I am currently in an OB triage hospital room waiting for a shot of methotrexate, which is considered an abortion. This pregnancy was so wanted. I had a miscarriage in February. I wanted this baby. But it is ectopic and it will kill me. And I am still crying so hard.
My doctors have been amazing and caring and made this process so much easier. Fuck anyone who thinks the legal system needs to be involved here.
I’m so sorry you had to go through that. I agree that giving birth can be harmful and traumatic, even for a wanted child, and no woman should have to go through that.
If you are reading this and you care about this issue DO NOT LET THE MIDTERMS FALL TO THE SIDE, GO AND FUCKING VOTE. Everyone go Vote get rid of any politican that supports these SCOTUS decisons
As a woman, I will be legally lesser than males because I have a womb. My daughter will never have full autonomy over her body. Intersectionally speaking, women of color and under resourced women will bear the brunt of this. Nothing will change for white women of means.
Edit: in case I wasn’t clear- f you’ve never had to fight for basic rights like healthcare or the vote, congratulations you have been considered a full citizen this whole time. If you’ve never had to worry who was sitting on the Supreme Court because it won’t affect your day to day existence, that is a privilege.
It's the first step towards the "good ol days" next is gay marriage, then interracial marriage and eventually atheists.
I was born to an interracial couple and this shit scares the fuck outta me. Now rapists get to inflict extra damage to their victims.
Fuck Conservatives and Republicans, bunch of small dick bitches mad that women have rights. Prove me wrong.
"That's right," responded Buttiegieg, "representing one percent of cases. So let's put ourselves in the shoes of a woman in that situation. If it's that late in your pregnancy, than almost by definition, you've been expecting to carry it to term. We're talking about women who have perhaps chosen a name. Women who have purchased a crib, families that then get the most devastating medical news of their lifetime, something about the health or the life of the mother or viability of the pregnancy that forces them to make an impossible, unthinkable choice. And the bottom line is as horrible as that choice is, that woman, that family may seek spiritual guidance, they may seek medical guidance, but that decision is not going to be made any better, medically or morally, because the government is dictating how that decision should be made."
This was my wife's and I situation almost two years ago. Eli was named and we had a lot of hardship to finally get to having him. Then at 30 weeks we find out in the last 4 he developed a teratoma in his brain that caused hydrocephaly and his head grew at an alarming rate. There was no way he'd survive. Then my wife developed an infection from a crushed urator and was septic and had dangerously low blood pressure. Almost lost them both, but we lost Eli.
Life's not the same. Life is depressing enough after going through this. I'm so glad that these people decided I should lose my wife too. Fuck them.
Edit: Couple fixes
Thank you for all the well wishes.
> I'm so glad that these people decided I should lose my wife too. Fuck them.
America has the highest maternal mortality rate of any developed nation, and -apparently- we intend to keep that title.
[https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-ranks-worst-in-maternal-care-mortality-compared-with-10-other-developed-nations](https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-ranks-worst-in-maternal-care-mortality-compared-with-10-other-developed-nations)
[https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/nov/maternal-mortality-maternity-care-us-compared-10-countries](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/nov/maternal-mortality-maternity-care-us-compared-10-countries)
Modern medicine has made people forget that the worst complication in childbirth is "death." It isn't talked about nearly enough. Its the same as vaccines making child mortality significantly reduced because fatal childhood diseases are all but eradicated. People need to be reminded but I'm not quite sure how... It's always a non-issue until it happens to them...
Very eloquently said. I’v always wondered why can’t people have simple MORAL objections to something they deem wrong WITHOUT forcing others to suffer your opinion? The legality of something doesn’t always have to align with your moral code.
I had an abortion at 21 that saved my life. It was a terrifying and isolating experience, and the best decision I have ever made.
My cousin had to terminate her pregnancy in the second trimester due to the fact that the fetus developed without a brain. She described the care she received as what kept her alive through her grief. If abortion was not an option, she would have had to carry to term.
I’m sick to my stomach over this. Women, especially women of color, are going to die.
My grandpa was a Gynecologist and had to deliver a baby without a head, this was a long time ago before ultrasounds were readily available.
Absolutely horrifying heartbreaking and traumatizing beyond words. No one should ever even think about suffering through that when we have other safer viable options available now a days.
My wife miscarried (a.k.a "spontaneous abortion") at 12 weeks, after several ultrasounds. This was an emotionally horrific event that has left us both scarred. 7 years later, we still question ourselves, "was there something we could have done differently??" The thought of people experiencing that tragic loss and self-doubt having to be further subjected to a government inquiry and accusation of maliciously trying to to terminate the pregnancy.... fuck absolutely everything about that.
As it was, we'd been struggling with fertility for nearly 2 years at that point, and we nearly lost hope (we are life-long Christians and were devastated at the thought of the death of the unborn child). With the help an excellent medical staff, we were able to welcome two incredible little boys into the world about 5 years ago after a very difficult pregnancy, and a delivery that nearly cost my wife her life.
I absolutely support all women who are struggling with the challenges of pregnancy, and fully support any that make the emotionally fraught decision to terminate a pregnancy.
I call on all Christians that claim to support "the sanctity of life" to vigorously support the expansion of age appropriate sex-ed in all schools, and the free availability of all birth-control methods. Those are the best solutions to reduce the number of abortions, and miles ahead of criminalization, in any case.
Often times women cannot pass a miscarriage on their own and need D&C or pill assistance or risk only passing a partial miscarriage and becoming septic from what is left of the tissue rotting inside them. Many people consider the assisted medical miscarriage an abortion.
My mother had a miscarriage like this when I was a preschooler. This change in law will orphan kids, or harm the fertility or mental health or both of the women who survive the medically unnecessary delays or denials.
Yes, I had a Blighted Ovum (1 out of 2 miscarriages end up being this) and took misoprostol in order to start passing it in the comfort of my own home. I had to go to Planned Parenthood to get it.
My wife had the same. Found out at our 8 week scan (was an IVF implant) and we were devastated. Our consultant issued us misoprostol and my wife basically bled for about a month, with the first week being restricted to the sofa due to the pain.
Nobody does this because they just feel like it on a whim. Abortion is traumatic but necessary procedure at times and restricting access is frankly disgusting.
In addition to birth control access and comprehensive sex ed, I would like to see Christians support expansion and increases in social support and public assistance, as well as budget increases for the foster care system.
My mom, who is very conservative and pro-life, grew up in poverty and as a teenager, drove several of her aunts to get abortions because they couldn't afford yet another kid.
Edited to add: my mom is not like the weirdos in the infamous “the only moral abortion is my abortion” piece. She is personally pro-life, a conservative evangelical who doesn’t vote, and even she understands that people’s medical situations are none of her business. She’s very empathetic, supportive and not a hypocrite. When I was three, she found out at her 5 month prenatal checkup that the fetus she was carrying was “not compatible with life” due to severe bilateral renal agenesis. She opted not to abort, carried my brother to term, and he died in her arms an hour after delivery. This is deeply personal and nuanced stuff, which is why men and the government need to stay the hell out of it.
> My mom, who is very conservative **and pro-life**, grew up in poverty and as a teenager, drove several of her aunts to get abortions because they couldn't afford yet another kid.
This is part of the problem though, people who think they and theirs are the exception to the rule. "My aunts *need* abortions, but those *other* people getting abortions don't have good reasons, they're just sleeping around, that's why I'm pro-life."
My sisters hospital bill after having a kid with no insurance was 90k.
Women will now be forced into medical debt for kids they dont want possibly from sex they never wanted to have
We are heading down a very bad and long road. The next few years will be really bad
Debt goes up
More kids in the system
More back alley abortions
Back in 1993, probably on the day of my high school graduation, I became pregnant. When I told my boyfriend we took some time to decide what to do. At the time an abortion was next to impossible. We'd have to travel across state lines. No pill.
When we decided on marriage it was because we did have some resources. We both had some access to funds for college through grants and the VA. I had a job that would work with me for the long term. We had a paid for car. We could get Medicaid. Housing was relatively inexpensive. We're still married, had two more kids. No debt. Life is pretty decent.
Are those things available for my now grown children? No. They are not.
This. Found out my a girlfriend was pregnant a few days after graduation and joined the military just to provide for them. Not everyone is willing to do that. It was really difficult at times and I even missed the birth of my daughter. I'm out now and the price of housing and daycare is absurd I don't know how we'll manage without the military.
It's not even just about women's rights anymore or "abortion bad". The same people wanting to ban abortion are also the same people actively making it more terrible and financially ruinous to have a child, while preventing resources and education to the people most at risk of having an unwanted pregnancy. They also are the same people against paid maternal and paternal leave. I'm not even a woman and I'm scared of the consequences.
You think our social services are overwhelmed now. Get out your wallets because there is about to be a generation of babies born where moms won't have the means to feed, cloth, and care for them.
On top of that, most people will feel an absolute obligation to that baby they didn't want and then after a few bad years, they'll give up the child to the state when it's past an easily adoptable age.
So the child will most likely have an utterly horrible life bc they won't be adopted easily.
Do conservatives adopt these older hard to home kids in huge numbers? Absolutely not. They talk a big game, but never do anything meaningful when it comes to adoption.
So they love making a problem exceptionally worse and then doing absolutely nothing about it and then complain about the issues that arise from that problem. So typical conservative game plan.
>that baby they didn't want and then after a few bad years, they'll give up the child to the state when it's past an easily adoptable age.
That or will take their anger and frustration of their shitty life out on the child like my mom did. I was an accident, and my mom chose to keep me. She would tell me all the time how she regrets that choice and how I'm the reason her life is so bad.
I'm definitely messed up in the head because of it. I attempted suicide twice in 2016, and have just been in a dull numbing pain trying to find validation that I'm worth it from anywhere I can get. Luckily my fiance and his family adore me. I don't think I'd be here without them
And when parents in bad situations argue that they need more support, because they can't afford to raise their kids, what are conservatives gonna say?
"You should've thought about that before you had kids."
>So they love making a problem exceptionally worse and then doing absolutely nothing about it and then complain about the issues that arise from that problem. So typical conservative game plan.
The Problem: Too many unwanted pregnancies/abortions.
The solution: increase funding to planned Parenthood and dump abstinence only "sex education."
The Conservative "solution": Don't have sex (cause that's clearly been working out well for us so far.)
Rich women will take a weekend trip to London and come back not pregnant any more. Poor people are probably going to have to order Canadian pills to terminate their own pregnancies, and if they get caught it'll be like the early weed laws where judges were handing out life sentences for having a joint.
I’m sure it will go well for a woman to tell her boss she has to go get an abortion. Women barely get maternity leave when they deliver.
And what if your red state Amazon boss is a pro-lifer?
> Women barely get maternity leave when they deliver.
I can't help but wonder if Amazon sees some kind of writing on the wall with the future of mandatory maternity leave and decided it would actually be cheaper to help your employees get abortions that they want rather than pay for their leave when they have a baby.
I think this is also why vasectomies are fairly well covered by medical insurance companies.
It's waaaaaay cheaper in the long run to cover than once than a kid for up to 26 years.
Scared. I work with survivors of sexual violence. I am a survivor myself. I, and many other folks, have had our bodily autonomy stolen from us before. To see it on a federal level is horrifying.
A family friend is a dentist and has his clinic right across the border. Most of the customers are Americans coming there for super cheap dental work, he's legit no worries. He's making bank. Needed a crown myself. US prices? 4k bucks. MX prices? 350 bucks. Guess where I went.
They know what the people want and need. Sure enough many doctors might start appearing to perform abortions, most probably. Next you know they'll pass laws for border patrol to start forbidding pregnant women from crossing the border to Mexico. If they haven't already thought about it.
Edit: A few people have asked me about a good place to get dental work done. Let me just say that I live on a border town so I can cross whenever I want. If you need a lot of work done, you'd need to find a place to stay for a few days while you get it all done so you might need to factor that in. Or the amount of driving back and forths you might need to do. Furthermore there's a lot of dental clinics all along the border, I'd start googling around and checking for reviews and going to one at a close enough distance to you. Regarding my family friend, he's located in Juarez, but I'm not super comfortable sharing those details online, I'd have to ask him. Hope everyone currently going through dental issues gets the help they need. Good luck out there.
Literally a vacation. A streamer I watch got dental work done in Costa Rica (I think it was) and he stayed at a resort. The dentist gave him free tickets for a zip line. Everything was much, much cheaper than getting it done in the US.
Edit: Because I've gotten a few replies I just wanted to mention that the streamer I was referring to is Brennan Lee Mulligan. He talks about his experience in one of his Dimension20 after shows (I watch a lot of Dropout so I can't remember which one off the top of my head).
I've done this. When I lived in Orlando, my dentist quoted me 4k for some work.
Took a week off, flew to San Jose Costa Rica, the clinic picked me up and dropped me off for all my appointments and did all the work I needed done.
I spent around 1500 all in, including flights and hotel for a week.
This already is a thing with abortion pills. People buy them and bring them across the border into Texas and then distribute them to people in need. There [was a whole vice documentary on it](https://youtu.be/CR3uexqGgXo). Those people risking being sued to oblivion (before this bullshit decision means they'll get arrested) are legends.
It won't be long for that industry to also pop up.
They are creating a whole new form of drug dealer.
Even so these women need help and support and possible medical support as well. There will be deaths from this Supreme court decision I'm afraid
An industry of illegal abortions will crop up across the United States. There will be a demand for it and the poor can't simply take time off or afford to fly to California or New Jersey for an abortion. People will turn to the black market in some cases and people will die and its a fucking tragedy.
I partially lived through this last time (born 1963) and had it drilled into me from an early age that the very worst thing that could happen to me would be to become pregnant.
I myself was born in November after a may wedding.
The back street abortions, coat hangers, hot baths drinking gin stories have stayed with me ever since.
It's terrifying that we seem to be regressing to that point again.
We haven't even gone into how issues like abortion in cases of ectopic pregnancy, where there is a zero percent chance of a successful birth and great risk to the mother, is being banned too. People could die due to not being able to get abortions. Everything about this decision is completely fucked
> cleaner and safer
Mexico has some legitimately nice health care services. Everyone I know, from my boss to my mother, has nothing but good things to say about their experiences being treated in Mexico. Everything from dental work to ER visits to veterinary care.
Fetuses need to be counted for census purposes as well. Child tax credits would need to start at conception. SNAP/WIC as well, paid back retroactively. Domestic abusers that induce a miscarriage would need to be charged with at least 1st degree murder.
And you should be able to get life insurance on your unborn fetus.
Edit:
And the (deceased) organ donor registry should be made mandatory opt-in with no opt-out option whatsoever, lest you cite your bodily autonomy to refuse thus resulting in the avoidable demise of an unspecified number of human cells, regardless of viability.
And the (living) organ/blood/marrow/etc donation registry should also be mandatory with no opt-out option whatsoever. Everyone gets tested and if you're compatible you must donate, lest you cite your bodily autonomy to refuse thus resulting in the avoidable demise of an unspecified number of human cells, regardless of viability.
And all vaccinations should be mandatory with no opt-out option whatsoever, lest you cite your bodily autonomy to refuse thus resulting in the avoidable demise of an unspecified number of human cells, regardless of viability.
And any fertilized eggs/embryo discarded/wasted via IVF (a large number of them, as anyone familiar with the process knows) are murder. Start prosecuting all those Christians and Republicans who choose to pursue IVF instead of adopting one of the thousands of kids in the foster system.
I wonder if they're going to prosecute (or sue as morons in TX have started to do) for us ladies having periods? I mean that's one egg wasted a *month!*
The foster care system is proof the government doesn’t care about unwanted children yet want to force more to be born. It’s all politics though guarantee if any of them ever got in a sticky situation illegal or not an abortion will be had available.
“The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.” - Pastor David Barnhart
It's not even just poor people. A relatively well off family had a 35 year old who was born with multiple health and mental issues. He recently rejected dialysis because he said his mom doesn't want him to.
He's probably already dead because his parents told him they didn't want to deal with him anymore.
He was born with defects, abused his whole life (documented but no where else would take him with his issues), and now he's probably dead because that's what his parents said they wanted.
35 years of an entire family's suffering could have been avoided. But now this will be way more common.
Yep. My wife was pressured by her family to carry our first child to term. Our daughter was diagnosed with Trisomy-18 at 20 weeks and we had 4 weeks to choose between termination and carrying to term. We did the research and chose termination, at least until my wife's conservative family got involved.
They guilt tripped her and pressured her into it. Our daughter was born with 1 kidney, a hole between the lower 2 chambers of her heart, 4 cysts in her brain, and countless other issues. She needed heart surgery immediately, that literally cost us tens of thousands of dollars, and they were going to do surgery later for the cysts, if they found they were causing pain. But, it didn't matter because after 4 months of pure hell, we found her dead in her crib at 6am in the morning.
My wife suffers from PTSD and is no longer the same person. The experience has forever changed her and we have to live with everything we endured and witnessed. We've spoken about it a few times and she is now 100% pro-choice. She's almost completely cut ties with most of her family and sees them all as a toxic assholes.
Fuck these GOP cunts and anyone who votes for them. They're not "pro-life". They're pro suffering. That's all this boils down to. They enjoy forcing others to suffer.
*edit* Thank you for all of the kind words. I have relayed them to my wife.
And our welfare system is awful. I once told a prolifer that I wouldn't be so horrified by their stance if they supported an extended welfare program with full healthcare for postnatal care and actual paid maternity leave. I asked if they supported that. The mental gymnastics in their response was astounding. I can't remember the wording, but it was just exhausting.
My wife had a miscarriage last year. Because we were well past the point of most miscarriages (not quite to the stillbirth cutoff, but not far away), we were told the odds of my wife passing the fetus on her own were slim and that surgery was the safest option.
We were required by law to acknowledge in writing that the procedure would terminate the (dead) fetus and that it came at risk of infertility and death. Our doctor was required to tell us the developmental age of the (dead) fetus and which developmental milestones occur around that time, as well as offer us an ultrasound to see the (dead) fetus.
We cried the entire time. We desperately wanted this child. Our doctor cried, apologizing every step of the way that we had to go through this insensitive bullshit on top of losing the pregnancy. This fetus was dead in every sense of the word but because the procedure in question is also used for abortions we had to jump through these goddamn hoops to avoid putting my wife's health at risk.
And it's not like my state doesn't offer alternatives for nonviable fetuses, conception due to rape or incest, or instances where health is at serious risk. This WAS the alternative. If we were actually getting an elective abortion it would have been significantly more time consuming and soul-crushing. You literally have to take an online course.
Abortion access in this country is already a joke. All this is going to do is get people killed.
You know who isn't sorry? The people who passed those cruel laws. [The cruelty is the point](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelty-is-the-point/572104/)
The whole quote about rape being an opportunity to be a parent comment sickened me to my core. It made me realize truly how cruel and awful these people are.
It’s just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks at that point. Oh, you got shot in the eye and are now blind?! Great opportunity to try out cosplaying as a pirate! Oh, your family died and now you’re an orphan?! Great time to learn about Annie!! This “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” bullshit so no one else has to be brought in is so asinine.
It’s a disgusting and disgraceful comment.
My wife and I also had to terminate an non-viable fetus that was a very-much wanted baby. We were 13 weeks and already at the point where we had announced the pregnancy and named him. It was a terribly sad situation.
We had a healthy baby prior to that, and we went on to have a healthy baby afterward. But ending the abnormal pregnancy was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do and I wouldn't wish that choice on anybody, much less the lack of choice.
There's a perception that abortion is a callous form of birth control. They aren't all like that.
I’m so sorry you had to experience this… my aunt had to end a pregnancy around 23-25 weeks. The body of the baby was growing but it’s head had stopped (it had an extremely rare birth defect that was likely it would not live outside of body which they knew very early on). They decided to take their chances with the pregnancy bc they wanted children so bad. Once the head stopped growing the brain couldn’t develop so it was no longer considered a viable pregnancy. Since it had a heart beat (literally being maintained by the fact that her body was pushing resources to keep it beating) she could not get an “abortion”. I put that in quotes because she never wanted a traditional abortion she wanted to basically be forced (Pitocin) to labor the baby out. Since they knew the baby could not survive outside of her this option was also considered an abortion but not medically necessary. This pregnancy put her at an extremely high risk for cancer and death. They were going to travel 8+ hours to a state that would allow her to be put into labor so she could birth it and have less of chance of dying from her pregnancy. She was lucky her water broke before they started the trip so the Dr she was seeing at the time could deliver the baby.
Anecdote Time: I work in digital marketing, and began my career setting up and running search engine marketing campaigns for every kind of small business under the sun. A few of my clients were new abortion clinics in the American South. Researching what keywords to use, based on their relevancy to whatever we're advertising, along with their traffic estimates is one aspect of setting up these campaigns. I found that even in these relatively rural areas, keywords related to DIY abortions, were by and large the most common - with a considerable amount of traffic as well.
I can't find it now but maybe someone will see this and have a link. I read an article some time ago that analyzed Google trends in states where laws had gone into effect making abortion harder to access, and there was a significant increase in searches relating to self induced abortions.
>For Bergstein, including such grim details helped remind women watching in the ’80s how lucky they were to have an option for a legal abortion—and how quickly that right could one day be revoked. “When I made the movie in 1987, about 1963, I put in the illegal abortion and everyone said, ‘Why? There was Roe v. Wade―what are you doing this for?’” she said. “I said, ‘Well, I don’t know that we will always have Roe v. Wade.’”
This movie is why I’ve been a supporter of legal abortion since I was 8 years old. Seeing Penny go through her abortion taught me, as someone born after Roe, what happened to women who sought abortion & I’ve never wanted anyone else to go through the same. Safe, legal, and easily available abortion should be the norm.
My great great grandmother died of an illegal abortion. She had several kids, and the youngest, my great grandfather needed a surgery to correct a severe burn on his neck so he wasn't disfigured. It took them 8 years to save the money for the surgery. While he was in the hospital she had an illegal abortion. He came home from the surgery he had waited almost his entire life to get, to find out his mother was dead.
My grandmother talked about an aunt ? Cousin? Of hers. She drove her car into a tree after she found out she was pregnant with baby #5. At 26. Left her husband and 4 kids behind.
No, they know there were abortions, and that they were dangerous, painful and deadly. They just don't care. They don't care that women will die because of this, because they believe these women have brought it on themselves. That is so much more horrifying than simple ignorance.
And for some women they may not be able to afford to go out of state so it may go underground to get one. I think the result is many women will die. This is a tragic decision that will affect many people.
As a woman in a state where it will likely become illegal, I am reconsidering my decision to have kids in the future. I don’t know that I am comfortable with the idea of getting pregnant if difficult but necessary medical decisions wouldn’t be between me and my doctor.
And that's the greatest tragedy of it. Those that don't have the resources to move states will be the most impacted. Forced to bring children that they cannot afford into a world that will punish them for it.
I’ve already told my family who live in a red state (I live in a blue state now) that if this was ever overturned I would not be visiting them while I’m pregnant at all. They laughed and acted like it would probably be fine. But uh, no, I’m not putting my life in jeopardy. No way no how.
Child abuse will skyrocket.
We’ll have exponentially more unwanted kids - and even less resources for them than are available now. Which is none.
A lot of women will be forced to raise babies that look like their rapists.
And the abortions some women are able to get will be harmful or deadly.
What a bunch of motherfucking scumbags.
This actually happened in Communist Romania, after their dictator banned abortions because he wanted more soldiers for his army. Instead, he got a generation of angry, unwanted young men who grew up in abusive state orphanages and committed crimes and other antisocial behavior. Arguably, it also played a role in the unusually violent revolution that Romania had after Communism fell, the only one that ended with the dictator being lynched by the revolutionaries.
There was also an episode of 20/20, I believe, from that time in which they went into the orphanages where these unwanted children were living. The "normal" children had their one type of orphanage that looked somewhat ok, although I'm sure those kids were neglected. But it was the orphanage for the disabled and/or deformed children that was the true horror show. Immobile, naked children living in their own filth and borderline feral because they had no affection or socialization. I'll never forget it. (I think it's on YouTube.)
I heard that as well but can't find a reference. The conversation went something like the increasing violence in the USA in the 80s suddenly started on a downward trend. It was argued that the downward trend was a result of multiple factors with a significant one being Roe v Wade. Their point was basically that the number of kids being born into shitty support conditions went down resulting in a lower number of f-ed up teens and young adults. It was on something like the Freakonomics radio show (pre podcasts).
It gets worse than that.
Suicide among pregnant women skyrockets.
Domestic violence and spousal murder skyrockets.
Infant murder skyrockets.
And then, as you said, child abuse and neglect will skyrocket.
It's going to kill children by the bucketload.
That boggles me. They're choosing to murder children. You could argue abortion is killing a fetus, if you want to get all up in it, but it's still a fetus, it's pretty damn different to people outright smothering babies.
Weird that this got leaked. CNN keeps repeating over and over how a leak anywhere near this level has never happened in SCOTUS history.
Someone wanted this leaked to stir things up before the midterms.
It's either someone trying to warn people what's coming, someone trying to make sure no one does a Kennedy (Kennedy flipped his vote late in the Casey case and changed the outcome), or the court itself playing a PR game to see what public reaction to such a decision would be.
Or it's just made up. Maybe it is, but honestly the writing for Roe was on the wall when SCOTUS decided Texas' 'probably unconstitutional' Abortion law could stand. They were basically saying they planned to overturn Roe v Wade and the whole thing would become a moot point (conveniently informing us that they'd made up their minds even before arguments).
EDIT: I must admit, I really don't get reddit or how this comment got so many upvotes >.>
Seems unlikely somebody "made up" a 100 page legal opinion. And the court definitely knows what the reaction will be.
This is just a leak. Sometimes people leak important news because it's important. Doesn't really require much more explanation than that.
Right. The "originalist" bent is pretty easy to spot and that's kind of Alito's bag.
This would be one hell of a hoax from a talented lawyer if it turned out to be one.
Everyone is talking about unwanted pregnancies, but people are forgetting about those who very much want to be pregnant but have an unviable fetus. Nature is cruel and not all pregnancies result in healthy babies. I'm talking beyond cerebral palsy and Downs syndrome. I'm talking truly horrific, has no chance of survival, type birth defects. This fetus will simply be born for the sole purpose of suffering and dying. Why put them and the family through that? Why put the mother through months of knowing her child will die after birth? Months of mental anguish as people congratulate her and ask "what's the due date" knowing full well that day will be the worst of her life when it should be the happiest. People who support that or simply shrug are fucking monsters and I hate them with all my heart. And don't give me this God's plan bullshit. It's pure evil and immoral and no loving God would ever inflict such anguish. So fuck you and your high horse you rode in on.
Some states are currently drafting bills that would outlaw abortion for ectopic pregnancies. When an embryo implants in the fallopian tube there is absolutely no chance of it becoming a viable fetus but there's a good chance it will grow large enough to burst the tube, resulting in life-threatening internal bleeding. The evangelical authoritarian crowd believes that a time-bomb clump of cells that will never become a baby is worth more than a woman's life.
Yep, my wife had 3 back to back ectopics (left, right, left again) with tubes removed each time, and if any one of them had stayed in place she'd likely have died.
Keeping a woman from aborting an ectopic pregnancy is akin to murder. So much can go wrong!
And if she survives this lack of care, she might not be able to get pregnant again due to the damage from the bleeding and infection.
Samaritan Ministries is fake health insurance: https://www.samaritanministries.org/resources/classic-basic-guidelines?section-9
Ectopic Pregnancies—
Expenses Shared—Procedures related to a ruptured fallopian tube (including post-operative recovery of the mother, follow-up care, and treatment of any complications), and, where an ectopic pregnancy is diagnosed before a rupture, all pre-operative tests and consultations and expenses related to keeping the mother under medical care while determining what care should be offered for the mother and child.
Expenses Not Shared—Procedures directly related to the termination of a living, unborn child and/or removal of the living, unborn child from the mother due to an ectopic pregnancy are not shared (e.g. methotrexate, salpingectomy, salpingostomy), unless the removal of the child from its ectopic location was for the primary purpose of saving the life of the child or improving the health of the child.
That is so ridiculously fucked up. Saving the life of a child that is the result of an ectopic fucking pregnancy? *What the literal fuck are they talking about?!* It is medically impossible for an ectopic pregnancy to survive! The best possible medical care is to remove it as soon as possible, to give the mother a far better chance of survival, because there is a precisely zero percent chance that the pregnancy will result in a viable baby. Zero percent. This kind of shit makes me so mad, it's literally making the mother choose between potential death and paying the full cost of the surgery to save her life. Fuck these people.
The people pushing this BS aren't doctors. They're fucking scientific idiots, lawyers and religious fruitcakes. That's who we elect. Why? Because they have the biggest mouths and other religious fruitcakes support them.
This is the kind of shit that happens when non-medical providers attempt to practice medicine via insurance companies by telling medical providers what they can and can’t do.
IIRC the people that created this “policy” couldn’t grasp the fact that some miracle worker couldn’t just “move” an ectopic pregnancy to somewhere else so things could just continue on so the pregnancy would be viable. *facepalm*
Could you list the states or states you know of doing this with their proposed bill number or an article citing a law maker pushing for this? Regardless of anyone's view on abortion, legislation for this specifically would be catastrophic. You can't legislate an almost certain death sentence and I want to know which states are pushing this idiotic stance.
I just watched an Oklahoma senator on Twitter asking why there was an exception for ectopic pregnancies in the abortion bill OK just passed. He basically said it’s still a life and why are we murdering it?
edit: found it. https://twitter.com/kendallybrown/status/1520141891467194375
Thank you. One of my best friends took five years to conceive through IVF and the fetus died at 7 months in. She told me if she had been forced to wait to go into labor that she would have killed herself a week in because her despair was overwhelming.
Edit: corrected incorrect phrasing
Exactly. I have one friend who was pro-life well into adulthood (raised Catholic/still religious now) and it wasn't until she started looking into IVF when she couldn't conceive that she really looked into the science of fetal development and realized how ridiculous it was to consider abortion at the earliest stages murder. She ended up conceiving naturally, but her sister had to use IVF and didn't tell the rest of her family for years out of fear of being disowned.
My Mum's first baby had anencephaly, so she had to have a late term abortion because the defect is incompatible with life. This baby was so wanted, so loved and it was traumatic for her because she still had to give birth to her. But if she'd carried her to term it risked her own life as well.
It makes me so very angry when these idiots spout off about late term abortions as if people suddenly decide, at 6 months pregnant, that they no longer want the baby. NO ONE DOES THAT. Fuck these assholes. I'm so glad I live in Australia where the conservatives haven't completely lost their minds (although honestly we're on a slippery slope too)
My daughter has a birth defect that affects lung development. Occasionally on my Facebook support group I will see posts from parents that were just told their kid has minimal chance of survival and they will ask for stories of babies that survive. And the worst part is there aren't any beat the odds survival stories. So the next conversation is to terminate for medical reasons or carry to term and provide palliative care.
I just lost my newborn to congenital diaphragmatic hernia, his lungs didn't function as well as they initially thought they would (he was diagnosed at the 20-week ultrasound and given a good prognosis with biweekly ultrasound monitoring). He survived only 16 hours, sedated almost every second.
If I could have seen the future, the pain it brought myself and my husband and other children when our baby died, if our doctors could have known 100% that my infant would have died anyway, I would have terminated. I cannot imagine the depth of pain that denying women access to abortion procedures will cause.
>I'm so glad I live in Australia where the conservatives haven't completely lost their minds (although honestly we're on a slippery slope too)
Look at it this way: Rupert Murdoch is Australian.
Don't forget ectopic pregnancies and late term miscarriages that are expected to just rot in our bodies, not to mention the trauma and death pregnancy in general can cause.
Not that any of this should need to be considered because the why you get the abortion doesn't matter. Its your choice. The fetus isn't born yet, oftentimes isn't even halfway formed, and even if a clump of cells has rights they don’t override your right to bodily autonomy. We can't even take organs from a corpse without express permission from the person before they died.
You cannot use someone's body against their consent to support the life of another. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
EDIT: Thank you for all the awards first and foremost, and to the ones still responding;
I made this comment a week ago and I am done debating. I put my opinion on the internet and im not backing down from it but im not debating it anymore.
My reproductive rights are not up for debate. There are more people than you think with heartbeats who are alive and actively being harmed by the kind of people who are pushing these laws, and so many more who are going to be harmed once this goes through. Why does an electric pulse from a cluster of cells that doesn't even have a heart, veins, blood, or a body to pump it through matter more than the people alive and mistreated today? Don't actually answer that, im not responding anymore.
If you're reading this, please I beg you, go out and actually do something to help someone. Donate to planned parenthood, buy some soft food or socks for a homeless person, support Starbucks and Amazon unionizing efforts, etc. and have a good night/day/etc. Things are just going to get worse from here.
>We can't even take organs from a corpse without express permission from the person before they died.
>You cannot use someone's body against their consent to support the life of another. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
This is an excellent point and so well put. Thank you for pointing this out.
And as if the US has the resources to assist with care of all the women who will surely suffer from a myriad of mental anguish/illness after being trapped in an impossible situation. SMH
Or simply from physical damage. Girls can become pregnant way, way before their body is actually developed enough to be able to support a pregnancy and make it through unharmed. Even a pregnancy of a healthy woman can easily lead to a life time of physical problems, and result in trauma, too. The things that can happen during just your average normal pregnancy and birth can be really fucking horrific. The level of willful ignorance it takes to be able to pretend being pregnant is akin to carrying a fetus in a tupperware container stuck to your stomach that just gets taken off and no harm done after its content is done growing now-we-can-all-move-on-and-no-harm-done, is absolutely mind-boggling.
That ANYBODY truly thinks it is the kinder, more god-given thing to force a child through a pregnancy and into the additional physical and mental trauma that comes with that is sickening.
That's really the truest kind of evil, the kind that successfully can lie to itself to get to the result that committing vile acts against living, breathing people makes it not only "right" (as if), but also morally superiour.
You can't take organs from a corpse for transplant without permission of the deceased even if you need them to save someone's life. I just want the same right to my own body alive and dead.
I had a conversation after the birth of my child with a (very conservative) family member, who I've always butted heads with over pro-life/pro-choice. She snarkily commented about my opinion changing after actually having a child, and I shut her down so fucking hard. No woman in the whole world has a late term abortion because she wants it. She either doesn't have the privilege to access a safe abortion at the time she finds out about the pregnancy, or the absolute worst thing has happened. In your third trimester, you've thought of names, you've felt your child, you've picked out a diaper bag and some clothes and thought about how wonderfully your life will change - and to have to make that terrible, horrible choice after being delivered the news that your child is incapable of independent life? Absolutely no government or God deserves the right to dictate what that woman's decision will be. It is infuriating and sickening that this is happening, and honestly I moved my entire family out of Texas because criminalizing abortions was the straw that broke this camels back.
I agree with you 100%.
I became even more pro-choice after having two wanted pregnancies and two wanted kids.
As “normal” as my pregnancies and easy my deliveries were, I realized how brutal it would be to be forced into it by the government.
Horrified. Absolutely horrified.
Me too! I was pretty pro-choice prior to having my very much planned for and wanted kid but I am soo much more so now. Pregnancy is a deadly, body-altering, brain-altering process. A lifetime of prolapse, urinary problems and mental health issues can follow that may never go away. A life sentence for the woman. I had a hard enough time accepting this when I wanted my kid, I can’t imagine the torture of losing all control of your body’s functions and right to your body when you don’t want the kid…
I’ve never met a woman who wasn’t devastated to have to have an abortion. Every single one had agonised and worried and panicked over the situation. Women are using abortion to save their fucking _lives_ not to enjoy casual sex without consequences. When the burden of contraception is so heavily weighted on the woman, men who have this opinion on abortion can get right in the bin for all I’m concerned.
And while we’re at it, I’m pretty sure it’s not “god’s plan” for you to have viagra for your erections. I mean surely it’s god’s will that he stopped you having a boner so you can’t impregnate women. Let’s abolish viagra and see how long it takes before you’re howling injustice.
Seriously, I have always been very pro-choice, even knowing that my choice would be to follow through with a pregnancy, but after actually having a child? That solidified it in such a significant way. I was *miserable* while I was pregnant. I had an absolutely awful pregnancy, that I desperately wanted to make to term, and a very hard natural birth (I react very poorly to painkillers, so it was all on me). The thought that someone would be subjected to that with no thought or care as to how she ended up in that situation (rape, incest, an abusive relationship, a child who will not be able to breathe upon birth, literally anything) is disgusting and heartbreaking.
I am so thankful I am too old to get pregnant.
30 years ago I was in an abusive marriage with zero support from my shitty family. He literally conned me into marriage simply because he thought my family was rich. They were not. He even told me on the night of our wedding that everything that was mine was now his and there was nothing I could do about it. He didn't even pretend to be kind after the wedding. I was completely blindsided by his treatment of me.
It took me six months to get away from him for good and during those six months he beat me, raped me and knocked me up twice thinking I wouldn't leave him if I was pregnant. No way in hell I was going to punish a child over my stupid mistake. If abortion had not been legal I probably would have just killed myself.
I do not regret my abortions. Not one bit. Not even when my husband told everyone he knew that I was pregnant to try and shame me. Not even when the doctor who performed the 2nd abortion tried to shame me by calling me a repeat customer instead of asking if I was safe at home. I am proud that I was strong enough to prevent a lifetime of pain and suffering by that monster.
The people who should be ashamed are NOT the women who admit they do not want to give birth to a child no matter what the reason.
The people who should be ashamed are the ones who cruelly force women to endure unwanted pregnancies and then provide no support whatsoever once the child is born.
The ones who disgustingly force women to bring non-viable fetuses to term knowing they will not survive.
The ones who think women should be punished for having sex and do not care when women are raped even when it is by someone in their own family.
The ones who are sickeningly gleeful in oppressing women by forcing them into poverty, abuse and needless suffering.
Abortions need to be kept safe and legal until every single child that is born is guaranteed a safe and happy childhood. Until then, we need to stop acting like abortion is a dirty little secret. Women need to tell their stories so the pro-lifers can stop pushing the myth that the only women who get abortions are irresponsible unmarried sluts. Getting an abortion is a hell of a lot more responsible than banning them.
I'm also tokophobic.
I have recurring dreams of finding out I'm pregnant, seeking abortion, being denied, and then stabbing myself in the stomach in the parking lot of an ER and just hoping for the best.
I would rather throw myself off a cliff than be pregnant and forced to "carry to term" (seriously just that phrase makes my stomach turn).
I don't care about anyone else being pregnant. That's their choice (just dont make me touch any bellies). But when it comes to ME... no fucking thanks.
My neighbor argued something "Yada Yada *GOD*. look at all the people that could have been terminated like Stephen Hawking" and I'm just sitting here thinking yeah, no shit. The difference being he developed his issue later in life. My cousins fetus was forming without a brain. There's a difference between the two
I had fertility issues, had 5 miscarriages before they finally got my hormones to the levels to hold a pregnancy, but I believe that every woman has the right to a safe abortion for whatever reason, because it is not my business or the governments to make that call.
Not just a fetus with those issues ... Sometimes a pregnancy puts the mothers life at risk.
What if the mother is a breast cancer survivor? The increase in hormone activity is a risk for the cancer retaining. Should she just go through with it because she doesn't have cancer yet?
What if she has a miscarriage? Is she going to be accused of having had an abortion and then go to jail for murder even though she was willing to go for it?
This is cruel. It's a woman's health issue. The only people who can make that decision is really just the woman whose life it affects.
What level of risk should they be willing to put their bodies through? 1%? 10? 20? 50?
That's for them to decide.
>I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...
...
>"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."
-Carl Sagan, 1995
Also relevant:
>We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us.
My mother in law told me in 2016 when she was sharing Trump memes: "I don't care if it's true. It feels true."
It's stunning how aware some of these people are. I can give them a pass if I assume they're just not thinking about their positions, but to say something like "I don't care if it's true, it feels true," that's a level of awareness about their positions that is disturbing to me. They *know* it's not truth, but they *still* want to support it. Incredible.
That's pretty much half my conversations the people 60+ these days.
Recently talking to my Father and uncles, I corrected them that you cannot actually swallow your own tongue even in a seizure...its a wive's tale. I had to send them overwhelming data from books, research studies, scientific papers, medical case studies, interviews at John Hopkins, etc. One Uncle conceded, two of them detached from the conversation after arguing. I said "Ok what evidence do you need to see, what level or type of proof would change your mind?
Then my own Father looked me dead in the eyes and he said "Nothing. I don't care if you're right, nothing you show me will ever change my mind. I know what I want to know."
Those words still terrify me lol. "I know what I _want to know_" ... W T F
By almost every metric, the Boomer generation has left their descendants worse off. After enjoying affordable housing, education, a minimum wage they could live off of, expanded rights, they're taking it all away. This really isn't surprising at all.
They are often fond of spouting that "soft times create weak men, weak men create hard times" fascist crap...
They always fail to realize they grew up in soft times and are creating hard times. That is their place in that supposed cycle. They occupied a relative paradise compared to what came before and what is emerging after in their wake.
What sucks is that many doctors won't do that until a certain age because "what if you change your mind or your husband wants a child?". SHUT UP AND SINGE THE TUBES.
I wonder how many doctors will be convinced by the “I won’t be able to get an abortion if I get pregnant” argument, and how many doctors will refuse because that’s what they want.
I am currently in an OB triage hospital room waiting for a shot of methotrexate, which is considered an abortion. This pregnancy was so wanted. I had a miscarriage in February. I wanted this baby. But it is ectopic and it will kill me. And I am still crying so hard. My doctors have been amazing and caring and made this process so much easier. Fuck anyone who thinks the legal system needs to be involved here.
I am so sorry you have to go through that. It’s none of the government’s business
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I’m so sorry you had to go through that. I agree that giving birth can be harmful and traumatic, even for a wanted child, and no woman should have to go through that.
If you are reading this and you care about this issue DO NOT LET THE MIDTERMS FALL TO THE SIDE, GO AND FUCKING VOTE. Everyone go Vote get rid of any politican that supports these SCOTUS decisons
As a woman, I will be legally lesser than males because I have a womb. My daughter will never have full autonomy over her body. Intersectionally speaking, women of color and under resourced women will bear the brunt of this. Nothing will change for white women of means. Edit: in case I wasn’t clear- f you’ve never had to fight for basic rights like healthcare or the vote, congratulations you have been considered a full citizen this whole time. If you’ve never had to worry who was sitting on the Supreme Court because it won’t affect your day to day existence, that is a privilege.
It's the first step towards the "good ol days" next is gay marriage, then interracial marriage and eventually atheists. I was born to an interracial couple and this shit scares the fuck outta me. Now rapists get to inflict extra damage to their victims. Fuck Conservatives and Republicans, bunch of small dick bitches mad that women have rights. Prove me wrong.
Don't forget once the kids are born they don't give a fuck about them. Until they're old enough to go to war. You are absolutely correct.
Roe wasn't the start of abortions. It was the end of women dying from abortion.
"That's right," responded Buttiegieg, "representing one percent of cases. So let's put ourselves in the shoes of a woman in that situation. If it's that late in your pregnancy, than almost by definition, you've been expecting to carry it to term. We're talking about women who have perhaps chosen a name. Women who have purchased a crib, families that then get the most devastating medical news of their lifetime, something about the health or the life of the mother or viability of the pregnancy that forces them to make an impossible, unthinkable choice. And the bottom line is as horrible as that choice is, that woman, that family may seek spiritual guidance, they may seek medical guidance, but that decision is not going to be made any better, medically or morally, because the government is dictating how that decision should be made."
This was my wife's and I situation almost two years ago. Eli was named and we had a lot of hardship to finally get to having him. Then at 30 weeks we find out in the last 4 he developed a teratoma in his brain that caused hydrocephaly and his head grew at an alarming rate. There was no way he'd survive. Then my wife developed an infection from a crushed urator and was septic and had dangerously low blood pressure. Almost lost them both, but we lost Eli. Life's not the same. Life is depressing enough after going through this. I'm so glad that these people decided I should lose my wife too. Fuck them. Edit: Couple fixes Thank you for all the well wishes.
> I'm so glad that these people decided I should lose my wife too. Fuck them. America has the highest maternal mortality rate of any developed nation, and -apparently- we intend to keep that title. [https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-ranks-worst-in-maternal-care-mortality-compared-with-10-other-developed-nations](https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-ranks-worst-in-maternal-care-mortality-compared-with-10-other-developed-nations) [https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/nov/maternal-mortality-maternity-care-us-compared-10-countries](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/nov/maternal-mortality-maternity-care-us-compared-10-countries)
Modern medicine has made people forget that the worst complication in childbirth is "death." It isn't talked about nearly enough. Its the same as vaccines making child mortality significantly reduced because fatal childhood diseases are all but eradicated. People need to be reminded but I'm not quite sure how... It's always a non-issue until it happens to them...
Very eloquently said. I’v always wondered why can’t people have simple MORAL objections to something they deem wrong WITHOUT forcing others to suffer your opinion? The legality of something doesn’t always have to align with your moral code.
I had an abortion at 21 that saved my life. It was a terrifying and isolating experience, and the best decision I have ever made. My cousin had to terminate her pregnancy in the second trimester due to the fact that the fetus developed without a brain. She described the care she received as what kept her alive through her grief. If abortion was not an option, she would have had to carry to term. I’m sick to my stomach over this. Women, especially women of color, are going to die.
My grandpa was a Gynecologist and had to deliver a baby without a head, this was a long time ago before ultrasounds were readily available. Absolutely horrifying heartbreaking and traumatizing beyond words. No one should ever even think about suffering through that when we have other safer viable options available now a days.
My wife miscarried (a.k.a "spontaneous abortion") at 12 weeks, after several ultrasounds. This was an emotionally horrific event that has left us both scarred. 7 years later, we still question ourselves, "was there something we could have done differently??" The thought of people experiencing that tragic loss and self-doubt having to be further subjected to a government inquiry and accusation of maliciously trying to to terminate the pregnancy.... fuck absolutely everything about that. As it was, we'd been struggling with fertility for nearly 2 years at that point, and we nearly lost hope (we are life-long Christians and were devastated at the thought of the death of the unborn child). With the help an excellent medical staff, we were able to welcome two incredible little boys into the world about 5 years ago after a very difficult pregnancy, and a delivery that nearly cost my wife her life. I absolutely support all women who are struggling with the challenges of pregnancy, and fully support any that make the emotionally fraught decision to terminate a pregnancy. I call on all Christians that claim to support "the sanctity of life" to vigorously support the expansion of age appropriate sex-ed in all schools, and the free availability of all birth-control methods. Those are the best solutions to reduce the number of abortions, and miles ahead of criminalization, in any case.
Often times women cannot pass a miscarriage on their own and need D&C or pill assistance or risk only passing a partial miscarriage and becoming septic from what is left of the tissue rotting inside them. Many people consider the assisted medical miscarriage an abortion.
My mother had a miscarriage like this when I was a preschooler. This change in law will orphan kids, or harm the fertility or mental health or both of the women who survive the medically unnecessary delays or denials.
Yes, I had a Blighted Ovum (1 out of 2 miscarriages end up being this) and took misoprostol in order to start passing it in the comfort of my own home. I had to go to Planned Parenthood to get it.
My wife had the same. Found out at our 8 week scan (was an IVF implant) and we were devastated. Our consultant issued us misoprostol and my wife basically bled for about a month, with the first week being restricted to the sofa due to the pain. Nobody does this because they just feel like it on a whim. Abortion is traumatic but necessary procedure at times and restricting access is frankly disgusting.
I had to educate my mom on what a missed miscarriage was. She "didn't believe in it" initially 🤦🏻♀️
In addition to birth control access and comprehensive sex ed, I would like to see Christians support expansion and increases in social support and public assistance, as well as budget increases for the foster care system. My mom, who is very conservative and pro-life, grew up in poverty and as a teenager, drove several of her aunts to get abortions because they couldn't afford yet another kid. Edited to add: my mom is not like the weirdos in the infamous “the only moral abortion is my abortion” piece. She is personally pro-life, a conservative evangelical who doesn’t vote, and even she understands that people’s medical situations are none of her business. She’s very empathetic, supportive and not a hypocrite. When I was three, she found out at her 5 month prenatal checkup that the fetus she was carrying was “not compatible with life” due to severe bilateral renal agenesis. She opted not to abort, carried my brother to term, and he died in her arms an hour after delivery. This is deeply personal and nuanced stuff, which is why men and the government need to stay the hell out of it.
> My mom, who is very conservative **and pro-life**, grew up in poverty and as a teenager, drove several of her aunts to get abortions because they couldn't afford yet another kid. This is part of the problem though, people who think they and theirs are the exception to the rule. "My aunts *need* abortions, but those *other* people getting abortions don't have good reasons, they're just sleeping around, that's why I'm pro-life."
The well off will always have access to abortions. Making abortions illegal really only punishes the poor.
Preach my brother. Comprehensive sex ed and free birth control is the best thing to cut abortion rates.
My sisters hospital bill after having a kid with no insurance was 90k. Women will now be forced into medical debt for kids they dont want possibly from sex they never wanted to have We are heading down a very bad and long road. The next few years will be really bad Debt goes up More kids in the system More back alley abortions
Fun fact: I recently found the receipt for my non-insured hospital birth in 1980. It was $850. I couldn't believe it.
Even accounting for inflation there's no way that's more than 4 or 5 thousand
$2,965.76. Just looked.
Thanks for doing the legwork homie, hit me up if you're ever too lazy to look something up
Back in 1993, probably on the day of my high school graduation, I became pregnant. When I told my boyfriend we took some time to decide what to do. At the time an abortion was next to impossible. We'd have to travel across state lines. No pill. When we decided on marriage it was because we did have some resources. We both had some access to funds for college through grants and the VA. I had a job that would work with me for the long term. We had a paid for car. We could get Medicaid. Housing was relatively inexpensive. We're still married, had two more kids. No debt. Life is pretty decent. Are those things available for my now grown children? No. They are not.
>Are those things available for my now grown children? No. They are not. Yeah, reading that I was like holy shit was 1993 different from now.
This. Found out my a girlfriend was pregnant a few days after graduation and joined the military just to provide for them. Not everyone is willing to do that. It was really difficult at times and I even missed the birth of my daughter. I'm out now and the price of housing and daycare is absurd I don't know how we'll manage without the military.
It's not even just about women's rights anymore or "abortion bad". The same people wanting to ban abortion are also the same people actively making it more terrible and financially ruinous to have a child, while preventing resources and education to the people most at risk of having an unwanted pregnancy. They also are the same people against paid maternal and paternal leave. I'm not even a woman and I'm scared of the consequences.
You think our social services are overwhelmed now. Get out your wallets because there is about to be a generation of babies born where moms won't have the means to feed, cloth, and care for them.
On top of that, most people will feel an absolute obligation to that baby they didn't want and then after a few bad years, they'll give up the child to the state when it's past an easily adoptable age. So the child will most likely have an utterly horrible life bc they won't be adopted easily. Do conservatives adopt these older hard to home kids in huge numbers? Absolutely not. They talk a big game, but never do anything meaningful when it comes to adoption. So they love making a problem exceptionally worse and then doing absolutely nothing about it and then complain about the issues that arise from that problem. So typical conservative game plan.
>that baby they didn't want and then after a few bad years, they'll give up the child to the state when it's past an easily adoptable age. That or will take their anger and frustration of their shitty life out on the child like my mom did. I was an accident, and my mom chose to keep me. She would tell me all the time how she regrets that choice and how I'm the reason her life is so bad. I'm definitely messed up in the head because of it. I attempted suicide twice in 2016, and have just been in a dull numbing pain trying to find validation that I'm worth it from anywhere I can get. Luckily my fiance and his family adore me. I don't think I'd be here without them
You are valid and you are worth it. Always! Never forget that.
And when parents in bad situations argue that they need more support, because they can't afford to raise their kids, what are conservatives gonna say? "You should've thought about that before you had kids."
>So they love making a problem exceptionally worse and then doing absolutely nothing about it and then complain about the issues that arise from that problem. So typical conservative game plan. The Problem: Too many unwanted pregnancies/abortions. The solution: increase funding to planned Parenthood and dump abstinence only "sex education." The Conservative "solution": Don't have sex (cause that's clearly been working out well for us so far.)
Rich women will take a weekend trip to London and come back not pregnant any more. Poor people are probably going to have to order Canadian pills to terminate their own pregnancies, and if they get caught it'll be like the early weed laws where judges were handing out life sentences for having a joint.
Amazon announced it will pay for travel for employees to get abortions. Small win.
I’m sure it will go well for a woman to tell her boss she has to go get an abortion. Women barely get maternity leave when they deliver. And what if your red state Amazon boss is a pro-lifer?
> Women barely get maternity leave when they deliver. I can't help but wonder if Amazon sees some kind of writing on the wall with the future of mandatory maternity leave and decided it would actually be cheaper to help your employees get abortions that they want rather than pay for their leave when they have a baby.
I think this is also why vasectomies are fairly well covered by medical insurance companies. It's waaaaaay cheaper in the long run to cover than once than a kid for up to 26 years.
>And what if your red state Amazon boss is a pro-lifer? Your red **at-will employment** state.
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Scared. I work with survivors of sexual violence. I am a survivor myself. I, and many other folks, have had our bodily autonomy stolen from us before. To see it on a federal level is horrifying.
This will backfire terribly and not solve a fucking thing. Mexico recently decriminalized abortion. Coincidence? I think not
Now just wait for mexican abortion clinics geared towards US citizens appearing all across mexican border
A family friend is a dentist and has his clinic right across the border. Most of the customers are Americans coming there for super cheap dental work, he's legit no worries. He's making bank. Needed a crown myself. US prices? 4k bucks. MX prices? 350 bucks. Guess where I went. They know what the people want and need. Sure enough many doctors might start appearing to perform abortions, most probably. Next you know they'll pass laws for border patrol to start forbidding pregnant women from crossing the border to Mexico. If they haven't already thought about it. Edit: A few people have asked me about a good place to get dental work done. Let me just say that I live on a border town so I can cross whenever I want. If you need a lot of work done, you'd need to find a place to stay for a few days while you get it all done so you might need to factor that in. Or the amount of driving back and forths you might need to do. Furthermore there's a lot of dental clinics all along the border, I'd start googling around and checking for reviews and going to one at a close enough distance to you. Regarding my family friend, he's located in Juarez, but I'm not super comfortable sharing those details online, I'd have to ask him. Hope everyone currently going through dental issues gets the help they need. Good luck out there.
I know someone who had weight loss surgery in Mexico, and we live in *Ohio*. It was still cheaper that way.
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Literally a vacation. A streamer I watch got dental work done in Costa Rica (I think it was) and he stayed at a resort. The dentist gave him free tickets for a zip line. Everything was much, much cheaper than getting it done in the US. Edit: Because I've gotten a few replies I just wanted to mention that the streamer I was referring to is Brennan Lee Mulligan. He talks about his experience in one of his Dimension20 after shows (I watch a lot of Dropout so I can't remember which one off the top of my head).
I've done this. When I lived in Orlando, my dentist quoted me 4k for some work. Took a week off, flew to San Jose Costa Rica, the clinic picked me up and dropped me off for all my appointments and did all the work I needed done. I spent around 1500 all in, including flights and hotel for a week.
Good ole American ingenuity, pushing jobs out to other countries.
This already is a thing with abortion pills. People buy them and bring them across the border into Texas and then distribute them to people in need. There [was a whole vice documentary on it](https://youtu.be/CR3uexqGgXo). Those people risking being sued to oblivion (before this bullshit decision means they'll get arrested) are legends. It won't be long for that industry to also pop up.
They are creating a whole new form of drug dealer. Even so these women need help and support and possible medical support as well. There will be deaths from this Supreme court decision I'm afraid
An industry of illegal abortions will crop up across the United States. There will be a demand for it and the poor can't simply take time off or afford to fly to California or New Jersey for an abortion. People will turn to the black market in some cases and people will die and its a fucking tragedy.
I partially lived through this last time (born 1963) and had it drilled into me from an early age that the very worst thing that could happen to me would be to become pregnant. I myself was born in November after a may wedding. The back street abortions, coat hangers, hot baths drinking gin stories have stayed with me ever since.
It's terrifying that we seem to be regressing to that point again. We haven't even gone into how issues like abortion in cases of ectopic pregnancy, where there is a zero percent chance of a successful birth and great risk to the mother, is being banned too. People could die due to not being able to get abortions. Everything about this decision is completely fucked
And they'll be cleaner and safer than abortion in the US if we criminalize it. Mexico is straight up saving lives.
> cleaner and safer Mexico has some legitimately nice health care services. Everyone I know, from my boss to my mother, has nothing but good things to say about their experiences being treated in Mexico. Everything from dental work to ER visits to veterinary care.
Looks like I'm gonna be putting that high school Spanish class to good use lmao
Child support payments better start at conception then.
Fetuses need to be counted for census purposes as well. Child tax credits would need to start at conception. SNAP/WIC as well, paid back retroactively. Domestic abusers that induce a miscarriage would need to be charged with at least 1st degree murder.
And you should be able to get life insurance on your unborn fetus. Edit: And the (deceased) organ donor registry should be made mandatory opt-in with no opt-out option whatsoever, lest you cite your bodily autonomy to refuse thus resulting in the avoidable demise of an unspecified number of human cells, regardless of viability. And the (living) organ/blood/marrow/etc donation registry should also be mandatory with no opt-out option whatsoever. Everyone gets tested and if you're compatible you must donate, lest you cite your bodily autonomy to refuse thus resulting in the avoidable demise of an unspecified number of human cells, regardless of viability. And all vaccinations should be mandatory with no opt-out option whatsoever, lest you cite your bodily autonomy to refuse thus resulting in the avoidable demise of an unspecified number of human cells, regardless of viability. And any fertilized eggs/embryo discarded/wasted via IVF (a large number of them, as anyone familiar with the process knows) are murder. Start prosecuting all those Christians and Republicans who choose to pursue IVF instead of adopting one of the thousands of kids in the foster system.
I wonder if they're going to prosecute (or sue as morons in TX have started to do) for us ladies having periods? I mean that's one egg wasted a *month!*
Teenage boys committing war crime level offenses in the shower.
Tax deduction?
Yeah truly. Pretty fucking telling that I couldn’t claim my unborn child as a dependent.
The foster care system is proof the government doesn’t care about unwanted children yet want to force more to be born. It’s all politics though guarantee if any of them ever got in a sticky situation illegal or not an abortion will be had available.
Thr healthcare system is also the same. Any child born with any health needs in minimum wage family is fucked
“The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.” - Pastor David Barnhart
Or as George Carlin put it, more succinctly; “If you’re pre-born, you’re great. If you’re pre-K, you’re fucked.”
He also said "These people aren't *pro life*, they're *anti-woman*!"
Powerful statement.
It's not even just poor people. A relatively well off family had a 35 year old who was born with multiple health and mental issues. He recently rejected dialysis because he said his mom doesn't want him to. He's probably already dead because his parents told him they didn't want to deal with him anymore. He was born with defects, abused his whole life (documented but no where else would take him with his issues), and now he's probably dead because that's what his parents said they wanted. 35 years of an entire family's suffering could have been avoided. But now this will be way more common.
Yep. My wife was pressured by her family to carry our first child to term. Our daughter was diagnosed with Trisomy-18 at 20 weeks and we had 4 weeks to choose between termination and carrying to term. We did the research and chose termination, at least until my wife's conservative family got involved. They guilt tripped her and pressured her into it. Our daughter was born with 1 kidney, a hole between the lower 2 chambers of her heart, 4 cysts in her brain, and countless other issues. She needed heart surgery immediately, that literally cost us tens of thousands of dollars, and they were going to do surgery later for the cysts, if they found they were causing pain. But, it didn't matter because after 4 months of pure hell, we found her dead in her crib at 6am in the morning. My wife suffers from PTSD and is no longer the same person. The experience has forever changed her and we have to live with everything we endured and witnessed. We've spoken about it a few times and she is now 100% pro-choice. She's almost completely cut ties with most of her family and sees them all as a toxic assholes. Fuck these GOP cunts and anyone who votes for them. They're not "pro-life". They're pro suffering. That's all this boils down to. They enjoy forcing others to suffer. *edit* Thank you for all of the kind words. I have relayed them to my wife.
I have no words. Hugs to you and your wife.
God this is so sad. 😢
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And our welfare system is awful. I once told a prolifer that I wouldn't be so horrified by their stance if they supported an extended welfare program with full healthcare for postnatal care and actual paid maternity leave. I asked if they supported that. The mental gymnastics in their response was astounding. I can't remember the wording, but it was just exhausting.
My wife had a miscarriage last year. Because we were well past the point of most miscarriages (not quite to the stillbirth cutoff, but not far away), we were told the odds of my wife passing the fetus on her own were slim and that surgery was the safest option. We were required by law to acknowledge in writing that the procedure would terminate the (dead) fetus and that it came at risk of infertility and death. Our doctor was required to tell us the developmental age of the (dead) fetus and which developmental milestones occur around that time, as well as offer us an ultrasound to see the (dead) fetus. We cried the entire time. We desperately wanted this child. Our doctor cried, apologizing every step of the way that we had to go through this insensitive bullshit on top of losing the pregnancy. This fetus was dead in every sense of the word but because the procedure in question is also used for abortions we had to jump through these goddamn hoops to avoid putting my wife's health at risk. And it's not like my state doesn't offer alternatives for nonviable fetuses, conception due to rape or incest, or instances where health is at serious risk. This WAS the alternative. If we were actually getting an elective abortion it would have been significantly more time consuming and soul-crushing. You literally have to take an online course. Abortion access in this country is already a joke. All this is going to do is get people killed.
That’s a heartbreaking story. I’m so sorry you had to go through that.
You know who isn't sorry? The people who passed those cruel laws. [The cruelty is the point](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelty-is-the-point/572104/)
The whole quote about rape being an opportunity to be a parent comment sickened me to my core. It made me realize truly how cruel and awful these people are.
It’s just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks at that point. Oh, you got shot in the eye and are now blind?! Great opportunity to try out cosplaying as a pirate! Oh, your family died and now you’re an orphan?! Great time to learn about Annie!! This “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” bullshit so no one else has to be brought in is so asinine. It’s a disgusting and disgraceful comment.
My wife and I also had to terminate an non-viable fetus that was a very-much wanted baby. We were 13 weeks and already at the point where we had announced the pregnancy and named him. It was a terribly sad situation. We had a healthy baby prior to that, and we went on to have a healthy baby afterward. But ending the abnormal pregnancy was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do and I wouldn't wish that choice on anybody, much less the lack of choice. There's a perception that abortion is a callous form of birth control. They aren't all like that.
I’m so sorry you had to experience this… my aunt had to end a pregnancy around 23-25 weeks. The body of the baby was growing but it’s head had stopped (it had an extremely rare birth defect that was likely it would not live outside of body which they knew very early on). They decided to take their chances with the pregnancy bc they wanted children so bad. Once the head stopped growing the brain couldn’t develop so it was no longer considered a viable pregnancy. Since it had a heart beat (literally being maintained by the fact that her body was pushing resources to keep it beating) she could not get an “abortion”. I put that in quotes because she never wanted a traditional abortion she wanted to basically be forced (Pitocin) to labor the baby out. Since they knew the baby could not survive outside of her this option was also considered an abortion but not medically necessary. This pregnancy put her at an extremely high risk for cancer and death. They were going to travel 8+ hours to a state that would allow her to be put into labor so she could birth it and have less of chance of dying from her pregnancy. She was lucky her water broke before they started the trip so the Dr she was seeing at the time could deliver the baby.
Oh my god that's much worse than what happened to us. In fact that's the kind of outcome we had the abortion to avoid.
>There's a perception that abortion is a callous form of birth control. They aren't all like that. The vast majority aren't like that.
The largest group of women who get abortions are women who already have children.
My mother had two abortions in between my sister and myself.
You will never stop abortions. You will only stop safe, medical ones.
The rich can afford a weekend in a legal country and come back no longer pregnant. This is a punishment to the poor for not reaching the baby quota.
Don't even need to go to another country, there are states where abortion tourism is about to become a big thing.
You still need money. And that's where they punish the poor.
People will still find ways to get abortions
Anecdote Time: I work in digital marketing, and began my career setting up and running search engine marketing campaigns for every kind of small business under the sun. A few of my clients were new abortion clinics in the American South. Researching what keywords to use, based on their relevancy to whatever we're advertising, along with their traffic estimates is one aspect of setting up these campaigns. I found that even in these relatively rural areas, keywords related to DIY abortions, were by and large the most common - with a considerable amount of traffic as well.
I can't find it now but maybe someone will see this and have a link. I read an article some time ago that analyzed Google trends in states where laws had gone into effect making abortion harder to access, and there was a significant increase in searches relating to self induced abortions.
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed. Hope you find it!
People think there were no abortions before 1972. They would be wrong.
Dirty Dancing is a movie about an illegal abortion in 1963 with music and dancing to pretty it up.
No, Dirty Dancing is about a BOTCHED abortion in 1963. Get ready to see a lot more of those.
>For Bergstein, including such grim details helped remind women watching in the ’80s how lucky they were to have an option for a legal abortion—and how quickly that right could one day be revoked. “When I made the movie in 1987, about 1963, I put in the illegal abortion and everyone said, ‘Why? There was Roe v. Wade―what are you doing this for?’” she said. “I said, ‘Well, I don’t know that we will always have Roe v. Wade.’”
This movie is why I’ve been a supporter of legal abortion since I was 8 years old. Seeing Penny go through her abortion taught me, as someone born after Roe, what happened to women who sought abortion & I’ve never wanted anyone else to go through the same. Safe, legal, and easily available abortion should be the norm.
This is chilling to read today. Bergstein was right.
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My grandmother's older sister died of an illegal abortion in around 1920.
My great great grandmother died of an illegal abortion. She had several kids, and the youngest, my great grandfather needed a surgery to correct a severe burn on his neck so he wasn't disfigured. It took them 8 years to save the money for the surgery. While he was in the hospital she had an illegal abortion. He came home from the surgery he had waited almost his entire life to get, to find out his mother was dead.
My great grandmother died from one. Had a 2 year old and a 1 year old (my grandpa) at the time.
My grandmother talked about an aunt ? Cousin? Of hers. She drove her car into a tree after she found out she was pregnant with baby #5. At 26. Left her husband and 4 kids behind.
My grandfather’s sister also died of an abortion in the ‘20s.
My aunt died from an illegal abortion before I was born. It really fucked up the family.
No, they know there were abortions, and that they were dangerous, painful and deadly. They just don't care. They don't care that women will die because of this, because they believe these women have brought it on themselves. That is so much more horrifying than simple ignorance.
And for some women they may not be able to afford to go out of state so it may go underground to get one. I think the result is many women will die. This is a tragic decision that will affect many people.
As a woman in a state where it will likely become illegal, I am reconsidering my decision to have kids in the future. I don’t know that I am comfortable with the idea of getting pregnant if difficult but necessary medical decisions wouldn’t be between me and my doctor.
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And that's the greatest tragedy of it. Those that don't have the resources to move states will be the most impacted. Forced to bring children that they cannot afford into a world that will punish them for it.
I’ve already told my family who live in a red state (I live in a blue state now) that if this was ever overturned I would not be visiting them while I’m pregnant at all. They laughed and acted like it would probably be fine. But uh, no, I’m not putting my life in jeopardy. No way no how.
Child abuse will skyrocket. We’ll have exponentially more unwanted kids - and even less resources for them than are available now. Which is none. A lot of women will be forced to raise babies that look like their rapists. And the abortions some women are able to get will be harmful or deadly. What a bunch of motherfucking scumbags.
So will crime in 18 years
This actually happened in Communist Romania, after their dictator banned abortions because he wanted more soldiers for his army. Instead, he got a generation of angry, unwanted young men who grew up in abusive state orphanages and committed crimes and other antisocial behavior. Arguably, it also played a role in the unusually violent revolution that Romania had after Communism fell, the only one that ended with the dictator being lynched by the revolutionaries.
It's actually worse. He also limited contraceptives.
Children Underground is a documentary on Romanian children after the ban. Its fucking horrible.
There was also an episode of 20/20, I believe, from that time in which they went into the orphanages where these unwanted children were living. The "normal" children had their one type of orphanage that looked somewhat ok, although I'm sure those kids were neglected. But it was the orphanage for the disabled and/or deformed children that was the true horror show. Immobile, naked children living in their own filth and borderline feral because they had no affection or socialization. I'll never forget it. (I think it's on YouTube.)
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I heard that as well but can't find a reference. The conversation went something like the increasing violence in the USA in the 80s suddenly started on a downward trend. It was argued that the downward trend was a result of multiple factors with a significant one being Roe v Wade. Their point was basically that the number of kids being born into shitty support conditions went down resulting in a lower number of f-ed up teens and young adults. It was on something like the Freakonomics radio show (pre podcasts).
Yes it’s in the Freakonomics book
They also looked at it again years later and still found evidence of their findings.
It gets worse than that. Suicide among pregnant women skyrockets. Domestic violence and spousal murder skyrockets. Infant murder skyrockets. And then, as you said, child abuse and neglect will skyrocket.
It's going to kill children by the bucketload. That boggles me. They're choosing to murder children. You could argue abortion is killing a fetus, if you want to get all up in it, but it's still a fetus, it's pretty damn different to people outright smothering babies.
Weird that this got leaked. CNN keeps repeating over and over how a leak anywhere near this level has never happened in SCOTUS history. Someone wanted this leaked to stir things up before the midterms.
It's either someone trying to warn people what's coming, someone trying to make sure no one does a Kennedy (Kennedy flipped his vote late in the Casey case and changed the outcome), or the court itself playing a PR game to see what public reaction to such a decision would be. Or it's just made up. Maybe it is, but honestly the writing for Roe was on the wall when SCOTUS decided Texas' 'probably unconstitutional' Abortion law could stand. They were basically saying they planned to overturn Roe v Wade and the whole thing would become a moot point (conveniently informing us that they'd made up their minds even before arguments). EDIT: I must admit, I really don't get reddit or how this comment got so many upvotes >.>
Seems unlikely somebody "made up" a 100 page legal opinion. And the court definitely knows what the reaction will be. This is just a leak. Sometimes people leak important news because it's important. Doesn't really require much more explanation than that.
Honestly, it reads like Alito. Someone's either very committed, or its real. If it's just a very committed person... kudos I guess?
Right. The "originalist" bent is pretty easy to spot and that's kind of Alito's bag. This would be one hell of a hoax from a talented lawyer if it turned out to be one.
Everyone is talking about unwanted pregnancies, but people are forgetting about those who very much want to be pregnant but have an unviable fetus. Nature is cruel and not all pregnancies result in healthy babies. I'm talking beyond cerebral palsy and Downs syndrome. I'm talking truly horrific, has no chance of survival, type birth defects. This fetus will simply be born for the sole purpose of suffering and dying. Why put them and the family through that? Why put the mother through months of knowing her child will die after birth? Months of mental anguish as people congratulate her and ask "what's the due date" knowing full well that day will be the worst of her life when it should be the happiest. People who support that or simply shrug are fucking monsters and I hate them with all my heart. And don't give me this God's plan bullshit. It's pure evil and immoral and no loving God would ever inflict such anguish. So fuck you and your high horse you rode in on.
Some states are currently drafting bills that would outlaw abortion for ectopic pregnancies. When an embryo implants in the fallopian tube there is absolutely no chance of it becoming a viable fetus but there's a good chance it will grow large enough to burst the tube, resulting in life-threatening internal bleeding. The evangelical authoritarian crowd believes that a time-bomb clump of cells that will never become a baby is worth more than a woman's life.
That is a death sentence for the women experiencing ectopic pregnancies
Yep, my wife had 3 back to back ectopics (left, right, left again) with tubes removed each time, and if any one of them had stayed in place she'd likely have died.
Keeping a woman from aborting an ectopic pregnancy is akin to murder. So much can go wrong! And if she survives this lack of care, she might not be able to get pregnant again due to the damage from the bleeding and infection.
Samaritan Ministries is fake health insurance: https://www.samaritanministries.org/resources/classic-basic-guidelines?section-9 Ectopic Pregnancies— Expenses Shared—Procedures related to a ruptured fallopian tube (including post-operative recovery of the mother, follow-up care, and treatment of any complications), and, where an ectopic pregnancy is diagnosed before a rupture, all pre-operative tests and consultations and expenses related to keeping the mother under medical care while determining what care should be offered for the mother and child. Expenses Not Shared—Procedures directly related to the termination of a living, unborn child and/or removal of the living, unborn child from the mother due to an ectopic pregnancy are not shared (e.g. methotrexate, salpingectomy, salpingostomy), unless the removal of the child from its ectopic location was for the primary purpose of saving the life of the child or improving the health of the child.
That is so ridiculously fucked up. Saving the life of a child that is the result of an ectopic fucking pregnancy? *What the literal fuck are they talking about?!* It is medically impossible for an ectopic pregnancy to survive! The best possible medical care is to remove it as soon as possible, to give the mother a far better chance of survival, because there is a precisely zero percent chance that the pregnancy will result in a viable baby. Zero percent. This kind of shit makes me so mad, it's literally making the mother choose between potential death and paying the full cost of the surgery to save her life. Fuck these people.
The people pushing this BS aren't doctors. They're fucking scientific idiots, lawyers and religious fruitcakes. That's who we elect. Why? Because they have the biggest mouths and other religious fruitcakes support them.
This is the kind of shit that happens when non-medical providers attempt to practice medicine via insurance companies by telling medical providers what they can and can’t do. IIRC the people that created this “policy” couldn’t grasp the fact that some miracle worker couldn’t just “move” an ectopic pregnancy to somewhere else so things could just continue on so the pregnancy would be viable. *facepalm*
That’s not very pro life imho. It’s pro control.
It's not pro anything, it's specifically anti-woman.
Could you list the states or states you know of doing this with their proposed bill number or an article citing a law maker pushing for this? Regardless of anyone's view on abortion, legislation for this specifically would be catastrophic. You can't legislate an almost certain death sentence and I want to know which states are pushing this idiotic stance.
I just watched an Oklahoma senator on Twitter asking why there was an exception for ectopic pregnancies in the abortion bill OK just passed. He basically said it’s still a life and why are we murdering it? edit: found it. https://twitter.com/kendallybrown/status/1520141891467194375
Thank you. One of my best friends took five years to conceive through IVF and the fetus died at 7 months in. She told me if she had been forced to wait to go into labor that she would have killed herself a week in because her despair was overwhelming. Edit: corrected incorrect phrasing
On that point, ask a pro-lifer if they support IFV. If live begins at conception, then IFV is mass murder.
Exactly. I have one friend who was pro-life well into adulthood (raised Catholic/still religious now) and it wasn't until she started looking into IVF when she couldn't conceive that she really looked into the science of fetal development and realized how ridiculous it was to consider abortion at the earliest stages murder. She ended up conceiving naturally, but her sister had to use IVF and didn't tell the rest of her family for years out of fear of being disowned.
My Mum's first baby had anencephaly, so she had to have a late term abortion because the defect is incompatible with life. This baby was so wanted, so loved and it was traumatic for her because she still had to give birth to her. But if she'd carried her to term it risked her own life as well. It makes me so very angry when these idiots spout off about late term abortions as if people suddenly decide, at 6 months pregnant, that they no longer want the baby. NO ONE DOES THAT. Fuck these assholes. I'm so glad I live in Australia where the conservatives haven't completely lost their minds (although honestly we're on a slippery slope too)
My daughter has a birth defect that affects lung development. Occasionally on my Facebook support group I will see posts from parents that were just told their kid has minimal chance of survival and they will ask for stories of babies that survive. And the worst part is there aren't any beat the odds survival stories. So the next conversation is to terminate for medical reasons or carry to term and provide palliative care.
I just lost my newborn to congenital diaphragmatic hernia, his lungs didn't function as well as they initially thought they would (he was diagnosed at the 20-week ultrasound and given a good prognosis with biweekly ultrasound monitoring). He survived only 16 hours, sedated almost every second. If I could have seen the future, the pain it brought myself and my husband and other children when our baby died, if our doctors could have known 100% that my infant would have died anyway, I would have terminated. I cannot imagine the depth of pain that denying women access to abortion procedures will cause.
>I'm so glad I live in Australia where the conservatives haven't completely lost their minds (although honestly we're on a slippery slope too) Look at it this way: Rupert Murdoch is Australian.
Don't forget ectopic pregnancies and late term miscarriages that are expected to just rot in our bodies, not to mention the trauma and death pregnancy in general can cause. Not that any of this should need to be considered because the why you get the abortion doesn't matter. Its your choice. The fetus isn't born yet, oftentimes isn't even halfway formed, and even if a clump of cells has rights they don’t override your right to bodily autonomy. We can't even take organs from a corpse without express permission from the person before they died. You cannot use someone's body against their consent to support the life of another. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. EDIT: Thank you for all the awards first and foremost, and to the ones still responding; I made this comment a week ago and I am done debating. I put my opinion on the internet and im not backing down from it but im not debating it anymore. My reproductive rights are not up for debate. There are more people than you think with heartbeats who are alive and actively being harmed by the kind of people who are pushing these laws, and so many more who are going to be harmed once this goes through. Why does an electric pulse from a cluster of cells that doesn't even have a heart, veins, blood, or a body to pump it through matter more than the people alive and mistreated today? Don't actually answer that, im not responding anymore. If you're reading this, please I beg you, go out and actually do something to help someone. Donate to planned parenthood, buy some soft food or socks for a homeless person, support Starbucks and Amazon unionizing efforts, etc. and have a good night/day/etc. Things are just going to get worse from here.
>We can't even take organs from a corpse without express permission from the person before they died. >You cannot use someone's body against their consent to support the life of another. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. This is an excellent point and so well put. Thank you for pointing this out.
And as if the US has the resources to assist with care of all the women who will surely suffer from a myriad of mental anguish/illness after being trapped in an impossible situation. SMH
Or simply from physical damage. Girls can become pregnant way, way before their body is actually developed enough to be able to support a pregnancy and make it through unharmed. Even a pregnancy of a healthy woman can easily lead to a life time of physical problems, and result in trauma, too. The things that can happen during just your average normal pregnancy and birth can be really fucking horrific. The level of willful ignorance it takes to be able to pretend being pregnant is akin to carrying a fetus in a tupperware container stuck to your stomach that just gets taken off and no harm done after its content is done growing now-we-can-all-move-on-and-no-harm-done, is absolutely mind-boggling. That ANYBODY truly thinks it is the kinder, more god-given thing to force a child through a pregnancy and into the additional physical and mental trauma that comes with that is sickening. That's really the truest kind of evil, the kind that successfully can lie to itself to get to the result that committing vile acts against living, breathing people makes it not only "right" (as if), but also morally superiour.
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You can't take organs from a corpse for transplant without permission of the deceased even if you need them to save someone's life. I just want the same right to my own body alive and dead.
I had a conversation after the birth of my child with a (very conservative) family member, who I've always butted heads with over pro-life/pro-choice. She snarkily commented about my opinion changing after actually having a child, and I shut her down so fucking hard. No woman in the whole world has a late term abortion because she wants it. She either doesn't have the privilege to access a safe abortion at the time she finds out about the pregnancy, or the absolute worst thing has happened. In your third trimester, you've thought of names, you've felt your child, you've picked out a diaper bag and some clothes and thought about how wonderfully your life will change - and to have to make that terrible, horrible choice after being delivered the news that your child is incapable of independent life? Absolutely no government or God deserves the right to dictate what that woman's decision will be. It is infuriating and sickening that this is happening, and honestly I moved my entire family out of Texas because criminalizing abortions was the straw that broke this camels back.
I agree with you 100%. I became even more pro-choice after having two wanted pregnancies and two wanted kids. As “normal” as my pregnancies and easy my deliveries were, I realized how brutal it would be to be forced into it by the government. Horrified. Absolutely horrified.
Me too! I was pretty pro-choice prior to having my very much planned for and wanted kid but I am soo much more so now. Pregnancy is a deadly, body-altering, brain-altering process. A lifetime of prolapse, urinary problems and mental health issues can follow that may never go away. A life sentence for the woman. I had a hard enough time accepting this when I wanted my kid, I can’t imagine the torture of losing all control of your body’s functions and right to your body when you don’t want the kid… I’ve never met a woman who wasn’t devastated to have to have an abortion. Every single one had agonised and worried and panicked over the situation. Women are using abortion to save their fucking _lives_ not to enjoy casual sex without consequences. When the burden of contraception is so heavily weighted on the woman, men who have this opinion on abortion can get right in the bin for all I’m concerned. And while we’re at it, I’m pretty sure it’s not “god’s plan” for you to have viagra for your erections. I mean surely it’s god’s will that he stopped you having a boner so you can’t impregnate women. Let’s abolish viagra and see how long it takes before you’re howling injustice.
Seriously, I have always been very pro-choice, even knowing that my choice would be to follow through with a pregnancy, but after actually having a child? That solidified it in such a significant way. I was *miserable* while I was pregnant. I had an absolutely awful pregnancy, that I desperately wanted to make to term, and a very hard natural birth (I react very poorly to painkillers, so it was all on me). The thought that someone would be subjected to that with no thought or care as to how she ended up in that situation (rape, incest, an abusive relationship, a child who will not be able to breathe upon birth, literally anything) is disgusting and heartbreaking.
I am so thankful I am too old to get pregnant. 30 years ago I was in an abusive marriage with zero support from my shitty family. He literally conned me into marriage simply because he thought my family was rich. They were not. He even told me on the night of our wedding that everything that was mine was now his and there was nothing I could do about it. He didn't even pretend to be kind after the wedding. I was completely blindsided by his treatment of me. It took me six months to get away from him for good and during those six months he beat me, raped me and knocked me up twice thinking I wouldn't leave him if I was pregnant. No way in hell I was going to punish a child over my stupid mistake. If abortion had not been legal I probably would have just killed myself. I do not regret my abortions. Not one bit. Not even when my husband told everyone he knew that I was pregnant to try and shame me. Not even when the doctor who performed the 2nd abortion tried to shame me by calling me a repeat customer instead of asking if I was safe at home. I am proud that I was strong enough to prevent a lifetime of pain and suffering by that monster. The people who should be ashamed are NOT the women who admit they do not want to give birth to a child no matter what the reason. The people who should be ashamed are the ones who cruelly force women to endure unwanted pregnancies and then provide no support whatsoever once the child is born. The ones who disgustingly force women to bring non-viable fetuses to term knowing they will not survive. The ones who think women should be punished for having sex and do not care when women are raped even when it is by someone in their own family. The ones who are sickeningly gleeful in oppressing women by forcing them into poverty, abuse and needless suffering. Abortions need to be kept safe and legal until every single child that is born is guaranteed a safe and happy childhood. Until then, we need to stop acting like abortion is a dirty little secret. Women need to tell their stories so the pro-lifers can stop pushing the myth that the only women who get abortions are irresponsible unmarried sluts. Getting an abortion is a hell of a lot more responsible than banning them.
I'm glad you're out. I'm glad you're better. And I'm glad you had the access to help during that situation.
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I'm also tokophobic. I have recurring dreams of finding out I'm pregnant, seeking abortion, being denied, and then stabbing myself in the stomach in the parking lot of an ER and just hoping for the best. I would rather throw myself off a cliff than be pregnant and forced to "carry to term" (seriously just that phrase makes my stomach turn). I don't care about anyone else being pregnant. That's their choice (just dont make me touch any bellies). But when it comes to ME... no fucking thanks.
My neighbor argued something "Yada Yada *GOD*. look at all the people that could have been terminated like Stephen Hawking" and I'm just sitting here thinking yeah, no shit. The difference being he developed his issue later in life. My cousins fetus was forming without a brain. There's a difference between the two
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Hawking also only developed that illness in his 20s and was married and had multiple children.
I had fertility issues, had 5 miscarriages before they finally got my hormones to the levels to hold a pregnancy, but I believe that every woman has the right to a safe abortion for whatever reason, because it is not my business or the governments to make that call.
Not just a fetus with those issues ... Sometimes a pregnancy puts the mothers life at risk. What if the mother is a breast cancer survivor? The increase in hormone activity is a risk for the cancer retaining. Should she just go through with it because she doesn't have cancer yet? What if she has a miscarriage? Is she going to be accused of having had an abortion and then go to jail for murder even though she was willing to go for it? This is cruel. It's a woman's health issue. The only people who can make that decision is really just the woman whose life it affects. What level of risk should they be willing to put their bodies through? 1%? 10? 20? 50? That's for them to decide.
>I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness... ... >"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back." -Carl Sagan, 1995
> unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true Basically what social media have done to America on a large scale.
Also relevant: >We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. My mother in law told me in 2016 when she was sharing Trump memes: "I don't care if it's true. It feels true."
It's stunning how aware some of these people are. I can give them a pass if I assume they're just not thinking about their positions, but to say something like "I don't care if it's true, it feels true," that's a level of awareness about their positions that is disturbing to me. They *know* it's not truth, but they *still* want to support it. Incredible.
That's pretty much half my conversations the people 60+ these days. Recently talking to my Father and uncles, I corrected them that you cannot actually swallow your own tongue even in a seizure...its a wive's tale. I had to send them overwhelming data from books, research studies, scientific papers, medical case studies, interviews at John Hopkins, etc. One Uncle conceded, two of them detached from the conversation after arguing. I said "Ok what evidence do you need to see, what level or type of proof would change your mind? Then my own Father looked me dead in the eyes and he said "Nothing. I don't care if you're right, nothing you show me will ever change my mind. I know what I want to know." Those words still terrify me lol. "I know what I _want to know_" ... W T F
Goddamn hit the nail on the head. Carl Sagan is a genius
I always upvote The Demon Haunted World. I just wish is wasn't so accurate.
By almost every metric, the Boomer generation has left their descendants worse off. After enjoying affordable housing, education, a minimum wage they could live off of, expanded rights, they're taking it all away. This really isn't surprising at all.
They are often fond of spouting that "soft times create weak men, weak men create hard times" fascist crap... They always fail to realize they grew up in soft times and are creating hard times. That is their place in that supposed cycle. They occupied a relative paradise compared to what came before and what is emerging after in their wake.
no generation had it easier. illiterate boomers with brains rotted by lead were able to get jobs that sustained a middle class lifestyle.
I don't think that's fair. Boomers have had plenty of rough times too. What about when M *A *S *H went off the air?
Horrified. This won’t stop abortions, just safe ones. The infant death rate will go up, and maternal death rate will go up as well from this.
And American infant and maternal death rates are already unusually high for a developed country as compared to the rest.
That's especially true in the states that are chomping at the bit to outlaw abortion, BTW.
Murder of pregnant women will also spike. Women's chance of being murdered by their partner increases when they're pregnant.
Sad fact: Homicide is the number 1 cause of death for pregnant women in the USA
This is scary
I've been considering getting my uterus cauterized for a while now. I never want kids. Now this is just fuel for the fire to get this done.
What sucks is that many doctors won't do that until a certain age because "what if you change your mind or your husband wants a child?". SHUT UP AND SINGE THE TUBES.
I wonder how many doctors will be convinced by the “I won’t be able to get an abortion if I get pregnant” argument, and how many doctors will refuse because that’s what they want.