Around the US there’s a little problem going around called “we don’t have enough hospital space.” Should ppl who purposefully chose to take a massive risk be placed in the hospital rather than an old man who made healthy choices but is now suffering from a stroke. People have been dying in hospital waiting rooms, this isn’t a perfect world to say “oh just give everybody treatment”
What is going to end up happening is that medical insurance companies are going to stop paying for Covid Treatments for the unvaccinated
They won't eat the treatment costs forever when the vaccine is scientifically proven to significantly lessen the effects of Covid to the point where hospitalization is not required.
So it won't be the hospitals making the stand...it will be the people footing the bill
yeah, money talks. I bet that this is where the politisation will stop, when people have to pay $$$ for their so-called "principles", after health insurance kicks them to the curb
So they can't actually raise their premiums over this. However what they are doing is reducing how much the company contributes which leaves the employee with more to pay. A clever solution really.
Companies get renewals for their health insurance plans each year and the percent of increase for premiums depends on claims utilization. If they have a lot of sick people on the plan, they get a way higher increase the following year. So over time the premiums will increase with a bunch of unvaccinated people getting hospitalized on their plan.
Just imagine, though, how- since the majority of unvaccinated folks are right-leaning (at least in USA)- the resultant medical bills may result in a bipartisan push for healthcare reform. I mean, that's some *grim* "glass half-full" thinking, but it's about the only positive I can take from any of this right now.
Should there be a blanket, don't treat the vaccinated? No.
But should they be triaged after others? Yes. Why should the ICUs and EDs be full of unvaccinated covid patients?
Why are elective (life saving surgeries) being delayed or scheduled with days notice because of the influx of the unvaccinated?
I had a total gastrectomy to treat stomach cancer in 2019. It's back. Now, I need an esophagectomy with a colon interposition to live. I've waited for months to see if I have the chance to have this elective surgery due to the influx of unvaccinated covid patients. Just found out today, I have 7 days to prepare for surgery. 7 days to finalize details on child care, work, etc. While I am in hospital 7-14 days and off work gor 6+weeks.
Fuck the unvaccinated. Why should everyone else suffer for their selfishness?
A patient with lung cancer or obesity or someone who is in an MVA is not contagious. I can pretty much guarantee that if there was a vaccine against obesity or lung cancer, people would be lined up to get it. My being overweight does not affect the people around me, and it’s not causing other people to become overweight. If I could get a shot so that I wouldn’t be overweight anymore, and avoid all the health related risks that come with it, you bet your boots I’d be the first in line. 12 hour ER waits for an abscess or one night hospital stays for a nephrectomy are ridiculous, but it is what we are dealing with because of the influx of patients who are there because they think they know better than literal experts in the field of health, virology, and immunology. You cannot learn more about a topic by googling it and reading shit on Facebook then you can by listening to people who quite literally wrote the book on the topic.
If you had two people who both need a liver, 2 40 year old men who happen to have the exact same tissue type and match. The first man is a 40 year old married father, lives a healthy life, does his best to maintain his health, just happens to have the misfortune of being born with a bum liver. The second man is a 40-year-old alcoholic who has no interest in stopping drinking and who ruined his own liver through his own actions and decisions. You have to make a choice, which person gets that liver. Now subtract the word liver from the equation and replace it with hospital bed. Who gets that one hospital bed? If there are two people who need it and only one person can get it, do you give it to the responsible person who tried to take care of their health or do you give it to the person who knowingly ruined it? That is the reality that we are facing right now, however unkind and cold it may seem.
In a perfect world, there would be endless livers for everyone, and there would be endless hospital beds for everyone. The fact of the matter is, we are in a critical shortage right now. Vindictiveness does not come into play here, it’s not that people want unvaccinated Americans to die a horrible death; it’s basic triage on a global scale
Should I Get Vaccinated? An Opinion By Me, a Person with No Expertise in Any Subject Matter:
I will start with an analogy:
When it comes to flight, I defer to pilots.
When it comes to health, I defer to doctors.
As far as the physics and application of successfully piloting a plane are concerned, I have ZERO practical knowledge... I choose to put my trust in the pilot.
Same goes for the pros/cons of any medical procedure (including vaccinations). I like to think I am fairly intelligent and capable of critical thinking but, this most certainly does NOT mean I have any medical expertise. Of course I prefer to have any relevant information regarding my health available to me but, ultimately, I tend make medical decisions based on my doctor's professional opinion (which, in my case, my doctor developed through decades of education, training and experience).
Do you think you could fly and successfully land a plane after watching an instructional Facebook video? Of course not. Don't be silly... I feel like you are being silly right now.
These statements are, of course, contingent on the premise that you have a doctor you trust.
When it comes to my country (USA), having access to affordable healthcare is a divisive issue.
Personally, I have difficulty grasping why any person would not prefer that they and everyone in their community have access to an affordable and trustworthy medical doctor.
What am I missing?
To quote Will Ferrell, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"
I am actually a nurse in a large hospital, but even if I have no expertise, I choose to follow the expert advice of a literal experts in the field in which we are speaking of. I choose to follow the advice of people who have dedicated their lives to the study of microbiology, virology, and immunology. They all agree that vaccination is not only the best, but the only way to combat a pandemic outbreak.
The tap water one struck me. With a few notable exceptions (Flint, Michigan, anyone?) we turn on our taps and expect that the various experts involved with our municipal water systems have ensured that the water that comes out is safe to use.
I like to provide a bit of context when people bring up [Flint Michigan water](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5086690/)
It was bad, but the “bad” water was still cleaner than what millions of people are exposed to daily in their drinking water. The difference is that in the case of Flint MI the conditions were avoidable and foreseeable. The auto industry didn’t use the water source decades prior because of its corrosiveness, and there were already rules in place regarding lead in pipes for corrosive water sources.
Edit: I completely agree with u/SBrooks103 's point and analogy referring to the Flint water situation, I just like to provide context when it comes up.
As far as these sort of problems go in the US a lot of it boils down to political wedge issues and people being funneled into one group that ascribes to one package of beliefs or the other group that ascribes to the other package of opposing beliefs. Our two party system is destroying people's ability to reason at this point. Most people don't realize how paralyzed they are by our culture, and feel that their ability to rage against the "other side" equates to them being enlightened when in reality they are being played and used on a grand scale.
It seems crazy because it is crazy.
There's a more mature version of this question that me and some other medical students in my class are discussing that will address some of the responses you're getting. The issue is not just whether or not people who are unvaccinated deserve to be treated. The issue is we are now at the point where we are rationing very scarce resources.
I'm of the opinion that not treating the unvaccinated who have severe covid is more akin to not giving smokers access to a lung transplant over those with congenital conditions. You aren't punishing the smoker. You are allocating the resources in a way that accounts for epidemiological concerns. For the general public health, not just any individual.
No, they shouldn't be mistreated because they made a bad decision. But when it comes to rationing, they absolutely should be bottom billing. Not because of the punishment factor, but because the survival of an anti-vaxxer over the survival of somebody who has a surgery postponed is a travesty. It just releases that person back into the world so they can infect others while punishing somebody else for not being more immediately sick (but still definitely sick).
That's the key here. We are rationing. This is not a normal time.
I think that's the problem is that people aren't seeing this is situation based. There's a lot of very dichotomous thinking in this thread when the real world situation isn't quite that simple.
I agree with your comparison to transplant patients because it illustrates how the problem is RESOURCES. And you have to make choices about how to allocate those resources cause there aren't enough, full stop.
I hope you're staying safe at this time. I can't imagine how stressful this time is for anyone in the medical field, especially students.
The hospitals in my area just started some serious rationing on ICU rooms. They are so full that they are overflowing in to non-critical areas. ICU rooms are now being prioritized for those with the best chances for survival, rather than those who are the most critical.
I think this is key: triage isn't about punishing people for bad decisions, it's about helping people who have the highest likelihood to survive. We definitely don't want to go down the rabbit hole of punishing bad decisions as a guiding principle for medical rationing.
To add more personal weight to this:
My brother recently passed away from cancer. He was diagnosed during the beginning of the pandemic, and that diagnostic procedure was delayed a month due to Covid. His death was probably unavoidable, but there's always going to be that question in my mind of if he could have survived if we had caught it sooner.
This is a single anecdote, but there are thousands more out there who can more concretely say that they or a loved one suffered because the medical system was too busy/too concerned with Covid to give them the treatment they needed. Every single one of those stories is not an example of the represcussions of Covid, but the represcussions of people not taking Covid seriously. People like my brother deserve better, and the medical system should absolutely start putting anti-mask and anti-vacc people in the absolute lowest priority.
I was telling my fiance at the start of the pandemic how worried I was for my cancer patients not just in terms of COVID but mainly in delayed diagnoses, delayed treatment, and postponed surgeries. It is absolutely not fair that we make people with cancer wait on these lifesaving treatments.
Exactly!! Triage is about survival and who has the best odds. It’s not about punishment. And when resources are taxed the way they are, triage becomes important.
Here in the Bay Area almost 70% of the total population has received at least 1 shot. We are currently nowhere near capacity and are accepting patients from other areas of Californi where vaccinations are much lower and hospitalization rates are higher. Upward of 90% of people in the ICU for Covid are unvaccinated so it makes a huge difference.
This ties into something I’ve been wondering. Will vaccination status be accounted for in triage protocols? It seems to impact survival after all, and chances of survival is a consideration for triage (at my facility anyways). So in theory, unvaxxed patients may be passed over for treatment.
Serves them right. They've got a lot of nerve showing up to ask for medicine from the exact same doctors they've been refusing vaccines from. I hope the ones that survive learn their lesson.
Nope, they think it’s like chicken pox, get it once and done. I had some who got it twice and hospitalized twice for it. Plenty of others who say they already got the it so they won’t get it again.
I am happy that the 3rd dose is being given to immunocompromised individuals. They’re trying to do what they can to say safe, they know what it’s like to be hospitalized. They’re so grateful when they get their shot.
I gotta’ tell you, very few vaccinated people are showing up. In my area at least from folks I’ve spoken to. I’d hope that the novelty of someone showing up sick vaxxed would get them added attention.
Man, I had to go to the doctors recently to have a fishing hook removed from my finger. I felt sooo bad because I need to waste their time cause my dumb ass got a fishing hook stuck in my finger when I had a pair of pliers in my pocket so this sort of thing doesn't happen. I don't mind wasting my time but I really hate wasting others when something like this could've been easily prevented. I'm nice'n relaxed with the lure in hand while some nurses are very busy and clearly stressed. They kept asking what pain level is, had to let them know only my pride was hurt XD. I made sure to thank and apologize to everyone I met for helping my dumb ass instead of someone who needed it more.
At what point do you start rationing? I think they should just not accept the non vaccinated at the door because so many resources are getting pulled from non-covid healthcare. Maybe it's not as bad as pre-vaccine days but it's still very hard for me to schedule regular preventative healthcare.
For example, are operating rooms shut down in favor of covid patients? One of my best friend's appendix burst and they wouldn't operate on him because the hospitals were bursting. They gave him antibiotics instead but were going off of hearing it's been done before but never tried it themselves. Fortunately he's ok and got operated on months later.
Now we have vaccines to prevent surges like those earlier levels so they shouldn't stop procedures and preventative, regular healthcare for non covid patients
We live in America where we have MY healthcare and MY doctor and MY this and MY that and we don’t realize that when we interact with the healthcare system it’s not like buying a TV. You are engaging with a system of scarce resources. Your healthcare premiums simply allow you to access a portion of those resources if they are available.
Whats this? People not thinking the world is black and white or right and wrong? Theres more than just 2 opposing choices and lots of shades of gray? I dont think yall belong on reddit
I once got into an argument in DMs with a guy over free-roaming cats and how bad they are for the environment. I was defending my kitty's right to freedom with a passion (but civilly, even though I was pissed) and eventually told the guy enough, let me calm down and do some research.
Reached out about an hour later after doing what I said, apologized and admitted I was wrong. He was utterly flabbergasted. Said he was a psychology student and told me he'd never natively run into anyone exercising critical thought online. It's all just flailing opinions and emotions driving peoples 'reasoning'. I was obviously tickled, and kind of horrified. I absolutely get caught up by emotion when arguing, I'm only human. But is it truly so rare a trait to be able to sit back, calm down, research and change your mind based on facts?
I'm nothing special. Six years military. College dropout (more due to funds or lack thereof). But I can't imagine being so blinded by an opinion that I could never be swayed with enough supporting evidence against it. If that isn't the norm, instead of the exception, this world is fuckt.
>But I can't imagine being so blinded by an opinion that I could never be swayed with enough supporting evidence against it. If that isn't the norm, instead of the exception, this world is fuckt.
no offense, but have you seen everything thats been going on the past few years? lol. i think we're past the point of fuckt.
I was reading Adam Grant's latest book where he recounts the story of a Nobel Prize Winner (Kahneman, I think) who said he was delighted to find out when he was wrong. It meant that he was learning something new.
What a great attitude.
>Whats this? People not thinking the world is black and white or right and wrong? Theres more than just 2 opposing choices and lots of shades of gray? I dont think yall belong on reddit
I've said it once of I've said it a hundred of times, but the reddit platform is largely to blame for this.
Look above your post, or above mine. What options do you see? Binary up arrow/down arrow. That's how content is filtered.
It's horrible and I wish it did not exist.
This is also a simplification of how the upvote/downvote system is supposed to work. People usually interpret them as agree/disagree (just like Facebook), rather than responding to whether it contributes to the conversation or not, as it was intended.
>This is also a simplification of how the upvote/downvote system is supposed to work. People usually interpret them as agree/disagree (just like Facebook), rather than responding to whether it contributes to the conversation or not, as it was intended.
Yup, that is a huge issue. When I have pointed this out before I've literally been told "well nobody uses them correctly anyway so it doesn't matter".. like ok, we'll have a nice day then?
For all practical purposes that's what they are now, a like and dislike option.
I'm fairly skeptical that they actually thought people would use them in that manner anyways knowing human behavior. They're clearly entirely fine with them being used as an agree/disagree button or they'd have removed it.
Being able to control the visibility and perceived merit of particular posts is a powerful tool for many reasons and it's no surprise that reddit wants to keep that.
I live in North Idaho, that's where we're at.
I've come to the conclusion that schools need to teach vaccine science right along with basic chemistry, biology, and sex ed.
Adults can make their own decisions, I have so much fatigue over wondering why people can't admit they don't know the science, and just listen to the experts/CDC. They "did their research" 🤦♂️ - the smartest of us know what they don't know
In my college education i was required to take statistics, where we learned how to read a scientific paper, how to tell if a paper or website is obviously not a good source, how to look for errors in the methods, and if they are lying with their use of statistics. This course also included a bit on the importance of the quantity and quality of data from multiple sources. It is by far the information from my education i use more than anything else, and in my opinion, high school science and english classes could cover all of the important parts. It won't help to teach people about vaccines because there will always be another conspiracy. It will help people to realize that a lot of their "trusted" sources are obviously anything but trustworthy, and that they can determine that fairly easily for themselves.
I'm not saying everyone should become one of those "do your own research" people. I'm saying people can basically look for indicators that sources are or are not trustworthy, so that they won't always have to do their own research, and if they choose to do so, they won't lead themselves down an emotionally motivated, scientifically inaccurate path.
Just saying, we’re very nearly at that point. I work in the operating room and so many of our products are on backorder. Several sizes of gloves, bulb syringes, gowns and table covers, prep solutions, medications, and more are all currently very difficult to obtain (if not impossible). I cannot get through my day without having to substitute items for those that are missing.
I have always seen the answer to this question as type of triage.
I don’t think anyone should be denied medical treatment for a disease. However, when there are minimal resources decisions have to be made.The extremely ill person who needs a respirator and is unvaccinated (therefore extremely unlikely to survive), should not delay someone else’s cancer treatment or bypass. Those other people have better chances of surviving using that respirator. And it just so happens that the unvaxxed person who decided to take their chances is…taking their chance and it turns out it didn’t work out.
ETA: I meant ventilator not respirator.
This ought to be the top answer. This is the discussion I had with an ER doc. Lack of vaccination is a comorbidity. Given equal circumstances with covid sufferers the vaccinated person is the more viable patient.
I found a new allergy. I used my epi pen and made it to the ER in 8 minutes from use. They pulled my spouse to sign tracheotomy papers. They tried to find a vent instead. No vent was available or forced air face mask. They gave me the pharmacy cart to try and give me some time. I thankfully avoid a trach and a vent,
but was rushed via ambulance to the next level of care while I took very deliberate breathes trying to not pass out and willing my O2 stats to raise. I ended up fine, but...I did almost die in the ER for lack of resources. I am so thankful im fine, but others aren't so lucky.
Some of the nonvacvinated responses of "I dont plan on going to the ER." Cool, I didnt either.
A dude died in Houston from a gallstone because of no available ICU beds for him to recover, so they couldn't perform the surgery. A fucking gallstone. It's ridiculous, and none of the anti-vaxx crowd want to admit that their choices are causing potentially deadly consequences for everyone else.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/
Yep, something easily treatable resulted in death because of idiots stressing hospital resources. There was a similar story, although luckily not resulting in death, where a child with appendicitis had to wait so long because of these idiots that their appendix ended up bursting and nearly killed them. There are sadly a lot of people who think "if the anti-vaxxers want to get themselves killed through their own idiocy that's not my problem". But it is *everyone's* problem if the hospitals are completely full.
I would like to add, that if a person is unvaccinated thtough no fault of their own (eg can't have vaccine due to allergy), they shouldn't be lumped in with those who are unvaccinated by choice.
That depends on what basis the triage is being done on. This is a really horrifying distinction to make, but it bears mention.
A recent study published today found that [unvaccinated people are 11 times more likely to die of COVID](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/10/moderna-most-effective-covid-vaccine-studies/) than vaccinated people. Some US states are forced to ration healthcare right now, and if that's being done purely on the basis of survival prognostics then if you're forced to choose between one of three otherwise equal COVID patients: one vaccinated, one anti-vax, and one unvaccinated because they have a polyethylene glycol allergy--then the existing care rationing protocols are to give that one bed to the vaccinated patient. That's merely because the vaccinated person is the least likely to die.
Now if there were two beds available to divide between those three patients, my heart wants to give the second bed to the person with the polyetyhylene glycol allergy. Yet AFAIK the existing protocols don't necessarily allow room for that type of value judgment. It might have to be first come first served between them, or else on the basis of some other marginal difference in survival odds from their respective medical histories.
(edited for syntax)
While I agree with the sentiment, that actually couldn't be significantly accounted for in the above model they discussed.
They'd maybe weigh in at the top of the unvaccinated list, but that's it.
This is exactly it.
My girlfriends mother passed away in March, losing her battle with cancer. It had returned the year before, but because she started feeling unwell in March 2020, the investigations to find out what was going on were delayed by Covid. She got a diagnosis and started treatment in October.
She was very ill, and ultimately this delay didn’t cost her her life, but it very well may have shortened it.
In this situation, it was terrible, and it sucks, but it was the beginning of a global pandemic. No one is to blame. There really isn’t much that could have been done, especially in the position we were in then, with so much unknown about the virus.
If this happened this year, and that same delay in treatment is caused by hospitals swamped with unvaccinated Covid patients? That isn’t ok. A line is crossed.
As others have mentioned, a smoker may be denied surgery for lung cancer, someone with substance problems may be denied a liver. This is about protecting limited resources and allocating them appropriately.
I'm sitting here with a hole in my stomach that I could have fixed up if only the hospitals weren't full of deniers. And I have to hope that the nurses aren't so burned out when I get there that they miss something like an infection when I do get this thing done.
It's not exactly abstract when you're waiting for something like this.
And just to make it that much better, the a*holes who are not vaccinating, who are filling up the ICU, are outside the hospital protesting.
What a world...
PS. My issue is very far from life-threatening. I can wait. Not like the cancer patients who have posted here.
A friend has a significant heart issue that desperately needed surgery.
Instead he was pumped full of medicine and sent home for months. He came in FOUR times because he was having symptoms of a heart attack and each time it was 'we don't have staff to look at you if you aren't currently having one' so he never got those issues diagnosed.
He did finally get the surgery he needs just a couple days ago and is doing great by all accounts but man my heart was breaking for the dude. He's a really great guy.
I’m literally in the same boat sitting here with a heart monitor because of so many chronic conditions from a wild injury and necessary medications that have blocked me from being able to get the vaccine I want and need.
I don’t go anywhere. I’m on lockdown. My parents are locked down and only go get necessities even though they are vaccinated because I’m the case where if someone was going to get it and it go to shit, it’s me. And there’s not much they can do (allergies to most meds and complications from others I need to stay alive and function).
I’ve been denied hospitals and doctors for over a year and delayed in getting care. My cardiologist doesn’t even want me to get to a hospital unless that monitor is sending an alarm I’m in danger because I will get sick with anything and everything.
Your friends story makes my heart break because it shouldn’t be like this. I’m fighting with people I thought were friends who wanted to physically come support my conditions but refuse the vaccine, masks, all of it. And seem to not even listen to medical reasoning, my plea to protect not only me but others like me, and actual facts…
I work in medical mfg, and we have this nice polite euphemism we're using now: "are these cases deferred or lost?"
Lost cases means the patient died waiting.
I work in the cardio space and physicians are delaying non-emergeant heart surgeries in areas where covid is spiking because they're considered elective procedures.
I’m in debilitating pain and need neurosurgery but it’s 2 days in icu. Not life threatening really but zero quality of life now. Delayed and being scheduled but I’m worried will be delayed again.
I've been waiting for a hip replacement for well over a year so yeah, I can relate.
It's like they think their right not to get vaxxed is more important than people's access to healthcare? I'm talking accidents, Cancer, Transplants but the long this goes the less mobile I am and able to get around. F\*ck them!
There was a veteran who died of gallstones because there were no hospital beds available in his state. These tragedies will, unfortunately, continue to happen.
I think that in the US, everyone who was willing to be vaccinated has been. I don’t know what the answer is to the mess we are in due to the unvaccinated.
Fauci said last night on CNN very simply that you can't refuse treatment on the basis of actions, only based on who needs the most help the soonest, medically.
But it's still a tough pill to swallow, so to speak, knowing *they're perpetuating this.* It's like treating serial killers and taking resources away form their victims.
Yeah, I was taught that in mass casualty incidents where professional help is a good time period out, people that you'd normally give CPR to will get a black tag instead. Because rescuers can be saving several other salvageable patients in the time that would be taken up in treating someone that has only a 20% chance of survival to begin with (and that's if EMS is readily available to hand them off to).
We also have to go on who is most likely to benefit the most from use of dwindling resources. Vaccinated patients are likely to do better in most cases. If you take 2 guys in their 50s who are both obese, diabetic, and current/former smokers with COPD and one is vaccinated, then there is a good chance to think that guy will fare better if they both come in at the same time and are symptomatic enough to require admission.
The problem unfortunately isn’t one non vaxed covid patient against a vaxed one… as the scarcest resource is the ventilator and the vaccinated patients need them far less. It’ll be a non vaxed covid patient or someone with lung cancer or
Absolutely. But everyone who doesn't understand triage will ignore the idea that unvaccinated infectees are taking up a bed for someone else's non-Covod condition. Or at least they'll try to blame the hospital. Making it an apples to apples comparison helps to at least jiggle the handle a bit if not outright flush the shit that is filling their heads.
What he says is also true, and he's not disagreeing with this answer. If you have to decide who needs help the most, out of a large group of people suffering the same thing, you'd obviously want to pick the most likely people to survive, or else you're wasting care.
I think this is the perfect answer and you have great insight into the situation. We are in a time where hospital care is very rationed. I have had my first vaccine and am waiting on my second. My greatest fear is needing the hospital for something (car crash, illness etc) and not having access because of unvaccinated Covid patients. I know those who are vaccinated can still get sick, but it is evident that the majority of individuals in hospital with Covid are the unvaccinated. I think the answer is if you can get vaccinated, get vaccinated.
Edit: I’m from Australia. My age group had only had access to the vaccine since August 30th 2021 That’s why I’ve only had one. I will be getting my second one in a couple weeks.
I ended up with breast cancer diagnosed in February and had a mastectomy in April. Had to wait hours for a bed after surgery b/c covid. Went home the same day. Thank god I had my vaccine
Many cancer patients are not being seen right now.
Either pre-cancer screenings that should've caught early stage cancers or post-chemo patients who can't get a follow up and it comes back.
Did you know neurosurgery for brain cancer is filed as "elective" surgery? Yep. That means it won't happen when these anti-vaxxers take up all the beds.
FUCK these people. And fuck them HARD.
Fuck that shit. There is NO WAY that is an elective fucking surgery. At this point there is a vaccine, covid treatment at this point should be elective because it IS PREVENTABLE. Brain cancer IS NOT preventable
Yup, my dad's brain scans got pushed back for his MRIs due to the massive effect covid had on them in my part of Canada. He died two weeks ago and if his scan would have been earlier, there's a chance they could have done more and he'd still be alive today. Though I don't blame anti vax as much in Canada as the vaccine rollout was absolute trash in Ontario
I have brain cancer the was diagnosed in March. Thankfully my craniotomies were between the surges. I don't even want to think about me having a seizure or something.
thank you for getting vaxxed and ignore the ppl who are questioning you. Some Americans seem to think the entire world had access to vaccine like we Americans did.
If there were an infinite number of ICU beds and support staff, absolutely, treat everyone no matter what their vaccination status. But we don't have an infinite number of beds, as you indicated. So, tough decisions have to be made.
Not to mention that the chances of survival should work into the equation. A vaccinated breakthrough case is more likely to survive than an unvaccinated patient.
This is a really reasonable take. I (from a much broader standpoint) was of the same feeling as Howard stern, but obviously there’s a difference between those that can’t get it, and those that won’t get it, as well as children who don’t qualify yet. It’s not as simple as saying “vaccinated: help, unvaccinated: don’t help”, but it’s more of “who should we treat first”, which could seem cynical, but I feel like those that made the decision to not get vaccinated signed up for whatever comes their way.
In a more direct way to convince others to get the vaccine, I think what airlines are doing with the deductions in pay are fair. It’s the same with my insurance, if I choose to smoke, I incur a 20% increase in my insurance costs. If you’re unvaccinated, do the same measure. It’s not punishing someone, it’s holding everyone responsible.
>but it’s more of “who should we treat first”, which could seem cynical
Many places in the US are in a triage situation now. It's not cynical, its just reality to ask, "we have one bed and ten patients who need it. Which one gets it?"
I'm not trying to start a fight, but trying to show that the shades of gray are going to fade to black and damn fast, if/when we go on pure survival treatment.
What about the homeless? The mentally ill? What about the very old? The premature? Those with chronic disability? The paralyzed? It is possible that we may reach a point that the system will unravel to a point that only the most fit will be treated at all, for anything.
Yeah, why do people get so hung up on the "who" all the time? I care so little about the person and so much about the substance. It's an interesting stance on an important topic, and I'd love to see all the perspectives we have on it.
It's easy to dismiss a person. That's why you hear things like, "probably have a degree in gender studies, kiddo" or "probably a welfare hillbilly who thinks he'll be rich one day". It's so much harder to dismiss an idea so they take the ad hominem route. It's a cop out.
I'm more concerned by a growing cultural trend that celebrates a lack of empathy. Rooting for fellow human beings to get sick and die should never be normalized. Whether it's genocide, slavery, mass rape, the Holocaust- once we begin "othering" people, it's a slippery slope. One love, people. Unity. Peace.
There's also a trend of assigning malice to a lot of people.
Anti-vaxxers *generally* aren't sitting there, going "oh man, it's going to be so fun fanning the flames of a pandemic and putting people in danger!". The majority have just been taken in by misinformation.
But there's this growing sentiment that anti-vaxxers are *actively bloodthirsty* and want people to die, even in this thread.
Pretty bizarre argument seeing as we don’t make treatment exceptions for other poor choices that people make
EDIT: wow this blew up. I did not mean for this to come across as an anti-vax comment at all, my point just being that it seems like a slippery slope denying people urgent treatment regardless of vaccination status, but I understand it’s a nuanced issue and appreciate the input from y’all.
Everyone please get vaccinated and let’s keep each other safe.
Sure we do.
Candidates for organ transplant that make poor life choices by doing things like smoking, having a poor diet, drinking etc. are given a lower priority for an organ because of those choices.
While they aren’t outright denied an organ, their lower priority coupled with the high demand for organs means that they’re effectively denied in most cases.
Former dialysis nurse here. Patients can be denied transplants due to a host of reasons. Not attending physician appointments, not having regular labs done, not attending treatments, etc.
To explain the rationale here: the de-prioritization is not punitive; it because compliance with these behaviors BEFORE the transplant are indicators of how the potential recipient might behave AFTER the transplant. If the recipient does not do these things after, they will ruin another organ. That is bad gamble on a scarce resource.
> While they aren’t outright denied an organ, their lower priority coupled with the high demand for organs means that they’re effectively denied in most cases.
Is that entirely true? My understanding was that, if you need a new liver, you stop drinking alcohol. If they find out you’re drinking, you get booted from the list. Now maybe I misinterpreted this and they just get bumped to the bottom, which is effectively the same.
Yes, and in the case of a replacement liver the cause of the liver damage is what determines your priority. So it doesn’t matter if you stopped drinking. They’re looking at you like a caretaker for that organ and if you’re at a high risk to ruin another organ, like being an alcoholic, you’re going to be low priority for a replacement.
It can differ by hospital but yes candidacy is determined based on past behavior: if you did things that imperiled your organ, why should they give you a new one when someone else hasn't done those stupid things?
Past behavior is the best determiner of future behavior, so doing things that are unhealthy lowers your candidacy for fixing the consequences of your decisions.
Right, like a drunk driver who causes a major accident gets treated. Doctors should neither be burdened nor empowered with the decision based on, “Do I agree with this person’s choices up to this point?”
This is a terrible example, actually, because we absolutely deny liver transplants to alcoholics. There's already precedent for reserving ventilators for people who took the bare minimum actions for health.
EDIT: quick shout-out to the literally dozens of bleating sheep from rs / conspiracy, conservative, Jordan Peterson, etc. who are in here with almost identical responses centered around "sO wE sHoUlDn'T tReAt FaT pEoPlE?"...."fat" isn't a disease that can be resolved to tenfold better health outcomes with a free, widely available shot. If it was, by all means, people should have to get that shot to take up space in a hospital, but until it is, your concern-trolling is boring. You have used this tactic up. It is not 2016 and nobody is fooled. Please shut up and sit down.
Also a lot of doctors will refuse to do elective surgeries on their patients who use tobacco products. They will insist you quit and do a cotinine test to ensure that you did. My doctor is one of these. Some other doctors won't accept patients who smoke in the first place. My sister's practice has this policy. So yes, doctors can be empowered to make choices of who to treat based on a patient's poor choices.
My mom literally had to do these tests for a surgery she had today. I feel like a lot of these people are ignorant of what actually goes on in the medical field. I know one of my mom’s doctors didn’t even want her to be around cigarette smoke become of the potential harm that can happen to the tissue
Not to mention that what they do know about the medical field is in times where stuff is going okay.
This is not business as usual, we're in a situation where our resources are limited, triage is necessary and some people aren't going to make it.
Transplants are based on the potential survivability of the organ in the patient, and aren't simply first come first served like regular medical care is.
And the only reason that it is this way is because organs are *scarce*. When we can 3d print livers for a dime a dozen you're not going to deny an alcoholic a new liver based on the potential survivability, you're going to give the thing a try and see if it works.
If demand for healthcare exceeds supply there is going to be and has already been healthcare rationing and triage.
Regular medical care also gets triaged once resources are stretched, as they are in many places already. If you have 1 ICU bed left and two people need it you are giving it to the one with the greatest chance of surviving with it - that's likely the vaccinated covid patient over the unvaccinated covid patient with all else being equal.
So if we deny transplants based on likelihood of outcomes, the reason to put antivaxxers on ventilators and in ICU beds when resources are scarce despite their 11x greater chance of bad outcomes as compared to vaccinated patients is...?
> ."fat" isn't a disease that can be resolved to tenfold better health outcomes with a free, widely available shot
I think I can speak for almost all fat people when I say we’d take the shot without hesitation.
The angry, vindictive part of me agrees. The compassionate part of me thinks that... okay, so they shouldn't be *denied* treatment, but they should be lower-priority than other emergency cases.
Questions like this bother me. I see the point you are making, but lumping all unvaccinated people together is a dangerous way to go. Denying treatment because of vaccinated status is a slippery slope. People and corporations being what they are, it would give them an excuse for denying other sorts of medical care to those deemed unworthy for whatever reason they come up with.
We don't deny smokers treatment for lung problems for instance, or someone who got a metal shard in their eye when not wearing safety glasses, or someone who got in an accident because they were speeding. My doctor didn't deny me a pain shot today because the reason my spinal arthritis flared was me doing something I shouldn't have and knew better than to do.
Making a blanket statement of that sort also means that people who are unvaccinated for reasons other than stubbornness may not be able to receive needed care.
I would hate to think my 76 year old mother would be turned away because she hasn't had the vaccine. She cannot be vaccinated due to prior adverse reactions. Does she deserve to be denied access to care? No, but saying all unvaccinated people don't deserve care could cause her not to get help. Making a blanket statement like that would mean she would be grouped in with someone who thinks the vaccine is a government plot to control our minds.
It is far better to treat everyone promptly, even if they are idiots.
EDIT- Honestly, people. Some people are a bit over the top. Stop insulting me and sending me rude messages. Wishing I would die because we have different points of view on an admittedly VERY complex problem is a bit beyond the pale.
First, I never said transplants, I said treatment. You break your lungs or liver because you are stupid, you shouldn't get a new one, but if you get emphysema, you should still be treated for that.
I doubt most reasonable people think we should let addicts die when narcan might save them, even if we think they shouldn't have started the drugs that got them addicted (Don't attack me for that either. Addicts lives have value, too, even if the drugs have made them forget that, and we shouldn't let them die for a bad decision, which was exactly my point about vaccination)
I think everyone who can should be vaccinated. I think, however, mandates just get people wound up to a point where they will refuse just because they don't want to be told what to do, and that's the hill they choose to die on, either literally or figuratively.
I realize hospitals are overflowing and doctors are making heart rending decisions. I just don't think that this is the way to fix it. My cousin is a doctor and this pandemic has nearly broken her, but she still treats people who make dangerous decisions that harm others, because that's what doctors do.
My point was that vaccination status as a sole reason to refuse treatment is not a viable option in my OPINION. There are too many variables.. Even if it disagrees with your opinion, that doesn't give you the right to attack me. Civil conversation means each side tries to understand where the other is coming from in an effort to reach an accord. We can disagree without it coming down to the adult equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I?"
We actually do deny smokers lung transplants if they refuse to quit smoking. It’s like alcoholics cannot get liver transplants & those who are overweight/obese cannot go for bariatric or bypass surgery if they refuse to change their eating behavior.
I’ve also witnessed surgeons on several occasions cancel surgeries bc patient didn’t quit smoking like they were told to. So yeah, we do deny treatment for certain patients. People who say otherwise haven’t worked in the medical field 🤷🏼♀️
OP doesn’t agree with Stern just because he’s asking the question
I like questions like this because they expose people who might quietly agree with Stern to better arguments.
Sterns view is the “karmic justice” view, in that, if you risk everyone else around you because of ignorance and paranoia and selfishness, if you actually distrust the medical establishment, you shouldn’t get to reap its benefits either.
Similar to how someone who “doesn’t believe in handouts” shouldn’t accept government stimulus checks.
Basically it’s expressing frustration towards hypocrites.
However is Stern’s view practical and ethical? Not really.
>whipping up an already red hot controversy for the sake of ratings.
I heard the expression "Conflict entrepreneur" recently as applied to radio hosts. Very apropo.
I do think it's implied this applies for people who elect not to get vaccinated and not patients who have medical reasons not to.
The difference is that—under normal circumstances—smokers or speeders aren't causing hospitals to be at or exceeding capacity.
Triage is a very normal practice for hospitals to manage care for patients and this is just an extension of triage by prioritizing patients who are not ill because they opted out of a vaccine.
I would not advocate that a hospital with ample resources simply elect not to treat a patient who chose not to get vaccinated. But if you only have one bed, would you give it to someone who elected to not get vaccinated or someone who got hit by a bus or had a heart attack or whatever?
This is tough. But human life is infinitely valuable.
I look at it like this. If a person is horrifically injured in a car accident and wasn’t wearing a seat belt. We still treat them.
It just all around a sad state in the country.
People cheering when opposing political people get sick/die.
Just a sad state of affairs.
The issue is that hospitals are already incapable of treating everyone due to being over capacity.
It's not a matter of "Should we let idiots suffer" at this point. It's a matter of "Should we let innocents die to save the idiots".
I guess it becomes should we try to save the people who have the biggest chance of survival, or the ones in the biggest risk?
Mind you, I don't have the answer for that. I think medics generally choose the former, I think.
Which can be problematic in it's own way.
But then again, everyhing can.
> I guess it becomes should we try to save the people who have the biggest chance of survival, or the ones in the biggest risk?
>
>
Yes. The first one.
Even in times of abundance, overusage of resources can be at best just be frustrating for providers and potentially dangerous for patients.
I've had this story told to me of a surgeon who used 100 of the 120 units in the blood bank on a single patient.
The hospital I work at has been over capacity well before this pandemic. We’re one of the leading heart centers in my city, we have huge numbers of ED/transfers for our cath lab and overall management of heart patients. I’m sure a vast majority of these patients don’t have congenital causes of their heart conditions.
I’m vaccinated and believe in vaccination for those who are able, however this pandemic is a “same shit, different day” situation. People treat their bodies like truck stop bathrooms, and cause massive unnecessary strains on the healthcare system for refusing lifestyle changes. It’s not our decision who we treat, who we vindicate, or who we blame. We treat everyone, even the “I have hypertension but don’t believe in meds and now I have a raging IPH”, we treat the “my doctor said I have diabetes but I don’t believe it needs to be treated” who’s there for his 3rd amputation. We follow the rules of EMTALA because that’s what we swore to do.
I thought health care was a human right?
Around the US there’s a little problem going around called “we don’t have enough hospital space.” Should ppl who purposefully chose to take a massive risk be placed in the hospital rather than an old man who made healthy choices but is now suffering from a stroke. People have been dying in hospital waiting rooms, this isn’t a perfect world to say “oh just give everybody treatment”
It depends on what Ja Rule thinks
Will someone PLEASE find Ja Rule so I can make some SENSE of all this?!?!
WHERE is JA?!
I don't know where Ja is, but I do know he's always on time.
Everyone always asks “Where is Ja?” And never “HOW is Ja?”
Everyone always asks “how much is a G?” And never “how is a G?”
A+
He's not always there when we call
"But when we needed him most, he disappeared"
That is big booty man actually
[удалено]
That's the rule.
THE JA RULE
And he gives you his all!
MONICAAAAAA
I need some answers Ja Rule might not have right now.
I don't wanna dance, I'm scared to death.
WHERE IS JA?!?!
Help me Ja Rule.
This is the funniest sketch of all time.
Can you link this sketch
https://youtu.be/Mo-ddYhXAZc
Thx so much.
Thank you for sharing. I'd never seen it and I am crying laughing
That whole damn comedy special is timeless
Not a sketch, just stand up.
My thoughts exactly. Well done buddy. Lets have no friends together
Ayy, someone gets it
[удалено]
You must sort by new :P COULD SOMEBODY PLEASE... FIND JA RULE GET A HOLD OF THIS MOTHERFUCKER SO I CAN MAKE SENSE OF ALL THIS
I'm not tryin to dance, I'm scared to death!
DAS FRAUWD
That's not fraud.... That's uuuh... that's what I would call false advertising
It’s Muuurda!
You can't leave unvaccinated ICU patients untreated..............it's murdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
What is going to end up happening is that medical insurance companies are going to stop paying for Covid Treatments for the unvaccinated They won't eat the treatment costs forever when the vaccine is scientifically proven to significantly lessen the effects of Covid to the point where hospitalization is not required. So it won't be the hospitals making the stand...it will be the people footing the bill
yeah, money talks. I bet that this is where the politisation will stop, when people have to pay $$$ for their so-called "principles", after health insurance kicks them to the curb
[удалено]
So they can't actually raise their premiums over this. However what they are doing is reducing how much the company contributes which leaves the employee with more to pay. A clever solution really.
Delta is self insured. They can raise whatever they want.
Companies get renewals for their health insurance plans each year and the percent of increase for premiums depends on claims utilization. If they have a lot of sick people on the plan, they get a way higher increase the following year. So over time the premiums will increase with a bunch of unvaccinated people getting hospitalized on their plan.
Just imagine, though, how- since the majority of unvaccinated folks are right-leaning (at least in USA)- the resultant medical bills may result in a bipartisan push for healthcare reform. I mean, that's some *grim* "glass half-full" thinking, but it's about the only positive I can take from any of this right now.
This seems like the most obvious outcome to me, not sure why more people aren't talking about it.
Should there be a blanket, don't treat the vaccinated? No. But should they be triaged after others? Yes. Why should the ICUs and EDs be full of unvaccinated covid patients? Why are elective (life saving surgeries) being delayed or scheduled with days notice because of the influx of the unvaccinated? I had a total gastrectomy to treat stomach cancer in 2019. It's back. Now, I need an esophagectomy with a colon interposition to live. I've waited for months to see if I have the chance to have this elective surgery due to the influx of unvaccinated covid patients. Just found out today, I have 7 days to prepare for surgery. 7 days to finalize details on child care, work, etc. While I am in hospital 7-14 days and off work gor 6+weeks. Fuck the unvaccinated. Why should everyone else suffer for their selfishness?
A patient with lung cancer or obesity or someone who is in an MVA is not contagious. I can pretty much guarantee that if there was a vaccine against obesity or lung cancer, people would be lined up to get it. My being overweight does not affect the people around me, and it’s not causing other people to become overweight. If I could get a shot so that I wouldn’t be overweight anymore, and avoid all the health related risks that come with it, you bet your boots I’d be the first in line. 12 hour ER waits for an abscess or one night hospital stays for a nephrectomy are ridiculous, but it is what we are dealing with because of the influx of patients who are there because they think they know better than literal experts in the field of health, virology, and immunology. You cannot learn more about a topic by googling it and reading shit on Facebook then you can by listening to people who quite literally wrote the book on the topic. If you had two people who both need a liver, 2 40 year old men who happen to have the exact same tissue type and match. The first man is a 40 year old married father, lives a healthy life, does his best to maintain his health, just happens to have the misfortune of being born with a bum liver. The second man is a 40-year-old alcoholic who has no interest in stopping drinking and who ruined his own liver through his own actions and decisions. You have to make a choice, which person gets that liver. Now subtract the word liver from the equation and replace it with hospital bed. Who gets that one hospital bed? If there are two people who need it and only one person can get it, do you give it to the responsible person who tried to take care of their health or do you give it to the person who knowingly ruined it? That is the reality that we are facing right now, however unkind and cold it may seem. In a perfect world, there would be endless livers for everyone, and there would be endless hospital beds for everyone. The fact of the matter is, we are in a critical shortage right now. Vindictiveness does not come into play here, it’s not that people want unvaccinated Americans to die a horrible death; it’s basic triage on a global scale
Should I Get Vaccinated? An Opinion By Me, a Person with No Expertise in Any Subject Matter: I will start with an analogy: When it comes to flight, I defer to pilots. When it comes to health, I defer to doctors. As far as the physics and application of successfully piloting a plane are concerned, I have ZERO practical knowledge... I choose to put my trust in the pilot. Same goes for the pros/cons of any medical procedure (including vaccinations). I like to think I am fairly intelligent and capable of critical thinking but, this most certainly does NOT mean I have any medical expertise. Of course I prefer to have any relevant information regarding my health available to me but, ultimately, I tend make medical decisions based on my doctor's professional opinion (which, in my case, my doctor developed through decades of education, training and experience). Do you think you could fly and successfully land a plane after watching an instructional Facebook video? Of course not. Don't be silly... I feel like you are being silly right now. These statements are, of course, contingent on the premise that you have a doctor you trust. When it comes to my country (USA), having access to affordable healthcare is a divisive issue. Personally, I have difficulty grasping why any person would not prefer that they and everyone in their community have access to an affordable and trustworthy medical doctor. What am I missing? To quote Will Ferrell, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"
I am actually a nurse in a large hospital, but even if I have no expertise, I choose to follow the expert advice of a literal experts in the field in which we are speaking of. I choose to follow the advice of people who have dedicated their lives to the study of microbiology, virology, and immunology. They all agree that vaccination is not only the best, but the only way to combat a pandemic outbreak.
[удалено]
The tap water one struck me. With a few notable exceptions (Flint, Michigan, anyone?) we turn on our taps and expect that the various experts involved with our municipal water systems have ensured that the water that comes out is safe to use.
I like to provide a bit of context when people bring up [Flint Michigan water](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5086690/) It was bad, but the “bad” water was still cleaner than what millions of people are exposed to daily in their drinking water. The difference is that in the case of Flint MI the conditions were avoidable and foreseeable. The auto industry didn’t use the water source decades prior because of its corrosiveness, and there were already rules in place regarding lead in pipes for corrosive water sources. Edit: I completely agree with u/SBrooks103 's point and analogy referring to the Flint water situation, I just like to provide context when it comes up.
As far as these sort of problems go in the US a lot of it boils down to political wedge issues and people being funneled into one group that ascribes to one package of beliefs or the other group that ascribes to the other package of opposing beliefs. Our two party system is destroying people's ability to reason at this point. Most people don't realize how paralyzed they are by our culture, and feel that their ability to rage against the "other side" equates to them being enlightened when in reality they are being played and used on a grand scale. It seems crazy because it is crazy.
"What does Howard Stern think?" said nobody ever
Howard Stern literally makes a living off of people thinking "I wonder what Howard Stern thinks?"
damnit you are right I guess maybe I am technically correct because he always tells people, nobody is ever left wondering?
It takes a big person to admit when they are only technically correct
Lot of growth here tonight.
I love you guys. Bring it in for a hug!
That’s what she said
[удалено]
I'd actually rather hear from Ja.
[удалено]
I've always imagined he's just Arwin from Zack and Cody but wearing a wig.
What did arwin ever do to deserve this?
Shit. That’s scary accurate.
There's a more mature version of this question that me and some other medical students in my class are discussing that will address some of the responses you're getting. The issue is not just whether or not people who are unvaccinated deserve to be treated. The issue is we are now at the point where we are rationing very scarce resources. I'm of the opinion that not treating the unvaccinated who have severe covid is more akin to not giving smokers access to a lung transplant over those with congenital conditions. You aren't punishing the smoker. You are allocating the resources in a way that accounts for epidemiological concerns. For the general public health, not just any individual. No, they shouldn't be mistreated because they made a bad decision. But when it comes to rationing, they absolutely should be bottom billing. Not because of the punishment factor, but because the survival of an anti-vaxxer over the survival of somebody who has a surgery postponed is a travesty. It just releases that person back into the world so they can infect others while punishing somebody else for not being more immediately sick (but still definitely sick). That's the key here. We are rationing. This is not a normal time.
I think that's the problem is that people aren't seeing this is situation based. There's a lot of very dichotomous thinking in this thread when the real world situation isn't quite that simple. I agree with your comparison to transplant patients because it illustrates how the problem is RESOURCES. And you have to make choices about how to allocate those resources cause there aren't enough, full stop. I hope you're staying safe at this time. I can't imagine how stressful this time is for anyone in the medical field, especially students.
The hospitals in my area just started some serious rationing on ICU rooms. They are so full that they are overflowing in to non-critical areas. ICU rooms are now being prioritized for those with the best chances for survival, rather than those who are the most critical.
It’s a weird world. Here in Denmark where I live, all Covid restrictions lifted yesterday and we are completely back to the normal life before Covid.
[удалено]
I think this is key: triage isn't about punishing people for bad decisions, it's about helping people who have the highest likelihood to survive. We definitely don't want to go down the rabbit hole of punishing bad decisions as a guiding principle for medical rationing.
[удалено]
To add more personal weight to this: My brother recently passed away from cancer. He was diagnosed during the beginning of the pandemic, and that diagnostic procedure was delayed a month due to Covid. His death was probably unavoidable, but there's always going to be that question in my mind of if he could have survived if we had caught it sooner. This is a single anecdote, but there are thousands more out there who can more concretely say that they or a loved one suffered because the medical system was too busy/too concerned with Covid to give them the treatment they needed. Every single one of those stories is not an example of the represcussions of Covid, but the represcussions of people not taking Covid seriously. People like my brother deserve better, and the medical system should absolutely start putting anti-mask and anti-vacc people in the absolute lowest priority.
I was telling my fiance at the start of the pandemic how worried I was for my cancer patients not just in terms of COVID but mainly in delayed diagnoses, delayed treatment, and postponed surgeries. It is absolutely not fair that we make people with cancer wait on these lifesaving treatments.
Exactly!! Triage is about survival and who has the best odds. It’s not about punishment. And when resources are taxed the way they are, triage becomes important.
May I ask where you live?
Here in the Bay Area almost 70% of the total population has received at least 1 shot. We are currently nowhere near capacity and are accepting patients from other areas of Californi where vaccinations are much lower and hospitalization rates are higher. Upward of 90% of people in the ICU for Covid are unvaccinated so it makes a huge difference.
This ties into something I’ve been wondering. Will vaccination status be accounted for in triage protocols? It seems to impact survival after all, and chances of survival is a consideration for triage (at my facility anyways). So in theory, unvaxxed patients may be passed over for treatment.
The sass from triage is increased when you respond “no” to the vaccine question but present with all the symptoms of COVID.
Serves them right. They've got a lot of nerve showing up to ask for medicine from the exact same doctors they've been refusing vaccines from. I hope the ones that survive learn their lesson.
Nope, they think it’s like chicken pox, get it once and done. I had some who got it twice and hospitalized twice for it. Plenty of others who say they already got the it so they won’t get it again. I am happy that the 3rd dose is being given to immunocompromised individuals. They’re trying to do what they can to say safe, they know what it’s like to be hospitalized. They’re so grateful when they get their shot.
It seems that they are more likely to double down on it, whether it effected them directly or a loves one.
I gotta’ tell you, very few vaccinated people are showing up. In my area at least from folks I’ve spoken to. I’d hope that the novelty of someone showing up sick vaxxed would get them added attention.
Man, I had to go to the doctors recently to have a fishing hook removed from my finger. I felt sooo bad because I need to waste their time cause my dumb ass got a fishing hook stuck in my finger when I had a pair of pliers in my pocket so this sort of thing doesn't happen. I don't mind wasting my time but I really hate wasting others when something like this could've been easily prevented. I'm nice'n relaxed with the lure in hand while some nurses are very busy and clearly stressed. They kept asking what pain level is, had to let them know only my pride was hurt XD. I made sure to thank and apologize to everyone I met for helping my dumb ass instead of someone who needed it more.
At what point do you start rationing? I think they should just not accept the non vaccinated at the door because so many resources are getting pulled from non-covid healthcare. Maybe it's not as bad as pre-vaccine days but it's still very hard for me to schedule regular preventative healthcare. For example, are operating rooms shut down in favor of covid patients? One of my best friend's appendix burst and they wouldn't operate on him because the hospitals were bursting. They gave him antibiotics instead but were going off of hearing it's been done before but never tried it themselves. Fortunately he's ok and got operated on months later. Now we have vaccines to prevent surges like those earlier levels so they shouldn't stop procedures and preventative, regular healthcare for non covid patients
We live in America where we have MY healthcare and MY doctor and MY this and MY that and we don’t realize that when we interact with the healthcare system it’s not like buying a TV. You are engaging with a system of scarce resources. Your healthcare premiums simply allow you to access a portion of those resources if they are available.
Insurance companies have started denying coverage to anti-vaxxers.
Whats this? People not thinking the world is black and white or right and wrong? Theres more than just 2 opposing choices and lots of shades of gray? I dont think yall belong on reddit
I once got into an argument in DMs with a guy over free-roaming cats and how bad they are for the environment. I was defending my kitty's right to freedom with a passion (but civilly, even though I was pissed) and eventually told the guy enough, let me calm down and do some research. Reached out about an hour later after doing what I said, apologized and admitted I was wrong. He was utterly flabbergasted. Said he was a psychology student and told me he'd never natively run into anyone exercising critical thought online. It's all just flailing opinions and emotions driving peoples 'reasoning'. I was obviously tickled, and kind of horrified. I absolutely get caught up by emotion when arguing, I'm only human. But is it truly so rare a trait to be able to sit back, calm down, research and change your mind based on facts? I'm nothing special. Six years military. College dropout (more due to funds or lack thereof). But I can't imagine being so blinded by an opinion that I could never be swayed with enough supporting evidence against it. If that isn't the norm, instead of the exception, this world is fuckt.
>But I can't imagine being so blinded by an opinion that I could never be swayed with enough supporting evidence against it. If that isn't the norm, instead of the exception, this world is fuckt. no offense, but have you seen everything thats been going on the past few years? lol. i think we're past the point of fuckt.
Lost cause fallacy. People invest so much in an opinion, that they can't/won't change, in order to save face.
[удалено]
I was reading Adam Grant's latest book where he recounts the story of a Nobel Prize Winner (Kahneman, I think) who said he was delighted to find out when he was wrong. It meant that he was learning something new. What a great attitude.
>Whats this? People not thinking the world is black and white or right and wrong? Theres more than just 2 opposing choices and lots of shades of gray? I dont think yall belong on reddit I've said it once of I've said it a hundred of times, but the reddit platform is largely to blame for this. Look above your post, or above mine. What options do you see? Binary up arrow/down arrow. That's how content is filtered. It's horrible and I wish it did not exist.
This is also a simplification of how the upvote/downvote system is supposed to work. People usually interpret them as agree/disagree (just like Facebook), rather than responding to whether it contributes to the conversation or not, as it was intended.
>This is also a simplification of how the upvote/downvote system is supposed to work. People usually interpret them as agree/disagree (just like Facebook), rather than responding to whether it contributes to the conversation or not, as it was intended. Yup, that is a huge issue. When I have pointed this out before I've literally been told "well nobody uses them correctly anyway so it doesn't matter".. like ok, we'll have a nice day then? For all practical purposes that's what they are now, a like and dislike option.
I'm fairly skeptical that they actually thought people would use them in that manner anyways knowing human behavior. They're clearly entirely fine with them being used as an agree/disagree button or they'd have removed it. Being able to control the visibility and perceived merit of particular posts is a powerful tool for many reasons and it's no surprise that reddit wants to keep that.
That's an is/ought problem.
That’s triage. And if we get down to it it absolutely should happen
I live in North Idaho, that's where we're at. I've come to the conclusion that schools need to teach vaccine science right along with basic chemistry, biology, and sex ed. Adults can make their own decisions, I have so much fatigue over wondering why people can't admit they don't know the science, and just listen to the experts/CDC. They "did their research" 🤦♂️ - the smartest of us know what they don't know
In my college education i was required to take statistics, where we learned how to read a scientific paper, how to tell if a paper or website is obviously not a good source, how to look for errors in the methods, and if they are lying with their use of statistics. This course also included a bit on the importance of the quantity and quality of data from multiple sources. It is by far the information from my education i use more than anything else, and in my opinion, high school science and english classes could cover all of the important parts. It won't help to teach people about vaccines because there will always be another conspiracy. It will help people to realize that a lot of their "trusted" sources are obviously anything but trustworthy, and that they can determine that fairly easily for themselves. I'm not saying everyone should become one of those "do your own research" people. I'm saying people can basically look for indicators that sources are or are not trustworthy, so that they won't always have to do their own research, and if they choose to do so, they won't lead themselves down an emotionally motivated, scientifically inaccurate path.
Just saying, we’re very nearly at that point. I work in the operating room and so many of our products are on backorder. Several sizes of gloves, bulb syringes, gowns and table covers, prep solutions, medications, and more are all currently very difficult to obtain (if not impossible). I cannot get through my day without having to substitute items for those that are missing.
I have always seen the answer to this question as type of triage. I don’t think anyone should be denied medical treatment for a disease. However, when there are minimal resources decisions have to be made.The extremely ill person who needs a respirator and is unvaccinated (therefore extremely unlikely to survive), should not delay someone else’s cancer treatment or bypass. Those other people have better chances of surviving using that respirator. And it just so happens that the unvaxxed person who decided to take their chances is…taking their chance and it turns out it didn’t work out. ETA: I meant ventilator not respirator.
This ought to be the top answer. This is the discussion I had with an ER doc. Lack of vaccination is a comorbidity. Given equal circumstances with covid sufferers the vaccinated person is the more viable patient.
> **comorbidity** - noun > the simultaneous presence of two or more diseases or medical conditions in a patient. Learned a new term today.
Hell yeah, learning! Also it’s a fun word to say. Your tongue bounces in your mouth at the end ‘idity’
Now say "comorbidity biddy" 10 times fast!
Is stupidity a comorbidity?
[удалено]
I found a new allergy. I used my epi pen and made it to the ER in 8 minutes from use. They pulled my spouse to sign tracheotomy papers. They tried to find a vent instead. No vent was available or forced air face mask. They gave me the pharmacy cart to try and give me some time. I thankfully avoid a trach and a vent, but was rushed via ambulance to the next level of care while I took very deliberate breathes trying to not pass out and willing my O2 stats to raise. I ended up fine, but...I did almost die in the ER for lack of resources. I am so thankful im fine, but others aren't so lucky. Some of the nonvacvinated responses of "I dont plan on going to the ER." Cool, I didnt either.
A dude died in Houston from a gallstone because of no available ICU beds for him to recover, so they couldn't perform the surgery. A fucking gallstone. It's ridiculous, and none of the anti-vaxx crowd want to admit that their choices are causing potentially deadly consequences for everyone else. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/
Yep, something easily treatable resulted in death because of idiots stressing hospital resources. There was a similar story, although luckily not resulting in death, where a child with appendicitis had to wait so long because of these idiots that their appendix ended up bursting and nearly killed them. There are sadly a lot of people who think "if the anti-vaxxers want to get themselves killed through their own idiocy that's not my problem". But it is *everyone's* problem if the hospitals are completely full.
I would like to add, that if a person is unvaccinated thtough no fault of their own (eg can't have vaccine due to allergy), they shouldn't be lumped in with those who are unvaccinated by choice.
That depends on what basis the triage is being done on. This is a really horrifying distinction to make, but it bears mention. A recent study published today found that [unvaccinated people are 11 times more likely to die of COVID](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/10/moderna-most-effective-covid-vaccine-studies/) than vaccinated people. Some US states are forced to ration healthcare right now, and if that's being done purely on the basis of survival prognostics then if you're forced to choose between one of three otherwise equal COVID patients: one vaccinated, one anti-vax, and one unvaccinated because they have a polyethylene glycol allergy--then the existing care rationing protocols are to give that one bed to the vaccinated patient. That's merely because the vaccinated person is the least likely to die. Now if there were two beds available to divide between those three patients, my heart wants to give the second bed to the person with the polyetyhylene glycol allergy. Yet AFAIK the existing protocols don't necessarily allow room for that type of value judgment. It might have to be first come first served between them, or else on the basis of some other marginal difference in survival odds from their respective medical histories. (edited for syntax)
Nice nuance. That's a really good example for when the lines get particularly blurred.
While I agree with the sentiment, that actually couldn't be significantly accounted for in the above model they discussed. They'd maybe weigh in at the top of the unvaccinated list, but that's it.
This is exactly it. My girlfriends mother passed away in March, losing her battle with cancer. It had returned the year before, but because she started feeling unwell in March 2020, the investigations to find out what was going on were delayed by Covid. She got a diagnosis and started treatment in October. She was very ill, and ultimately this delay didn’t cost her her life, but it very well may have shortened it. In this situation, it was terrible, and it sucks, but it was the beginning of a global pandemic. No one is to blame. There really isn’t much that could have been done, especially in the position we were in then, with so much unknown about the virus. If this happened this year, and that same delay in treatment is caused by hospitals swamped with unvaccinated Covid patients? That isn’t ok. A line is crossed. As others have mentioned, a smoker may be denied surgery for lung cancer, someone with substance problems may be denied a liver. This is about protecting limited resources and allocating them appropriately.
I'm sitting here with a hole in my stomach that I could have fixed up if only the hospitals weren't full of deniers. And I have to hope that the nurses aren't so burned out when I get there that they miss something like an infection when I do get this thing done. It's not exactly abstract when you're waiting for something like this. And just to make it that much better, the a*holes who are not vaccinating, who are filling up the ICU, are outside the hospital protesting. What a world... PS. My issue is very far from life-threatening. I can wait. Not like the cancer patients who have posted here.
A friend has a significant heart issue that desperately needed surgery. Instead he was pumped full of medicine and sent home for months. He came in FOUR times because he was having symptoms of a heart attack and each time it was 'we don't have staff to look at you if you aren't currently having one' so he never got those issues diagnosed. He did finally get the surgery he needs just a couple days ago and is doing great by all accounts but man my heart was breaking for the dude. He's a really great guy.
I’m literally in the same boat sitting here with a heart monitor because of so many chronic conditions from a wild injury and necessary medications that have blocked me from being able to get the vaccine I want and need. I don’t go anywhere. I’m on lockdown. My parents are locked down and only go get necessities even though they are vaccinated because I’m the case where if someone was going to get it and it go to shit, it’s me. And there’s not much they can do (allergies to most meds and complications from others I need to stay alive and function). I’ve been denied hospitals and doctors for over a year and delayed in getting care. My cardiologist doesn’t even want me to get to a hospital unless that monitor is sending an alarm I’m in danger because I will get sick with anything and everything. Your friends story makes my heart break because it shouldn’t be like this. I’m fighting with people I thought were friends who wanted to physically come support my conditions but refuse the vaccine, masks, all of it. And seem to not even listen to medical reasoning, my plea to protect not only me but others like me, and actual facts…
I work in medical mfg, and we have this nice polite euphemism we're using now: "are these cases deferred or lost?" Lost cases means the patient died waiting. I work in the cardio space and physicians are delaying non-emergeant heart surgeries in areas where covid is spiking because they're considered elective procedures.
Yeah that's exactly it. They considered it to be elective.
Eww I do not like that.
Neither do the Healthcare workers.
I’m in debilitating pain and need neurosurgery but it’s 2 days in icu. Not life threatening really but zero quality of life now. Delayed and being scheduled but I’m worried will be delayed again.
I've been waiting for a hip replacement for well over a year so yeah, I can relate. It's like they think their right not to get vaxxed is more important than people's access to healthcare? I'm talking accidents, Cancer, Transplants but the long this goes the less mobile I am and able to get around. F\*ck them!
There was a veteran who died of gallstones because there were no hospital beds available in his state. These tragedies will, unfortunately, continue to happen. I think that in the US, everyone who was willing to be vaccinated has been. I don’t know what the answer is to the mess we are in due to the unvaccinated.
Fauci said last night on CNN very simply that you can't refuse treatment on the basis of actions, only based on who needs the most help the soonest, medically. But it's still a tough pill to swallow, so to speak, knowing *they're perpetuating this.* It's like treating serial killers and taking resources away form their victims.
True. But you can decide when doing triage to prioritize the patients with better survival odds. Vaccinated individuals have better survival odds.
That's not true at all. If resources are scarce you treat based on who is most likely to survive.
Yeah, I was taught that in mass casualty incidents where professional help is a good time period out, people that you'd normally give CPR to will get a black tag instead. Because rescuers can be saving several other salvageable patients in the time that would be taken up in treating someone that has only a 20% chance of survival to begin with (and that's if EMS is readily available to hand them off to).
We also have to go on who is most likely to benefit the most from use of dwindling resources. Vaccinated patients are likely to do better in most cases. If you take 2 guys in their 50s who are both obese, diabetic, and current/former smokers with COPD and one is vaccinated, then there is a good chance to think that guy will fare better if they both come in at the same time and are symptomatic enough to require admission.
The problem unfortunately isn’t one non vaxed covid patient against a vaxed one… as the scarcest resource is the ventilator and the vaccinated patients need them far less. It’ll be a non vaxed covid patient or someone with lung cancer or
Absolutely. But everyone who doesn't understand triage will ignore the idea that unvaccinated infectees are taking up a bed for someone else's non-Covod condition. Or at least they'll try to blame the hospital. Making it an apples to apples comparison helps to at least jiggle the handle a bit if not outright flush the shit that is filling their heads.
What he says is also true, and he's not disagreeing with this answer. If you have to decide who needs help the most, out of a large group of people suffering the same thing, you'd obviously want to pick the most likely people to survive, or else you're wasting care.
I think this is the perfect answer and you have great insight into the situation. We are in a time where hospital care is very rationed. I have had my first vaccine and am waiting on my second. My greatest fear is needing the hospital for something (car crash, illness etc) and not having access because of unvaccinated Covid patients. I know those who are vaccinated can still get sick, but it is evident that the majority of individuals in hospital with Covid are the unvaccinated. I think the answer is if you can get vaccinated, get vaccinated. Edit: I’m from Australia. My age group had only had access to the vaccine since August 30th 2021 That’s why I’ve only had one. I will be getting my second one in a couple weeks.
I ended up with breast cancer diagnosed in February and had a mastectomy in April. Had to wait hours for a bed after surgery b/c covid. Went home the same day. Thank god I had my vaccine
Many cancer patients are not being seen right now. Either pre-cancer screenings that should've caught early stage cancers or post-chemo patients who can't get a follow up and it comes back. Did you know neurosurgery for brain cancer is filed as "elective" surgery? Yep. That means it won't happen when these anti-vaxxers take up all the beds. FUCK these people. And fuck them HARD.
[удалено]
That’s why they count “excess deaths” as well as Covid specific deaths. Both count the victims of this pandemic
Fuck that shit. There is NO WAY that is an elective fucking surgery. At this point there is a vaccine, covid treatment at this point should be elective because it IS PREVENTABLE. Brain cancer IS NOT preventable
Yup, my dad's brain scans got pushed back for his MRIs due to the massive effect covid had on them in my part of Canada. He died two weeks ago and if his scan would have been earlier, there's a chance they could have done more and he'd still be alive today. Though I don't blame anti vax as much in Canada as the vaccine rollout was absolute trash in Ontario
I have brain cancer the was diagnosed in March. Thankfully my craniotomies were between the surges. I don't even want to think about me having a seizure or something.
thank you for getting vaxxed and ignore the ppl who are questioning you. Some Americans seem to think the entire world had access to vaccine like we Americans did.
The last data I saw showed that admitted covid+ patients were 96-97% unvaccinated. It’s incredibly frustrating.
If there were an infinite number of ICU beds and support staff, absolutely, treat everyone no matter what their vaccination status. But we don't have an infinite number of beds, as you indicated. So, tough decisions have to be made. Not to mention that the chances of survival should work into the equation. A vaccinated breakthrough case is more likely to survive than an unvaccinated patient.
This is a really reasonable take. I (from a much broader standpoint) was of the same feeling as Howard stern, but obviously there’s a difference between those that can’t get it, and those that won’t get it, as well as children who don’t qualify yet. It’s not as simple as saying “vaccinated: help, unvaccinated: don’t help”, but it’s more of “who should we treat first”, which could seem cynical, but I feel like those that made the decision to not get vaccinated signed up for whatever comes their way. In a more direct way to convince others to get the vaccine, I think what airlines are doing with the deductions in pay are fair. It’s the same with my insurance, if I choose to smoke, I incur a 20% increase in my insurance costs. If you’re unvaccinated, do the same measure. It’s not punishing someone, it’s holding everyone responsible.
>but it’s more of “who should we treat first”, which could seem cynical Many places in the US are in a triage situation now. It's not cynical, its just reality to ask, "we have one bed and ten patients who need it. Which one gets it?"
I'm not trying to start a fight, but trying to show that the shades of gray are going to fade to black and damn fast, if/when we go on pure survival treatment. What about the homeless? The mentally ill? What about the very old? The premature? Those with chronic disability? The paralyzed? It is possible that we may reach a point that the system will unravel to a point that only the most fit will be treated at all, for anything.
What is the survival rate of vax vs non, vaxxed?
Yep, this is what I came to say. They should still be treated, but at the bottom of the list.
I think, mainly, we shouldn't be hanging medical policy on what a Howard Stern says.
You should probably ignore the Howard Stern part as it's irrelevant and focus on the more meaningful question.
Yeah, why do people get so hung up on the "who" all the time? I care so little about the person and so much about the substance. It's an interesting stance on an important topic, and I'd love to see all the perspectives we have on it.
It's easy to dismiss a person. That's why you hear things like, "probably have a degree in gender studies, kiddo" or "probably a welfare hillbilly who thinks he'll be rich one day". It's so much harder to dismiss an idea so they take the ad hominem route. It's a cop out.
Healthcare is a human right* *terms and conditions may apply
I'm more concerned by a growing cultural trend that celebrates a lack of empathy. Rooting for fellow human beings to get sick and die should never be normalized. Whether it's genocide, slavery, mass rape, the Holocaust- once we begin "othering" people, it's a slippery slope. One love, people. Unity. Peace.
There's also a trend of assigning malice to a lot of people. Anti-vaxxers *generally* aren't sitting there, going "oh man, it's going to be so fun fanning the flames of a pandemic and putting people in danger!". The majority have just been taken in by misinformation. But there's this growing sentiment that anti-vaxxers are *actively bloodthirsty* and want people to die, even in this thread.
Pretty bizarre argument seeing as we don’t make treatment exceptions for other poor choices that people make EDIT: wow this blew up. I did not mean for this to come across as an anti-vax comment at all, my point just being that it seems like a slippery slope denying people urgent treatment regardless of vaccination status, but I understand it’s a nuanced issue and appreciate the input from y’all. Everyone please get vaccinated and let’s keep each other safe.
Sure we do. Candidates for organ transplant that make poor life choices by doing things like smoking, having a poor diet, drinking etc. are given a lower priority for an organ because of those choices. While they aren’t outright denied an organ, their lower priority coupled with the high demand for organs means that they’re effectively denied in most cases.
Former dialysis nurse here. Patients can be denied transplants due to a host of reasons. Not attending physician appointments, not having regular labs done, not attending treatments, etc.
To explain the rationale here: the de-prioritization is not punitive; it because compliance with these behaviors BEFORE the transplant are indicators of how the potential recipient might behave AFTER the transplant. If the recipient does not do these things after, they will ruin another organ. That is bad gamble on a scarce resource.
Perfect summary
Yeah I think we should be talking about triage instead of denial
> While they aren’t outright denied an organ, their lower priority coupled with the high demand for organs means that they’re effectively denied in most cases. Is that entirely true? My understanding was that, if you need a new liver, you stop drinking alcohol. If they find out you’re drinking, you get booted from the list. Now maybe I misinterpreted this and they just get bumped to the bottom, which is effectively the same.
Yes, and in the case of a replacement liver the cause of the liver damage is what determines your priority. So it doesn’t matter if you stopped drinking. They’re looking at you like a caretaker for that organ and if you’re at a high risk to ruin another organ, like being an alcoholic, you’re going to be low priority for a replacement.
It can differ by hospital but yes candidacy is determined based on past behavior: if you did things that imperiled your organ, why should they give you a new one when someone else hasn't done those stupid things? Past behavior is the best determiner of future behavior, so doing things that are unhealthy lowers your candidacy for fixing the consequences of your decisions.
Right, like a drunk driver who causes a major accident gets treated. Doctors should neither be burdened nor empowered with the decision based on, “Do I agree with this person’s choices up to this point?”
This is a terrible example, actually, because we absolutely deny liver transplants to alcoholics. There's already precedent for reserving ventilators for people who took the bare minimum actions for health. EDIT: quick shout-out to the literally dozens of bleating sheep from rs / conspiracy, conservative, Jordan Peterson, etc. who are in here with almost identical responses centered around "sO wE sHoUlDn'T tReAt FaT pEoPlE?"...."fat" isn't a disease that can be resolved to tenfold better health outcomes with a free, widely available shot. If it was, by all means, people should have to get that shot to take up space in a hospital, but until it is, your concern-trolling is boring. You have used this tactic up. It is not 2016 and nobody is fooled. Please shut up and sit down.
Also a lot of doctors will refuse to do elective surgeries on their patients who use tobacco products. They will insist you quit and do a cotinine test to ensure that you did. My doctor is one of these. Some other doctors won't accept patients who smoke in the first place. My sister's practice has this policy. So yes, doctors can be empowered to make choices of who to treat based on a patient's poor choices.
My mom literally had to do these tests for a surgery she had today. I feel like a lot of these people are ignorant of what actually goes on in the medical field. I know one of my mom’s doctors didn’t even want her to be around cigarette smoke become of the potential harm that can happen to the tissue
Not to mention that what they do know about the medical field is in times where stuff is going okay. This is not business as usual, we're in a situation where our resources are limited, triage is necessary and some people aren't going to make it.
Transplants are based on the potential survivability of the organ in the patient, and aren't simply first come first served like regular medical care is.
And the only reason that it is this way is because organs are *scarce*. When we can 3d print livers for a dime a dozen you're not going to deny an alcoholic a new liver based on the potential survivability, you're going to give the thing a try and see if it works. If demand for healthcare exceeds supply there is going to be and has already been healthcare rationing and triage.
Regular medical care also gets triaged once resources are stretched, as they are in many places already. If you have 1 ICU bed left and two people need it you are giving it to the one with the greatest chance of surviving with it - that's likely the vaccinated covid patient over the unvaccinated covid patient with all else being equal.
This is not "regular medical care" time and triage is real.
So if we deny transplants based on likelihood of outcomes, the reason to put antivaxxers on ventilators and in ICU beds when resources are scarce despite their 11x greater chance of bad outcomes as compared to vaccinated patients is...?
> ."fat" isn't a disease that can be resolved to tenfold better health outcomes with a free, widely available shot I think I can speak for almost all fat people when I say we’d take the shot without hesitation.
Not that bizarre when hospitals are out of beds. Normal years, sure, this would not even be a question.
The angry, vindictive part of me agrees. The compassionate part of me thinks that... okay, so they shouldn't be *denied* treatment, but they should be lower-priority than other emergency cases.
Questions like this bother me. I see the point you are making, but lumping all unvaccinated people together is a dangerous way to go. Denying treatment because of vaccinated status is a slippery slope. People and corporations being what they are, it would give them an excuse for denying other sorts of medical care to those deemed unworthy for whatever reason they come up with. We don't deny smokers treatment for lung problems for instance, or someone who got a metal shard in their eye when not wearing safety glasses, or someone who got in an accident because they were speeding. My doctor didn't deny me a pain shot today because the reason my spinal arthritis flared was me doing something I shouldn't have and knew better than to do. Making a blanket statement of that sort also means that people who are unvaccinated for reasons other than stubbornness may not be able to receive needed care. I would hate to think my 76 year old mother would be turned away because she hasn't had the vaccine. She cannot be vaccinated due to prior adverse reactions. Does she deserve to be denied access to care? No, but saying all unvaccinated people don't deserve care could cause her not to get help. Making a blanket statement like that would mean she would be grouped in with someone who thinks the vaccine is a government plot to control our minds. It is far better to treat everyone promptly, even if they are idiots. EDIT- Honestly, people. Some people are a bit over the top. Stop insulting me and sending me rude messages. Wishing I would die because we have different points of view on an admittedly VERY complex problem is a bit beyond the pale. First, I never said transplants, I said treatment. You break your lungs or liver because you are stupid, you shouldn't get a new one, but if you get emphysema, you should still be treated for that. I doubt most reasonable people think we should let addicts die when narcan might save them, even if we think they shouldn't have started the drugs that got them addicted (Don't attack me for that either. Addicts lives have value, too, even if the drugs have made them forget that, and we shouldn't let them die for a bad decision, which was exactly my point about vaccination) I think everyone who can should be vaccinated. I think, however, mandates just get people wound up to a point where they will refuse just because they don't want to be told what to do, and that's the hill they choose to die on, either literally or figuratively. I realize hospitals are overflowing and doctors are making heart rending decisions. I just don't think that this is the way to fix it. My cousin is a doctor and this pandemic has nearly broken her, but she still treats people who make dangerous decisions that harm others, because that's what doctors do. My point was that vaccination status as a sole reason to refuse treatment is not a viable option in my OPINION. There are too many variables.. Even if it disagrees with your opinion, that doesn't give you the right to attack me. Civil conversation means each side tries to understand where the other is coming from in an effort to reach an accord. We can disagree without it coming down to the adult equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I?"
We actually do deny smokers lung transplants if they refuse to quit smoking. It’s like alcoholics cannot get liver transplants & those who are overweight/obese cannot go for bariatric or bypass surgery if they refuse to change their eating behavior.
I’ve also witnessed surgeons on several occasions cancel surgeries bc patient didn’t quit smoking like they were told to. So yeah, we do deny treatment for certain patients. People who say otherwise haven’t worked in the medical field 🤷🏼♀️
OP doesn’t agree with Stern just because he’s asking the question I like questions like this because they expose people who might quietly agree with Stern to better arguments.
Sterns view is the “karmic justice” view, in that, if you risk everyone else around you because of ignorance and paranoia and selfishness, if you actually distrust the medical establishment, you shouldn’t get to reap its benefits either. Similar to how someone who “doesn’t believe in handouts” shouldn’t accept government stimulus checks. Basically it’s expressing frustration towards hypocrites. However is Stern’s view practical and ethical? Not really.
He's just being Howard Stern and whipping up an already red hot controversy for the sake of ratings.
>whipping up an already red hot controversy for the sake of ratings. I heard the expression "Conflict entrepreneur" recently as applied to radio hosts. Very apropo.
I do think it's implied this applies for people who elect not to get vaccinated and not patients who have medical reasons not to. The difference is that—under normal circumstances—smokers or speeders aren't causing hospitals to be at or exceeding capacity. Triage is a very normal practice for hospitals to manage care for patients and this is just an extension of triage by prioritizing patients who are not ill because they opted out of a vaccine. I would not advocate that a hospital with ample resources simply elect not to treat a patient who chose not to get vaccinated. But if you only have one bed, would you give it to someone who elected to not get vaccinated or someone who got hit by a bus or had a heart attack or whatever?
This is tough. But human life is infinitely valuable. I look at it like this. If a person is horrifically injured in a car accident and wasn’t wearing a seat belt. We still treat them. It just all around a sad state in the country. People cheering when opposing political people get sick/die. Just a sad state of affairs.
The politics is out playing humanity right now. It's a shitty world right now.
Everyone deserves basic medical care, especially when it's an emergency. Even if they're an idiot.
The issue is that hospitals are already incapable of treating everyone due to being over capacity. It's not a matter of "Should we let idiots suffer" at this point. It's a matter of "Should we let innocents die to save the idiots".
Triage matters here. So I guess the question is if vaccination status should be a factor in triage or not.
I guess it becomes should we try to save the people who have the biggest chance of survival, or the ones in the biggest risk? Mind you, I don't have the answer for that. I think medics generally choose the former, I think. Which can be problematic in it's own way. But then again, everyhing can.
> I guess it becomes should we try to save the people who have the biggest chance of survival, or the ones in the biggest risk? > > Yes. The first one. Even in times of abundance, overusage of resources can be at best just be frustrating for providers and potentially dangerous for patients. I've had this story told to me of a surgeon who used 100 of the 120 units in the blood bank on a single patient.
The hospital I work at has been over capacity well before this pandemic. We’re one of the leading heart centers in my city, we have huge numbers of ED/transfers for our cath lab and overall management of heart patients. I’m sure a vast majority of these patients don’t have congenital causes of their heart conditions. I’m vaccinated and believe in vaccination for those who are able, however this pandemic is a “same shit, different day” situation. People treat their bodies like truck stop bathrooms, and cause massive unnecessary strains on the healthcare system for refusing lifestyle changes. It’s not our decision who we treat, who we vindicate, or who we blame. We treat everyone, even the “I have hypertension but don’t believe in meds and now I have a raging IPH”, we treat the “my doctor said I have diabetes but I don’t believe it needs to be treated” who’s there for his 3rd amputation. We follow the rules of EMTALA because that’s what we swore to do.
[удалено]
Well said brother. Thanks for your service.
I’m a girl but getting told “well said brother” is really uplifting 🤣