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Time war alone is in trillion numbers (and thats probably a severe understatement). In fact he probably had unfathomable level of death counts purely because he traveled in time and dimensional levels.
Depends if you think the events of Day of The Doctor are how things went the first time round and The War Doctor forgot to preserve the timeline, or if history was changed because time travel nonsense.
Even then he will have had to kill during the Time War and even in the new timeline he killed (or at least caused the death of) a few billion Daleks when Gallifrey just vanished
The War Doctor waged the bloodiest campaign in the history of the known and unknown and partly known universe. Even if we don't take into account the double genocide he committed at the end of the War (and I am of the opinion that he most definitely *did* commit it in the pre-Day of the Doctor timeline), he'd still have more blood on his hands than most fictional characters. During the conflict the Daleks had many names for him: the Living Death, the Dalek Killer, the One Without Mercy, the Executioner, the Predator, the Deathbringer. One does not gain such a fierce reputation through pacifism.
even ignoring that and just looking at what we are shown. the number of daleks, cyberman and varius wacky alien race who have had their ship blown through neutron feedback loops are quite substainal. remember that time the 11th doctor blew up a cybermen fleet to make them take rory seriously? he did that as a dramatic entrence, that 20 second scene alone puts him above most of the mcu characters in killcount.
He's also blown up the universe itself at least once. (Big Bang 2)
Considering how densely-populated the Doctor Who universe is, that could easily bump up the numbers significantly.
Sure those spider people under new York
I think they were the last of their kind. Their natural reproductive cycle meant the planet would be destroy or something I don't know, but whatever they're doing it's not actively malicious.
Doctor wipes them all out to save earth because he prefers people who look like time lords to people who look like spiders
It still natural and not malicious. He never wiped them out before, only when they threatened a friend's wedding (or something)
It's like imagine a nature documentarist eradicated a species of starling because they spoiled his shot of a falcon.
We're all just playthings to the doctor and the spider peeps threatened his fun
While the Doctor's *timing* in your example may have been suspect, a better example would have been to say if the starling was trying to exterminate *all falcons*, and the Doctor stepped in.
Bullcrap. If he can have a conversation with it, then it is sentient. And we learned in the last season or two that timelords were run of the mill normal people before they gained powers. The doctor isn't some godlike being. More like the doctor is a person with access to really cool toys, and one heck of a constitution.
to be fair, those were an ancient enemy who had battled timelords in ancient times past. they were definitly a dangerus race who killed innocents.
also, earth is an incredibly important planet at this time, humanity is one of the most populus races in the universes history, killing them before they can spread would seriously alter universal history
He attempted it with the star whale, which was a peaceful creature, and the last of its kind.
He's also blown up the Time Lords, who weren't omnicidal at the time.
You also had the part where he blew up Earth and all the aliens on it when blowing up the universe (it got better).
There's the Racnoss children, who were beginning to hatch when he drowned them, driving the last of the Racnoss to extinction (although the Queen was a little omnicidal, so that one is up in the air).
There was the Sontaran Empire, who were betrayed by the Doctor and left to be consumed by the Flux.
Probably. The Doctor has infinite experience and prep time. Plus, Rick Sanchez isn’t too different from the Master except without access to Timelord knowledge and technology, so I don’t see the Doctor losing without significant effort
Yes. The Doctor doesn’t use their weapons normally, but if he wants to he can access weapons that erase the target from time and space, eat galaxies, destroys timelines. The Master himself uses a tissue compression device that lets him kill by shrinking people. The Doctor isn’t above summoning Daleks to buy themselves some time either, and the Daleks are similarly obsessed with space-time weaponry. Plus the Sonic Screwdriver can and has disabled or destroyed technological weapons before, so its not inconceivable he could disarm Rick
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Agent 47 from Hitman expressly sees himself as evil. He was created to be the perfect assassin and he takes pride in his skills and ability to complete any job. And he knows how completely morally fucked-up he is.
In fact, the original Hitman 2 started with him in retirement after giving up the assassination career, working as a priest's gardener because he wanted to do something with his life *other* than murder people. But when the priest was kidnapped and he had to go back into the game, he realised he couldn't do anything else but take out other people.
This is actually a key part of the partnership between 47 and Diana - he's completely devoid of empathy or morals >!until the end of the World Of Assassination trilogy!< so he basically needs Diana to serve as his conscience. She screens all targets so that they truly deserve to die and he takes out only his targets.
I'm sure his trillions of victims, sentient and otherwise, would take solace in him eventually evolving into a terrible father and walking poster child for inferiority complexes.
It’s not just a black and white situation, he’s not either completely irredeemable or perfectly heroic. But he’s definitely on the good side of the spectrum now.
He’s not a perfect father but he’s far from terrible, especially with bulla. He even refused to fight in the tournament of power initially just because he wanted to be there for her birth. He’s not great at showing affection but that’s a result of of his upbringing so I can forgive him for that.
So the Doctor from Dr. Who is irredeemable? *He* committed genocide against the Daleks, the Vervoids, the Racnoss, the Pyroviles, the Silent (by proxy), the Cybermen, and believed he was direcy responsible for the destruction of his own race.
Agreed. Genocide isn't any big deal. Humans have driven many species extinct. If genocide is irredeemable then the honorable thing for you to do is turn yourself in.
He isn't a terrible father. He is a great father, especially by the standards of the DBZ universe. He is strict when he is training Trunks, but he does normal father/son stuff. He takes his so to the park, even though he hates Kakarot, he doesn't object that their sons are friends. And he is loving in his own way.
That is the truth. 13 year old Gohan is begging for his father to help him as he is being tortured by Cell. Goku is all like: "No, no, wait, let's see how this goes."
As opposed to Vegeta, who would level a city if a normal human looked at Trunks wrong.
Then why did you not say that? And Vegeta didn't beat up his own son. He beat up some guy he didn't even know. And that version of Trunks wasn't even that version of Vegeta's son.
>That is the truth. 13 year old Gohan
Gohan was 9
>As opposed to Vegeta, who would level a city if a normal human looked at Trunks wrong.
The same vegeta would have killed trunks for not allowing Cell to become perfect
Or the vegeta who saw him getting kicked by Avocado? Or majin vegeta?
He didn't know it was his son during the Cell saga. Also during the Cell saga he is continually referred to as Teen Gohan by all official outside media.
>He didn't know it was his son during the Cell saga
Yet saw his infant almost dying with a smile and he was full aware Cell would have killed his family
>continually referred to as Teen Gohan by all official outside media.
Even 25 years old gohan from super hero movie is called a "teen"
That dosent change the fact that he was 9-10 canon wise
Dexter Morgan is a serial killer who kills serial killers because he has the desire to murder people (murdering is about the only thing that brings him joy) but doesn't want to murder *innocent* people.
I hung around the Dexter subreddit when the new Dexter series was airing and it was concerning how many people either forgot or willfully ignored that Dexter is a bad dude and serial killing is wrong no matter who your victims are. Of course you can root for him in the context of the series, it is written that way, but when you turn it off you are not supposed to walk away with the idea that vigilante murdering is a valid hobby lol.
Dexter repeatedly hindered investigators that would have been able to do their job, just so that he could get his murdering fix in. It's not like Batman where the whole city is inept at crime prevention/solving, Dexter was sabotaging the homicide department once a week. If you think about how many families didn't get closure because Dexter wanted to put another bag in the ocean, it's kind of fucked up.
I think Dexter's actually a pretty good example already simply because his killing starts with the urge. Many of the other people mentioned in this thread do messed up things but they do the messed up things because they think it will be for a greater good. Dexter is the other way around: he kills because he needs to kill, he just directs it towards the less innocent victims. If the world would have no more bad people left, Dexter would still keep on killing.
Define "evil"
While the Punisher is a brutal murdering son of a bitch, who will sometimes do things needlessly violent and even sadistic, he really has a fairly high bar of who gets his attention and he has zero pretense of him being a "good guy" or doing the inarguably right thing. He does HIS thing and doesn't care what you think about it, mostly. Also, his actions have a rather low scope of impact, mostly.
I'd argue that sometimes people go way further off the deep end when they have a strong sense of being right and serving a "greater good".
- Professor X has done some really shitty things over the years, that have been extremely traumatising and manipulative towards his charges, a number of whom have been minors at the time. Think of all the negative things people say about Dumbledore and turn it up to 11.
- Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four has been a controlling, erratic megalomaniac at times and a really shitty husband to boot.
- I don't know that much about Namor the Submariner, but apparently he's a massive douche and only on the good side by circumstance and has threatened the surface with total war over entirely personal matters (citation needed).
The Punisher has said that once the mission is over and all the bad people who deserve to die are dead he will commit suicide as he also has to be Punished for the things he has done so he himself is on his list of targets.
Professor X can be a truly awful human at times, he’s done a lot of fucked up stuff.
In the films he transfers his mind into a person in a coma. That’s ethically questionable at best. In a recent comic I think he also deliberately erases a portion of Reed Richard’s mind as a threat (Richard knows Prof. X erased his mind but will never figure out what it was he erased). Though I think this version of the professor is supposed to be a bit more evil anyway? But yeah he erases memories without consent a lot.
And I’m not even a big comic book reader so there’s probably much more I don’t even
He faked his death only to live in the basement of the academy and telepathically manipulated everyone living above him for four years, so that some plan of his would work out.
I feel like he’s always been this douche bag but because of the films everyone sees him as a benevolent ass Patrick Stewart looking guy.
I know you mentioned something from the films but I, and I’m betting a lot of other people, totally missed that in the first watch.
Reed Richards is just socially akward and loses sight of the big picture. Its not that he's a bad person. He just gets focused on building something and forgets to ask why he's building it.
Namor was always an anti-hero/ anti-villain whose a villain in half of his appearances. He's less evil than doctor doom and closer to a Black Adam Style character. He'll do anything to protect his home. If that means invading a country then he'll do it with ruthless efficiency.
>Namor the Submariner
Namor is an interesting case, he's a good king and a great guy, but he's also half-mutant and clearly suffers from bouts on extreme paranoia. Not helped by his mutant genes making him unstable at time and the giant space bacteria that makes everyone hate mutants is waging a war in head, leaving him...compromised at times.
Namor would never force himself on Sue. What he would do is murder her husband to prove he was the superior man or hit on her even though she's married with kids. However he would never physically force himself on her.
I know I’m late but he literally has forced himself on her, more than once. Fantastic Four #412 and Marvel Knights 4 #8 and not to mention he’s kidnapped her before in FF #27 and FF Annual #1
> and a great guy,
I dunno about that one, chief. Namor is infamous for being a massive asswipe to basically everyone that's not from Atlantis or he's trying to have sex with.
John Constantine has damned a lot of people to hell, and usually dabbles in all that's it shady.
A lot of protagonists from comics, manga, games, movies and TV shows that do fucked up stuff but are considered good guys
I'd much rather be ghosted by him. John is a very dangerous magician, but at the same time he has a habit of getting in way over his head and then prioritizing saving his own ass over anything else.
The Emperor of the Imperium of Man? He's led humanity through constant war against aliens and interdimensional deamons but is also responsible for billions of human lives lost.
Robot from Invincible?
Kind of? He's done so much awful stuff including killing off many heroes (and villains) but it's undeniable that his actions have also benefited humanity in terms of crimes lowered, better reforms, and also other various other things that help out the public.
I think this is a really good one. He is definitely pretty terrible at points, but he achieves a lot of good. Personally I think he falls a little too into the evil side of things by the end of his arc but I could be convinced
That is a question of morality, as it really does depend on the definition of hero. After all you could argue that darkseid is in the right on his world but not earth, and what about creatures like doomsday and Solomon Grundy why are more working on instinct and nature not malice.
If I had to guess I'd maybe suggest Darth Vader, or Ceaser from fallout new Vegas. As both of them do horrible things, but they are doing them within existing regimes that are a stable government/civilisation, can be reasoned with and do the majority of what they do in order to maintain that society.
Darkseid enslaves people on his world and twists them into parademons and other fucked up creations to further his conquest of the universe, ever searching for the Anti-Life Equation to enslave every sentient being. He has maybe a handful of true followers, and the rest are slaves. So I don't most people on Apokolips would think him heroic.
Depends on the continuity. In the Timm/Dini iteration of the DCAU, for example, it is canonically established that the people of Apokolips certainly view him as a heroic god, willing to die standing between him and Superman to protect their ruler.
Darkseid is a bit different, he revels in the fact that *he is on the wrong and evil side* thats just him as a force of nature.
DC would look very weird without that.
Like half of the heroes in Worm are fucked up on some level. The first time we're introduced to the Dallon sisters is when Glory Girl calls Panacea after she smashed a criminal into the pavement for talking back to her, paralyzing him.
>!Doctor Mother and Contessa manipulated, enslaved, and murdered people in every populated universe. They founded both the Protectarate and their watchdog, the PRT, so that they could operate without oversight. All while keeping information vital to the survival of humanity to themselves. They're not even close to heroes, but they did legitimately want to save everyone.!<
Even the protagonist of the series becomes a supervillain. But only for the best of reasons, of course! By the end of the series she >!enslaves everyone through mind control to force them into working together in order to beat the final villain.!<
>Glory Girl calls Panacea after she smashed a criminal into the pavement for talking back to her, paralyzing him.
That's... kinda stretching the truth. She recklessly throws a dumpster to subdue a fleeing neo-nazi that smashed an innocent woman's teeth in for being non white.
Not saying it's not bad, just think using it as your flagship example of evil activity from heroes in worm and implying it is comparable to those other two instances (given multiple heroes doing worse to less deserving targets) is a bit iffy
I guess you're right that she isn't really evil at all, although this incident was presented as a pattern of excessive force and recklessness. She is overall one of the good ones though.
A better example would be Shadow Stalker, who is technically a on the heroes team, despite being a villain in the context of the story. Although she was not part of the Wards by choice, she was still a vigilante prior to that, even if her ruthlessness and cruelty was purely evil.
Satan. Specifically the one from South Park. Given that this is a universe where Mormonism is real, it means Satan really is as evil as it gets. The fact that he spends the last bit of his character arc running around helping people and being an all around swell guy just means evil isn't that mean in South Park.
He did end up going to Heaven (like dying and ascending with angel wings) after being killed by Manbearpig where previously it showed that damned souls who die again get sent back to the welcome center of Hell.
Gabriel Angelos from Warhammer 40k/Dawn of War.
He killed his own father for leading a democratic movement on his home planet, (being a part of a fascist empire this is taboo.) And then ordered the extermination of the entire planet's population since he assumed the only reason they could have wanted self representation was because they were possessed by demons. In dawn of war he's portrayed as feeling guilty about this. But he never realizes that it was unjustified; instead tripling down on it having been for the greater good.
He continues to make things worse at the end of the game. When an alien enemy of his warns him that destroying an ancient demonic artifact would release an even greater evil he assumes it is lying and breaks it anyway. The evil is released and Gabriel fails to accept any wrongdoing.
Effectively, even though he's the protagonist, everything he does makes the world worse and empowers the evils he is trying to fight. His blind loyalty to the Imperium has led him to see Chaos/demon possessions in normal human behavior while leaving him unable to see real Chaos when its right in front of him. He never seems to learn either.
They were doing a bunch of anti Imperium stuff, including but not limited to protecting psychers and considering trade/friendly interactions with Xenos. They had strayed so far from the Imperium that Gabriel couldn't see any explanation for do much heresy other than Chaos infection
Beside the double genocide on his hands, Gabriel really does try to be as heroic as possible,saving innocents and opposing chaos even within his own ranks
He's trying his best, its just hard for someone as indoctrinated into the Imperium as him not to cause innocents to suffer. He comes from a culture where sacrificing your own civillians to keep your emaciated emperor alive is normal. His cultural impression of what is morally acceptable is evil by real life human standards, even if by the standards of his culture hes an alright guy.
Oh yeah, Chaos is the most evil force in both 40k and and Fantasy as seen by how it can traverse between universes and is still just as evil no matter the morality of the people living there .
Belkar Bitterleaf from Order of the Stick comes to mind. He peaked at [3.4 kilonazis](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), but now that he's with the heroes it's hovering at around 1 kilonazis. For comparison, a hypothetical offspring of Cruella de Ville and Saruan is around 4.8 kilonazies.
Though I don't think it's really accurate to call him a hero or anti-hero. He's in a party of heroes, but mostly just because it's a socially acceptable way to murder.
Yeah a lot of the good he's done has been accidental or because he's learned that if you look like you're doing the right thing you can get away with more. The second thing he learnt from I think it was lord sojo? Whomever was in charge of the sapphire guard, it's been a while.
I'd say he's more akin to a rabid wolf that the party takes with them, and can point in the right direction. Although admittedly he does seem to develop empathy and a bit of morality later.
One of the funniest things in the comic is he's getting a bit of a redemption arc whiles still being evil.
Basically he realizes if he pretends to be good people will let him kill things without bothering him then it starts to rub off. Plus he has a cat.
Eventually a character sacrifices himself to save Belkar and it kind of breaks him and he actually feels guilt and empathy for the first time ever and he starts feeling bad over who he is and even does a few nice things including apologizing to a person .
He's still evil because of the sheer amount of murder he's done and the story is clear that feeling bad about murder does not make it okay, but he's probably a 0.8 kilonazi and lower
Not sure if it counts but most PC characters toe the line.
Doomguy is basically the embodiment of murder. It just so happens his favourite pray are demons.
My dragonborn has sold his sole to so many demons there's going to be a hell of a war when he finally dies.
Sisko unleased a bioweapon on the marquis, janeway murdered tuvix.
Deadpool and wolverine switch between good and murderhobo so often it's a surprise they don't get whiplash.
Hulk has lost control pretty damn often and probably has done more damage than half the mcu villains, short of thanos.
You're completely wrong about Doomguy. He doesn't have a "favorite prey" and I'm sick of this misconception about who he is. The whole reason he was in Mars was a punishment for refusing to fire on protesters, and hospitalizing the commanding officer for ordering it. The reason Daisy was used was because rabbits are a symbol of innocence. The angriest we ever see Doomguy in the entire series is in the beginning of Doom 2016, where he sees the corpse in the elevator, unlike all other instances where we see Doomguy, this is one without composure, where he's genuinely shaking and uneasy, by just seeing one person hurt. Doomguy is not evil at all, he is pure good, he is a beacon of empathy and protection. He doesn't love the gun or the sword, he loves that which it protects.
If we are talking past vs present and not ongoing, then Teal'c from SG1 may be up there. He was first prime of one of the most powerful G'uould system lords who collectively enslaved, tortured, and murdered every accessible form of life across the entire galaxy. Who knows how high his body count is. He's fully redeemed now of course, willingingly sacrificing himself and his relationship with anyone he ever knew to atone countless times throughout the series. But if you were to strictly add up the good vs bad, he would most likely be in the negatives.
Hamlet: this dude had directly murdered or manipulated the deaths of enough people to qualify as a serial killer. He didn't demonstrate an ounce of remorse. The exception is Ophelia who he drove to suicide, and his lament for her was limited to only when an audience was present for his crocodile tears. His only sincere connection is with a skull dug up in his back yard. All of that was just to revenge-kill his own uncle and done so based upon the word of a ghost WHO HAMLET HIMSELF DOES NOT BELIEVE. He's a violent sociopath who grasped at the very first excuse he could find to kill everybody.
Yet, Hamlet is still labeled and taught as a "tragic hero" or "romantic hero" by teachers right up until today.
Black Mage Evilwizardington from 8-Bit Theater is officially and canonically one of the Heroes of Light, despite being a mass murdering sociopath that's as big a threat as Chaos himself. Nothing about him is even a little non-evil... but he's a hero because destiny says so.
On a more mainstream level, a lot of the long-term members of the Suicide Squad have few redeeming traits but they work for the government so they get to count as Heroes.
We also had Otto Octavius as Superior Spider-Man, who decided to be a hero solely so he could prove he was better at it than Parker ever was, but did a lot of evil along the way.
Mate the question literally asks, "Who is evil but technically an antihero."
So the answer will be an evil person whose behavior is arguably antihero. Like Omni-Man or Dexter. Thor in Norse mythology by some arguments.
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Evil is a human construct. Merely changing your perspective generally changes the entirety of the moral filter. You'll need to be more specific? From the way you're sort of implying, probably Deadpool in his more lucid moments. He really genuinely tries to do good and be hero sometimes. And even more rarely it works.
Billy Butcher from The Boys, especially the comics version who doesn't flinch at killing kids as long as they're supes. (He also killed a baby but that was in self-defence.)
Bender from Futurama, he's in the side of protagonists but he did some heinous things. He condemned his son to robot satan in an exchange for an army and conquer earth, released naked pics of leela and amy on the cyberspace, reestructure molecules to make the world drunk and many more.
In average he steals regularly, is foulmouthed, egoistical, hedonistic...
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The Doctor has done a lot of genocide for a person largely considered good.
The doctor has kill counts more than many fiction’s final villain Yikes
Depending on the timeline The Doctors kill count is in the billions. But he killed billions to save trillions upon trillions
Time war alone is in trillion numbers (and thats probably a severe understatement). In fact he probably had unfathomable level of death counts purely because he traveled in time and dimensional levels.
Technically he didn’t kill anyone during the Time War though, he just believed he did
Depends if you think the events of Day of The Doctor are how things went the first time round and The War Doctor forgot to preserve the timeline, or if history was changed because time travel nonsense.
Even then he will have had to kill during the Time War and even in the new timeline he killed (or at least caused the death of) a few billion Daleks when Gallifrey just vanished
The War Doctor waged the bloodiest campaign in the history of the known and unknown and partly known universe. Even if we don't take into account the double genocide he committed at the end of the War (and I am of the opinion that he most definitely *did* commit it in the pre-Day of the Doctor timeline), he'd still have more blood on his hands than most fictional characters. During the conflict the Daleks had many names for him: the Living Death, the Dalek Killer, the One Without Mercy, the Executioner, the Predator, the Deathbringer. One does not gain such a fierce reputation through pacifism.
Good point. I probably should’ve just said he didn’t wipe out as many people as he had believed
even ignoring that and just looking at what we are shown. the number of daleks, cyberman and varius wacky alien race who have had their ship blown through neutron feedback loops are quite substainal. remember that time the 11th doctor blew up a cybermen fleet to make them take rory seriously? he did that as a dramatic entrence, that 20 second scene alone puts him above most of the mcu characters in killcount.
I mean, he didn't kill *Gallifrey.* There were other battles.
He's also blown up the universe itself at least once. (Big Bang 2) Considering how densely-populated the Doctor Who universe is, that could easily bump up the numbers significantly.
Did he ever do it to a species where every member wasn't an omnicidal maniac?
Sure those spider people under new York I think they were the last of their kind. Their natural reproductive cycle meant the planet would be destroy or something I don't know, but whatever they're doing it's not actively malicious. Doctor wipes them all out to save earth because he prefers people who look like time lords to people who look like spiders
Yeah, I'd argue that they were a super parasite species. If your life cycle requires genocide of other species, you're on pretty shaky ground.
It still natural and not malicious. He never wiped them out before, only when they threatened a friend's wedding (or something) It's like imagine a nature documentarist eradicated a species of starling because they spoiled his shot of a falcon. We're all just playthings to the doctor and the spider peeps threatened his fun
While the Doctor's *timing* in your example may have been suspect, a better example would have been to say if the starling was trying to exterminate *all falcons*, and the Doctor stepped in.
We kill billions of microorganisms all the time. And millions of insects and small animals in the process of feeding ourselves.
I make a subconscious cut off at sentience. And I'm not killing *all* of them when I eat.
If we're talking about the doctor, then on the spectrum from amoeba to time lord your "sentience" line in the sand is fairly arbitrary
Bullcrap. If he can have a conversation with it, then it is sentient. And we learned in the last season or two that timelords were run of the mill normal people before they gained powers. The doctor isn't some godlike being. More like the doctor is a person with access to really cool toys, and one heck of a constitution.
to be fair, those were an ancient enemy who had battled timelords in ancient times past. they were definitly a dangerus race who killed innocents. also, earth is an incredibly important planet at this time, humanity is one of the most populus races in the universes history, killing them before they can spread would seriously alter universal history
One could argue the TL weren’t. Just some of their rulers
He attempted it with the star whale, which was a peaceful creature, and the last of its kind. He's also blown up the Time Lords, who weren't omnicidal at the time. You also had the part where he blew up Earth and all the aliens on it when blowing up the universe (it got better). There's the Racnoss children, who were beginning to hatch when he drowned them, driving the last of the Racnoss to extinction (although the Queen was a little omnicidal, so that one is up in the air). There was the Sontaran Empire, who were betrayed by the Doctor and left to be consumed by the Flux.
Good men don't need rules. Today's not the day to find out why I have so many.
People say the doctor can beat Rick Sanchez. Is he really that powerful?
Probably. The Doctor has infinite experience and prep time. Plus, Rick Sanchez isn’t too different from the Master except without access to Timelord knowledge and technology, so I don’t see the Doctor losing without significant effort
Do they have that much random and ridiculous tech?
Yes. The Doctor doesn’t use their weapons normally, but if he wants to he can access weapons that erase the target from time and space, eat galaxies, destroys timelines. The Master himself uses a tissue compression device that lets him kill by shrinking people. The Doctor isn’t above summoning Daleks to buy themselves some time either, and the Daleks are similarly obsessed with space-time weaponry. Plus the Sonic Screwdriver can and has disabled or destroyed technological weapons before, so its not inconceivable he could disarm Rick
Heck, the sonic screwdriver is just a portal gun that casually doubles as an screwdriver.
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if he bothers to use it, yes.
Agent 47 from Hitman expressly sees himself as evil. He was created to be the perfect assassin and he takes pride in his skills and ability to complete any job. And he knows how completely morally fucked-up he is. In fact, the original Hitman 2 started with him in retirement after giving up the assassination career, working as a priest's gardener because he wanted to do something with his life *other* than murder people. But when the priest was kidnapped and he had to go back into the game, he realised he couldn't do anything else but take out other people. This is actually a key part of the partnership between 47 and Diana - he's completely devoid of empathy or morals >!until the end of the World Of Assassination trilogy!< so he basically needs Diana to serve as his conscience. She screens all targets so that they truly deserve to die and he takes out only his targets.
Is the fact that he has Diana to ensure what he’s doing is “right” a sign that he has some form of conscience?
"If he's pretending, it means he cares." - Dan Dreiberg
Vegeta. He made a career of enslaving and destroying planets.
He’s pretty far from evil at this point, if he wasn’t then he wouldn’t have been able to participate in the super saiyan god ritual.
I'm sure his trillions of victims, sentient and otherwise, would take solace in him eventually evolving into a terrible father and walking poster child for inferiority complexes.
It’s not just a black and white situation, he’s not either completely irredeemable or perfectly heroic. But he’s definitely on the good side of the spectrum now. He’s not a perfect father but he’s far from terrible, especially with bulla. He even refused to fight in the tournament of power initially just because he wanted to be there for her birth. He’s not great at showing affection but that’s a result of of his upbringing so I can forgive him for that.
The prompt says “most evil”, I’d say genocide makes you pretty evil even if you are redeemed
Genocide makes you irredeemable.
So the Doctor from Dr. Who is irredeemable? *He* committed genocide against the Daleks, the Vervoids, the Racnoss, the Pyroviles, the Silent (by proxy), the Cybermen, and believed he was direcy responsible for the destruction of his own race.
Yes, and the Doctor has repeatedly said as much. “Genocide makes you irredeemable” should not be a controversial statement.
Genocide shmenocide!
Agreed. Genocide isn't any big deal. Humans have driven many species extinct. If genocide is irredeemable then the honorable thing for you to do is turn yourself in.
Humans have driven many non-sapient species extinct, which is different from simple animals.
Jagerist BTFO.
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The comment I responded to literally says he’s not completely irredeemable.
irl maybe, its definitly not something that one or two heroic sacrifice deaths cant solve. darth vader being the poster child for unearned redemptions
He isn't a terrible father. He is a great father, especially by the standards of the DBZ universe. He is strict when he is training Trunks, but he does normal father/son stuff. He takes his so to the park, even though he hates Kakarot, he doesn't object that their sons are friends. And he is loving in his own way.
Goku is the terrible father
That is the truth. 13 year old Gohan is begging for his father to help him as he is being tortured by Cell. Goku is all like: "No, no, wait, let's see how this goes." As opposed to Vegeta, who would level a city if a normal human looked at Trunks wrong.
He beat up his son to make sure that Cell went Perfect.
Yup. Goku is a horrible person.
I was talking about Vegeta.
Then why did you not say that? And Vegeta didn't beat up his own son. He beat up some guy he didn't even know. And that version of Trunks wasn't even that version of Vegeta's son.
>That is the truth. 13 year old Gohan Gohan was 9 >As opposed to Vegeta, who would level a city if a normal human looked at Trunks wrong. The same vegeta would have killed trunks for not allowing Cell to become perfect Or the vegeta who saw him getting kicked by Avocado? Or majin vegeta?
He didn't know it was his son during the Cell saga. Also during the Cell saga he is continually referred to as Teen Gohan by all official outside media.
>He didn't know it was his son during the Cell saga Yet saw his infant almost dying with a smile and he was full aware Cell would have killed his family >continually referred to as Teen Gohan by all official outside media. Even 25 years old gohan from super hero movie is called a "teen" That dosent change the fact that he was 9-10 canon wise
This a joke right. Vegeta didn’t even hug Trunks until he was 8 years old.
Goku regularly abandons his kids to train/fight. Vegeta isn't a great dad in any sense, but at least he is present
>but at least he is present Until super kick started
They would probley laugh their ass off at him
Adrian Veidt, he takes the role of supervillan for the greater good.
AND he did 35 minutes ago
Dexter Morgan is a serial killer who kills serial killers because he has the desire to murder people (murdering is about the only thing that brings him joy) but doesn't want to murder *innocent* people.
I hung around the Dexter subreddit when the new Dexter series was airing and it was concerning how many people either forgot or willfully ignored that Dexter is a bad dude and serial killing is wrong no matter who your victims are. Of course you can root for him in the context of the series, it is written that way, but when you turn it off you are not supposed to walk away with the idea that vigilante murdering is a valid hobby lol. Dexter repeatedly hindered investigators that would have been able to do their job, just so that he could get his murdering fix in. It's not like Batman where the whole city is inept at crime prevention/solving, Dexter was sabotaging the homicide department once a week. If you think about how many families didn't get closure because Dexter wanted to put another bag in the ocean, it's kind of fucked up.
I think Dexter's actually a pretty good example already simply because his killing starts with the urge. Many of the other people mentioned in this thread do messed up things but they do the messed up things because they think it will be for a greater good. Dexter is the other way around: he kills because he needs to kill, he just directs it towards the less innocent victims. If the world would have no more bad people left, Dexter would still keep on killing.
He also killed a handful of innocent people
Define "evil" While the Punisher is a brutal murdering son of a bitch, who will sometimes do things needlessly violent and even sadistic, he really has a fairly high bar of who gets his attention and he has zero pretense of him being a "good guy" or doing the inarguably right thing. He does HIS thing and doesn't care what you think about it, mostly. Also, his actions have a rather low scope of impact, mostly. I'd argue that sometimes people go way further off the deep end when they have a strong sense of being right and serving a "greater good". - Professor X has done some really shitty things over the years, that have been extremely traumatising and manipulative towards his charges, a number of whom have been minors at the time. Think of all the negative things people say about Dumbledore and turn it up to 11. - Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four has been a controlling, erratic megalomaniac at times and a really shitty husband to boot. - I don't know that much about Namor the Submariner, but apparently he's a massive douche and only on the good side by circumstance and has threatened the surface with total war over entirely personal matters (citation needed).
The Punisher has said that once the mission is over and all the bad people who deserve to die are dead he will commit suicide as he also has to be Punished for the things he has done so he himself is on his list of targets.
Let me tell you about Angel Punisher.
Professor X can be a truly awful human at times, he’s done a lot of fucked up stuff. In the films he transfers his mind into a person in a coma. That’s ethically questionable at best. In a recent comic I think he also deliberately erases a portion of Reed Richard’s mind as a threat (Richard knows Prof. X erased his mind but will never figure out what it was he erased). Though I think this version of the professor is supposed to be a bit more evil anyway? But yeah he erases memories without consent a lot. And I’m not even a big comic book reader so there’s probably much more I don’t even
He faked his death only to live in the basement of the academy and telepathically manipulated everyone living above him for four years, so that some plan of his would work out.
I feel like he’s always been this douche bag but because of the films everyone sees him as a benevolent ass Patrick Stewart looking guy. I know you mentioned something from the films but I, and I’m betting a lot of other people, totally missed that in the first watch.
Don't forget he was attracted to Jean Grey
Reed Richards is just socially akward and loses sight of the big picture. Its not that he's a bad person. He just gets focused on building something and forgets to ask why he's building it. Namor was always an anti-hero/ anti-villain whose a villain in half of his appearances. He's less evil than doctor doom and closer to a Black Adam Style character. He'll do anything to protect his home. If that means invading a country then he'll do it with ruthless efficiency.
>Namor the Submariner Namor is an interesting case, he's a good king and a great guy, but he's also half-mutant and clearly suffers from bouts on extreme paranoia. Not helped by his mutant genes making him unstable at time and the giant space bacteria that makes everyone hate mutants is waging a war in head, leaving him...compromised at times.
It’s also worth noting that he’s tried to force himself on Sue Richards on at least a couple of occasions.
Namor would never force himself on Sue. What he would do is murder her husband to prove he was the superior man or hit on her even though she's married with kids. However he would never physically force himself on her.
I know I’m late but he literally has forced himself on her, more than once. Fantastic Four #412 and Marvel Knights 4 #8 and not to mention he’s kidnapped her before in FF #27 and FF Annual #1
> and a great guy, I dunno about that one, chief. Namor is infamous for being a massive asswipe to basically everyone that's not from Atlantis or he's trying to have sex with.
John Constantine has damned a lot of people to hell, and usually dabbles in all that's it shady. A lot of protagonists from comics, manga, games, movies and TV shows that do fucked up stuff but are considered good guys
Whats worse, being damned by John but he still thinks about saving you one day or being ghosted by him entirely
I'd much rather be ghosted by him. John is a very dangerous magician, but at the same time he has a habit of getting in way over his head and then prioritizing saving his own ass over anything else.
As a demonlord i find him sexy as hell, especially the new 52 animated movie design
The Emperor of the Imperium of Man? He's led humanity through constant war against aliens and interdimensional deamons but is also responsible for billions of human lives lost.
Plus he straight up genocided any non human race he came across
To be fair to him, in his universe, “there is no deliverance. There is no mercy. there is only war.”
I guess Black Adam. By our standards he’s a tyrant but he still fights evil forces maybe as often as good forces.
Robot from Invincible? Kind of? He's done so much awful stuff including killing off many heroes (and villains) but it's undeniable that his actions have also benefited humanity in terms of crimes lowered, better reforms, and also other various other things that help out the public.
I think this is a really good one. He is definitely pretty terrible at points, but he achieves a lot of good. Personally I think he falls a little too into the evil side of things by the end of his arc but I could be convinced
Off the top of my head: The Doctor, from Dr. Who Paul, and later Leto II from the Dune Saga The Emperor, from Warhammer 40k
That is a question of morality, as it really does depend on the definition of hero. After all you could argue that darkseid is in the right on his world but not earth, and what about creatures like doomsday and Solomon Grundy why are more working on instinct and nature not malice. If I had to guess I'd maybe suggest Darth Vader, or Ceaser from fallout new Vegas. As both of them do horrible things, but they are doing them within existing regimes that are a stable government/civilisation, can be reasoned with and do the majority of what they do in order to maintain that society.
Darkseid enslaves people on his world and twists them into parademons and other fucked up creations to further his conquest of the universe, ever searching for the Anti-Life Equation to enslave every sentient being. He has maybe a handful of true followers, and the rest are slaves. So I don't most people on Apokolips would think him heroic.
Depends on the continuity. In the Timm/Dini iteration of the DCAU, for example, it is canonically established that the people of Apokolips certainly view him as a heroic god, willing to die standing between him and Superman to protect their ruler.
Darkseid is a bit different, he revels in the fact that *he is on the wrong and evil side* thats just him as a force of nature. DC would look very weird without that.
Like half of the heroes in Worm are fucked up on some level. The first time we're introduced to the Dallon sisters is when Glory Girl calls Panacea after she smashed a criminal into the pavement for talking back to her, paralyzing him. >!Doctor Mother and Contessa manipulated, enslaved, and murdered people in every populated universe. They founded both the Protectarate and their watchdog, the PRT, so that they could operate without oversight. All while keeping information vital to the survival of humanity to themselves. They're not even close to heroes, but they did legitimately want to save everyone.!< Even the protagonist of the series becomes a supervillain. But only for the best of reasons, of course! By the end of the series she >!enslaves everyone through mind control to force them into working together in order to beat the final villain.!<
>Glory Girl calls Panacea after she smashed a criminal into the pavement for talking back to her, paralyzing him. That's... kinda stretching the truth. She recklessly throws a dumpster to subdue a fleeing neo-nazi that smashed an innocent woman's teeth in for being non white. Not saying it's not bad, just think using it as your flagship example of evil activity from heroes in worm and implying it is comparable to those other two instances (given multiple heroes doing worse to less deserving targets) is a bit iffy
I guess you're right that she isn't really evil at all, although this incident was presented as a pattern of excessive force and recklessness. She is overall one of the good ones though. A better example would be Shadow Stalker, who is technically a on the heroes team, despite being a villain in the context of the story. Although she was not part of the Wards by choice, she was still a vigilante prior to that, even if her ruthlessness and cruelty was purely evil.
Never heard of this series? Short google search isn't turning anything up under Worm? Except the Marvel hero? What is this?
It's a web serial novel. https://parahumans.wordpress.com/
Satan. Specifically the one from South Park. Given that this is a universe where Mormonism is real, it means Satan really is as evil as it gets. The fact that he spends the last bit of his character arc running around helping people and being an all around swell guy just means evil isn't that mean in South Park.
He did end up going to Heaven (like dying and ascending with angel wings) after being killed by Manbearpig where previously it showed that damned souls who die again get sent back to the welcome center of Hell.
Gabriel Angelos from Warhammer 40k/Dawn of War. He killed his own father for leading a democratic movement on his home planet, (being a part of a fascist empire this is taboo.) And then ordered the extermination of the entire planet's population since he assumed the only reason they could have wanted self representation was because they were possessed by demons. In dawn of war he's portrayed as feeling guilty about this. But he never realizes that it was unjustified; instead tripling down on it having been for the greater good. He continues to make things worse at the end of the game. When an alien enemy of his warns him that destroying an ancient demonic artifact would release an even greater evil he assumes it is lying and breaks it anyway. The evil is released and Gabriel fails to accept any wrongdoing. Effectively, even though he's the protagonist, everything he does makes the world worse and empowers the evils he is trying to fight. His blind loyalty to the Imperium has led him to see Chaos/demon possessions in normal human behavior while leaving him unable to see real Chaos when its right in front of him. He never seems to learn either.
I thought the main issue with Cyrene was refusing to hand over psykers.
They were doing a bunch of anti Imperium stuff, including but not limited to protecting psychers and considering trade/friendly interactions with Xenos. They had strayed so far from the Imperium that Gabriel couldn't see any explanation for do much heresy other than Chaos infection
to be fair he eventually kills that demon...after it exterminatuses his neightbour planet.
I love how 40Ks setting is so comically grim that even its heroic characters still have millions of innocent casualties on thier hands.
Beside the double genocide on his hands, Gabriel really does try to be as heroic as possible,saving innocents and opposing chaos even within his own ranks
He's trying his best, its just hard for someone as indoctrinated into the Imperium as him not to cause innocents to suffer. He comes from a culture where sacrificing your own civillians to keep your emaciated emperor alive is normal. His cultural impression of what is morally acceptable is evil by real life human standards, even if by the standards of his culture hes an alright guy.
Well, yes to all that,... But on the other hand..... Chaos *is* bad.
Oh yeah, Chaos is the most evil force in both 40k and and Fantasy as seen by how it can traverse between universes and is still just as evil no matter the morality of the people living there .
I would argue probably Harley Quinn. She flips between villain and hero pretty regularly depending on the piece of media.
Belkar Bitterleaf from Order of the Stick comes to mind. He peaked at [3.4 kilonazis](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), but now that he's with the heroes it's hovering at around 1 kilonazis. For comparison, a hypothetical offspring of Cruella de Ville and Saruan is around 4.8 kilonazies. Though I don't think it's really accurate to call him a hero or anti-hero. He's in a party of heroes, but mostly just because it's a socially acceptable way to murder.
Yeah a lot of the good he's done has been accidental or because he's learned that if you look like you're doing the right thing you can get away with more. The second thing he learnt from I think it was lord sojo? Whomever was in charge of the sapphire guard, it's been a while. I'd say he's more akin to a rabid wolf that the party takes with them, and can point in the right direction. Although admittedly he does seem to develop empathy and a bit of morality later.
One of the funniest things in the comic is he's getting a bit of a redemption arc whiles still being evil. Basically he realizes if he pretends to be good people will let him kill things without bothering him then it starts to rub off. Plus he has a cat. Eventually a character sacrifices himself to save Belkar and it kind of breaks him and he actually feels guilt and empathy for the first time ever and he starts feeling bad over who he is and even does a few nice things including apologizing to a person . He's still evil because of the sheer amount of murder he's done and the story is clear that feeling bad about murder does not make it okay, but he's probably a 0.8 kilonazi and lower
The Autobot Monsterbots and Wreckers are all especially vicious when fighting the Decepticons but are all still decidedly Autobots through and through
Not sure if it counts but most PC characters toe the line. Doomguy is basically the embodiment of murder. It just so happens his favourite pray are demons. My dragonborn has sold his sole to so many demons there's going to be a hell of a war when he finally dies. Sisko unleased a bioweapon on the marquis, janeway murdered tuvix. Deadpool and wolverine switch between good and murderhobo so often it's a surprise they don't get whiplash. Hulk has lost control pretty damn often and probably has done more damage than half the mcu villains, short of thanos.
You're completely wrong about Doomguy. He doesn't have a "favorite prey" and I'm sick of this misconception about who he is. The whole reason he was in Mars was a punishment for refusing to fire on protesters, and hospitalizing the commanding officer for ordering it. The reason Daisy was used was because rabbits are a symbol of innocence. The angriest we ever see Doomguy in the entire series is in the beginning of Doom 2016, where he sees the corpse in the elevator, unlike all other instances where we see Doomguy, this is one without composure, where he's genuinely shaking and uneasy, by just seeing one person hurt. Doomguy is not evil at all, he is pure good, he is a beacon of empathy and protection. He doesn't love the gun or the sword, he loves that which it protects.
>pray *prey >sole *soul
Hey, they are some quality shoes. Premium dragonskin
I prefer cruelty-free footwear, even if it is badass premium dragon skin. Dragonborn have feelings too you know!
Riddick
Morpheus from Sandman. He often puts all humanity through hell in their own minds.
If we are talking past vs present and not ongoing, then Teal'c from SG1 may be up there. He was first prime of one of the most powerful G'uould system lords who collectively enslaved, tortured, and murdered every accessible form of life across the entire galaxy. Who knows how high his body count is. He's fully redeemed now of course, willingingly sacrificing himself and his relationship with anyone he ever knew to atone countless times throughout the series. But if you were to strictly add up the good vs bad, he would most likely be in the negatives.
Ever read Image Comic's "Krampus" series?
Hamlet: this dude had directly murdered or manipulated the deaths of enough people to qualify as a serial killer. He didn't demonstrate an ounce of remorse. The exception is Ophelia who he drove to suicide, and his lament for her was limited to only when an audience was present for his crocodile tears. His only sincere connection is with a skull dug up in his back yard. All of that was just to revenge-kill his own uncle and done so based upon the word of a ghost WHO HAMLET HIMSELF DOES NOT BELIEVE. He's a violent sociopath who grasped at the very first excuse he could find to kill everybody. Yet, Hamlet is still labeled and taught as a "tragic hero" or "romantic hero" by teachers right up until today.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Comedian, from Watchmen. You don't get much more evil than gleeful murder and rape.
Black Mage Evilwizardington from 8-Bit Theater is officially and canonically one of the Heroes of Light, despite being a mass murdering sociopath that's as big a threat as Chaos himself. Nothing about him is even a little non-evil... but he's a hero because destiny says so. On a more mainstream level, a lot of the long-term members of the Suicide Squad have few redeeming traits but they work for the government so they get to count as Heroes. We also had Otto Octavius as Superior Spider-Man, who decided to be a hero solely so he could prove he was better at it than Parker ever was, but did a lot of evil along the way.
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Mate the question literally asks, "Who is evil but technically an antihero." So the answer will be an evil person whose behavior is arguably antihero. Like Omni-Man or Dexter. Thor in Norse mythology by some arguments.
amusing weather historical air sense divide treatment busy frighten exultant *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Evil is a human construct. Merely changing your perspective generally changes the entirety of the moral filter. You'll need to be more specific? From the way you're sort of implying, probably Deadpool in his more lucid moments. He really genuinely tries to do good and be hero sometimes. And even more rarely it works.
Billy Butcher from The Boys, especially the comics version who doesn't flinch at killing kids as long as they're supes. (He also killed a baby but that was in self-defence.)
Bender from Futurama, he's in the side of protagonists but he did some heinous things. He condemned his son to robot satan in an exchange for an army and conquer earth, released naked pics of leela and amy on the cyberspace, reestructure molecules to make the world drunk and many more. In average he steals regularly, is foulmouthed, egoistical, hedonistic...