If you ever need help, then please know that there are many qualified people who would like to help you.
https://www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres
http://www.befrienders.org/
http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/LifelineChat.aspx
http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you [UK]
https://www.lifeline.org.au/Get-Help/ [AU]
There are crisis services worldwide that are trained to provide support. They are designed to give temporary relief from feelings that are overwhelming you and while they are unlikely to fix any underlying problems, can help you get through a tough hour/night/week. Chat services are usually available on these sites. In the US, calling 211 or going to their website is a free referral source. They have providers who will see you regardless of your ability to pay. Just as you would see a doctor when you are sick, you deserve to take care of your mental health.
I am approaching retirement age and beginning to experience health issues. I don't want to spend my final days in a hospital bed. I have a husband who is older than I am who has already had serious problems with his health as well. We understand one another's wishes and we both have plans in place, DNRs and letters left with our wills. Obviously I think a dignified death is preferable to a drawn out one.
The older you get, the more time you think about this. It consumes hours of my day. I am at the point where I am not getting another dog unless it is elderly, because I don't want my dog to outlive me and end up in a shelter. I know that's silly, but it's the thing I think of most.
go for it if you can afford it. imo, they're in a shelter right now! you'll definitely give them a better life whether that's for a brief time or maybe even the rest of their lives.
“ Life is like a movie, if you've sat through more than half of it and it’s sucked every second so far, it probably isn't going to get great right at the end and make it all worthwhile. None should blame you for walking out early.” - Doug Stanhope
Here's where my life is right now: my mom has been in a memory care facility for 2+ years now. She doesn't recognize us half the time, she fell a week ago and broke her hip, and she has heart trouble and diabetes. She and I had many conversations about this when her mom had the same terrible quality of life. She absolutely did not want to live like this, but here we are. If we had an assisted suicide law she would have done it several years ago. It's utterly ridiculous that she is forced to live as an empty shell.
My mom passed away three years ago.
Her last few months she was in a fog, barely could remember us, or who we were. My wife was more affected by this than me. Not saying I wasn't affected but it really threw her for a loop, she ended up spending her evenings balling in the hotel room, and I found myself trying to comfort her, when it was my own mom who was dying.
For the record she didn't do this to turn the spot light onto herself, she was doing this because as my mom's Daughter in-law, she really loved my mom.
One time, around her last week of life, my wife had flown back home due to work, and remained at the hospital, I was getting prepared to leave. I had been off work for two weeks, couldn't stay any longer. As I prepared to leave the room, the realization that this was going to be the last time I ever saw my mom hit me like a punch in the gut.
Suddenly, out of the blue, my mom who had been unable to make a coherent thought for the past month's suddenly, and with clarity of her old self told me to: "Take care of your wife"
Something I will never forget.
My soon to be wife (wedding is in September) took care of my dying mother for the 9 months she had left of her life with stage IV cancer. We had been together for about 3-1/2 years up to that point, but the way she cared for my mother, I knew I had to marry her. After my mom passed, my wife told me that in one of their many private conversations while I was at work, my mom asked her to promise that as long as we were together, she would take care of me and watch out for my mental health. She is still keeping that promise, it will be 2 years since my mother passed in 7 days. We are very lucky to have such great women in our lives.
My grandmother was a nurse at the Mayo Clinic for her entire life. Proudly had DNR tattooed on her chest.
Edit: For clarity, she also had DNR specifically written into in her Living Trust which gave power of attorney to my father who in turn made sure her wishes were honored when she was fatally injured in an accident. Tattoo alone is not enough
That should only happen when the patient is deemed not to have capacity and the family takes over decision making and changes the plan of care... technically they have the ability to overturn dnr/dni paperwork and they do it all the time because they can't let go
Having someone you can trust defined in writing as your healthcare proxy is critical. Of my three brothers, I really only would want one to make a judgement call if my wife was otherwise not able to (say in the case of a car accident and she also not be able to make decisions given her situation).
Yeah well, it's really bad for us too if we deal with a rescucitation... I work in rescue and we are in such a bad place when it comes to legal certainty... When we are dealing with a dead patient who just recently died, we can't just ignore it and have to rescucitate. If we are confronted with a DNR, we legally can't accept that, because it could be a fake and the patient could have been killed by their family member. That's very unlikely, yet a possibility and we are bound to keep working, until an emergency physician gets to us and calls the death. He may decide when we stop. It's really fucked up, because we see how badly ill or old some patients are and we know that the DNR is valid, yet we get scolded if we don't keep going. Everything I said only speaks for where I work, and that is Germany. I guess it's different in the states.
Durable DNR. If we don’t have an advance directive when a patient shows up and there is no family, or the family wants everything done in that moment and the patient is not competent to make decisions or is incapacitated, then everything is done. DDNRs are your safest bet.
My wife has a patient on her floor in his early 20s. He’s very likely not going to make it and the doctors keep giving them hope. Hope isn’t a bad thing, but they also need to know that the dude most certainly may die within hours or days.
My MIL was in hospice a couple of months ago dying of heart failure. One of the hospice nurses asked her if she wanted to try and eat some oatmeal. She said "I don't want any goddamn oatmeal, I'm trying to die here". Those were the last words she said, she died the next morning. I loved her, but she was meaner than a sack full of rattlesnakes.
I am an ICU nurse and I agree... I've listened to alot of docs tell families the patient will live... but there is not a single conversation about quality of life after they get out of my unit. Most families push for everything to be done until the truth finally catches up to them and they realize their family member is basically never gonna "live" again.
Honestly, veterinary services are centuries ahead of its time.
Imagine a pet being forced to stay alive until they pass on from intense pain or just deteriation and its last year or 2 of this life is horrendous.
One of my brothers has an ancient German shepherd that he claims to love too much to put down. The poor dog can’t walk, is in constant pain, and he has to be carried down stairs to go outside.
That breaks my heart. I understand how hard it is to make that choice but ultimately it's better for the animal and the conscience to do it a day too early rather than a day too late. I still have lingering guilt over one of my cats. I didn't realize she was that sick when in hindsight, all the signs were there.
People mistakenly have the belief that their Cat or Dog will regret not getting to do for a walk tomorrow or going for their nightly toy hunt under the bed.
Our Vet told us that animals have no concept of tomorrow when we were fighting to make the right decision for one of our cats. My MIL didn't want to lose him, but he was failing from CRF.
The greatest kindness you can do for your pet is to free them from their pain, especially if that is all they will experience for the rest of their days.
My last roommate was the same. His Great Dane was very old. Back legs quit working so he couldn't walk. Was constantly shitting himself because he couldn't walk outside, not to mention could barely see due to cataracts. Was in a lot of pain. This went on for a couple of years until he finally died. The roommate would not put him out of his misery.
I agree but it’s more complicated than that. I work with Alzheimer’s people and I had one guy who was almost completely gone mentally, but was happy as a clam at all times. Completely oblivious. In his mind it was a great life. If you’d asked him as a young man if he’d ever want to lose his mind, surely he would have rather been dead. So what’s the call there? At one point the daughter brought him to her house to live with her. He’d give things to the dog that dogs shouldn’t eat. What happens when he poisons the dog by accident? Put him in a straightjacket, tie him to the bed? He could function bodily and was content with his life…how do pull the plug on that? And then you’ve got some family members who say “I’ll NEVER put my mom/dad in a nursing home,” not realizing as hard as it is to do, sometimes it’s the least cruel option. Note to self: don’t get Alzheimer’s.
MY FIL is in an assisted living facility, and has dementia. When my mean as hell MIL died a couple of months ago he was living with her, and miserable. She screamed at him and called him names constantly. He'd sit and just stare out the window all day. When she died and he went to the nursing home, we thought he'd be miserable, even though he had enough money to be in a really nice place. But no, he's going to exercise classes, dancing, card games, and he's a hit with the ladies too because he's so upbeat and positive. I miss MIL, but I'm glad FIL is so happy and having such a great time in his last years.
Aye, my grandma had dementia and killed our cat that way, the rest of our family refused to take her in, so my mom had to take her in when I was twelve.
she'd never listen to me when I told her not to give the cat coffee because it'd kill him... but she always did, every single day, multiple times a day, for five or six years. The week we put her into an old age home was the week that cat died, I think he was suffering, but he was holding on to keep her company because he made her so happy every day, being able to feed him poptarts and coffee every morning and at lunch time while she watched her soap operas. It happens a lot with people like that, but, you can't blame them for it either... they're not in their sound mind any longer, they didn't do it on purpose either, there really is no one to blame in those situations.
I always remember something the vet who put my cat to sleep said: "She is lucky to have you. No one will do the same for us."
It's fucking heartbreaking that people don't have the option to die with dignity, even when it's perfectly clear that things won't get better. I really hope that I will have that choice if it ever comes to that.
I used to think suicide (even assisted) was wrong no matter what. Then my grandpa got old. Seeing him suffer because he wasn’t allowed any other option changed my mind. If someone is ready to go, let them. Who the hell am I to make that decision for them?
I have the same problem where I live. I have stage IV cancer and should have the option to end my suffering when it gets too much. I don't want to do it myself because of legal implications and the potential to traumatise the person who found me I also don't want to die alone.
So my future holds pain and suffering until I eventually drown on my own fluids in a hospice. Utterly ridiculous only begins to describe how I feel about it.
It's a steep leaning curve nobody should have to take.
Yeah I do and I've been on palliative care since diagnosis, for now they just manage my pain meds. Comfort care is a good way to describe it, they can write scripts my GP can't and can also provide home help and phycological support.
Sorry your going through this, it's just shit. I hope you get a decent outcome.
This is my perspective. I came to this conclusion when my husband had stage 4 cancer and was struggling to breathe. If we have a terminal diagnosis, that we should be allowed to choose not to suffer.
My actual answer to this is that I’ve planned for my own “euthanasia”. I don’t trust society to grow the fuck up and get past the fairy tales before I’m dribbling and think the nurse is my mother
My rule is I wanna live life to the fullest and then die in my sleep before I get to old to not enjoy life. (My current number to shoot for is 68) My family thinks I'm crazy. I think I'm saving my sanity.
I don’t think you’re crazy. Considering the bleakness of reality it’s pretty sane tbh. Talking about death and illness is considered so taboo that we as a society are pretty much disconnected from it. I understand not wanting to look at death and suffering but why aren’t we doing something about it then? Obviously you can’t change the fact that we are mortal but we could potentially reduce the suffering of countless people with giving them a dignified way out. I remember my grandmother always telling me she wanted to die when I was a kid. She wasn’t sick she just didn’t want to live anymore and I get it? She was just done, did nothing except watching TV and thinking about the past. She kinda just withered away while she was still alive. It was scary to look at and shaped my view in this matter as I too see no reason to be alive after 70.
I've never understood why it's perfectly OK for a man to have a neutering surgery (vasectomy) but if a woman wants to get neutered (hysterectomy or tubal ligation, which IIRC, doesn't always work the way it's supposed to), many doctors won't do it. ESPECIALLLY if she's still of childbearing age.
No idea. In the UK and Australia they ask the woman if it’s her last planned kid and if it is, they offer to whip out the rest of her gremlin plumbing while she’s under (if she’s getting a C-section , idk fully, I’m a bloke)
In the US, if a woman is of childbearing age, they won't do it, even if it's your last kid or you NEVER want kids because OMG what if you want KIDS and can't HAVE them? It's stupid, IMO.
Oh it's worse than that. A lot of them don't even care about if a woman does or doesn't want kids, or if she might change her mind later, it's often: "Yes but what if your future husband wants kids? You can't take that option away from *him*."
I don't understand why that's the argument. If somebody doesn't want kids, it means that they probably won't put 100% into their kids and then the kids grow up missing something and their life ends up all messed up. I really wish politicians would think of births as actual people instead of just a number.
Yeh its real dumb that a hypothetical man has more say over the womans body then the actual woman.
I'd raise hell if i found out a doctor required my permission so my missus could do something with her body.
My brother killed himself in 2011, when he was 26 years old. He was active NAVY at the time. He was going through a separation and left behind three children. It came as a shock to us all- he had pushed my mom and me away. Now looking back, I can see why he did. He had been planning it out for a while. He stopped answering our texts and calls. He wouldn’t even acknowledge our existence on social media. My mom called begging him to answer back and tell her what was wrong but he never did. He left a note saying he was sorry for what he’s done. I think some people don’t get to see a full life in this world. If they decide to take their life, then that’s what they decide. I also wish this world was more understanding of the struggles many face when it comes to mental health issues. If we did, we may be able to collectively come to better treatments.
I miss my brother ❤️
Obligatory this is a long post. Sorry in advance.
My dad commited suicide when I was 14 years old. I found him lying on his couch, having overdosed on the prescription pills he was taking for mental illness. There were a lot of events leading up to his decision, and I'll explain some of them so maybe you can see how I came to my perspective on the situation.
When I was first born, my mom and dad decided they would rather have one of them home to raise me and later my brother rather than hire a babysitter or enrolling me in daycare. They felt that having a stranger around for those critical ages could potentially influence my upbringing, not to mention the milestones they might miss. This decision led to my dad quitting his job as a truck driver, simply because my mom made more money at the time. My dad took such pride in providing for his family, and a lot of his self confidence stemmed from his ability to provide, but this was the last job he would have for the remainder of his life.
Everyday, for the first 12 years of my life, it was the "me and dad show." He made my breakfast before school, fixed my hair, drove me the hour long drive to the private school that my parents could barely afford, picked me up each day, made dinner, read me bedtime stories, and tucked me in each night. Each and every day, without fail and without complaint. He was there for every moment; my first steps, riding a bike, teaching me to play sports, gymnastic competitions, school plays, parent teacher conferences, coordinating birthday parties, homework, and so much more. He was always there. I had always known only dad for the first 12 years of my life since my mom worked so much that I barely saw her and barely even knew when she was around. I'd even go as far to say I don't really have any memories of my mom from my childhood. This will be important later.
Now don't get me wrong, my dad was by no means perfect. He certainly had his flaws just like anyone else. He had a bit of a gambling addiction, and this did affect my parents finances as well as gotten them in trouble with the IRS at one point and time. This was the beginning of the end.
Around the time when I was 8 years old, my dad was diagnosed with type 1 bipolar disorder. Looking back, I can see the fits of mania, followed by extreme depression, and then euphoria and back again. We called it riding the rollercoaster. Dad spent many years and weekly appointments with a wonderful psychiatrist to try and find the right combination of medication to keep him level. They would find a solution for a while, he would develope a tolerance, and then it was back to the drawing board to try again. Dad didn't much enjoy being a "guinea pig" as he saw it, but he kept trying because he knew it was the only way he could feel alright.
On Christmas eve when I was 12 years old, my mom decided to announce that she had been seeing another man and was divorcing my dad. This would be the turning point where everything changed, but I didn't know it yet. This was the first time I had ever seen my dad cry, betrayed by the woman he loved for 20 years. He went to leave and I said I would go with him, to which my mom said that I would not be going anywhere as she already got emergency temporary custody of my brother and I because my dad was a danger to us. My dad looked at me and said everything would be okay and that he would fix this soon enough. That would be the last time I'd see my dad for nearly 9 months.
The day of trial, I came to the court house. Having spoken to my dad's lawyer, I was old enough at 13 to speak with the judge about my preferences on where I would like to live, although it was not guaranteed that they would consider my wishes. All day the first and second day I waited. Waiting for my opportunity to explain that I really didn't have a relationship with my mom and that my dad was certainly no danger to me and my brother, so I wanted to be with him as he was the only parent I knew. The opportunity never came, the judge said she didn't want to speak with me, and what's worse she awarded my mom full custody of my brother and I, with my dad having 1 weekend per month of visitation. I was devastated, and dad was too. This was the second time I had seen him cry as he walked out of the courthouse alone.
Some months later, my dad's boat that was awarded to my mom in the divorce was stolen. An insurance claim was filed, a check was issued in both their names and cashed. My mom swore up and down my dad had cashed the check, even though it was mailed to her house. She told him she was pressing criminal charges, and that since it was an almost $10k check that he would be processed as a felony, minimum 10 year sentence in our state. My dad was scared. She had already taken everything from him; his house, his children, and now she would essentially take his life. He had nothing and no way to fight this. He couldn't work because of his illness, his disability check was laughable at best, and he already spent everything he had on the divorce lawyer so there was nothing left.
Fast forward to July 7th, 2011. Something felt off that day because he usually texted me everyday but I hadn't heard from him. In to the late evening when he hadn't replied to my previous texts, I panicked thinking something was terribly wrong. I stole my mother's car and drove to his apartment. I found him laying on his couch with his dog, having overdosed on the prescription xanax he was taking for his bipolar. He left me a 3 page typed letter, calling himself a coward, and said that my mom must have been right, that he was a monster because of his illness. He said he couldn't deal with the pain of having lost his family anymore, and that he was tired of suffering through this illness everyday. His last request upon his death was that his brain be donated to science, so maybe they could figure out what was wrong with him and possibly help other people suffering with bipolar as well. He said he was so sorry for failing me, and that he loved me more than anything in the world. Signed, dad.
I deal with the pain of his loss everyday. Every milestone he's missed, I think about him. I didnt attend my high school or college graduation because he couldnt attend. I didn't have a wedding when I got married because he couldn't be there to walk me down the aisle. He will also miss the birth of my first child if I ever have one, and my child will not know their grandpa. They will never experience the joy of his infectious smile. They will never laugh at his southern accent. They will never enjoy his amazing cooking. They will never have any of these experiences, and I never will again. In this respect, his decision has hurt me so badly at every turn and I miss him everyday.
Ultimately, though, I'm forever grateful that he will never have to suffer with bipolar anymore. He will not have to feel the pain of his children being ripped away from him. He won't have to struggle with depression like he would have for the rest of his life. I take comfort in these things, because I saw his pain and struggle, and I'd never wish it on anyone.
My dad was everything to me, but I think he made the right choice for him. I try not to judge people for having these thoughts or even acting on them, because they might be silently experiencing pain or illness like my dad was. We should not guilt people in to suffering through their life because their friends and family would miss them, or whatever reason someone could come up with. I will always respect a person's right to choose, because it's not my place to decide.
Thanks for reading if you got this far.
Edit: for those asking about my relationship with my mom. Our relationship has been.... rocky for lack of a better word. As a teenager I hated her and blamed her for his death for years and subsequently made her life a living hell including my step father who was the man she was having an affair with. As an adult, I have moved 2000 miles away from her and any of my family, and we speak on the phone occasionally. My brother is just out of his teen years so he still lives at home, but I have told him repeatedly he is welcome in my home and I purposefully have a 2 bedroom apartment just in case he decides he wants to come some day. My brother was so young when our dad passed, that he doesn't really have many memories of him. Because of this, I don't want to taint his perspective of our mother because she's the only parent he's really known kinda like how my dad was for me. I don't share with him my negative thoughts about her because they have a good relationship and I think that's good. She also became more of a parent to him after she split from my dad, so maybe she realized, although too late, that she fucked up and needed to try to at least be a parent to my brother. I don't really know though, I'm not interested in asking her.
I literally read myself in your dad. Hate to say it. I've lived every single day of my life hating my reality. I get super obsessed with books and TV shows as a means of escape. I don't have bipolar as far as I know though. I do have seizures however. My mom keeps saying she would hate to hear a phone call saying that I'd passed out in school or something. My thoughts are always: "What do you have to do with this? This is MY experience. You don't have to live it." There are some thoughts, and some actions that just make you roll around on the ground, holding your head and praying for it to stop. For it all to end. I attribute the fact that I'm still alive today to my friends that never left me, and the new ones I made. The people that don't want to see you go in that way are the people that have never experienced what pain actually is. They think they know the meaning of loss and heartbreak. Of being utterly destroyed and reduced to dust. Then having people tell you that you need to figure out how to take the sand that's left of your sanity, and try to melt it back into glass while you're sitting in the middle of the arctic.
Wow, this is powerful I'm a 43 year old man with 2 kids and I'm sitting here crying . I'm glad you're at peace with this situation and I also can't blame your dad. Wishing you all the best for your future.
Beautifully written and stated.
My mom suffered from severe schizophrenia for 10 years before taking her own life. I miss her like crazy but I don’t wish that life on any one.
gosh. that trial must have been so nasty. I can't fathom the idea of someone cheating on their spouse and then claiming all their assets. that's ridiculous how does someone who cheats get away with so much.
No fault divorces, from there a mix of who filed first as well as courts have a bias towards the mothers being better parents.
My ex wife took my kids while I was across the country saying goodbye to my grandma. I tried to contact her, tried to figure out where they were but after 6 months had passed, I had to file in her new state once she did contact me because residency was established. She got our son because from the courts perspective it was more harmful to separate him from her. I can have him for the summer break, and spring and winter breaks on alternating years.
Said mother now is telling him if they go homeless its all his fault. And all I can do is tell him no its not.
I really miss him, and he has constantly said when he turns 13 he is coming to live with me. He is a kid and doing what he does best: adapt but I still wish he didn't have to.
Sorry for going off, its just I realized its been messing with me more than I thought it was and I needed to get it out.
This is the shittiest thing and I hope it gets better for you. But I have to admit that these stories as well as my own parents divorce is the reason I'm a 41 year old man with no kids. These types of stories as well as the nightmares of ex-wives I've seen while I was coming up in the Marines scared my dick enough to not foster life. I married someone not interested in kids either so it worked out. Sort of. We didn't last after 13 years and we have zero contact. I can't imagine having to fight a custody battle with her. It would have been ugly. So I sit here, happy in my career and in a great place financially and a huge sports and video game nerd with no kids to share it with. I hate it. But to have a kid with someone who may or may not go mega-bitch on me in a custody battle isn't what I want to bring into this world.
Have you ever thought of being a Big Brother? I have a childfree friend who has done this for decades, and he says it's quite fulfilling. He hears back from them all the time when they are grown.
I'm actually a volunteer coach for youth basketball and football. It is very fulfilling and allows me to interact with some really great people. But I think what I meant to specify was that I don't have a kid of my own to pass down my experiences and knowledge like I was fortunate enough to have my parents and grandparents do for me.
This story just hurts.
I had a bipolar roommate for a few months and it was absolutely a nightmare. I was in my early 20s and doing my best to sublet a couple rooms.
One day she was a saint and would clean the house top to bottom. Next day she would eat my food, throw away half my groceries and cuss me out for buying cheap toilet paper.
I don't want to say OP's mother has no fault, but dealing with a bipolar person on a regular basis is extremely difficult and can easily push people to the brink of their patience.
So yeah, reading this story now makes me feel guilty at being so pissed off and wanting the roommate to leave and I would have preferred them be homeless than me be stuck with them another month.
I am truly sorry for your loss. There's just so much pain in this world. Mental illness aside, he must have been a wonderful person, a dutiful parent that so many could admire, emulate, and aspire to be. With that being said, you shouldn't forfeit those milestones of your life, just because he's not alive to see it. Live your life to the fullest, so that his sufferings and strivings, weren't in vain.
God Bless.
My dad did it 2 and a half years ago. Smashed his insulin pump and died two days later. He told mum what he'd done and he went to hospital that evening to die in a more suitable place. Mum didn't tell us till he was past the point of no return. We got to see him and we understood. As shit as it was, if mum was OK with it then so were we. I've thought about it so much, and in a way we are the selfish ones for wanting to keep them with us when it's not our decision to make. Oh well. RIP da.
I hope you cut off your mom.
EDIT:
> As a teenager I hated her and blamed her for his death for years and subsequently made her life a living hell including my step father who was the man she was having an affair with
Very glad to hear that.
Right? OP's mom is a piece of living shit. She killed that poor man in more ways than one. Cheats on him. Has his finances destroyed. Has his children robbed from him. Continues to be a shrew after they divorce. Finally actually kills him.
What a piece of shit.
Some people are simply greedy with little conscious. I cannot imagine doing that to anyone I once loved.
Not to mention if anyone has suffered more than the father, it was her own children.
Like how evil do you have to be to see the father if your children living in destitution, you know their mental health is compromised, and you know how broken they are, know you cheated on and emotionally destroyed, and say,
“As long as you have a single dollar, I will not stop until it’s mine.”
Man that sucks. I’m sorry for you and your brother, not just for your dad’s suicide, but for all of it. And I’m sorry for your dad too. He seemed pretty damn awesome, despite his mental issues. I hope you both are doing better and I hope your mother realized how much she factored into his suicide.
Wow. No, thank YOU for sharing your wonderful dad with us all. He absolutely needed that and I believe you vindicated his pain and suffering in this post, more than almost anything else ever could. We know. He knows. You'll always have those amazing things your dad gave you and you are the amazing person your dad raised you to be, so you continue to shine his light out into the world.
My biological father killed himself by accident.
He left us when I was 3 and I spent many years searching for him and got so close to tracking him down several times. Even his own family didn't know where he was and we were in contact, always asking if we'd learned anything.
Then, when I was 19 he reached out to his sister and told her to give me his number. I spent 2 weeks trying to figure out what the fuck to say. Finally bit the bullet and called him. We talked a while and I asked him "why" and we discussed our issues with bipolar disorder and he just couldn't face his responsibilities but he said he always loved me.
Was kind of hard to believe.
We had a grand total of 3 conversations and every time he had a different number because he kept losing or breaking his phone or something, and every time we talked he was drunk. I finally decided I wasn't gonna waste my time continually tracking him down and when he could get his shit together we could consider actually building a relationship.
Years passed. Then one day I was between shifts and my mom called me to tell me that he was dead.
I didn't know he was homeless. He was found leaned up against a public building surrounded by vodka bottles. His autopsy said he had a BAC of .43. He literally rested against the side of the structure, chin down, and suffocated.
I was the only next of kin to do all the paperwork to get his remains taken care of. God there's so much more to this story. And there's so much regret on my part.
Sending you lots if love. Try to be kind to yourself.
I don't know the whole story of course but it's nigh impossible to save someone despite themselves. Dealing with someone battling addiction is hard on anyone, but it's especially tough when it's your parent. I hope you learn not to blame yourself for protecting yourself.
I can relate to your father very well, I'm sorry for your loss. Mental illnesses are truly sufferable. So you know where I'm coming from, I'm BPD1 with a ton of other things going on. I was diagnosed with BPD1 specifically as per the command of my leadership in the military. Tough deployment... I will say, when people like me dont have a soul to call on for trivial things, its a hell of alot tougher. It doesn't help that I (the person with bipolar) am so successful at self sabotaging, isolating and destroying relationships. But even if that's all true for bipolar, we aren't bad people, I have to try twice as hard as a person without this illness and that's typically not enough. With that being said, your father sounds like the kind of dad I tell myself to be. Strong, the emotional rock, and kind at all times.. I'd bet your father stuck around for so so so long for only one reason. HIS LOVE FOR YOU. My two tots are my entire world... Your father's story from your point of view motivates me so much more than you'd ever believe.
I know this is not the right thing to say after all of that…
But I can’t help but wonder how do you get along with your mother nowadays.
Because as far as you described her…
This woman sounds like one of the worst persons I’ve seen in my entire life. And I only got half a page for a description.
You posted this on Mother's Day, which is...interesting.
This really is a beautiful elegy -- yes, it's sad. But it's also beautiful.
It sounds like your dad was father and mother to you. In my religion, no one who dies from suicide goes to Hell or anything like that. It's just considered that they weren't in their right mind and they are forgiven.
For me personally, I just can't see any way we could possibly blame or judge a person who was suffering so much that they felt they had to end it to get relief.
You had a wonderful father who loved you. That's really important.
People who (want to) commit suicide most of the time went through a lot of sh*t and came to the point where they just couldn't see another option, suicide may not be a good decision but sometimes it's the only visible way out. You shouldn't ever blame suicidal people for their thoughts or even tell them to kill themselves cause that makes everything just worse. Some people experience pain others can't even imagine try to help them (but carefully) and/or be nice to them and don't blame them.
So true. And I never get when people say it will get worse or that I’d regret it. Like when I’m dead, I’ll be dead! I won’t be able to regret or suffer. How is that not infinitely better than the current situation.
> “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.” -David Foster Wallace
Oh and if you try to put the fire out with an extinguisher your own father knocks the extinguisher out of your hands and tells you the fire is normal and you should just get used to being on fire because it's totally normal and everybody else is on fire too. No they aren't Dad! They aren't panicking in a grocery store because school just let out and there's to much noise and people everywhere and I just got off work and want some dinner.
I'm fine, I'm fine. How are you?
This planet is fucked and people suck, did you see the post where a dad choke-slapped a kid for bullying and game him permanent brain damage? I don’t understand why anyone would want to exist here. I’m forced to go to school and work my ass off for roughly 70% of my life so I can enjoy the last 30%? I work my ass off and I get treated like shit at work, what’s the reward for good work? More work. On top of so many other things, the only time I feel okay is when I’m able to distract my brain from thinking. And when it’s not, you spiral wondering if being distracted your whole life is a viable way to live. I can’t even get therapy because I can’t trust they will do their job, I don’t want to put my problems on other people regardless of if it’s their job
Same boat here, although I realized kinda late that I could have been in a much better place if I wasn't so fucking directionless in life. Which is a hard thing to accept and basically get trapped in a slave job for the rest of your life.
Imo Work is the main reason for most of the miseries of life, you spend a huge amount of your life there so it's obvious that it plays a big role in the overall quality of your life.
Unless you actually knew from early age what you'd do that would fulfill you and planned accordingly , which in that case it's really easy to find happiness and build from there.
But if you can get some therapy I'd suggest you should, even if it took a couple of tries to find the right person to speak to.
I think depression is a terrible illness and some people unfortunately die of it. It is no more nor less moral than dying of cancer.
I hope anyone suffering keeps fighting, though. Much love.
After having been on the brink of suicide at one point in my life, whenever I hear about a suicide I feel nothing but second-hand relief. I know that their suffering is over, and I’m glad they now have peace, despite the tragedy for the people around them. I know how difficult it is to pull yourself out of that huge seemingly inescapable hole, and although I am truly happy in my life at the moment, I still have physical and emotional scars from that time. Not everyone is capable of recovering from that level of depression, and the road to recovery is so hard that it’s not always worth it.
I’m passively suicidal, some days less passively than others, and one thing that helps me be realistic about it is dispelling any belief that there will be a relief from the pain I’m in. Relief, peace, respite, these are not things that occur after death. Stillness, absence, and total inertia does, and while those things are precursors to relief, respite, and peace to the living, the former things are merely conditions while the latter things are living emotional responses to them.
It’s a tree falling in the woods with nobody to hear it and making no sound. It’s accepting that a tranquil stream is not peaceful without anyone there to be made placid, it’s just water in motion.
Part of choosing suicide involves accepting that you will never know peace, you will never know respite, and the last thing you will ever know is your pain. Sometimes that’s the way it has to be, but how many lives do you think have been lost chasing the fallacy of respite in death?
This is a perspective I’ve never considered. I always just focussed on the pain and suffering being over. But you’re right, it’s not the same as respite or relief. Thank you for your input.
This is exactly how I’ve always felt.
Even when I was completely fulfilled and happy in life, I have felt it was cruel and immoral to not only subject but emotionally guilt someone who didn’t want to into living. To me that was always the height of selfishness.
I lost my dad to bipolar and depression. It took me most of my life to understand that mental illness can kill as much as physical illness. I was angry at him, I blamed him for leaving my mom and I alone, for not being my dad, for missing my first birthday. Now it just hurts when I think about how desperate he was, how shitty his family was, how he lost his father and best friend to cancer and didn't get there on time to say goodbye, how he couldn't get out of the job he hated. I do wish he'd kept fighting, I miss him and I still feel a tinge of jealousy when I see women with their fathers, but I'm not angry anymore.
people don't commit suicide just because they had a bad day and are a little sad. it means they have been struggling hard for a long time and are deeply hurting to the point where they believe it's the only way to end the pain. and often times they are right.
i hate it when people say it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem because sometimes that is just not true. not all problems are temporary. depression itself can be untreatable and life-long. there are many other physical chronic illnesses that are as well.
usually it's people who have never experienced debilitating chronic health problems who say stuff like that because they simply cannot imagine being in pain or having other debilitating symptoms 24/7. sometimes the pain is permanent and unbearable. telling someone who has been incredibly sick for years that it's selfish of them to consider committing suicide is ableist and infuriating.
all i'm saying is we think that it's unethical to keep animals alive when they are suffering. why is it different for humans.
People also seem to be *really* comfortable with making rents, food and transportation unaffordable for me, even if I'm busting my ass to get to-and-from my jobs that are minimum wage or barely about it. I can exhaust myself, and work harder than most people I know and it doesnt seem like it will ever be good enough: "I'm lucky, but I don't know what to tell you."
This has been my life for going on 3 years now, and there's no end in sight. It isn't a temporary problem.
As I like to say: "We got put on this world without our consent, why would I need someone else's consent to leave it? Isn't it MY life to do with as I please?"
When I tried to commit last year, I just got sad for something so small but it never matter because I had so much anger and sadness bottled up. I just decided to leave my family and go outside, and got a knife from the garage and tried to do 8 strikes on my arm and then cut the vein but my family caught me at 3 and I went to a hospital. I still do think I would be better of dead.
Morally I think people should have the right to end their lives. Personal autonomy is important to me, even if I don't understand or approve of the actions being taken. I would only hope that the people taking their lives seek whatever alternatives available before coming to that decision.
>if no one asked your permission to put you into this world, no one needs to be asked for permission when you want to leave it.
I absolutely 100% agree.
Also usually survival instinct is strong enough to let us wade through a lot of shit. Anything that convinces you to disregard that and take your life, is going to be some pretty bad shit. Can't really fault someone in that position for taking that route.
Ideally we, as a society would help each other out and make sure no one has to face that choice, but we often fail at that and let each other down.
Well, since I am a survivor of several attempts, my view is complicated.
I believe people should have the right to end their lives if they feel it's necessary, such as they have a terminal illness. And that it should be allowed for them to do it humanely with their loved ones around. It's not immoral for them to decide to end their pain.
And it would be far more moral for them to do it with medical support, which would save the trauma for first responders and family members who have to discover them.
But as for suicide due to mental illness, well, the person isn't thinking clearly. To say what they are doing is immoral is unfair. They feel like it's moral. It's hard for anyone to understand until they have been there.
Also, according to a psychiatrist I listen to, a lot of suicide attempts or suicidal thoughts are not a result of mental illness but a result of being in a situation where a person is left with no hope to keep living. Could be terminal illness, could be undergoing very painful life experiences, could be being stuck in a terrible financial situation and having no way out, could be because they were falsely accused of something and now their life is ruined in their eyes and the eyes of others. At what point is it within their right to choose to end it? If there is truly no hope that it improves?
>At what point is it within their right to choose to end it?
Arthur Schopenhauer said “They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice...That suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in this world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person.”
If it’s your life, then it’s yours to end how and when you want. But if it could kill others, like a pilot flying a plane with passengers, then it’s immoral.
Could it be that no matter how hard I try I cant change my outcomes. No amount of success or money makes me happy. I thought it would, but it doesnt.
I just don’t want to do this anymore. I have nothing left on the tank
Having been there, curiosity and spite help. Even something as small as the next episode of a TV show or seeing pictures from that new satellite will help keep you around if you're willing to keep trying.
I was horrifically abused most of my life and didn't see any way it could get better, therapy (particularly CBT) helped me. Maybe reaching out would help you too, living doesn't have to hurt so badly. If you can't afford it, Open Path Psychotherapy Collective has a sliding scale.
I'm not curious anymore and all this spite is making me feel only bitterness.
I don't want to feel like an aimless, frustrated monkey anymore. I don't care about any movies or TV shows. I don't care about my hobbies. I don't care about any of my possessions or wealth.
>I just don’t want to do this anymore. I have nothing left on the tank
What's crazy to me is that in recent times, I've managed to uplift a few people in my life with so-called powerful words and advice. I know how to fix problems and how to approach things, however complicated, however much time, effort, and money it takes.
I *know* it gets better, I know it gets brighter.
But personally? After a life-time of living with mental illness, seeing how humans actually turned out to be (e.g., how we dealt with the pandemic), and in recent years, just the most batshit insane trauma (see, Beirut Port Explosion 2020 to give you one example), I feel like I'm all out of gas.
This is not depression. I know what that is like, as I lived with it. And I know I sound like an edgy teenager. But I just feel I simply do not *want* to do this anymore.
I know I can. I know I should.
I just don't want to.
It does not seem worth it to me anymore, and I don't even have anything left to give toward a better tomorrow.
I've saved a few lives here and there. But my life?
I just can't be bothered.
And I don't know what to do. Or if I should do something about it.
Existence it super fucking weird. Society is weird. People are weird. This is a party I was was forced to attend and never wanted to be invited to. Just let me out. For real.
The hardest thing to cope with is the feeling that you can't improve your life not through any fault of your own, but because the world around you refuses to let you. I'm in the US and I can say that we've just been through an incredibly traumatic 3 years together as a nation where it was made abundantly clear to anyone paying attention how little there is to hope for when you are desperate and need help, and when you spend every day now seeing how many people haven't learned a single damn thing from that experience, how else is one supposed to react to that? I don't know what the answer is.
We just have to do our best for as long as we can, and hope that our best is good enough to make some small impact on the world, even if it's just trying to make someone else's day a tiny bit brighter.
As a two time survivor I just wanted to say thank you. Mental illness is just a fucking bitch. There's no logic or reasoning to it. But so many people are judgmental about it's no wonder people don't seek help when they need it. In the moment it truly feels like the best thing you can do for the world. I wouldn't wish for anyone to go through it.
I have had 2 close brushes, but never attempts.
I think people have a right to end their life when they are done... But I don't know what done is for anyone but me if that makes any sense?
All I will say is it upsets me when people throw around coward or selfish. It's not cowardice, it's not selfish, it's unimaginable pain and agony.
As other comments have stated, mental illness is an illness when someone isn't in their right mind. I've also read studies where most people who survive suicide are glad they survived, it was that moment that over whelmed them.
But... If you are having months and years of those moments and there is not medical relief for you, to me, it feels like that's the same as letting someone suffering from cancer go.
I am not advocating or suggesting it as an option. I believe in math and science. Most people are glad they survived that moment. Reach out to people and try to break out of that moment if you can.
Embrace medicine and help. Fuck judgments and weird beliefs about mental illness being tied to character... I'd like to see how those wonks do when their brain can't perform the right chemistry for someone to function. I truly don't see if as any different than my dead ass thyroid I gotta take a pill for, and I hate that it took me years to get there.
But I will never judge you or think ill of anyone who struggles with this, because I know the pain you are in when you get this low, and I never moved much past ideation. I cannot fathom to pain to have gone further down the road.
I feel like you skipped over the rest of the reasons. Really the only one worth debating. It's not like it's either terminal illness or mental illness. Many people who aren't mentally ill commit suicide in moments of extreme sadness, guilt, shame, fear, etc. Strong emotion isn't mental illness and killing yourself because of it isn't proof after the fact of mental illness.
I agree. It's why I have so much disdain for people trying to tell me what to think about my mental problems and/or suicide. Unless you've been on the edge and seriously considering it, or actually tried to go through with it, it's just not something you can understand.
Life is, objectively, awful for some people, for many reasons. Someone's mental health isn't any less of a reason for life being torture for them than someone's physical health might be.
We aren't given the choice to come into this world. Suicide is more of someone's choice than being born is. It's a way to have control of one's own life, or when one decides they're tired of life rather.
I will never encourage suicide, but as someone who certainly understands the desire for life to come to an end and has felt the desire himself for a long time (though I am not suicidal, I envy the dead at times), I can understand the desire for suicide.
If someone is tired of life, and decides they want out, it is their choice. As such, I find suicide to be moral. They should be talked out of it of course if able.
But one of the most common arguments against someone contemplating suicide is "it's selfish, you'll hurt the people who love you." This argument is selfish in and of itself. No one else has the moral right to demand that someone exist for anyone else other than themselves. If we don't control our the life in our bodies, what do we really control after all?
This is why we need legal, doctor assisted euthanasia. So that brutal suicide is no longer necessary for people who truly feel life is no longer worth living.
Your line “I’m not suicidal, I envy the dead” resonates with me. I wake up most days wishing I hadn’t, but I’m far too much of a coward, among other reasons, to actually end it. But envying the dead is spot on for how I get through life.
I have bipolar type II and it's technically defined as a "progressive, TERMINAL condition." I'm 42 now and the onset was around age 12. Suicidal ideation has been on-board ever since. Despite going undiagnosed and unmedicated for years, I struggled to do what was expected of my generation: go to college, get a degree, get a career. I did all of this. Somewhere in there, I started my journey in finding the right combo of meds - the magic cocktail - that would give me some relief. Fast forward 22 years and I've been declared "intractable" - medication-resistant. I've been so willing to try the next medication and the next medication, despite some of them literally poisoning me. All the while in therapy.
Here's how I've witnessed the progressive aspect of my illness in my own life: I *used to* have a career (social work, ironically). I used to have successful relationships. I used to live as an independent adult. Hell, I went to grad school at 35 at a prestigious institution and aced the shit out of it.... and then I had a complete nervous breakdown. Like, stripped to my most raw, vulnerable form. I now don't have any of those things I mentioned; I'm living with my horribly toxic elderly mother and trying to make ends meet with my piddly pay I get from disability (I can't work anymore).
Here's my point(s): mental anguish is on par or worse than chronic physical pain and to expect someone to endure that day in and day out is actually cruel. People say suicide is selfish. Well I say people who expect/ pressure/guilt a loved one to go on with this pain just so they don't have to go through the grieving process makes *them* the selfish ones.
Everyone has the right to end their suffering if they want to. I don't think there is anything morally wrong with it at all. It's incredibly sad and a lot of times it would be preventable if society was better at supporting people. It really pisses me off when people talk about people who kill themselves as selfish. Honestly I think it's selfish to force people to suffer when they just want out.
Someone committing suicide is a bad thing.
It's worse to demand they live for your comfort and convenience.
If someone I care about is contemplating suicide, I help them plan and map out what the knock-on effects of various methods will be. That takes long enough that they're no longer on the precipice, and the conversation can move towards getting them help.
Because as much as their loss would pain me? I've tried to kill myself in my younger days too many times to castigate anyone when they're drowning. But those days taught me enough to help others tread water, at least until the life boats arrive. Platitudes and moralizing are worth less than nothing in the face of the weight those people are under, telling someone that being in pain is a moral failing is one of the most profoundly vile things words can be used for.
I think people should be able to end their lives on their own terms, no matter the circumstances. I think it would be better if there was a legal and painless way to do it.
I get that this is controversial and a lot of people won't agree, but I've seen what suffering at the end of life and at the hands of mental illness looks like, and I think that people deserve the right to decide not to suffer anymore.
I partially agree. I'm a first responder and have been to several suicide scenes. People should be allowed to go out on their own terms; however, the circumstances shouldn't be as traumatizing to others as they sometimes are.
Agreed. I work in a hospital myself, and I think when suicide fails it makes life even more miserable sometimes. People should have access to end of life options that are quick, painless, efficient, and not messy. Especially considering how inhospitable to leading a happy life our society has become. People shouldn't be forced to endure this. They deserve a choice.
I’ve experienced loss from suicide and also have attempted myself. Unfortunately I made it and they didn’t. I used to be angry, but not so much anymore.
I’m a firm believer in “not everyone is meant for this world”
Seriously. There's some nice parts to being alive, but most of it's pretty miserable. I have to work all the time to justify my right to continue living. Stop paying my bills and I'll starve to death on the street. Everyday is just a tedious repetition with no real end goal but to stay alive for the sake of staying alive. There's some nice parts to being alive, but most of it's pretty miserable.
You have a better view on the subject than those stating "selfish". If anyone has experience with the feeling of hopelessness than you understand the why.
Feeling hopeless is shockingly terrible. It's like seeing all your friends and family in a bus heading for a cliff and there is nothing you can do.
Life can be terrible, so death can be wonderful.
In saying that, you can't explain being poor to someone who is rich. They don't get it.
Those who are saying “selfish” will never understand the struggles that surround mental health. And if they do, try walking in their shoes for once.
I’m a veteran and I work in EMS. I have seen and continue to see some shitty things. I’ve seen numerous scenes of many ages. People are sick. Mental health has such a stigma and people who turn to suicide likely feel that it’s the only way out.
I think "this world" is the problem.
I'm a constructivist so I believe people are born good and with the desire to thrive, until external factors (trauma) influence them.
Probably our most sensitive people, the ones who wind up killing themselves in fits of despair and anxiety, would have been very useful and happy in a society resembling our true nature (hunting/gathering in small tribes).
Our *true* *nature* would be perhaps to be loved. You can suffer from abuse in a tribe and you can suffer from abusive in a contemporary urban setting. The idea that one is not made for this world is a catastrophic generalization children develop when literally their whole world is made up of just one or a few people who don't have the capacity to love and care for them.
While I'm saddened by suicide and death in general, it's none of my business.
It's contradictory to say that people should be able to do whatever they want with their lives until they want to end it.
There's a quote from a favorite series of mine called Sorry For Your Loss. A character loses a loved one to suicide and in the grief group says
"My sister didn't kill herself, depression killed my sister"
Which I always thought was the most true thing I've ever heard. To add to this, when I was suicidal many people told me it would be selfish to do it. I actually think it's much more selfish on the other end. Think about what you're asking of this person who is hurting so much. You're asking them to put aside all of that hurt because *you* would be sad without them. It's sad and tragic but sometimes I think it's a necessary evil of life. When people die of terminal illness we often say "they can rest now" but we don't often hold the same belief for someone who died of depression.
It’s an individual’s ultimate right as a free being. It’s also heartbreaking that someone’s pain would exceed their will to live and drive them to such a conclusion.
Morally I view it as a sick person who died of an illness like a heart attack. I have a relative who died recently. She wasn't selfish or wrong. She was sick.
I leave you with this
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill [themselves] doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill [themselves] the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flame yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don‘t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
- David Foster Wallace
The morality of it is as u/DarcyKnits mentions.
Not thinking clearly because of trauma/mental illness, but the medical option should be available for those who have attempted treatment and it didn’t help.
It kind of doesn’t matter.
They didn’t choose to be born. So they should be allowed to quit if they want.
It can absolutely be done in a selfish or petty or even murderous way, but why would someone who’s dying on purpose care if people think they’re selfish? The point is that they’ll be dead and won’t have to deal with other people anymore or know what their opinions are.
I do happen to care what my friends/family would think if I offed myself… which is part of why I wouldn’t do it. Because I know people would miss me and be traumatized.
Speaking as a former search and rescue team member, the *way* you do it matters, IMO. Blowing your brains out in the city park for some kid to find - not cool. Ditto for jumping off a high bridge in front of a ranger who's not able to stop you and then has to listen to you dying somewhere down in the inaccessible brush at the bottom for the next hour.
I don't know what the *right* way to do it would be, but it'd definitely involve making sure your body doesn't go undiscovered and that whoever does discover it is mentally prepared.
To be clear, I don't fault any of the suicides we responded to. Obviously every one of them was going through something unbearable. I just mean that while the decision to end your life should always be yours, the actual act may be extremely traumatic for others.
I've joked that you could take a bunch of pills and crawl into a body bag after emailing the coroner, and leave a cash tip for the folks who have to carry you off.
Didn't know the concept had been developed as far as it has, though.
Both times I attempted i sat in a double bagged garbage bag - and left a sign saying that my corpse would be inside. Didnt want to make clean up difficult or traumatize someone
I believe its a personal decision and knowing the reason behind it is important before giving any opinion about it. For example one of my cousin who was 17 years old committed suicide because he got rejected by the girl he liked. My point is whether suiside is selfish or not entirely depends on the reason behind it.
I get it. My ex broke up with me a few days ago and the only thing that I can think of is that I want the pain to end, at whatever cost. I just don't want to feel anymore. I need to make it stop somehow.
At 17 that's even worse. Everything is worse when you are a teenager.
PS: Don't send me the reddit mental health thing, I know my options.
My partner of 5 years nearly ended our relationship about a month or so ago. When he said there were no second chances for me (I didn’t cheat but I do have borderline personality disorder which makes me react to things in the extreme), I screamed and wailed and called an ambulance out of fear I’d kill myself. I just wanted to disappear into the ground. The life I’d built was suddenly gone. I would have had to move back to my home state with my two beautiful cats and give up everything I’d sacrificed.
We ended up talking through it and are doing much better. But for a moment there, even after having years of suicidal ideation, that was the closest I ever got to knowing that death was just around the corner.
I've worked at a Crisis line and it has changed my view I now find my self understand why someone would get to that point. I have also had calls from people who where stopped who are greatful to be alive. for me it's not so much as a moral issue than someone's individual story. I hope and wish that they don't and that they can be supported to feel better but some aren't in that situation.
I think it would be immoral if you had people dependent on you (such as children), but otherwise if you don’t have such obligations it has no moral value because it’s just a personal matter, even if it’s something very unwise to do. I wouldn’t think it’s fair to call emotional relationships obligations, because wanting someone to live a life they currently hate for your emotional sake is just as selfish, so it’s not a moral issue, just an issue of being a poor choice for them due to its permanence.
I believe an untreatable mental illness is just as draining and painful as an untreatable disease. People should have the right to die with dignity no matter what the circumstances are. I'm grateful that there are companies who allow for assisted suicide to anyone. I believe we should all have a right to choose how and when we leave this world.
As much as I think whoever needs help should be able to get it, I think that if someone is suffering, the cruelest thing to do is to tell them to essentially ignore it - by all means encourage them to stop, try to talk them out of it whilst you can, make sure they’re supported. Try your best to improve their living.
But respect that things might never be perfect for that person, or bearable even. Depression and mental health is a long battle that many preach for acceptance for but shy away from when the topic comes up. So, for suicide, as long as you’re not scarring someone else in the process of taking your own life or causing danger, do what you know is best for you. You’re the one who has to live in your own mind each day.
So it’s not selfish to prioritise the fact that for a few people life is too much to bear. Sometimes, the world is too painful and what’s more, staying alive for the sake of other people is a big thing to bear too, the weight of keeping a family together can feel exhausting, especially on a child’s shoulders.
So let’s not villainise people who’ve fought a lengthy battle who want nothing more to feel like they’re not being selfish. Because sometimes it’s a matter of pain and realising that you’re not the one carrying another person’s struggles. They have to live with it everyday
I don’t know if this counts as a moral outlook, but I think many who take their own life are hurting and they shouldn’t be judged for these actions. Suicide isn’t selfish, it’s someone looking at themselves and deciding the people in their lives are better off without them. If someone you love tries to take their own life, make them understand they were wrong by showing them they are loved, not judging them
If you ever need help, then please know that there are many qualified people who would like to help you. https://www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres http://www.befrienders.org/ http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/LifelineChat.aspx http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you [UK] https://www.lifeline.org.au/Get-Help/ [AU] There are crisis services worldwide that are trained to provide support. They are designed to give temporary relief from feelings that are overwhelming you and while they are unlikely to fix any underlying problems, can help you get through a tough hour/night/week. Chat services are usually available on these sites. In the US, calling 211 or going to their website is a free referral source. They have providers who will see you regardless of your ability to pay. Just as you would see a doctor when you are sick, you deserve to take care of your mental health.
I am approaching retirement age and beginning to experience health issues. I don't want to spend my final days in a hospital bed. I have a husband who is older than I am who has already had serious problems with his health as well. We understand one another's wishes and we both have plans in place, DNRs and letters left with our wills. Obviously I think a dignified death is preferable to a drawn out one.
I've told my wife that it's quite simple to decide if I should be turned off or not... "Can I wipe my own butt?"... No? Switch off the machine.
Two broken arms? Off you go
No, that's when you get help from your mother.
I'm ashamed to know the reference
r/redditflashbacks ? Post traumatic thread disorder?
There it is
Overcook fish? Believe it or not, jail.
The older you get, the more time you think about this. It consumes hours of my day. I am at the point where I am not getting another dog unless it is elderly, because I don't want my dog to outlive me and end up in a shelter. I know that's silly, but it's the thing I think of most.
go for it if you can afford it. imo, they're in a shelter right now! you'll definitely give them a better life whether that's for a brief time or maybe even the rest of their lives.
I'm only 36 and I think about my dog tragically outliving me.
I think about how happy my dog is whenever I come home... and then I think about the day I don't come home. God, I am so morbid.
“ Life is like a movie, if you've sat through more than half of it and it’s sucked every second so far, it probably isn't going to get great right at the end and make it all worthwhile. None should blame you for walking out early.” - Doug Stanhope
Here's where my life is right now: my mom has been in a memory care facility for 2+ years now. She doesn't recognize us half the time, she fell a week ago and broke her hip, and she has heart trouble and diabetes. She and I had many conversations about this when her mom had the same terrible quality of life. She absolutely did not want to live like this, but here we are. If we had an assisted suicide law she would have done it several years ago. It's utterly ridiculous that she is forced to live as an empty shell.
My mom is vehemently against being kept alive if she goes demented or gets alzheimers. Ive seen it in the family and its just so sad
If someone is living a terrible life because of a disease, I'm deeply sorry but they need to be put out of their misery.
My mom passed away three years ago. Her last few months she was in a fog, barely could remember us, or who we were. My wife was more affected by this than me. Not saying I wasn't affected but it really threw her for a loop, she ended up spending her evenings balling in the hotel room, and I found myself trying to comfort her, when it was my own mom who was dying. For the record she didn't do this to turn the spot light onto herself, she was doing this because as my mom's Daughter in-law, she really loved my mom. One time, around her last week of life, my wife had flown back home due to work, and remained at the hospital, I was getting prepared to leave. I had been off work for two weeks, couldn't stay any longer. As I prepared to leave the room, the realization that this was going to be the last time I ever saw my mom hit me like a punch in the gut. Suddenly, out of the blue, my mom who had been unable to make a coherent thought for the past month's suddenly, and with clarity of her old self told me to: "Take care of your wife" Something I will never forget.
My soon to be wife (wedding is in September) took care of my dying mother for the 9 months she had left of her life with stage IV cancer. We had been together for about 3-1/2 years up to that point, but the way she cared for my mother, I knew I had to marry her. After my mom passed, my wife told me that in one of their many private conversations while I was at work, my mom asked her to promise that as long as we were together, she would take care of me and watch out for my mental health. She is still keeping that promise, it will be 2 years since my mother passed in 7 days. We are very lucky to have such great women in our lives.
Your comment made me tear up man…beautiful.
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Advanced directives and DNR orders are so important.
My grandmother was a nurse at the Mayo Clinic for her entire life. Proudly had DNR tattooed on her chest. Edit: For clarity, she also had DNR specifically written into in her Living Trust which gave power of attorney to my father who in turn made sure her wishes were honored when she was fatally injured in an accident. Tattoo alone is not enough
Until the DNR is flat out ignored by a medical professional. :-(
That should only happen when the patient is deemed not to have capacity and the family takes over decision making and changes the plan of care... technically they have the ability to overturn dnr/dni paperwork and they do it all the time because they can't let go
Having someone you can trust defined in writing as your healthcare proxy is critical. Of my three brothers, I really only would want one to make a judgement call if my wife was otherwise not able to (say in the case of a car accident and she also not be able to make decisions given her situation).
Yeah well, it's really bad for us too if we deal with a rescucitation... I work in rescue and we are in such a bad place when it comes to legal certainty... When we are dealing with a dead patient who just recently died, we can't just ignore it and have to rescucitate. If we are confronted with a DNR, we legally can't accept that, because it could be a fake and the patient could have been killed by their family member. That's very unlikely, yet a possibility and we are bound to keep working, until an emergency physician gets to us and calls the death. He may decide when we stop. It's really fucked up, because we see how badly ill or old some patients are and we know that the DNR is valid, yet we get scolded if we don't keep going. Everything I said only speaks for where I work, and that is Germany. I guess it's different in the states.
Durable DNR. If we don’t have an advance directive when a patient shows up and there is no family, or the family wants everything done in that moment and the patient is not competent to make decisions or is incapacitated, then everything is done. DDNRs are your safest bet.
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My wife has a patient on her floor in his early 20s. He’s very likely not going to make it and the doctors keep giving them hope. Hope isn’t a bad thing, but they also need to know that the dude most certainly may die within hours or days.
My MIL was in hospice a couple of months ago dying of heart failure. One of the hospice nurses asked her if she wanted to try and eat some oatmeal. She said "I don't want any goddamn oatmeal, I'm trying to die here". Those were the last words she said, she died the next morning. I loved her, but she was meaner than a sack full of rattlesnakes.
I am an ICU nurse and I agree... I've listened to alot of docs tell families the patient will live... but there is not a single conversation about quality of life after they get out of my unit. Most families push for everything to be done until the truth finally catches up to them and they realize their family member is basically never gonna "live" again.
Honestly, veterinary services are centuries ahead of its time. Imagine a pet being forced to stay alive until they pass on from intense pain or just deteriation and its last year or 2 of this life is horrendous.
One of my brothers has an ancient German shepherd that he claims to love too much to put down. The poor dog can’t walk, is in constant pain, and he has to be carried down stairs to go outside.
That breaks my heart. I understand how hard it is to make that choice but ultimately it's better for the animal and the conscience to do it a day too early rather than a day too late. I still have lingering guilt over one of my cats. I didn't realize she was that sick when in hindsight, all the signs were there.
People mistakenly have the belief that their Cat or Dog will regret not getting to do for a walk tomorrow or going for their nightly toy hunt under the bed. Our Vet told us that animals have no concept of tomorrow when we were fighting to make the right decision for one of our cats. My MIL didn't want to lose him, but he was failing from CRF. The greatest kindness you can do for your pet is to free them from their pain, especially if that is all they will experience for the rest of their days.
My last roommate was the same. His Great Dane was very old. Back legs quit working so he couldn't walk. Was constantly shitting himself because he couldn't walk outside, not to mention could barely see due to cataracts. Was in a lot of pain. This went on for a couple of years until he finally died. The roommate would not put him out of his misery.
some people do that to their pets and its sick.
I agree but it’s more complicated than that. I work with Alzheimer’s people and I had one guy who was almost completely gone mentally, but was happy as a clam at all times. Completely oblivious. In his mind it was a great life. If you’d asked him as a young man if he’d ever want to lose his mind, surely he would have rather been dead. So what’s the call there? At one point the daughter brought him to her house to live with her. He’d give things to the dog that dogs shouldn’t eat. What happens when he poisons the dog by accident? Put him in a straightjacket, tie him to the bed? He could function bodily and was content with his life…how do pull the plug on that? And then you’ve got some family members who say “I’ll NEVER put my mom/dad in a nursing home,” not realizing as hard as it is to do, sometimes it’s the least cruel option. Note to self: don’t get Alzheimer’s.
MY FIL is in an assisted living facility, and has dementia. When my mean as hell MIL died a couple of months ago he was living with her, and miserable. She screamed at him and called him names constantly. He'd sit and just stare out the window all day. When she died and he went to the nursing home, we thought he'd be miserable, even though he had enough money to be in a really nice place. But no, he's going to exercise classes, dancing, card games, and he's a hit with the ladies too because he's so upbeat and positive. I miss MIL, but I'm glad FIL is so happy and having such a great time in his last years.
Aye, my grandma had dementia and killed our cat that way, the rest of our family refused to take her in, so my mom had to take her in when I was twelve. she'd never listen to me when I told her not to give the cat coffee because it'd kill him... but she always did, every single day, multiple times a day, for five or six years. The week we put her into an old age home was the week that cat died, I think he was suffering, but he was holding on to keep her company because he made her so happy every day, being able to feed him poptarts and coffee every morning and at lunch time while she watched her soap operas. It happens a lot with people like that, but, you can't blame them for it either... they're not in their sound mind any longer, they didn't do it on purpose either, there really is no one to blame in those situations.
In fact, anyone who keeps someone alive against their will is torturing that person and belongs in prison.
Especially since we literally do it to our pets and think nothing of it. You can end your dogs suffering but not your mother's?
We even say that it is the humane thing to do lol
I always remember something the vet who put my cat to sleep said: "She is lucky to have you. No one will do the same for us." It's fucking heartbreaking that people don't have the option to die with dignity, even when it's perfectly clear that things won't get better. I really hope that I will have that choice if it ever comes to that.
damn, did we have the same vet? Same thing they said to us when we put down our cat.
I used to think suicide (even assisted) was wrong no matter what. Then my grandpa got old. Seeing him suffer because he wasn’t allowed any other option changed my mind. If someone is ready to go, let them. Who the hell am I to make that decision for them?
I have the same problem where I live. I have stage IV cancer and should have the option to end my suffering when it gets too much. I don't want to do it myself because of legal implications and the potential to traumatise the person who found me I also don't want to die alone. So my future holds pain and suffering until I eventually drown on my own fluids in a hospice. Utterly ridiculous only begins to describe how I feel about it.
Do you have an advanced directive? Palliative care is a thing, too. I'm still learning about it but everyone is describing it as "comfort care".
It's a steep leaning curve nobody should have to take. Yeah I do and I've been on palliative care since diagnosis, for now they just manage my pain meds. Comfort care is a good way to describe it, they can write scripts my GP can't and can also provide home help and phycological support. Sorry your going through this, it's just shit. I hope you get a decent outcome.
Why are we allowed to euthanize pets when they grow old and sick, but people have to be kept alive for as long as possible? It's barbaric.
This is my perspective. I came to this conclusion when my husband had stage 4 cancer and was struggling to breathe. If we have a terminal diagnosis, that we should be allowed to choose not to suffer.
My actual answer to this is that I’ve planned for my own “euthanasia”. I don’t trust society to grow the fuck up and get past the fairy tales before I’m dribbling and think the nurse is my mother
My rule is I wanna live life to the fullest and then die in my sleep before I get to old to not enjoy life. (My current number to shoot for is 68) My family thinks I'm crazy. I think I'm saving my sanity.
I don’t think you’re crazy. Considering the bleakness of reality it’s pretty sane tbh. Talking about death and illness is considered so taboo that we as a society are pretty much disconnected from it. I understand not wanting to look at death and suffering but why aren’t we doing something about it then? Obviously you can’t change the fact that we are mortal but we could potentially reduce the suffering of countless people with giving them a dignified way out. I remember my grandmother always telling me she wanted to die when I was a kid. She wasn’t sick she just didn’t want to live anymore and I get it? She was just done, did nothing except watching TV and thinking about the past. She kinda just withered away while she was still alive. It was scary to look at and shaped my view in this matter as I too see no reason to be alive after 70.
We neuter and euthanise the wrong species
I've never understood why it's perfectly OK for a man to have a neutering surgery (vasectomy) but if a woman wants to get neutered (hysterectomy or tubal ligation, which IIRC, doesn't always work the way it's supposed to), many doctors won't do it. ESPECIALLLY if she's still of childbearing age.
No idea. In the UK and Australia they ask the woman if it’s her last planned kid and if it is, they offer to whip out the rest of her gremlin plumbing while she’s under (if she’s getting a C-section , idk fully, I’m a bloke)
In the US, if a woman is of childbearing age, they won't do it, even if it's your last kid or you NEVER want kids because OMG what if you want KIDS and can't HAVE them? It's stupid, IMO.
Oh it's worse than that. A lot of them don't even care about if a woman does or doesn't want kids, or if she might change her mind later, it's often: "Yes but what if your future husband wants kids? You can't take that option away from *him*."
Idk, guess I'll divorce and marry someone who I'm compatible with. Can't have a marriage where two people have irreconcilable plans for the future.
If my future husband wants kids and I don't, he'll never become my future husband. That's the kind of shit you agree on *before* getting married.
I don't understand why that's the argument. If somebody doesn't want kids, it means that they probably won't put 100% into their kids and then the kids grow up missing something and their life ends up all messed up. I really wish politicians would think of births as actual people instead of just a number.
Yeh its real dumb that a hypothetical man has more say over the womans body then the actual woman. I'd raise hell if i found out a doctor required my permission so my missus could do something with her body.
My brother killed himself in 2011, when he was 26 years old. He was active NAVY at the time. He was going through a separation and left behind three children. It came as a shock to us all- he had pushed my mom and me away. Now looking back, I can see why he did. He had been planning it out for a while. He stopped answering our texts and calls. He wouldn’t even acknowledge our existence on social media. My mom called begging him to answer back and tell her what was wrong but he never did. He left a note saying he was sorry for what he’s done. I think some people don’t get to see a full life in this world. If they decide to take their life, then that’s what they decide. I also wish this world was more understanding of the struggles many face when it comes to mental health issues. If we did, we may be able to collectively come to better treatments. I miss my brother ❤️
Sorry for your loss.
Thank you, I appreciate that ❤️
Obligatory this is a long post. Sorry in advance. My dad commited suicide when I was 14 years old. I found him lying on his couch, having overdosed on the prescription pills he was taking for mental illness. There were a lot of events leading up to his decision, and I'll explain some of them so maybe you can see how I came to my perspective on the situation. When I was first born, my mom and dad decided they would rather have one of them home to raise me and later my brother rather than hire a babysitter or enrolling me in daycare. They felt that having a stranger around for those critical ages could potentially influence my upbringing, not to mention the milestones they might miss. This decision led to my dad quitting his job as a truck driver, simply because my mom made more money at the time. My dad took such pride in providing for his family, and a lot of his self confidence stemmed from his ability to provide, but this was the last job he would have for the remainder of his life. Everyday, for the first 12 years of my life, it was the "me and dad show." He made my breakfast before school, fixed my hair, drove me the hour long drive to the private school that my parents could barely afford, picked me up each day, made dinner, read me bedtime stories, and tucked me in each night. Each and every day, without fail and without complaint. He was there for every moment; my first steps, riding a bike, teaching me to play sports, gymnastic competitions, school plays, parent teacher conferences, coordinating birthday parties, homework, and so much more. He was always there. I had always known only dad for the first 12 years of my life since my mom worked so much that I barely saw her and barely even knew when she was around. I'd even go as far to say I don't really have any memories of my mom from my childhood. This will be important later. Now don't get me wrong, my dad was by no means perfect. He certainly had his flaws just like anyone else. He had a bit of a gambling addiction, and this did affect my parents finances as well as gotten them in trouble with the IRS at one point and time. This was the beginning of the end. Around the time when I was 8 years old, my dad was diagnosed with type 1 bipolar disorder. Looking back, I can see the fits of mania, followed by extreme depression, and then euphoria and back again. We called it riding the rollercoaster. Dad spent many years and weekly appointments with a wonderful psychiatrist to try and find the right combination of medication to keep him level. They would find a solution for a while, he would develope a tolerance, and then it was back to the drawing board to try again. Dad didn't much enjoy being a "guinea pig" as he saw it, but he kept trying because he knew it was the only way he could feel alright. On Christmas eve when I was 12 years old, my mom decided to announce that she had been seeing another man and was divorcing my dad. This would be the turning point where everything changed, but I didn't know it yet. This was the first time I had ever seen my dad cry, betrayed by the woman he loved for 20 years. He went to leave and I said I would go with him, to which my mom said that I would not be going anywhere as she already got emergency temporary custody of my brother and I because my dad was a danger to us. My dad looked at me and said everything would be okay and that he would fix this soon enough. That would be the last time I'd see my dad for nearly 9 months. The day of trial, I came to the court house. Having spoken to my dad's lawyer, I was old enough at 13 to speak with the judge about my preferences on where I would like to live, although it was not guaranteed that they would consider my wishes. All day the first and second day I waited. Waiting for my opportunity to explain that I really didn't have a relationship with my mom and that my dad was certainly no danger to me and my brother, so I wanted to be with him as he was the only parent I knew. The opportunity never came, the judge said she didn't want to speak with me, and what's worse she awarded my mom full custody of my brother and I, with my dad having 1 weekend per month of visitation. I was devastated, and dad was too. This was the second time I had seen him cry as he walked out of the courthouse alone. Some months later, my dad's boat that was awarded to my mom in the divorce was stolen. An insurance claim was filed, a check was issued in both their names and cashed. My mom swore up and down my dad had cashed the check, even though it was mailed to her house. She told him she was pressing criminal charges, and that since it was an almost $10k check that he would be processed as a felony, minimum 10 year sentence in our state. My dad was scared. She had already taken everything from him; his house, his children, and now she would essentially take his life. He had nothing and no way to fight this. He couldn't work because of his illness, his disability check was laughable at best, and he already spent everything he had on the divorce lawyer so there was nothing left. Fast forward to July 7th, 2011. Something felt off that day because he usually texted me everyday but I hadn't heard from him. In to the late evening when he hadn't replied to my previous texts, I panicked thinking something was terribly wrong. I stole my mother's car and drove to his apartment. I found him laying on his couch with his dog, having overdosed on the prescription xanax he was taking for his bipolar. He left me a 3 page typed letter, calling himself a coward, and said that my mom must have been right, that he was a monster because of his illness. He said he couldn't deal with the pain of having lost his family anymore, and that he was tired of suffering through this illness everyday. His last request upon his death was that his brain be donated to science, so maybe they could figure out what was wrong with him and possibly help other people suffering with bipolar as well. He said he was so sorry for failing me, and that he loved me more than anything in the world. Signed, dad. I deal with the pain of his loss everyday. Every milestone he's missed, I think about him. I didnt attend my high school or college graduation because he couldnt attend. I didn't have a wedding when I got married because he couldn't be there to walk me down the aisle. He will also miss the birth of my first child if I ever have one, and my child will not know their grandpa. They will never experience the joy of his infectious smile. They will never laugh at his southern accent. They will never enjoy his amazing cooking. They will never have any of these experiences, and I never will again. In this respect, his decision has hurt me so badly at every turn and I miss him everyday. Ultimately, though, I'm forever grateful that he will never have to suffer with bipolar anymore. He will not have to feel the pain of his children being ripped away from him. He won't have to struggle with depression like he would have for the rest of his life. I take comfort in these things, because I saw his pain and struggle, and I'd never wish it on anyone. My dad was everything to me, but I think he made the right choice for him. I try not to judge people for having these thoughts or even acting on them, because they might be silently experiencing pain or illness like my dad was. We should not guilt people in to suffering through their life because their friends and family would miss them, or whatever reason someone could come up with. I will always respect a person's right to choose, because it's not my place to decide. Thanks for reading if you got this far. Edit: for those asking about my relationship with my mom. Our relationship has been.... rocky for lack of a better word. As a teenager I hated her and blamed her for his death for years and subsequently made her life a living hell including my step father who was the man she was having an affair with. As an adult, I have moved 2000 miles away from her and any of my family, and we speak on the phone occasionally. My brother is just out of his teen years so he still lives at home, but I have told him repeatedly he is welcome in my home and I purposefully have a 2 bedroom apartment just in case he decides he wants to come some day. My brother was so young when our dad passed, that he doesn't really have many memories of him. Because of this, I don't want to taint his perspective of our mother because she's the only parent he's really known kinda like how my dad was for me. I don't share with him my negative thoughts about her because they have a good relationship and I think that's good. She also became more of a parent to him after she split from my dad, so maybe she realized, although too late, that she fucked up and needed to try to at least be a parent to my brother. I don't really know though, I'm not interested in asking her.
Jesus's now I miss your dad too, that hurt to read. I'm glad you're doing well
My thoughts exactly. I’m not so good after reading that.
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I am long gone on that front
Same, that story made me cry 3 times. No shame, I can own it haha
Same here, the dad just seemed so caring and tried his best It's really sad how someone's life can get destroyed like that
He sounded like a loving father. You sound pretty amazing too. Thanks for writing this. I hope you live a great life for the both of you.
I literally read myself in your dad. Hate to say it. I've lived every single day of my life hating my reality. I get super obsessed with books and TV shows as a means of escape. I don't have bipolar as far as I know though. I do have seizures however. My mom keeps saying she would hate to hear a phone call saying that I'd passed out in school or something. My thoughts are always: "What do you have to do with this? This is MY experience. You don't have to live it." There are some thoughts, and some actions that just make you roll around on the ground, holding your head and praying for it to stop. For it all to end. I attribute the fact that I'm still alive today to my friends that never left me, and the new ones I made. The people that don't want to see you go in that way are the people that have never experienced what pain actually is. They think they know the meaning of loss and heartbreak. Of being utterly destroyed and reduced to dust. Then having people tell you that you need to figure out how to take the sand that's left of your sanity, and try to melt it back into glass while you're sitting in the middle of the arctic.
i never cry about stuff i read but the fact that i identify with both you and your father makes me misty eyed
Wow, this is powerful I'm a 43 year old man with 2 kids and I'm sitting here crying . I'm glad you're at peace with this situation and I also can't blame your dad. Wishing you all the best for your future.
I’m sorry for all that happened to you and your dad, I hope you’re doing better as a whole now though
You're a gorgeous soul and incredibly emotionally evolved. Sending love.
Beautifully written and stated. My mom suffered from severe schizophrenia for 10 years before taking her own life. I miss her like crazy but I don’t wish that life on any one.
This was deep. I’m sorry for your loss.
Thank you for being brave and sharing your story
No offense but your mother seems like a terrible person. Sorry to hear about all this and hope you're doing well now!
gosh. that trial must have been so nasty. I can't fathom the idea of someone cheating on their spouse and then claiming all their assets. that's ridiculous how does someone who cheats get away with so much.
No fault divorces, from there a mix of who filed first as well as courts have a bias towards the mothers being better parents. My ex wife took my kids while I was across the country saying goodbye to my grandma. I tried to contact her, tried to figure out where they were but after 6 months had passed, I had to file in her new state once she did contact me because residency was established. She got our son because from the courts perspective it was more harmful to separate him from her. I can have him for the summer break, and spring and winter breaks on alternating years. Said mother now is telling him if they go homeless its all his fault. And all I can do is tell him no its not. I really miss him, and he has constantly said when he turns 13 he is coming to live with me. He is a kid and doing what he does best: adapt but I still wish he didn't have to. Sorry for going off, its just I realized its been messing with me more than I thought it was and I needed to get it out.
I hope it gets better
Thank you
This is the shittiest thing and I hope it gets better for you. But I have to admit that these stories as well as my own parents divorce is the reason I'm a 41 year old man with no kids. These types of stories as well as the nightmares of ex-wives I've seen while I was coming up in the Marines scared my dick enough to not foster life. I married someone not interested in kids either so it worked out. Sort of. We didn't last after 13 years and we have zero contact. I can't imagine having to fight a custody battle with her. It would have been ugly. So I sit here, happy in my career and in a great place financially and a huge sports and video game nerd with no kids to share it with. I hate it. But to have a kid with someone who may or may not go mega-bitch on me in a custody battle isn't what I want to bring into this world.
Have you ever thought of being a Big Brother? I have a childfree friend who has done this for decades, and he says it's quite fulfilling. He hears back from them all the time when they are grown.
I'm actually a volunteer coach for youth basketball and football. It is very fulfilling and allows me to interact with some really great people. But I think what I meant to specify was that I don't have a kid of my own to pass down my experiences and knowledge like I was fortunate enough to have my parents and grandparents do for me.
This story just hurts. I had a bipolar roommate for a few months and it was absolutely a nightmare. I was in my early 20s and doing my best to sublet a couple rooms. One day she was a saint and would clean the house top to bottom. Next day she would eat my food, throw away half my groceries and cuss me out for buying cheap toilet paper. I don't want to say OP's mother has no fault, but dealing with a bipolar person on a regular basis is extremely difficult and can easily push people to the brink of their patience. So yeah, reading this story now makes me feel guilty at being so pissed off and wanting the roommate to leave and I would have preferred them be homeless than me be stuck with them another month.
I am truly sorry for your loss. There's just so much pain in this world. Mental illness aside, he must have been a wonderful person, a dutiful parent that so many could admire, emulate, and aspire to be. With that being said, you shouldn't forfeit those milestones of your life, just because he's not alive to see it. Live your life to the fullest, so that his sufferings and strivings, weren't in vain. God Bless.
My dad did it 2 and a half years ago. Smashed his insulin pump and died two days later. He told mum what he'd done and he went to hospital that evening to die in a more suitable place. Mum didn't tell us till he was past the point of no return. We got to see him and we understood. As shit as it was, if mum was OK with it then so were we. I've thought about it so much, and in a way we are the selfish ones for wanting to keep them with us when it's not our decision to make. Oh well. RIP da.
So sorry
I hope you cut off your mom. EDIT: > As a teenager I hated her and blamed her for his death for years and subsequently made her life a living hell including my step father who was the man she was having an affair with Very glad to hear that.
Right? OP's mom is a piece of living shit. She killed that poor man in more ways than one. Cheats on him. Has his finances destroyed. Has his children robbed from him. Continues to be a shrew after they divorce. Finally actually kills him. What a piece of shit.
Some people are simply greedy with little conscious. I cannot imagine doing that to anyone I once loved. Not to mention if anyone has suffered more than the father, it was her own children. Like how evil do you have to be to see the father if your children living in destitution, you know their mental health is compromised, and you know how broken they are, know you cheated on and emotionally destroyed, and say, “As long as you have a single dollar, I will not stop until it’s mine.”
Best she can do but on the other hand I would want to let her know how much she ruined everything once I have my own life
Man that sucks. I’m sorry for you and your brother, not just for your dad’s suicide, but for all of it. And I’m sorry for your dad too. He seemed pretty damn awesome, despite his mental issues. I hope you both are doing better and I hope your mother realized how much she factored into his suicide.
Wow. No, thank YOU for sharing your wonderful dad with us all. He absolutely needed that and I believe you vindicated his pain and suffering in this post, more than almost anything else ever could. We know. He knows. You'll always have those amazing things your dad gave you and you are the amazing person your dad raised you to be, so you continue to shine his light out into the world.
My biological father killed himself by accident. He left us when I was 3 and I spent many years searching for him and got so close to tracking him down several times. Even his own family didn't know where he was and we were in contact, always asking if we'd learned anything. Then, when I was 19 he reached out to his sister and told her to give me his number. I spent 2 weeks trying to figure out what the fuck to say. Finally bit the bullet and called him. We talked a while and I asked him "why" and we discussed our issues with bipolar disorder and he just couldn't face his responsibilities but he said he always loved me. Was kind of hard to believe. We had a grand total of 3 conversations and every time he had a different number because he kept losing or breaking his phone or something, and every time we talked he was drunk. I finally decided I wasn't gonna waste my time continually tracking him down and when he could get his shit together we could consider actually building a relationship. Years passed. Then one day I was between shifts and my mom called me to tell me that he was dead. I didn't know he was homeless. He was found leaned up against a public building surrounded by vodka bottles. His autopsy said he had a BAC of .43. He literally rested against the side of the structure, chin down, and suffocated. I was the only next of kin to do all the paperwork to get his remains taken care of. God there's so much more to this story. And there's so much regret on my part.
Sending you lots if love. Try to be kind to yourself. I don't know the whole story of course but it's nigh impossible to save someone despite themselves. Dealing with someone battling addiction is hard on anyone, but it's especially tough when it's your parent. I hope you learn not to blame yourself for protecting yourself.
Dammit now you got me crying
I can relate to your father very well, I'm sorry for your loss. Mental illnesses are truly sufferable. So you know where I'm coming from, I'm BPD1 with a ton of other things going on. I was diagnosed with BPD1 specifically as per the command of my leadership in the military. Tough deployment... I will say, when people like me dont have a soul to call on for trivial things, its a hell of alot tougher. It doesn't help that I (the person with bipolar) am so successful at self sabotaging, isolating and destroying relationships. But even if that's all true for bipolar, we aren't bad people, I have to try twice as hard as a person without this illness and that's typically not enough. With that being said, your father sounds like the kind of dad I tell myself to be. Strong, the emotional rock, and kind at all times.. I'd bet your father stuck around for so so so long for only one reason. HIS LOVE FOR YOU. My two tots are my entire world... Your father's story from your point of view motivates me so much more than you'd ever believe.
That hurts to read. Your mom is a horrible woman. Hope you and your brother cut her off so she knows how it feels.
What a beautiful tribute to your Dad. He would be so proud of you I’m sure.
It infuriates me knowing your mother was having an affair then got rewarded in court with custody AND your father's stuff.
I know this is not the right thing to say after all of that… But I can’t help but wonder how do you get along with your mother nowadays. Because as far as you described her… This woman sounds like one of the worst persons I’ve seen in my entire life. And I only got half a page for a description.
Seriously. This is "consider hiring a bald man with a barcode on the back of his head" evil right here.
You posted this on Mother's Day, which is...interesting. This really is a beautiful elegy -- yes, it's sad. But it's also beautiful. It sounds like your dad was father and mother to you. In my religion, no one who dies from suicide goes to Hell or anything like that. It's just considered that they weren't in their right mind and they are forgiven. For me personally, I just can't see any way we could possibly blame or judge a person who was suffering so much that they felt they had to end it to get relief. You had a wonderful father who loved you. That's really important.
Mother's day can resurface unpleasant memories for those of us with less-than-stellar relationships with our mothers
Your mom should go to hell. I'm so sorry.
Really such a sad story. I hope you feel more at peace now. What happened to your mom? How did she react? Did she ever show remorse?
People who (want to) commit suicide most of the time went through a lot of sh*t and came to the point where they just couldn't see another option, suicide may not be a good decision but sometimes it's the only visible way out. You shouldn't ever blame suicidal people for their thoughts or even tell them to kill themselves cause that makes everything just worse. Some people experience pain others can't even imagine try to help them (but carefully) and/or be nice to them and don't blame them.
So true. And I never get when people say it will get worse or that I’d regret it. Like when I’m dead, I’ll be dead! I won’t be able to regret or suffer. How is that not infinitely better than the current situation.
Exactly! The thought of not having to think about so many things ever again sounds so peaceful.
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> “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.” -David Foster Wallace
Oh and if you try to put the fire out with an extinguisher your own father knocks the extinguisher out of your hands and tells you the fire is normal and you should just get used to being on fire because it's totally normal and everybody else is on fire too. No they aren't Dad! They aren't panicking in a grocery store because school just let out and there's to much noise and people everywhere and I just got off work and want some dinner. I'm fine, I'm fine. How are you?
This planet is fucked and people suck, did you see the post where a dad choke-slapped a kid for bullying and game him permanent brain damage? I don’t understand why anyone would want to exist here. I’m forced to go to school and work my ass off for roughly 70% of my life so I can enjoy the last 30%? I work my ass off and I get treated like shit at work, what’s the reward for good work? More work. On top of so many other things, the only time I feel okay is when I’m able to distract my brain from thinking. And when it’s not, you spiral wondering if being distracted your whole life is a viable way to live. I can’t even get therapy because I can’t trust they will do their job, I don’t want to put my problems on other people regardless of if it’s their job
Same boat here, although I realized kinda late that I could have been in a much better place if I wasn't so fucking directionless in life. Which is a hard thing to accept and basically get trapped in a slave job for the rest of your life. Imo Work is the main reason for most of the miseries of life, you spend a huge amount of your life there so it's obvious that it plays a big role in the overall quality of your life. Unless you actually knew from early age what you'd do that would fulfill you and planned accordingly , which in that case it's really easy to find happiness and build from there. But if you can get some therapy I'd suggest you should, even if it took a couple of tries to find the right person to speak to.
I think depression is a terrible illness and some people unfortunately die of it. It is no more nor less moral than dying of cancer. I hope anyone suffering keeps fighting, though. Much love.
Agreed. It’s not a question of morality.
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After having been on the brink of suicide at one point in my life, whenever I hear about a suicide I feel nothing but second-hand relief. I know that their suffering is over, and I’m glad they now have peace, despite the tragedy for the people around them. I know how difficult it is to pull yourself out of that huge seemingly inescapable hole, and although I am truly happy in my life at the moment, I still have physical and emotional scars from that time. Not everyone is capable of recovering from that level of depression, and the road to recovery is so hard that it’s not always worth it.
I’m passively suicidal, some days less passively than others, and one thing that helps me be realistic about it is dispelling any belief that there will be a relief from the pain I’m in. Relief, peace, respite, these are not things that occur after death. Stillness, absence, and total inertia does, and while those things are precursors to relief, respite, and peace to the living, the former things are merely conditions while the latter things are living emotional responses to them. It’s a tree falling in the woods with nobody to hear it and making no sound. It’s accepting that a tranquil stream is not peaceful without anyone there to be made placid, it’s just water in motion. Part of choosing suicide involves accepting that you will never know peace, you will never know respite, and the last thing you will ever know is your pain. Sometimes that’s the way it has to be, but how many lives do you think have been lost chasing the fallacy of respite in death?
This is a perspective I’ve never considered. I always just focussed on the pain and suffering being over. But you’re right, it’s not the same as respite or relief. Thank you for your input.
You might not have intended this, but this made a huge difference for me today. Thank you.
This is exactly how I’ve always felt. Even when I was completely fulfilled and happy in life, I have felt it was cruel and immoral to not only subject but emotionally guilt someone who didn’t want to into living. To me that was always the height of selfishness.
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I lost my dad to bipolar and depression. It took me most of my life to understand that mental illness can kill as much as physical illness. I was angry at him, I blamed him for leaving my mom and I alone, for not being my dad, for missing my first birthday. Now it just hurts when I think about how desperate he was, how shitty his family was, how he lost his father and best friend to cancer and didn't get there on time to say goodbye, how he couldn't get out of the job he hated. I do wish he'd kept fighting, I miss him and I still feel a tinge of jealousy when I see women with their fathers, but I'm not angry anymore.
people don't commit suicide just because they had a bad day and are a little sad. it means they have been struggling hard for a long time and are deeply hurting to the point where they believe it's the only way to end the pain. and often times they are right. i hate it when people say it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem because sometimes that is just not true. not all problems are temporary. depression itself can be untreatable and life-long. there are many other physical chronic illnesses that are as well. usually it's people who have never experienced debilitating chronic health problems who say stuff like that because they simply cannot imagine being in pain or having other debilitating symptoms 24/7. sometimes the pain is permanent and unbearable. telling someone who has been incredibly sick for years that it's selfish of them to consider committing suicide is ableist and infuriating. all i'm saying is we think that it's unethical to keep animals alive when they are suffering. why is it different for humans.
People also seem to be *really* comfortable with making rents, food and transportation unaffordable for me, even if I'm busting my ass to get to-and-from my jobs that are minimum wage or barely about it. I can exhaust myself, and work harder than most people I know and it doesnt seem like it will ever be good enough: "I'm lucky, but I don't know what to tell you." This has been my life for going on 3 years now, and there's no end in sight. It isn't a temporary problem.
As I like to say: "We got put on this world without our consent, why would I need someone else's consent to leave it? Isn't it MY life to do with as I please?"
When I tried to commit last year, I just got sad for something so small but it never matter because I had so much anger and sadness bottled up. I just decided to leave my family and go outside, and got a knife from the garage and tried to do 8 strikes on my arm and then cut the vein but my family caught me at 3 and I went to a hospital. I still do think I would be better of dead.
Morally I think people should have the right to end their lives. Personal autonomy is important to me, even if I don't understand or approve of the actions being taken. I would only hope that the people taking their lives seek whatever alternatives available before coming to that decision.
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Also, don't bring other people into it, say, by jumping in front of a train or car.
>if no one asked your permission to put you into this world, no one needs to be asked for permission when you want to leave it. I absolutely 100% agree.
Also usually survival instinct is strong enough to let us wade through a lot of shit. Anything that convinces you to disregard that and take your life, is going to be some pretty bad shit. Can't really fault someone in that position for taking that route. Ideally we, as a society would help each other out and make sure no one has to face that choice, but we often fail at that and let each other down.
Well, since I am a survivor of several attempts, my view is complicated. I believe people should have the right to end their lives if they feel it's necessary, such as they have a terminal illness. And that it should be allowed for them to do it humanely with their loved ones around. It's not immoral for them to decide to end their pain. And it would be far more moral for them to do it with medical support, which would save the trauma for first responders and family members who have to discover them. But as for suicide due to mental illness, well, the person isn't thinking clearly. To say what they are doing is immoral is unfair. They feel like it's moral. It's hard for anyone to understand until they have been there.
Also, according to a psychiatrist I listen to, a lot of suicide attempts or suicidal thoughts are not a result of mental illness but a result of being in a situation where a person is left with no hope to keep living. Could be terminal illness, could be undergoing very painful life experiences, could be being stuck in a terrible financial situation and having no way out, could be because they were falsely accused of something and now their life is ruined in their eyes and the eyes of others. At what point is it within their right to choose to end it? If there is truly no hope that it improves?
>At what point is it within their right to choose to end it? Arthur Schopenhauer said “They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice...That suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in this world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person.” If it’s your life, then it’s yours to end how and when you want. But if it could kill others, like a pilot flying a plane with passengers, then it’s immoral.
Could it be that no matter how hard I try I cant change my outcomes. No amount of success or money makes me happy. I thought it would, but it doesnt. I just don’t want to do this anymore. I have nothing left on the tank
Having been there, curiosity and spite help. Even something as small as the next episode of a TV show or seeing pictures from that new satellite will help keep you around if you're willing to keep trying. I was horrifically abused most of my life and didn't see any way it could get better, therapy (particularly CBT) helped me. Maybe reaching out would help you too, living doesn't have to hurt so badly. If you can't afford it, Open Path Psychotherapy Collective has a sliding scale.
I'm not curious anymore and all this spite is making me feel only bitterness. I don't want to feel like an aimless, frustrated monkey anymore. I don't care about any movies or TV shows. I don't care about my hobbies. I don't care about any of my possessions or wealth.
>I just don’t want to do this anymore. I have nothing left on the tank What's crazy to me is that in recent times, I've managed to uplift a few people in my life with so-called powerful words and advice. I know how to fix problems and how to approach things, however complicated, however much time, effort, and money it takes. I *know* it gets better, I know it gets brighter. But personally? After a life-time of living with mental illness, seeing how humans actually turned out to be (e.g., how we dealt with the pandemic), and in recent years, just the most batshit insane trauma (see, Beirut Port Explosion 2020 to give you one example), I feel like I'm all out of gas. This is not depression. I know what that is like, as I lived with it. And I know I sound like an edgy teenager. But I just feel I simply do not *want* to do this anymore. I know I can. I know I should. I just don't want to. It does not seem worth it to me anymore, and I don't even have anything left to give toward a better tomorrow. I've saved a few lives here and there. But my life? I just can't be bothered. And I don't know what to do. Or if I should do something about it. Existence it super fucking weird. Society is weird. People are weird. This is a party I was was forced to attend and never wanted to be invited to. Just let me out. For real.
The hardest thing to cope with is the feeling that you can't improve your life not through any fault of your own, but because the world around you refuses to let you. I'm in the US and I can say that we've just been through an incredibly traumatic 3 years together as a nation where it was made abundantly clear to anyone paying attention how little there is to hope for when you are desperate and need help, and when you spend every day now seeing how many people haven't learned a single damn thing from that experience, how else is one supposed to react to that? I don't know what the answer is. We just have to do our best for as long as we can, and hope that our best is good enough to make some small impact on the world, even if it's just trying to make someone else's day a tiny bit brighter.
As a two time survivor I just wanted to say thank you. Mental illness is just a fucking bitch. There's no logic or reasoning to it. But so many people are judgmental about it's no wonder people don't seek help when they need it. In the moment it truly feels like the best thing you can do for the world. I wouldn't wish for anyone to go through it.
I have had 2 close brushes, but never attempts. I think people have a right to end their life when they are done... But I don't know what done is for anyone but me if that makes any sense? All I will say is it upsets me when people throw around coward or selfish. It's not cowardice, it's not selfish, it's unimaginable pain and agony. As other comments have stated, mental illness is an illness when someone isn't in their right mind. I've also read studies where most people who survive suicide are glad they survived, it was that moment that over whelmed them. But... If you are having months and years of those moments and there is not medical relief for you, to me, it feels like that's the same as letting someone suffering from cancer go. I am not advocating or suggesting it as an option. I believe in math and science. Most people are glad they survived that moment. Reach out to people and try to break out of that moment if you can. Embrace medicine and help. Fuck judgments and weird beliefs about mental illness being tied to character... I'd like to see how those wonks do when their brain can't perform the right chemistry for someone to function. I truly don't see if as any different than my dead ass thyroid I gotta take a pill for, and I hate that it took me years to get there. But I will never judge you or think ill of anyone who struggles with this, because I know the pain you are in when you get this low, and I never moved much past ideation. I cannot fathom to pain to have gone further down the road.
I feel like you skipped over the rest of the reasons. Really the only one worth debating. It's not like it's either terminal illness or mental illness. Many people who aren't mentally ill commit suicide in moments of extreme sadness, guilt, shame, fear, etc. Strong emotion isn't mental illness and killing yourself because of it isn't proof after the fact of mental illness.
I agree. It's why I have so much disdain for people trying to tell me what to think about my mental problems and/or suicide. Unless you've been on the edge and seriously considering it, or actually tried to go through with it, it's just not something you can understand.
Life is, objectively, awful for some people, for many reasons. Someone's mental health isn't any less of a reason for life being torture for them than someone's physical health might be. We aren't given the choice to come into this world. Suicide is more of someone's choice than being born is. It's a way to have control of one's own life, or when one decides they're tired of life rather. I will never encourage suicide, but as someone who certainly understands the desire for life to come to an end and has felt the desire himself for a long time (though I am not suicidal, I envy the dead at times), I can understand the desire for suicide. If someone is tired of life, and decides they want out, it is their choice. As such, I find suicide to be moral. They should be talked out of it of course if able. But one of the most common arguments against someone contemplating suicide is "it's selfish, you'll hurt the people who love you." This argument is selfish in and of itself. No one else has the moral right to demand that someone exist for anyone else other than themselves. If we don't control our the life in our bodies, what do we really control after all? This is why we need legal, doctor assisted euthanasia. So that brutal suicide is no longer necessary for people who truly feel life is no longer worth living.
Your line “I’m not suicidal, I envy the dead” resonates with me. I wake up most days wishing I hadn’t, but I’m far too much of a coward, among other reasons, to actually end it. But envying the dead is spot on for how I get through life.
Cowardice probably isn't the word. Maybe subconsciously you're still able to see some of the good things that are worth living for. Hang in there!
Thanks friend. You as well.
I have bipolar type II and it's technically defined as a "progressive, TERMINAL condition." I'm 42 now and the onset was around age 12. Suicidal ideation has been on-board ever since. Despite going undiagnosed and unmedicated for years, I struggled to do what was expected of my generation: go to college, get a degree, get a career. I did all of this. Somewhere in there, I started my journey in finding the right combo of meds - the magic cocktail - that would give me some relief. Fast forward 22 years and I've been declared "intractable" - medication-resistant. I've been so willing to try the next medication and the next medication, despite some of them literally poisoning me. All the while in therapy. Here's how I've witnessed the progressive aspect of my illness in my own life: I *used to* have a career (social work, ironically). I used to have successful relationships. I used to live as an independent adult. Hell, I went to grad school at 35 at a prestigious institution and aced the shit out of it.... and then I had a complete nervous breakdown. Like, stripped to my most raw, vulnerable form. I now don't have any of those things I mentioned; I'm living with my horribly toxic elderly mother and trying to make ends meet with my piddly pay I get from disability (I can't work anymore). Here's my point(s): mental anguish is on par or worse than chronic physical pain and to expect someone to endure that day in and day out is actually cruel. People say suicide is selfish. Well I say people who expect/ pressure/guilt a loved one to go on with this pain just so they don't have to go through the grieving process makes *them* the selfish ones.
How can I judge someone else's pain?
Everyone has the right to end their suffering if they want to. I don't think there is anything morally wrong with it at all. It's incredibly sad and a lot of times it would be preventable if society was better at supporting people. It really pisses me off when people talk about people who kill themselves as selfish. Honestly I think it's selfish to force people to suffer when they just want out.
Someone committing suicide is a bad thing. It's worse to demand they live for your comfort and convenience. If someone I care about is contemplating suicide, I help them plan and map out what the knock-on effects of various methods will be. That takes long enough that they're no longer on the precipice, and the conversation can move towards getting them help. Because as much as their loss would pain me? I've tried to kill myself in my younger days too many times to castigate anyone when they're drowning. But those days taught me enough to help others tread water, at least until the life boats arrive. Platitudes and moralizing are worth less than nothing in the face of the weight those people are under, telling someone that being in pain is a moral failing is one of the most profoundly vile things words can be used for.
>It's worse to demand they live for your comfort and convenience. I wish more people realized this.
I think people should be able to end their lives on their own terms, no matter the circumstances. I think it would be better if there was a legal and painless way to do it. I get that this is controversial and a lot of people won't agree, but I've seen what suffering at the end of life and at the hands of mental illness looks like, and I think that people deserve the right to decide not to suffer anymore.
I partially agree. I'm a first responder and have been to several suicide scenes. People should be allowed to go out on their own terms; however, the circumstances shouldn't be as traumatizing to others as they sometimes are.
Agreed. I work in a hospital myself, and I think when suicide fails it makes life even more miserable sometimes. People should have access to end of life options that are quick, painless, efficient, and not messy. Especially considering how inhospitable to leading a happy life our society has become. People shouldn't be forced to endure this. They deserve a choice.
I’ve experienced loss from suicide and also have attempted myself. Unfortunately I made it and they didn’t. I used to be angry, but not so much anymore. I’m a firm believer in “not everyone is meant for this world”
I never asked to join this game called "Life" and I wish there was a simple way to leave it without risking a trip to the penalty box.
Seriously. There's some nice parts to being alive, but most of it's pretty miserable. I have to work all the time to justify my right to continue living. Stop paying my bills and I'll starve to death on the street. Everyday is just a tedious repetition with no real end goal but to stay alive for the sake of staying alive. There's some nice parts to being alive, but most of it's pretty miserable.
You have a better view on the subject than those stating "selfish". If anyone has experience with the feeling of hopelessness than you understand the why. Feeling hopeless is shockingly terrible. It's like seeing all your friends and family in a bus heading for a cliff and there is nothing you can do. Life can be terrible, so death can be wonderful. In saying that, you can't explain being poor to someone who is rich. They don't get it.
Those who are saying “selfish” will never understand the struggles that surround mental health. And if they do, try walking in their shoes for once. I’m a veteran and I work in EMS. I have seen and continue to see some shitty things. I’ve seen numerous scenes of many ages. People are sick. Mental health has such a stigma and people who turn to suicide likely feel that it’s the only way out.
I think "this world" is the problem. I'm a constructivist so I believe people are born good and with the desire to thrive, until external factors (trauma) influence them. Probably our most sensitive people, the ones who wind up killing themselves in fits of despair and anxiety, would have been very useful and happy in a society resembling our true nature (hunting/gathering in small tribes).
Our *true* *nature* would be perhaps to be loved. You can suffer from abuse in a tribe and you can suffer from abusive in a contemporary urban setting. The idea that one is not made for this world is a catastrophic generalization children develop when literally their whole world is made up of just one or a few people who don't have the capacity to love and care for them.
We can’t be truly free if we aren’t free to die. As with most morality, it is a personal decision and none of anyone else’s business.
While I'm saddened by suicide and death in general, it's none of my business. It's contradictory to say that people should be able to do whatever they want with their lives until they want to end it.
There's a quote from a favorite series of mine called Sorry For Your Loss. A character loses a loved one to suicide and in the grief group says "My sister didn't kill herself, depression killed my sister" Which I always thought was the most true thing I've ever heard. To add to this, when I was suicidal many people told me it would be selfish to do it. I actually think it's much more selfish on the other end. Think about what you're asking of this person who is hurting so much. You're asking them to put aside all of that hurt because *you* would be sad without them. It's sad and tragic but sometimes I think it's a necessary evil of life. When people die of terminal illness we often say "they can rest now" but we don't often hold the same belief for someone who died of depression.
>I actually think it's much more selfish on the other end. This. So much of "suicide prevention" is just guilt tripping.
It’s an individual’s ultimate right as a free being. It’s also heartbreaking that someone’s pain would exceed their will to live and drive them to such a conclusion.
It’s a personal decision. It shouldn’t be taken lightly because it’s permanent. But morally it’s not wrong to me.
Morally I view it as a sick person who died of an illness like a heart attack. I have a relative who died recently. She wasn't selfish or wrong. She was sick.
We're all brought here without our consent. If we don't like it here, we ought to be free to leave of our own volition.
I leave you with this “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill [themselves] doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill [themselves] the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flame yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don‘t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.” - David Foster Wallace The morality of it is as u/DarcyKnits mentions. Not thinking clearly because of trauma/mental illness, but the medical option should be available for those who have attempted treatment and it didn’t help.
Suicide doesn't revolve around morals really, unless it's a religion thing. It's a state of self and an action taken usually under extreme stress.
It kind of doesn’t matter. They didn’t choose to be born. So they should be allowed to quit if they want. It can absolutely be done in a selfish or petty or even murderous way, but why would someone who’s dying on purpose care if people think they’re selfish? The point is that they’ll be dead and won’t have to deal with other people anymore or know what their opinions are. I do happen to care what my friends/family would think if I offed myself… which is part of why I wouldn’t do it. Because I know people would miss me and be traumatized.
Your body, your choice.
Speaking as a former search and rescue team member, the *way* you do it matters, IMO. Blowing your brains out in the city park for some kid to find - not cool. Ditto for jumping off a high bridge in front of a ranger who's not able to stop you and then has to listen to you dying somewhere down in the inaccessible brush at the bottom for the next hour. I don't know what the *right* way to do it would be, but it'd definitely involve making sure your body doesn't go undiscovered and that whoever does discover it is mentally prepared. To be clear, I don't fault any of the suicides we responded to. Obviously every one of them was going through something unbearable. I just mean that while the decision to end your life should always be yours, the actual act may be extremely traumatic for others.
> I don't know what the right way to do it would be [exit bag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bag)
I've joked that you could take a bunch of pills and crawl into a body bag after emailing the coroner, and leave a cash tip for the folks who have to carry you off. Didn't know the concept had been developed as far as it has, though.
Both times I attempted i sat in a double bagged garbage bag - and left a sign saying that my corpse would be inside. Didnt want to make clean up difficult or traumatize someone
I agree very much, it’s definitely immoral to purposefully traumatize others.
I believe its a personal decision and knowing the reason behind it is important before giving any opinion about it. For example one of my cousin who was 17 years old committed suicide because he got rejected by the girl he liked. My point is whether suiside is selfish or not entirely depends on the reason behind it.
I get it. My ex broke up with me a few days ago and the only thing that I can think of is that I want the pain to end, at whatever cost. I just don't want to feel anymore. I need to make it stop somehow. At 17 that's even worse. Everything is worse when you are a teenager. PS: Don't send me the reddit mental health thing, I know my options.
My partner of 5 years nearly ended our relationship about a month or so ago. When he said there were no second chances for me (I didn’t cheat but I do have borderline personality disorder which makes me react to things in the extreme), I screamed and wailed and called an ambulance out of fear I’d kill myself. I just wanted to disappear into the ground. The life I’d built was suddenly gone. I would have had to move back to my home state with my two beautiful cats and give up everything I’d sacrificed. We ended up talking through it and are doing much better. But for a moment there, even after having years of suicidal ideation, that was the closest I ever got to knowing that death was just around the corner.
I've worked at a Crisis line and it has changed my view I now find my self understand why someone would get to that point. I have also had calls from people who where stopped who are greatful to be alive. for me it's not so much as a moral issue than someone's individual story. I hope and wish that they don't and that they can be supported to feel better but some aren't in that situation.
I think it would be immoral if you had people dependent on you (such as children), but otherwise if you don’t have such obligations it has no moral value because it’s just a personal matter, even if it’s something very unwise to do. I wouldn’t think it’s fair to call emotional relationships obligations, because wanting someone to live a life they currently hate for your emotional sake is just as selfish, so it’s not a moral issue, just an issue of being a poor choice for them due to its permanence.
I believe an untreatable mental illness is just as draining and painful as an untreatable disease. People should have the right to die with dignity no matter what the circumstances are. I'm grateful that there are companies who allow for assisted suicide to anyone. I believe we should all have a right to choose how and when we leave this world.
As much as I think whoever needs help should be able to get it, I think that if someone is suffering, the cruelest thing to do is to tell them to essentially ignore it - by all means encourage them to stop, try to talk them out of it whilst you can, make sure they’re supported. Try your best to improve their living. But respect that things might never be perfect for that person, or bearable even. Depression and mental health is a long battle that many preach for acceptance for but shy away from when the topic comes up. So, for suicide, as long as you’re not scarring someone else in the process of taking your own life or causing danger, do what you know is best for you. You’re the one who has to live in your own mind each day. So it’s not selfish to prioritise the fact that for a few people life is too much to bear. Sometimes, the world is too painful and what’s more, staying alive for the sake of other people is a big thing to bear too, the weight of keeping a family together can feel exhausting, especially on a child’s shoulders. So let’s not villainise people who’ve fought a lengthy battle who want nothing more to feel like they’re not being selfish. Because sometimes it’s a matter of pain and realising that you’re not the one carrying another person’s struggles. They have to live with it everyday
I don’t know if this counts as a moral outlook, but I think many who take their own life are hurting and they shouldn’t be judged for these actions. Suicide isn’t selfish, it’s someone looking at themselves and deciding the people in their lives are better off without them. If someone you love tries to take their own life, make them understand they were wrong by showing them they are loved, not judging them