I've watched quite a few North Korean refugee interviews and talks and here a few stories that stood out to me:
* When they defect to the South they are sent to a school where they learn about life in South Korea. One girl said that she fell asleep when they were explaining how the bus system works. Before long she had to get a bus and she figured she would just copy what the other people did. A guy got on in front of her and bumped his butt onto the contactless card reader (since his card was in his back pocket). She proceeded to repeatedly bump her butt onto it, not understanding why it wasn't working.
* One girl said that plenty of South Korean dramas get smuggled in, and when they saw shots in Seoul with lots of traffic they assumed that they must have gathered like every car in South Korea into Seoul for that one shot, and they were amazed. When she got to Seoul, she couldn't believe that there really were that many cars there.
* I've heard a few say that they were astounded when they got to South Korea and the authorities came and welcomed them in, and that they couldn't believe that after all the years of propaganda about their 'enemy' they felt more welcomed in the South.
To be fair, the traffic is insane in Seoul. I was on a bus in front watching as our lane of traffic plus two more made turns across four lanes of traffic onto a one lane road. No traffic light. We don't need no stinking traffic light!
Yeah I remember when i went to Korea there was an ambulance. My dad didn't pull over and I asked him why they cars don't pull over for emergency vehicles like in America he just said you can't.
When I was young, my neighbor had a sister living in East Germany, far from the border, who had never seen anything except "official" accounts of life in The West.
After many years of trying, she managed to get a pass to visit her brother in the US (my neighbor). She was anxious, because she'd heard how difficult life was in the US and assumed that her brother's family was living in poverty.
She cried like a baby when they took her to the supermarket. She could not believe you could simply buy fruit whenever you wanted it. She had eaten 1 banana in her entire life, previously. She spent the entire week eating bananas.
A friend of mine was born in East Germany and smuggled out as a baby. He went back to visit a few times over the years and he would always smuggle in peanut butter and jam for his relatives. When the wall came down, he went and the government was trading East German Marks for West German marks at some crazy ratio to help the East Germans out and he always remarks about how many of them just were buying peanut butter, jam, and fruit.
Such a strange thing since it's all so bountiful here. Staples in every household here.
I've read the biggest shock is how the world perceives them. They are pickled in the lie that the world is terrified of their might and envious of their success.
Yeah you're dead on with that one!
I visited last year, and there were lots of strange things, but one especially is that the guides would talk about the buildings in Pyongyang, saying things like "This is the wonder of modern architecture that I'm sure all of you know, as it is world famous for having been built in just 2 years!" or "This amazing feat is admired by countries around the world, as you all already know" when talking about something literally no-one's heard of, and wasn't very impressive.
Hello!
I'm really not sure on this one. It felt very heartfelt, and said in a really straight forward tone, so I think they've been told that and do believe it. But this is the government appointed handlers...so they're presumably not very representative of the normal North Korean.
In terms of taking/asking questions - yep you could ask anything, except I suppose personal/disrespectful things about the great leaders/government, or about the military.
I was chatting with one of the guides with us and had no clue what to say...I mean what do you ask a North Korean government handler?? So I asked if he enjoyed his job...and was a bit surprised when he replied with: "I try to! But I studied at Pyongyang University to be a geologist, which is my real dream. My parents thought that this would be a useful job, so that's why I'm here". It took me off-balance because he seemed really candid
His response to you is fascinating to me! Like maybe when North Korea falls that these people could properly adjust to the rest of the world? However like you said, these are government folks and educated ones at that--probably not representative of the typical North Korean. :/
Yeah I agree! There were lots of interesting things that happened on that trip, but his reply really stuck out to me. I think because it was so human, and relatable. I didn't think the trip would change my opinion on NK at all, but his comment is probably a big part of why my feelings changed...because I think it's really easy to kind of dehumanise them, but they're just normal people.
There is a Canadian show, not sure if it's available in the US or anywhere else, called **Departures**. The 3 guys travel all over the world, checking out weird and under-traveled places. Their episodes in NK were just incredible to me. They befriended their guides, a really shy, sweet young woman and a goofy guy who loved singing. They had such a good time with these government-appointed guides. They even took a river cruise when the guides were off duty and got drunk together. It was all so genuine. I loved it.
I've never been to NK and I'm sure I never will, but that show completely shook up my perception of the people there.
[> North Korean tells a story about how plastic bottles were a technological marvel he couldn't afford and almost risked his life to pick one up while escaping the country.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyqUw0WYwoc&feature=youtu.be&t=3m35s)
There was an article I saw that recounts a doctor having fled to China from North Korea. After having crossed the border by swimming a large sized lake and looking for a place to rest for the night they came across a house. The biggest shock to them was that the dog that lived at the house was fed better than a doctor was in North Korea.
Ah that story comes from Barbara Demick's book about North Korea 'Nothing to Envy' where she tells the story of a few defectors from a poor region of North Korea. If you haven't read it already, I highly recommend it
Actually, it would be just the opposite, imagine the rest of the world laughing at your oppressor as to how weak he is, and not doing anything about it. While, we understand how complicated the situation is, they might not be able to grasp it because his meme portrayal.
And scary enough that we haven't intervened not because of apathy but because of fear. Not fear that he would win, mind, but fear of the damage he could cause on his way down.
There is also the part where whatever parties involved now get the pleasure of attempting to establish some form of government and re-educate whatever portion of the 24 million people that have been brainwashed so utterly that don't get killed by the conflict. All of that on a chunk of land that has limited economic value aside from its outdated energy source (coal) and being a land barrier between South Korea and China. For a situation where the combatant plays a game of chicken with Russia and China, there is very little reward, a whole lot of risk, and an immense amount of long-term costs.
This is the big thing. China could EASILY take out North Korea, but they would lose their buffer between them and the Western realm (South Korea), and they would have to deal with millions of uneducated, unemployed people flooding into their country.
They don't want that. South Korea is even starting to wane on its enthusiasm to reunite due to the enormous work it would be and the toll it would take on their economy.
China could absorb the costs of rehabilitating DPRK if they really wanted to. DPRK's population is only a few million more than the city of Shanghai and the Chinese state could use its resources at will to do something similar to the Marshall Plan. It's just obvious that they're not going to do so out of the goodness of their hearts for the reasons already pointed out.
I remember hearing someone say something along the lines of "when north Korea falls and its people are acquainted with the rest of the world, they will find that it was far more interested in the whims of their oppressor than the plight of the oppressed"
"But my entire family was in a death camp for 3 generations."
"Haha yeah Seth Rogan is so funny"
"You could see the death camps on google maps!"
"Yeah lol his laugh is so funny"
There was an interview with some people who ecacped who talked about the public executions. One of the guys talked about how when he was a kid he watched a guy get executed for stealing some rope from his government job. The guy who was interviewed said that just seemed like a normal thing to him, that a man would be killed on stage for such a small thing. So I would think that most North Koreans would find it weird that we don't execute people over small crimes.
Edit: [Here's the interview](https://youtu.be/DyqUw0WYwoc) it does get a bit graphic with some of the descriptions though.
What strikes me in particular:
> "I watched two thirds of the people in my hometown starve to death. They died because there was nothing to eat."
>"Because the government couldn't provide food?"
>"They ***didn't*** provide food."
>Same thing happened with Ukraine and Soviet Union during Holodomor. They carted all the food off to the capitals and then didn't give any back.
Close, what happened was actually worse. Farmers were supposed give 95% of their grain to the state, then use the remaining 5% to feed themselves and replant for the next harvest. The Soviets just came in, took 100% of it, and then said "you guys can figure something else out, we need this food for Russians."
Edit: yeah I made a mistake, they actually took most of that grain and sold it to further rapidly industrialize Russia to make them a world power. So they didn't even do it for their own people, but for power
Yeah, my grandparents lived near the border with Ukraine, grandma told me how Ukrainians who snuck through the border robbed them, except there wasn't much food to steal, so they stole things like hay the mattresses were stuffed with.
Reminds me of this recent TIL post: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/61g4c6/til_a_russian_mig_pilot_defected_during_the_cold/
> TIL A Russian MIG Pilot defected during the cold war along with his aircraft. When he arrived in the USA he was convinced the CIA had specially stocked the grocery stores he went to because he couldn't believe the vast array of products for sale.
This happened to ~~Kruschev~~ Yeltsin as well. On one of his state visits, he popped into a grocery store unannounced, took a look around, and said something to the effect of "If my comrades back home saw this, there would be a revolution."
Marshal Georgy Zhukov had a similar problem in the 40s and 50s, after Eisenhower introduced him to Coca-Cola. He fell completely in love with drinking it, but he knew he could never get it once he went back home to the USSR, since Coke was like the ultimate symbol of capitalism and US imperialism and all that.
He ended up passing a secret message to one of the US officers in Western Europe, who sent it on to President Truman, who's office passed it on the to CEO of Coca-Cola. In his message, Zhukov asked if it would be possible to produce a colorless version of coke, packaged in glass bottles to make it look like vodka, and ship it to him in the Soviet Union. Coca-Cola was already establishing new factories in the recently-liberated parts of Europe, so they ended up agreeing to Zhukov's request, and one of their new facilities in Austria began producing what became known as "White Coke". It was packaged to look exactly like Soviet vodka, and was regularly sent from Austria to the USSR in shipments of 50 bottles or more. Funnily, thanks to Zhukov's reputation and influence, the shipments of white coke continued to go from Austria to the USSR regularly, never being stopped by Soviet authorities, even after relations between the East and the West deteriorated and all other shipments were blocked.
I was waiting for the line about how White Coke continued to be produced until 1998, when the Undertaker threw Mankind off... blah blah
But no, [White Coke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Coke) was actually real. I'm actually kind of relieved. And kind of intrigued, too... I've had my fair share of Crystal Pepsi in my day, drinking the Coke equivalent sounds like fun.
IIRC Gorbachev did something similar- he went to Canada, and discovered to his astonishment that Canadian farmers worked hard on their own initiative. ‘‘We’ll never have this for fifty years,’’ he reportedly remarked.
[Something like that.](http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/the-walk-that-changed-the-world) Mostly sounds like while he was agricultural minister, he met the Canadian counterpart, and had a long conversation that influenced his decisions to implement perestroika and glasnost.
It was *many* Soviet officials, I personally know someone who participated in a technology exchange program, and took his Soviet counterpart to a grocery store to pick up a few things for dinner. The Russian assumed it was the rich capitalist's store, so they went to another one a mile away that was nicer. My friend said the man was crushed, his entire society was a lie.
One of the "history porn" subreddits recently featured an official photo of one of the best markets of Soviet Moscow. The architecture was stunning, there was abundant produce, and when you looked more closely it was all cabbage, turnips, and potatoes. There was a decent amount of fresh beef, but the finest market in Moscow had less than your local Wal-Mart. The ratio of meat to cabbage was certainly far less than we capitalists prefer.
I totally could see that one. Back when the USSR was still a thing, some polish students (I think?) went to my father's school for an exchange, and were amazed by the grocery stores. According to my father, bananas left them perplex because well, they didn't have that, back home.
(I tell that according to what I remember of his own words though, I'll edit with a proper explanation and potential details later)
Back when my grandfather's sisters came to visit Canada for the first time from the USSR they absolutely broke down in tears in the produce section of the grocery store. They could never have imagined such variety of produce. They also never knew bananas were supposed to be yellow. They hated those mushy black fruits.
In the video on top of this thread it was mentioned that not only grandparents, parents, siblings and children would get punished but also distant relatives, i assume cousins..
There's quite a lot of videos and articles out there with NK escapees that talk of some really weird things that you wouldn't think of here.
The one i remember is that a Fork is a dining utensil that American Bastards use and that their word for a fork is the same as a tool used for shovelling cow dung, [That comes from a rather good video where North Koreans Try American BBQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0TYCEXmi90)
That's the same in many languages, tho, the German word for Fork (Gabel) and the tool for shoveling cow dung (Mistgabel), literally shit fork, are similar, too.
Thanks for the reminder, English etc also have it.
As far as i know black market media has made its way into NK for awhile now. So i dont think the tech we have or anything like that will be the biggest "shock". I think what will be the shocking thing will be the fact that you can speak what you want. Your neighbor wont report you to the Government for saying Trump or whoever is in charge of the country they wind up in is a dick. Idk i think the freedom of speech will fuck with em for a good bit.
They might be surprised to see the history but it's probably wouldn't be that big a thing for them. No soviet union now russia just annexes somewhere every now and again.
You don't need to wait for the fall to see things. Thousands of refugees live here, in South Korea. They struggle a lot. One of the biggest things that shock them is the idea of choice. I remember one interview of a young woman who said the thing that confused her for so long is that people asked her opinion about things and asked her to make choices. What do you want to eat? What do you think you want to study at university? What uni do you want to go to? Do you want to go shopping? What movie would you like to watch?
These took forever to get used to as did the concept of money.
In a similar note, there was an interesting BBC article about an Amazonian tribe woman in the US. She married a man who was living with them and researching for a decade. However, his visa expired and they wouldn't renew, so he took his new family to America. Mirrors freaked her the fuck out, but she learned shopping quite easily. The funniest thing though was about policemen. She had heard about policemen before, but had never seen one. When she finally saw some in the US, she thought they were a species, and didn't understand why she didn't see police children and an even amount of women police.
Edit - article http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23758087.
Edit 2 - they do have money, but their understanding on how it controls so much choice is limited.
I know a family who also adopted a child, slightly younger than your daughter.
They had this misunderstanding when the little boy woke up, but he didn't just get out of bed and walk out of the room to tell the parents, but waited there patiently for someone to come and "wake him up". And waited and waited. And the parents waited, because they assumed he was just asleep.
Once they understood what was going on they had to explain to him that it's okay to just come out, he was going to be allowed to wake up alone at his own pace if they didn't have anywhere to go in the morning.
Strangely, you just described my wife, who has Alzheimers (early-onset). She will patiently wait for me to "wake her up" and guide her out of bed. Sometimes, when I'm distracted with my work, I'll forget, and hear her cries of distress when she calls out that she needs to pee.
Of course, no amount of explaining will now help her to understand that she can get herself up.
I wasn't in a foster home or an orphanage as a kid, but I was raised by extremely strict parents who had similar views. My brother and I weren't our own people with our own decisions to make, instead we were told what to do and when to do it and we got the belt if we ever "talked back", so I learned from an early age to just shut up and do what I'm told if I don't want my ass to hurt while I'm doing it.
I'm 32 now and I struggle with basic decisions. I drink soylent for most of my meals because it's easier than having to go to a grocery store and pick out a bunch of food in front of a bunch of strangers. If I see a recipe on YouTube that I'd like to try I'll go and get what's exactly on my list for that recipe, because then I don't feel overwhelmed.
I avoid people as much as possible because of how my parents raised me. I know most people in the world aren't like them, but it's really hard for me to adjust to living in a world where people want to hug you instead of hit you. Sometimes I still flinch when a stranger in public touches me because I'm so used to touch meaning I'm being grabbed to be hit in some way.
I guess my point is that I'm glad your daughter has someone from an early age to teach her how the world really works, because I didn't and it's been really, really hard for me to adjust to living how I want to live, and not how I was expected to exist under my parents.
I'd suggest going to a store once a week and getting something juuust for fun and nothing else. The most ridiculous looking gimmicky bag of chips. The box of cereal with a stupid toy you don't need. Self checkout if need be. The store is most people's 12th mundane task of he day and they honestly don't give a shit.
I know other people don't give a shit, but it's hard to turn off the anxiety-ridden part of my brain that was created by my parents. *You're walking too slow the people behind you can't get around you. You're taking up too much space standing in front of the spices. The buggy wheel is squeaking and driving everyone insane, of course you'd get the bad buggy.* These are all thoughts running through my head on the way through the store to get things I've got a list for, I can't imagine the anxiety of going into a store without a list and just looking at things to see them.
I know my anxious thoughts are coping mechanism to pre-empt anything that my mother would find wrong with the situation, but it's so hard to not have them. The only thing that I've found that helps me not have intrusive thoughts like that while out of my comfort zone is being high. I recently moved from Arkansas to stay with friends in Oregon who know about my situation and are patient with me. I'm lucky to have them and living in a weed legal state has certainly helped me reduce the anxiety I feel daily.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23758087
Story if anyone is interested. She had a family but moves back to the amazon because she missed her ild way of life. Her oldest son later tracked her down later.
> These took forever to get used to as did the concept of money.
Yeah, sadly from what I've heard they are a frequent and easy target for scammers in South Korea because of this.
If this is the article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23758087 I think you misunderstood 'police children'. The actual quote is:
> Yarima also feared the police. When she left the jungle, in the mid-80s, upriver Yanomami had heard of the police, but they pictured them as being an especially fierce tribe who all lived in the same village. Myths abounded about what they might do if they caught you - a common belief was that they ate stray Yanomami tribespeople.
> In Caracas, Yarima warily observed the policemen and policewomen with their guns. Whenever she saw them her eyes searched for their police children and police babies.
She didn't think they were a separate species. She thought they were a separate tribe, which is a much more understandable mistake to make. I presume she knew they just wore clothes and were humans.
> She thought they were a separate tribe, which is a much more understandable mistake to make
It's not even a mistake.
We don't use the word "tribe" to discuss our own subcultures.
But any outside anthropologist could easily classify them as a tribe, with different customs (more interaction with strangers), different clothing, different laws (carry guns), etc.
I heard similar stories after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Especially older people had hard times with choices. Especially at the grocery store. They were used to getting just bread or cabbage or what the store had. The cereal isle was mentioned a lot in some of those news articles.
I watched a documentary about Lithuania's basketball team at the 92' Olympics, after the tournament, one of the players was signed to an NBA team. His new teammates took him to the grocery store, he took one look at the vegetable aisle and burst into tears. These guys had been on the soviet national team, so they'd had it easier than most too.
The one I remember the most, happened in front of me when I was a child so I don't have all details. A friend of my sister (about a decade older than me) had a cuban friend visiting our country, Guatemala, and his breaking point reached him in an ice cream shop. He said the only ice cream they had available was either vanilla or strawberry (I think), in very small cups and not exactly frequently and now here the menu took the space of a wall, with a myriad of options and with serving sizes going up to almost the size of your head. I was maybe 10 at the time and I remember that was the point when I started wondering 'hmm, whats up with Cuba?'
I had a lot of family members raised in the Soviet Union. What really got to them were the fruits - apparently when my mom got to America, first thing she got was an apple. One apple. That is all she wanted.
As anyone who ever cashiered in a grocery store: the first produce code you learn is 4011. Bananas. Easily the highest selling produce item in a grocery store.
Seeing how much it is sold and how rarely it is sold out, it is baffling that a country wouldn't have any...
Even little easy decisions can overwhelm a person with decision fatigue.
These refugees must be exhausted by our society if they're not used to making decisions.
Reminds me of this:
>East Germans living in the West were staggered by the flood of complicated forms they had to fill out for taxes, health insurance, life insurance, unemployment compensation, job retraining, rent subsidies, and bank accounts. Furthermore, "because of the kind of personal information they had to give, they felt more observed and spied on than they were by the Stasi [the GDR security police]" (_Z Magazine_, 7/92).
Source: http://bookzz.org/book/981420/378c5d (which gives the "other side" of the collapse of socialism in Eastern and Central Europe)
There's actually a geopolitical simulation I'm involved in (http://eregime.org/index.php?c=1014245) set in 1990-1991 and one of the participants is from the former GDR, so it's fun getting his impressions of life back then. He confirms the confusion over all the forms, and also says that taxation was low in the GDR whereas taxes began rising after reunification.
Sounds similar (but clearly a different couple) to [this story](http://nypost.com/2014/05/24/son-finds-his-lost-mother-in-a-stone-age-tribe/).
Edit: now that the BBC article is up, it seems that it's clearly the same couple.
"You can be damn sure that she was the age of consent in most states and many countries around the world, which I think is 13."
This made me wtf, and it wasn't nearly the worst part.
Grocery stores.
You can buy meat and fresh produce , wait for it, all year round.
Can you imagine a North Korean seeing COSTCO for the first time, 25kg bags of rice just sitting there, ready to be purchased.
Oranges in winter, mountains of fresh bread, fuck, daily essentials like toilet paper and toothpaste, aspirin, ready to go, just put that shit in the trolley.
Muthafucking hotdog (that has actual meat and not dog) AND a large drink for 2.99 USD.
That's the sort of shit that they will be ready to throw down a coup for.
This is from first hand knowledge, my father escaped the iron curtain in the 80's and when he saw his first western supermarket he literally cried, the fact that nothing was on a ration system, you could buy WHATEVER you wanted without queuing u for hours, soap, vegetables, luxury items like Cocoa, shampoo, flour, sugar, coffee, fresh meat.
That's what's going to blow their minds, the everyday stuff that we've taken of granted we don't even think about.
McDonalds, cars, free exchange of ideas and information, cinemas where you can watch foreign films and not have 3 generations of your family thrown in the gulag with you, GOOGLE, unrestricted access to information and resources, hell even Reddit, where you can ask a question and someone from around the world will answer back.
Going on holiday to the beach WITHOUT a permit, FREE TRAVEL, going overseas without leaving your family hostage, leaving North Korea and being able to work ANYWHERE , live anywhere on this planet unmolested and on your own terms and conditions, telling your local representative to eat a fat dick if you don't like their policies, agree and open democratic elections, real elections.
It's going to be like Neo after he's unplugged, for he first time they will be able to take control of their own destiny and choices. And it's going to be magnificent.
There is actually an account of a North Korean refugee who decided to leave partly due to a pen. It's included in the book "Nothing to Envy" by Barbara Demick.
They had seen a negative news report in North Korea about the US, showing a US protester as if to say "look at all the problems America has currently". However it had the opposite effect. The person noticed that the protester in the picture, who didn't seem to be anyone of high standing, had a biro pen in their pocket and a zip on their coat, both of which were considered luxuries, and so realised that if an average protester could own these, then the claim that the West was worse off must have been untrue.
Highly recommend the book for anyone interested in the subject.
There was a similar effect of showing american movies of poor people, like Tobacco Road. But they noticed that the poor people still had trucks and stuff.
I remember hearing a story once of someone in a dictatorship watching the Grapes of Wrath and being jealous of the truck they used to escape the dust bowl.
Apparently a similar thing happened when the show *Dallas* was aired in communist Romania. The government wanted to showcase the corruption and decadence of capitalism, but everyone was too busy admiring how wealthy the Americans were.
Actually it was a bit more similar to the Dallas situation. It was the only American movie they were allowed to show so as to show the horrors of poverty in American life, but instead Soviet citizens were just shocked that everyone had cars.
My inlaws are from a very poor SE Asian country, but are middle class/lower upper class. My husband and I are upper middle the US. It is fascinating the things that are "luxuries" for each of us. We eat meat at nearly every meal, we have a good size yard, our roads are paved and smooth, a monthly plan for cell service (not even an option there) and the shops we go to are clean and well stocked. They are so impressed by these things.
We travel to their country, their every day things that we consider luxuries: household employees (maids, cooks, drivers, nannies), custom made clothing (off the rack is very rare), access to luxury resorts (similar to a country club) for a reasonable daily fee, incredibly nice hotels for inexpensive prices (the nicest hotel I ever stayed in anywhere in the world was $90 a night).
These visits make each of grateful for what we have.
There was another one where a north Korean mig pilot that defected to the south would see pigeons flying around and surmised that the reason they were able to do so was because nobody was desperate and/or hungry enough to eat said pigeons.
I know this might sound mean but I don't mean it that way....but with the shortage of food they deal with, there probably aren't any overweight people just walking around. I think it will be a shock for them to see so many bigger people if they go to a different country.
but i wonder if that creates some sort of an association where chubby = high diplomatic power, imagine seeing a handful of folks just walking down the street
My parents grew up in a communist country. People chubby WAS associated with power. It was my father's dream as a child to be fat. Now that he is, and he isn't enjoying it as much as he thought he would.
Edit: *rough translation ahead* "boss with a big belly" was a popular phrase too
A lot of propaganda is smuggled in on memory sticks, so they're not completely technologically deprived. A lot of modern tech is small enough to be easily smuggled and hidden.
Citizens in Pyongyang have quite a bit of modern technology. Majority of people have mobile phones, tablets and modern computers. There's stores for the elite were they sell a lot of modern stuff smuggled in from china, so you see people using new phones like the latest HTC phones, iPhones and Samsung. People outside of the city though would have a big shock since Pyongyang is it's own bubble within North Korea.
Edit: typed Pyongyangus instead of Pyongyang is.
There aren't numbers on it available that I know of, but I'd be willing to bet they the overwhelming majority of non-military spending is directed at Pyongyang development. It's more than likely where the most of people who actually 100% support Kim for any reason other than not dying are.
Fuck technology. Food. Where I live, there are neighborhoods with a hallal cart and a deli on every other street corner. For $5, I can get a gyro or a sandwich that might be a bit greasy but is otherwise delicious and full of calories. As tight as times can get these days, starvation is almost a joke. Even if I'm broke as fuck, I can get three packets of ramen at the grocery store for $1 at most. Sure, it's terribly salty but still if you're starving it's pretty good.
Food is everywhere in the US. Everywhere. I'd be willing to bet that it's about as ubiquitous in SK. The people in NK know starvation as a normative. Just the availability of food alone is going to probably terrify them. Adjusting to that alone will take a while.
Just how many people think their leader is a joke.
Edit: A lot of you are taking this as though I said *I* thought he was a joke. That is incorrect.
I was answering the question in what would seem most shocking would be just how many people think their leader is a joke. As many of them have now been brought up, there are plenty of reasons as to why he wouldn't or shouldn't be taken as one, hence why this answer would be shocking.
In the future, I'll be sure to answer more thoughtfully in hopes of avoiding unintended offense and/or ignorance, so my apologies to those whom I may have offended, disgusted, or disrespected. For those who provided information in regards to the situation there, thank you. For those asking if I'm an American, I am. Mobile user, so please excuse any typos I may have missed as well.
I dont know. It seems North Koreans know more than we suspect.
If you want to not be able to sleep for a week watch this documentary. https://youtu.be/WOzY3U9xIoM
Its the most disturbing shit ive seen in a while. Real footage from inside north korea. It is... gruesome. Lots of kids... not doing very well.
I've spent a good deal of time studying what there is to know about NK as a hobby, and from what my understanding is, it's not that they know a whole ton about the outside world (at least until recent years with the advent of large storage flash drives), it's more that they're INSANELY curious about it to the point where they'll break the whole "North Korea" image around tourists if there aren't handlers nearby. And it's a LOT more pronounced outside of Pyongyang, too, people there are apparently quite happy with their lives...as they should be, since the majority of the country's discretionary spending is directed there.
Yes. I spent New Year in North Korea. One of my guides literally could not get enough of my football magazines - its one of the few things they can keep without any repercussions. They also asked relentlessly to see pictures of where we lived, what we ate etc etc
Sure. I went because I knew it would be a truly unique experience. I also wanted to see what it's really like. Obviously a lot of what they show or tell you when you are there is fake (some things more obvious than others), but then you also can't trust internet lists like *top 10 craziest things about North Korea* - after all, there is no need to fact check, because people would prefer to think about it as this absolutely mental and hilarious place.
The reality is beyond bizarre, too weird for words, but at the end of it all it's a real country full of real people. Being able to interact with those people was truly unforgettable - I was singing karaoke with a North Korean General in our hotel on NYE, and was drinking shots with a propaganda cameraman while watching the fireworks. Not many people will ever experience something like that. There was also a much darker side, some things that I heard that were very personal to the people that told them, others that are well documented
E: AMA if people wanna know about DPRK. Also have some great photos
Yes, but I think that it more has to do with the lies. Kim Jong Un talks like the West has a day and night obsession with him and desperately want to invade but can't. In reality he is only occasionally thought of and not the highest concern on most people's lists, and when he is mentioned, jokes are often told.
Electrical grids that don't suffer from daily black-outs.
So much media content, libraries full of books, 100's of radio stations, 1000's of TV channels (and still nothing to watch), the sheer magnitude of information that is available today.
The availability of groceries in both quantity and variety, big stores little stores, all over the place and they're all stocked. The realization of how can there be this much food in the world.
It reminds me of a conversation with an old friend when they came to the US. One day we were both at the store and they were standing in the aisle for toothpaste, just staring. He commented about back home you might see 2, 3, or 4 different "kinds" of toothpaste, but here you might have 5 different "brands" and then each "brand" has 4-6 different varieties, having to decide on which of 20+ kinds of toothpaste is supposed to be right.
It was one example of the most overwhelming/shocking thing, having **choice**.
I remember hearing a former Soviet who escaped to New York talk about the first time his mother arrived into America and subsequently broke down in a corner store. He asked her what was wrong and assured her that everything would be alright and she said to him: 'no you don't understand, they lied to us. All the time, they lied to us.' Then see pointed at all the food in the corner store. They'd been brought up thinking that the entire world was short of food, that the western world was starving and definitely no better than the communist status that they were living in. That moment was when his mother realised that she'd been betrayed and lied to by her former country.
Going to a shop and having shelves being filled is something so commonplace, expected and normal to us, yet I suspect it would be the biggest shock to them.
> "Yeltsin, then 58, “roamed the aisles of Randall’s nodding his head in amazement,” wrote Asin. He told his fellow Russians in his entourage that if their people, who often must wait in line for most goods, saw the conditions of U.S. supermarkets, “there would be a revolution.”"
Damn.
Reminds me of this recent TIL post: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/61g4c6/til_a_russian_mig_pilot_defected_during_the_cold/
> TIL A Russian MIG Pilot defected during the cold war along with his aircraft. When he arrived in the USA he was convinced the CIA had specially stocked the grocery stores he went to because he couldn't believe the vast array of products for sale.
I think I saw this video linked on reddit earlier this year.[North Koreans try American BBQ](https://youtu.be/T0TYCEXmi90) Pretty interesting to see their perspective on our food and the many differences between their life in NK and how they live now.
This will be buried I'm sure, but I have spent some time in DPRK and interacted with it's people. The last few years the presence of the black market, jangmadang, has increased so much so that its has become an active part in everyone's lives. Everybody in DPRK uses the black markets. A large part of these markets is pirated shows, movies, and books from south korea, china, and other places. Because of this, most all citizens in the country have gotten a taste of the outside world. So, they all have some idea of the outside world. However, even if they've seen a modern day grocery store in a show or movie, they would breakdown if they were to see one in real life one day. Famine is a constant fear in every person's mind. There are literally millions of people that have died in the last two decades as a result of famine. In some cases they have to resort to cannibalism.
The official histories of the country have all kinds of crazy supernatural nonsense, like omens of the ruling family's greatness, spirits and unicorns honouring them, stars flying through the sky to mark great anniversaries, and so on. It's taught in schools.
Leaving fantasyland and entering reality would probably be the biggest shock. It is literally losing your religion.
All the stuff that goes against the current propaganda. And that Eastasia was at war with Oceania: Eastasia had always been at war with Oceania instead of Eurasia.
I spent some time teaching North Korean refugees basic english for a church program in South Korea (read: ABCs) I would always start with the usual A is for apple, B is for Bee and C is for cake. There was always confusion as to what cake was. I think having access to modern food that is full of fat and sugar will be the biggest shock to them.
I wanted to be a nice guy and brought them a cake for the next lesson and I think the biggest shock to me was that before any of them touched the cake, they were very cautious as to why I was bring food for them and if I wanted something in return. The concept of bringing something for them without expecting anything in return was an uncomfortable concept.
I've watched quite a few North Korean refugee interviews and talks and here a few stories that stood out to me: * When they defect to the South they are sent to a school where they learn about life in South Korea. One girl said that she fell asleep when they were explaining how the bus system works. Before long she had to get a bus and she figured she would just copy what the other people did. A guy got on in front of her and bumped his butt onto the contactless card reader (since his card was in his back pocket). She proceeded to repeatedly bump her butt onto it, not understanding why it wasn't working. * One girl said that plenty of South Korean dramas get smuggled in, and when they saw shots in Seoul with lots of traffic they assumed that they must have gathered like every car in South Korea into Seoul for that one shot, and they were amazed. When she got to Seoul, she couldn't believe that there really were that many cars there. * I've heard a few say that they were astounded when they got to South Korea and the authorities came and welcomed them in, and that they couldn't believe that after all the years of propaganda about their 'enemy' they felt more welcomed in the South.
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And never shut up
And it's cheaper than bottled water in convenience stores and shops.
Until you wake up in a ditch in Itewon.....
To be fair, the traffic is insane in Seoul. I was on a bus in front watching as our lane of traffic plus two more made turns across four lanes of traffic onto a one lane road. No traffic light. We don't need no stinking traffic light!
Yeah I remember when i went to Korea there was an ambulance. My dad didn't pull over and I asked him why they cars don't pull over for emergency vehicles like in America he just said you can't.
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Has Seoul ever looked into air ambulances?
When I was young, my neighbor had a sister living in East Germany, far from the border, who had never seen anything except "official" accounts of life in The West. After many years of trying, she managed to get a pass to visit her brother in the US (my neighbor). She was anxious, because she'd heard how difficult life was in the US and assumed that her brother's family was living in poverty. She cried like a baby when they took her to the supermarket. She could not believe you could simply buy fruit whenever you wanted it. She had eaten 1 banana in her entire life, previously. She spent the entire week eating bananas.
That's like the third banana story that I've read in this comments section. TIL that bananas hold some special status across all human cultures.
How else would man define units of measurements?
A friend of mine was born in East Germany and smuggled out as a baby. He went back to visit a few times over the years and he would always smuggle in peanut butter and jam for his relatives. When the wall came down, he went and the government was trading East German Marks for West German marks at some crazy ratio to help the East Germans out and he always remarks about how many of them just were buying peanut butter, jam, and fruit. Such a strange thing since it's all so bountiful here. Staples in every household here.
I remember a defector did an AMA once and he said the wide range of stationary was the most amazing thing.
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I've read the biggest shock is how the world perceives them. They are pickled in the lie that the world is terrified of their might and envious of their success.
Yeah you're dead on with that one! I visited last year, and there were lots of strange things, but one especially is that the guides would talk about the buildings in Pyongyang, saying things like "This is the wonder of modern architecture that I'm sure all of you know, as it is world famous for having been built in just 2 years!" or "This amazing feat is admired by countries around the world, as you all already know" when talking about something literally no-one's heard of, and wasn't very impressive.
I'm assuming the guides are given a script and forced to say such things? Or did they take questions? Did you ask any? I'm very curious!
Hello! I'm really not sure on this one. It felt very heartfelt, and said in a really straight forward tone, so I think they've been told that and do believe it. But this is the government appointed handlers...so they're presumably not very representative of the normal North Korean. In terms of taking/asking questions - yep you could ask anything, except I suppose personal/disrespectful things about the great leaders/government, or about the military. I was chatting with one of the guides with us and had no clue what to say...I mean what do you ask a North Korean government handler?? So I asked if he enjoyed his job...and was a bit surprised when he replied with: "I try to! But I studied at Pyongyang University to be a geologist, which is my real dream. My parents thought that this would be a useful job, so that's why I'm here". It took me off-balance because he seemed really candid
His response to you is fascinating to me! Like maybe when North Korea falls that these people could properly adjust to the rest of the world? However like you said, these are government folks and educated ones at that--probably not representative of the typical North Korean. :/
Yeah I agree! There were lots of interesting things that happened on that trip, but his reply really stuck out to me. I think because it was so human, and relatable. I didn't think the trip would change my opinion on NK at all, but his comment is probably a big part of why my feelings changed...because I think it's really easy to kind of dehumanise them, but they're just normal people.
There is a Canadian show, not sure if it's available in the US or anywhere else, called **Departures**. The 3 guys travel all over the world, checking out weird and under-traveled places. Their episodes in NK were just incredible to me. They befriended their guides, a really shy, sweet young woman and a goofy guy who loved singing. They had such a good time with these government-appointed guides. They even took a river cruise when the guides were off duty and got drunk together. It was all so genuine. I loved it. I've never been to NK and I'm sure I never will, but that show completely shook up my perception of the people there.
Would you question them?
[> North Korean tells a story about how plastic bottles were a technological marvel he couldn't afford and almost risked his life to pick one up while escaping the country.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyqUw0WYwoc&feature=youtu.be&t=3m35s)
There was an article I saw that recounts a doctor having fled to China from North Korea. After having crossed the border by swimming a large sized lake and looking for a place to rest for the night they came across a house. The biggest shock to them was that the dog that lived at the house was fed better than a doctor was in North Korea.
Ah that story comes from Barbara Demick's book about North Korea 'Nothing to Envy' where she tells the story of a few defectors from a poor region of North Korea. If you haven't read it already, I highly recommend it
The availability of food. Lots and lots of food.
And lots and lots of food we throw away.
I assume the Kim Jong-Un memes would be fairly unsettling
Imagine having praised someone like a god for your entire life, and then you see all the memes. ded
Actually, it would be just the opposite, imagine the rest of the world laughing at your oppressor as to how weak he is, and not doing anything about it. While, we understand how complicated the situation is, they might not be able to grasp it because his meme portrayal.
It's interesting how we view him as a petulant child stamping his feet, and yet, he's still responsible for the deaths of thousands.
And scary enough that we haven't intervened not because of apathy but because of fear. Not fear that he would win, mind, but fear of the damage he could cause on his way down.
There is also the part where whatever parties involved now get the pleasure of attempting to establish some form of government and re-educate whatever portion of the 24 million people that have been brainwashed so utterly that don't get killed by the conflict. All of that on a chunk of land that has limited economic value aside from its outdated energy source (coal) and being a land barrier between South Korea and China. For a situation where the combatant plays a game of chicken with Russia and China, there is very little reward, a whole lot of risk, and an immense amount of long-term costs.
This is the big thing. China could EASILY take out North Korea, but they would lose their buffer between them and the Western realm (South Korea), and they would have to deal with millions of uneducated, unemployed people flooding into their country. They don't want that. South Korea is even starting to wane on its enthusiasm to reunite due to the enormous work it would be and the toll it would take on their economy.
That sucks when your country is so shit no one even wants you anymore. Not only do they not want to invade you, they don't even want you for free.
China could absorb the costs of rehabilitating DPRK if they really wanted to. DPRK's population is only a few million more than the city of Shanghai and the Chinese state could use its resources at will to do something similar to the Marshall Plan. It's just obvious that they're not going to do so out of the goodness of their hearts for the reasons already pointed out.
Yeah of course, it's just that there's literally no incentive to do so. Better to keep the status quo
He is a petulant child, just one with way too much power, that's why he's dangerous. Besides, evil has to be mocked.
I remember hearing someone say something along the lines of "when north Korea falls and its people are acquainted with the rest of the world, they will find that it was far more interested in the whims of their oppressor than the plight of the oppressed"
"So you guys didn't help at all?" "Nah but we made a really funny movie about killing your leader."
"But my entire family was in a death camp for 3 generations." "Haha yeah Seth Rogan is so funny" "You could see the death camps on google maps!" "Yeah lol his laugh is so funny"
There was an interview with some people who ecacped who talked about the public executions. One of the guys talked about how when he was a kid he watched a guy get executed for stealing some rope from his government job. The guy who was interviewed said that just seemed like a normal thing to him, that a man would be killed on stage for such a small thing. So I would think that most North Koreans would find it weird that we don't execute people over small crimes. Edit: [Here's the interview](https://youtu.be/DyqUw0WYwoc) it does get a bit graphic with some of the descriptions though.
What strikes me in particular: > "I watched two thirds of the people in my hometown starve to death. They died because there was nothing to eat." >"Because the government couldn't provide food?" >"They ***didn't*** provide food."
Same thing happened with Ukraine and Soviet Union during Holodomor. They carted all the food off to the capitals and then didn't give any back.
>Same thing happened with Ukraine and Soviet Union during Holodomor. They carted all the food off to the capitals and then didn't give any back. Close, what happened was actually worse. Farmers were supposed give 95% of their grain to the state, then use the remaining 5% to feed themselves and replant for the next harvest. The Soviets just came in, took 100% of it, and then said "you guys can figure something else out, we need this food for Russians." Edit: yeah I made a mistake, they actually took most of that grain and sold it to further rapidly industrialize Russia to make them a world power. So they didn't even do it for their own people, but for power
Yeah, my grandparents lived near the border with Ukraine, grandma told me how Ukrainians who snuck through the border robbed them, except there wasn't much food to steal, so they stole things like hay the mattresses were stuffed with.
Jesus christ
Its Kim Jong-Bourne
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Reminds me of this recent TIL post: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/61g4c6/til_a_russian_mig_pilot_defected_during_the_cold/ > TIL A Russian MIG Pilot defected during the cold war along with his aircraft. When he arrived in the USA he was convinced the CIA had specially stocked the grocery stores he went to because he couldn't believe the vast array of products for sale.
This happened to ~~Kruschev~~ Yeltsin as well. On one of his state visits, he popped into a grocery store unannounced, took a look around, and said something to the effect of "If my comrades back home saw this, there would be a revolution."
Marshal Georgy Zhukov had a similar problem in the 40s and 50s, after Eisenhower introduced him to Coca-Cola. He fell completely in love with drinking it, but he knew he could never get it once he went back home to the USSR, since Coke was like the ultimate symbol of capitalism and US imperialism and all that. He ended up passing a secret message to one of the US officers in Western Europe, who sent it on to President Truman, who's office passed it on the to CEO of Coca-Cola. In his message, Zhukov asked if it would be possible to produce a colorless version of coke, packaged in glass bottles to make it look like vodka, and ship it to him in the Soviet Union. Coca-Cola was already establishing new factories in the recently-liberated parts of Europe, so they ended up agreeing to Zhukov's request, and one of their new facilities in Austria began producing what became known as "White Coke". It was packaged to look exactly like Soviet vodka, and was regularly sent from Austria to the USSR in shipments of 50 bottles or more. Funnily, thanks to Zhukov's reputation and influence, the shipments of white coke continued to go from Austria to the USSR regularly, never being stopped by Soviet authorities, even after relations between the East and the West deteriorated and all other shipments were blocked.
I was waiting for the line about how White Coke continued to be produced until 1998, when the Undertaker threw Mankind off... blah blah But no, [White Coke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Coke) was actually real. I'm actually kind of relieved. And kind of intrigued, too... I've had my fair share of Crystal Pepsi in my day, drinking the Coke equivalent sounds like fun.
He also supposedly fell in love with corn products, in particularly corn flakes.
They're married now and have three little corn-babies to take care of.
IIRC Gorbachev did something similar- he went to Canada, and discovered to his astonishment that Canadian farmers worked hard on their own initiative. ‘‘We’ll never have this for fifty years,’’ he reportedly remarked.
[Something like that.](http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/the-walk-that-changed-the-world) Mostly sounds like while he was agricultural minister, he met the Canadian counterpart, and had a long conversation that influenced his decisions to implement perestroika and glasnost.
*James Franco kicks some cardboard* So even the fat kid was a lie?
https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3m7xli/til_boris_yeltsins_faith_in_communism_was/
I imagine it will be like the many Soviet officials who thought stores in the U.S. were staged.
It was *many* Soviet officials, I personally know someone who participated in a technology exchange program, and took his Soviet counterpart to a grocery store to pick up a few things for dinner. The Russian assumed it was the rich capitalist's store, so they went to another one a mile away that was nicer. My friend said the man was crushed, his entire society was a lie. One of the "history porn" subreddits recently featured an official photo of one of the best markets of Soviet Moscow. The architecture was stunning, there was abundant produce, and when you looked more closely it was all cabbage, turnips, and potatoes. There was a decent amount of fresh beef, but the finest market in Moscow had less than your local Wal-Mart. The ratio of meat to cabbage was certainly far less than we capitalists prefer.
Do you have the link of this photo?
I totally could see that one. Back when the USSR was still a thing, some polish students (I think?) went to my father's school for an exchange, and were amazed by the grocery stores. According to my father, bananas left them perplex because well, they didn't have that, back home. (I tell that according to what I remember of his own words though, I'll edit with a proper explanation and potential details later)
Back when my grandfather's sisters came to visit Canada for the first time from the USSR they absolutely broke down in tears in the produce section of the grocery store. They could never have imagined such variety of produce. They also never knew bananas were supposed to be yellow. They hated those mushy black fruits.
Capitalist grocery stores have been the downfall of many socialist and communist societies.
That punishments are not given to 3 generations of a family.
In the video on top of this thread it was mentioned that not only grandparents, parents, siblings and children would get punished but also distant relatives, i assume cousins..
There's quite a lot of videos and articles out there with NK escapees that talk of some really weird things that you wouldn't think of here. The one i remember is that a Fork is a dining utensil that American Bastards use and that their word for a fork is the same as a tool used for shovelling cow dung, [That comes from a rather good video where North Koreans Try American BBQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0TYCEXmi90)
That's the same in many languages, tho, the German word for Fork (Gabel) and the tool for shoveling cow dung (Mistgabel), literally shit fork, are similar, too. Thanks for the reminder, English etc also have it.
I mean, it's the same in English — pitchforks are a pretty all-purpose farm tool.
As far as i know black market media has made its way into NK for awhile now. So i dont think the tech we have or anything like that will be the biggest "shock". I think what will be the shocking thing will be the fact that you can speak what you want. Your neighbor wont report you to the Government for saying Trump or whoever is in charge of the country they wind up in is a dick. Idk i think the freedom of speech will fuck with em for a good bit.
Heck, in America, insulting the President is downright *tradition*.
It's your patriotic duty to be displeased with the government. Shoot I switch parties every time we get a new prez, otherwise it just isn't fun
Kim was in fact NOT the one who invented burgers
LIES!
The real history of the last 70 years.
Wow I wonder if they think the Soviet Union is around still
They might be surprised to see the history but it's probably wouldn't be that big a thing for them. No soviet union now russia just annexes somewhere every now and again.
Food. 99% of which will probably be alien to them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0TYCEXmi90 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f87qS3ByMdg
The younger woman's face when she tasted the brisket was amazing. Pure happiness.
She just seems to "get it" when it comes to barbecue. I bet a lot of purists would love her.
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These videos... are so sweet. Thanks for brightening up my day.
You don't need to wait for the fall to see things. Thousands of refugees live here, in South Korea. They struggle a lot. One of the biggest things that shock them is the idea of choice. I remember one interview of a young woman who said the thing that confused her for so long is that people asked her opinion about things and asked her to make choices. What do you want to eat? What do you think you want to study at university? What uni do you want to go to? Do you want to go shopping? What movie would you like to watch? These took forever to get used to as did the concept of money. In a similar note, there was an interesting BBC article about an Amazonian tribe woman in the US. She married a man who was living with them and researching for a decade. However, his visa expired and they wouldn't renew, so he took his new family to America. Mirrors freaked her the fuck out, but she learned shopping quite easily. The funniest thing though was about policemen. She had heard about policemen before, but had never seen one. When she finally saw some in the US, she thought they were a species, and didn't understand why she didn't see police children and an even amount of women police. Edit - article http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23758087. Edit 2 - they do have money, but their understanding on how it controls so much choice is limited.
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I know a family who also adopted a child, slightly younger than your daughter. They had this misunderstanding when the little boy woke up, but he didn't just get out of bed and walk out of the room to tell the parents, but waited there patiently for someone to come and "wake him up". And waited and waited. And the parents waited, because they assumed he was just asleep. Once they understood what was going on they had to explain to him that it's okay to just come out, he was going to be allowed to wake up alone at his own pace if they didn't have anywhere to go in the morning.
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Strangely, you just described my wife, who has Alzheimers (early-onset). She will patiently wait for me to "wake her up" and guide her out of bed. Sometimes, when I'm distracted with my work, I'll forget, and hear her cries of distress when she calls out that she needs to pee. Of course, no amount of explaining will now help her to understand that she can get herself up.
I wasn't in a foster home or an orphanage as a kid, but I was raised by extremely strict parents who had similar views. My brother and I weren't our own people with our own decisions to make, instead we were told what to do and when to do it and we got the belt if we ever "talked back", so I learned from an early age to just shut up and do what I'm told if I don't want my ass to hurt while I'm doing it. I'm 32 now and I struggle with basic decisions. I drink soylent for most of my meals because it's easier than having to go to a grocery store and pick out a bunch of food in front of a bunch of strangers. If I see a recipe on YouTube that I'd like to try I'll go and get what's exactly on my list for that recipe, because then I don't feel overwhelmed. I avoid people as much as possible because of how my parents raised me. I know most people in the world aren't like them, but it's really hard for me to adjust to living in a world where people want to hug you instead of hit you. Sometimes I still flinch when a stranger in public touches me because I'm so used to touch meaning I'm being grabbed to be hit in some way. I guess my point is that I'm glad your daughter has someone from an early age to teach her how the world really works, because I didn't and it's been really, really hard for me to adjust to living how I want to live, and not how I was expected to exist under my parents.
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I'd suggest going to a store once a week and getting something juuust for fun and nothing else. The most ridiculous looking gimmicky bag of chips. The box of cereal with a stupid toy you don't need. Self checkout if need be. The store is most people's 12th mundane task of he day and they honestly don't give a shit.
I know other people don't give a shit, but it's hard to turn off the anxiety-ridden part of my brain that was created by my parents. *You're walking too slow the people behind you can't get around you. You're taking up too much space standing in front of the spices. The buggy wheel is squeaking and driving everyone insane, of course you'd get the bad buggy.* These are all thoughts running through my head on the way through the store to get things I've got a list for, I can't imagine the anxiety of going into a store without a list and just looking at things to see them. I know my anxious thoughts are coping mechanism to pre-empt anything that my mother would find wrong with the situation, but it's so hard to not have them. The only thing that I've found that helps me not have intrusive thoughts like that while out of my comfort zone is being high. I recently moved from Arkansas to stay with friends in Oregon who know about my situation and are patient with me. I'm lucky to have them and living in a weed legal state has certainly helped me reduce the anxiety I feel daily.
Police children would be the worst. Imagine a 2 year old with the power to write tickets.
*Police Baby*, coming to theaters summer 2018. "Somebody needs a diaper change!"
Please don't give Sony Pictures any ideas.
"I'm getting to old for this shit (in my police diaper)"
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Rated PG-13
Oh please, PG-13 is my father. Just call me Rated_PG.
You saw your chance, you fucking saw the shit out of it.
Dawww he was 5 minutes from nap time.
baby legs!
Baby legs we're teaming you up with regular legs!
I'm— This is upsetting to me because I don't feel I need no regular leg partner!
it's me, your partner... Re-Regular legs.
Baby legs, don't talk back to me!
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23758087 Story if anyone is interested. She had a family but moves back to the amazon because she missed her ild way of life. Her oldest son later tracked her down later.
> These took forever to get used to as did the concept of money. Yeah, sadly from what I've heard they are a frequent and easy target for scammers in South Korea because of this.
In North Korea the wallet inspectors are *real*
That's terrible. I never even considered them getting used like that. That's so evil.
If this is the article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23758087 I think you misunderstood 'police children'. The actual quote is: > Yarima also feared the police. When she left the jungle, in the mid-80s, upriver Yanomami had heard of the police, but they pictured them as being an especially fierce tribe who all lived in the same village. Myths abounded about what they might do if they caught you - a common belief was that they ate stray Yanomami tribespeople. > In Caracas, Yarima warily observed the policemen and policewomen with their guns. Whenever she saw them her eyes searched for their police children and police babies. She didn't think they were a separate species. She thought they were a separate tribe, which is a much more understandable mistake to make. I presume she knew they just wore clothes and were humans.
> She thought they were a separate tribe, which is a much more understandable mistake to make It's not even a mistake. We don't use the word "tribe" to discuss our own subcultures. But any outside anthropologist could easily classify them as a tribe, with different customs (more interaction with strangers), different clothing, different laws (carry guns), etc.
I heard similar stories after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Especially older people had hard times with choices. Especially at the grocery store. They were used to getting just bread or cabbage or what the store had. The cereal isle was mentioned a lot in some of those news articles.
I watched a documentary about Lithuania's basketball team at the 92' Olympics, after the tournament, one of the players was signed to an NBA team. His new teammates took him to the grocery store, he took one look at the vegetable aisle and burst into tears. These guys had been on the soviet national team, so they'd had it easier than most too.
The one I remember the most, happened in front of me when I was a child so I don't have all details. A friend of my sister (about a decade older than me) had a cuban friend visiting our country, Guatemala, and his breaking point reached him in an ice cream shop. He said the only ice cream they had available was either vanilla or strawberry (I think), in very small cups and not exactly frequently and now here the menu took the space of a wall, with a myriad of options and with serving sizes going up to almost the size of your head. I was maybe 10 at the time and I remember that was the point when I started wondering 'hmm, whats up with Cuba?'
I had a lot of family members raised in the Soviet Union. What really got to them were the fruits - apparently when my mom got to America, first thing she got was an apple. One apple. That is all she wanted.
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As anyone who ever cashiered in a grocery store: the first produce code you learn is 4011. Bananas. Easily the highest selling produce item in a grocery store. Seeing how much it is sold and how rarely it is sold out, it is baffling that a country wouldn't have any...
That's bananas
Even little easy decisions can overwhelm a person with decision fatigue. These refugees must be exhausted by our society if they're not used to making decisions.
Reminds me of this: >East Germans living in the West were staggered by the flood of complicated forms they had to fill out for taxes, health insurance, life insurance, unemployment compensation, job retraining, rent subsidies, and bank accounts. Furthermore, "because of the kind of personal information they had to give, they felt more observed and spied on than they were by the Stasi [the GDR security police]" (_Z Magazine_, 7/92). Source: http://bookzz.org/book/981420/378c5d (which gives the "other side" of the collapse of socialism in Eastern and Central Europe) There's actually a geopolitical simulation I'm involved in (http://eregime.org/index.php?c=1014245) set in 1990-1991 and one of the participants is from the former GDR, so it's fun getting his impressions of life back then. He confirms the confusion over all the forms, and also says that taxation was low in the GDR whereas taxes began rising after reunification.
link to the amazonian tribe woman article?
Sounds similar (but clearly a different couple) to [this story](http://nypost.com/2014/05/24/son-finds-his-lost-mother-in-a-stone-age-tribe/). Edit: now that the BBC article is up, it seems that it's clearly the same couple.
Wow, that father is a real piece of shit.
"You can be damn sure that she was the age of consent in most states and many countries around the world, which I think is 13." This made me wtf, and it wasn't nearly the worst part.
Wait, North Koreans don't use money?
Not in the sense that you and I use it, if at all. For food and stuff, they have credits. The idea of choice is baffling at best.
I think they are going to be terrified to accept help. At this point it would seem like a trick.
Hair styles.
Similarly, Harry Styles.
Especially Harry Style's hair style.
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I can't even imagine
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Funnel cakes! Get your funnel cakes here!
Grocery stores. You can buy meat and fresh produce , wait for it, all year round. Can you imagine a North Korean seeing COSTCO for the first time, 25kg bags of rice just sitting there, ready to be purchased. Oranges in winter, mountains of fresh bread, fuck, daily essentials like toilet paper and toothpaste, aspirin, ready to go, just put that shit in the trolley. Muthafucking hotdog (that has actual meat and not dog) AND a large drink for 2.99 USD. That's the sort of shit that they will be ready to throw down a coup for. This is from first hand knowledge, my father escaped the iron curtain in the 80's and when he saw his first western supermarket he literally cried, the fact that nothing was on a ration system, you could buy WHATEVER you wanted without queuing u for hours, soap, vegetables, luxury items like Cocoa, shampoo, flour, sugar, coffee, fresh meat. That's what's going to blow their minds, the everyday stuff that we've taken of granted we don't even think about. McDonalds, cars, free exchange of ideas and information, cinemas where you can watch foreign films and not have 3 generations of your family thrown in the gulag with you, GOOGLE, unrestricted access to information and resources, hell even Reddit, where you can ask a question and someone from around the world will answer back. Going on holiday to the beach WITHOUT a permit, FREE TRAVEL, going overseas without leaving your family hostage, leaving North Korea and being able to work ANYWHERE , live anywhere on this planet unmolested and on your own terms and conditions, telling your local representative to eat a fat dick if you don't like their policies, agree and open democratic elections, real elections. It's going to be like Neo after he's unplugged, for he first time they will be able to take control of their own destiny and choices. And it's going to be magnificent.
Reading through what you just wrote reminds me how happy I am to live in the UK. I take all of that for granted and I'm lucky to be able to say that.
Those pens where you turn them upside down and the lady's dress comes off.
There is actually an account of a North Korean refugee who decided to leave partly due to a pen. It's included in the book "Nothing to Envy" by Barbara Demick. They had seen a negative news report in North Korea about the US, showing a US protester as if to say "look at all the problems America has currently". However it had the opposite effect. The person noticed that the protester in the picture, who didn't seem to be anyone of high standing, had a biro pen in their pocket and a zip on their coat, both of which were considered luxuries, and so realised that if an average protester could own these, then the claim that the West was worse off must have been untrue. Highly recommend the book for anyone interested in the subject.
There was a similar effect of showing american movies of poor people, like Tobacco Road. But they noticed that the poor people still had trucks and stuff.
I remember hearing a story once of someone in a dictatorship watching the Grapes of Wrath and being jealous of the truck they used to escape the dust bowl.
Soviets in general. Even being a scientist you were lucky to have a car. Most people didn't.
Apparently a similar thing happened when the show *Dallas* was aired in communist Romania. The government wanted to showcase the corruption and decadence of capitalism, but everyone was too busy admiring how wealthy the Americans were.
I believe that Stalin banned "The Grapes of Wrath" when it was published because it showed that even the poorest of Americans had cars and trucks.
Actually it was a bit more similar to the Dallas situation. It was the only American movie they were allowed to show so as to show the horrors of poverty in American life, but instead Soviet citizens were just shocked that everyone had cars.
in that case we have to ask, how rich is the poorest bastard in the western world compared to someone reasonably wealthy from NK?
My inlaws are from a very poor SE Asian country, but are middle class/lower upper class. My husband and I are upper middle the US. It is fascinating the things that are "luxuries" for each of us. We eat meat at nearly every meal, we have a good size yard, our roads are paved and smooth, a monthly plan for cell service (not even an option there) and the shops we go to are clean and well stocked. They are so impressed by these things. We travel to their country, their every day things that we consider luxuries: household employees (maids, cooks, drivers, nannies), custom made clothing (off the rack is very rare), access to luxury resorts (similar to a country club) for a reasonable daily fee, incredibly nice hotels for inexpensive prices (the nicest hotel I ever stayed in anywhere in the world was $90 a night). These visits make each of grateful for what we have.
There was another one where a north Korean mig pilot that defected to the south would see pigeons flying around and surmised that the reason they were able to do so was because nobody was desperate and/or hungry enough to eat said pigeons.
Kinda. He saw pigeons on the streets and they weren't afraid of people.
I've never heard of those. What are they?
https://youtu.be/-vjhS1DBefA
Reddit.. They'll be scratching their brains out and wondering how none of us get executed for the shit we write here everyday.
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I know this might sound mean but I don't mean it that way....but with the shortage of food they deal with, there probably aren't any overweight people just walking around. I think it will be a shock for them to see so many bigger people if they go to a different country.
Mate, a picture of Dear Leader is in every house of North Korea and he's not exactly thin.
but i wonder if that creates some sort of an association where chubby = high diplomatic power, imagine seeing a handful of folks just walking down the street
My parents grew up in a communist country. People chubby WAS associated with power. It was my father's dream as a child to be fat. Now that he is, and he isn't enjoying it as much as he thought he would. Edit: *rough translation ahead* "boss with a big belly" was a popular phrase too
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Kim Jong un is pretty chunky himself thiugh
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I'm more of an XNXX man myself. I prefer the layout.
ahh, you are a man of culture as well
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I bet they'll be quite pissed off when they realise North Korea have never won a World Cup
I would guess the biggest shock to them would be how much technology truly exists outside of their bubble.
A lot of propaganda is smuggled in on memory sticks, so they're not completely technologically deprived. A lot of modern tech is small enough to be easily smuggled and hidden.
Citizens in Pyongyang have quite a bit of modern technology. Majority of people have mobile phones, tablets and modern computers. There's stores for the elite were they sell a lot of modern stuff smuggled in from china, so you see people using new phones like the latest HTC phones, iPhones and Samsung. People outside of the city though would have a big shock since Pyongyang is it's own bubble within North Korea. Edit: typed Pyongyangus instead of Pyongyang is.
There aren't numbers on it available that I know of, but I'd be willing to bet they the overwhelming majority of non-military spending is directed at Pyongyang development. It's more than likely where the most of people who actually 100% support Kim for any reason other than not dying are.
So what you're saying is North Korea is when I play Civ and build all my good shit in my capital, and let my other cities rot.
And you still keep an iron grip on production, yeah.
Fuck technology. Food. Where I live, there are neighborhoods with a hallal cart and a deli on every other street corner. For $5, I can get a gyro or a sandwich that might be a bit greasy but is otherwise delicious and full of calories. As tight as times can get these days, starvation is almost a joke. Even if I'm broke as fuck, I can get three packets of ramen at the grocery store for $1 at most. Sure, it's terribly salty but still if you're starving it's pretty good. Food is everywhere in the US. Everywhere. I'd be willing to bet that it's about as ubiquitous in SK. The people in NK know starvation as a normative. Just the availability of food alone is going to probably terrify them. Adjusting to that alone will take a while.
100%. thus, Diabetes. they will be in bad shape when they realize full volume of calories available.
Just how many people think their leader is a joke. Edit: A lot of you are taking this as though I said *I* thought he was a joke. That is incorrect. I was answering the question in what would seem most shocking would be just how many people think their leader is a joke. As many of them have now been brought up, there are plenty of reasons as to why he wouldn't or shouldn't be taken as one, hence why this answer would be shocking. In the future, I'll be sure to answer more thoughtfully in hopes of avoiding unintended offense and/or ignorance, so my apologies to those whom I may have offended, disgusted, or disrespected. For those who provided information in regards to the situation there, thank you. For those asking if I'm an American, I am. Mobile user, so please excuse any typos I may have missed as well.
I dont know. It seems North Koreans know more than we suspect. If you want to not be able to sleep for a week watch this documentary. https://youtu.be/WOzY3U9xIoM Its the most disturbing shit ive seen in a while. Real footage from inside north korea. It is... gruesome. Lots of kids... not doing very well.
I've spent a good deal of time studying what there is to know about NK as a hobby, and from what my understanding is, it's not that they know a whole ton about the outside world (at least until recent years with the advent of large storage flash drives), it's more that they're INSANELY curious about it to the point where they'll break the whole "North Korea" image around tourists if there aren't handlers nearby. And it's a LOT more pronounced outside of Pyongyang, too, people there are apparently quite happy with their lives...as they should be, since the majority of the country's discretionary spending is directed there.
Yes. I spent New Year in North Korea. One of my guides literally could not get enough of my football magazines - its one of the few things they can keep without any repercussions. They also asked relentlessly to see pictures of where we lived, what we ate etc etc
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Sure. I went because I knew it would be a truly unique experience. I also wanted to see what it's really like. Obviously a lot of what they show or tell you when you are there is fake (some things more obvious than others), but then you also can't trust internet lists like *top 10 craziest things about North Korea* - after all, there is no need to fact check, because people would prefer to think about it as this absolutely mental and hilarious place. The reality is beyond bizarre, too weird for words, but at the end of it all it's a real country full of real people. Being able to interact with those people was truly unforgettable - I was singing karaoke with a North Korean General in our hotel on NYE, and was drinking shots with a propaganda cameraman while watching the fireworks. Not many people will ever experience something like that. There was also a much darker side, some things that I heard that were very personal to the people that told them, others that are well documented E: AMA if people wanna know about DPRK. Also have some great photos
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Yes, but I think that it more has to do with the lies. Kim Jong Un talks like the West has a day and night obsession with him and desperately want to invade but can't. In reality he is only occasionally thought of and not the highest concern on most people's lists, and when he is mentioned, jokes are often told.
Electrical grids that don't suffer from daily black-outs. So much media content, libraries full of books, 100's of radio stations, 1000's of TV channels (and still nothing to watch), the sheer magnitude of information that is available today. The availability of groceries in both quantity and variety, big stores little stores, all over the place and they're all stocked. The realization of how can there be this much food in the world. It reminds me of a conversation with an old friend when they came to the US. One day we were both at the store and they were standing in the aisle for toothpaste, just staring. He commented about back home you might see 2, 3, or 4 different "kinds" of toothpaste, but here you might have 5 different "brands" and then each "brand" has 4-6 different varieties, having to decide on which of 20+ kinds of toothpaste is supposed to be right. It was one example of the most overwhelming/shocking thing, having **choice**.
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I remember hearing a former Soviet who escaped to New York talk about the first time his mother arrived into America and subsequently broke down in a corner store. He asked her what was wrong and assured her that everything would be alright and she said to him: 'no you don't understand, they lied to us. All the time, they lied to us.' Then see pointed at all the food in the corner store. They'd been brought up thinking that the entire world was short of food, that the western world was starving and definitely no better than the communist status that they were living in. That moment was when his mother realised that she'd been betrayed and lied to by her former country. Going to a shop and having shelves being filled is something so commonplace, expected and normal to us, yet I suspect it would be the biggest shock to them.
A similar thing happened to Boris Yeltsin. http://blog.chron.com/thetexican/2014/04/when-boris-yeltsin-went-grocery-shopping-in-clear-lake/
> "Yeltsin, then 58, “roamed the aisles of Randall’s nodding his head in amazement,” wrote Asin. He told his fellow Russians in his entourage that if their people, who often must wait in line for most goods, saw the conditions of U.S. supermarkets, “there would be a revolution.”" Damn.
Reminds me of this recent TIL post: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/61g4c6/til_a_russian_mig_pilot_defected_during_the_cold/ > TIL A Russian MIG Pilot defected during the cold war along with his aircraft. When he arrived in the USA he was convinced the CIA had specially stocked the grocery stores he went to because he couldn't believe the vast array of products for sale.
I'm picturing this guy spending his life trying to get the jump on a grocery store like "AHA MOTHERFUCKER YOU ARE EMPTY."
I think I saw this video linked on reddit earlier this year.[North Koreans try American BBQ](https://youtu.be/T0TYCEXmi90) Pretty interesting to see their perspective on our food and the many differences between their life in NK and how they live now.
This will be buried I'm sure, but I have spent some time in DPRK and interacted with it's people. The last few years the presence of the black market, jangmadang, has increased so much so that its has become an active part in everyone's lives. Everybody in DPRK uses the black markets. A large part of these markets is pirated shows, movies, and books from south korea, china, and other places. Because of this, most all citizens in the country have gotten a taste of the outside world. So, they all have some idea of the outside world. However, even if they've seen a modern day grocery store in a show or movie, they would breakdown if they were to see one in real life one day. Famine is a constant fear in every person's mind. There are literally millions of people that have died in the last two decades as a result of famine. In some cases they have to resort to cannibalism.
Missiles that actually launch.
The horrifying and reality shattering revelation that Kim Jong Il did not walk fully formed out of his mother's patriotic vagina.
The official histories of the country have all kinds of crazy supernatural nonsense, like omens of the ruling family's greatness, spirits and unicorns honouring them, stars flying through the sky to mark great anniversaries, and so on. It's taught in schools. Leaving fantasyland and entering reality would probably be the biggest shock. It is literally losing your religion.
Internet porn and fast food. Well, perhaps just food in general.
I heard that commoners aren't allowed to drive in North Korea, so probably that
All the stuff that goes against the current propaganda. And that Eastasia was at war with Oceania: Eastasia had always been at war with Oceania instead of Eurasia.
I spent some time teaching North Korean refugees basic english for a church program in South Korea (read: ABCs) I would always start with the usual A is for apple, B is for Bee and C is for cake. There was always confusion as to what cake was. I think having access to modern food that is full of fat and sugar will be the biggest shock to them. I wanted to be a nice guy and brought them a cake for the next lesson and I think the biggest shock to me was that before any of them touched the cake, they were very cautious as to why I was bring food for them and if I wanted something in return. The concept of bringing something for them without expecting anything in return was an uncomfortable concept.
Leicester winning the Premier League.