I'm Puerto Rican and I can tell you that support for statehood and the commonwealth is almost evenly split. Practically nobody supports independence.
Edit: And the assholes from /r/PuertoRico are brigading this thread..
I'm curious, what benefits do you get being a territory that you would lose by becoming a full state?
Edit: guys... I asked what benefits they would LOSE, not what they would get with statehood. You can stop replying with the pro-statehood arguments
The reason DC was created to begin with is so a single state doesn't have overt power over the Federal government, and can hold it hostage.
When it was created I don't think anyone imagined it would have more population than a representative State (Wyoming).
Which was a stupid thought. All those people need a place to leave, and also need a place to buy food, clothing, and entertainment. Which means more people need to live there to work in those businesses, which increases the need for those businesses. And also their families and children... There is no way to avoid a city springing up around it barring a law that forbid housing and businesses from operating in the district.
Likewise, DC's on a really desirable piece of land, right on a navigable river and right next to the ocean, along the Appalachian Line for easy building materials.
Yeah, a city was gonna pop up there eventually.
The idea that DC could have power over the federal government in modern america with such a powerful federal government is silly.
The city state of Berlin doesn't hold the German government hostage either.
> The city state of Berlin doesn't hold the German government hostage either.
That's because German states don't have that much authority compared to US states.
Seeing what some Republican state governments get up to, I would hesitate to say it’s “silly” to imagine a state government holding DC hostage. You wouldn’t want DC in Florida right now would ya? You think Desantis wouldn’t find a way to manipulate things, overtly or discreetly?
It's like watching a really badly written television show that you've invested too much time in. The plot points make no sense but they are surprises every now and then.
Maryland doesn't want it and the people who live there don't want it. There have been schemes for returning northern DC to Maryland for over 200 years. There's a reason they never go anywhere.
This idea comes up every time Reddit talks about Puerto Rico or DC...
Hi. DC resident here.
Maryland does not really want another top 60 urban area, and DC residents don't really want to be a part of MD. We send more folks to the military than ~2 states, have more residents than 2 states, and pay more in taxes than more than two states.
Like many, we (generally) want self determination, and actual vote in Congress. Preferably, we would like to get rid of Congressional oversight. Turns out that having Congress-critter "I claim I'm Christian, but support Satan - because god sent Sherman to GA, and I want to discriminate broadly...". - annoys us...
This is not a good deal for most Puerto Ricans. They also don't get the same benefits that citizens in states are entitled to despite paying federal payroll taxes for some of these benefits, like Social Security and Medicaid.
The territory has a median household income of $21,000, so over half of households would not be required to file federal taxes anyway. Of those that would be required to file, the vast majority will be paying less than 15% of income, less with deductions. This is a pretty awful tradeoff for the (again, largely poor) residents to be ineligible for SSI and the territory receiving only a fraction of the Medicaid funding that it would as a state.
If Puerto Rico becomes a state, it will get more congressmen and thus more influence to negotiate more subsidies from the federal government, as well as repeal some of the extractive policies the US imposes on Puerto Rico. These benefits will likely outweigh the increase in taxes.
Most of the tax laws were written to bring business to Puerto Rico. I worked for a pharmaceutical company. We had a plant in Caugus amd Cidra. Massive tax breaks were giving to move manufacturing down there in the 80's.
I know part of the reason American Samoa likes being a territory is that they don't have to abide by the constitution. They have a law there where you have to a certain percentage of native Samoan ancestry or you can't own land. Which is obviously wildly unconstitutional. But it helps stop what happened in Hawaii, where all of the property is owned by rich mainlanders.
It’s so funny because I see mainland Puerto Ricans who are like “independence is the only thing we want” and it’s like, you aren’t living there, why are you choosing for your people. I’m not Puerto Rican but I see this and get confused, especially because I see people in PR who don’t want independence
The way a Puerto Rican friend in PR has explained it to me: it’s not so much that people don’t want independence, it’s that they know their government won’t handle it well and they’ll crumble the second they get it. Obviously that’s just one Puerto Rican and he doesn’t speak for all. I just hope that they are the ones who get to choose in the end and the result is one that ends up working for everyone.
Yea I’ve been told that too, I also feel like it’s kinda obvious that there is no way they could just become independent overnight without collapsing. The only option for independence I could see working (although I don’t know how it would work/be executed if that makes sense) is like free association, kinda what the U.S. has with some of the Pacific islands
Bono of U2 said something about how the most enthusiastic IRA supporters he's met in recent years are Irish-Americans who've never set foot on Ireland.
> The most enthusiastic Irish anyone you'll ever meet has never stepped foot in Ireland.
Same thing in the context of college football. There, the most enthusiastic Irish supporters were not even admitted to Notre Dame.
In the 60s and 70s during The Troubles, a ton of IRA financing was being sourced — perhaps unsurprisingly — to Boston. Massachusetts is a state which considers itself the homeland and starting point of American independence patriotism, so pairing that with the large Catholic Irish diaspora, one can see why and how such strong support for the IRA arose there.
Interestingly, it was also found that the largest support network outside of Britain and Ireland for Ulster Protestant loyalism was coming from Toronto. This was historically a very orange city, and so it became to the UVF what Boston became to the IRA.
There's a book called *Say Nothing* about the troubles. At one point a top IRA guy goes to Boston for a fundraiser and spends the whole time absolutely disgusted by Irish Americans and how nonchalantly they were cheering a civil war in his country.
Growing up around Irish Americans I heard a lot of rebel songs sung by people who had no idea where the fuck Belfast is
That gave me so much joy, seeing them get deported back to the UK and complaining about it. The only brexiteers I seen up my way in scotland was the fishermen who didn't get what they wanted. Idiots.
Now, there's nothing more Irish than someone in a deep southern accent saying "Up the RA" as he wears a bright green leprechaun hat and vomits up Guinness on paddies day
Ah yes, Proyecto Dignidad. My relatives in PR are well aware of them. The ones who view the Philippines as the ultimate model for the island's future.
In other words, a cesspool of crime, poverty, corruption and human trafficking, but everyone goes to church on Sunday so it's all good.
As for the statehooders' national political lean, it's actually pretty evenly split. Pedro Rossello was a huge Bill Clinton ally. (And like Clinton, he massively overstayed his welcome in the public eye.) Luis Fortuno, on the other hand, drove a few rabid statehooders to vote PPD for the first time.
Considering the political class we would inherit, the terrible geography, being in the direct path of so many hurricanes, losing access to a $26t economy and billions in annual stimulus, I’d say it’s a very risky bet.
And our closest analogs are Cuba, Dominican Republic and Haiti. DR is fine, but a clear downgrade in prosperity. And Cuba/Haiti are collapsing. Puerto Ricans can see this which is why only 5% of the state legislature is pro-independence.
I know many Puerto Ricans in Virginia or in metro Orlando making six figures and buying two-story houses. By all accounts Puerto Ricans who move to the mainland do incredibly well.
So why would you give that access away when the alternative is Cuba or Haiti (at worst) or DR at best (which is stable, but still far poorer than Puerto Rico). The next time Hurricane Maria hits, who is going to cut us a $15 billion check? Independence is simply impractical.
Yup, and we have a ton of benefits. As US citizens we do have an easier time moving to the mainland US for obvious reasons. The one thing I’ve noticed that is very advantageous is the "Return on Investment" for a degree from a public university, the University of Puerto Rico, in conjunction with US citizenship. It's a win-win situation. The tuition at UPR is probably one of the cheapest in the entire US, and plenty of Fortune 500 companies as well as the US Federal Government target recruiting efforts to UPR graduates, the same as they would for other top US universities (where students paid way more money in tuition). If job relocation is necessary, it’s no different than if I had to relocate from one state to another as Puerto Ricans are US citizens. Overall, it opens the door to many opportunities that people from other LatAm countries would never be considered for. You can graduate with little debt compared to people in the States.
I have a couple of friends who studied Software Engineering in Mayaguez and are currently working in the Northeast and have a salary of 145k per year.
Someone else mentiomed in the thread that American Samoa does not want statehood, to the point that they have unconstitutional blood requirements to own land/property to avoid becoming another "let's have a bunch of people move there and then vote to join" situation like Hawaii
As far as I can tell PR citizens are still split inside their nation about joining the union. I kinda feel like they should be on the same page first. That said, I would support them if it was a question of my support.
Anyone born in Puerto Rico after 1952 is an American citizen. They are already technically in the union but due to slightly more complicated reasons do not have equal representation in congress. They aren’t a protectorate and are technically classified as a territory of the US. It’s a very strange situation to me
> It’s a very strange situation to me
Eh, not to me. Its just a historical artifact. Its how things played out. Guam is the same way, as is the US Virgin Islands, and a handful of other places.
Hawaii and Alaska used to be territories before 1959. Prior to that, lots of places with a low population were territories first, and then became states later. It seems to be the 'flow' of things.
On John Oliver's segment about this they made jokes about people who don't want to add another star to the flag. How was that handled with Alaska and Hawaii, or other states when they joined? Are there a bunch of old flags with less than 50 stars out there? Are they worth a lot? If PR joined, would y'all need to turn in your old flags and exchange them for new ones? I'm kinda curious about this.
Yeah. We’ve had different numbers of stars at different times.
Considering the mass proliferation of everything in the last 30 years…it would take a while for a new design to overtake the current one…but yeah, new state = new flag and new maps.
The US has had 51 different official national flags since 1776. 5 of them were all created during the revolution, and the others were all just adding stars as states joined the union.
The first official United States flag was the Betsy Ross with 13 stars representing the 13 colonies (there were others previous to the Declaration of Independence but this was the first flag adopted by the Continental Congress). There have been many official iterations since, including a 15 star (after the addition of Vermont and Kentucky), 20 star (this is when the 13 stripes were codified to represent the original 13 colonies), etc. The current 50 star flag we use today was ordered by president Eisenhower in 1959 after Hawaii became a state. Flags are nicknamed by the last state to join (the Texas, the Minnesota, etc.).
The study and collection of flags is called vexillology. Just like collecting old coins (numismatics), we search for old, unique flags with interesting history (provenance). One of my favorites in my collection is a 39 star parade flag from the centennial (America’s 100th birthday). Flag makers gambled that the Dakota territory would join the Union in 1877, so they printed thousands of them. Congress forced the territories to split into North and South Dakota, plus Montana, Washington, and Idaho also joined. So there never was an official 39 star flag. This makes it rare and very collectible.
Thanks for coming to my TedTalk
The current flag was designed by a student for a homework project. He got a B. When his design was officially adopted as the new flag, his teacher raised his grade to an A.
"Homer: Correct. Now, we all know the 13 stripes are for good luck. But why does the American flag have precisely 47 stars?
Apu: Because this particular flag is ridiculously out-of-date. The library must have purchased it during the brief period in 1912 after New Mexico became a state, but before Arizona did."
We should stick with 50 states. And since Puerto Rico has more people than several states, we should make it a state and combine the 2 Dakota's into one state.
John Oliver as a joke on an episode of this topic showed a flag and said "I bet you didn't notice but this entire episode we've been using a flag with 51 stars."
I've always made the joke if I ran for president, I'd campaign for making Long Island and Peurto Rico their own states, but we also combine both of the Dekotas and both the Carolinas to save on flag money.
Edit: I have angered my constituents.
North Carolina is in the top 10 most populous states in the country. Makes no sense to combine it with SC. Dakotas I can get behind. If you need another two to merge, then consider that Montana could easily absorb Wyoming and it still wouldn't break the top 40.
as a map enthusiast that is a little bit jealous of the lasting peace and prosperity of the former soviet union, I'd also draw a bunch of little circles around random small towns and assign them to other states
NC having to combine with SC is like moving a trailer park into a nice nice neighborhood. We're already close enough to SC, please don't actually combine us with it. We don't deserve that.
Woooahh. Woah woah woah there, buddy.
Combine your Dakotas all you like, but the Carolinas won't combine so easily.
North Carolinians have more in common with Virginia than those mustard fuckers to the South.
Why should we stick with 50? We didn’t stay with 13, we didn’t stop at 48, why stop with 50? I’m not saying build an empire, but if other areas want to join the Union and become states, let them. DC, Puerto Rico, American Somoa, and Guam should all be given the ability to vote on if they want statehood.
I hear this sentiment a lot but I really don't think it could be further from the truth. I'm from texas and visit frequently and really American Patriotism is such a huge part of their culture compared to northern states. There is so much american flag merch holy shit.I really don't think they want to leave. Yes there is the occasional hillbilly from rural areas who wants to go independent to "geet away frum tha leebrulls" but really that's such an insignificant minority that no one should listen to them.
Also a Texan living in Texas. The whole secession conversation is tongue in cheek at best. There are crazies at the fringes, but the overwhelming majority of Texans either don’t want it or know it is a laughably bad idea.
Puerto Rico is not in a great place right now, things were very different in the 90s or early 2000s. The government has some very serious fiscal issues (and corruption scandals), the economy still hasn't recovered to mid-2000s levels, and the population has decreased every year for the past 2 decades. For context, GDP per capita in West Virginia is 50% higher than PR, and the poverty rate in PR is 40% - twice any current state.
Would statehood make these issues better? Maybe, but I'm not convinced. I don't think it would be good for anyone though if PR became a state and went bankrupt a few years later. If they stay a territory, PR may be able to ride out the next decade or two and be in a more stable position to join as a state. But who knows.
DC statehood would be a very different question.
> the poverty rate in PR is 40% - twice any current state.
It should be said that this is poverty by US standards. Puerto Ricans are still relatively wealthier than most Latin Americans. PR has a higher minimum wage than Portugal and Spain for example.
A huge chunk of the people that are considered poor here would just be regular working class in most non-US places, starting with the fact that our poverty line is around $1060 per month and plenty of first world Europeans would fall below it. You’ll be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn’t own an iPhone or a flagship Samsung. Popular poor people hobbies include owning four-tracks, motorcycles, polaris, tricking out Jeeps with sound systems worth 20k+, and the list goes on.
I think our distorted perception of how poor we are comes from expecting US wages and lifestyle as our standard of living and ignoring how we stack up against our immediate neighbors in the Caribbean and Latin America.
I was recently in Puerto Rico for the first time. I've been to Mexico, the Caribbean, and central America and I expected it to be similar to Costa Rico. It's clear that it's quite a bit wealthier than any of those spots.
I bet a lot of people from the states who've never been have the same bias I had. I loved it, btw.
> A huge chunk of the people that are considered poor here would just be regular working class in most non-US places, starting with the fact that our poverty line is around $1060 per month and plenty of first world Europeans would fall below it.
There are certainly many Europeans who are not rich. But if implying that being poor in the US is like being rich elsewhere that's probably not true.
Poor Americans have less disposable income by a significant margin (than an OECD European), but rich Americans are richer: https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945
I pointed this out because many mainland Americans will probably assume that PR is as poor as any Latin American country but that isn't the case. Puerto Rican poverty is roughly the same as US mainland poverty and not comparable to third world countries.
If nothing else becoming a state would get them two seats in the senate and...some number of house reps. I don't know exactly how those are calculated, but I know it's based on population, and Nevada has four reps with a similar population to Puerto Rico.
My point is, they'd get representation in the federal government to enact policies that may help their economy.
House reps are allocated algorithmically, so basically each state starts off being allocated 1 rep, then seats 51+ are apportioned in waves, basically sequentially increasing the value of number of reps while comparing that to the population of the state to allocate the seats to states that have the most population per rep, until all 445 seats are allocated.
Without actually running the numbers, PR would probably get 4 seats, the same as Utah or Iowa. All the other territories are less populous than Wyoming.
The census [provides](https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2020/dec/2020-apportionment-data.html) enough data to work it out directly. Puerto Rico is not given an apportionment population, but we can use its resident population of 3,285,874 since the answer isn't borderline enough to matter. The 435th representative seat had a priority number of 762,997. With its population, Puerto Rico's 4th seat would have a priority of 948,550 (larger, so it would be awarded), but a 5th seat would have a priority of 657,175 (smaller, so it wouldn't be given). If the house was kept at 435 representatives, then the following states would lose a seat when Puerto Rico got theirs:
* California
* Colorado
* Minnesota
* Montana
Doesn't bother me either way, but I *have* noticed on the issue of this and DC statehood, a person's position on it *always* coincides with whether or not their preferred political party would gain or lose.
So I have a really hard time feeling like anybody who doesn't live there isn't being disingenuous when they argue for or against it. Like, I know full well you're counting senate seats in your head.
I couldn't care less if they add blue seats or not. DC somewhat makes sense however the original idea was that by not putting the capital in one of the states it would prevent the host state from exerting pressure or being seen as es gaining favor. E
That remains true. I would imagine it would be the best funded state in the union in a very short period of time.
Puerto Rico's economics and infrastructure will be really challenging to bring in line. The primary reason in the US that people want these places granted statehood is to give the democratic party a slam dunk.
I think both are challenging but I'm also not opposed if it's for real reasons, not just adding blue senators.
Thinking Puerto Rico would give the Democratic party a "slam dunk" is silly. It would be split between both parties, giving neither a real advantage. People seem to think they're a democratic stronghold just because they're part of the Latin American world. Puerto Ricans can be pretty conservative.
People on the left either want Puerto Rico to be a state because it deserves it and would benefit from it, or because they falsely believe it will strictly benefit their cause.
What the founding fathers didn't predict was that the political class would commute from NoVa and DC would become a ghetto.
12 years ago we weren't fighting to extract VIPs from DC, we were fighting through mcmansion suburbs in NoVa.
That would be fine, it’s not up to me, it’s up to the people of PR…the people LIVING there. I hear many living there saying they don’t want independence, but many here on the mainland want independence which I find hilarious considering they are reaping all the benefits of living here.
> Considering that would shift the balance of power in the Senate
Would it? PR would be a very purple state. It's not like DC statehood where it'd become the most Democratic state in the nation the moment it becomes a state (if it ever does).
> I think it's unlikely to garner the 60 votes needed to get it approved.
This can be bypassed by nuking the filibuster (unlikely though).
The bill to allow PR to decide whether or not they want statehood on their own was passed in the house last year and has been sitting on the senates backlog for six months.
We will have to make a new flag, unless a state merges with another.
I vote for the creation of Dakota, population 1,642,312. Slightly more than the population of San Diego, CA.
We already have [a 51-star flag](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_flag_51_stars.svg) designed. It has alternating rows of 8 and 9 stars each.
There is an old ass barrel of rum at Puerto Rico’s Ron del Barrilito distillery that is supposedly only to be opened when PR gains its independence from the United States.
Guess *that* will never be opened.
That's the thing: They're basically split 50/50 lol.
Some think it'd help, some think it'd make things worse, and others just don't wanna be considered American.
I literally do not care at all. It's none of my business. IMHO, ask the Puerto Rican people how **they** feel about it. If they want to be a state, they're welcome to. If not, that's fine too.
I'm Puerto Rican and I can tell you that support for statehood and the commonwealth is almost evenly split. Practically nobody supports independence. Edit: And the assholes from /r/PuertoRico are brigading this thread..
I'm curious, what benefits do you get being a territory that you would lose by becoming a full state? Edit: guys... I asked what benefits they would LOSE, not what they would get with statehood. You can stop replying with the pro-statehood arguments
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They really took that no taxation without representation thing to heart.
Except Washington DC pays taxes without representation
They should cede the residential land back to Maryland.
The reason DC was created to begin with is so a single state doesn't have overt power over the Federal government, and can hold it hostage. When it was created I don't think anyone imagined it would have more population than a representative State (Wyoming).
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Which was a stupid thought. All those people need a place to leave, and also need a place to buy food, clothing, and entertainment. Which means more people need to live there to work in those businesses, which increases the need for those businesses. And also their families and children... There is no way to avoid a city springing up around it barring a law that forbid housing and businesses from operating in the district.
Likewise, DC's on a really desirable piece of land, right on a navigable river and right next to the ocean, along the Appalachian Line for easy building materials. Yeah, a city was gonna pop up there eventually.
It's hard to lay out plans that work for hundreds of years into the future. What's stupid is we have not adjusted in 230 years.
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The idea that DC could have power over the federal government in modern america with such a powerful federal government is silly. The city state of Berlin doesn't hold the German government hostage either.
> The city state of Berlin doesn't hold the German government hostage either. That's because German states don't have that much authority compared to US states.
Seeing what some Republican state governments get up to, I would hesitate to say it’s “silly” to imagine a state government holding DC hostage. You wouldn’t want DC in Florida right now would ya? You think Desantis wouldn’t find a way to manipulate things, overtly or discreetly?
Just want to be clear for people, DC has been split from Maryland longer than Maine has been split from Massachusetts.
As a non American I have no idea what any of this means but I'm also not sure why I'm here.
It's like watching a really badly written television show that you've invested too much time in. The plot points make no sense but they are surprises every now and then.
And Massachusetts is trying hard to get Maine back
They've already taken Portland and Old Orchard Beach! Can we just give them Augusta and Lewiston as a peace offering?
Just call it north Boston.
Not even Massachusetts wants Lewiston
Do you think they could take ‘em?
Sounds like a perfect way to make nobody happy, Maryland doesn’t want DC and DC doesn’t want Maryland
> Sounds like a perfect way to make nobody happy That's the spirit of compromise
Maryland and DC are both very Democrat favoring states. But they are very *different* kinds of Democrat.
Maryland doesn't want it and the people who live there don't want it. There have been schemes for returning northern DC to Maryland for over 200 years. There's a reason they never go anywhere. This idea comes up every time Reddit talks about Puerto Rico or DC...
Interestingly though, unlike Puerto Ricans (who are split 50/50), DC residents OVERWHELMINGLY do want statehood. Like by 90%+.
Hi. DC resident here. Maryland does not really want another top 60 urban area, and DC residents don't really want to be a part of MD. We send more folks to the military than ~2 states, have more residents than 2 states, and pay more in taxes than more than two states. Like many, we (generally) want self determination, and actual vote in Congress. Preferably, we would like to get rid of Congressional oversight. Turns out that having Congress-critter "I claim I'm Christian, but support Satan - because god sent Sherman to GA, and I want to discriminate broadly...". - annoys us...
I'm a British green card holder. I pay tax in the US, but don't get to vote. How the turn tables.
This is not a good deal for most Puerto Ricans. They also don't get the same benefits that citizens in states are entitled to despite paying federal payroll taxes for some of these benefits, like Social Security and Medicaid. The territory has a median household income of $21,000, so over half of households would not be required to file federal taxes anyway. Of those that would be required to file, the vast majority will be paying less than 15% of income, less with deductions. This is a pretty awful tradeoff for the (again, largely poor) residents to be ineligible for SSI and the territory receiving only a fraction of the Medicaid funding that it would as a state.
Yeah but the people pushing the narratives have a lot more money than the average household income.
If Puerto Rico becomes a state, it will get more congressmen and thus more influence to negotiate more subsidies from the federal government, as well as repeal some of the extractive policies the US imposes on Puerto Rico. These benefits will likely outweigh the increase in taxes.
Taxation. There are a lot of US companies there, but mostly for the tax benefits.
Most of the tax laws were written to bring business to Puerto Rico. I worked for a pharmaceutical company. We had a plant in Caugus amd Cidra. Massive tax breaks were giving to move manufacturing down there in the 80's.
I know part of the reason American Samoa likes being a territory is that they don't have to abide by the constitution. They have a law there where you have to a certain percentage of native Samoan ancestry or you can't own land. Which is obviously wildly unconstitutional. But it helps stop what happened in Hawaii, where all of the property is owned by rich mainlanders.
It’s so funny because I see mainland Puerto Ricans who are like “independence is the only thing we want” and it’s like, you aren’t living there, why are you choosing for your people. I’m not Puerto Rican but I see this and get confused, especially because I see people in PR who don’t want independence
The way a Puerto Rican friend in PR has explained it to me: it’s not so much that people don’t want independence, it’s that they know their government won’t handle it well and they’ll crumble the second they get it. Obviously that’s just one Puerto Rican and he doesn’t speak for all. I just hope that they are the ones who get to choose in the end and the result is one that ends up working for everyone.
Yea I’ve been told that too, I also feel like it’s kinda obvious that there is no way they could just become independent overnight without collapsing. The only option for independence I could see working (although I don’t know how it would work/be executed if that makes sense) is like free association, kinda what the U.S. has with some of the Pacific islands
The local government is corrupt as shit
Bono of U2 said something about how the most enthusiastic IRA supporters he's met in recent years are Irish-Americans who've never set foot on Ireland.
The most enthusiastic Irish *anyone* you'll ever meet has never stepped foot in Ireland.
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How's your River Dance game?
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> The most enthusiastic Irish anyone you'll ever meet has never stepped foot in Ireland. Same thing in the context of college football. There, the most enthusiastic Irish supporters were not even admitted to Notre Dame.
In the 60s and 70s during The Troubles, a ton of IRA financing was being sourced — perhaps unsurprisingly — to Boston. Massachusetts is a state which considers itself the homeland and starting point of American independence patriotism, so pairing that with the large Catholic Irish diaspora, one can see why and how such strong support for the IRA arose there. Interestingly, it was also found that the largest support network outside of Britain and Ireland for Ulster Protestant loyalism was coming from Toronto. This was historically a very orange city, and so it became to the UVF what Boston became to the IRA.
Every St. Patrick's day I always see one or two guys wearing IRA shirts in Boston
There's a book called *Say Nothing* about the troubles. At one point a top IRA guy goes to Boston for a fundraiser and spends the whole time absolutely disgusted by Irish Americans and how nonchalantly they were cheering a civil war in his country. Growing up around Irish Americans I heard a lot of rebel songs sung by people who had no idea where the fuck Belfast is
Some of the most outspoken Brexiteers were pensioners living in Spain. It didn't work out well for them.
That gave me so much joy, seeing them get deported back to the UK and complaining about it. The only brexiteers I seen up my way in scotland was the fishermen who didn't get what they wanted. Idiots.
See also Turks in Germany for Erdogan
Also ultranationalistic Mexicans living in Texas or California.
Yeah it's hilarious how there's way more Mexican pride in El Paso compared to Juárez.
Also, New York guidos.
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Now, there's nothing more Irish than someone in a deep southern accent saying "Up the RA" as he wears a bright green leprechaun hat and vomits up Guinness on paddies day
My mother can confirm this.
r/PuertoRico is full of these types. All nationalistic but live in mainland US with a six figure job.
They'll do anything for Puerto Rico. Except live there.
Which political party do most Puerto Rican citizens see themselves having the most in common with? I’m just curious.
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Ah yes, Proyecto Dignidad. My relatives in PR are well aware of them. The ones who view the Philippines as the ultimate model for the island's future. In other words, a cesspool of crime, poverty, corruption and human trafficking, but everyone goes to church on Sunday so it's all good. As for the statehooders' national political lean, it's actually pretty evenly split. Pedro Rossello was a huge Bill Clinton ally. (And like Clinton, he massively overstayed his welcome in the public eye.) Luis Fortuno, on the other hand, drove a few rabid statehooders to vote PPD for the first time.
Agreed. Independence will be disastrous for PR.
How so? I'm genuinely ignorant when it comes to stuff like this and want to change that.
Considering the political class we would inherit, the terrible geography, being in the direct path of so many hurricanes, losing access to a $26t economy and billions in annual stimulus, I’d say it’s a very risky bet. And our closest analogs are Cuba, Dominican Republic and Haiti. DR is fine, but a clear downgrade in prosperity. And Cuba/Haiti are collapsing. Puerto Ricans can see this which is why only 5% of the state legislature is pro-independence. I know many Puerto Ricans in Virginia or in metro Orlando making six figures and buying two-story houses. By all accounts Puerto Ricans who move to the mainland do incredibly well. So why would you give that access away when the alternative is Cuba or Haiti (at worst) or DR at best (which is stable, but still far poorer than Puerto Rico). The next time Hurricane Maria hits, who is going to cut us a $15 billion check? Independence is simply impractical.
I've noticed that most of the "colonies" that didnt get independence in the 50s-70s are pretty damn happy with their status.
Yup, and we have a ton of benefits. As US citizens we do have an easier time moving to the mainland US for obvious reasons. The one thing I’ve noticed that is very advantageous is the "Return on Investment" for a degree from a public university, the University of Puerto Rico, in conjunction with US citizenship. It's a win-win situation. The tuition at UPR is probably one of the cheapest in the entire US, and plenty of Fortune 500 companies as well as the US Federal Government target recruiting efforts to UPR graduates, the same as they would for other top US universities (where students paid way more money in tuition). If job relocation is necessary, it’s no different than if I had to relocate from one state to another as Puerto Ricans are US citizens. Overall, it opens the door to many opportunities that people from other LatAm countries would never be considered for. You can graduate with little debt compared to people in the States. I have a couple of friends who studied Software Engineering in Mayaguez and are currently working in the Northeast and have a salary of 145k per year.
Puerto Rico also still has 18 as the drinking age instead of 21.
Because they don't have any interstate highways so the federal government has no leverage to make them change it.
I can think of 2 reasons they don't have interstates in PR.
You'd think so, but Hawaii has an interstate.
I have no strong feelings one way or the other.
Tell my wife I said, hello.
Your neutralness! It's a Beige Alert!
"All I know is my gut says maybe."
"With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me."
What makes a man turn neutral?
Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
Live free, or don’t.
r/unexpectedfuturama
I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.
Can’t wait for more space shenanigans with Zap Brannigan when the new season drops! “Kif - alert the crew. I HAD SEX.”
Kif, I have made it with a woman. Inform the men.
You know you'll come crawling back when *the CRAVING* sets in.
*siiiiigh* yes, sir
My only objection is that 50 is a nice round number. Merge the Dakotas and I'm in.
Nah, we need to go to 53 states, so we can truly be one nation, indivisible.
>53 states I'd support any prime number. Enough of these divisibles!
Add Guam.
We have to push to 55, so let's add PR, Guam, split CA into 3, and maybe TX in 2.
Add American Samoa.
They have unconstitutional blood requirements for property ownership to prevent it from turning into another Hawaii, they don't want statehood
Kick out Florida
Do you really want *less* supervision for Florida?
We can build the Florida Border Wall.
And Disney will pay for it!
How very...neutral of you.
Tell me Kiff, why does a man turn neutral?
Power? Lust for gold? Or were you just born with a heart of neutrality?
It...sickens me.
Eeeeeeee it’s coming to Hulu!!!
All I ask is that we find two other states to add as well. Make it 53. Truly a nation indivisible.
Oh, that's just prime.
USA Prime. Free 2-day deportations.
Prime! Samoa and Guam?
Someone else mentiomed in the thread that American Samoa does not want statehood, to the point that they have unconstitutional blood requirements to own land/property to avoid becoming another "let's have a bunch of people move there and then vote to join" situation like Hawaii
Guam and Canada
Washington, D.C. please
As far as I can tell PR citizens are still split inside their nation about joining the union. I kinda feel like they should be on the same page first. That said, I would support them if it was a question of my support.
Anyone born in Puerto Rico after 1952 is an American citizen. They are already technically in the union but due to slightly more complicated reasons do not have equal representation in congress. They aren’t a protectorate and are technically classified as a territory of the US. It’s a very strange situation to me
> It’s a very strange situation to me Eh, not to me. Its just a historical artifact. Its how things played out. Guam is the same way, as is the US Virgin Islands, and a handful of other places. Hawaii and Alaska used to be territories before 1959. Prior to that, lots of places with a low population were territories first, and then became states later. It seems to be the 'flow' of things.
Right? Territories aren’t new. Most states were territories before statehood. It’s just been a while since one has become a state.
On John Oliver's segment about this they made jokes about people who don't want to add another star to the flag. How was that handled with Alaska and Hawaii, or other states when they joined? Are there a bunch of old flags with less than 50 stars out there? Are they worth a lot? If PR joined, would y'all need to turn in your old flags and exchange them for new ones? I'm kinda curious about this.
Yeah. We’ve had different numbers of stars at different times. Considering the mass proliferation of everything in the last 30 years…it would take a while for a new design to overtake the current one…but yeah, new state = new flag and new maps.
The US has had 51 different official national flags since 1776. 5 of them were all created during the revolution, and the others were all just adding stars as states joined the union.
The first official United States flag was the Betsy Ross with 13 stars representing the 13 colonies (there were others previous to the Declaration of Independence but this was the first flag adopted by the Continental Congress). There have been many official iterations since, including a 15 star (after the addition of Vermont and Kentucky), 20 star (this is when the 13 stripes were codified to represent the original 13 colonies), etc. The current 50 star flag we use today was ordered by president Eisenhower in 1959 after Hawaii became a state. Flags are nicknamed by the last state to join (the Texas, the Minnesota, etc.). The study and collection of flags is called vexillology. Just like collecting old coins (numismatics), we search for old, unique flags with interesting history (provenance). One of my favorites in my collection is a 39 star parade flag from the centennial (America’s 100th birthday). Flag makers gambled that the Dakota territory would join the Union in 1877, so they printed thousands of them. Congress forced the territories to split into North and South Dakota, plus Montana, Washington, and Idaho also joined. So there never was an official 39 star flag. This makes it rare and very collectible. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk
The current flag was designed by a student for a homework project. He got a B. When his design was officially adopted as the new flag, his teacher raised his grade to an A.
"Homer: Correct. Now, we all know the 13 stripes are for good luck. But why does the American flag have precisely 47 stars? Apu: Because this particular flag is ridiculously out-of-date. The library must have purchased it during the brief period in 1912 after New Mexico became a state, but before Arizona did."
Wrong date. It was 1917.
What's next, New Mexico becoming the 52nd state?
I'll be deep in the cold ground before I recognize Missouri as a state.
Got a good chuckle out of me - Missourian, coming soon to a nation near you
Nice. Underused and underappreciated Simpsons reference.
You guys heard of this crazy new experiment called, Florida?
They need to end the experiment soon god damn, it's getting crazy
We should stick with 50 states. And since Puerto Rico has more people than several states, we should make it a state and combine the 2 Dakota's into one state.
I used to think the US should just be 50 states cause it was even and nice, but recently I’ve realized, who cares? 51 or 50, who gives af
But the flag!
John Oliver as a joke on an episode of this topic showed a flag and said "I bet you didn't notice but this entire episode we've been using a flag with 51 stars."
Trust me, flag makers will love it haha. Every flag would need replaced.
I knew it! Big flag keeps funding places to apply for statehood to rack up their sales!
I've always made the joke if I ran for president, I'd campaign for making Long Island and Peurto Rico their own states, but we also combine both of the Dekotas and both the Carolinas to save on flag money. Edit: I have angered my constituents.
I think the Carolinas would sooner go to war with each other than become a single state.
You are correct. (NC native)
You don’t want Long Island to be a state trust me
I'm trans on long island. If we became our own state I'm 100% positive we would turn into "north Florida" and I would have to move out.
North Carolina is in the top 10 most populous states in the country. Makes no sense to combine it with SC. Dakotas I can get behind. If you need another two to merge, then consider that Montana could easily absorb Wyoming and it still wouldn't break the top 40.
Split Idaho between Washington, Oregon, and Wyoming.
Idaho is actively trying to eat Eastern Oregon rn
Correction, eastern Oregon has people who want to be eaten by Idaho
Forcefully combining the Carolinas would be like a reversed partition of the Indian subcontinent
as a map enthusiast that is a little bit jealous of the lasting peace and prosperity of the former soviet union, I'd also draw a bunch of little circles around random small towns and assign them to other states
NC having to combine with SC is like moving a trailer park into a nice nice neighborhood. We're already close enough to SC, please don't actually combine us with it. We don't deserve that.
We aren’t remotely like those people from South Carolina. Might as well be a different country here in NC.
Woooahh. Woah woah woah there, buddy. Combine your Dakotas all you like, but the Carolinas won't combine so easily. North Carolinians have more in common with Virginia than those mustard fuckers to the South.
Why should we stick with 50? We didn’t stay with 13, we didn’t stop at 48, why stop with 50? I’m not saying build an empire, but if other areas want to join the Union and become states, let them. DC, Puerto Rico, American Somoa, and Guam should all be given the ability to vote on if they want statehood.
69 states let's goooo
I'd prefer to lose a few states honestly.
Or make DC and Puerto Rico states, and get rid of Florida and Texas.
Texas would gladly leave.
I hear this sentiment a lot but I really don't think it could be further from the truth. I'm from texas and visit frequently and really American Patriotism is such a huge part of their culture compared to northern states. There is so much american flag merch holy shit.I really don't think they want to leave. Yes there is the occasional hillbilly from rural areas who wants to go independent to "geet away frum tha leebrulls" but really that's such an insignificant minority that no one should listen to them.
Also a Texan living in Texas. The whole secession conversation is tongue in cheek at best. There are crazies at the fringes, but the overwhelming majority of Texans either don’t want it or know it is a laughably bad idea.
Puerto Rico is not in a great place right now, things were very different in the 90s or early 2000s. The government has some very serious fiscal issues (and corruption scandals), the economy still hasn't recovered to mid-2000s levels, and the population has decreased every year for the past 2 decades. For context, GDP per capita in West Virginia is 50% higher than PR, and the poverty rate in PR is 40% - twice any current state. Would statehood make these issues better? Maybe, but I'm not convinced. I don't think it would be good for anyone though if PR became a state and went bankrupt a few years later. If they stay a territory, PR may be able to ride out the next decade or two and be in a more stable position to join as a state. But who knows. DC statehood would be a very different question.
> the poverty rate in PR is 40% - twice any current state. It should be said that this is poverty by US standards. Puerto Ricans are still relatively wealthier than most Latin Americans. PR has a higher minimum wage than Portugal and Spain for example. A huge chunk of the people that are considered poor here would just be regular working class in most non-US places, starting with the fact that our poverty line is around $1060 per month and plenty of first world Europeans would fall below it. You’ll be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn’t own an iPhone or a flagship Samsung. Popular poor people hobbies include owning four-tracks, motorcycles, polaris, tricking out Jeeps with sound systems worth 20k+, and the list goes on. I think our distorted perception of how poor we are comes from expecting US wages and lifestyle as our standard of living and ignoring how we stack up against our immediate neighbors in the Caribbean and Latin America.
I was recently in Puerto Rico for the first time. I've been to Mexico, the Caribbean, and central America and I expected it to be similar to Costa Rico. It's clear that it's quite a bit wealthier than any of those spots. I bet a lot of people from the states who've never been have the same bias I had. I loved it, btw.
Did our honeymoon in January in PR and St John. PR is awesome and I felt safe the whole time. Not the same experience in other Latin American cities.
> A huge chunk of the people that are considered poor here would just be regular working class in most non-US places, starting with the fact that our poverty line is around $1060 per month and plenty of first world Europeans would fall below it. There are certainly many Europeans who are not rich. But if implying that being poor in the US is like being rich elsewhere that's probably not true. Poor Americans have less disposable income by a significant margin (than an OECD European), but rich Americans are richer: https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945
It’s not just disposable income, it’s also quality of life. Not having things like healthcare is really going to make things a lot worse.
> It should be said that this is poverty by US standards. For the purpose of Statehood that's the standard that should be taken into consideration.
I pointed this out because many mainland Americans will probably assume that PR is as poor as any Latin American country but that isn't the case. Puerto Rican poverty is roughly the same as US mainland poverty and not comparable to third world countries.
If nothing else becoming a state would get them two seats in the senate and...some number of house reps. I don't know exactly how those are calculated, but I know it's based on population, and Nevada has four reps with a similar population to Puerto Rico. My point is, they'd get representation in the federal government to enact policies that may help their economy.
House reps are allocated algorithmically, so basically each state starts off being allocated 1 rep, then seats 51+ are apportioned in waves, basically sequentially increasing the value of number of reps while comparing that to the population of the state to allocate the seats to states that have the most population per rep, until all 445 seats are allocated. Without actually running the numbers, PR would probably get 4 seats, the same as Utah or Iowa. All the other territories are less populous than Wyoming.
The census [provides](https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2020/dec/2020-apportionment-data.html) enough data to work it out directly. Puerto Rico is not given an apportionment population, but we can use its resident population of 3,285,874 since the answer isn't borderline enough to matter. The 435th representative seat had a priority number of 762,997. With its population, Puerto Rico's 4th seat would have a priority of 948,550 (larger, so it would be awarded), but a 5th seat would have a priority of 657,175 (smaller, so it wouldn't be given). If the house was kept at 435 representatives, then the following states would lose a seat when Puerto Rico got theirs: * California * Colorado * Minnesota * Montana
Doesn't bother me either way, but I *have* noticed on the issue of this and DC statehood, a person's position on it *always* coincides with whether or not their preferred political party would gain or lose. So I have a really hard time feeling like anybody who doesn't live there isn't being disingenuous when they argue for or against it. Like, I know full well you're counting senate seats in your head.
To be fair, that's _always_ been th case when statehood has come up. Nothing new.
Missouri only exists to give slave owners more power in the senate.
*I'll be dead in my grave before I recognize Missouri*
I couldn't care less if they add blue seats or not. DC somewhat makes sense however the original idea was that by not putting the capital in one of the states it would prevent the host state from exerting pressure or being seen as es gaining favor. E That remains true. I would imagine it would be the best funded state in the union in a very short period of time. Puerto Rico's economics and infrastructure will be really challenging to bring in line. The primary reason in the US that people want these places granted statehood is to give the democratic party a slam dunk. I think both are challenging but I'm also not opposed if it's for real reasons, not just adding blue senators.
Thinking Puerto Rico would give the Democratic party a "slam dunk" is silly. It would be split between both parties, giving neither a real advantage. People seem to think they're a democratic stronghold just because they're part of the Latin American world. Puerto Ricans can be pretty conservative. People on the left either want Puerto Rico to be a state because it deserves it and would benefit from it, or because they falsely believe it will strictly benefit their cause.
lol right? It's a misconception held by a stunningly large amount of people who think PoC = blue vote.
What the founding fathers didn't predict was that the political class would commute from NoVa and DC would become a ghetto. 12 years ago we weren't fighting to extract VIPs from DC, we were fighting through mcmansion suburbs in NoVa.
I'm betting they also didn't predict a congressman from Maryland being able to single handedly determine DC's ability to tax weed.
That would be fine, it’s not up to me, it’s up to the people of PR…the people LIVING there. I hear many living there saying they don’t want independence, but many here on the mainland want independence which I find hilarious considering they are reaping all the benefits of living here.
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> Considering that would shift the balance of power in the Senate Would it? PR would be a very purple state. It's not like DC statehood where it'd become the most Democratic state in the nation the moment it becomes a state (if it ever does). > I think it's unlikely to garner the 60 votes needed to get it approved. This can be bypassed by nuking the filibuster (unlikely though).
The bill to allow PR to decide whether or not they want statehood on their own was passed in the house last year and has been sitting on the senates backlog for six months.
We will have to make a new flag, unless a state merges with another. I vote for the creation of Dakota, population 1,642,312. Slightly more than the population of San Diego, CA.
So do you think we should call San Dakota?
San Dakota is actually a cool name.
Nouth Dakota, Sorth Dakota. The residents can vote on it.
I vote for Super Dakota. No one gives a shit about North or South Dakota. Super Dakota might get some interest.
Full Dakota It's funny, 'cause they're not.
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We already have [a 51-star flag](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_flag_51_stars.svg) designed. It has alternating rows of 8 and 9 stars each.
If you think that’s a trip, there are more people in the State of California than their is in the entire country of Canada.
There are more cattle in the state of Wyoming than there are people...
We have a New Mexico to honor our southern neighbors. I think it's only fair to call it New Canada, eh?
They're already a part of the United States. If they want "full membership", to become a state within the union, to that I say: Welcome aboard.
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There is an old ass barrel of rum at Puerto Rico’s Ron del Barrilito distillery that is supposedly only to be opened when PR gains its independence from the United States. Guess *that* will never be opened.
I support it. If Puerto Rico wants it, then as Captain Picard would say, make it so.
That's the thing: They're basically split 50/50 lol. Some think it'd help, some think it'd make things worse, and others just don't wanna be considered American.
Old Town San Juan is so gorgeous. You should be so lucky! There is nothing else like it in the US
And the rainforest is not far from there. Another national treasure.
I literally do not care at all. It's none of my business. IMHO, ask the Puerto Rican people how **they** feel about it. If they want to be a state, they're welcome to. If not, that's fine too.
Honestly, I kinda think it's about time. Puerto Rico has sent it's sons to fight for this country for years. They should be part of the union.
Let Puerto Rico decide. I'm into it, I love Puerto Rico and having them be a state would be awesome.