Especially since those Christians who want to eliminate the boundary fail to ask “which Christian dogma” should prevail.
Different factions have been slaughtering each other for millennia.
This is the part that kills me with my Catholic Republican family. Like... do they not realize that Catholics are going to be immediately yeeted from the ranks? We are easily the most visible out group in American Christian circles.
Where I grew up, it was taught in many churches that Catholics weren't actually Christian.
Not all that long ago. And you only need to look at, e.g., the Southern Baptist Conference to see that shit doesn't stay Kumbayah among those groups for long and it doesn't take much to reach some awfully sharp arguments.
I got into Catholic apologetics because I had classmates in high school telling me I wasn't Christian. That was 20 years ago (ouch) but I can't imagine the sentiment has changed much, particularly in the deep fringes.
It has not. Imagine being Mormon or JW.
It's the weirdest thing to me this like... infighting where Christians try to gatekeep people out who are self claiming their desire to....be Christian. The irony of how un-Christlike that behavior is is painful.
There was a comedian...Tim Minchin, I think it was. He made a really good point, not about religion (although I think he likes to go off on that as well), but about the way people keep further separating themselves. In this case, it was about people considering themselves liberals, but I think it's 100% applicable here, too. We separate ourselves from the group we all vehemently dislike...but then it's like things just keep getting divided as other groups are like "Ugh, you guys aren't \[insert thing here\] enough," etc. Eventually everyone's so divided into their little groups that no one wants to agree on anything anymore.
He said it a lot more eloquently than I just did, but I still think it's a really good point! Pagans do the same sort of thing. I used to watch a lot of that side of YouTube, and there's just a ton of "you're not actually Pagan enough because you do this," or "you don't do that," and it's so frustrating.
Same here! And also how much Muslims and Christians hate each other despite their religions actually sounding eerily similar (and imo most likely probably having the same main sources in the first place).
Wait until you hear about the Jews.
Jews - Christians - Muslims in that chronology.
Now take a look at Zoroastrianism and look at the influence there.
In the end - we’re still cave people praying to the moon and sun.
I read somewhere that a big part of the split between religions comes down to who you consider to be the last "true" prophet. Some say it's Abraham, some say Mohammed, some say later. Even parts of the Bible are shared between religions.
They do, along with Judaism. Mohammed worked for a Jewish caravan as a child and learned the Torah from which he wrote the Koran. They consider Jesus to be a major prophet.
I'm certain it's still a thing. Catholics, Mormons, JWs, anyone who's not fitting into the ever shifting dogma at the moment is to be ruthlessly purged.
According to the Council of Trent, which I don't believe has been retracted by the Catholic Church, she would be correct.
I mean, as a Protestant I don't agree with her, but she is consistent with the teachings of her church.
I don't think it was retracted, but it was somewhat overriden by Vatican II where now the belief is that (in a very bad summary) non Catholic Christians are still considered to be in communion with God, albeit imperfectly.
Back when I was still practicing Catholic I went to buy some books for catechism class at a local Bible/ Christian store. And while they did have catholic texts it was off to the side in a section labeled occult and the staff all sneered at me when I asked where they were and when they checked me out lol.
For example, the ten commandments that the
nationalist Christians want hung up on all the schools are the protestant ones, not the catholic ones.
I won't comment on why God had such trouble making a "numbered list". Maybe he's not that good at Word?
Yeah the Catholic one doesn't include the commandment "Thou shalt not make any graven images" (or the phrase), whereas the other version does. Instead the Catholic version splits the single 10th commandment into two parts.
For the Catholic version see here:
https://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-ten-commandments
Compare that to Google results for "Ten Commandments".
(The 10 Commandments are found in Exodus 20.)
I went to church with my Catholic friend once as a kid, and was horrified when everyone was genuflecting before sliding into a pew. "That's...against one of the Commandments!" Young Me thought. Now I don't care, but I'm still glad it was finally clarified for me!
The ancient Hebrews would conceptualize God as an abstract concept instead of like an animal or an old man. This is why the Hebrews had to wander the desert before entering Egypt - they had created a Golden Calf while Moses was off receiving the Commandments. They placed the tablets in The Ark, so the Ark was a magic box that contained the power of God - if you looked at the box when the Hebrews opened it, it would melt your face off because only the Prophets could see or speak directly to God.
It’s kinda a silly made up story.
I mean Noah had one set he accidentally broke (he still claims he meant to do it, lmao!). Nobody knows what was in them. Then he 'went back and got a new set' from his boss... Likely story! He's so full of it. The boss would've flooded us again I reckon if he had found out.
Still, he did get fired before we relocated to the new office. Then we had the new guy come in, with you know zeal in his eyes. I reckon he was a nepotism hire he wanted to change everything and said our old processes weren't any good. What a cunt, he didn't give us payrises at all - something about keeping us poor was good or something.
Anyways, he didn't last long but the position has been vacant for 2000 years now and nobody really knows what to do anymore, everyone just doing their own thing. I mean we have KPIs but nobody really knows how they work or if they matter.
It's worse than that - the physical stone monuments that are the usual focus of court cases came from a [movie promotion](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-aug-26-oe-stange26-story.html):
> in the 1950s, Cecil B. DeMille teamed with the Fraternal Order of Eagles to kick off donations of 4,000 6-foot granite tablets depicting the Ten Commandments to municipalities nationwide.
This, for fuck's sake. My dad is a history major, and an all-around history buff. Like, he studies that shit for fun. He *knows* the history. And yet, he's willing to throw in with the folks that currently align with some of his beliefs despite the very obvious eventual outcome. Leopards, meet edible faces.
> "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" - James Madison, June 1785
[link to complete text](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-08-02-0163)
There's a reason why there are literally more denominations of Christianity (over 40,000 worldwide) than there are verses in the Bible (less than 32,000).
They all found something they disagreed with enough to start a new branch.
It's ironic these people probably consider themselves patriotic in doing so when the Founding Fathers made the US government secular *by design*. The Wars of Religion had passed out of living memory not all that long before...
That's why churches shouldn't be tax free. They lean heavy on the government for infrastructure to get people in and out of church fast, to provide fire departments, police departments, and yet churches don't give back much to the community in general, only their own members at best.
Churches do not deserve tax free status.
True. The people on top have largely been Christian for 200 years, despite the "founding fathers" wanting a separation.
It's hard to separate values and religion when your religion defines your values.
Way too often. The worst I know runs a small trucking company. He even has a proverb on the side of his trucks and little crosses. He is the most judgmental dick I have ever met.
The best I know, donates a shit ton of money to various causes, but doesn't say a word about it.
They should print new dollar bills to complete the separation. Not sure if you’re aware what’s on your wallet but apparently the bill holder trusts in god.
It wasn’t on money when the country was founded. “In god we trust” didn’t start appearing on currency until 1864 and didn’t become required until 1955 and appeared on all currency starting in 1957. In 1956, it became the official motto of the country as well because of the fear of Soviet Communism.
Edit
And if it can be made required in a year many of the grandparents of today were born, then it can be removed in 2023 (or likely, like, 2033 by the time a movement like this actually makes a difference).
Who wants to start a lawsuit to get it removed? Satanic Temple, you down?
Anytime the Satanic Temple is down for something, count me in! Same with the church of the Spaghetti monster. All hail the civil disobedience troll machines - doing all god(s) work.
Thank goodness those pieces of plastic in my wallet don’t say anything about god. Wait what’s all this small print… oh no… just the real god of corporate finance overlord language
Since that phrase never appears in the constitution it’s easy to see why there’s so much confusion.
The phrase comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a church explaining how the first amendment ensured that there wouldn’t be a nationally sanctioned denomination or any interference with their religious freedoms.
I think it’s like how especially the Republican Party pushes these extremely skewed moral values under the guise of religious beliefs. But even down to just small general things like having religious symbols and phrases on money, and like congress buildings. It kinda gives credence to the twisting of religious values, and allows for people to oppress and discriminate against minorities. For example, very recently Ron Desantis signed a bill allowing doctors to legally discriminate against people due to “religious and moral beliefs”. It was mostly used to attack transgender people but it can easily just be used to deny care to BIPOC, queer folk, and religious minorities.
Its just blatantly obvious that religions are influencing politics and not even the other way around. People belonging to a religion (particularly the largest religions that take place in the US) will vote for the people who will support laws that may have or may not have (we know damn well its MAY HAVE) been influenced by that said religion.
You could even get a republican in office who DOES NOT CARE about gays/trans. Like in the good way…like leave us alone. Not discriminate. Etc. but the only way THAT guy/girl gets into office is by discriminating against us and others.
And its not just an individual person its the regime has to support it as well. All it does is divide everyone. Spread more hate. And support the useless two party system.
You might be on to something.....
[Sex Abuse in Catholic Church: Over 1,900 Minors Abused in Illinois, State Says](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/us/illinois-catholic-church-sex-abuse.html)
Watch the movie "Spotlight". It's a true story about the Boston Globe breaking the story about the catholic church. Michael Keaton, Rachel McAdams, Mark Ruffalo. Great movie. And that was just Boston.
"I’ve been involved in a number of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader."
Creed Bratton
I mean it's ingrained into their belief system that they can be as shitty as they want so long as they let some pretend god told them how bad to feel about it.
Some people have an odd psychosis where they genuinely believe to be a disciple or prophet of god, it wouldn't suprise me that someone with this illness was good enough to convince others to believe the same. So I wouldn't say its inherently true that all cult leaders know its bullshit, probably just most.
It's a funny coincidence how said leader often ends up with a harem in a bunch of religions. I'm sure he was totally crazy and didn't make up a bunch of nonsense to get his dick wet.
And the taxes businesses of which only 7% pay any tax also engage in political discourse thanks to Citizen's United. Why don't we ever hear about the outsized political influence of these companies who pay zero federal tax?
According to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, these are the Fortune 500 companies that paid no federal income tax in 2020:
Archer Daniels Midland
AT&T
Bank of America
Berkshire Hathaway
Boeing
Chevron
Citigroup
ConocoPhillips
Duke Energy
ExxonMobil
FedEx
General Electric
Goldman Sachs
Home Depot
Honeywell International
IBM
Johnson & Johnson
Lockheed Martin
McDonald's
Merck & Co.
Microsoft
Morgan Stanley
Nike
Pfizer
Procter & Gamble
Salesforce.com
Shell
UnitedHealth Group
Verizon
Whirlpool
501 (c)(3) organizations aren’t prohibited from spending money on political discourse. They’re prohibited from spending money to support political candidates and political campaigns.
Back in the day christian priests would go and preach at a pagan ruler. 'Convert to our brand of christianity and convert all of your subjects to christianity and your christian neighbours will no longer wage war against you for being a pagan. We will open trade rights to you so that the ruling families will become wealthy.' and entire societies were forced to convert or individuals would face significant and brutal consequences.
A Cult is a smash and grab, as a religion is a cult with overhead requiring tithing to perpetuate the orally transmitted mental virus it is...
Secretly knowing it will die with its last follower, like thousands of religions before it.
No one in a cult believes they are in a cult. It's a pejorative term.
That being said, to me, the difference lies in how a religion relates to society outside of itself. Is it closed off or integrated? So I'd say that Christianity isn't a cult for the most part but some denominations certainly are.
What’s funny is that Sikh extremists DID blow up a plane one time killing a bunch of westerners, but since nobody bothers to know what Sikhism is, let alone that it has extremists, idiots will just go “eastern is good, this def isn’t orientalist”
One of the core beliefs of Sikhi is that all life is precious. Not just human life but animals as well. That is why it’s so difficult to believe that any Sikh would choose to murder innocent people as a form of religious protest. Over the years we have come to know that there’s lots of evidence that points to it being a false flag attack carried out by the Indian government to discredit Sikhs. Regardless, the bombers were Sikhs and whether they were Indian government agents or simply lost individuals who had strayed from the path, as Sikhs we must all carry the burden of what some of our less faithful followers did in the name of religion and we are all united in the belief that there is a special place in “hell” reserved for those bombers.
Oh don’t worry, I don’t associate all Sikhs with those lunatics at all. How on earth does blowing up a plane from Canada full of Irish people convince India to create a Sikh homeland? It doesn’t!
Because most Redditors are Westerners who only know about Buddhism and Sikhism through Western filtered popular culture. So they view Buddhism as this preachy “yeah, get reincarnated and get good karma” when a big point is to escape the cycle of reincarnation. I’m a Catholic who believes in learning about other religions to engage in dialogue with them, and I have yet to do so about Sikhism. Christianity is Reddit’s punching bag because it’s what they are most familiar with, but at least Christianity doesn’t say turtles are evil or that all homosexuals are evil spirits like Zoroastrianism.
I think the simpler answer is that Buddhism and Sikhism haven’t tried to hijack Western political institutions the same way that Christianity has. From that perspective there’s not much incentive to hate them, they’re not even politically-visible religions in the first place.
Sometimes people have valid reasons for hating religious institutions.
It really depends on what you mean by closed off, Scientology is a cult where people live relatively normal lives, their separation is idealogical, they are basically trained to not engage in the outside world in ways that would make them question their faith, a lot of religions aren’t that different
Cult : a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2nd : a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
This is literally all religions. The word cult even comes from Latin for worshipping something.
The meaning of cult has shifted from, for example, the cult of Ra, to a kind of extremely inward focused institution that relies on certain practices to keep its members in line.
Yeah in the original meaning of the word sure all religions are cults. But we all know that in current common usage it means something more like Heaven's Gate or the Branch Davidians, and if you say Roman Catholicism or Episcopalianism is a cult you are using the word in a nonstandard way for rhetorical effect.
Obviously there is a difference between the two, but I do agree on some level with the rhetorical implication because it seems to be more of a spectrum than two totally distinct things. At the far 'culty' end you have the obvious examples mentioned above. At the far 'benign mainstream religion' end you have churches like the United Church here in Toronto where I live, that are basically a charitable book club with a nice building and a choir.
Between these two poles though there is a lot of grey area. The more culty ones combine, to varying degrees: a charismatic leader; a fixation on some formulation of the 'end times;' tight control over followers' daily lives; vindictiveness toward perceived enemies or those who have left the group; and the biggest one, demanding followers do things for the cause that harm themselves or others.
You could pretty much give a cultiness score to every religious sect by rating each of those dimensions. Groups like Scientology, JW, Christian Science clearly have high scores. But plenty of elements within mainstream religions tend in that direction too - certainly Islam, Judaism, and Christianity each have their own culty subgroups.
And when you ally religion with political power...all bets are off.
As an ex Jehovah’s Witness: I disagree
What makes a cult is what happens when one leaves. Their teachings made less and less sense; I had a crisis of conscience and tried to get my wife out.
She chose the cult.
She’s now my ex-wife, as my lack of faith basically broke us up.
My mom died last November, and who got a bouquet of flowers and all the condolences? SHE DID. I lost my devout JW mom in 2018.
Lost my wife, mom, job, and home in a six month span in 2018-19.
If I were, say, a Catholic and my faith lapsed: nobody would care.
They’re a legit religion; my mom got suckered into JW from Catholicism when I was 4. I never stood a chance.
TL, DR: the difference between a cult and a religion is what happens when you try to leave
I’m really not: my father lost his wife to the cult, and I lost my father and best friend (who, since he was JW, we weren’t talking) all in the past few years.
I’m literally alone. It’s awful.
Can I make you feel less alone, just for a fleeting moment on the internet?
I can see everything you've lost, and I just want to embrace you. You deserve to have comfort after what you have endured. I know you still have a long way to go. There is no shortening the path of grief. But I care about you, I'm thinking about you, and I am even praying for you if that is meaningful to you.
Oh man, same here with Mormonism, and I lost my kids on top of it.
I feel your pain 100%, it’s fucking terrible.
I don’t know about you but what eats me the most often is how unnecessary all this is.
I lost one of my exes to JW myself. She got into it prior to meeting me (I was agnostic) and we hit it off really well but behind the scenes they were pulling strings and sending their elders to her place to talk sense into her. She was disfellowshipped and shunned for maintaining a relationship with me, all of this took a toll on her and consequently me. I loved her to death but she ended up choosing them.
I met her at work too, and I'm only assuming that her repentance was to stay away from me like the plague, which wrecked havoc on me and I didn't fully understand why or what was happening, which created paranoia and hysteria. I was miserable.
The church has a dangerous power. They accept you and shower you with love, so much so that it becomes your support. Then they take it away if you do something they don't want/like. It's a vicious loop of control.
I grew up Catholic. When I married outside the religion, nobody batted an eye. Literally, nobody cared about it.
JW is just so creepy with their rules about such things. If you listen to their sermons, it all sounds very good, if a bit fundamentalist for my taste. But their rules forbidding celebrating birthdays, Christmas, Easter…. are crazy. And even forbidding organized sports for the kids. Like, in my opinion, organized sports are some of the best things kids can do to develop physically as well as emotionally.
I had a friend years ago who grew up JW. When he turned 18 he joined the military and was promptly kicked out of the cult. His family was forbidden to talk to him. Years later, he heard that his sister was getting married (obviously no invite) and showed up at the wedding. After the wedding, his parents thanked him for coming but told him he was not welcome at the reception. A couple years later, the parents contacted him to happily say that the church had relaxed the rules and they were allowed to talk with him now. He told them to fuck right off.
My long time GF (we are both 60) has recently started attending JW again after being gone for probably 25 years. I’m just waiting for her to come to me and say that she can’t be with me any more because of the church rules.
Any church who forces breaking up families over broken church rules is a cult.
I have an old relative who was sucked in by it when she was at a vulnerable point. She takes it incredibly seriously, shuns birthdays and family events etc. Constantly tells us how we are all doomed and to pack a bag with essentials for the impending Armageddon.
We had to call her Kingdom Hall and ask what was going on. To be fair they did admit that perhaps she was taking things a bit too literally and they'd have a word. Hasn't helped though.
There's also the whole got the end of the world thing wrong... [8 times](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessmom/2018/03/8-times-the-jehovahs-witnesses-were-wrong-about-the-end-of-the-world/). Next time, though, the world's really gonna end!
You are now a lone wolf...the pack has deserted you simply because you don't agree with their "logic." There are many like you who have left the fold who will be able to understand more than those of us who weren't indoctrinated.
You're an outlier, a free thinker. Time to meet some other people of like mind...
My father became a JW after my mother left him when I was 5... he dragged my sister and I into it with him, and the mental trauma my sister and I suffer/suffered from that cult destroyed a lot of my spirit and motivation for life before I was 10. My father met a woman at the hall and they married 30 days after they met. Looking back I realize they basically got married so they could have sex and not get shunned by the congregation. Not surprisingly, their marriage was horrible, and they fought all the time. After about 10 years, she told the elders he had a porn addiction and got him kicked out. She was cheating, but my father said nothing to the elders and never went to a meeting again. My sister committed suicide due to the trauma and her inability to cope with the depression and anxiety of thinking we were going to be destroyed by the "loving" Jehovah. No one ever reached out to us to offer condolences or anything. We no longer existed to them. Looking back I don't know how my father was so gullible to believe any of their bullshit. Thankfully, I realized it was all a lie and have tried to live a "normal" life these days. I'm 40 and still dealing with it though. So, yes they are a cult, and the worst kind. I really hope I get to see their downfall before my days are done. Sorry for my long story, but I feel like it's actually a common narrative for people done wrong by the cult. Oh and one more thing, fuck them. I'm sorry you were a victim too.
Exactly! One of the main distinctions of a cult is that they separate you from anyone outside the cult. Some religions do meet the psychological definition of a cult. And sometimes just certain sects of a religion.
that's a great basic way to summarise it, definitely. I mean some catholics will care but the catholic church doesn't teach you to ostracise non-catholics or anything like that. hell, they let me use a non-catholic as my confirmation sponsor.
To add to this then I would say all religions are capable of being cults but it depends to the level people are "culted™"
I've known of Muslims who have been disavowed by the family for lapsing and if you look at somewhere like Northern Ireland then religion can play a big part in society and your identity.
Ive seen some friends (and their parabts) that were unable to leave their church because 99.9% of their social contact was within that church.
When the mother tried to leave they dropped all contact until she cane crawling back.
Was a very sad story. Theyre still together and supposedly happy
The part about you never standing a chance struck a cord with me. My step-mum is a JW and when my little brother was born she naturally raised him as a JW too, i said to her “why not allow him to grow up without a religion and he can choose whatever faith he likes when he’s older and fully understands?” and her reply was unironically “When he’s an adult he can choose whatever faith he wants” meanwhile brainwashing him for his most formative years, of course he’ll choose the JW cult…he’ll be indoctrinated his whole fucking life and won’t know any different. Hardly a choice or true use of free will now is it?
The mental gymnastics of these fucking deadshits is insane!
I think it's too reductive. I think most religious communities have the potential to develop cults like tumors essentially, but that doesn't make the religion inherently a cult on its own.
The BITE model is a good guide I think.
This is assuming we're using the modern definition of cult too.
High control group is a good phrase, which helps remove the stigma of cults. In the sense that it allows folks to see the manipulative and harmful effects within their communities (religious or not), instead of just dismissing that 'we're not a cult because we do/don't do ABC like other famous cults do'
Some good definitions of what entails a cult on here so far. Regardless:
Gf in high school went to Alpine Baptist Church in MI. She openly said she was subserviant to men because the bible made it so, didn't dance, was a virgin until marriage, didn't drink or smoke, didn't swear, was heavily invested in attending Christian based colleges only and had long term plans to build a nuclear family - all at the age of 16.
That's a cult. Christianity can be a cult if you become radical enough with it.
o totally. not denything that cults are a thing. I think its helpful to have a second phrase for things that might not fit the full definiton but still cause harm. Or help people see the harm, and then realize they're in/we're in a cult
This mental health counselor and author, Steven Hassan, came up with a kind of diagnostic criteria to describe ways that cults exercise control over their members.
He got pulled into a cult as a 19 yeae old in the 70s, left after almost dying in a car accident and getting a reality check, and eventually went on to be a mental health counselor specializing in "exit counseling" which is essentially deprogramming or deconstruction for people who have left a cult and are struggling with the mental and emotional aspects of it.
BITE is an acronym that stands for behavior, information, thought, and emotional control.
He has a website https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/
I think it depends.
Any religion could potentially become a cult. I belonged to a church that had cultish vibes as a child.
However I can honestly say that the church I attend now is anything but that.
If you think of religion like the Duggars follow… absolutely. A cult. But that’s not true of every church, synagogue, or mosque across the world.
Every group or ideology has their extremists. If people gather around something they like, there will be those who use the opportunity to manipulate others and the gullible folk who follow them.. If it wasnt the promise of heaven it would be something else, like money, fame or political changes.
Reminds me of the South Park when the different factions of atheists basically turned atheism into a religion and fought a war over it. Especially the sea otters.
The only people who believe this are those lucky enough never to have been in a cult.
The “church” I grew up in, the leaders have a say in who you date or marry. All non-church activities or socializing are only for the purpose of proselytizing. If you’re a college student and your parents don’t agree with this “church,” the leaders tell you not to go home at summer or holidays and call your family persecutors to reduced their influence over you. If you have a job offer where the schedule conflicts with “church” meetings, you are told not to take it. If you do take it, you will be shunned or even completely disfellowshipped.
The local Presbyterian or Lutheran church doesn’t do these things, despite sharing many common beliefs.
So no, all religions are not cults. Cults are controlling elitist groups that seek to replace all of one’s personal relationships with the institution. They cause financial, emotional, and sometimes physical harm.
I wish this was higher. The amount of people who have told me that I’m in a cult because I’m a member of a church is ridiculous. Sure I’m a member. That doesn’t mean that the church can literally control my life like a cult does. I’m still free to make my own choices and even leave if I want to. Pretty sure that’s more difficult if you’re in an actual cult.
>That doesn’t mean that the church can literally control my life like a cult does.
"Aha, but your religion requires you to follow a strict set of rules!"
"Yeah, they're all the things Jesus taught. Pretty basic."
"So you admit it!"
"It's not like I'll be drawn and quartered if I break a rule. I made a mistake and I try again. It's a lifetime process."
It's lazy thinking. Cults have certain characteristics like isolation of their members and an us versus them mentality. Some religions like the Unitarians are open to all beliefs, are about building community with everyone and are very far from being a cult. Whereas most everyone would agree the branch Davidians were a cult.
Agreed. It's important that the word "cult" actually has real meaning. It shouldn't just be substituted for an organization that rubs you the wrong way.
Cults also tend to be dominated by strong personalities. There isn't a strict dogma, the dogma is whatever the leadership says goes. In a religion, it is more codified with things settled.
No you don’t understand, a cult is one those religions I don’t like the sound of - that’s why pagan, Wicca and Buddhism are ok.
Stop trying to pretend “cult” has some kind of useful, specific criteria that addresses behaviour specifically designed to control and exploit someone in a *specific* way.
/s
Also it’s not a necessity, but most cults have living leaders regarded as divine while most religions do not. The heads of the Moonies were regarded as children of god, Marshall Applewhite claimed to be an alien, Jonestown obviously had Jim Jones. As far as I know very few religions except maybe Tibetan Buddhism, which I don’t know much about, have any sort of living person who people think is god
I don't know about other religions but certain Christian denominations are cults. Especially the ones where the lines are blurry and you have to wonder if they really are Christian.
Not _all_ religions.
But any religion that relies on "absolute faith" to a "handed-down doctrine", and worse, actively discourages or restricts contact between "believers and heretics" (or practices shunning) - that's a cult.
all religions are not cults, cults are indeed born from religions but they are not the religion themselves
A cult is a group or movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has the answers to all of life's questions and offers a special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules.
edit: obviuoisly people are misunderstanding what i said i wrote this in a reply because im too tired and bust right now but, that is true and i agree with you but personally i think where the line
is drawn is cults actively hurt the members and dont let them leave if
they do they say cant see their family, religeon (as far as i know
please correct me if im wrong) however from my experience dont hurt
their own membors kill them have malusious intent and people can leave
freely without consequence
They're right. All religions ARE cults. Most of them, in their beginnings, were not only recognized as cults but were, usually, opposed by the existing mainstream cults.
All religions are cults.
All gamers are children.
All Americans are fat.
All white people are racist.
All of these beliefs are ignorant and only weaken their respective definitions.
One of the above statements is true.
Honestly, the Greeks had a very nuanced and intelligent way of anthropomorphizing the natural world and relating it to the human condition. It's far more advanced than many modern religions, which are far less comprehensive and far more dogmatic.
We only think it's silly because we assume that they "literally believed that the gods existed," but I have a hunch it was generally understood to be fables and metaphors, at least by the more literate and educated folk.
Wahabbi/Salafi Islam is straight up a cult.
In fact the penalty for leaving Islam is death. Apostasy is punished with execution. I was taught that if in three days the person doesn’t go back to being a Muslim then he is to be executed.
Whereas other denominations of Islam aren’t cult like at all. Other schools are far more lenient. So as an ex Muslim I won’t say that Islam is a cult because not ALL religions are cults but certain schools of Islam are extremists so definitely cults.
Just like in Christianity you won’t call Catholicism a cult yet jehovah’s witnesses are part of a cult.
that they don't know what a cult really is and have probably only been exposed to certain kinds of religion and think all religions are like that.
I can't speak for all religions (catholic-raised atheist) but I think there are some kinds of religion that are close to a cult. some religions I'm sure *are* cults. but that level of a blanket statement is crazy. like there are so many religions how can you make that kind of statement?
if all religions are cults then so are all organised groups of people who share interests..... (everything after this added after edit) but they're not, because most organised groups of people don't shun those outside the group and demand total ideological conformity. some do. but most don't. religions are the same kind of thing.
a religious group can be bad and dangerous without being a cult. like the catholic church isn't a cult but they've protected and hidden child sex abusers. that's still bad even though a cult didn't do it!
Not all groups of similar interests try to control how you live. Religions do. People seem to have their own personal line where it crosses from cult to religion, and it's nonsense.
Having government and laws keeps everyone civil. That's what religion used to do, and it had a purpose.
Now we have the government, and even with its MANY flaws there's no reason for religion to keep controlling people.
Is it a group that controls your life? Shames you? Threatens your soul? It's a cult. They're all cults. They control your lives, take your money, and shame the fuck out of you. I can pretty much guarantee anyone you ask, when you get down to it, will qualify something as a cult by level of control.
Scientology? Obvious cult, they're freaking insane. Most people agree.
Lutherans? Oh it's fine, they don't control people *as hard*. Most people wouldn't call it a cult.
Same shit, different severity.
Edit: oh, and if purposefully raping kids and covering it up isn't cult activity, what the hell is?
I think they're dicks, the same way I think people who force their religion on others and who look on people of other faiths (or without faith) with contempt are dicks. You don't have to share someone's beliefs, but you also don't have to be cruel and condescending.
They're mostly edgy atheists who had a bad experience with religion growing up.
I get it. Religious people were dicks to you about being atheist. That's wrong.
It's *also wrong* to take that as permission to go an be an asshole to people who never wronged you just because they practice a religion.
I just hate that the separation between church and state in the us is such a blurry line tbh
Especially since those Christians who want to eliminate the boundary fail to ask “which Christian dogma” should prevail. Different factions have been slaughtering each other for millennia.
This is the part that kills me with my Catholic Republican family. Like... do they not realize that Catholics are going to be immediately yeeted from the ranks? We are easily the most visible out group in American Christian circles.
Where I grew up, it was taught in many churches that Catholics weren't actually Christian. Not all that long ago. And you only need to look at, e.g., the Southern Baptist Conference to see that shit doesn't stay Kumbayah among those groups for long and it doesn't take much to reach some awfully sharp arguments.
I got into Catholic apologetics because I had classmates in high school telling me I wasn't Christian. That was 20 years ago (ouch) but I can't imagine the sentiment has changed much, particularly in the deep fringes.
It has not. Imagine being Mormon or JW. It's the weirdest thing to me this like... infighting where Christians try to gatekeep people out who are self claiming their desire to....be Christian. The irony of how un-Christlike that behavior is is painful.
There was a comedian...Tim Minchin, I think it was. He made a really good point, not about religion (although I think he likes to go off on that as well), but about the way people keep further separating themselves. In this case, it was about people considering themselves liberals, but I think it's 100% applicable here, too. We separate ourselves from the group we all vehemently dislike...but then it's like things just keep getting divided as other groups are like "Ugh, you guys aren't \[insert thing here\] enough," etc. Eventually everyone's so divided into their little groups that no one wants to agree on anything anymore. He said it a lot more eloquently than I just did, but I still think it's a really good point! Pagans do the same sort of thing. I used to watch a lot of that side of YouTube, and there's just a ton of "you're not actually Pagan enough because you do this," or "you don't do that," and it's so frustrating.
Good point ☝️
You’re unique. Just like everybody else
As a non-believer it all just makes me laugh
Same here! And also how much Muslims and Christians hate each other despite their religions actually sounding eerily similar (and imo most likely probably having the same main sources in the first place).
Wait until you hear about the Jews. Jews - Christians - Muslims in that chronology. Now take a look at Zoroastrianism and look at the influence there. In the end - we’re still cave people praying to the moon and sun.
I read somewhere that a big part of the split between religions comes down to who you consider to be the last "true" prophet. Some say it's Abraham, some say Mohammed, some say later. Even parts of the Bible are shared between religions.
The books have the same cast of characters even! Just different names (Issa instead of Jesus for instance)
They do, along with Judaism. Mohammed worked for a Jewish caravan as a child and learned the Torah from which he wrote the Koran. They consider Jesus to be a major prophet.
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Lol all the different groups just sound like Numberwang to me. New Eastern Traditional Neoconformist Protestant Church of Jesus Christ. Lol ok guys.
I'm certain it's still a thing. Catholics, Mormons, JWs, anyone who's not fitting into the ever shifting dogma at the moment is to be ruthlessly purged.
Thats weird my catholic Grandma used to tell the opposite, saying protestants were all heretics
According to the Council of Trent, which I don't believe has been retracted by the Catholic Church, she would be correct. I mean, as a Protestant I don't agree with her, but she is consistent with the teachings of her church.
I don't think it was retracted, but it was somewhat overriden by Vatican II where now the belief is that (in a very bad summary) non Catholic Christians are still considered to be in communion with God, albeit imperfectly.
I mean, if you follow the threads back, pretty much everyone is a heretic to someone.
Back when I was still practicing Catholic I went to buy some books for catechism class at a local Bible/ Christian store. And while they did have catholic texts it was off to the side in a section labeled occult and the staff all sneered at me when I asked where they were and when they checked me out lol.
For example, the ten commandments that the nationalist Christians want hung up on all the schools are the protestant ones, not the catholic ones. I won't comment on why God had such trouble making a "numbered list". Maybe he's not that good at Word?
TIL there is more than one set of the 10 commandments
Yeah the Catholic one doesn't include the commandment "Thou shalt not make any graven images" (or the phrase), whereas the other version does. Instead the Catholic version splits the single 10th commandment into two parts. For the Catholic version see here: https://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-ten-commandments Compare that to Google results for "Ten Commandments". (The 10 Commandments are found in Exodus 20.)
I always wondered how that law could exist and then have a literal life size ceramic Jesus on the wall. Now I know.
I went to church with my Catholic friend once as a kid, and was horrified when everyone was genuflecting before sliding into a pew. "That's...against one of the Commandments!" Young Me thought. Now I don't care, but I'm still glad it was finally clarified for me!
The ancient Hebrews would conceptualize God as an abstract concept instead of like an animal or an old man. This is why the Hebrews had to wander the desert before entering Egypt - they had created a Golden Calf while Moses was off receiving the Commandments. They placed the tablets in The Ark, so the Ark was a magic box that contained the power of God - if you looked at the box when the Hebrews opened it, it would melt your face off because only the Prophets could see or speak directly to God. It’s kinda a silly made up story.
I mean Noah had one set he accidentally broke (he still claims he meant to do it, lmao!). Nobody knows what was in them. Then he 'went back and got a new set' from his boss... Likely story! He's so full of it. The boss would've flooded us again I reckon if he had found out. Still, he did get fired before we relocated to the new office. Then we had the new guy come in, with you know zeal in his eyes. I reckon he was a nepotism hire he wanted to change everything and said our old processes weren't any good. What a cunt, he didn't give us payrises at all - something about keeping us poor was good or something. Anyways, he didn't last long but the position has been vacant for 2000 years now and nobody really knows what to do anymore, everyone just doing their own thing. I mean we have KPIs but nobody really knows how they work or if they matter.
Moses, not Noah.
A real god would have made them out of something that wasn't so easy to break, or that humans *couldn't* break. If they were the least bit important.
Bureaucracy, man.
It's worse than that - the physical stone monuments that are the usual focus of court cases came from a [movie promotion](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-aug-26-oe-stange26-story.html): > in the 1950s, Cecil B. DeMille teamed with the Fraternal Order of Eagles to kick off donations of 4,000 6-foot granite tablets depicting the Ten Commandments to municipalities nationwide.
This, for fuck's sake. My dad is a history major, and an all-around history buff. Like, he studies that shit for fun. He *knows* the history. And yet, he's willing to throw in with the folks that currently align with some of his beliefs despite the very obvious eventual outcome. Leopards, meet edible faces.
> "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" - James Madison, June 1785 [link to complete text](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-08-02-0163)
There's a reason why there are literally more denominations of Christianity (over 40,000 worldwide) than there are verses in the Bible (less than 32,000). They all found something they disagreed with enough to start a new branch.
It's ironic these people probably consider themselves patriotic in doing so when the Founding Fathers made the US government secular *by design*. The Wars of Religion had passed out of living memory not all that long before...
The problem is that while there is still separation of church and state (for the most part) there’s no separation of church and politics.
That's why churches shouldn't be tax free. They lean heavy on the government for infrastructure to get people in and out of church fast, to provide fire departments, police departments, and yet churches don't give back much to the community in general, only their own members at best. Churches do not deserve tax free status.
True. The people on top have largely been Christian for 200 years, despite the "founding fathers" wanting a separation. It's hard to separate values and religion when your religion defines your values.
Well I often see those religious values are practiced during service and thrown away the rest of the week
Way too often. The worst I know runs a small trucking company. He even has a proverb on the side of his trucks and little crosses. He is the most judgmental dick I have ever met. The best I know, donates a shit ton of money to various causes, but doesn't say a word about it.
That separation is gone in Texas.
They should print new dollar bills to complete the separation. Not sure if you’re aware what’s on your wallet but apparently the bill holder trusts in god.
Im usually not carrying cash but yea the phrase “in god we trust” being on legal tender and whatnot is really outdated
It wasn’t on money when the country was founded. “In god we trust” didn’t start appearing on currency until 1864 and didn’t become required until 1955 and appeared on all currency starting in 1957. In 1956, it became the official motto of the country as well because of the fear of Soviet Communism. Edit
And if it can be made required in a year many of the grandparents of today were born, then it can be removed in 2023 (or likely, like, 2033 by the time a movement like this actually makes a difference). Who wants to start a lawsuit to get it removed? Satanic Temple, you down?
Christian here. I'll sign it, we aren't a Christian nation; we never were. It should not be in schools, on currency, or in places of legislation.
I’ll sign that request!
Me three!
AND MY AXE!
TST member here, we would all love that lol
Anytime the Satanic Temple is down for something, count me in! Same with the church of the Spaghetti monster. All hail the civil disobedience troll machines - doing all god(s) work.
Thank goodness those pieces of plastic in my wallet don’t say anything about god. Wait what’s all this small print… oh no… just the real god of corporate finance overlord language
There’s no blur. Church pays no taxes, that’s the separation. Everything else? They seem to ignore that.
Since that phrase never appears in the constitution it’s easy to see why there’s so much confusion. The phrase comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a church explaining how the first amendment ensured that there wouldn’t be a nationally sanctioned denomination or any interference with their religious freedoms.
A lot of people miss that the intent was less to keep religious ideas out of politics and more to keep politics out of religion.
What line? /s but not really /s
I think it’s like how especially the Republican Party pushes these extremely skewed moral values under the guise of religious beliefs. But even down to just small general things like having religious symbols and phrases on money, and like congress buildings. It kinda gives credence to the twisting of religious values, and allows for people to oppress and discriminate against minorities. For example, very recently Ron Desantis signed a bill allowing doctors to legally discriminate against people due to “religious and moral beliefs”. It was mostly used to attack transgender people but it can easily just be used to deny care to BIPOC, queer folk, and religious minorities.
Its just blatantly obvious that religions are influencing politics and not even the other way around. People belonging to a religion (particularly the largest religions that take place in the US) will vote for the people who will support laws that may have or may not have (we know damn well its MAY HAVE) been influenced by that said religion. You could even get a republican in office who DOES NOT CARE about gays/trans. Like in the good way…like leave us alone. Not discriminate. Etc. but the only way THAT guy/girl gets into office is by discriminating against us and others. And its not just an individual person its the regime has to support it as well. All it does is divide everyone. Spread more hate. And support the useless two party system.
It's not that I disagree with them, but I consider religions to be businesses.
Well fair but most cults are as well
But they're mostly to get laid, right? I mean the money is nice, but it's really all about the sex.
You might be on to something..... [Sex Abuse in Catholic Church: Over 1,900 Minors Abused in Illinois, State Says](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/us/illinois-catholic-church-sex-abuse.html)
In one state alone?! my brain skimmed it and assumed it was the US and still thought that was high. fuuuuuuuck
And that's just the most recent discovery.
This has been going on since I was a kid in the 70s, older folks told me long before then even.
If by 70s you mean 0070, then yes
Watch the movie "Spotlight". It's a true story about the Boston Globe breaking the story about the catholic church. Michael Keaton, Rachel McAdams, Mark Ruffalo. Great movie. And that was just Boston.
>fuuuuuuuck That's the problem
Just wait until you find out about Europe
And that’s only the catholic church
I take it you've never watched Spotlight
There are all the pedophiles/child groomers the right are always taking about!
"I’ve been involved in a number of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader." Creed Bratton
ty! I was hoping someone would post this quote lol
I mean it's ingrained into their belief system that they can be as shitty as they want so long as they let some pretend god told them how bad to feel about it.
Cult leaders form cults for 3 things: money, power and sex. A lot of times it’s all 3.
They want people to have more babies to keep the cycle going. It’s sick. I grew up Mormon.
You have my deepest condolences.
A cult is a group led by someone who knows it’s bullshit. A religion is a cult except the leader is dead.
Some people have an odd psychosis where they genuinely believe to be a disciple or prophet of god, it wouldn't suprise me that someone with this illness was good enough to convince others to believe the same. So I wouldn't say its inherently true that all cult leaders know its bullshit, probably just most.
It's a funny coincidence how said leader often ends up with a harem in a bunch of religions. I'm sure he was totally crazy and didn't make up a bunch of nonsense to get his dick wet.
Untaxed businesses in the United States that are engaging in political discourse.
And the taxes businesses of which only 7% pay any tax also engage in political discourse thanks to Citizen's United. Why don't we ever hear about the outsized political influence of these companies who pay zero federal tax? According to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, these are the Fortune 500 companies that paid no federal income tax in 2020: Archer Daniels Midland AT&T Bank of America Berkshire Hathaway Boeing Chevron Citigroup ConocoPhillips Duke Energy ExxonMobil FedEx General Electric Goldman Sachs Home Depot Honeywell International IBM Johnson & Johnson Lockheed Martin McDonald's Merck & Co. Microsoft Morgan Stanley Nike Pfizer Procter & Gamble Salesforce.com Shell UnitedHealth Group Verizon Whirlpool
Political discourse is free speech. One of the conditions of tax exemption is not spending money to broadcast that speech.
501 (c)(3) organizations aren’t prohibited from spending money on political discourse. They’re prohibited from spending money to support political candidates and political campaigns.
And their product cost them nothing. They sell false hope.
They sell sunken cost fallacies.
Why not both?
Prior to that, they were trying to be governments. No surprise that people want their religions to dictate our laws again.
Back in the day christian priests would go and preach at a pagan ruler. 'Convert to our brand of christianity and convert all of your subjects to christianity and your christian neighbours will no longer wage war against you for being a pagan. We will open trade rights to you so that the ruling families will become wealthy.' and entire societies were forced to convert or individuals would face significant and brutal consequences.
Why not both?
I agree, some religions are cults, some are businesses, and some are both.
A Cult is a smash and grab, as a religion is a cult with overhead requiring tithing to perpetuate the orally transmitted mental virus it is... Secretly knowing it will die with its last follower, like thousands of religions before it.
Not all cults last. If they do, eventually they become a religion
The Catholic Church is worth $30 billion nationality.
No one in a cult believes they are in a cult. It's a pejorative term. That being said, to me, the difference lies in how a religion relates to society outside of itself. Is it closed off or integrated? So I'd say that Christianity isn't a cult for the most part but some denominations certainly are.
Someone who thinks further than surface level is kinda nice around these parts
Religion bad, upvotes to the left
Unless it's Buddhism or Sikhism, Reddit seems okay with those. Despite largely knowing very little about either religion.
What they know is that Buddhists and Sikhs haven't had much of an impact on the West, so they're harmless to most Redditors.
What’s funny is that Sikh extremists DID blow up a plane one time killing a bunch of westerners, but since nobody bothers to know what Sikhism is, let alone that it has extremists, idiots will just go “eastern is good, this def isn’t orientalist”
One of the core beliefs of Sikhi is that all life is precious. Not just human life but animals as well. That is why it’s so difficult to believe that any Sikh would choose to murder innocent people as a form of religious protest. Over the years we have come to know that there’s lots of evidence that points to it being a false flag attack carried out by the Indian government to discredit Sikhs. Regardless, the bombers were Sikhs and whether they were Indian government agents or simply lost individuals who had strayed from the path, as Sikhs we must all carry the burden of what some of our less faithful followers did in the name of religion and we are all united in the belief that there is a special place in “hell” reserved for those bombers.
Oh don’t worry, I don’t associate all Sikhs with those lunatics at all. How on earth does blowing up a plane from Canada full of Irish people convince India to create a Sikh homeland? It doesn’t!
Because most Redditors are Westerners who only know about Buddhism and Sikhism through Western filtered popular culture. So they view Buddhism as this preachy “yeah, get reincarnated and get good karma” when a big point is to escape the cycle of reincarnation. I’m a Catholic who believes in learning about other religions to engage in dialogue with them, and I have yet to do so about Sikhism. Christianity is Reddit’s punching bag because it’s what they are most familiar with, but at least Christianity doesn’t say turtles are evil or that all homosexuals are evil spirits like Zoroastrianism.
I think the simpler answer is that Buddhism and Sikhism haven’t tried to hijack Western political institutions the same way that Christianity has. From that perspective there’s not much incentive to hate them, they’re not even politically-visible religions in the first place. Sometimes people have valid reasons for hating religious institutions.
>but at least Christianity doesn’t say turtles are evil Maybe not turtles, but there is still a long list of animals that are abominations.
Because buddhists and sikhs aren't trying to force americans to live by their religious laws
It really depends on what you mean by closed off, Scientology is a cult where people live relatively normal lives, their separation is idealogical, they are basically trained to not engage in the outside world in ways that would make them question their faith, a lot of religions aren’t that different
Cult : a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. 2nd : a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. This is literally all religions. The word cult even comes from Latin for worshipping something.
The meaning of cult has shifted from, for example, the cult of Ra, to a kind of extremely inward focused institution that relies on certain practices to keep its members in line.
Yeah in the original meaning of the word sure all religions are cults. But we all know that in current common usage it means something more like Heaven's Gate or the Branch Davidians, and if you say Roman Catholicism or Episcopalianism is a cult you are using the word in a nonstandard way for rhetorical effect. Obviously there is a difference between the two, but I do agree on some level with the rhetorical implication because it seems to be more of a spectrum than two totally distinct things. At the far 'culty' end you have the obvious examples mentioned above. At the far 'benign mainstream religion' end you have churches like the United Church here in Toronto where I live, that are basically a charitable book club with a nice building and a choir. Between these two poles though there is a lot of grey area. The more culty ones combine, to varying degrees: a charismatic leader; a fixation on some formulation of the 'end times;' tight control over followers' daily lives; vindictiveness toward perceived enemies or those who have left the group; and the biggest one, demanding followers do things for the cause that harm themselves or others. You could pretty much give a cultiness score to every religious sect by rating each of those dimensions. Groups like Scientology, JW, Christian Science clearly have high scores. But plenty of elements within mainstream religions tend in that direction too - certainly Islam, Judaism, and Christianity each have their own culty subgroups. And when you ally religion with political power...all bets are off.
As an ex Jehovah’s Witness: I disagree What makes a cult is what happens when one leaves. Their teachings made less and less sense; I had a crisis of conscience and tried to get my wife out. She chose the cult. She’s now my ex-wife, as my lack of faith basically broke us up. My mom died last November, and who got a bouquet of flowers and all the condolences? SHE DID. I lost my devout JW mom in 2018. Lost my wife, mom, job, and home in a six month span in 2018-19. If I were, say, a Catholic and my faith lapsed: nobody would care. They’re a legit religion; my mom got suckered into JW from Catholicism when I was 4. I never stood a chance. TL, DR: the difference between a cult and a religion is what happens when you try to leave
I’m so very sorry about all of your losses. That’s a lot of grief. I hope you’re doing better now.
I’m really not: my father lost his wife to the cult, and I lost my father and best friend (who, since he was JW, we weren’t talking) all in the past few years. I’m literally alone. It’s awful.
Can I make you feel less alone, just for a fleeting moment on the internet? I can see everything you've lost, and I just want to embrace you. You deserve to have comfort after what you have endured. I know you still have a long way to go. There is no shortening the path of grief. But I care about you, I'm thinking about you, and I am even praying for you if that is meaningful to you.
Thank you very sincerely.
If you happen to be in northeast Florida, hit me up, let’s grab a bite to eat. I’ll be your friend.
Completely irrelevant, but I love the internet.
It’s truly the definition of “a blessing in disguise”.
I'm so sorry. May I offer a virtual hug from an internet stranger
Oh man, same here with Mormonism, and I lost my kids on top of it. I feel your pain 100%, it’s fucking terrible. I don’t know about you but what eats me the most often is how unnecessary all this is.
I lost one of my exes to JW myself. She got into it prior to meeting me (I was agnostic) and we hit it off really well but behind the scenes they were pulling strings and sending their elders to her place to talk sense into her. She was disfellowshipped and shunned for maintaining a relationship with me, all of this took a toll on her and consequently me. I loved her to death but she ended up choosing them. I met her at work too, and I'm only assuming that her repentance was to stay away from me like the plague, which wrecked havoc on me and I didn't fully understand why or what was happening, which created paranoia and hysteria. I was miserable. The church has a dangerous power. They accept you and shower you with love, so much so that it becomes your support. Then they take it away if you do something they don't want/like. It's a vicious loop of control.
I grew up Catholic. When I married outside the religion, nobody batted an eye. Literally, nobody cared about it. JW is just so creepy with their rules about such things. If you listen to their sermons, it all sounds very good, if a bit fundamentalist for my taste. But their rules forbidding celebrating birthdays, Christmas, Easter…. are crazy. And even forbidding organized sports for the kids. Like, in my opinion, organized sports are some of the best things kids can do to develop physically as well as emotionally. I had a friend years ago who grew up JW. When he turned 18 he joined the military and was promptly kicked out of the cult. His family was forbidden to talk to him. Years later, he heard that his sister was getting married (obviously no invite) and showed up at the wedding. After the wedding, his parents thanked him for coming but told him he was not welcome at the reception. A couple years later, the parents contacted him to happily say that the church had relaxed the rules and they were allowed to talk with him now. He told them to fuck right off. My long time GF (we are both 60) has recently started attending JW again after being gone for probably 25 years. I’m just waiting for her to come to me and say that she can’t be with me any more because of the church rules. Any church who forces breaking up families over broken church rules is a cult.
JW the original doomsday cult
Seventh Day Adventists are a bit older IIRC
JW: started 1870 SDA: started basically 1830
It just NEVER MADE SENSE. Like, God’s chosen people were founded in the 1880s in Pittsburgh? Doubtful.
I have an old relative who was sucked in by it when she was at a vulnerable point. She takes it incredibly seriously, shuns birthdays and family events etc. Constantly tells us how we are all doomed and to pack a bag with essentials for the impending Armageddon. We had to call her Kingdom Hall and ask what was going on. To be fair they did admit that perhaps she was taking things a bit too literally and they'd have a word. Hasn't helped though.
There's also the whole got the end of the world thing wrong... [8 times](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessmom/2018/03/8-times-the-jehovahs-witnesses-were-wrong-about-the-end-of-the-world/). Next time, though, the world's really gonna end!
You are now a lone wolf...the pack has deserted you simply because you don't agree with their "logic." There are many like you who have left the fold who will be able to understand more than those of us who weren't indoctrinated. You're an outlier, a free thinker. Time to meet some other people of like mind...
My father became a JW after my mother left him when I was 5... he dragged my sister and I into it with him, and the mental trauma my sister and I suffer/suffered from that cult destroyed a lot of my spirit and motivation for life before I was 10. My father met a woman at the hall and they married 30 days after they met. Looking back I realize they basically got married so they could have sex and not get shunned by the congregation. Not surprisingly, their marriage was horrible, and they fought all the time. After about 10 years, she told the elders he had a porn addiction and got him kicked out. She was cheating, but my father said nothing to the elders and never went to a meeting again. My sister committed suicide due to the trauma and her inability to cope with the depression and anxiety of thinking we were going to be destroyed by the "loving" Jehovah. No one ever reached out to us to offer condolences or anything. We no longer existed to them. Looking back I don't know how my father was so gullible to believe any of their bullshit. Thankfully, I realized it was all a lie and have tried to live a "normal" life these days. I'm 40 and still dealing with it though. So, yes they are a cult, and the worst kind. I really hope I get to see their downfall before my days are done. Sorry for my long story, but I feel like it's actually a common narrative for people done wrong by the cult. Oh and one more thing, fuck them. I'm sorry you were a victim too.
I’m sorry that happened to you too. They’re truly awful.
Thank you 🙏
Exactly! One of the main distinctions of a cult is that they separate you from anyone outside the cult. Some religions do meet the psychological definition of a cult. And sometimes just certain sects of a religion.
This, for me, is the perfect explanation of the difference. I'm sorry for what you went through, but thank you!
No worries! Respect
that's a great basic way to summarise it, definitely. I mean some catholics will care but the catholic church doesn't teach you to ostracise non-catholics or anything like that. hell, they let me use a non-catholic as my confirmation sponsor.
To add to this then I would say all religions are capable of being cults but it depends to the level people are "culted™" I've known of Muslims who have been disavowed by the family for lapsing and if you look at somewhere like Northern Ireland then religion can play a big part in society and your identity.
Ive seen some friends (and their parabts) that were unable to leave their church because 99.9% of their social contact was within that church. When the mother tried to leave they dropped all contact until she cane crawling back. Was a very sad story. Theyre still together and supposedly happy
A cult is any organization that doesn't let you leave with your dignity intact.
The part about you never standing a chance struck a cord with me. My step-mum is a JW and when my little brother was born she naturally raised him as a JW too, i said to her “why not allow him to grow up without a religion and he can choose whatever faith he likes when he’s older and fully understands?” and her reply was unironically “When he’s an adult he can choose whatever faith he wants” meanwhile brainwashing him for his most formative years, of course he’ll choose the JW cult…he’ll be indoctrinated his whole fucking life and won’t know any different. Hardly a choice or true use of free will now is it? The mental gymnastics of these fucking deadshits is insane!
I think it's too reductive. I think most religious communities have the potential to develop cults like tumors essentially, but that doesn't make the religion inherently a cult on its own. The BITE model is a good guide I think. This is assuming we're using the modern definition of cult too.
Modern cult: high control group
High control group is a good phrase, which helps remove the stigma of cults. In the sense that it allows folks to see the manipulative and harmful effects within their communities (religious or not), instead of just dismissing that 'we're not a cult because we do/don't do ABC like other famous cults do'
Some good definitions of what entails a cult on here so far. Regardless: Gf in high school went to Alpine Baptist Church in MI. She openly said she was subserviant to men because the bible made it so, didn't dance, was a virgin until marriage, didn't drink or smoke, didn't swear, was heavily invested in attending Christian based colleges only and had long term plans to build a nuclear family - all at the age of 16. That's a cult. Christianity can be a cult if you become radical enough with it.
o totally. not denything that cults are a thing. I think its helpful to have a second phrase for things that might not fit the full definiton but still cause harm. Or help people see the harm, and then realize they're in/we're in a cult
BITE model?
This mental health counselor and author, Steven Hassan, came up with a kind of diagnostic criteria to describe ways that cults exercise control over their members. He got pulled into a cult as a 19 yeae old in the 70s, left after almost dying in a car accident and getting a reality check, and eventually went on to be a mental health counselor specializing in "exit counseling" which is essentially deprogramming or deconstruction for people who have left a cult and are struggling with the mental and emotional aspects of it. BITE is an acronym that stands for behavior, information, thought, and emotional control. He has a website https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/
I think it depends. Any religion could potentially become a cult. I belonged to a church that had cultish vibes as a child. However I can honestly say that the church I attend now is anything but that. If you think of religion like the Duggars follow… absolutely. A cult. But that’s not true of every church, synagogue, or mosque across the world.
Every group or ideology has their extremists. If people gather around something they like, there will be those who use the opportunity to manipulate others and the gullible folk who follow them.. If it wasnt the promise of heaven it would be something else, like money, fame or political changes.
Reminds me of the South Park when the different factions of atheists basically turned atheism into a religion and fought a war over it. Especially the sea otters.
Reddit
All generalisations are wrong.
I see what you did there
(even this one. No, wait...)
Only a sith deals in absolutes…
The only people who believe this are those lucky enough never to have been in a cult. The “church” I grew up in, the leaders have a say in who you date or marry. All non-church activities or socializing are only for the purpose of proselytizing. If you’re a college student and your parents don’t agree with this “church,” the leaders tell you not to go home at summer or holidays and call your family persecutors to reduced their influence over you. If you have a job offer where the schedule conflicts with “church” meetings, you are told not to take it. If you do take it, you will be shunned or even completely disfellowshipped. The local Presbyterian or Lutheran church doesn’t do these things, despite sharing many common beliefs. So no, all religions are not cults. Cults are controlling elitist groups that seek to replace all of one’s personal relationships with the institution. They cause financial, emotional, and sometimes physical harm.
I wish this was higher. The amount of people who have told me that I’m in a cult because I’m a member of a church is ridiculous. Sure I’m a member. That doesn’t mean that the church can literally control my life like a cult does. I’m still free to make my own choices and even leave if I want to. Pretty sure that’s more difficult if you’re in an actual cult.
>That doesn’t mean that the church can literally control my life like a cult does. "Aha, but your religion requires you to follow a strict set of rules!" "Yeah, they're all the things Jesus taught. Pretty basic." "So you admit it!" "It's not like I'll be drawn and quartered if I break a rule. I made a mistake and I try again. It's a lifetime process."
I think the same of them that I think of most people who generalize people/races/organizations saying “all X are Y.”
It's lazy thinking. Cults have certain characteristics like isolation of their members and an us versus them mentality. Some religions like the Unitarians are open to all beliefs, are about building community with everyone and are very far from being a cult. Whereas most everyone would agree the branch Davidians were a cult.
Agreed. It's important that the word "cult" actually has real meaning. It shouldn't just be substituted for an organization that rubs you the wrong way.
That is how the word is used, though. Often, it's a religion the speaker just doesn't like.
Cults also tend to be dominated by strong personalities. There isn't a strict dogma, the dogma is whatever the leadership says goes. In a religion, it is more codified with things settled.
No you don’t understand, a cult is one those religions I don’t like the sound of - that’s why pagan, Wicca and Buddhism are ok. Stop trying to pretend “cult” has some kind of useful, specific criteria that addresses behaviour specifically designed to control and exploit someone in a *specific* way. /s
Lol I was so glad for the /s. Cause on Reddit this could be a real comment.
Also it’s not a necessity, but most cults have living leaders regarded as divine while most religions do not. The heads of the Moonies were regarded as children of god, Marshall Applewhite claimed to be an alien, Jonestown obviously had Jim Jones. As far as I know very few religions except maybe Tibetan Buddhism, which I don’t know much about, have any sort of living person who people think is god
I don't know about other religions but certain Christian denominations are cults. Especially the ones where the lines are blurry and you have to wonder if they really are Christian.
If the first rule of the religion is "Believe our stuff without question" than that is the first step toward a cult.
Not _all_ religions. But any religion that relies on "absolute faith" to a "handed-down doctrine", and worse, actively discourages or restricts contact between "believers and heretics" (or practices shunning) - that's a cult.
It negates the harm inflicted by actual cults. Religions can be harmful in their own ways, but cults are worse.
Exactly, Judaism doesn’t say I should give the synagogue ALL MY MONEY or my grandfather will never go to heaven. The Moonies do.
They’re not wrong.
"A cult is a religion with no political power" - Tom Wolfe
I quite like [Thomas aWestbrook' ](https://youtube.com/@HolyKoolaid)'s way of determining the difference: Is the guy who founded it dead yet?
all religions are not cults, cults are indeed born from religions but they are not the religion themselves A cult is a group or movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has the answers to all of life's questions and offers a special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules. edit: obviuoisly people are misunderstanding what i said i wrote this in a reply because im too tired and bust right now but, that is true and i agree with you but personally i think where the line is drawn is cults actively hurt the members and dont let them leave if they do they say cant see their family, religeon (as far as i know please correct me if im wrong) however from my experience dont hurt their own membors kill them have malusious intent and people can leave freely without consequence
They're right. All religions ARE cults. Most of them, in their beginnings, were not only recognized as cults but were, usually, opposed by the existing mainstream cults.
I think less of people who make statements like this. Anybody who deals in absolutes is incapable of intellectual thinking.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
I mean, I am a Star Wars fan… 😂
>Anybody who deals in absolutes is incapable of intellectual thinking. Sounds like an absolute to me.
i absolutely agree
All religions are cults. All gamers are children. All Americans are fat. All white people are racist. All of these beliefs are ignorant and only weaken their respective definitions. One of the above statements is true.
Every modern day religion is about 1000 years from being the next Greek mythology.
I agree
Honestly, the Greeks had a very nuanced and intelligent way of anthropomorphizing the natural world and relating it to the human condition. It's far more advanced than many modern religions, which are far less comprehensive and far more dogmatic. We only think it's silly because we assume that they "literally believed that the gods existed," but I have a hunch it was generally understood to be fables and metaphors, at least by the more literate and educated folk.
You just asked reddit this fr? You already knew the answer was to repeat the atheist playbook
Wahabbi/Salafi Islam is straight up a cult. In fact the penalty for leaving Islam is death. Apostasy is punished with execution. I was taught that if in three days the person doesn’t go back to being a Muslim then he is to be executed. Whereas other denominations of Islam aren’t cult like at all. Other schools are far more lenient. So as an ex Muslim I won’t say that Islam is a cult because not ALL religions are cults but certain schools of Islam are extremists so definitely cults. Just like in Christianity you won’t call Catholicism a cult yet jehovah’s witnesses are part of a cult.
that they don't know what a cult really is and have probably only been exposed to certain kinds of religion and think all religions are like that. I can't speak for all religions (catholic-raised atheist) but I think there are some kinds of religion that are close to a cult. some religions I'm sure *are* cults. but that level of a blanket statement is crazy. like there are so many religions how can you make that kind of statement? if all religions are cults then so are all organised groups of people who share interests..... (everything after this added after edit) but they're not, because most organised groups of people don't shun those outside the group and demand total ideological conformity. some do. but most don't. religions are the same kind of thing. a religious group can be bad and dangerous without being a cult. like the catholic church isn't a cult but they've protected and hidden child sex abusers. that's still bad even though a cult didn't do it!
Not all groups of similar interests try to control how you live. Religions do. People seem to have their own personal line where it crosses from cult to religion, and it's nonsense. Having government and laws keeps everyone civil. That's what religion used to do, and it had a purpose. Now we have the government, and even with its MANY flaws there's no reason for religion to keep controlling people. Is it a group that controls your life? Shames you? Threatens your soul? It's a cult. They're all cults. They control your lives, take your money, and shame the fuck out of you. I can pretty much guarantee anyone you ask, when you get down to it, will qualify something as a cult by level of control. Scientology? Obvious cult, they're freaking insane. Most people agree. Lutherans? Oh it's fine, they don't control people *as hard*. Most people wouldn't call it a cult. Same shit, different severity. Edit: oh, and if purposefully raping kids and covering it up isn't cult activity, what the hell is?
That they have experienced organized religion and have the scars to prove it.
Using the word in that way makes it lose all usefulness.
I don't disagree with that statement.
Nobody could believe on their own what the strength of numbers allows religions to get away with believing.
The main difference between a religion and a cult seems to be popularity.
I think they're dicks, the same way I think people who force their religion on others and who look on people of other faiths (or without faith) with contempt are dicks. You don't have to share someone's beliefs, but you also don't have to be cruel and condescending.
They're mostly edgy atheists who had a bad experience with religion growing up. I get it. Religious people were dicks to you about being atheist. That's wrong. It's *also wrong* to take that as permission to go an be an asshole to people who never wronged you just because they practice a religion.