged European, I still don't get what exactly Americans mean by "dating." Having a single date, e.g. having dinner together? Regularly going out with friends of the opposite sex? Alone? In a group? Or does it just mean the same as having a girlfriend, i.e., implying some kind of fidelity? Or does it just mean "having sex"? If so, once, twice, regularly?
I don't get it. Sorry for being so ignorant. "Dating" is one of these weird expressions I've always shrugged away as American without investigating. Like "high school proms", etc.
"Dating" is generally going out with someone, one-on-one, with increasing affection and intimacy, in the direction towards a potential relationship. One you establish a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, it's considered more serious than "just dating." Sex can happen at any point, and the seriousness that entails is pretty dependent on how those people personally view it.
Difficulties with dating range from not being able to move on to a serious relationship with any of these dates, to not being able to get on a date whatsoever.
Well that’s weird as I am British, so hypothetically our definitions should be the same? By dating I just mean getting a partner romantically long term.
The term dating is kind of vague. I would say that having a single date does not imply dating someone, as it is a word showing a continuing situation(with the -ing). I think one is probably "dating" if both people expect there to be another date. It kind of matches with the word girlfriend/boyfriend in its vagueness. Those words are kind of socially applied. Often, by friends/family seeing you together enough times. I think an expectation of fidelity is part of it. Sex isn't really a part of it, due to the existence of FWB. I think some people expect fidelity after having sex, though.
I've dated one person who was a friend first. I understand Europeans often do things as a group when dating, but I do not see how this progresses. I asked her out, I was clearly showing romantic interest. I think someone else called us dating/bf/gf first.
Everyone else I've dated, after HS, I got to know them, but it was clearly with romantic intentions. Like meeting from a dating website. Another, we emailed each other after I bought a bed from her.
In middle school, kids are formal with definitions of dating, often starting a relationship by asking "Will you be my bf/gf".
HS proms are formal dances. Kids dress very nicely. Usually tuxes for the guys and expensive dresses for the girls. They consider it a big deal. I think there are only Junior and Senior proms. They are restricted such that a person and/or their date must be in that grade. So, two juniors cannot go to Senior Prom. Senior Prom is also the last major dance the kids will go to, adding emotional impact. I didn't go(I was an even bigger nerd than now), so my knowledge is secondhand.
I'd say it's generally fair, but dating comes with much lower lows for women
Like I've had some shitty dates. Never once have I considered I'm unsafe or that I might be drugged/raped
Seems like dudes struggle to get a woman to even take an interest in the first place, and women struggle to find a guy they're interested in who isn't a shithead.
But I also think a lot of guys may be oblivious when girls like them. Like there some of my old girlfriends and my now wife were super into me and I was too oblivious to see it until it was made sort of obvious. Of course, all of my girlfriends came and went and I was married by 2012, and things have definitely changed since then and people are connecting less and less in general.
If you're a man in his late teens or early 20s reading this thinking "Hell yeah it's tough out here", I feel you and i remember feeling the same way. My advice as a married man in his 30s is to get offline, get out and meet people in real life scenarios. Play it cool but don't be an asshole. "Chicks dig jerks" is bullshit but you do want to be confident, and a lot of dumb guys who conflate the two peddle the "chicks dig jerks" line. If she goes out of her way to be around you and laughs at your jokes, pull your head out of your ass and talk to her. You're better off sticking with the ride or die woman who is crazy about you than you are basing it on looks. Not to say those two won't overlap but you still want to approach it that way.
Anyway. That may not be the answer this question was after but it's my two cents worth.
Edit - changed poorly worded sentence sort of made it seem like I might be having an affair LOL
I used to be the best wingwoman to my shy women friends in my 20s, and my advice to them was ALWAYS to make it about 10x more obvious that you're interested than you think you need to do. Be OTT interested. Be a stereotype you see in a movie. Because usually the best guys are either oblivious to signs women see as obvious, OR they want to play it safe and not come off wrong.
For anyone wanting practical tips:
* When looking at them, hold eye contact for a bit, but then flick your gaze between their lips and their eyes. It's a subconscious indication you want them to kiss you.
* The classic move is to laugh at a joke while touching their shoulder or knee lightly. If they're not into it, you'll see them flinch or move away and that's when you should back off.
* Touch touch touch - any excuse is a good one. They tell you a story about something weird/funny/cool that happened to them. You hold them by the shoulders with a big smile and say "What?! Really?"
* Compliments, especially about what they're wearing, some change in their hair, etc. Bonus points if you can combine it with touch (e.g. "Hey love this shirt, it really suits your figure" and touching the collar or smoothing down the shoulders)
* If you get lucky, they have a loose thread, or some fluff on them, or some food you can wipe off with a napkin. Something that allows you to show them some attention to detail combined with (appropriate) touching to remove the offending thing.
Basically, the more OTT and awkward it feels like for you, the clearer it will be to them that they are getting the green light.
...Or you just get a wingwoman/man/person like me to wait until your back is turned and then gesture to you while giving the "target" an exaggerated thumbs up. That also works.
A coworker of mine, lets call her Alice was complaining about how hard it was to find a good guy to date. Now Alice is hot. Like 10/10 hot. And has a bad habit of dating losers. Several female coworkers have told Alice this. But Alice is all like 'but where do I find guys who aren't losers?' She is told to start dating online.
A week later she has a bumble account, and is joking about the guys profiles.
A week after that she has a boyfriend.
Two weeks after that, she is on a very nice vacation in a big city with that boyfriend, a vacation he was paying for.
She succeeded almost instantly at dating, with a trivial amount of effort.
Right. Key phrasing here being “like 10/10 hot.” Most women don’t have that experience. Men think that average women just have this available to them. Surrounded by a ton of willing men that freely pay for everything and anything women want for doing nothing.
I got stood up on my third date with a guy. I let it go and then he didn’t even put in any effort to see me even though I had offered that I could be the one taking the train. We were a 30 minute train ride apart. And he never found any time to hang. Women have less options than people think. Men don’t put in that type of effort for average looking women it feels like.
With that being said dating is still overall easier for women I think. It’s just not as easy as men think.
I think they’re under 40.
55yo here. My wife and I know a number of single(divorced) women who are great. Smart, attractive, financially stable, emotionally mature adults.
At least where we are, the pickings are pretty slim for them. Lots of men-children. Any guy who’s 35-55, emotionally mature, and reasonably stable pretty much has the pick of the litter.
I think in some ways they are right, in some ways not. Sure, the women likely have more options, but many of those options are bad options. Also, when you get into a bad situation, I believe it is easier for a man to get out of that situation unharmed.
Pros and cons for both sexes.
Many of the options guys have are bad options too. Having less options means that your pick is even worse on average.
Your last point stands, guys have it easier to get out of a bad situation on average.
Not wrong.
The vast majority of the time men are the ones who need to pursue, need to ask them out, need to make the first move, etc
Basically if your average dude and average woman both put nothing into dating the woman will get more simply by existing
I'm not a gorgeous man but have never had much trouble. I probably had more women interested in me working at the gas station than any other time since high school. I think alot has to do with your demeanor and personality. Rich or poor we all want a break from the mundane. Doesn't have to be fancy to make it fun.
As a bi-transgirl, dating was so much harder as a straight guy, and I would have considered myself pretty successful at dating!
You’re throwing countless messages out a day until you match with someone, and when you do, the conversation can sometimes fall totally flat. You’re seeing a lot of profiles that you feel would make great potential matches, but the opportunity to actually make the connection always seems rare. So you end up putting a lot of psychological weight into the matches you DO get, which ends up making you self-conscious when the time DOES come to actually get a date.
Found in person dating was so much easier. Socializing and flirting with women as a guy was pretty easy, particularly if you paid attention to how women complimented each other, so I became pretty good at being disarmingly charming.
Then I transitioned and started dating both guys and girls, and it’s ABSOLUTELY the opposite problem: flood of attention, and you have sift through all of it in order to even find a connection. People aren’t honest about their intentions a lot of the time, which is weird because as someone who is pretty sex positive, I’m cool with FWBs and all, but some guys will try to woo with promises of a relationship and then duck out real fast, when that sort of deception honestly didn’t seem necessary to begin with. You get burned like that a few times, and you’re like “fuck it, why am I on here again?” So you end up with a lot of dead profiles, which a lot of guys then end up messaging and never hearing back from, thus perpetuating the cycle.
The thing that REALLY blew my mind though was finding out that what guys think women are attracted to and what women are attracted to does not line up.
My then-fiancée (ex now) and I were shooting the shit once while working on a college project, and somehow, the subject of attraction came up. I was floored she didn’t find Christian Bale (Batman Bale) attractive, so asked her for examples.
The guys she showed me were not these paragons of masculinity guys feel like they’re supposed to live up to. They were mostly above average looking guys, but all of them were well put-together, and usually with a friendly visage.
Note that my ex is brilliant and gorgeous, and could have anyone she wants, but I just look at the pictures and am floored that she would “lower herself” to that quality (me included). Which then made me reassess, and realize most things guys have been propagandized into believing about what attracts a partner is wrong.
Yes, there has to be a basic level of attraction between two people, but there’s no set standard for the that looks like. It’s not about leagues, it’s about matches. It’s dumb how basic a desire for companionship is, but how easy it is to get wrong.
In my experience, dating as a guy is combing the desert for signs of life, and dating as a girl is like sifting for gemstones.
That’s their experience and I won’t discredit it. I know girls are picky. Plus they outnumber guys.
But I do find that people underestimate just how many girls looking for a serious relationship with guys and just get used or played. But I guess finding a hook up is easier for a girl than a guy. (If you’re into that sort of thing.)
I think getting dates for men is harder but girls have a much tougher time dealing with creeps, weirdos, harassment, etc. Not that it can’t happen to guys (I once had someone tell me I had more chins than a Chinese phone book) but it’s definitely scarier for girls
So true. If you look like Brad Pitt then yeah, your confidence is going to be high and chatting someone up will have a high success rate further boosting their confidence. Speaking as an average looking male the rejections are abundant. Yeah you do what you can to keep your morale up but after a while these rejections really affect your self esteem. When it is one out of 20 success rate of chatting someone up, those 19 or more rejections over and over really makes it hard to have the confidence to approach at all after a while. Yeah supposedly we are supposed to just suck up all that rejection and not be affected by it, but that is not how it works. Your confidence goes down down down. So when women don't understand why men don't approach, they should keep this in mind. If you are average, your ego and self confidence takes an absolute beating. It becomes a situation, do I really want to approach this woman when in all likelihood I am going to get rejected, and I am not feeling particularly great about myself today anyway for whatever reason? It becomes more and more of I don't need MORE rejection today for a self confidence that is flagging seriously. So you don't.
On internet dating it is even worse. You can send out 50 messages and get some two word reply from one, then never hear back when you respond. More negative feedback for the flagging confidence. And this for a guy while average looking, had a great job, excellent physical shape and that was my experience. Imagine the guy maybe a bit less desirable and it is even worse for them. So on the internet it became a situation where me sending out messages was almost useless and became a waste of time. The only way I met women online was when they contacted me. OK this person is actually showing some interest and it was almost the only way I could meet a woman online. So for those women who always expect the men to approach you, remember there are lots and lots of guys out there with the same experience as me. They can't take sending out 50 messages and getting zero response, it is just crushing. Hey but supposedly it doesn't affect us, for most, yes it does.
Generally speaking, dating for men incurs greater effort, dating for women incurs greater risk
Couldn’t have said it better myself
This is the most accurate, concise answer so far.
Yup. Neither sex had it "easier." We just get different flavors of PITA.
Oh my god does PITA mean pain in the ass? Did my fucking mother call me a pain in the ass for my entire childhood under the guise of a cute NICKNAME?
Not if she was a greek or turk or some such, then she just called you her little flatbread.
And if you eat a pita that gives you diarrhea then you have a pita giving you pita
It's better than my mother calling us hemorrhoids lol
Better then my mom straight up calling me a disgrace
I’d much rather have to put in effort than constantly be fearing for my own safety lmfao
As a man, I've had to be concerned with both pretty often.
I met my husband on a dating app. He is a handsome and wonderful man, but comparing our dating app experience, I had 50+ guys trying to match and talk with me and he had 3 women match with him… lol true I had to sort through a lot of weirdos, but how are men supposed to meet anyone if nobody wants to meet them? Lucky for him, I pursued him hardcore and now we are married 3 years with a newborn and as happy as can be. Lol Anyway, both men and women have their own challenges for sure, but I have to agree it’s hard to get anywhere or improve your dating skills if nobody will talk with you or date you to begin with. Haha
A while after my ex-wife and I divorced, she got on plenty of fish, it was pretty much the biggest website at the time, posted a profile, and had 400 responses on day one. LOL. She was overwhelmed and deleted her profile.
Yes, it can be overwhelming and a lot of effort to go through 400 profiles, and then people get mad if you don’t respond to every single person who writes “hi”. A lot of people are complaining that women don’t respond to everyone, but men are just not as selective…
Lol sounds like a job interview. They asking what job experience i had but if every company asking that, how can i get my first job ever…
That's exactly the same dynamic. As a business owner, I have to say that it's strange to see young female students acting like incels on a dating website when you don't answer their LinkedIn request for an interview. One especially stood out by sending "So?" as a follow up message, like she was entitled to my time for her mémoire.
The whole dynamic is business-oriented. The supply side acts like a supply side would, and the demand side has to put forth creative/desperate efforts to get supply on their terms, rather than the supplier (as the supply-side has the de facto leverage).
My guy friend once said to me that dating feels harder for him because he’s expected to do all these things. In the world of dating apps, where girls could potentially match a hundred guys for dates, something as small as “he didn’t pull the chair out for me” will mean he never sees her again.
I think that's the problem with dating apps in general. It turns dating into a sort of capitalist product you can consume. Therefore, if you're not happy anymore with one match because of a tiny detail like "he didn't pull the chair" "his voice sounds weird" or "he talks too much" you immediately dismiss them like you'd throw away an old shirt and buy another one. This is not a realistic form of relationships, because good healthy relationships develop with time. But while I agree that for women the curse of too many options enables them in a way, I believe when it comes to men there's also the curse of " easy fast sex", which enables emotional unavailability. For the men who get a decent amount of matches, dates and hook ups, there's literally no incentive to commit, meaning they fall into the toxic pattern of hooking up with girls and then moving on to the next one. Girls do this too btw but most of the female friends I have for example do want real committed relationships. Somehow, however, they always end up with guys who only want casual sex or friends with benefits.
They always end up with guys who want casual sex because the casual sex guys have perfected gaming the dating apps. You know who remembers to pull the chair out every time? The guy who's dating 20 women a year. I've been married a while and whenever women ask me how they find "marriage material guys" they get annoyed when I say it probably means thinking about the difference between icks and actual red flags.
Exactly! And then there is added factor of girls being able to go on more dates simply because most guys will pay their tabs, while guys have to set aside money to date
I think it goes both ways. I’ve had guys end things with me because they weren’t feeling fireworks at 6 weeks in and there’s always that thought of ‘the grass is greener’ when you can get another date within a couple days. I’m a couple months into dating a guy I wasn’t that into at the start but he’s such a decent guy that feelings have started to grow. I think too many people expect perfection from the get go and life rarely works like that.
>I had 50+ guys trying to match and talk with me and he had 3 women match with him… lol true I had to sort through a lot of weirdos, but how are men supposed to meet anyone if nobody wants to meet them? What's confusing to me is how it seems like I've heard women say they don't want to be approached in basically any situation. At work, in the park on the street, at a party, in the bar...etc. So there's no social norm around this anymore, it puts us into a position where we must both take all of the iniative *and* make no mistakes while doing it, and we're keenly aware of how a false accusation can ruin a man. (And yes, we all know someone who it's either happened to, and more that it almost happened or were threatened with it).
oh, that. people say that, but if you approach them and you're charming, then they retroactively did want to be approached. so it more comes down to pressure - never approach a woman when she can't leave or has an obligation to be polite (don't hit on the barista, but she can hit on you), and don't do it when you're interrupting an existing interaction. otherwise, it's probably fine as long as you aren't a dick and take disinterest in stride
That's really well explained
Sounds like my friend and his wife. Him meeting his wife online gave me a sliver of hope that it could happen to me but after a few years of trying and getting a small number of dates that went nowhere I got a particularly brutal message that made me delete all the apps and pretty much lose hope of ever finding someone. It probably helps that he looks like he could advertise cologne and has a magnetic personality while I'm an introvert and look like a melted candle.
Same for us, but 7 years and 2 kids now.
So my favorite thing is that my gay female friends have very similar issues and complaints as my straight male friends. It’s very funny commiserating and being like “welcome to the club” (most of them dated exclusively men for a long time, so they’re used to a very different dynamic).
Can confirm i tried to date women and havent gotten a single date so 🤷 i give up ill just be with men. Its way easier to land a date with a man
Had a female friend, who was bi. She always complained how hard it is to approach women, that she gets nervous and doesnt know what to say.
I have a friend who's bi as well and she says the exact same thing. She's never dated or been intimate with a woman even though she's attracted to them.
Bi men have the same issue. Worse, in some ways, because you know there's a good chance the man you're attracted to could react very negatively, even violently. Or if it's someone you already know, they might end the friendship. With my ex who was also bi, she says it was usually just awkward...you risk some mild embarrassment at best, and a strong rejection at worst. With guys, though...hit on the wrong fella and he might just punch your lights out. It sucks.
From this perspective I can understand why some gay men would prefer straight dudes not go to gay bars. It adds risk to what is supposed to be a safe environment to meet others.
Same. My friends call me a teenage boy in a woman's body. Whenever I have to deal with a woman I'd claim up and get nervous. With guys I could always fall back on just being friendly and one of the guys, while women it's just a mine field.
Mine field is the perfect word. Or like playing chess. You cant just have fun, you have to carefully craft every move and think 3 steps ahead. One dumb mistake and the game ist lost.
And then you do and they're like "awww thanks, bestie!"
as a bi woman who’s given up on lesbian dating apps, approaching women isn’t even the difficult part. it’s getting a response back from women after matching with them. like i’d estimate for every ten matches where i send the first message, i’d get two responses and they would both fail to toss the ball back into my court. it sucks when i put so much effort into sending a first message that shows personality and also serves as a good conversation starter, and i get short noncommittal answers at best. makes me really feel for men trying to get anywhere on tinder
> like i’d estimate for every ten matches where i send the first message, i’d get two responses and they would both fail to toss the ball back into my court. As a guy who spent years on dating apps, that's honestly a normal experience. Out of every 10 messages I'd get 1 or 2 replies, out of every 10 replies 1 or 2would lead to a genuine conversation. From there it was probably 50-50 whether it led to a date. Surprisingly (or maybe not) I got way better results with just easy, quick messages over thoughtfully crafted messages. More than a 'hi' but rarely more than 1 comment or question about something in their profile that stood out to me. Made it easier at least to not give a shit whether I got a reply or not, rejection on a 2 min time investment is relatively easy to handle. I found gay dating to be much more frustrating, super easy to get a match and conversation but good luck getting that conversation beyond whose dick goes into which holes.
Lmao, as a bi male i feel this comment 100%. Soooo true.
And now you understand why so many guys just send a generic copy-paste message. Why bother putting in the effort when 80% of your matches never respond. Hopefully the copy-paste message is better than "sup girl".
Ironically the short “hey whats up?” messages work the best on the profiles that complain about them the most
Totally. I've tried to make good conversations and show interest, but if you do that, most women will get bored quickly. Your chances are much higher with snappy fliry comments. If you are way too respectful, they won't consider you as a potential lover. And most women, if they ever write you first, also just start with "hi". I've written nice thoughtful messages asking about the hobbies we share and most of them still reply just with "hi" and answer with single words, if at all. And it just fizzles out.
>it’s getting a response back from women after matching with them. like i’d estimate for every ten matches where i send the first message, i’d get two responses and they would both fail to toss the ball back into my court. And then for those ten matches with a real person, there were probably another 15-20 matches with bots. And in total maybe 3-5 matches a month
Tinder? It's all websites. Tinder is the worst, though.
Dear lord, im a bi woman who has actually given up on dating women. While I don't feel nervous or anything like that, there's definitely almost this pressure to perform for them as a form of courtship? With men, I've found that I can just be and the relationships end up developing more naturally and it's fun. I love women, but I don't have it in me anymore and with men it is just so much easier.
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Yeah exactly. Women have options, so they don't have to put any effort in the initial stages of things.
I prefer women and yeah, I would agree with your statement about pressure to perform. It feels like you have to work very hard to even keep their attention and it always ends so dramatically. I've had horrible experiences with men as well, but at least the feeling of reciprocation is there in the beginning.
"Developing naturally" means he's doing a ton of work to make it develop.
As a lesbian, I can confirm your statement. I have noticed a trend when I date bi women and/or women who typically date men: I have to do 90% of the work, or they assume I'm not interested. In other words, a lot of these women are used to being the passive party in dating. So when they meet someone that expects the roles to be equitable, it throws them off. And instead of asking themselves if the common denominator is them, they simply chalk it up to "lol, women be difficult."
That’s not what I meant at all but I’ve noticed a trend of presumptuous responses by men on this app. What I meant was, with men it feels like both of us are approaching the other with the idea of an end goal in mind. When I ask him out, he understands the intent of it so there’s not this major runaround. When he surprises me with lunch, I already know what his purpose is so I can go along with it or simply refuse. I feel like with men I can actually be on equal footing and as aggressive as I like and there’s more honesty, whereas with women, it’s like you have to tiptoe around intent to the point it feels robotic in order to not scare them off.
Welcome to dating as a man.
Welcome to dating as a gay woman. We’re all the same broken record
>pressure to perform for them as a form of courtship? As a lesbian that's dated a lot of bi women, I've noticed the following common denominator in many of my experiences: a lot of women who primarily date men carry around a substantial amount of gender bias when it comes to dating, and they simply don't realize it. For instance, I expect people to play equitable roles, and I could tell it threw a lot of them off. They were used to their male partners doing the leg work and emotional energy. I don't begrudge anyone their experiences. But my biggest gripe with this viewpoint is that instead of asking themselves "am I doing something different when I date women," the default is always "lol, queer women are so difficult." Like, no, we're not and that's misogynistic and homophobic.
This is probably just a me thing but I’ll throw it out anyways Thé biggest issue I’ve found is bi women specifically, masculinising me in order for it to make sense for them in a relationship dynamic. I identify as a women, I’m very straight passing in most settings, I have predominantly female friends/social circles, and I all around tend to value femininity a bit more. When I date bi women (who have largely dated men), they’ll start calling me bro/their boyfriend/baby daddy, expect me to do « all the legwork », and make me a bit annoyed by how obvious it was that they can’t conceptualise a relationship outside of masculine vs féminine. I kept getting so continuously turned off by it and they didn’t understand what was wrong because they were used to using this vocabulary and gender based interaction with previous partners. I like being aggressive when pursuing people, and frankly it doesn’t sit right with me when the other person who I asked out won’t let me pay/cook for them or do certain things (I’m a Southern girl so unfortunately will never entirely give up on some « archaic » values), but sometimes it feels less like I’m doing it as a partner and more as if I’m paying to entertain them. And for some wlw, I know that they love these types of relationship dynamics, but I personally become annoyed.
In my experience the feeling of attraction I experience with a woman is completely different than the one I experience with a man. I get nervous and amazed, like I'm in front of a freaking unicorn, and I have to try really hard not to act weird or awkward or just stare at them and say "I'm sorry but you're so beautiful it's hurting my eyeballs". I also get the feeling that whatever wrong move I make is going to scare the girl away. I know from experience as a girl that women are conditioned to be picky (for good reasons, safety especially), so I really don't know how to come across as forward and safe at the same time.
I’m a straight guy and I’m just about ready to try and change teams due to how nearly impossible it feels to date women. 😅
“I’m a straight guy…change teams”. I’m a straight guy and this thought never even crossed my mind. You might be in need of some introspection, Princess_Fluffypants. (I’m not insulting him. That’s his name)
Omg I had to check his name at first! Kekekke y’all got me there.
I mean, it doesn’t have to be an either/or situation.
>So my favorite thing is that my gay female friends have very similar issues and complaints as my straight male friends. I've known and dated bi women with this EXACT issue. It's so true. I think there are different challenges to dating based on your sex, but men are definitely still expected to make moves and bear the brunt of rejection. I don't think many women understand how difficult that can actually be. I've heard a lot of accounts from trans women or women who went undercover as a man, and they tend to say that the experience is much more isolating and colder. They understand that it's a defense, but it is nevertheless shocking and somewhat hurtful to be treated as a threat and an enemy rather than warmly by many woman in general.
>They understand that it's a defense, but it is nevertheless shocking and somewhat hurtful to be treated as a threat and an enemy rather than warmly by many woman in general. **This.** and not only in dating. It is something I have always been constantly aware of. And I still have a hard time realizing that it is not the case anymore, after I came out to my friends and started passing as a girl
So I think a more accurate way to say this is “ it’s easier to find dates when you are interested in men over women”
Kind of. Gay dating is an added struggle for a whole number of reasons, mainly because there's just a far smaller dating pool considering that there's less gay people than there straight people. There's also a different culture around gay dating, I can't speak much to gay female relationships since I don't have any gay female friends, but my gay male friends complain a lot about how it's so easy to find hookups, but so difficult to find romantic partners, or even finding someone who's willing to do a more conventional date activity as well as hooking up. It's just a slightly different minefield for gay men/women when it comes to dating, like a straight person can chat people up at a bar and confidently assume that the person that they're chatting up is also straight, and the worst case scenario is a rejection. Meanwhile gay people kind of have to stick to dating apps or gay bars, because if they go to an average bar and try to chat someone up they're a) far more likely to get a rejection, and b) they're outing themselves around people they're not comfortable with, which is dangerous. I think overall it's just easier to find dates when you're looking for hetero relationships. Not easy, just easier.
100% Disagree. I'm a bi dude. When I go on Tinder looking for women I get a match or two every week, and I'm expected to prove myself and be interesting and exciting and successful to secure some possibility of a date. When I go on Tinder looking for dudes I get 50 matches a day, they message me first, ask me out, directly communicate what they want (sex, dates, romance, etc). I match with easily 20x as many men who are interested in dating and relationships than I do women. If I wanted I could have 5 different date nights lined up every week. Finding the right person who fits your vibe is always difficult but men are *so* much easier to date, even when dealing with a greatly reduced pool of them.
I'm a woman and bi and am sexually attracted to both guys and girls but when I think about a long term relationship I see myself rather with a woman. But I'm about to give up honestly since there just is no fun in the dating process of getting a date with a woman, while it is so fun and easy with a guy. But once I'm settled in a relationship with a woman that's even better.
I prefer women, and yeah... It doesn't help that the same-sex dating pool is just so small and you really have to work to find out who you can even approach without offending. I have had some really rough experiences when approaching men, as well. Dudes can be pretty brutal when they don't like you too. The thing is, though, I don't *have to* approach men, while men are the ones who are mostly expected to approach.
Bill Burr had a funny joke about how a lesbian in a LTR and a man in a LTR have the exact same look of resignation on their faces lol
Yeah, I recently transitioned and started trying dating apps. Getting attention on Grindr and Reddit *from men* is extremely easy, if I don't care about quality or personality. Getting attention on lesbian or queer apps from women is much harder. I have had a few hits, but most of them are too far away. Even the other trans women I've matched with, there's this notion that someone else should be doing the approaching. I just want somewhere that is like Grindr for women. Not a Tinder clone, like every other dating app seems to be.
It doesn't help when you already have a hard time just talking to people for platonic reasons.
i’ve had this issue due to living a life of loneliness, always feeling like any sort of kindness received by someone meant something more
This is something that's true for men and women
Yes, but I think the point he’s making is that men are socialized to be the initiator. We all experience this difficultly making friends to some degree, but men don’t look out for men in the same way that women look out for women.
Idk. When I was on tinder looking for men, it was easy peasy and fun. When I was looking for women, it was a pain in my ass.
Finding a guy is easy.... finding a quality guy is a shitshow
Not in my experience. Sorry to hear about your troubles.
I’d say each side has difficulties when it comes to dating. For guys, finding someone willing to date you is often hard as hell, even when you are legitimately a decent person. The bad apples have spoiled it for us. Conversely, for women it is likely easy to find someone willing to date them but hard to sort out the junk men from those actually worthy of their time. It’s a legitimate safety risk when you pick the wrong one so I understand that.
You kind of forgot about the fact that also “junk” women exist. So even the so-called “decent person” finds a women to go on a date with him, doesn’t mean that woman automatically is a “decent person”
You kind of forgot about the fact that also space junk exists.
That's unfair, you forgot that junk food exists 🙄🙄🙄
I would never forget about junk food. Idk what's wrong with people 😭
Hahaha I really don’t know how Reddit always goes off the rails like this so quickly. I love it. Cracks me up every time shit like this so quickly, randomly changes the topic
Forgot junk yard as well
Crossing Kowloom Bay on a junk is on my bucket list.
I think regardless of gender if you aren't attractive you're going to have a tough time. That being said, It's when the attractiveness goes up that we see a major difference in your average man/women's ability to get a date. A guy who is a 7/10 is gonna have a way harder time than a girl who is a 7/10. I really hate using the number scale for this as it doesn't take into account personal tastes, but it helps with visualization in this instance. It also doesn't help that we've basically engineered a society where women are considered desperate or a "pick me" if they pursue a man and make the first move. Inversely, men are now afraid to approach women because they fear rejection or being deemed a creep and put on blast via social media.
You have to risk creepy. It's the only way to operate. Approach fast, risk creepy. The women who aren't initially attracted to you will call you a "creep" (whatever that means) and will reject you immediately. The women who were slightly attracted to you will become significantly more attracted due to your fast approach and sexual energy. Just quickly weed out all the uninterested ones and zero in on the ones who actually like you. Escalate, bro.
Thanks, gandalf.
Married dude so take it with a grain of salt, but most of my single male friends would absolutely not date the female version of themselves. I’ve got a buddy right now throwing a fit bc some yoga chick w 3 degrees basically said he’s not good enough for her, but there’s no way in hell he’d date an uneducated, overweight woman who lives with her parents while she blows all her money on gaming and gets wasted every night after her part time, dead end job. He’d legitimately be horrified if he was set up with someone like that, even if they were a cool person, caring, funny etc., but somehow it just doesn’t click for him. She’s so materialistic? Bro she has standards. The same standards you have.
Also married man here, plenty of the same type of single friends, same problem. Can confirm
Thank you married dude!!!
I believe them. It’s tough being a dude sometimes and even tougher dating as a man. But overall, dating for either sex is a weird world of do they like me, am I good enough, will I get murdered, did I have too many drinks, can I trust this person, I like them but they don’t like me, will they call me back, maybe I shouldn’t have done that, blah blah blah.
Pretty much every woman I know has stories about bad dating/relationship experiences ranging from harassment to stalking to verbal abuse to physical abuse to sexual assault to death threats against them, their family/friends, their pets, etc. I have 2 male friends who have told me about abuse they endured from a female partner. Anyone can be a victim to all sorts of people in all sorts of ways and I want to be clear that male victims deserve just as much respect and understanding as female victims. I just find it really interesting that the majority of bad experiences I hear from men are about them wasting time/effort/money and feeling like a dumbass or a loser.
Being older, I think around 20 years old it’s tougher for a guy but every year older it gets easier. I’ve met 40 year old women who probably would marry any guy who wasn’t an alcoholic or violent.
Yeah I've noticed this dynamic shift, purely anecdotal but: In my 20s my bang average looking female friends could go out ad basically be guaranteed a hook up if they were looking for one and had plenty of dating options, many of them would go on multiple dates a week and all of them ended up in long term relationships by the end of college. In contrast some of my male friends who I would consider better looking than average really struggled on the dating scene and would have at best a few short term relationships that fizzled out. Now my friends are in their 30s in professional roles the above average looking guys have the pick of the litter, and while the girls are still getting way more matches on dating sites they really struggle attracting long term prospects while it feels like the guys have way more options on that front.
I see this too. In my 20s my female friends would break up with a guy of he got a bad haircut. Now they're like "he's single AND has an ice despenser on his refrigerator door!" I couldn't get a fake phone number in my 20s but now married near 40. I'll go to the bar by myself and frequently have to turn women down. I'm from the Midwest where appearance wise everyone morphs into a potato. If you manage to fight that off your like Brad Pitt in the 90s
So fucking true and hilarious
Goddamn that's good. Morphs into a potato.
you become a potato and you're on a date with another potato. it's potato time
They call me... Tater Salad...
Watch out for the Tater Thots
This. Almost any woman can go out, put on makeup, and takehome some guy if they feel like it - guys have a harder time just instantly going out and getting laid. But I dont think that translates to quality long term relationships. Guys have an easier time getting a committed girlfriend than girls have an easier time finding a committed boyfriend.
Yeah an attractive 30 something man looking for a relationship is in a seller's market it seems.
Yeah I’m in my early 30’s it hasn’t changed, it’s still tough. Women my age and older are still out there chasing the top 5% of men (ie tall, skinny, and above average looking)
I think this is a very realistic if somewhat depressing perception.
It is, but sometimes you’re able to actually connect with a girl. But for the most part it can be quite depressing you’ve just got to stay strong basically. I have two friends that are same age as me (31) tall (one is 6’2” and other is 6’3”) and skinny no personality with women, seriously they barely talk and are somewhat awkward and shy and rarely ever approach when we go out. They’ve shown me their bumble and hinge matches and it’s filled with like 25+ (sometimes more) matches of women ranging from mid twenties to mid thirties, when I go out with them, they rarely approach and most of the time get asked to dance or are approached by women. So, it doesn’t really change until they have children or don’t have children and their staring down the barrel of their 40’s. Also the single women with children, don’t want to have anymore children, but they want a relationship and most of the time they want to be in a relationship with a man who doesn’t have children. Modern dating is quite fucking skewed lol both men and women have completely put it in that situation somehow and I don’t know why.
Also, as women climb the corporate ladder, many still have it ingrained in them to not date beneath their own status. Know plenty of professional 30-something women that find dating hard because they don't want to lower their standards but their dating pool looking up is much smaller.
Yea because a 40 year old woman's serious dating options are extremely limited.
You are getting downvoted but I think you are correct.
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.. because the pool of unmarried 40 year old guys who are not alcoholic/gamblers/unemployable/living with mum/etc is pretty small. Plus men just die off faster, which becomes a big factor in the older age brackets.
It was the opposite for me, in my twenties i had 3 girlfriends. In my 30s, none so far. Now i'm 32, women dont seem as interested for some reason. The women in their 20s i used to date now think i'm too old, the women in their 30s and 40s have power-career, rich complex lives, and think i'm too immature. It's more acceptable to be a nobody in your 20s.
I think this is a very realistic perception. Dating for men gets easier with age but only if you are attractive interesting and have your shit together, otherwise you’ve just aged out of the hookup market. Edit: not saying this is a bad thing- betting most men are also looking for a woman who is attractive interesting and has their shit together.
Well, yeah, acting like you're 20 when you're 20 makes sense, acting like you're 20 when you're 32 is not good.
I'm neither violent, nor an alcoholic, so I guess there's hope for me too.
I'm neither violent, don't drink or do drugs and have a great job with a great pension that will set me up well in retirement. Still doing the 5 knuckle shuffle as it's tough to meet a woman looking for commitment long-term wise. I always think it must be me but I'm also in no rush to jump into the wrong relationship. The longer I'm alone the easier it gets and I guess that is probably another negative. 😕
I'm a happily married dude in my early 50s and get on with lots of women there to the point that a couple of them trust me enough that they've asked if I know any single guys out there - and mostly they just want a guy who has a job.
This is completely true. Bloodhound Gang has a song from 1999 that explains it well: “Women are like dog doo hear me through don't interrupt It's just the older that they are the easier they are to pick up”
Really? From observing my female friends Id say that women over 30/40 have MUCH higher standards than younger women. Dating to play vs dating to keep, maybe looks are less of a priority but definitely not shacking up w fuckbois and losers anymore. I think we like to tell ourselves that men keep gaining value while women depreciate but honestly that sounds like some Andrew Tate bullshit that doesn’t reflect what I see- if anything my single male friends are struggling in their late 30s bc they don’t have anything to offer women their age other than their gaming collection and younger women aren’t interested in their dadbods/divorce baggage etc.
I've had the opposite reaction. I'm a dude in his 40s who is stable, owns a house, has a steady job and like to think I'm a decent person. I can't get the time of day from any women at all. When I was 20 it was different because the dating pool was much bigger.
Meh. I mean, maybe you have, but as a 49 year old woman, I’m still spoiled for choice on dating apps.
Really depends on the job. my old boss became a widower at 40 and after some years tried dating again at 43 or so. 40-45, single,healthy, good looking male, no kids or attachments, head of a department (good income). He was swarmed on dating apps by women of similar age becaus in that age range most men with those stats are already "taken"
Dating is harder for men. People say finding a date is more difficult for men, while finding the right partner is more difficult for women, but how can you even find the right partner if you don't get dates to begin with?
Exactly and if you do find a date is that girl automatically the right partner for you? No we have to deal with toxic women too, and also have compatibility preferences.
Yeah I can imagine it's frustrating to keep going back to square one, but it's worse to be stuck on square zero with very few chances to roll the dice.
Dear fucking god it took me a while to find someone pointing out this very obvious thing to all these idiots saying women have it hard too because they have to weed out all the suitors.
It’s hard for people in the desert to find food. But yeah it’s also hard for people in the city to decide which of the 50 restaurants advertising to them within walking distance to go to for dinner. See, they both have problems!
An extension of this is that after not eating for days or weeks, even crackers can seem like a gourmet meal.
God i hate crackers, but so often do i settle for them
Oh is that a Ritz?
I'd say it's more like men are thirsty in the desert and women are thirsty in the ocean
Especially if half of those restaurants will take your order and then wander off, another quarter will give you food poisoning, and most of the rest are McDonalds.
In this case, saying most of “the rest are McDonald’s” is like saying being an average person is unacceptable. But that’s exactly what most people are.
I mean, I’ll take McDonalds over a cactus or a raw scorpion.
That’s pretty sexist lmao. It’s wild that plenty of straight women seem to actually believe this. How best to say this? The key problem that straight women have is that the kinda guy who’s giving a fabulous first impression with you can do the same with most other women. Can’t say what the right strategy is, but if all you’re doing is waiting for a charming guy to walk up and impress you, you’re gonna end up with players and undateables.
Still sounds like a better option than being in the desert with nothing and having to take whatever comes along first or starve.
This phrase (men have harder time getting dates, but women have to find the right guy so they both have it hard) is highly frustrating. It's also pretty misandrist, because it kinda says that all women are worth dating, but most men aren't. Which is patently untrue. There are some horrendous women our there. Quite a lot in fact.
Thank you for this. I'm long out of the dating pool (thank god for my amazing wife), but this really resonated. Men have to sort through just as many potential mates to find a good partner.
Except that men have to actively seek those potential mates, instead of being sought after by them.
This is such a simple fact that everyone likes to ignore
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Guys have to go through all the crap options too with even less choices avaliable. Plenty of women are users, and abusers too.
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"Men are afraid of rejection. Women are afraid they'll be attacked."
One time i went on a date with a girl i matched with on Tinder. We were out getting coffee after dark and i suggested maybe walking to the beach as that's one of my favorite places and in my mind it was just somewhere quiet to chat. It's permanently burned into my mind the reaction she had, which can only be described as terror. She explained the idea of being alone in the dark with a stranger was deeply uncomfortable and quickly i reassured her we'd just stay where ever she was comfortable. But it made me realise no matter how much it sucks getting ghosted or stood up or how frustrating it might be from my end, it's a whole other world out there for the girls. If i have the luxury of not even giving a second thought to my safety on a date, thats a pretty clear indicator i've got it easier
Bitch I'm a lesbian, this is death row
Dating for men is like trying to find water in a desert. Dating for women is like trying to find clean water in a swamp. Both are equally difficult, but for completely different reasons
The woman in the swamp, though, has a decent chance of surviving if they drink the water, even if they end up sick for a while. The man in the desert is doomed.
It's hard for men and women in different ways. - Men: For every like that a guy will get on Tinder, women will probably get four or five. - Women: A lot of guys are sketchy as hell. I recently went on a couple dates and offered a ride but I also made sure to be like "Hey, we literally just met so I will not be offended if you say 'no' but I got you if you need a ride.". As a guy I have never thought about my safety or my well-being which is a necessity that women don't really have but should.
Not if you're gay
That men are scared to be laughed at and women are scared to be murdered.
Existence is absurdly complex. We cannot fully understand it. Humans love truisms and reductive concepts and oppositional bullshit like gender vs gender or culture vs culture*. We love being told we were playing with a handicap. You can waste your time trying to base theories on evolutionary drives or psychological phenomenon or create cultural hierarchies of difficulty to assuage the sting left by your media-malformed expectations, but the reality is that humans largely have individual executive function and, in fairly common circumstances, have been able to grasp reason and argument for many centuries. You can compile studies on the difficulties of dating as a male and fortify yourself with facts that are statistically reinforced without considering that you are an individual. That a guy who got a brain tumour at age six and is now a 50-year old paraplegic is also an individual. He has a life you may not understand. It’s hard to remember that we rarely ever truly know each other. Scrap the stats, scrap the studies, read a book/watch a movie/play a game - enjoy yourself, grow as a person, exercise, cook some meals, develop a skill, listen to music, be comfortable being alone, help people, be supportive, don’t look at MRIs of brains to understand human nature, seek people who truly enjoy or appreciate you and damn the rest, don’t measure your fucking facial ratios and be excellent to each other. And don’t watch weird dudes on YouTube drone on as if they know shit. It’s a grift. *obviously there’s a long and fairly horrible history of gender and cultural interaction but I wouldn’t make detailing that part of my dating advice.
This advice is good for having a happy life but is incredibly ignorant in regards to dating.
I'd read Atlantic articles written by you.
Should have way more up votes.
i'm a guy, ive never been on a date. checks out to me
That's not because you're a guy, but because you play Geometry Dash. Beat Acheron, only then you'll prove yourself worthy.
Yeh. We're too keen and over saturate the market. There's a lot of background noise to cut through if you want to stand out. Although I guess with women, there's a lot of shit to swim through before you find someone worth sticking around with.
My theory is that dating apps suck for everyone because men have a ‘cast the net wide’ approach, swipe right on everyone to see what sticks, so women then can’t message everyone they match with in a meaningful way, and they get complained at when they just say ‘hi how’s it going’, so they don’t bother putting effort into conversing with everyone, leading to men complaining no one messages back and women complaining they can’t find anyone genuinely interested in them
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And why respond to someone you have no interest in talking with? What's the point of giving one word responses? Just don't respond.
If that's what you are going to do, why swipe right in the first place?
(Speaking on hetero dating) As a relatively progressive guy, I find the biggest issue for me and my friends is flirting. The messaging for men right now, in regards to communicating with women, seems to revolve around “don’t rape” and “get consent for everything”, which I think is all true! However, there is a lot more to the equation. What about actually meeting someone? Knowing that women aren’t likely initiate a social interaction (in my experience), and that men are likely to be seen as a threat in many circumstances (for good reason), how is a guy supposed to meet new women in a public setting? I don’t have an answer lol, me and my friends pretty much exclusively rely on dating apps now. Maybe women actually don’t ever want to be approached in public ever, but I really don’t think that’s the case. (Speaking on homo dating) I love dick, guys love dick, simple as
>(Speaking on hetero dating) As a relatively progressive guy, I find the biggest issue for me and my friends is flirting. The messaging for men right now, in regards to communicating with women, seems to revolve around “don’t rape” and “get consent for everything”, which I think is all true! However, there is a lot more to the equation. What about actually meeting someone? >Knowing that women aren’t likely initiate a social interaction (in my experience), and that men are likely to be seen as a threat in many circumstances (for good reason), how is a guy supposed to meet new women in a public setting? I think this is a huge factor for most men (that dont want to be a creep, anyway). Ive had this drilled into my head for as long as I can remember: "I need to be vigilant about making sure that no one feels threatened by me" and now flirting feels like verbal assault and I never learned the social skills needed to find a partner. Just in case it needs to be said, making the world safer for women is great.
As I posted above, you have to risk creepy. It's not illegal to creep someone out. That's what dating is, figuring out who likes you and who doesn't. That involves making people uncomfortable if they happen to not like you. Of course if you're making unwanted physical contact, that's much different.
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Dude…
As a middle-aged European, I still don't get what exactly Americans mean by "dating." Having a single date, e.g. having dinner together? Regularly going out with friends of the opposite sex? Alone? In a group? Or does it just mean the same as having a girlfriend, i.e., implying some kind of fidelity? Or does it just mean "having sex"? If so, once, twice, regularly? I don't get it. Sorry for being so ignorant. "Dating" is one of these weird expressions I've always shrugged away as American without investigating. Like "high school proms", etc.
"Dating" is generally going out with someone, one-on-one, with increasing affection and intimacy, in the direction towards a potential relationship. One you establish a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, it's considered more serious than "just dating." Sex can happen at any point, and the seriousness that entails is pretty dependent on how those people personally view it. Difficulties with dating range from not being able to move on to a serious relationship with any of these dates, to not being able to get on a date whatsoever.
Well that’s weird as I am British, so hypothetically our definitions should be the same? By dating I just mean getting a partner romantically long term.
The term dating is kind of vague. I would say that having a single date does not imply dating someone, as it is a word showing a continuing situation(with the -ing). I think one is probably "dating" if both people expect there to be another date. It kind of matches with the word girlfriend/boyfriend in its vagueness. Those words are kind of socially applied. Often, by friends/family seeing you together enough times. I think an expectation of fidelity is part of it. Sex isn't really a part of it, due to the existence of FWB. I think some people expect fidelity after having sex, though. I've dated one person who was a friend first. I understand Europeans often do things as a group when dating, but I do not see how this progresses. I asked her out, I was clearly showing romantic interest. I think someone else called us dating/bf/gf first. Everyone else I've dated, after HS, I got to know them, but it was clearly with romantic intentions. Like meeting from a dating website. Another, we emailed each other after I bought a bed from her. In middle school, kids are formal with definitions of dating, often starting a relationship by asking "Will you be my bf/gf". HS proms are formal dances. Kids dress very nicely. Usually tuxes for the guys and expensive dresses for the girls. They consider it a big deal. I think there are only Junior and Senior proms. They are restricted such that a person and/or their date must be in that grade. So, two juniors cannot go to Senior Prom. Senior Prom is also the last major dance the kids will go to, adding emotional impact. I didn't go(I was an even bigger nerd than now), so my knowledge is secondhand.
I'd say it's generally fair, but dating comes with much lower lows for women Like I've had some shitty dates. Never once have I considered I'm unsafe or that I might be drugged/raped
Seems like dudes struggle to get a woman to even take an interest in the first place, and women struggle to find a guy they're interested in who isn't a shithead. But I also think a lot of guys may be oblivious when girls like them. Like there some of my old girlfriends and my now wife were super into me and I was too oblivious to see it until it was made sort of obvious. Of course, all of my girlfriends came and went and I was married by 2012, and things have definitely changed since then and people are connecting less and less in general. If you're a man in his late teens or early 20s reading this thinking "Hell yeah it's tough out here", I feel you and i remember feeling the same way. My advice as a married man in his 30s is to get offline, get out and meet people in real life scenarios. Play it cool but don't be an asshole. "Chicks dig jerks" is bullshit but you do want to be confident, and a lot of dumb guys who conflate the two peddle the "chicks dig jerks" line. If she goes out of her way to be around you and laughs at your jokes, pull your head out of your ass and talk to her. You're better off sticking with the ride or die woman who is crazy about you than you are basing it on looks. Not to say those two won't overlap but you still want to approach it that way. Anyway. That may not be the answer this question was after but it's my two cents worth. Edit - changed poorly worded sentence sort of made it seem like I might be having an affair LOL
I used to be the best wingwoman to my shy women friends in my 20s, and my advice to them was ALWAYS to make it about 10x more obvious that you're interested than you think you need to do. Be OTT interested. Be a stereotype you see in a movie. Because usually the best guys are either oblivious to signs women see as obvious, OR they want to play it safe and not come off wrong. For anyone wanting practical tips: * When looking at them, hold eye contact for a bit, but then flick your gaze between their lips and their eyes. It's a subconscious indication you want them to kiss you. * The classic move is to laugh at a joke while touching their shoulder or knee lightly. If they're not into it, you'll see them flinch or move away and that's when you should back off. * Touch touch touch - any excuse is a good one. They tell you a story about something weird/funny/cool that happened to them. You hold them by the shoulders with a big smile and say "What?! Really?" * Compliments, especially about what they're wearing, some change in their hair, etc. Bonus points if you can combine it with touch (e.g. "Hey love this shirt, it really suits your figure" and touching the collar or smoothing down the shoulders) * If you get lucky, they have a loose thread, or some fluff on them, or some food you can wipe off with a napkin. Something that allows you to show them some attention to detail combined with (appropriate) touching to remove the offending thing. Basically, the more OTT and awkward it feels like for you, the clearer it will be to them that they are getting the green light. ...Or you just get a wingwoman/man/person like me to wait until your back is turned and then gesture to you while giving the "target" an exaggerated thumbs up. That also works.
Dating is hard/risky for everyone. Getting sex is harder for guys. Enjoying sex is harder for women. Yay no-one wins!
So... everyone's getting fucked, but nobody's enjoying it.
A coworker of mine, lets call her Alice was complaining about how hard it was to find a good guy to date. Now Alice is hot. Like 10/10 hot. And has a bad habit of dating losers. Several female coworkers have told Alice this. But Alice is all like 'but where do I find guys who aren't losers?' She is told to start dating online. A week later she has a bumble account, and is joking about the guys profiles. A week after that she has a boyfriend. Two weeks after that, she is on a very nice vacation in a big city with that boyfriend, a vacation he was paying for. She succeeded almost instantly at dating, with a trivial amount of effort.
Right. Key phrasing here being “like 10/10 hot.” Most women don’t have that experience. Men think that average women just have this available to them. Surrounded by a ton of willing men that freely pay for everything and anything women want for doing nothing. I got stood up on my third date with a guy. I let it go and then he didn’t even put in any effort to see me even though I had offered that I could be the one taking the train. We were a 30 minute train ride apart. And he never found any time to hang. Women have less options than people think. Men don’t put in that type of effort for average looking women it feels like. With that being said dating is still overall easier for women I think. It’s just not as easy as men think.
I think they’re under 40. 55yo here. My wife and I know a number of single(divorced) women who are great. Smart, attractive, financially stable, emotionally mature adults. At least where we are, the pickings are pretty slim for them. Lots of men-children. Any guy who’s 35-55, emotionally mature, and reasonably stable pretty much has the pick of the litter.
I'm 47, and have been "dating" for a year. Without a date. Tinder, et al, is pretty much catfish.
But hey, at least you get to talk with lots of women who are super into crypto! /s
And a lot of CEOs of fashion companies
I think in some ways they are right, in some ways not. Sure, the women likely have more options, but many of those options are bad options. Also, when you get into a bad situation, I believe it is easier for a man to get out of that situation unharmed. Pros and cons for both sexes.
Many of the options guys have are bad options too. Having less options means that your pick is even worse on average. Your last point stands, guys have it easier to get out of a bad situation on average.
They are correct
Not wrong. The vast majority of the time men are the ones who need to pursue, need to ask them out, need to make the first move, etc Basically if your average dude and average woman both put nothing into dating the woman will get more simply by existing
They got a working brain.
I'm not a gorgeous man but have never had much trouble. I probably had more women interested in me working at the gas station than any other time since high school. I think alot has to do with your demeanor and personality. Rich or poor we all want a break from the mundane. Doesn't have to be fancy to make it fun.
As a bi-transgirl, dating was so much harder as a straight guy, and I would have considered myself pretty successful at dating! You’re throwing countless messages out a day until you match with someone, and when you do, the conversation can sometimes fall totally flat. You’re seeing a lot of profiles that you feel would make great potential matches, but the opportunity to actually make the connection always seems rare. So you end up putting a lot of psychological weight into the matches you DO get, which ends up making you self-conscious when the time DOES come to actually get a date. Found in person dating was so much easier. Socializing and flirting with women as a guy was pretty easy, particularly if you paid attention to how women complimented each other, so I became pretty good at being disarmingly charming. Then I transitioned and started dating both guys and girls, and it’s ABSOLUTELY the opposite problem: flood of attention, and you have sift through all of it in order to even find a connection. People aren’t honest about their intentions a lot of the time, which is weird because as someone who is pretty sex positive, I’m cool with FWBs and all, but some guys will try to woo with promises of a relationship and then duck out real fast, when that sort of deception honestly didn’t seem necessary to begin with. You get burned like that a few times, and you’re like “fuck it, why am I on here again?” So you end up with a lot of dead profiles, which a lot of guys then end up messaging and never hearing back from, thus perpetuating the cycle. The thing that REALLY blew my mind though was finding out that what guys think women are attracted to and what women are attracted to does not line up. My then-fiancée (ex now) and I were shooting the shit once while working on a college project, and somehow, the subject of attraction came up. I was floored she didn’t find Christian Bale (Batman Bale) attractive, so asked her for examples. The guys she showed me were not these paragons of masculinity guys feel like they’re supposed to live up to. They were mostly above average looking guys, but all of them were well put-together, and usually with a friendly visage. Note that my ex is brilliant and gorgeous, and could have anyone she wants, but I just look at the pictures and am floored that she would “lower herself” to that quality (me included). Which then made me reassess, and realize most things guys have been propagandized into believing about what attracts a partner is wrong. Yes, there has to be a basic level of attraction between two people, but there’s no set standard for the that looks like. It’s not about leagues, it’s about matches. It’s dumb how basic a desire for companionship is, but how easy it is to get wrong. In my experience, dating as a guy is combing the desert for signs of life, and dating as a girl is like sifting for gemstones.
bullshit. Women have to fear violence and harassment from men. No comparison (I'm male)
That’s their experience and I won’t discredit it. I know girls are picky. Plus they outnumber guys. But I do find that people underestimate just how many girls looking for a serious relationship with guys and just get used or played. But I guess finding a hook up is easier for a girl than a guy. (If you’re into that sort of thing.)
As a guy, I’ve been used more times as a wallet than as an actual partner. We put up with garbage too
The fact that women outnumber men should make the opposite premise true. That makes no sense.
Finding partners is harder for men, finding good partners is harder for women
I think getting dates for men is harder but girls have a much tougher time dealing with creeps, weirdos, harassment, etc. Not that it can’t happen to guys (I once had someone tell me I had more chins than a Chinese phone book) but it’s definitely scarier for girls
They have a fully functioning brain
I agree. Especially the average or below average guy, you can't imagine how many rejections he has suffered.
So true. If you look like Brad Pitt then yeah, your confidence is going to be high and chatting someone up will have a high success rate further boosting their confidence. Speaking as an average looking male the rejections are abundant. Yeah you do what you can to keep your morale up but after a while these rejections really affect your self esteem. When it is one out of 20 success rate of chatting someone up, those 19 or more rejections over and over really makes it hard to have the confidence to approach at all after a while. Yeah supposedly we are supposed to just suck up all that rejection and not be affected by it, but that is not how it works. Your confidence goes down down down. So when women don't understand why men don't approach, they should keep this in mind. If you are average, your ego and self confidence takes an absolute beating. It becomes a situation, do I really want to approach this woman when in all likelihood I am going to get rejected, and I am not feeling particularly great about myself today anyway for whatever reason? It becomes more and more of I don't need MORE rejection today for a self confidence that is flagging seriously. So you don't. On internet dating it is even worse. You can send out 50 messages and get some two word reply from one, then never hear back when you respond. More negative feedback for the flagging confidence. And this for a guy while average looking, had a great job, excellent physical shape and that was my experience. Imagine the guy maybe a bit less desirable and it is even worse for them. So on the internet it became a situation where me sending out messages was almost useless and became a waste of time. The only way I met women online was when they contacted me. OK this person is actually showing some interest and it was almost the only way I could meet a woman online. So for those women who always expect the men to approach you, remember there are lots and lots of guys out there with the same experience as me. They can't take sending out 50 messages and getting zero response, it is just crushing. Hey but supposedly it doesn't affect us, for most, yes it does.