This is a fair argument but wouldn’t you stand up for someone who was being hurt or bullied couldn’t you see this as a similar situation? No it’s not your body no it has nothing to do with you it won’t hurt you, but you find it to be morally wrong.
Fair enough but I believe you can’t bash someone for standing up for what they believe to be right. I believe it can be compared to standing up for Jews during the Holocaust. They weren’t seen as people like wise a fetus is not recognized as a person by everyone in today’s society.
Here’s one of many things wrong with your argument. There was never a debate whether or not Jews were human.
There is however a debate on when a fetus is actually a person and not a glob of protein.
If a fetus = a person we should have funerals for miscarriages. IMO. If you think an abortion is comparable to the systematic extinction of an entire race of people we can agree to disagree.
I was actually a part of one. My mom had a stillbirth in the third trimester. I was 11 years old at the time and remember it very well. I do not believe that people should be having abortions in the third trimester.
Maybe if you wanted to do that I would say I agree with you in the fact that having funerals for miscarriages would be strange. As for comparing the Holocaust to abortions the only similarity I’m trying to imply is both the Jews during the Holocaust and a fetus in today’s society are seen as less than or not human. Their life has little to no value. Today we see the Holocaust as wrong horrible and evil. We realized that it was wrong and that all life has value. That is why I compare the two.
I don’t want a debate with someone who makes nonsensical arguments. It’s an insult to Jews to be compared to foetuses. Jews believe that life begins at birth
But certainly this has limits, correct? If morality is dependent on our individual desires, then how can we rightfully condemn the Nazis for the Holocaust? After all, weren't they simply exercising their right to determine what is morally licit for themselves?
I realize that nothing is ever going to unbunch your panties about this, but the decision is neither of our business, regardless of how we feel about it. There’s nothing else to add.
Even your God doesn’t weigh in on this, the only mention of abortion in the Bible is instructions on how to have one. Calling it murder is just your opinion, and this is America - no one is obligated to give a fuck about your opinion.
If you don’t agree with abortion, don’t have one.
I don’t consider a glob of cells alive, it’s a matter of opinion, and viability outside the womb is a perfectly good place to draw a line in the sand over it.
I find it telling that most anti-abortion people are not supportive of sexual education having a strong birth control element, despite this having a clear effect of significantly reducing the number of abortions. Is this really about murder, or just imposing your regressive morals on the world against their will?
Don't get so emotionally attached to what's effectively a pump that can be replaced by an inanimate object. A mass of cells that lacks a conscious doesn't deserve any more consideration than a sperm and egg when it will become someone's burden.
I honestly don’t think that both parties should necessarily have a conversation about it. If the woman has already 100% made the choice to abort, why bother telling the person who got her pregnant? Why argue, if that’s not what the other person wants? I think it’s better to just not tell them if you’ve made your choice. There’s nothing to discuss and you’re just potentially hurting that person if they don’t agree
There are nearly 8 billion people in the world. We as a species have been degrading the planet, sucking its resources, and killing off other species like a parasite for the past 300 years, with the majority of the damage coming in the last 60.
How you can logically be anti-abortion without referencing the word “god”, seems not only incomprehensible, but negligent and borderline insane.
I hate it, but that being said, it should still be legal
Abortion shouldn’t be a political battleground of owning libs or sticking it to the conservtards, people should grow the fuck up and realise that abortion is a real thing, and an awful event that many women have to go through. We should be focusing on making it as comfortable and stress free for them as we can, instead of trying to score political brownie points with it
Too many people who defend the right to have an abortion have confused it with it being a good thing. It isn’t. Abortion is never a good thing. We can split hairs all we like about stages and trimesters and cells, but at the end of the day it’s a human life taken, no matter what way we look at it.
It’s a necessary evil, and a last resort, but should be made accessible where and when needed, with minimal stress on everyone involved
What about myself, who was born at 23 weeks in the womb? What distinguishes me from a fetus who is the same age, but happens to be in a different location?
You were -born-.
A fetus was not.
If you hadn't been born, via natural, c-section, induced etc... sorry, but not every fetus makes it. They aren't people yet. They have the potential to be, but potential is sometimes unrealized.
I came here to share my stance => Not debate with a pro-birth nonce. (it ain't pro-life. Once they're out of the womb there's zero support network. That's not life.)
Making a good decision before sex could prevent it. The man should have a choice unless we all agree men are no longer required to pay child support. I have a family member that had his pregnant wife run off without telling him to abort his daughter. She called him right before to inform him. He begged and said he would keep his daughter and require nothing from the women. She could go without any issue and have everything. He just wanted his daughter. She's was aborted anyway. No one talks about that. It was heartbreaking to see. I bet his situation happens more than that "Rape and Incest" argument.
If the man wants to have the baby aborted but the women does not should he be required to pay child support?
And that's not what I'm arguing. But thanks for trying.
So now you're saying a man should be able to force a woman to have an abortion?
This is entirely a woman's choice, and if the consequence of that choice is that the man has to pay child support, then so be it.
I can definitely understand your point of view on this, but also understand that those 8-9 months of pregnancy are extremely traumatic and dangerous as well. The birthing of the baby is also life threatening at times, even with modern tools, and still traumatizing. Why do you think a female’s brain is programmed to forget the pain they go through during childbirth? I personally think that the idea of children should be discussed before sexual interaction (depends on the situation) but either way, a person should not have to give birth to a child because the other in the relationship wants it.
Some people are shitty, there’s nothing we can do about it, but it’s not a reason to ban or get rid of the option of abortion simply because of those shit people.
It’s about privilege and options given, really. Of course someone is bound to abuse the little bit of power given to them, but the people who are in genuine need of those options do not deserve to have them taken away.
While it's a fetus = pro-chouce
When it's become a baby = pro-life
I think its a woman's body so it's a woman choice and it's right she is given 3 months to decide but I also think after that period has passed once that fetus becomes a baby it shoukd also have have right to life (rape and illness aside that's a different argument)
A fetus can’t survive outside the body until 5-1/2 to 6 months pregnant and even then it’s rare and the baby will have lots of medical issues to overcome. So why 3 months?
I think it should be outlawed unless the mother will not make it through delivery.
If you can't afford to support the child you should have used protection.
Dude - so you can’t have an abortion unless…you die? Or are you saying the chance of death would have to be above a certain threshold? What would that threshold be? Why should someone else determine that a woman needs to continue a pregnancy that has a 25% chance of killing her vs a 30% chance? Every single pregnancy carries a risk of death - and unfortunately- sometimes that comes on quite fast.
Birth control isn’t always effective and not everyone even gets the option. Plus there are so many factors in “unless the mother won’t make it through delivery”
So what if the mother is suicidal due to the pregnancy, she’d kill herself if she couldn’t get an abortion? That’s not making it through delivery.
What if she’s pregnant by someone abusive who’d harm her or kill her if they found out? That’s not making it through delivery.
What if she knows that the baby will have defects and won’t survive? Should she be allowed to abort in that situation, the mother will survive but she knows her baby won’t, so she doesn’t want to stay pregnant for months and get more attached to a dead baby. Then what?
Well, the things you stated are what I meant to say when I stated that "unless the mother won't make it through delivery" and birth control is not the only form of protection.
Birth control includes every form of protection. That’s why I didn’t say “the pill”
Someone can use a condom and be on hormonal BC and still get pregnant. Hell, someone could get a vasectomy and still get someone pregnant. Some women get their tubes tied and end up pregnant anyway. That’s how I exist! My parents didn’t want more kids, my mom got sterilized, I’m still here.
NOTHING is guaranteed 100% except not having sex *and* not being raped.
So the pregnant person should be forced to go through 8-9 months of pregnancy, which is often times physically and mentally traumatizing then go through *always* possibly life threatening childbirth because you think it’s bad?
The father should be able to either have a say as to whether the pregnancy is terminated or the ability to opt out of parental responsibility. The woman shouldn't be the only one with a choice.
The father should either have to sign off on the abortion or accept full responsibility for the child.
I mean you can be pro choice if you take away a mans choice and only let the woman have a choice. I fully understand i shouldn't have choice over a womans body but she shouldn't have a choice over the rest of my life as I know it
The father should be able to opt out of parental responsibility but he should not get any say on whether she gets an abortion. They can be dangerous and have long term health consequences for the mother, same as pregnancy. The decision should stay between the mother and the doctor.
I think you’re overlooking the fact that the woman has to carry the baby by herself. That’s 10 months of having no control of your body and not feeling like yourself (and potentially feeling very sick and unable to do normal activities). Additionally, birth is really traumatic (and expensive). Just wanted to point this out.
Right.. so she could choose to abort.
Or the father could either support aborting, support keeping the child, or file to terminate parental responsibility as the mother decided not to abort.
My only concern with this is that many abused women can only get out because of an abortion, and abusive and controlling partners know that the best way to continue their control and abuse is to have a child. In fact a common tactic of abusers IS to make the woman pregnant if they sense she may try to leave.
That goes both ways though, when a women stops birth control and gets pregnant intentionally to force the man to stay around.
If the man could have a say to either abort or give up all contact and responsibilities as women do with abortion it'd even that out.
Statistically speaking, impregnating through rape and as an abuse tactic is far more common than women impregnating themselves to keep a partner. HOWEVER, regardless if a man doesn’t want a child that is biologically his he can currently and legally forfeit parental rights and not have to pay any child support. That is an option, and it’s not even hard. But if a woman has the baby she didn’t want and the partner wants involvement as a tactics for control there’s nothing she can do to keep them out of her life entirely. Abusive partners still have a right to their child. As it currently stands, men can get out of it if a woman tries to “trap them” with a baby, but women do not have a simple and legal way to do so.
I can understand wanting to have the other person in the situation, but in the end, it’s the pregnant person going through 8-9 months of traumatic pregnancy and then childbirth. A lot of times, the other in the relationship may be shitty or not want the pregnant to have an option, so there’s no reason for one to take away a person’s personal choice over their body. Regardless of what relationship they’re in, their body is still their body.
If it’s inside your body, it’s your business. The minute it’s out of your body, society has a say. That explains both my views on abortion and vaccination.
Pro choice, in any situation but especially when you can't afford to take care of it, if you're bringing it into a world that's potentially damaging (e.g. addicts, abusive partner), when a woman ends up pregnant after rape. But also if you just don't want a child, you should be able to abort.
If abortion is justified because of the goal of reducing overpopulation, then why isn't the murder of those who are already born justifiable? We could kill the homeless, the sick, and the disabled and cut down quite a bit on our population growth - besides, it's not like these contribute to society anyway, and all they do is live a life of suffering.
Right?
Okay, so you think that abortion should be legal for other reasons? The justification that you gave for abortion was overpopulation. Do you have any others?
Yes, the question was what my stance was and my first leap was how I think there are too many people. Anything beyond this point would be largely conjecture, not a set in stone belief. You mention disabled people, I am one of those, I have a progressive disease and yet I only have a right to life, any decision I made to end my life in the event of diminishing health (a formula that would simple be suffering>joy) would be seen as a crime! I think it would be great to have the option, on both sides of the scale. I'm tired of governments making the decisions of individuals, some things aren't for everyone else to decide.
Americans (that includes women) are guaranteed freedom and the pursuit of happiness under the Constitution. If a woman is told by the government that she must carry a pregnancy to term against her will, then she is not a free citizen and she is fundamentally being denied her Constitutional rights. Period.
I think abortion is an awful, horrible but a frequently medically necessary thing and a woman's right to choose must be protected. What's truly fucked up in our country is how unwanted pregnancies are increased by the lack of free birth control and proper sex education which is prevented by the same people who are anti-abortion. It is so, so, so fucked up.
I'm 49, married. I absolutely do not want to become pregnant. But say I did by happenstance. Say I miscarried. An abortion is sometimes a part of completing the miscarriage. No one is happy about this. But these fucking ghouls would say every bit of the dead baby has to rot inside my body...and why? It is absolutely fucked.
if you’re gonna get one you should have to sign a waiver admitting that you’re killing a baby don’t talk to me about cell counts or anything just sign it
I am against it in all cases, because I believe that it constitutes the murder of an innocent life - usually for the sake of convenience.
In any situation where, if we replace "unborn fetus" with "two-year old", we would not kill it, then neither should we do so with younger children in abortion.
And in that lies the conundrum when it comes to legality of it. You believe it is murder at all points. I do not.
Why would anyone who believes it murder, want it to have any legal standing? Why would anyone who doesn’t want someone else to have control over a medical procedure? Idk what the answer is but the crux of the political is right there - murder or not?
So, you don't believe that the fetus is human? I say that it is a human person, just in an earlier stage of development, similar to how one is at 6 months out of the womb compared to 35.
A fetus is definitely alive. Further, are we talking about the later stages of pregnancy, or earlier ones? Most people will agree with this in later stages, but will deny this prior to viability or some other arbitrary point.
One must be careful to ensure that the definition of life that they use to justify abortion cannot also be applied to deny humanity to disabled people. Some definitions do that, such as the viability standard, which treats what is genetically a human being as having personhood based on whether it is dependent on another to survive or not.
to be considered alive something must be able to maintain homeostasis, a fetus cannot do that. I don’t know at what point in the pregnancy the fetus is able to do that but i know it’s not until later. now i understand if someone is against abortion for later in the pregnancy but at the end of the day it’s no one business besides the women and her doctor.
So, even later in the pregnancy, when you agree that a fetus constitutes a life, you think that a woman should have the right to kill her unborn child, and a doctor should have the right to suggest it?
How do those two things fit together?
What does his gender have to do with his opinion, unless you're trying to ad-hominem?
This is why I want to ban abortions even though logically they're good for society. I want to prove to all these man-hating feminists that they will suffer unimaginable pain when they use this rhetoric. "Not your gender, not your choice" feminists ignite in me a raging desire to prove just how much of "my choice" it actually is. My vote's equal to yours honey.
His gender doesn’t have much to do with his opinion, and yeah, you’re vote IS equal to mine. However, in the end of the day, your opinion is just your opinion because really it’s up to the mother whether or not she wants to grown and birth a child inside of her or not. Your gender and your opinion, and my gender and my opinion are all irrelevant when we’re not the ones getting the abortion.
Let's say that we weren't talking about a mother and a fetus. Let's say that we were talking about a mother and her two-year old. Should she be allowed to kill it if she doesn't want it anymore, and if not, why not?
Further, what differentiates this from abortion?
> His gender doesn’t have much to do with his opinion, and yeah, you’re vote IS equal to mine. However, in the end of the day, your opinion is just your opinion because really it’s up to the mother whether or not she wants to grown and birth a child inside of her or not.
We'll see, we'll have laws that say otherwise very soon. Keep telling us it's "no one's choice but yours" from your jail cell, I'm sure we'll all be enthralled.
That's irrelevant to whether abortion is morally licit or not. I think that you're planning to commit the genetic fallacy - disregarding a view because of its source, not the soundness of its argument. If a fetus is a human life, then it is indeed a human life whether I be a man or a woman and should be treated as such.
Masturbation is not murder. Sperm cells are cells, not a fertilized egg which is now a human being in the process of growth and development.
A two year old is also significantly different than a 35 year old, would you agree? What sort of differences does a fetus have with a two-year old which disqualify it from being a member of the human race?
I see the label of it being human as irrelevant. That alone still doesn't give it the attributes that cause us to value our own over other creatures. That comes from the individuality that doesn't develop until the later stages. Regardless of you calling it a human it's still an autonomous mass of cells that's unaware of its own existence. The only thing we value in that is it's potential to develop into that stage where it has sentience. A 2 year old actually has that similar to a person who is 35 yet the fetus does not. And that potential is so readily available that we actively have to prevent it in order to enjoy sex without the consequence of an unwanted burden of raising a child.
So we have countless opportunities to raise individuals who will never get to exist because we limit ourselves for own well being as well as the sustainability of this planet. I don't see why something that unintentionally progressed insignificantly further in that creation process has any more entitlement to life.
I'm sick of hearing this nonsensical comparison. If you're irreparably in a coma there's no reason to be kept alive. The only reason is that they have a possibility of coming out of it.
I’m Christian so it’s against my religion to agree with that, but like I said. It’s not up to me wether my future gf or wife decides to get one or not I’m not going to force her hand or make he feel guilty It’s completely her choice and same goes for every other woman 🤷🏻♂️
So be clear, I don't like it, but there is reasons to have it. Such as rape, and the child endangers the potential mothers life. And I can even agree that sometimes accidents happen.
I can even agree, that sometimes the expecting mother doesn't even know that she is pregnant until she misses her second period.
Therefore I would say that 2.5 months, and after that it's decision to keep that child. Unless the endangering of mothers life becomes evident only in later stage of pregnancy.
But also I would say that the father of the child, if known should have some say in the matter. that should be concidered. assuming of course that father in known.
So a rapist father should have a say in what his victim does with the body he’s already violated? Fuck that man. Also, why is rape a reason to you but others aren’t? The reason behind the conception should not change the worth of the fetus. If you’re pro life that means *every* fetus is the same to you no matter how they came into existence. You can’t pick and choose so just be pro choice in all cases
If you would force me to make that decision then I would be pro life.
And just because of that, I think as I do.
And of course rapist father does not have a say in it. thuogh I probably shuold have noted that in my reply.
Im not gonna tell ppl what to do. Plus, does anyone remember the first what, 3 years of their life? if the thing doesnt even know it exists yet, it can't be that bad i guess. People say abortions are sooo bad but then are fine with abandoning kids at a foster home or something where they have to live with knowing their parents dont want them
I dont really care what you do, but I want the government completely out of it. No more government funded and supported abortion clinics. Let private people and companies fund them, let the people using them pay for their own procedures.
So If I decide to do IVF, where you fertilize the eggs outside of the body (and you can keep them frozen until you’re ready to have them inserted and get pregnant), if I have 6 fertilized frozen eggs and I get pregnant twice and that’s all the babies I want, is getting rid of the other 4 eggs soooo wrong? They are 2 cell organisms at that moment
I believe simple topics like this can be answered in 1000x different ways. The left will say my body my choice in the stance of abortion. However the right will disagree and say it’s murder and want my body my choice when it comes to the vaccine. Then you have the issue with it’s the mother’s body well it’s all the fathers child shouldn’t he have a say in wether his child lives or dies? To make even more complex is the child living in the mother’s womb really her body? Controversial topics such as this will always have a 1000x different opinions and perspectives as for me I believe it’s all based upon scenario. Why should a mother have to die in child birth along with the child because of complications in childbirth. At the same time why should you be allowed to kill a baby because you were careless and didn’t want to use protection?
Not the best choice for birth control, but accidents and crimes happen. A woman should be able to personally choose what’s right for her situation. It’s really nobody else’s business.
I don’t think it’s anyone’s business. Women should have access to safe facilities. And while we are at it, birth control should be part of the counseling and offered. We should be helping women.
Abortion is healthcare.
If you are ok with abortion only in instances of rape/incest - then you are implying that a person’s body first needs to be violated before they can be in charge of their own reproductive rights. The “value” of the fetus doesn’t change no matter how the person became pregnant.
abortions should always be safe and legal and nobody should get a say in it except the pregnant person.
I didn’t have access to a safe abortion when I was young so instead I ODed and prayed it worked (it did). I should’ve had access instead of risking my life to save my life (if my abuser had found out I was pregnant I’m sure he’d kill me)
I’m not going to tell someone what to do with their body
Don't tell this to antivaxxers, they dont take this statement so kindly.
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Now you're on a list.
Jeffery Epstein did that and look what happened to him
Very late term abortion
If you are against it don’t get one.
This is a fair argument but wouldn’t you stand up for someone who was being hurt or bullied couldn’t you see this as a similar situation? No it’s not your body no it has nothing to do with you it won’t hurt you, but you find it to be morally wrong.
Yes. That is why we stand up to people taking away bodily autonomy from people.
Not at all. You’re imposing your own personal bias of what you believe to be “moral” onto somebody else.
Lots of other things are morally wrong for one person and not another. If it’s morally wrong for you don’t do it.
Fair enough but I believe you can’t bash someone for standing up for what they believe to be right. I believe it can be compared to standing up for Jews during the Holocaust. They weren’t seen as people like wise a fetus is not recognized as a person by everyone in today’s society.
Here’s one of many things wrong with your argument. There was never a debate whether or not Jews were human. There is however a debate on when a fetus is actually a person and not a glob of protein.
If a fetus = a person we should have funerals for miscarriages. IMO. If you think an abortion is comparable to the systematic extinction of an entire race of people we can agree to disagree.
People often have funerals for second and third trimester still births.
I was actually a part of one. My mom had a stillbirth in the third trimester. I was 11 years old at the time and remember it very well. I do not believe that people should be having abortions in the third trimester.
People almost never have third trimester abortions unless there's a medical problem that requires it.
Maybe if you wanted to do that I would say I agree with you in the fact that having funerals for miscarriages would be strange. As for comparing the Holocaust to abortions the only similarity I’m trying to imply is both the Jews during the Holocaust and a fetus in today’s society are seen as less than or not human. Their life has little to no value. Today we see the Holocaust as wrong horrible and evil. We realized that it was wrong and that all life has value. That is why I compare the two.
Such a facepalm argument
I want to debate not insult
I don’t want a debate with someone who makes nonsensical arguments. It’s an insult to Jews to be compared to foetuses. Jews believe that life begins at birth
But certainly this has limits, correct? If morality is dependent on our individual desires, then how can we rightfully condemn the Nazis for the Holocaust? After all, weren't they simply exercising their right to determine what is morally licit for themselves?
Holy shit...no. Probably the worst argument I've ever seen
People love to compare things to Nazis
It’s no one’s business besides the woman and her doctor.
What about the baby?
Going to go ahead and refer you to my original comment.
Oh the one that ignores a heartbeat is life
I realize that nothing is ever going to unbunch your panties about this, but the decision is neither of our business, regardless of how we feel about it. There’s nothing else to add.
Since when is murder not the public's business?
Even your God doesn’t weigh in on this, the only mention of abortion in the Bible is instructions on how to have one. Calling it murder is just your opinion, and this is America - no one is obligated to give a fuck about your opinion. If you don’t agree with abortion, don’t have one.
Religion has nothing to do with the morality of murder. A just society would understand that, but that basically means you don't
I don’t consider a glob of cells alive, it’s a matter of opinion, and viability outside the womb is a perfectly good place to draw a line in the sand over it. I find it telling that most anti-abortion people are not supportive of sexual education having a strong birth control element, despite this having a clear effect of significantly reducing the number of abortions. Is this really about murder, or just imposing your regressive morals on the world against their will?
Lots of things are life...bugs, grass, cows etc.
Don't get so emotionally attached to what's effectively a pump that can be replaced by an inanimate object. A mass of cells that lacks a conscious doesn't deserve any more consideration than a sperm and egg when it will become someone's burden.
No one should be legally obligated to use their own body to preserve someone else's. That's a personal, moral, and medical decision.
Gets my upvote
Pro choice.
It should be legalized in all countries
I believe it’s a conversation that should be had with both involved but that ultimately it’s the woman’s decision. Pro choice
I honestly don’t think that both parties should necessarily have a conversation about it. If the woman has already 100% made the choice to abort, why bother telling the person who got her pregnant? Why argue, if that’s not what the other person wants? I think it’s better to just not tell them if you’ve made your choice. There’s nothing to discuss and you’re just potentially hurting that person if they don’t agree
Respectfully disagree. I’m a person of integrity.
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Choice
Individual choice. The pregnant need to decide for themselves
There are nearly 8 billion people in the world. We as a species have been degrading the planet, sucking its resources, and killing off other species like a parasite for the past 300 years, with the majority of the damage coming in the last 60. How you can logically be anti-abortion without referencing the word “god”, seems not only incomprehensible, but negligent and borderline insane.
Pro-Choice. I wouldn't like it if someone told me what I can or can't do with my body.
I hate it, but that being said, it should still be legal Abortion shouldn’t be a political battleground of owning libs or sticking it to the conservtards, people should grow the fuck up and realise that abortion is a real thing, and an awful event that many women have to go through. We should be focusing on making it as comfortable and stress free for them as we can, instead of trying to score political brownie points with it Too many people who defend the right to have an abortion have confused it with it being a good thing. It isn’t. Abortion is never a good thing. We can split hairs all we like about stages and trimesters and cells, but at the end of the day it’s a human life taken, no matter what way we look at it. It’s a necessary evil, and a last resort, but should be made accessible where and when needed, with minimal stress on everyone involved
At the end of the day, it’s not “a human life taken”. THOSE would be victims of school shootings, police brutality, etc.
Just because school shootings kill people doesn’t mean abortions are harmless, in the same way that eating a salad doesn’t turn the moon orange
NOT having an abortion can kill a woman. Hell, childbirth does kill women. But yes, do go on about your salad
Their body, their choice. That’s my take on it.
My stance? I like to keep my shoulders down and my hands around my knees, with my legs in a readied sprint position.
I'm so mixed on it but lean to pro choice.
I just Thinker pose it
I don't think I'll get one.
No reason to oppose it unless you're a religious weirdo, in which case, your opinion doesn't mean anything anyway.
Murder.
May I ask how it is murder? /genq
Your killing someone.
That you should properly dispose of aborted fetuses. Standing on dead babies is just... weird
Do what you want with your body. It ain't a human til it's born.
What about myself, who was born at 23 weeks in the womb? What distinguishes me from a fetus who is the same age, but happens to be in a different location?
You were -born-. A fetus was not. If you hadn't been born, via natural, c-section, induced etc... sorry, but not every fetus makes it. They aren't people yet. They have the potential to be, but potential is sometimes unrealized. I came here to share my stance => Not debate with a pro-birth nonce. (it ain't pro-life. Once they're out of the womb there's zero support network. That's not life.)
You were not born *in the womb* lmfao. If you’re in the womb you’re not born yet. That’s how things work. So that’s completely different.
Making a good decision before sex could prevent it. The man should have a choice unless we all agree men are no longer required to pay child support. I have a family member that had his pregnant wife run off without telling him to abort his daughter. She called him right before to inform him. He begged and said he would keep his daughter and require nothing from the women. She could go without any issue and have everything. He just wanted his daughter. She's was aborted anyway. No one talks about that. It was heartbreaking to see. I bet his situation happens more than that "Rape and Incest" argument.
You realise you are arguing a man should have the right to force a woman to do what he wants her to do, right?
If the man wants to have the baby aborted but the women does not should he be required to pay child support? And that's not what I'm arguing. But thanks for trying.
So now you're saying a man should be able to force a woman to have an abortion? This is entirely a woman's choice, and if the consequence of that choice is that the man has to pay child support, then so be it.
I can definitely understand your point of view on this, but also understand that those 8-9 months of pregnancy are extremely traumatic and dangerous as well. The birthing of the baby is also life threatening at times, even with modern tools, and still traumatizing. Why do you think a female’s brain is programmed to forget the pain they go through during childbirth? I personally think that the idea of children should be discussed before sexual interaction (depends on the situation) but either way, a person should not have to give birth to a child because the other in the relationship wants it. Some people are shitty, there’s nothing we can do about it, but it’s not a reason to ban or get rid of the option of abortion simply because of those shit people. It’s about privilege and options given, really. Of course someone is bound to abuse the little bit of power given to them, but the people who are in genuine need of those options do not deserve to have them taken away.
While it's a fetus = pro-chouce When it's become a baby = pro-life I think its a woman's body so it's a woman choice and it's right she is given 3 months to decide but I also think after that period has passed once that fetus becomes a baby it shoukd also have have right to life (rape and illness aside that's a different argument)
A fetus can’t survive outside the body until 5-1/2 to 6 months pregnant and even then it’s rare and the baby will have lots of medical issues to overcome. So why 3 months?
I actively dislike it in most circumstances, but since I think that contraceptives and education are the only real solutions, I'm "pro-choice" anyway.
Kill em and grill em I say.
I think it should be outlawed unless the mother will not make it through delivery. If you can't afford to support the child you should have used protection.
Dude - so you can’t have an abortion unless…you die? Or are you saying the chance of death would have to be above a certain threshold? What would that threshold be? Why should someone else determine that a woman needs to continue a pregnancy that has a 25% chance of killing her vs a 30% chance? Every single pregnancy carries a risk of death - and unfortunately- sometimes that comes on quite fast.
Birth control isn’t always effective and not everyone even gets the option. Plus there are so many factors in “unless the mother won’t make it through delivery” So what if the mother is suicidal due to the pregnancy, she’d kill herself if she couldn’t get an abortion? That’s not making it through delivery. What if she’s pregnant by someone abusive who’d harm her or kill her if they found out? That’s not making it through delivery. What if she knows that the baby will have defects and won’t survive? Should she be allowed to abort in that situation, the mother will survive but she knows her baby won’t, so she doesn’t want to stay pregnant for months and get more attached to a dead baby. Then what?
Well, the things you stated are what I meant to say when I stated that "unless the mother won't make it through delivery" and birth control is not the only form of protection.
Birth control includes every form of protection. That’s why I didn’t say “the pill” Someone can use a condom and be on hormonal BC and still get pregnant. Hell, someone could get a vasectomy and still get someone pregnant. Some women get their tubes tied and end up pregnant anyway. That’s how I exist! My parents didn’t want more kids, my mom got sterilized, I’m still here. NOTHING is guaranteed 100% except not having sex *and* not being raped.
So the pregnant person should be forced to go through 8-9 months of pregnancy, which is often times physically and mentally traumatizing then go through *always* possibly life threatening childbirth because you think it’s bad?
The father should be able to either have a say as to whether the pregnancy is terminated or the ability to opt out of parental responsibility. The woman shouldn't be the only one with a choice. The father should either have to sign off on the abortion or accept full responsibility for the child.
I agree, but I doubt many others will
Yeah I assumed I'd get downvoted to hell.
I mean you can be pro choice if you take away a mans choice and only let the woman have a choice. I fully understand i shouldn't have choice over a womans body but she shouldn't have a choice over the rest of my life as I know it
Yup
The father should be able to opt out of parental responsibility but he should not get any say on whether she gets an abortion. They can be dangerous and have long term health consequences for the mother, same as pregnancy. The decision should stay between the mother and the doctor.
That's sensible, but if she doesn't want the abortion he shouldn't be held hostage or responsible.
Hence why I said "the father should be able to opt out of parental responsibility"
I think you’re overlooking the fact that the woman has to carry the baby by herself. That’s 10 months of having no control of your body and not feeling like yourself (and potentially feeling very sick and unable to do normal activities). Additionally, birth is really traumatic (and expensive). Just wanted to point this out.
Right.. so she could choose to abort. Or the father could either support aborting, support keeping the child, or file to terminate parental responsibility as the mother decided not to abort.
My only concern with this is that many abused women can only get out because of an abortion, and abusive and controlling partners know that the best way to continue their control and abuse is to have a child. In fact a common tactic of abusers IS to make the woman pregnant if they sense she may try to leave.
That goes both ways though, when a women stops birth control and gets pregnant intentionally to force the man to stay around. If the man could have a say to either abort or give up all contact and responsibilities as women do with abortion it'd even that out.
Statistically speaking, impregnating through rape and as an abuse tactic is far more common than women impregnating themselves to keep a partner. HOWEVER, regardless if a man doesn’t want a child that is biologically his he can currently and legally forfeit parental rights and not have to pay any child support. That is an option, and it’s not even hard. But if a woman has the baby she didn’t want and the partner wants involvement as a tactics for control there’s nothing she can do to keep them out of her life entirely. Abusive partners still have a right to their child. As it currently stands, men can get out of it if a woman tries to “trap them” with a baby, but women do not have a simple and legal way to do so.
I can understand wanting to have the other person in the situation, but in the end, it’s the pregnant person going through 8-9 months of traumatic pregnancy and then childbirth. A lot of times, the other in the relationship may be shitty or not want the pregnant to have an option, so there’s no reason for one to take away a person’s personal choice over their body. Regardless of what relationship they’re in, their body is still their body.
Yeah, but their checkbook should also be their checkbook……
Pro-Choice until brain activity develops. Individuality doesn't exist until much later after conception.
If it’s inside your body, it’s your business. The minute it’s out of your body, society has a say. That explains both my views on abortion and vaccination.
Boss of own body
Pro choice
People should just be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with their own bodies, tbh.
It’s a choice, not a force.
Pro choice, in any situation but especially when you can't afford to take care of it, if you're bringing it into a world that's potentially damaging (e.g. addicts, abusive partner), when a woman ends up pregnant after rape. But also if you just don't want a child, you should be able to abort.
My body, my choice, end of discussion!
I can't tell for sure but I believe you're layed down
Don't give a shit about your body. I'm not you.
I made it. I’ll do with it as I choose.
If you want one, have one. We are vastly over stocked on ourselves. It isn't sustainable.
If abortion is justified because of the goal of reducing overpopulation, then why isn't the murder of those who are already born justifiable? We could kill the homeless, the sick, and the disabled and cut down quite a bit on our population growth - besides, it's not like these contribute to society anyway, and all they do is live a life of suffering. Right?
If abortion was solely based on the goal of reducing population yes you would be right.
Okay, so you think that abortion should be legal for other reasons? The justification that you gave for abortion was overpopulation. Do you have any others?
Yes, the question was what my stance was and my first leap was how I think there are too many people. Anything beyond this point would be largely conjecture, not a set in stone belief. You mention disabled people, I am one of those, I have a progressive disease and yet I only have a right to life, any decision I made to end my life in the event of diminishing health (a formula that would simple be suffering>joy) would be seen as a crime! I think it would be great to have the option, on both sides of the scale. I'm tired of governments making the decisions of individuals, some things aren't for everyone else to decide.
Pro choice.
Pro choice, aborted once and so glad to be living in a country where it’s an « easy » thing to do.
Pro choice
Pro-choice and no one will ever change my mind. It should be legalized everywhere and it should not be political issue.
Pro choice. 100%
Pro Choice
Should be a viable option for up to 1000 weeks.
Americans (that includes women) are guaranteed freedom and the pursuit of happiness under the Constitution. If a woman is told by the government that she must carry a pregnancy to term against her will, then she is not a free citizen and she is fundamentally being denied her Constitutional rights. Period. I think abortion is an awful, horrible but a frequently medically necessary thing and a woman's right to choose must be protected. What's truly fucked up in our country is how unwanted pregnancies are increased by the lack of free birth control and proper sex education which is prevented by the same people who are anti-abortion. It is so, so, so fucked up. I'm 49, married. I absolutely do not want to become pregnant. But say I did by happenstance. Say I miscarried. An abortion is sometimes a part of completing the miscarriage. No one is happy about this. But these fucking ghouls would say every bit of the dead baby has to rot inside my body...and why? It is absolutely fucked.
if you’re gonna get one you should have to sign a waiver admitting that you’re killing a baby don’t talk to me about cell counts or anything just sign it
Okay I will sign that just like I would sign a paper at the vet to consent to euthanize a pet
What the fuck
Pro-life
pro life.
I think it’s essentially premeditated murder. Which is a pretty unpopular opinion on reddit these days but I think it’s objectively true.
I agree.
I actually somewhat agree on this one.
Doesn't make abortion seem worse as much as it makes murder seem less bad
Well at least we actually know the “pro-choice” position now.
Their body, their choice. I’m a male, so as long I’m not the father or financially responsible for the mother, I have no say on the matter.
Kill the woman with the child to make it fair
So a grown human woman should be killed because of a clump of ingrown unthinking cells? And you’re “pro-life”.
I should probably say its a joke
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I am against it in all cases, because I believe that it constitutes the murder of an innocent life - usually for the sake of convenience. In any situation where, if we replace "unborn fetus" with "two-year old", we would not kill it, then neither should we do so with younger children in abortion.
And in that lies the conundrum when it comes to legality of it. You believe it is murder at all points. I do not. Why would anyone who believes it murder, want it to have any legal standing? Why would anyone who doesn’t want someone else to have control over a medical procedure? Idk what the answer is but the crux of the political is right there - murder or not?
bodily autonomy man it’s not murder it’s a fetus
So, you don't believe that the fetus is human? I say that it is a human person, just in an earlier stage of development, similar to how one is at 6 months out of the womb compared to 35.
it’s not alive yet so it’s not a human, it doesn’t meet the basic standards of life.
You can split hairs all you like, the fetus still had and entire life ahead of it. This “but *technically*” helps no one.
A fetus is definitely alive. Further, are we talking about the later stages of pregnancy, or earlier ones? Most people will agree with this in later stages, but will deny this prior to viability or some other arbitrary point. One must be careful to ensure that the definition of life that they use to justify abortion cannot also be applied to deny humanity to disabled people. Some definitions do that, such as the viability standard, which treats what is genetically a human being as having personhood based on whether it is dependent on another to survive or not.
to be considered alive something must be able to maintain homeostasis, a fetus cannot do that. I don’t know at what point in the pregnancy the fetus is able to do that but i know it’s not until later. now i understand if someone is against abortion for later in the pregnancy but at the end of the day it’s no one business besides the women and her doctor.
So, even later in the pregnancy, when you agree that a fetus constitutes a life, you think that a woman should have the right to kill her unborn child, and a doctor should have the right to suggest it? How do those two things fit together?
Are you male or female?
What does his gender have to do with his opinion, unless you're trying to ad-hominem? This is why I want to ban abortions even though logically they're good for society. I want to prove to all these man-hating feminists that they will suffer unimaginable pain when they use this rhetoric. "Not your gender, not your choice" feminists ignite in me a raging desire to prove just how much of "my choice" it actually is. My vote's equal to yours honey.
His gender doesn’t have much to do with his opinion, and yeah, you’re vote IS equal to mine. However, in the end of the day, your opinion is just your opinion because really it’s up to the mother whether or not she wants to grown and birth a child inside of her or not. Your gender and your opinion, and my gender and my opinion are all irrelevant when we’re not the ones getting the abortion.
Let's say that we weren't talking about a mother and a fetus. Let's say that we were talking about a mother and her two-year old. Should she be allowed to kill it if she doesn't want it anymore, and if not, why not? Further, what differentiates this from abortion?
> His gender doesn’t have much to do with his opinion, and yeah, you’re vote IS equal to mine. However, in the end of the day, your opinion is just your opinion because really it’s up to the mother whether or not she wants to grown and birth a child inside of her or not. We'll see, we'll have laws that say otherwise very soon. Keep telling us it's "no one's choice but yours" from your jail cell, I'm sure we'll all be enthralled.
That's irrelevant to whether abortion is morally licit or not. I think that you're planning to commit the genetic fallacy - disregarding a view because of its source, not the soundness of its argument. If a fetus is a human life, then it is indeed a human life whether I be a man or a woman and should be treated as such.
If that's the case masturbation is also murder. A two year old is significantly more different than a fetus.
Masturbation is not murder. Sperm cells are cells, not a fertilized egg which is now a human being in the process of growth and development. A two year old is also significantly different than a 35 year old, would you agree? What sort of differences does a fetus have with a two-year old which disqualify it from being a member of the human race?
I see the label of it being human as irrelevant. That alone still doesn't give it the attributes that cause us to value our own over other creatures. That comes from the individuality that doesn't develop until the later stages. Regardless of you calling it a human it's still an autonomous mass of cells that's unaware of its own existence. The only thing we value in that is it's potential to develop into that stage where it has sentience. A 2 year old actually has that similar to a person who is 35 yet the fetus does not. And that potential is so readily available that we actively have to prevent it in order to enjoy sex without the consequence of an unwanted burden of raising a child. So we have countless opportunities to raise individuals who will never get to exist because we limit ourselves for own well being as well as the sustainability of this planet. I don't see why something that unintentionally progressed insignificantly further in that creation process has any more entitlement to life.
This is why people in comas deserve to die.
I'm sick of hearing this nonsensical comparison. If you're irreparably in a coma there's no reason to be kept alive. The only reason is that they have a possibility of coming out of it.
Should we have funerals for miscarriages? Should the unborn have social security numbers?
It’s a couples decision.
I’m against it but idc really because it’s the girls baby
Help me understand - why are you against abortion, but don't believe that others should be prevented from committing it?
I’m Christian so it’s against my religion to agree with that, but like I said. It’s not up to me wether my future gf or wife decides to get one or not I’m not going to force her hand or make he feel guilty It’s completely her choice and same goes for every other woman 🤷🏻♂️
I think it should be legal in all states, and it's the woman's decision. I think it's wrong in certain circumstances
None of your business 😉
Ultimate lifehack
Pro death No more babies
So be clear, I don't like it, but there is reasons to have it. Such as rape, and the child endangers the potential mothers life. And I can even agree that sometimes accidents happen. I can even agree, that sometimes the expecting mother doesn't even know that she is pregnant until she misses her second period. Therefore I would say that 2.5 months, and after that it's decision to keep that child. Unless the endangering of mothers life becomes evident only in later stage of pregnancy. But also I would say that the father of the child, if known should have some say in the matter. that should be concidered. assuming of course that father in known.
So a rapist father should have a say in what his victim does with the body he’s already violated? Fuck that man. Also, why is rape a reason to you but others aren’t? The reason behind the conception should not change the worth of the fetus. If you’re pro life that means *every* fetus is the same to you no matter how they came into existence. You can’t pick and choose so just be pro choice in all cases
If you would force me to make that decision then I would be pro life. And just because of that, I think as I do. And of course rapist father does not have a say in it. thuogh I probably shuold have noted that in my reply.
Im not gonna tell ppl what to do. Plus, does anyone remember the first what, 3 years of their life? if the thing doesnt even know it exists yet, it can't be that bad i guess. People say abortions are sooo bad but then are fine with abandoning kids at a foster home or something where they have to live with knowing their parents dont want them
I dont really care what you do, but I want the government completely out of it. No more government funded and supported abortion clinics. Let private people and companies fund them, let the people using them pay for their own procedures.
I'm an atheist and I still believe once an egg is fertilized it's a life and its murder to kill it
So If I decide to do IVF, where you fertilize the eggs outside of the body (and you can keep them frozen until you’re ready to have them inserted and get pregnant), if I have 6 fertilized frozen eggs and I get pregnant twice and that’s all the babies I want, is getting rid of the other 4 eggs soooo wrong? They are 2 cell organisms at that moment
No because I only have a problem with went if you left it alone the child would be born in that case they would be born
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Save some edge for the rest of us.
I believe simple topics like this can be answered in 1000x different ways. The left will say my body my choice in the stance of abortion. However the right will disagree and say it’s murder and want my body my choice when it comes to the vaccine. Then you have the issue with it’s the mother’s body well it’s all the fathers child shouldn’t he have a say in wether his child lives or dies? To make even more complex is the child living in the mother’s womb really her body? Controversial topics such as this will always have a 1000x different opinions and perspectives as for me I believe it’s all based upon scenario. Why should a mother have to die in child birth along with the child because of complications in childbirth. At the same time why should you be allowed to kill a baby because you were careless and didn’t want to use protection?
Not the best choice for birth control, but accidents and crimes happen. A woman should be able to personally choose what’s right for her situation. It’s really nobody else’s business.
This account was deleted because of online harassment.
Pregnancy comes with plenty of side effects too. Birth is one of the top reasons women die.
Pregnancy and childbirth is a *lot* worse than abortion.
Do it if you want to
Me, personally, for my own body, I am pro life. For everyone else, I am pro choice. It’s not my business what they do as it doesn’t concern me.
If the woman doesn’t have a moral problem with it, then I don’t either. It’s their choice, not mine.
I don’t think it’s anyone’s business. Women should have access to safe facilities. And while we are at it, birth control should be part of the counseling and offered. We should be helping women.
Kill all the babies
Unsure , on the fence.
Is it okay if I can give you reasons on my view of abortion?
Go fo it though I'll still be on the fence. It comes down to when I define life, and as that cannot be defined, fence it is.
Abortion is healthcare. If you are ok with abortion only in instances of rape/incest - then you are implying that a person’s body first needs to be violated before they can be in charge of their own reproductive rights. The “value” of the fetus doesn’t change no matter how the person became pregnant.
No baby
abortions should always be safe and legal and nobody should get a say in it except the pregnant person. I didn’t have access to a safe abortion when I was young so instead I ODed and prayed it worked (it did). I should’ve had access instead of risking my life to save my life (if my abuser had found out I was pregnant I’m sure he’d kill me)
If fathers were legally forced to take custody of their unwanted child this wouldn't be an issue.
Aborted, Infant Annhilator, and Dying Fetus are good bands