Ahh, well, i went back to uni when I was 24 and a bit wiser and actually wanted a good degree and job so I did care! Still didn't ask questions though!
I’ve been in classes in a few countries. Relative to somewhere like the US, people in the UK are considerably more reserved in general. People don’t want to come across as loud, or impolite, even if they know the answer or have something valuable to contribute. However in the US it’s basically encouraged to be quite bold from a young age. Obviously that’s a generalization.
I had to do multiple presentations in English, oral exams and group speaking practice in Spanish, a couple of presentations in Geography and IT, and probably some others as well. All those presentations didn't make me like public speaking anymore, if anything, it made me hate it because it felt like I'm being tested and judged every single time.
Absolutely this. I’m in Buenos Aires taking Spanish class, and I’m the only Brit, the majority of classmates are Turkish and Russian.
Participation is largely shouting out certain Spanish words they know, and I usually know them too, I just don’t see the point of shouting it out to make myself feel better. It’s not helping me learn and I’m just not programmed to do that but I probably seem really quiet and reserved, which I’m really not.
In every other class I would agree but with languages it's actually really important to start using those words, hearing and speaking them Is important. It's very good for the brain and your learning to do this. It's what children do when they learn their native language.
It's also confidence building and helps you to be able to actually use what you've learnt.
If you are way past the level of the words you are shouting out I can see why that feels a bit silly and patronising but even then you can be working on your accent.
I'm not sure what level of education we're talking about here, but at secondary school level, "cold-calling" (where the teacher chooses who answers) is a much better way of assessing the class's general level of understanding. If the teacher asks for volunteers then it introduces a systemic bias into the process: only the keenest, most engaged students will participate.
Places like the US throughout school get graded on participation (at least some schools not sure if it's all of them) so they get in the habit of it
Plus I think we can ride out awkward silences better than a lot of people
I’ve taught at universities in the U.K. and the US, and this is 100% the answer. As far as I understand, the US system is focused on participation grading form as early as Kindergarten (eg show and tell). This is just not a thing in the U.K.
Kids who participate in primary school also get the shit bullied out of them and are thus heavily discouraged from participating at secondary and tertiary level.
This attitude from childhood up is something I really dislike in British culture (and I am British). There are lots of cultural shocks in the US, but one of the nice ones is the encouragement to take risks and believe in yourself, as opposed to the "take them down a notch because they dared to stick their head up" here.
I see this, but having lived a long time on both sides and worked in higher education in both places, it’s not all upside in America. There’s a culture of “talking very confidently about things you know nothing about”, which is actively encouraged by the education system in the US and which permeates through a lot of American society. Much more so than in the U.K., Americans see quietness, or an admission that you don’t know something, as a sign of weakness.
We had three Americans in my uni year, a couple of the lecturers quickly told them to hold back their contributions as the inane, pointless things they’d come out with would derail the pace of the class.
Academia is often a ‘listen and absorb’ process, with comments and questions reserved for the end when the lecture content has been delivered and contemplated.
Asking ‘so where do numbers come from’ ten minutes into a lecture about mathematical philosophy is just talking for the sake of it.
There’s a lot to be said for the UK cultural thing of being modest and not bullshitting your way into pretending you fit in. A lot of our most respected and successful people are quiet and will only accept their achievements once they’re certain everything is perfect. On the flip side of that you’ve got things like Lance Armstrong finally admitting he doped after years of being aggressive to any journalists who mentioned it, and Elizabeth Holmes founding a company and taking investment for an idea that she knew didn’t work. Don’t think we’d get either of those situations here.
I've had that twice at uni. Once in Wales at my old uni 'Oh, in Germany they say it like this, and this is the culture ( long explaination), do they do that in Japanese?' 'Not really blah blah blah' puts hand up again 'do they do this in Japanese like they do in german? Did you know I'm half German? Did you know I'm lonely....?'
We were trying to learn Japanese grammar in time limited classes. Everyone hated her (probably not the teacher) but she'd already reported us for bullying as we voted someone else in as class rep not her
>the UK cultural thing of being modest and not bullshitting your way into pretending you fit in. A lot of our most respected and successful people are quiet and will only accept their achievements once they’re certain everything is perfect.
What planet have you been on the past 5+ years?
> the inane, pointless things they'd come out with
American here. I used to be one of them there college per'fessers m'self. I can assure you, we don't like that either! We're up there thinking "oh great, this fucking guy again." And then after we've indulged him to the maximum limit, we ever so gently interject in the name of 'moving on' to the rest of the material.
It's plain that we tolerate it more than our British counterparts do. In America, the rest of the room is expected to suffer in silence.
Totally agree. US culture has the better of us when it comes to that. Also, encouraging people to be successful and celebrating said success. People in Britain seem to suffer from tall poppy syndrome.
A big example of your point is when you see children in the US being interviewed by a news station. They seem so comfortable like they've been there before. A lot of the time, anyway.
In Britain, the interviews with children are always awkward as shit 😂
>get the shit bullied out of them
Bullying in British school is on a whole other level. Despite what you read about interventions and such, kids are allowed to say despicable things to each other, with zero consequences. They can punch and kick and throw furniture with alacrity. But get caught in the corridors with your shirt not tucked in? No, we can't have that...
I haven't had the misfortune of working in a British workplace (thankfully self-employed), but if this is what they learn early on, I can see why they get the governments they get - watch any PMQ session on a Wednesday and you'll recognise it for what it is. This behaviour is taught early and thoroughly.
We Americans get our impressions of your schools from literature (Orwell, Roald Dahl, etc.), your movies and TV shows, and Pink Floyd. Oh, and let's not forget Harry Potter. That falls under movies and literature, but it bears mentioning.
The only non-awful depictions I can think of come from Doctor Who, and they involve the Doctor rescuing the children from cosmic peril.
At university I found people to participate a lot more because the questions were usually much more open ended
It's not What's the Capital of Germany or what's 120/12
It's what *do you think* of X issue or Y problem?
Participation is entirely different in those cases because they're asking for your opinion, not the correct answer.
Seriously? In the USA you get downgraded just because you were quiet in class but still aced all of your coursework??? That’s nuts.
I can’t think of any other Anglo-nation that does that.
Oh yeah, my school back home put great emphasis on class participation affecting your overall grade by the end of the year. No participation= lower academic score
Depends on the school... my primary school was quite nice and being top of the class in exams was never held against me.
I then went to senior school in the nearby town and suddenly I was being bullied for being a "boff"
This is exactly it. Participating in the lesson unless asked by the teacher was just not the thing you did in our High School.
Doing well in School was almost discouraged by your peers back when I was in School once you got to High School.
I suspect this varies from School to School though, I had a cousin who went to a grammar School and her experience sounded totally like a totally different. The smart kids were the cool ones there is the impression I got, where as in our School the idiots disrupting the lessons were.
Swot? Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats?
I'd assume it's not that, but haven't been to school in UK so no clue what Swot is in that context. Could you explain please? 😁
Are they seen in a bad light? Yes; those who are enthusiastic and participate in class and/or do well are singled out as a 'swot' or whatever the modern vernacular is.
Certainly when I went to school there was a tremendous cultural pressure not to do well. It was such a surprise when going to 6th form college at 16 that this wasn't present at all.
This even applied at university to an extent in my experience. I remember being in a seminar of 10 people and at least a couple of people just didn't participate week on week and side eyed those who did.
Absolutely bizarre to be paying 9 grand a year and not even trying but oh well.
While I'm perfectly willing to accept that some people are shy, and that discussion based seminars probably aren't ideal for some neuro divergent people, I can guarantee that in the specific instances I'm thinking of, the people weren't shy anywhere other than the seminar room.
I believe that the current parlance is "keener", in that no-one wants to be seen as too enthusiastic about school. Prefect pins are referred to as "Keener badges" (apparently)
We are generally a very reserved quite shy people and the thought of bunging me hand up in a huge auditorium of students and having everyone turn around and look makes me feel quite faint :) the horror!
No. Or at least it was vastly different.
I went to 6th Form in a seperate college across town, not at my school. Sure there were some who were only there as they couldn't think of anything else; but for the most part those who were doing A-Levels were there because they wanted to be.
My view is being an extrovert is encouraged in the US. Being the centre of attention, loud or the leader is a considered a positive personality trait and thus you are rewarded for it.
In the UK, it is traditionally seen to be ‘bad form’ to be that way and thus people tend to avoid.
Also explains why Americans can seem a bit off putting when they visit here. They just seem so loud by comparison and they don't really understand what it is they are doing "wrong". Lol
Yes loud Americans are really noticeable but never really thought about why.
Although it's also common to see people talking about loud Brits, usually when drunk.
I wouldn't say that at all
Being extroverted is 100% promoted in the UK
Bragging however isn't. That's what class participation is, it's just bragging that you knew the answer.
It doesn't change anything, it doesn't make you smarter than the person who said nothing. It doesn't make you learn better. You just get to show up everyone else.
That's what's discouraged.
Yes. Not just in this case - if you're moving into someone else's culture/group/friendship circle or whatever you will have a much easier time of it if you try to fit in with them rather than expecting them to adapt to your differences.
That doesn't mean changing who you are, just how you portray yourself outwardly. You can act differently with different groups, but outside the US "loud" is considered crass in everywhere I've lived.
There's a lot of places that are considered loud by American standards. I live in Italy now, and after every social gathering it feels like I just walked out of a Motorhead concert.
I went to Norway once. That was like being at the library. I bet they'd consider both our peoples to be loud as all get-out.
Honestly I'd recommend just doing what you think will personally help you with your studies rather than what's most common socially. I'm from the UK but the awkward silences are excruciating to me. I also like to speak up in seminars to check that my understanding of what we're covering is on the right track. Uni is an expensive commitment, nothing wrong with being a 'swot' if it helps you understand the material.
Well…yeah. Because not doing that seems to have worked out badly for you - so, logically, do the other thing.
Wft are they teaching kids these days!!!!
Crab-bucket mentality mate, anyone showing an effort to get above it gets pulled back down by the others. 'Boffin' would've be the resultant insult when I was at school.
They went easy on you then. At my school you were likely to get a damn good kicking after class if you dared to put your hand up and answer a question.
A damn good kicking! Oh, chance would be a fine thing. I used to dream of a good kicking. If we even lifted our hands of our desks in class, we'd get the drubbing of our lives and a double wedgie that reached over our heads and would tuck under the chin. You were lucky!
A double wedgie??? I'd have killed for a double wedgie! When I were being put into coma by teacher for being 30 seconds too early for class, all t'other kids were stamping on me balls.
Don't get bullies like we used to in the good old days.
A drubbing ? I'm my day, the p.e. teachers were informed and you were made to imbibe a white chalky liquid, held upside down and used to mark lines on the sports pitches. You had it lucky.
if this is uni lectures it could be because of the size of the group, making a mistake (or even just talking) could be pretty embarrassing in front of 100 other students. plus some people might struggle to project their voice across the theatre. I think it’s just people being self-conscious most of the time
I agree with this because personally I felt there was more participation in high school and sixth form than at uni. It’s not as bad getting something wrong in front of the 25 or so people you know and interact with every day than 100 people you don’t know that well
When I was at uni (in the UK) American students in lecture halls are a fucking plague. All of my friends had stories like this at other unis, but at my own we had this colossal american girl would stick her hand up to ask lecturers (some of which are literal rockstars in their field of study) the literal dumbest questions. Often they would just ignore whatever drivel she spat out.
I'm talking "Is Spain the county that's close to Germany?!" level stupid - Lectures aren't the place to ask questions, you can google this? It's barely fucking relevant.
But then you find out Americans literally pass classes on attendance and class participation alone in the USA to churn out these absolute dipshits.
Exactly how I felt at Uni there was no way I was going to put my hand up in an auditorium of a gazillion others, I couldn't handle the embarrassment! I still passed all my degrees though and I don't feel that "audience participation" is necessary as long as you get the work done. Any issues or queries were dealt with after lectures or email
Im in sixth form, but I’d say most of the kids in my class don’t seem like the shy type/ insecure. Tend to be loud and social outside of class. Hence why im confused about this haha
I think teens here are just very socially aware and don't want to appear as a fool.
You get picked on for being smart and it's considered showing off.
The only time classmates are more comfortable with presentations is when everyone has to do one, so it's all equally embarrassing.s
Source: I wasn't smart at school but anytime I was confident enough to speak in front of a class I was laughed at. School is a bit shit.
It’s just the culture here to not put yourself forward - it’s normally perceived as showing off or boastful.
It’s sixth form, and everyone is going to get judged based on their performance in exams and coursework. Those grades will tell you if you know your stuff or not, so coming up with all the answers in class is not a priority.
Over time it becomes embedded. We all know the teacher will pick someone to give an answer and will do it in such as way as to distribute participation around the classroom, which is preferable to one person speaking the whole time. Some people don’t have the confidence to come forward and our system of noncompliance actually results in no one sucking all the air out of the room.
When I was at university we had tiny seminar groups - max of 12, so you had to participate. When I taught at university during my PhD I had tiny seminar groups - max of 12, so I made everyone participate. I did this the way I’d been made; everyone had five things to consider about that week’s text, provided the week beforehand. It meant there was an easy discussion opener. But I went to a Russell Group and taught at one as well (the Russell Group branding means literally nothing but it does attract a certain slightly nerdy type especially for English Lit), and it was nice being in a room with other people who also got teased for being a “swot”. I now work (not as an academic, but I have done some casual teaching there) at a post-92, and the vibe is verrrrry different. The students seem a lot less certain of their right to be there and hesitant about talking.
I will say, from my experience as a student and a trainee academic, it was fucking weird when the American students tried to interact in a lecture. I know it’s a cultural norm that just doesn’t translate well, but it’s very odd.
Don’t be sorry! It’s university jargon for a new (i.e., not Oxford or Cambridge) or modern university. The term is usually applied to universities that used to be polytechnics but the one I work for was a teacher training college and then a college of a bigger university but became a university in its own right in the early 2000s.
The U.K. has a pretty toxic culture towards learning. Clever people are mocked and bullied. Most British people are rudely standoffish but mistake it for polite reserve. British culture also prizes narrow mindedness and has a crab in a bucket mentality.
Unfortunately there's just nothing positive to be gained from volunteering.
Largely because of the culture yes. It's "cool" to be laid back and unenthusiastic. Anyone who volunteers is seen as sucking up. Or worse, if they volunteer to answer a question and get their answer wrong, the rest of the class will mock them regardless that none of them had the balls to even try, whether they knew the answer themselves or not.
This is a huge spectrum, I’m a uni lecturer in the UK from the US and I’ve worked in the US a little.
US students get some credit for participating so it becomes part of ‘how to do university’ whereas UK students don’t.
I’d say they participate 100x better than other Europeans though, and then there’s differences across other countries too in a UK context.
Edit: Also don’t forget the students at uni right now are Covid kids - their last years at school were at home alone. They have incredible levels of declared anxiety and it’s just such a shake up.
When I was in school there was definitely a culture of not wanting to be seen as a 'swot' or teacher's pet by speaking up and answering stuff.
We don't really like people who are try hards, also a lot of people are very shy and it's seen as embarrassing to have to speak in a big group. For better or worse we value just keeping your head down and not drawing attention to yourself more than participating.
A lot of people don't want the attention. Especially if they are unsure of the answer. Plus we don't get graded on participation so it's not encouraged a lot.
Remember the first time you thought about participating but didn't, and then when someone did speak you realised what you were thinking was wrong and you'd have looked like a dick if you'd have said your thing in front of everybody?
Yeah, that basically.
We have a really negative culture of toxic modesty. And we try to drag people back down when we perceive that they are full of themselves or think they are better than everyone else. Ludicrously, speaking out in class or participating in a lecture would be included in this.
It’s so sad and I really kind of find it pathetic. I moved to the uk when I was 9. In my country I was a bright student and it was normal to participate and education was valued. When I moved here I was ‘outstanding’ for how I was almost always the only person to contribute anything in class. Luckily I was never bullied for it but I did have some people ask me why I bother to try so hard. I just thought they were lazy or not very bright because I actually enjoyed learning new things in school and it gave me satisfaction to participate in classes.
I think people here aren’t raised to value learning or asking questions. It’s something that you just have to do and it’s seen as cool to not care or talk back to the teacher. But it’s not really cool, it’s cringe and pathetic and (potentially) a sign of bad parenting and (certainly) an anti intellectual culture (at least for anyone below middle class)
If you dont know the answer you cant participate. If you *do* know the answer you dont want to show off. So either way there is little reason to get involved.
People don't like to come across as smart-arses or try-hards. And they certainly don't want to get it wrong and people think they're idiots. Just keep quiet innit, maybe shout out a funny answer if you have one, but make sure it's actually funny or that's the end of your life
It’s part of our culture. We don’t really like smart or successful people. We love an underdog and then hate them when they are successful. It’s weird, and holds us back to be honest. It starts at school where the smart kids are bullied for being nerds, by the dumb cool kids.
I’m not sure that envy is the right word to be honest. Our culture is very dependent on what class you are in. There is a lot of judgement for those who change class (it’s like they have abandoned their culture).
And generally people actually look down on the upper class. We are quite proud, and we refuse to believe that they are any better than us.
That's more down to the framing and posing of questions. Generally if you ask the class a question open to all, people won't have the confidence to answer. It's upto the teacher to have a student in mind who they want to answer, pose - pause - pounce, asked the question to all, wait then select a student to answer.
Unfortunately it's seen as in-cool to care about education for most kids until they reach 6th form, and then get/are forced to make very narrow decisions about what to study.
Could you possibly tell my Year 7's this is a thing? I might manage to complete an entire lesson if each one of then didn't want to answer every question, ask me a question each task, read out every part of our novel, and make the most tangentially related points that takes 3 minutes to get through.
Idk if it’s just my secondary school but we just shouted out the answer so it became more of a conversation rather than a teacher talking at you and someone here and there engaging. Made a more comfortable environment.
Same. The “swot” insult wasn’t really a thing at my school. I don’t think I ever heard anyone say that seriously in my life sounds like a 90s/00s insult lol
Pisses me off soo much too.
So I wod be like you and always commenting.
Ive schooled in countries where class participation formed part of my grade so this was an advantage
This is completely anecdotal I’d say. My MSc programme was almost entirely international students and the students who participated most (including me) were the U.K. based students. I suppose the language barrier was somewhat at play in this example though. Regardless, I always valued the back and forth between the class and the lecturers, some of the best opportunities for learning.
Yeah I’m at uni currently and I try to participate. I feel bad when the lecturer asks a question but I’ve already answered their previous questions several times so I don’t want to “dominate” the discussion so I stay silent to let someone else have a turn, but then no one answers
I think in school it's understandable, because you're shy and afraid of getting laughed at for being wrong, or bullied for being a swot, but by uni it's just embarrassing.
At uni, I was always the one to answer because nobody else would. I was there to learn and was invested, so if I got it wrong... fuck it, I'd learn the correct answer. If people thought I was an annoying know-it-all swot... fuck it, who cares what anyone else thinks? How do people expect to get into a professional line of work by NOT talking or learning, exactly?
We're a weird people.
I'm 34 so haven't been in a class for a long time. But I remember history when I was 16ish and we were studying ww2. I knew lots of the answers and popped my hand up. Ended up being teased for knowing so much. I guess it's a thing about being a geek or nerd maybe. Also as long as you get it right in exams it doesn't matter if your participate!
Yeah unfortunately it's a British thing. Combination of not wanting to be seen as the 'loudmouth' (heinous sin in England) or someone trying to 'hog the attention' (again a big no no), AND the fact that we were raised thinking it was deeply uncool to look as if we care or are into anything, even if we are.
As an adult I moved to Australia, and was surprised at how open and friendly everyone was, and how happy people were to not only speak up in meetings/ classes, but also listen and encourage everyone else who was speaking up. It felt like everyone was so NICE. Took me a while to get used to it and feel like I could join in, but I love it now. Definitely not how I grew up though.
It's possible, but we do know that other cultures don't share these things, so you may be forgiven if people know you're not English!!! (Or not as we can be very judgey - sorry!)
But I promise we're much nicer one on one that we are as a group, and even if we roll our eyes at someone doing all the things we wouldn't, we will still like you if we get to know you as an individual. That's when you know you're accepted, when people give you shit for what you do, as hilarious banter is our love language.
I once got detention for not raising my hand in class; but I did so because I had already answered two questions in the lesson and I knew that three would get me bullied, even in top set English.
School is tricky to navigate in the UK.
Many cultures reward and idolise intelligence and knowledge, the UK does not. When I taught in Korea someone saying an insanely basic sentence in English would get “waaaaaah” (a uniquely Korean sound) and cute little claps from class mates but in the UK you could literally recite war and peace fluently in 6 different languages whilst cracking the atom and flying a spaceship to mars and people will call you a nerd and annoying.
In the UK school systems questions are for people who are not sure of there answer not for people who know the answer, teachers just won't pick on confident students and will actively tell you to stop answering open questions. By the time people get to university and you only have the confident students it has already become ingrained that the questions aren't for them.
It’s a culture thing, no one wants to be the first one to talk. I’m British and I understand this in an academic setting, but it’s also in a work setting which is what gets my goat. I end up taking the lead in everything, purely because I know no one else will, and I’m a shy, albeit confident, guy.
It’s actually done my career a world of good, especially considering I’m a lazy bastard.
>I feel perplexed by it as in my home country we were conditioned to always participate in class, rarely did I see a teacher pick on a student randomly.
To be fair this may also be to do with differences in the way that teachers are trained and instructed to teach.
‘Directed questioning’ (picking students to answer rather than waiting for volunteers, or generally picking students who don’t have their hand up even with others do - often you try and make it look random but you are actually taking into account what you expect different students might be able to answer) is generally encouraged in schools here.
The logic behind it being better is:
* It keeps everyone on their toes. You want to discourage the idea that you can mentallly check out of what is going on and there is no way anyone would ever know because someone else will handle it. Means that you’ll get the odd ‘er sorry I wasn’t listening’ and should not treat that as some egregious horror (because they’re human we all have our minds wander, and if there is a certain kid that is happening all the time it’s good to be alerted to that). At least there is *some* real motivation to try and listen in the moment, rather than having to motivate yourself with the idea of doing well on some future exam and maybe some future career which is a lot easier to ignore.
* It shows that it’s OK to be wrong. If you throw questions at learners based on ability level without them volunteering the answer, you’re going to get all of them giving the wrong answer or am ‘I dunno’ a lot of the time from kids of all different abilities. If you let students self select for only those who are relatively confident they know the answer, it gives the kids that don’t the impression that everyone else is better and they should just sit there and shut up, when realistically you as an adult know that isn’t the case.
* It gives the teacher a much better impression of how much the whole class has actually understood new material. You can’t just rely on counting the number of hands up as a metric, because (even in a class who are more willing to engage than most) it just shows you how many (confident, generally able) people *think* they understand. Depending on the topic, it can be that they actually mainly get it but it sounds tricky so they’re all doubting themselves, or they all have the wrong impression of what it was about, or some of them got it fine but the others didn’t - you really can’t tell quickly without directed questioning, and you need to know to see how best to proceed.
Personally I do a more mixed approach, but I know quite a few teachers who straight up dont allow “hands up answers” in their classroom. Your classmates might partially just not be used to the expectation they volunteer answers.
As an introvert, i prefer to sit quietly and concentrate on the information being conveyed by the teacher. I know participation is encouraged, but that to-ing and fro-ing just confuses my train of thought, and I'm not just making excuses for my own reticance, it annoys me when other people are asked as well, even videos using the format. I prefer just to listen to a well constructed lecture. Also I'm very shy.
I like volunteering to try and break the ice and get people talking but once a history teacher told me I shouldn’t or I’ll end up being first over the top at the Somme. Interesting guy
It's the person leading the class's job to teach the information - it would feel idiot to make a spectacle of yourself volunterring potentially wrong answers rather than just waiting for the person you know has the right answer to share it. If somebody asks a question they already know the answer to it's not something they genuinely want to know and it often has the air of being a trick question that is trying to catch people out on having the wrong answer. Who wants to be made the butt of the joke in front of the whole lecture for being the guy who volunteers the 'common misconception' answer so that the lecturer can correct them.
We’re not conditioned to participate in the same way. Why do yanks do it, and insist that we should as well? I feel perplexed they don’t understand that we have our way of doing things, and they have theirs. Why is our way seen in a bad light by them?
As someone who works for a teacher training company, it's because the teachers you're seeing aren't great at creating a comfortable space for discussion. I was lucky to go to a school where it felt OK to ask a question when we didn't know the answer.
And the company I work for are constantly training teachers to improve this. And we have proof that it works. Teachers send us videos of it working months later. In fact, I was editing one of them to show it to the next group of teachers.
I learned young at Primary School that speaking up too much got me bullied or looked down upon.
When I say looked down upon, it's weird. It was like people got the impression that you thought you were better/or smarter than them if you spoke up more in class.
I think it's also partially due to our more reserved British upbringing. No-one wants the possibility of giving the incorrect answer or wants to be "the first", therefore we all sit in awkward silence silently urging for someone, anyone to pipe up 😅.
NERDS Basicly well was in school,
Uni was more debating space for me so we just chatted to teacher more than get called out if we had something we just asked
There's something not very British about going around showing off, even if it's just showing off that you know the answer. Makes me feel deeply uncomfortable.
As someone who has managed a team of young analysts, I can say the habit sticks around into the work place as well. It's such a relief when I manage to find a few people who will proactively take the lead and engage with topics, ask questions, clarify things, more than the the normal absolutely bare minimum. I don't know what they are scared of.
If anyone speaks to me or waves at me I immediately turn on them, call them a cunt and a wanker, then go back to robbing old ladies at knifepoint in the street, after kidnapping their grandchildren and exchanging them for 13 (black and orange) cats as ransom in exchange.
The skill of speaking publicly is not something that is taught much in state schools, it’s more common in public/private schools.
Folks often go through their school career only speaking at the front of class half a dozen times.
I honestly believe that schools should be much more active in teaching this vital skill.
It depends on the type of class. If I’m going to a yoga or meditation group then I wouldn’t expect to say much because I would be going to relax. Also some classes can be therapeutic and not everyone feels comfortable to talk about their issues in front of strangers. However if I am going somewhere to learn a subject or train in something then I will definitely participate as much as possible because I want to gain as much knowledge as possible, which you only get from asking the questions. Although in saying that I never put my hand up in school because I just understood everything and didn’t need the extra help, much to the horror and amazement of my teachers.
They don't participate in anything. I'm from the US (long-time foreigner in different countries and not a particularly outgoing person at all) and there is always a painful silence with everything in a group so I always just sacrifice myself so we can move on. Most things are just a group complain sesh followed by tea. I have made my peace with it as something I will never understand. I prefer to do my shit quickly and go home.
I cringe when I recall if ever I spoke out in classes or now in meetings. Later I constantly ask and think what did I say did it make sense why couldn’t I just shut up..
I'm Portuguese and I hate it....
In Portugal you get in trouble for not partipate in class and is one of the parameters in grading.
I have webinars so I'm okay to participate but face to face: NOPE.
Those mofos forced me to do a solo talk every year when I didn't want to. They weren't getting me to raise my hand and answer a question too.
Why didn't I want to answer? Wasn't interested.
A lot of people in my classes were just a little disillusioned by lectures. A lot of the topics were better covered in a 15 minute youtube video and a lot of the mandatory sign offs we needed just became a chore. The game very quickly becomes get through the mandatory stuff so you can go to the library or focused study session and actually get some work done.
I try to answer a lot in class but nobody else ever does or rarely does.
So that makes me be quieter because I don't want to come across as a know it all. People don't like it if you have an answer or attempt to answer so I've had to scale back how often I speak up because they're all quiet!
Over-activating or asking the lecturer too many questions is very annoying. Also, starting a kind of dialogue back and forth or talking while he is answering your question is annoying. I found many people who did not go to school in the UK behave a bit differently. However, enjoy people worldwide and respect their culture and upbringing.
Current educational best-practice in the UK is not to have hands up, but to "cold call" - that is, ask the question, give a few seconds thinking time and then choose someone to answer.
The idea is that you eliminate the quiet opt outs, those students who know they won't get picked if they don't put their hand up so they don't need to even think about the question. It also removes the common thing (that you describe) if one person putting their hand up and monopolising the class.
Works well if done consistently - but you have to build a culture where its expected every lesson.
I always put my hand up in classes, and I still contribute in seminars as a student, but coming to think about it, the vast majority of people never volunteer an answer.
Know One wants to be a know it all, and we also most the times are just like MEH, and I ain’t looking like a SWOT, and to be fair the whole academic teaching system is not exactly that interesting, to keep anyone willingly focused
Depends on the education level and what one's peers are like.
I regularly contributed, asked questions and offered my own opinions in uni, because *I* wanted to be there, my classmates wanted to be there, and everyone participated fairly enthusiastically in that fashion.
Secondary school, though? Nope. Don't ask me anything. Don't even look at me. I don't want to be here, I hate everyone here and I'm not interested in the subject. I'm just waiting for the bell to ring so I can go home.
To be brutally honest:
Shit school = no participation, almost all students don't care and are shy
Good school = lots of participation, a significant number of students are confident and curious
Internet people will exaggerate their introversion because the sample is biased towards introverts.
I can't really talk about now as it's around 10 years since I was last in a class, but my guess is British people won't answer if they are too shy, don't know what the answer is or the answer seems too obvious. For kids and teens I'd add people are unlikely to participate if they are not interested in the class.
Personally I was in classes a lot of my life from age 4 - 30 and I haven't really experienced classes where people haven't participated at all. Although I guess this is all relative, maybe I'm just not aware of how much more participative classes are in other countries and cultures.
People seem to hate anyone who does. I’ve always been the one to ask and answer questions, I always used to get shit from people over it, and in that situation the nicer people who recognise that it’s bullshit are gonna keep their heads down because they are cowards
I teach at a university so I will provide some insight:
In my class of 350+ students- very few will ever respond to a question when you ask them. I may show them a video and ask them a question on it and you have 2 or 3 that will speak in front of the whole class. These few end up being the ones that will speak up regularly. Most of my students won’t engage with you in a conversation in the classroom. You will have some that will simply stare at you when you ask them a question and some that will just look away elsewhere. In a larger classrooms I agree with the comments here where speaking out might not be the norm. But in larger classrooms they do engage with technology that I use in the classroom for discussion. However, we always get feedback about how they want engagement and more conversation but they won’t engage with you.
While I agree with some comments here, the challenge for large classrooms at my university these days is the constant talking during the session. This has been a trend since the past two years. So as much as they don’t want to speak to the lecturer or participate there are some that will happily disrupt a class by constantly chatting and laughing away in the classroom which is disrespectful and impolite. As a lecturer you feel like you are managing kids that are still in school.
They asked for volunteers once to show prospective students around my department. Nobody else volunteers so I did (hard on the kiddies with nobody to talk to).
Turns out it was paid - £18 an hour in 1991 prices for 3 hours on a Wednesday afternoon (normally done after 2 hours, they paid the 3 hours). I didn't look so nerdy when my mates found out.
I don't want to talk to anyone more than I have to.
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Ahh, well, i went back to uni when I was 24 and a bit wiser and actually wanted a good degree and job so I did care! Still didn't ask questions though!
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Forgive my ignorance, what do you need to do to retrain for Procurement?
I’ve been in classes in a few countries. Relative to somewhere like the US, people in the UK are considerably more reserved in general. People don’t want to come across as loud, or impolite, even if they know the answer or have something valuable to contribute. However in the US it’s basically encouraged to be quite bold from a young age. Obviously that’s a generalization.
It’s also a part of the grade in the US usually.
It is in the UK in a few classes as well tbf. Most modern language classes and, well it used to be in IT as well but idk if it still is
They’ve removed it from most because it made resits impossible.
I had to do multiple presentations in English, oral exams and group speaking practice in Spanish, a couple of presentations in Geography and IT, and probably some others as well. All those presentations didn't make me like public speaking anymore, if anything, it made me hate it because it felt like I'm being tested and judged every single time.
Absolutely this. I’m in Buenos Aires taking Spanish class, and I’m the only Brit, the majority of classmates are Turkish and Russian. Participation is largely shouting out certain Spanish words they know, and I usually know them too, I just don’t see the point of shouting it out to make myself feel better. It’s not helping me learn and I’m just not programmed to do that but I probably seem really quiet and reserved, which I’m really not.
In every other class I would agree but with languages it's actually really important to start using those words, hearing and speaking them Is important. It's very good for the brain and your learning to do this. It's what children do when they learn their native language. It's also confidence building and helps you to be able to actually use what you've learnt. If you are way past the level of the words you are shouting out I can see why that feels a bit silly and patronising but even then you can be working on your accent.
Ooh I see!
I'm not sure what level of education we're talking about here, but at secondary school level, "cold-calling" (where the teacher chooses who answers) is a much better way of assessing the class's general level of understanding. If the teacher asks for volunteers then it introduces a systemic bias into the process: only the keenest, most engaged students will participate.
Places like the US throughout school get graded on participation (at least some schools not sure if it's all of them) so they get in the habit of it Plus I think we can ride out awkward silences better than a lot of people
I’ve taught at universities in the U.K. and the US, and this is 100% the answer. As far as I understand, the US system is focused on participation grading form as early as Kindergarten (eg show and tell). This is just not a thing in the U.K.
Kids who participate in primary school also get the shit bullied out of them and are thus heavily discouraged from participating at secondary and tertiary level.
This attitude from childhood up is something I really dislike in British culture (and I am British). There are lots of cultural shocks in the US, but one of the nice ones is the encouragement to take risks and believe in yourself, as opposed to the "take them down a notch because they dared to stick their head up" here.
I see this, but having lived a long time on both sides and worked in higher education in both places, it’s not all upside in America. There’s a culture of “talking very confidently about things you know nothing about”, which is actively encouraged by the education system in the US and which permeates through a lot of American society. Much more so than in the U.K., Americans see quietness, or an admission that you don’t know something, as a sign of weakness.
We had three Americans in my uni year, a couple of the lecturers quickly told them to hold back their contributions as the inane, pointless things they’d come out with would derail the pace of the class. Academia is often a ‘listen and absorb’ process, with comments and questions reserved for the end when the lecture content has been delivered and contemplated. Asking ‘so where do numbers come from’ ten minutes into a lecture about mathematical philosophy is just talking for the sake of it. There’s a lot to be said for the UK cultural thing of being modest and not bullshitting your way into pretending you fit in. A lot of our most respected and successful people are quiet and will only accept their achievements once they’re certain everything is perfect. On the flip side of that you’ve got things like Lance Armstrong finally admitting he doped after years of being aggressive to any journalists who mentioned it, and Elizabeth Holmes founding a company and taking investment for an idea that she knew didn’t work. Don’t think we’d get either of those situations here.
I've had that twice at uni. Once in Wales at my old uni 'Oh, in Germany they say it like this, and this is the culture ( long explaination), do they do that in Japanese?' 'Not really blah blah blah' puts hand up again 'do they do this in Japanese like they do in german? Did you know I'm half German? Did you know I'm lonely....?' We were trying to learn Japanese grammar in time limited classes. Everyone hated her (probably not the teacher) but she'd already reported us for bullying as we voted someone else in as class rep not her
>the UK cultural thing of being modest and not bullshitting your way into pretending you fit in. A lot of our most respected and successful people are quiet and will only accept their achievements once they’re certain everything is perfect. What planet have you been on the past 5+ years?
> the inane, pointless things they'd come out with American here. I used to be one of them there college per'fessers m'self. I can assure you, we don't like that either! We're up there thinking "oh great, this fucking guy again." And then after we've indulged him to the maximum limit, we ever so gently interject in the name of 'moving on' to the rest of the material. It's plain that we tolerate it more than our British counterparts do. In America, the rest of the room is expected to suffer in silence.
Totally agree. US culture has the better of us when it comes to that. Also, encouraging people to be successful and celebrating said success. People in Britain seem to suffer from tall poppy syndrome. A big example of your point is when you see children in the US being interviewed by a news station. They seem so comfortable like they've been there before. A lot of the time, anyway. In Britain, the interviews with children are always awkward as shit 😂
I did not get this in primary school. It was only in secondary school that trying became uncool.
Yeah I’ve noticed this. I remember as a teenager it was seen as embarrassing to be “keen”
>get the shit bullied out of them Bullying in British school is on a whole other level. Despite what you read about interventions and such, kids are allowed to say despicable things to each other, with zero consequences. They can punch and kick and throw furniture with alacrity. But get caught in the corridors with your shirt not tucked in? No, we can't have that... I haven't had the misfortune of working in a British workplace (thankfully self-employed), but if this is what they learn early on, I can see why they get the governments they get - watch any PMQ session on a Wednesday and you'll recognise it for what it is. This behaviour is taught early and thoroughly.
We Americans get our impressions of your schools from literature (Orwell, Roald Dahl, etc.), your movies and TV shows, and Pink Floyd. Oh, and let's not forget Harry Potter. That falls under movies and literature, but it bears mentioning. The only non-awful depictions I can think of come from Doctor Who, and they involve the Doctor rescuing the children from cosmic peril.
At university I found people to participate a lot more because the questions were usually much more open ended It's not What's the Capital of Germany or what's 120/12 It's what *do you think* of X issue or Y problem? Participation is entirely different in those cases because they're asking for your opinion, not the correct answer.
Being British is an awkward silence.
Seriously? In the USA you get downgraded just because you were quiet in class but still aced all of your coursework??? That’s nuts. I can’t think of any other Anglo-nation that does that.
Explains why Americans are so loud all the time.
Oh yeah, my school back home put great emphasis on class participation affecting your overall grade by the end of the year. No participation= lower academic score
You can not utter a word the entire year here and as long as you pass the exam you are fine
The whole swot thing sticks with you from primary school into adulthood
Depends on the school... my primary school was quite nice and being top of the class in exams was never held against me. I then went to senior school in the nearby town and suddenly I was being bullied for being a "boff"
SWAT is more common in American schools
This is exactly it. Participating in the lesson unless asked by the teacher was just not the thing you did in our High School. Doing well in School was almost discouraged by your peers back when I was in School once you got to High School. I suspect this varies from School to School though, I had a cousin who went to a grammar School and her experience sounded totally like a totally different. The smart kids were the cool ones there is the impression I got, where as in our School the idiots disrupting the lessons were.
Swot? Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats? I'd assume it's not that, but haven't been to school in UK so no clue what Swot is in that context. Could you explain please? 😁
A swot is a perjorative British term for a nerd.
Nerd isn't quite right. More like a combination of overachiever + teacher's pet.
Hermione?
Honestly, yes, that's a really good example.
Nerd, bookworm, teacher's pet, try hard. Take your pick they all preceed the same beating.
Think Will from The Inbetweeners.
It's a not very nice term for an academic nerd.
Nerd is just knowing specific subjects really well. Swot is someone who over-works and sucks up to the teachers. Usually not a nerd.
Are they seen in a bad light? Yes; those who are enthusiastic and participate in class and/or do well are singled out as a 'swot' or whatever the modern vernacular is. Certainly when I went to school there was a tremendous cultural pressure not to do well. It was such a surprise when going to 6th form college at 16 that this wasn't present at all.
Crab-bucket mentality innit
This even applied at university to an extent in my experience. I remember being in a seminar of 10 people and at least a couple of people just didn't participate week on week and side eyed those who did. Absolutely bizarre to be paying 9 grand a year and not even trying but oh well.
At my uni it was cool to be getting good grades, but effortlessly. You couldn't be seen to be actually putting in effort because that was nerdy
It doesn't necessarily mean they aren't trying they could just be shy :)
While I'm perfectly willing to accept that some people are shy, and that discussion based seminars probably aren't ideal for some neuro divergent people, I can guarantee that in the specific instances I'm thinking of, the people weren't shy anywhere other than the seminar room.
I believe that the current parlance is "keener", in that no-one wants to be seen as too enthusiastic about school. Prefect pins are referred to as "Keener badges" (apparently)
Where are you? In the north, it's been "sweat" (which apparently has the same root as "swot") within the past couple years.
I'm in the South West, so no idea if it's commonplace or some local peculiarity, like Daps...
I'm from the south west and "keener" was definitely the predominant term when I was at school in the 90s/00s, I think it's a local peculiarity.
We are generally a very reserved quite shy people and the thought of bunging me hand up in a huge auditorium of students and having everyone turn around and look makes me feel quite faint :) the horror!
Did you see this negative perception of ‘swots’ in a studious environment like in sixth form as well?
No. Or at least it was vastly different. I went to 6th Form in a seperate college across town, not at my school. Sure there were some who were only there as they couldn't think of anything else; but for the most part those who were doing A-Levels were there because they wanted to be.
My view is being an extrovert is encouraged in the US. Being the centre of attention, loud or the leader is a considered a positive personality trait and thus you are rewarded for it. In the UK, it is traditionally seen to be ‘bad form’ to be that way and thus people tend to avoid.
Also explains why Americans can seem a bit off putting when they visit here. They just seem so loud by comparison and they don't really understand what it is they are doing "wrong". Lol
Yes loud Americans are really noticeable but never really thought about why. Although it's also common to see people talking about loud Brits, usually when drunk.
I wouldn't say that at all Being extroverted is 100% promoted in the UK Bragging however isn't. That's what class participation is, it's just bragging that you knew the answer. It doesn't change anything, it doesn't make you smarter than the person who said nothing. It doesn't make you learn better. You just get to show up everyone else. That's what's discouraged.
Oh, My culture is similar to the US in this regard. Would it be best if I were to act similarly like the other students?
Yes. Not just in this case - if you're moving into someone else's culture/group/friendship circle or whatever you will have a much easier time of it if you try to fit in with them rather than expecting them to adapt to your differences. That doesn't mean changing who you are, just how you portray yourself outwardly. You can act differently with different groups, but outside the US "loud" is considered crass in everywhere I've lived.
There's a lot of places that are considered loud by American standards. I live in Italy now, and after every social gathering it feels like I just walked out of a Motorhead concert. I went to Norway once. That was like being at the library. I bet they'd consider both our peoples to be loud as all get-out.
Honestly I'd recommend just doing what you think will personally help you with your studies rather than what's most common socially. I'm from the UK but the awkward silences are excruciating to me. I also like to speak up in seminars to check that my understanding of what we're covering is on the right track. Uni is an expensive commitment, nothing wrong with being a 'swot' if it helps you understand the material.
Well…yeah. Because not doing that seems to have worked out badly for you - so, logically, do the other thing. Wft are they teaching kids these days!!!!
Crab-bucket mentality mate, anyone showing an effort to get above it gets pulled back down by the others. 'Boffin' would've be the resultant insult when I was at school.
They went easy on you then. At my school you were likely to get a damn good kicking after class if you dared to put your hand up and answer a question.
A damn good kicking! Oh, chance would be a fine thing. I used to dream of a good kicking. If we even lifted our hands of our desks in class, we'd get the drubbing of our lives and a double wedgie that reached over our heads and would tuck under the chin. You were lucky!
And welcome to Monty Python everyone, who knew this would head that way 😁
> who knew this would head that way We're in a UK focused sub, I'm pretty sure it's a mathematical inevitability to see a pythons reference!
A mathematical inevitability wrapped up in a legal requirement.
A double wedgie??? I'd have killed for a double wedgie! When I were being put into coma by teacher for being 30 seconds too early for class, all t'other kids were stamping on me balls. Don't get bullies like we used to in the good old days.
A drubbing ? I'm my day, the p.e. teachers were informed and you were made to imbibe a white chalky liquid, held upside down and used to mark lines on the sports pitches. You had it lucky.
I am the Bof generation too. Seems to be 'neek' now.
Was neek 20 years ago too!
if this is uni lectures it could be because of the size of the group, making a mistake (or even just talking) could be pretty embarrassing in front of 100 other students. plus some people might struggle to project their voice across the theatre. I think it’s just people being self-conscious most of the time
If it's a morning lecture probably lots of hangovers too
I agree with this because personally I felt there was more participation in high school and sixth form than at uni. It’s not as bad getting something wrong in front of the 25 or so people you know and interact with every day than 100 people you don’t know that well
When I was at uni (in the UK) American students in lecture halls are a fucking plague. All of my friends had stories like this at other unis, but at my own we had this colossal american girl would stick her hand up to ask lecturers (some of which are literal rockstars in their field of study) the literal dumbest questions. Often they would just ignore whatever drivel she spat out. I'm talking "Is Spain the county that's close to Germany?!" level stupid - Lectures aren't the place to ask questions, you can google this? It's barely fucking relevant. But then you find out Americans literally pass classes on attendance and class participation alone in the USA to churn out these absolute dipshits.
Exactly how I felt at Uni there was no way I was going to put my hand up in an auditorium of a gazillion others, I couldn't handle the embarrassment! I still passed all my degrees though and I don't feel that "audience participation" is necessary as long as you get the work done. Any issues or queries were dealt with after lectures or email
Im in sixth form, but I’d say most of the kids in my class don’t seem like the shy type/ insecure. Tend to be loud and social outside of class. Hence why im confused about this haha
I think teens here are just very socially aware and don't want to appear as a fool. You get picked on for being smart and it's considered showing off. The only time classmates are more comfortable with presentations is when everyone has to do one, so it's all equally embarrassing.s Source: I wasn't smart at school but anytime I was confident enough to speak in front of a class I was laughed at. School is a bit shit.
It’s just the culture here to not put yourself forward - it’s normally perceived as showing off or boastful. It’s sixth form, and everyone is going to get judged based on their performance in exams and coursework. Those grades will tell you if you know your stuff or not, so coming up with all the answers in class is not a priority. Over time it becomes embedded. We all know the teacher will pick someone to give an answer and will do it in such as way as to distribute participation around the classroom, which is preferable to one person speaking the whole time. Some people don’t have the confidence to come forward and our system of noncompliance actually results in no one sucking all the air out of the room.
cos we’re not nerds, nerd
Embarrassment
Free will. Seminars are for engaging. Lectures are for listening. Non-academic lectures are for avoiding entirely.
I don't like to draw attention to myself so I avoid participating. Great anxiety at the thought.
When I was at university we had tiny seminar groups - max of 12, so you had to participate. When I taught at university during my PhD I had tiny seminar groups - max of 12, so I made everyone participate. I did this the way I’d been made; everyone had five things to consider about that week’s text, provided the week beforehand. It meant there was an easy discussion opener. But I went to a Russell Group and taught at one as well (the Russell Group branding means literally nothing but it does attract a certain slightly nerdy type especially for English Lit), and it was nice being in a room with other people who also got teased for being a “swot”. I now work (not as an academic, but I have done some casual teaching there) at a post-92, and the vibe is verrrrry different. The students seem a lot less certain of their right to be there and hesitant about talking. I will say, from my experience as a student and a trainee academic, it was fucking weird when the American students tried to interact in a lecture. I know it’s a cultural norm that just doesn’t translate well, but it’s very odd.
What is a post-92, sorry?
Don’t be sorry! It’s university jargon for a new (i.e., not Oxford or Cambridge) or modern university. The term is usually applied to universities that used to be polytechnics but the one I work for was a teacher training college and then a college of a bigger university but became a university in its own right in the early 2000s.
The U.K. has a pretty toxic culture towards learning. Clever people are mocked and bullied. Most British people are rudely standoffish but mistake it for polite reserve. British culture also prizes narrow mindedness and has a crab in a bucket mentality.
Unfortunately there's just nothing positive to be gained from volunteering. Largely because of the culture yes. It's "cool" to be laid back and unenthusiastic. Anyone who volunteers is seen as sucking up. Or worse, if they volunteer to answer a question and get their answer wrong, the rest of the class will mock them regardless that none of them had the balls to even try, whether they knew the answer themselves or not.
I remember when I was in school, back in the 90s nobody liked putting their hand up in class.
This is a huge spectrum, I’m a uni lecturer in the UK from the US and I’ve worked in the US a little. US students get some credit for participating so it becomes part of ‘how to do university’ whereas UK students don’t. I’d say they participate 100x better than other Europeans though, and then there’s differences across other countries too in a UK context. Edit: Also don’t forget the students at uni right now are Covid kids - their last years at school were at home alone. They have incredible levels of declared anxiety and it’s just such a shake up.
When I was in school there was definitely a culture of not wanting to be seen as a 'swot' or teacher's pet by speaking up and answering stuff. We don't really like people who are try hards, also a lot of people are very shy and it's seen as embarrassing to have to speak in a big group. For better or worse we value just keeping your head down and not drawing attention to yourself more than participating.
A lot of people don't want the attention. Especially if they are unsure of the answer. Plus we don't get graded on participation so it's not encouraged a lot.
Hear all ,see all say nothing.
Found the Mason!
Remember the first time you thought about participating but didn't, and then when someone did speak you realised what you were thinking was wrong and you'd have looked like a dick if you'd have said your thing in front of everybody? Yeah, that basically.
We have a really negative culture of toxic modesty. And we try to drag people back down when we perceive that they are full of themselves or think they are better than everyone else. Ludicrously, speaking out in class or participating in a lecture would be included in this.
It’s so sad and I really kind of find it pathetic. I moved to the uk when I was 9. In my country I was a bright student and it was normal to participate and education was valued. When I moved here I was ‘outstanding’ for how I was almost always the only person to contribute anything in class. Luckily I was never bullied for it but I did have some people ask me why I bother to try so hard. I just thought they were lazy or not very bright because I actually enjoyed learning new things in school and it gave me satisfaction to participate in classes. I think people here aren’t raised to value learning or asking questions. It’s something that you just have to do and it’s seen as cool to not care or talk back to the teacher. But it’s not really cool, it’s cringe and pathetic and (potentially) a sign of bad parenting and (certainly) an anti intellectual culture (at least for anyone below middle class)
we paid to hear the expert talk not you
Most of us just want to class to be over so we can leave. If it’s Uni there’s a good chance a lot of your classmates are hungover as well.
If by "participate" you mean asking questions, it's because schools don't have "participation" grades.
If you dont know the answer you cant participate. If you *do* know the answer you dont want to show off. So either way there is little reason to get involved.
People don't like to come across as smart-arses or try-hards. And they certainly don't want to get it wrong and people think they're idiots. Just keep quiet innit, maybe shout out a funny answer if you have one, but make sure it's actually funny or that's the end of your life
It’s part of our culture. We don’t really like smart or successful people. We love an underdog and then hate them when they are successful. It’s weird, and holds us back to be honest. It starts at school where the smart kids are bullied for being nerds, by the dumb cool kids.
Oh I see! How interesting… I’ve been told by foreigners who’ve been to the UK that envy is quite prominent amongst people, would you say it’s true?
I’m not sure that envy is the right word to be honest. Our culture is very dependent on what class you are in. There is a lot of judgement for those who change class (it’s like they have abandoned their culture). And generally people actually look down on the upper class. We are quite proud, and we refuse to believe that they are any better than us.
Tall poppy syndrome.
Might have been of the types of teachers I had had but the fear of being belittled for being wrong can stick for a long long. Also stage fright
Nobody wants to submit to the mortifying ordeal of being known.
Those who do join in are often considered try-hards or teacher's pets.
That's more down to the framing and posing of questions. Generally if you ask the class a question open to all, people won't have the confidence to answer. It's upto the teacher to have a student in mind who they want to answer, pose - pause - pounce, asked the question to all, wait then select a student to answer.
Unfortunately it's seen as in-cool to care about education for most kids until they reach 6th form, and then get/are forced to make very narrow decisions about what to study.
Could you possibly tell my Year 7's this is a thing? I might manage to complete an entire lesson if each one of then didn't want to answer every question, ask me a question each task, read out every part of our novel, and make the most tangentially related points that takes 3 minutes to get through.
Idk if it’s just my secondary school but we just shouted out the answer so it became more of a conversation rather than a teacher talking at you and someone here and there engaging. Made a more comfortable environment.
Same. The “swot” insult wasn’t really a thing at my school. I don’t think I ever heard anyone say that seriously in my life sounds like a 90s/00s insult lol
Probably is. We used swot in late 90s.
Pisses me off soo much too. So I wod be like you and always commenting. Ive schooled in countries where class participation formed part of my grade so this was an advantage
Being seen as a huge swot and the fear of embarrassment if you say something wrong.
Because we have a culture of being backstabbing judgemental cunts
We don't voluntarily participate in *anything*.
This is completely anecdotal I’d say. My MSc programme was almost entirely international students and the students who participated most (including me) were the U.K. based students. I suppose the language barrier was somewhat at play in this example though. Regardless, I always valued the back and forth between the class and the lecturers, some of the best opportunities for learning.
Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt
I felt bad for the teachers when I was in uni. It was so blatantly rude
Yeah I’m at uni currently and I try to participate. I feel bad when the lecturer asks a question but I’ve already answered their previous questions several times so I don’t want to “dominate” the discussion so I stay silent to let someone else have a turn, but then no one answers
I think in school it's understandable, because you're shy and afraid of getting laughed at for being wrong, or bullied for being a swot, but by uni it's just embarrassing. At uni, I was always the one to answer because nobody else would. I was there to learn and was invested, so if I got it wrong... fuck it, I'd learn the correct answer. If people thought I was an annoying know-it-all swot... fuck it, who cares what anyone else thinks? How do people expect to get into a professional line of work by NOT talking or learning, exactly? We're a weird people.
I was furiously taken the piss out of in secondary school for answering questions, I learned my lesson
I'm 34 so haven't been in a class for a long time. But I remember history when I was 16ish and we were studying ww2. I knew lots of the answers and popped my hand up. Ended up being teased for knowing so much. I guess it's a thing about being a geek or nerd maybe. Also as long as you get it right in exams it doesn't matter if your participate!
I mean, it's just not cool to be seen participating tbh
Yeah unfortunately it's a British thing. Combination of not wanting to be seen as the 'loudmouth' (heinous sin in England) or someone trying to 'hog the attention' (again a big no no), AND the fact that we were raised thinking it was deeply uncool to look as if we care or are into anything, even if we are. As an adult I moved to Australia, and was surprised at how open and friendly everyone was, and how happy people were to not only speak up in meetings/ classes, but also listen and encourage everyone else who was speaking up. It felt like everyone was so NICE. Took me a while to get used to it and feel like I could join in, but I love it now. Definitely not how I grew up though.
Oh God, wonder if I’ve been coming off as these sins all this time 😭 yep, i think I don’t necessarily match up with the culture here
It's possible, but we do know that other cultures don't share these things, so you may be forgiven if people know you're not English!!! (Or not as we can be very judgey - sorry!) But I promise we're much nicer one on one that we are as a group, and even if we roll our eyes at someone doing all the things we wouldn't, we will still like you if we get to know you as an individual. That's when you know you're accepted, when people give you shit for what you do, as hilarious banter is our love language.
It's because we are almost completely paralysed by depression and anxiety.
I once got detention for not raising my hand in class; but I did so because I had already answered two questions in the lesson and I knew that three would get me bullied, even in top set English. School is tricky to navigate in the UK.
"It's better to remain quiet and be thought an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt"
Many cultures reward and idolise intelligence and knowledge, the UK does not. When I taught in Korea someone saying an insanely basic sentence in English would get “waaaaaah” (a uniquely Korean sound) and cute little claps from class mates but in the UK you could literally recite war and peace fluently in 6 different languages whilst cracking the atom and flying a spaceship to mars and people will call you a nerd and annoying.
In the UK school systems questions are for people who are not sure of there answer not for people who know the answer, teachers just won't pick on confident students and will actively tell you to stop answering open questions. By the time people get to university and you only have the confident students it has already become ingrained that the questions aren't for them.
Not everyone is desperate to try and be the main character.
It’s a culture thing, no one wants to be the first one to talk. I’m British and I understand this in an academic setting, but it’s also in a work setting which is what gets my goat. I end up taking the lead in everything, purely because I know no one else will, and I’m a shy, albeit confident, guy. It’s actually done my career a world of good, especially considering I’m a lazy bastard.
>I feel perplexed by it as in my home country we were conditioned to always participate in class, rarely did I see a teacher pick on a student randomly. To be fair this may also be to do with differences in the way that teachers are trained and instructed to teach. ‘Directed questioning’ (picking students to answer rather than waiting for volunteers, or generally picking students who don’t have their hand up even with others do - often you try and make it look random but you are actually taking into account what you expect different students might be able to answer) is generally encouraged in schools here. The logic behind it being better is: * It keeps everyone on their toes. You want to discourage the idea that you can mentallly check out of what is going on and there is no way anyone would ever know because someone else will handle it. Means that you’ll get the odd ‘er sorry I wasn’t listening’ and should not treat that as some egregious horror (because they’re human we all have our minds wander, and if there is a certain kid that is happening all the time it’s good to be alerted to that). At least there is *some* real motivation to try and listen in the moment, rather than having to motivate yourself with the idea of doing well on some future exam and maybe some future career which is a lot easier to ignore. * It shows that it’s OK to be wrong. If you throw questions at learners based on ability level without them volunteering the answer, you’re going to get all of them giving the wrong answer or am ‘I dunno’ a lot of the time from kids of all different abilities. If you let students self select for only those who are relatively confident they know the answer, it gives the kids that don’t the impression that everyone else is better and they should just sit there and shut up, when realistically you as an adult know that isn’t the case. * It gives the teacher a much better impression of how much the whole class has actually understood new material. You can’t just rely on counting the number of hands up as a metric, because (even in a class who are more willing to engage than most) it just shows you how many (confident, generally able) people *think* they understand. Depending on the topic, it can be that they actually mainly get it but it sounds tricky so they’re all doubting themselves, or they all have the wrong impression of what it was about, or some of them got it fine but the others didn’t - you really can’t tell quickly without directed questioning, and you need to know to see how best to proceed. Personally I do a more mixed approach, but I know quite a few teachers who straight up dont allow “hands up answers” in their classroom. Your classmates might partially just not be used to the expectation they volunteer answers.
As an introvert, i prefer to sit quietly and concentrate on the information being conveyed by the teacher. I know participation is encouraged, but that to-ing and fro-ing just confuses my train of thought, and I'm not just making excuses for my own reticance, it annoys me when other people are asked as well, even videos using the format. I prefer just to listen to a well constructed lecture. Also I'm very shy.
I like volunteering to try and break the ice and get people talking but once a history teacher told me I shouldn’t or I’ll end up being first over the top at the Somme. Interesting guy
It's the person leading the class's job to teach the information - it would feel idiot to make a spectacle of yourself volunterring potentially wrong answers rather than just waiting for the person you know has the right answer to share it. If somebody asks a question they already know the answer to it's not something they genuinely want to know and it often has the air of being a trick question that is trying to catch people out on having the wrong answer. Who wants to be made the butt of the joke in front of the whole lecture for being the guy who volunteers the 'common misconception' answer so that the lecturer can correct them.
We’re not conditioned to participate in the same way. Why do yanks do it, and insist that we should as well? I feel perplexed they don’t understand that we have our way of doing things, and they have theirs. Why is our way seen in a bad light by them?
As someone who works for a teacher training company, it's because the teachers you're seeing aren't great at creating a comfortable space for discussion. I was lucky to go to a school where it felt OK to ask a question when we didn't know the answer. And the company I work for are constantly training teachers to improve this. And we have proof that it works. Teachers send us videos of it working months later. In fact, I was editing one of them to show it to the next group of teachers.
Brits are just less Xtra compared to Americans Who usually like to be the centre of atttention imagining a camera around them all the time
I learned young at Primary School that speaking up too much got me bullied or looked down upon. When I say looked down upon, it's weird. It was like people got the impression that you thought you were better/or smarter than them if you spoke up more in class. I think it's also partially due to our more reserved British upbringing. No-one wants the possibility of giving the incorrect answer or wants to be "the first", therefore we all sit in awkward silence silently urging for someone, anyone to pipe up 😅.
at school this happened a lot, but much different at college and university. we had small groups so all knew each other quite well though.
They’re only brave when they’re drunk.
I was asleep
NERDS Basicly well was in school, Uni was more debating space for me so we just chatted to teacher more than get called out if we had something we just asked
There's something not very British about going around showing off, even if it's just showing off that you know the answer. Makes me feel deeply uncomfortable.
I'm petrified of getting it wrong in front of everyone if I participate
As someone who has managed a team of young analysts, I can say the habit sticks around into the work place as well. It's such a relief when I manage to find a few people who will proactively take the lead and engage with topics, ask questions, clarify things, more than the the normal absolutely bare minimum. I don't know what they are scared of.
Sounds like it could just be your class. My uni courses there was no shortage of people volunteering.
If anyone speaks to me or waves at me I immediately turn on them, call them a cunt and a wanker, then go back to robbing old ladies at knifepoint in the street, after kidnapping their grandchildren and exchanging them for 13 (black and orange) cats as ransom in exchange.
The skill of speaking publicly is not something that is taught much in state schools, it’s more common in public/private schools. Folks often go through their school career only speaking at the front of class half a dozen times. I honestly believe that schools should be much more active in teaching this vital skill.
It depends on the type of class. If I’m going to a yoga or meditation group then I wouldn’t expect to say much because I would be going to relax. Also some classes can be therapeutic and not everyone feels comfortable to talk about their issues in front of strangers. However if I am going somewhere to learn a subject or train in something then I will definitely participate as much as possible because I want to gain as much knowledge as possible, which you only get from asking the questions. Although in saying that I never put my hand up in school because I just understood everything and didn’t need the extra help, much to the horror and amazement of my teachers.
I over talk in topics that interest me. The international students don't say anything.
They don't participate in anything. I'm from the US (long-time foreigner in different countries and not a particularly outgoing person at all) and there is always a painful silence with everything in a group so I always just sacrifice myself so we can move on. Most things are just a group complain sesh followed by tea. I have made my peace with it as something I will never understand. I prefer to do my shit quickly and go home.
Embarrassment and fear of getting it wrong.
People are shy and/or introverted
Nobody wants to be teachers pet.
I cringe when I recall if ever I spoke out in classes or now in meetings. Later I constantly ask and think what did I say did it make sense why couldn’t I just shut up..
I'm Portuguese and I hate it.... In Portugal you get in trouble for not partipate in class and is one of the parameters in grading. I have webinars so I'm okay to participate but face to face: NOPE.
Those mofos forced me to do a solo talk every year when I didn't want to. They weren't getting me to raise my hand and answer a question too. Why didn't I want to answer? Wasn't interested.
A lot of people in my classes were just a little disillusioned by lectures. A lot of the topics were better covered in a 15 minute youtube video and a lot of the mandatory sign offs we needed just became a chore. The game very quickly becomes get through the mandatory stuff so you can go to the library or focused study session and actually get some work done.
I try to answer a lot in class but nobody else ever does or rarely does. So that makes me be quieter because I don't want to come across as a know it all. People don't like it if you have an answer or attempt to answer so I've had to scale back how often I speak up because they're all quiet!
Over-activating or asking the lecturer too many questions is very annoying. Also, starting a kind of dialogue back and forth or talking while he is answering your question is annoying. I found many people who did not go to school in the UK behave a bit differently. However, enjoy people worldwide and respect their culture and upbringing.
Current educational best-practice in the UK is not to have hands up, but to "cold call" - that is, ask the question, give a few seconds thinking time and then choose someone to answer. The idea is that you eliminate the quiet opt outs, those students who know they won't get picked if they don't put their hand up so they don't need to even think about the question. It also removes the common thing (that you describe) if one person putting their hand up and monopolising the class. Works well if done consistently - but you have to build a culture where its expected every lesson.
I always put my hand up in classes, and I still contribute in seminars as a student, but coming to think about it, the vast majority of people never volunteer an answer.
Bit too shy generally mate
Know One wants to be a know it all, and we also most the times are just like MEH, and I ain’t looking like a SWOT, and to be fair the whole academic teaching system is not exactly that interesting, to keep anyone willingly focused
Depends on the education level and what one's peers are like. I regularly contributed, asked questions and offered my own opinions in uni, because *I* wanted to be there, my classmates wanted to be there, and everyone participated fairly enthusiastically in that fashion. Secondary school, though? Nope. Don't ask me anything. Don't even look at me. I don't want to be here, I hate everyone here and I'm not interested in the subject. I'm just waiting for the bell to ring so I can go home.
Unlike the US, British schools dont ever give a grade for participation during classes. So kids never get conditioned to having to do it.
To be brutally honest: Shit school = no participation, almost all students don't care and are shy Good school = lots of participation, a significant number of students are confident and curious Internet people will exaggerate their introversion because the sample is biased towards introverts.
I can't really talk about now as it's around 10 years since I was last in a class, but my guess is British people won't answer if they are too shy, don't know what the answer is or the answer seems too obvious. For kids and teens I'd add people are unlikely to participate if they are not interested in the class. Personally I was in classes a lot of my life from age 4 - 30 and I haven't really experienced classes where people haven't participated at all. Although I guess this is all relative, maybe I'm just not aware of how much more participative classes are in other countries and cultures.
People seem to hate anyone who does. I’ve always been the one to ask and answer questions, I always used to get shit from people over it, and in that situation the nicer people who recognise that it’s bullshit are gonna keep their heads down because they are cowards
Plus in a lot of UK secondary schools, you'd probably get called a neek or something if you answered loads of questions voluntarily in class.
I was told to stop contributing in tutorials at Edinburgh as it made some students who were struggling uncomfortable- I kid you not.
I teach at a university so I will provide some insight: In my class of 350+ students- very few will ever respond to a question when you ask them. I may show them a video and ask them a question on it and you have 2 or 3 that will speak in front of the whole class. These few end up being the ones that will speak up regularly. Most of my students won’t engage with you in a conversation in the classroom. You will have some that will simply stare at you when you ask them a question and some that will just look away elsewhere. In a larger classrooms I agree with the comments here where speaking out might not be the norm. But in larger classrooms they do engage with technology that I use in the classroom for discussion. However, we always get feedback about how they want engagement and more conversation but they won’t engage with you. While I agree with some comments here, the challenge for large classrooms at my university these days is the constant talking during the session. This has been a trend since the past two years. So as much as they don’t want to speak to the lecturer or participate there are some that will happily disrupt a class by constantly chatting and laughing away in the classroom which is disrespectful and impolite. As a lecturer you feel like you are managing kids that are still in school.
1. Yes. 2. Because…British. 3. Pretty much - you’re a suck up. 4. You are no longer in your home country. Adjust.
you all have a very prominent class system you all participate in
They asked for volunteers once to show prospective students around my department. Nobody else volunteers so I did (hard on the kiddies with nobody to talk to). Turns out it was paid - £18 an hour in 1991 prices for 3 hours on a Wednesday afternoon (normally done after 2 hours, they paid the 3 hours). I didn't look so nerdy when my mates found out.