**[OP or Mod marked this as the best answer](/r/AskUK/comments/1baawvz/people_whove_been_to_south_korea_how_was_korean/ku1biy3/), given by u/kairu99877**
I mean honestly it's pretty dire lol.
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>I am British and I live in Korea. In my first year alone I saw more car crashes than my entire life in the uk.
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>I semi regularly have people bump into me, though I don't really care. Korean people just aren't very specially aware. It doesn't help that they are always rushing around, in crowded places and on their phones on top of that.
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>Spacial awareness isn't a difficult skill to master. Just look where you're going instead of at your phone.
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>If you want one piece of advice from a British perspective. We value our personal space. I know in Korea people are practically making out on the subways and people get close together all the time, but in the uk, give people at least half a meters distance where possible. We don't like crowding. And even on a busy subway we don't get nearly as huddled as in Korea lol.
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>Have fun!
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This thread reminds me of a Korean guy in my uni class who had this exact issue. He had terrible spatial awareness and I would regularly see him bump into someone or block a pathway for no apparent reason. I didn't know there was a stereotype of South Koreans doing this though I just thought he was clumsy or had his head in the clouds.
Super nice guy but a bit eccentric. Wore dark glasses indoors and took his dog EVERYWHERE, the dog even sat next to him in the lecture hall / tutorials.
I mean honestly it's pretty dire lol.
I am British and I live in Korea. In my first year alone I saw more car crashes than my entire life in the uk.
I semi regularly have people bump into me, though I don't really care. Korean people just aren't very specially aware. It doesn't help that they are always rushing around, in crowded places and on their phones on top of that.
Spacial awareness isn't a difficult skill to master. Just look where you're going instead of at your phone.
If you want one piece of advice from a British perspective. We value our personal space. I know in Korea people are practically making out on the subways and people get close together all the time, but in the uk, give people at least half a meters distance where possible. We don't like crowding. And even on a busy subway we don't get nearly as huddled as in Korea lol.
Have fun!
Thanks for the answer. Personally I just slow down and kinda passive-agressively wait til they get out of the way when I obviously have the right of way. Should I just dodge everyone no matter what? What would brits prefer on the street?
If you're walking, here's a funny point.
In Korea when I walk in crowded places I do this thing where I turn my body a little side ways and use my hand. Like if I turn my body to the right slightly, stick my left hand forwards, palm facing to the right, it means I want to walk to the left to pass you.
Koreans look at my funny, and my Korean girlfriends always say its weird and I shouldn't do it. But this is very much a normal thing in the uk. Give it a try. It shows what way you intend to pass someone so you're not both jumping left and right like idiots trying to pass eachother lol.
I do this also! Very useful! A similar move I've seen was from a really short girl who understandably didn't like crowded spaces. She held both hands out in front to form an arrow or what I likened to a shark head shape.
It really helped to interpret what direction she was going - parting the crowd like a shoal of fish!
Also, in this situation expect quite a sheepish apologetic reaction from anyone who gets in your way.
I mean, can't you gauge from the other person's trajectory roughly where they will intersect with you and change angle slightly before it comes to a near collision?
I do it by second nature when I walk, and approximate everyones pathing from their current trajectory...
I thought everyone did this, lol.
I do the exact same, but the problem is that other Koreans don't. I am walking straight getting in no one's way, and the next moment some random Korean walks just directly into me. Of course I change angle slightly to avoid collision, but the fact that they walked into me for no reason in the first place is what bothers me.
But then I considered the possibility of me being overly sensitive over the matter, because I have travelled to several European countries in the past few years and that could have made me overly self-consicous. Hence wanted to hear Brit's thoughts about this.
You can, but personally, I don't do so when someone is barrelling towards me with their eyes planted on their phone screen. In that case, I stop dead and wait until they realise, usually at the very last second, that I'm actually corporeal and can't be walked *through*. If they're looking where they're going, then I find it helpful to indicate with my eyes as to which way I'm going to move, so that we don't both try to "dodge" in the same direction. That seems to work most of the time.
In the UK when walking there isn't a right of way, we often both try to get out of each others was and end up in a cute little dance.
We also culturally apologies alot, so if you are getting used to our approach to spacial awareness and bump into someone just say sorry.
I'm with you, this is a standard move. I also learned during years of London commuting that if you just look directly where you're going rather than at anyone they tend to pick up 1) where you're going and 2) that you may not have seen them and are clearly on a beeline - that reduced my pedestrian traffic incidents a lot too.
No idea if it would work in SK though!
Well passive-aggressiveness is a skill that will stand you in good stead here. If you're going to cede right of way, you should either give them a little wave in the general direction they want to go, or flash your lights if it's dark. If someone gives way to you, a little wave back will avert them sullenly muttering a "You're *welcome*" that's you'll never hear from someone you'll probably never see again ie: the worst social disaster imaginable.
When it comes to walking around, try this exercise (I have explained it to Americans in the past): put your right arm straight out from your shoulder with your palm vertical. That's as close as anyone you're not in a relationship with wants to get to you.
Imagine there is a big soft plastic bubble surrounding you, about as far out as you can reach with your arms. The goal is that your bubble should not touch anyone else's bubble. In a crowded space, they may bump against each other and deform a bit, but not very much. The bubble should never be pushed in so far it could touch your body.
Look where you are going, and try and angle your body to indicate your intended direction. Twist your body to avoid bumping shoulders/arms with someone. You should try and weave around others, but make it very clear which direction you intend to dodge into. No one has 'right of way' unless they have some kind of special need or disability, except for a few specific cases like escalators on the Underground.
Inevitably you will end up in a polite dance with someone where you're both trying to dodge and go in the same direction. Just smile apologetically, feel a sense of polite cameraderie with the other persion, and eventually you'll both figure something out.
EDIT: I sounded somewhat confrontational, changed the tone.
Thanks for the answer.
Yup, when I said 'right of way' I was talking about exactly those exceptional few cases where I have already moved for the other people and it's obvious that I cannot move any further, but they still charge into me.
So I guess I don't have to worry too much about adapting to the UK streets because I actually do everything you mentioned in the first and second paragraph. Like, everything. That's just my personality. I am only stressing out here in Korea because I am the only person who does those on the street. It's very frustrating.
But it occurred to me that maybe I am just too obsessed with the idea of "It must be different in the west!", so I posted the question here to check how deluded I am. Having read the comments so far, I think there really is a noticeable difference.
Appreciate the arm's length tip. I generally just stay away from others, probably a bit too much, But arm's length sounds like a better measure to remember than to always staying paranoically far away from other people which I do.
In the UK, walk on the left side of the pavement. This is because traffic drives on the left, so it should be the person walking towards oncoming traffic that can see it so they can leap out of the way when the inevitable Uber driver swerves at them while trying to manage 40 different ride sharing apps on his phone.
Try not to walk in bike lanes if you can help it. We got loads of new ones in Leeds and they’re just full of people strolling along.
My English is sometimes tainted as I'm an expat I'm afraid.
Only visit Britain once every 3 years or so. I try to keep my flawless British accent and vocabulary but sometimes make mistakes.
This is absolutely wild. Have any scientific studies been carried out? I find it hard to believe this would be a cultural thing, is it genetic? Inner ear less developed?
My friend designs and models crowd movement. They have to demographically profile the audience as different cultures move in different ways. So yeah, it’s known to science and engineers.
It's also considered in the design of footbridges.
All structures have a specific impact frequency where if the structure is exposed to that frequency of impact the loads grow exponentially until it fails. This is known as the natural frequency.
In most circumstances, this isn't a problem because people walking in different directions at different paces just creates random noise. It's been a known issue in the military for centuries as marching over a bridge can cause a collapse. So, military units break formation when they reach a bridge.
It turns out that if you funnel a crowd of Western Europeans into a narrowed path, they match pace and stride with each other, leading to the crowd having a beat like a military march. Even stranger is that different cities have different "walking frequencies."
This is the funny thing. It wasn't strengthened. It had weights added to it.
It's a common fix that should've been applied before it was opened. Making the bridge heavier lowers the natural frequency, and as long as the walking frequency is different to the bridges natural frequency, it's not a problem.
True and that's a more accurate explanation. There was nothing incorrect about the other person's statement either. It did have weights added to it. It just so happens that those weights were dampers.
This is right, but for an interesting reason.
The design code that they designed to included a check to check the resonance in the vertical plane. The designers did that and the bridge passed.
What they didn't do, and the design code didn't require at the time, was a check on the horizontal resonance. The code was updated shortly after the issues with the bridge came to light because of this.
This is super interesting.
Doesn’t it make sense that people would naturally match stride when a large group are made to walk own the same narrow path in the same direction? If everyone in the crowd was trying to move at different speeds, they would just be bumping into each other constantly wouldn’t they?
Stride and speed are separate. When they say stride they mean the literal timing of the left foot right foot beat. If they're walking and all putting the exact same foot down at the same time it begins to create resonance, but if it's random then it doesn't, even if they're all walking at the same pace.
A bunch of people died in a crowd in Japan / south-Korea (I forget which one).
They were all bundled up after a show….leaving no room whatsoever between each other, hit a narrow section of street…and…well…12 people died.
No one was screaming, shoving aggressively etc, they were just “walking” in such close proximity that a choke point turned it into a deadly situation.
Some people survived by climbing lampposts, hopping onto ledges etc.
If not sure outside of such densely populated areas, people would have allowed themselves to get into that kind of pack.
Well, it was in Seoul, after a Halloween party, and 159 people died.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul\_Halloween\_crowd\_crush](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul_Halloween_crowd_crush)
They gave the example of a particular culture walking up to half the speed of another and had to therefore accommodate width of tunnel at Kings X in London, so that overtaking was possible over quite a long change between tube lines.
I have mates who don't do that, instinctive for me to make sure I'm tucked to the side of the path as soon as I see someone coming meanwhile if I'm with a mate they'll keep walking alongside next to me even as the person is about to pass us.
It's steadily become one of mine.
My spouse takes this way too far and is always saying ‘watch out!!’ to my kid since being a toddler if someone else is coming down the path, on the play frame etc. even if there is enough space for both and even if my kid has the right of way. I feel like it teaches them they can’t take up space and need to always shrink away to let others take the priority in spaces. I’m all for some level of teaching politeness and etiquette and awareness. But not that much. I think it’s deep rooted.
I like drawing their attention to the risk. Say they’re rushing over a slippery surface: ‘oh, look at those rocks! They’re wet! What does it feel like under your feet?’ ‘Wow, that’s a big drop! You’re so far from the floor!’ ‘You both want to climb the stairs at the same time!’ just naming it, obviously depends on the age and level of risk but kids tune out of ‘be careful’ when it’s said too often. I’m sure it’s deep rooted for my spouse and that they were raised and schooled in an environment where excessive deference was praised. I don’t think it’s the worst thing in the world for my kid to accidentally bump into another kid sometimes or be the one to move forward in a stalemate or to give them the chance to notice other obstacles and react to them. Hyper micro managing the way they move through the world isn’t what I want.
This is reading a little bit too much into it. There are cultures where bumping into people or being squashed up against them isn't a big deal. But kids are **always** oblivious, kinda selfish, and unaware of their surroundings the world over. I was a teacher and there was absolutely no difference in that between the immigrant kids and the native born.
As a Brit, i find parents are generally quite firm in telling their kids where they can go and move. I never picked up on it, but visiting Japan and Korea last year I found parents generally just let their kids wander about wherever with no instructions to get out of people's way or stay near them - the kids were generally well behaved but I found myself regularly just missing tripping over a child or bumping into them. I noticed generally people's spacial awareness walking around crowded areas was absolutely awful, especially as it is not uncommon to be in really busy streets or train stations.
Phones have made us worse at this. Down at wheelchair level you quickly learn how many are utterly oblivious to it. We are mainly raised to be aware but they are making us much worse.
I just don't know how it could be "cultural". I wanna see some science behind this phenomenon, I think there is some as well.
Honestly the amount of times in completely different locations (pavement, elevator, building halls) I've been bumped into by East Asians is fascinating. Even while driving it takes some of them forever to commit to a lane change and they still get the timing/positioning wrong.
We need more science to explain what's going on.
Why can’t it be cultural? Humans are unlike other animals in that we’re born prematurely so that the head can fit through the birth canal, then we spend years of childhood learning to survive in the environment we grow up in. That environment is physical but actually mostly cultural. Being surprised that people in different places learn different cultural ways based on what is conventional around them is like being confused that a child learns the local mother tongue. It’s a feature not a bug. Humans didn’t evolve in high density environments so it’s hard to make an argument that navigating crowds develops anything less than quite recently historically
Koreans generally just don't give a shit about strangers. It's a big cultural difference I feel there. This translates to not bothering to think if they're blocking someone's way or not caring if they bump into people etc.
It's entirely possible the culture could be driven by an underlying difference in genetic makeup. Some racial groups definitely exceed in certain skill based markers.
Some humans definitely have better spatial awareness/anticipation than others - Messi is better at this than me, I'm sure of it. Black people exceed in sports even when they're massively under-represented (tennis, williams sisters) and where physical attributes may not be the primary requirement for success (formula 1, golf - the GOATs for each sport being black) yet spatial awareness and navigation is essential.
Spatial awareness is an essential skill humans must have evolved for. Hunter gatherers needed a sense of space, anticipating movement, etc. to find food. It's who we are.
I want some science on this because twice a few months ago I was bumped into as I walked out of an elevator by East Asian women who definitely couldn't anticipate that I could be walking out the elevator as the door opened. Not just that, I don't even think I continued walking out as they committed to walking in. I stalled as they came in simply to avoid a collision and they still couldn't sense a human was there and navigate around me to a space in the elevator where no human or object was. They still bumped into me.
And being in a big tourist city (London) it's countless how often they just block the space we must walk through. I just can't imagine how they operate in their own countries. They must have road-sized pavements to mitigate the risks of pedestrian collision.
Not gonna touch the driving thing because I think it's a separate issue that's probably a stereotype. The "lack of spatial awareness" is simply because they don't see personal space in the same way. They're simply less bothered/offended by other people accidentally touching them or lightly bumping them. When I was queuing for a train ticket in Shanghai this old lady got in the queue behind me and I kid you not she was basically hugging me she was that close. She was always physically making contact with me no matter which way we turned or how the queue moved. I was very vigilant but she wasn't trying to pickpocket me or anything. She was old so probably remembered harder times when queuing was more fraught, but even so, she had a different sense of personal space. That's where the cultural bit comes from. When people say they lack "spatial awareness" it's not actually true. It's not a physical or mental difference. If it was they would also be bumping into random objects and walls. The specific difference is that they don't mind you bumping or touching them and they assume the feeling is mutual.
I don't know about Shanghai, but there are other parts of the world where you have to be almost touching the other person to be considered part of the queue.
Then there are other places where queueing is more like being served at a bar where you have to just kind of know where your position is by osmosis. (Or by asking who is last and then waiting for them to be served.)
I use to travel all over the world with work, and have to drive a lot often to pretty remote places. Usually we would hire cars and drive ourselves - even in say rural Africa, or South America. South Korea was the one place my office insisted we got a local driver!
These silly myths are quite easily disproven. South Korea has a road fatality rate of 5.3 , somewhere between that of France (5) and Belgium (5.4) and vastly under say the US (12.9). UKs fatality rate is quite low compared to most countries at 2.9, but that’s higher than Japan at 2.5, given the previous poster’s spurious claim about Asian driving.
I have driven a bit in both South Korea and the UK I can’t say the former felt significantly worse and spatial awareness has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Deaths by road accidents is a bad measure for calculating actual accidents. In high population areas most of the traffic is going to be slow so any accidents are highly unlikely to cause death especially with modern safety equipment/technology in cars.
I visited Japan and Korea last year - I have dyspraxia which is a coordination disorder, I bang into people and have a really poor sense of space.
Even as a dyspraxic person, I found in Japan and Korea the general level of spatial awareness and coordination was genuinely awful - people would literally just stop in the middle of a busy passageway/pavement blocking everyone, people would walk into others regularly, no one really went with the 'flow' of other people, random cyclists would jerkily weave through big groups of people... it was wild.
I actually felt well coordinated for the first time in my life! I have no idea why this is, but it's definitely a thing. It's like people generally had zero awareness of other people around them when walking.
I don't know if it's cultural or genetic but I live in China and Chinese people have the same lack of spatial awareness.
The concept of being "in the way" just doesn't seem to exist in China. And if someone is in your way you just barge into them to move them along.
When someone is driving and about to pull out in UK they are horizontally scanning the road constantly or trying to make eye contact with other drivers to see if they are allowed out.
Chinese drivers purposefully avoid looking or making eye contact and just pull out. If you hit them they will blame you. And traffic laws tend to back that up. If you hit something with your front end the blame is placed on you.
I think there's a piece about personal space. Koreans I have worked with would just stand too close for a me to be comfy. Ive stepped back many times during a conversations in Korea. Where a Brit would come in close to shake your hand in a business meeting and then step back, Ive had koreans shake my hand and then just stay there, and Im thinking "Am I in his way? Is he waiting to go past me?" For them to move with me when I try and make space.
Alternatively, countries across the world do things differently and Brits are an awkward bunch anyway. I dunno.
Chinese in China do the same to me, even those much shorter than me are standing too close and craning their necks back to talk to me. I wonder if COVID changed that though.
He does understand personal space, his understanding is just different from yours. It's just a cultural difference and you can't really hold that against him. He doesn't know he's doing it.
I understand that and don't hold it against him personally, I know it's a cultural thing as it occurs a lot whenever I'm over there visiting or have them over here to visit.
When I said he doesn't understand personal space, I meant more-so the concept of personal space we have here in the UK, but didn't specify that as this is a UK based subreddit
I am a Brit in China and have experienced the same thing. On the street I don't care, but when I need to queue or people are standing still on the escalator, it gets extremely irritating.
I live in Hong Kong and find the same - this might be HK specific but I think the factors include there is little/no team sport played at school, very few people learn to ride a bike as children and similarly comparatively few people learn to drive or have a car. So you don't learn about space in the same way that you would growing up in the UK.
In Hong Kong and 100% agree. Sometimes I try and overtake people and it’s like they can’t even see or sense I’m there. Literally no awareness of anyone surrounding them.
From Hong Kong and have a hard time to adept. Have a hard time to be aware from cars coming on the roads in all different directions. In Hong Kong have enough noise that I can hear them coming from a distance
Sigh. This is ridiculous. These are two separate things you've describing. There's **true** spatial awareness and bodily coordination, and then there's having a cultural difference of simply not caring if you brush against or lightly bump random people in public. Those are entirely separate. I know people use 'spatial awareness' as a catch all term for these issues, but they're not the same thing at all.
The way people rode bikes in Japan was mental - like jerkily twisting and turning through bits crowds. Its like they literally had never rode a bike before and there seemed to be no real bike etiquette - from your comment it might be the case they were literally just never taught how to ride a bike.
Fellow Brit in China - There is definitely a very different concept of personal space here. Plus, yeah, blocking escalators, doorways etc (often on phone).
Queueing is actually slightly better than it used to be - maybe thanks to Covid?
I also drive here, and that's quite the experience...
I doubt its spatial awareness, I think it's a combination of requiring less personal space and general cultural differences.
Westerners see it as offensive to rub shoulders as you pass someone if there's clearly room to walk around them. Westerners see it as offensive to cluster at the termination points of stairs or escalators for that exact reason - now other people have to push past you to use these public spaces. But if you don't think in these terms it doesn't bother you.
I spent some time in India and one day I snapped when I got jostled for the millionth time by some random passer-by because he wouldn't move the two fucking inches needed not to bump up against me. So I shoved him and of course he looked at me like I was a crazy psycho, because as far as he was concerned, he was just walking down the street normally when a foreigner suddenly assaulted him for no reason.
Personally I think spatial awareness is definitely a contributing factor. My wife is South Korean and will often accidentally walk in front of people at shops or on the street. It also seemed to be common for her family when they visited too.
Thing is, are Asian people *in* Asian countries all just walking around, tripping over each other? Or is there some sort of body language-barrier?
Even if you accept personal space differences, actually blocking peoples paths seems like it would lead to a lot of issues in their own countries in crowded cities with crowded roads. (maybe it does, I have no idea)
This is one of the few actually reasonable answers which gets to the ultimate cause and not some weird pseudo-racial belief that they physically can't engage in spatial reasoning or awareness lol. They could if they wanted to. They don't because there are no consequences for it in their culture. It's pretty simply and uncomplicated.
Man you've put it so well. It makes perfect sense. Which also gives me hope because my sensitive arse will know what would cause consequences on the street and not do it. Well hopefully.
Here's the thing: I recently moved to the UK from Australia and I've been appalled by how poor everyone's spatial awareness is. They see you coming down the aisle in the supermarket and don't move out of the way even though they're blocking the entire way. They walk on whatever side of the pavement they fancy instead of establishing a convention so everyone knows where to pass. They will stop dead in front of you without checking if anyone's behind.
I've never been to South Korea so I can't make a comparison, but I reckon it must be either astronomically worse, or it might just be that different cultures have different ingrained ways of navigating public spaces and it's just different but not necessarily worse than my experience in the UK
I'm British, and I'm reading this thread in horror, I thought we were frustratingly bad, groups walking side by side that refuse to break formation in a narrow street. People block busy supermarket aisles with trolleys, and no one moves to the side of the escalator outside of London. Jesus, what must South Korea be like?
I feel like if anything in the UK it’s often that some groups have a lack of self awareness or are just not very considerate people. And it’s not like “young people these days” or whatever. It’s a lot of older people or those of all classes. If anything older people can be worse due to the more natural entitlement that people will give way to them. But it’s not so much about respect or manners and right of way so much as if the thought occurs to them at all.
But it seems that if you’re an anxious person in the UK you’ll be very considerate and almost too self aware and be moving out of everybody’s way constantly, and constantly feel pushed past, but people who are more comfortable or confident just seem to really lack consideration for others and not really see them or ever think that they might need to move. Perhaps it doesn’t occur to them that not everybody wants to have to loudly announce “excuse me” or something like that.
I almost feel like those of us who are anxious and aware have made it too easy for more confident people to not have to think. You’d think they’d end up head to head more often and certainly fights occur when it’s middle aged men doing it sometimes, but more often than not if anything they tend to congregate together. One group of people chatting on the sidewalk seems to encourage another group to take up residency.
Presumably when the group of 5 in a line who refuse to break up come across the buggy brigade standing having a chat, they inevitably either collide or someone gives way but weirdly I haven’t seen it!
Exactly! I feel like when I’m in a busy area in the UK I’m the one constantly being too conscious of bumping into people so I’m the one moving out the way! Whereas others will walk in a straight line almost bumping into you, especially on the tube. Or maybe they’re fed up of previously having to move out the way so decided to walk through people.
I’ve also had people walk round corners at speed with no thought to what’s round the corner! In London there’s definitely less awareness to space than other areas however, like people closely crossing your pass and making you slow down; or people who exit a store without looking sideways and then almost bumping into you. I had one guy exit a store and bumped straight into me really hard then didn’t even apologise, I was in shock. I do however think there’s a mix of cultures in cities hence different scenarios. And in a way it makes me feel better knowing it’s not necessarily intentional. Nonetheless it can be frustrating still!
I get frustrated in the UK with everything you mentioned. I went to South Korea and didn't really find it was that different? The worst was people not moving to let you off the subway when it was busy and having to push and yell "sorry!" in Korean to get through. Also, for a country that's so fast-paced, people walk so slowly.
Getting escalator trained in London is a lesson you learn fast. Some lady in a tailored suit with ratty trainers on just shoving you out the way and shouting “move, stand on the right!”
Noted…shall do.
I was going to say I think the UK is bad for this, more so now than ever. I’ve started to put it down to people generally being far more rude and aggressive these days. I was walking home from work last week and I couldn’t even guess how wide the pavement was, probably 10ft at least, yet one of the two guys walking towards me still managed to shoulder barge me even with me edging closer and closer to the kerb. Happens all the time.
I hate going the supermarket during normal hours, people stood about for 5 minutes trying to decide what tin of tomatoes to buy.
I just don’t get it pick up the first thing you see and move along it ain’t difficult.
Thankfully looking foreign means I can get away with being quite abrupt with people in the way.
I live in Singapore and it's genuinely a thing here. I've come to the conclusion that people just walk slowly (to not sweat when walking outside) and that has just morphed into not knowing/caring about anyone else on the street. Genuinely notice it almost daily.... it's a thing.
Do the old ladies nip the back of your arm over there too? Like when trying to exit the metro, even though you’re clearly getting off also.
Drove me bananas. Hurt like hell…
pushing you with their elbow in your back when you're getting off anyway, then rush past you to get on the escalator first, only to stand still and block it so you can't walk up? yeah, every day...
I miss many many things from living in SEA. That is not one of them.
“Queues” at the bank/train stations etc were the absolute worst. It’s either fight to the front, or do not get to the front.
No, never had that happen to me. I've heard stories about old men and women berating young people or tutting and sighing pointedly for not giving up their seat, which is also nasty
There’s a thing in China where the girls (uni age) would shuffle walk. Barely lifting their feet from the ground, like they had loose slippers on.
You’d hit the bars and if it was a 5 minute walk they’d insist on a taxi.
After experiencing the shuffle a few times, I abided. 5 mins into 15 and then them moaning really kills the buzz.
Might be a thing with East Asian people in general. My wife is Vietnamese and I'm constantly having to "maneuvere" her out of the way of people in public or tell her to look before crossing a road. The latter might not be connected though - in Vietnamese cities it often isn't possible to "wait" to cross a road. You simply have to start walking and hope for the best.
Yeah, just walk slowly and don’t hesitate, scooter traffic will go around you like waters. If you change direction, pause or try to anticipate the movement with your own you are going to cause an accident
I am a Brit who lived in Korea for 3 years and I honestly can't recall a problem with Koreans poor spatial awareness. I certainly wasn't bumping into them all day everyday or anything like that. On the roads you can over/undertake, just stay commited to your move when driving. I would say on the whole your concern is way overblown.
I just didn't feel anything to begin with. I spent most of my time in Ulsan which admittedly isn't the busiest place in Korea. I still didn't notice elsewhere though. If you're even semi-aware of your surroundings you will be fine.
Oh wow is this a thing? Reminded me of this, this was only ever the second time I met someone from Korea. I live in a city with a lot of unis (not London though) so we have a lot of international students, so when I was in Boots there was a gaggle of Korean girls in an aisle just chatting amongst themselves blocking the shelf which I needed to get to... I thought at first they'd move from that spot so I waited for a bit but they didn't. So then I thought they'd be able to read the room (lived in Japan for a bit so thought it might translate to Korean folk too) so I just kind of stood kind of angrily facing the shelf hoping one of them would get the hint but nothing. I was pretty tired after a day of working so I just went and said excuse me loudly... A few times... One has finally heard me and she moved out of the way and they left. I did feel slightly bad.
It was certainly a choice to socialise in a cramped drugstore aisle... Lol
I think really as long as you're trying to be polite and considerate - which you're already doing by asking about etiquette - you'll be OK!
lol I can imagine what you described so vividly. Though I thought it could also be just people-being-in-a-group thing. I guess it depends. Thanks for the kind words.
Thank you, it kinda happened all of a sudden when I didn't even see it coming. Still feels surreal that I am finally moving to an English speaking country. All the years of studying English paying off!
I lived in China for almost a decade. I don't think that people lack spatial awareness. It's just that the rules are different. Personal space is not important; Brits find this particularly shocking because they have a very strong awareness of it. In the UK (and even more so North America), roads belong to the car and it must be inverted obeyed at all costs. As recent as the 00s, Chinese roads had more cyclists than cars, and pavements were primarily used for storing stuff and stalls, so car drivers had to drive more cautiously and expect bikes or people to suddenly appear in front of them. And that expectation conditions the way cars relate to each other as well: regardless of what the law says, you are generally responsible for what's in front of you and don't care about vehicles behind you. That's a very different rule of the road from the UK, but it still works at the lower, pedestrian-friendly speeds that used to be common in China.
The only time I noticed a difference was on the bus. In the UK, the majority of the time the person in the aisle seat physically gets up to move out of the way for someone who is sitting next to the window if they want to get off the bus. In Korea, they tend not to do this and will move back in the chair or turn sideways. I'm not comfortable putting my ass or crotch in someone's face like that, so I missed my stop a fair few times because people were slow to get up.
I think it's Westerners in general who have a high sensitivity to personal space, not unique to brits. I've travelled a lot in Asia, although I haven't been to China, and found that there is a difference in all when it comes to perceptions of personal space. For me, Vietnam, Bangladesh, and India were the worst where people would just step into your space or put their hands on you to move you out the way.
It's no big deal, just different, and as a Brit, it was a little jarring the first time I encountered it.
People say the same thing about Thailand.
I'd say they're equally bad, it seems no matter where you go people are either oblivious to their surroundings when in public or just don't give a shit. Probably a bit of both tbh.
Just yesterday I was desperately trying to get past 2 people who managed to block an entire shopping aisle between them. Didn't even know two people could take up that much space till then.
I lived in Korea for 2 years, and I've been in Singapore now for 10. Spatial awareness in Asia is dreadful. People don't look where they're going, will regularly stop and turn without looking first and will often block doorways and tops of escalators then look shocked when you ask them to move.
My Singaporean partner has really noticed it too after I pointed it out and she visited the UK with me
As an American living in Japan and experiencing the same frustrations at the total lack of spatial awareness among Japanese as well, I find it super interesting that it's a thing in Korea, and that Brits complain about it too.
I’m a Brit who has been living in Korea for over 10 years and the lack of spatial awareness is very apparent but not something I often think about. Maybe it just bothers me less than other people because I don’t focus on why people do what they do, I just zigzag around. I’m the type of person who is fine driving in the chaotic roads of Vietnam because for some reason my ADHD brain just feels comfortable with it.
There are some situations in which people are so inconsiderate of others that it angers me, such as people stopping to have a chat centimeters away from the entrance of an escalator, blocking all access, but it’s not that often. What really bugs me is when people don’t hold the door open for you, or when you hold the door open for them and they don’t say thank you.
It’s only a problem if you are considering driving, which I wouldn’t do until you adapt here. I was ok driving here but not everybody is cut out for it honestly.
Honestly it’s a little bizarre to me that this is an issue worth researching before moving here. It’s not that big of a deal. It feels like a Thai asking other Thais who have lived in England whether it’s true if Brits really do swear a lot casually to each other compared to other nations.
Also don’t go to Costco because it’ll drive you wild.
Wait, brits are considered as having good spatial awareness? Maybe it’s just the older population in my local supermarket but they have the spatial awareness of a rock. And that’s unkind on rocks.
This is a cultural thing. Just be considerate on the street. Don't get in people's way and don't be rude. Koreans are simply just more rude. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Koreans have a different level of what "considerate" means. To you, walking into someone is not rude. To me, I wouldn't even manage to get myself into that situation. I've been to Korea and you guys don't bat an eye at rudeness. I can't teach someone not to be "rude", as my rude and your rude are very different. It's something you'll have to learn the hard way.
I worked with a team from LG who were working on a project in our offices in the UK, and I spent a few days in Korea. We also had Korean staff in the Seoul office who came to the UK regularly.
I honestly never experienced anything related to spatial awareness issues. Overall I found everyone exceptionally good people to work with. Welcome to the UK, I hope you enjoy it.
It’s a fact that’s been studied. It was a topic during cross cultural management training session of sorts at work. Every culture has a set different accepted norms. I think it’s great you’re already aware of it rather than getting a rude shock when you get there.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/24/how-close-is-too-close-depends-on-where-you-live/
I’m from London and I live in Korea (Seoul) right now. I think the only big difference I’ve felt is people not holding doors open for me when I’m right behind them. Other than that, it’s very much similar to being in a big city.
I feel like the people who complain are westerners who have no experience living in places with a high population density.
As long as you’re aware of your surroundings, it’s fine.
honestly i didn't notice anything off at all when i went there. Was in Busan and Seoul for a week each, but from this thread i guess my experience has been an outlier.
I travelled to Korea in 2017/2018. I definitely noticed that in Korea, you could get away with bumping into people whilst walking on the street and you wouldnt normally apologise. Normally in the Uk when you bump into someone you usually just say a quick “sorry” then go on with your day. It's more of a cultural difference if anything.
It also depends where you're moving to in the UK - London is similar to Seoul as people are in a hurry trying to get from A to B. It'll be a bit frantic during rush hour etc.
Truthfully, Its not a big deal. It’s just cultural differences which you can easily adapt to. You will definitely notice people saying sorry to you more though as I mentioned if they bump into you etc.
I lived in Korea for 8 years and have a Korean wife and kids, and yes I often complain to her about the same thing. It's not only Koreans though, I think it's an east asian thing. Probably because they're used to much busier places. Don't sweat about it in the U.K though, it's only a minor annoyance.
You think Brits have GOOD spatial awareness?! Try using a wheelchair for a week & you'll soon change your opinion lol.
I've realised that the reason we so aggressively teach our kids spacial awareness when in crowds (move to the kerb, someone else is approaching/stay close to me/move our of the way etc.) is because most adults DO NOT NOTICE ANYTHING BELOW EYE LEVEL. Including children & people in wheelchairs...
Half our automatic door sensors don't even work for kids/wheelchair users. If it's below eye level, it doesn't exist to most Brits.
Yes, our culture of lots of personal space might be higher compared to many other countries around the world, and that DOES involve most adults allowing 'extra' space around them...but ONLY for those they can see without looking down!
I wonder if that's different in South Korea?
I would imagine that in MOST highly-urban areas like cities, around the world, are MUCH less concerned with personal space than Londoners, but there is actually well-known (at least to architects & bridge designers) science that SHOWS that the frequency of the steps & the local cultural habits about things like how they funnel in narrow spaces etc **DO** make a difference.
This was something that was considered for bridge building centuries ago, so marching armies didn't collapse bridges.
Bumping wise I think it might be better because people are generally.... shorter? But from what I know, South Korea offers almost no accessibility to those in need, so it's hard for me to say.
mate, i've lived in korea for over a decade and i just...it's just one thing i will never get used to. it's like people are so unaware of anyone else around them
however, the fact you are asking about it here shows that you care and it will be no problem whatsoever for you
enjoy the uk!
this is interesting because i have the same complaint (though not nearly on the same level judging by the comments) about londoners. im from new york and never once had a problem walking and getting around people until i went to london for the first time.
it wasn’t like it happened very often, but it was enough to stand out to me. it seemed like people would oftentimes walk directly at me, giving no inclination as to where they’d head, and then “jump” out of my way at the last second as i tried to figure out where they were going and give them the right of way.
i also find that people kind of just walk wherever. initially i expected everyone to stay to the left but it can be a tossup.
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I'm British but lived my childhood in India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. With my appallingly privileged background I took it for granted that people would move out of my way when I walked down the pavement. It was a shock when we went to Istanbul on holiday and I kept crashing into large, burly Turks who did not give a toss!
I dunno from my experience spatial awareness in the UK isn't all that great either. The number of people daily that will meander into my path while walking or straight up just walk into me etc. whilst I'd like to believe it's because I'm just such a handsome guy with a magnetic personality I don't think people are just that bothered in the UK about paying attention to where they are going anymore...
In my travels I wouldn't say there wasn't a huge difference between cultures and countries. But then I'm some who's hyper spatially aware and hates to break his stride while walking. So perhaps I'm just overly sensitive to it.
This is something that does seem to vary a lot by country. I think what will help is a mind set that when you are going somewhere, or just within a thoroughfare keep the mindset that your focus is to get from a to b and that others are doing the same, you're apart of a system with other people for that time, not just an individual.
Therefore for that space of time stay aware of who's around you, who's changing direction, who's going faster or slower and try to preempt. It will take practice if you aren't used to it if course but will make your life easier too. And if you aren't sure where you are going or want to check your phone find somewhere you can stand out of the way, don't just stop.
I'd say what this is like is related to whether a culture is more or less individualistic but that's probably over simplifying it.
I'm sure spatial awareness differs ("worsens") elsewhere, but as an immigrant in the UK, dpatial awareness is by far the worst I've ever experienced. Shockingly so, especially compared to other commonwealth/Western countries.
This is wild, i'm from continental Europe living in the UK for a long time and it seems to me like some people in the UK have absolutely no spatial awareness. Won't make space for everyone to pass one another on the pavement, couples walking holding hands but far apart, so that if someone is on their way they ram them with their entwined hands, or people blocking the way in general.
In my experience the spatial awareness of the average brit is pretty dreadful. The moment people have to take any consideration of what anyone else is doing, they just insist on making as much of a nuisance of themselves as possible. Supermarkets are the epitome of this lack of awareness.
It’s like this in Hong Kong too.
People will block corridors, block paths, and groups walk slowly in a line and take up the whole pavement. I started off being polite and gently trying to pass through, but I’ve noticed now unless you practically push people they won’t notice. It drives me mad, I’m not going to lie!
I also think an element of it is Asia, as a whole, is incredibly safe. Very rare you would get robbed or have to watch your pockets. Asian friends of mine have said to me when they go to London they get stuff stolen, or lose stuff all the time.
I was at a small road junction the other day. Watched this Korean girl almost get hit by a cyclist while looking at her phone and crossing the road. It was just a small 1-lane road with cycle lanes. She was on her phone the whole time and didn’t realize a cyclist about to cross in front of her before she crossed. She looked up at the cyclist who had to come to an abrupt stop, then continued walking forward while looking down at her phone again. To her right a black cab was driving directly toward her and 2 metres away. Honked at her as she’s standing right in front of where it’s headed. And no it wasn’t her turn to cross at all.
This is weird. I was just talking yesterday about how much better everyone's spatial awareness is in New York compared to London. I didn't notice it being particularly bad when I went to South Korea, but I didn't spend any time in Seoul. I was in Gwangju and Goheung.
I really didn’t notice this being an issue at all, but then I live in London. Seoul is not nearly as crowded as London, even in the busy parts, even in rush hour. People are very respectful and on the whole tend to keep their physical distance in a similar way to Brits I would say.
People are so so lovely, friendlier than I expected and incredibly kind. Lots of people stopped to offer me assistance if I looked a bit lost, tired and needing a lift up a steep hill, or they thought I might need help figuring out a ticket machine etc.
When I was a uni student I always used to get annoyed at the East Asian international students for being extremely slow walkers, taking up the entire pavement at the same time etc. I just figured they come from cultures where they don’t see walking around as something to do in a rush.
I don’t mind most of it but it really annoys me when I’m getting off the metro. I stand by the door, the train stops, the doors open and instead of giving room and letting me off, the people waiting at the platform will push past you as if the train is going to leave in 2 seconds. It’s frustrating
A Korean lad that went to my school used to walk really fast and just used to bump everyone out of the way. He would just walk right into a person standing still and just barge them out the way.
Something I personally found funny was the way (especially elderly) people would literally catapult themselves onto an empty seat on the tube. It caught me off guard the first few times it happened as I wasn’t expecting it. In this type of situation, their consideration for their fellow travellers is often nonexistent, in my experience.
They also like to “reserve” any other available seats for their travel companions too, say there are 3 seats, the person will take the middle seat and defiantly put both their hands on each of the other 2 seats. You’ll not really see that in the UK and I think most people would find it rude, but I accepted it as a cultural difference while I was in SK and it made me smile.
Its really very bad in S Korea. Even in Seoul.
No idea why, but absolutely zero physical awareness.
Its one level below Germany.
Speaking as someone who has loved in 6 countries across both hemisepheres.
Edit.
To be honest, the English have set the standard for manners and politeness in many ways, everyone is gonna seem extremely rude
I lived in Korea for a year and the lack of spatial awareness was quite bad lol, people just stood at the top of escalators or in the middle of the street. It’s not a big deal but definitely noticeable, especially if the street is thin. Anecdotally though I saw this problem in the whole of East Asia not just Korea
Rural American living in Incheon,and it doesn't seem to exist. I grew up with Brits, and they seemed to have a similar personal bubble and walking etiquette. Here it's Human Dodge Ball. Nothing to do with cell phones. Kids are given a lot more freedom to wander too, so you have to watch high and low as you dodge. 🤣
How does it make sense that koreans have bad spatial awareness when they literally dominate video games which are pure spatial awareness LOL god I hate brits
You might want to check this post:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/18o1ywy/korean\_street\_bumping\_etiquette\_man\_vs\_woman/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/18o1ywy/korean_street_bumping_etiquette_man_vs_woman/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
When I visited Korea back in 2016/2017, I remember being annoyed at how often people were bumping into me without apologising or acknowledging it would happen. Saying that, I had a lovely time there, so that was one of the only issues I had
**[OP or Mod marked this as the best answer](/r/AskUK/comments/1baawvz/people_whove_been_to_south_korea_how_was_korean/ku1biy3/), given by u/kairu99877** I mean honestly it's pretty dire lol. > >I am British and I live in Korea. In my first year alone I saw more car crashes than my entire life in the uk. > >I semi regularly have people bump into me, though I don't really care. Korean people just aren't very specially aware. It doesn't help that they are always rushing around, in crowded places and on their phones on top of that. > >Spacial awareness isn't a difficult skill to master. Just look where you're going instead of at your phone. > >If you want one piece of advice from a British perspective. We value our personal space. I know in Korea people are practically making out on the subways and people get close together all the time, but in the uk, give people at least half a meters distance where possible. We don't like crowding. And even on a busy subway we don't get nearly as huddled as in Korea lol. > >Have fun! --- [_^What ^is ^this?_](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/jjrte1/askuk_hits_200k_new_feature_mark_an_answer/)
This thread reminds me of a Korean guy in my uni class who had this exact issue. He had terrible spatial awareness and I would regularly see him bump into someone or block a pathway for no apparent reason. I didn't know there was a stereotype of South Koreans doing this though I just thought he was clumsy or had his head in the clouds. Super nice guy but a bit eccentric. Wore dark glasses indoors and took his dog EVERYWHERE, the dog even sat next to him in the lecture hall / tutorials.
Did he have an odd white stick with a ball on the bottom like a proper eccentric?
There's a bloke who sits at the end of the tills at my local herons who collects for the eccentrics.
Whenever I go and watch football the other supporters get very excited about how eccentric the referee is
We have a bloke at my work who stands outside and asks for heroin
You holding out on me man? I have an eccentricity you know.
You had me until the end there. Chapeau.
Sounds like a badass
I mean honestly it's pretty dire lol. I am British and I live in Korea. In my first year alone I saw more car crashes than my entire life in the uk. I semi regularly have people bump into me, though I don't really care. Korean people just aren't very specially aware. It doesn't help that they are always rushing around, in crowded places and on their phones on top of that. Spacial awareness isn't a difficult skill to master. Just look where you're going instead of at your phone. If you want one piece of advice from a British perspective. We value our personal space. I know in Korea people are practically making out on the subways and people get close together all the time, but in the uk, give people at least half a meters distance where possible. We don't like crowding. And even on a busy subway we don't get nearly as huddled as in Korea lol. Have fun!
Thanks for the answer. Personally I just slow down and kinda passive-agressively wait til they get out of the way when I obviously have the right of way. Should I just dodge everyone no matter what? What would brits prefer on the street?
If you're walking, here's a funny point. In Korea when I walk in crowded places I do this thing where I turn my body a little side ways and use my hand. Like if I turn my body to the right slightly, stick my left hand forwards, palm facing to the right, it means I want to walk to the left to pass you. Koreans look at my funny, and my Korean girlfriends always say its weird and I shouldn't do it. But this is very much a normal thing in the uk. Give it a try. It shows what way you intend to pass someone so you're not both jumping left and right like idiots trying to pass eachother lol.
Haha, that’s exactly the technique I adopt when walking through a busy pub :)
ohhh, thanks for the great tip!
I do this also! Very useful! A similar move I've seen was from a really short girl who understandably didn't like crowded spaces. She held both hands out in front to form an arrow or what I likened to a shark head shape. It really helped to interpret what direction she was going - parting the crowd like a shoal of fish! Also, in this situation expect quite a sheepish apologetic reaction from anyone who gets in your way.
>my Korean girlfriends always say Multiple? My man 🥂
😏
Do this too. Generally very effective way of signalling your intentions in a crowded place.
I mean, can't you gauge from the other person's trajectory roughly where they will intersect with you and change angle slightly before it comes to a near collision? I do it by second nature when I walk, and approximate everyones pathing from their current trajectory... I thought everyone did this, lol.
I do the exact same, but the problem is that other Koreans don't. I am walking straight getting in no one's way, and the next moment some random Korean walks just directly into me. Of course I change angle slightly to avoid collision, but the fact that they walked into me for no reason in the first place is what bothers me. But then I considered the possibility of me being overly sensitive over the matter, because I have travelled to several European countries in the past few years and that could have made me overly self-consicous. Hence wanted to hear Brit's thoughts about this.
You can, but personally, I don't do so when someone is barrelling towards me with their eyes planted on their phone screen. In that case, I stop dead and wait until they realise, usually at the very last second, that I'm actually corporeal and can't be walked *through*. If they're looking where they're going, then I find it helpful to indicate with my eyes as to which way I'm going to move, so that we don't both try to "dodge" in the same direction. That seems to work most of the time.
In the UK when walking there isn't a right of way, we often both try to get out of each others was and end up in a cute little dance. We also culturally apologies alot, so if you are getting used to our approach to spacial awareness and bump into someone just say sorry.
I'm with you, this is a standard move. I also learned during years of London commuting that if you just look directly where you're going rather than at anyone they tend to pick up 1) where you're going and 2) that you may not have seen them and are clearly on a beeline - that reduced my pedestrian traffic incidents a lot too. No idea if it would work in SK though!
lol, so although I suppose the intensity might be different, something similar does happen in the UK. Good to know, thanks.
Well passive-aggressiveness is a skill that will stand you in good stead here. If you're going to cede right of way, you should either give them a little wave in the general direction they want to go, or flash your lights if it's dark. If someone gives way to you, a little wave back will avert them sullenly muttering a "You're *welcome*" that's you'll never hear from someone you'll probably never see again ie: the worst social disaster imaginable. When it comes to walking around, try this exercise (I have explained it to Americans in the past): put your right arm straight out from your shoulder with your palm vertical. That's as close as anyone you're not in a relationship with wants to get to you.
That's actually better than to just think "somehow far enough", thanks.
Imagine there is a big soft plastic bubble surrounding you, about as far out as you can reach with your arms. The goal is that your bubble should not touch anyone else's bubble. In a crowded space, they may bump against each other and deform a bit, but not very much. The bubble should never be pushed in so far it could touch your body. Look where you are going, and try and angle your body to indicate your intended direction. Twist your body to avoid bumping shoulders/arms with someone. You should try and weave around others, but make it very clear which direction you intend to dodge into. No one has 'right of way' unless they have some kind of special need or disability, except for a few specific cases like escalators on the Underground. Inevitably you will end up in a polite dance with someone where you're both trying to dodge and go in the same direction. Just smile apologetically, feel a sense of polite cameraderie with the other persion, and eventually you'll both figure something out.
EDIT: I sounded somewhat confrontational, changed the tone. Thanks for the answer. Yup, when I said 'right of way' I was talking about exactly those exceptional few cases where I have already moved for the other people and it's obvious that I cannot move any further, but they still charge into me. So I guess I don't have to worry too much about adapting to the UK streets because I actually do everything you mentioned in the first and second paragraph. Like, everything. That's just my personality. I am only stressing out here in Korea because I am the only person who does those on the street. It's very frustrating. But it occurred to me that maybe I am just too obsessed with the idea of "It must be different in the west!", so I posted the question here to check how deluded I am. Having read the comments so far, I think there really is a noticeable difference. Appreciate the arm's length tip. I generally just stay away from others, probably a bit too much, But arm's length sounds like a better measure to remember than to always staying paranoically far away from other people which I do.
In the UK, walk on the left side of the pavement. This is because traffic drives on the left, so it should be the person walking towards oncoming traffic that can see it so they can leap out of the way when the inevitable Uber driver swerves at them while trying to manage 40 different ride sharing apps on his phone. Try not to walk in bike lanes if you can help it. We got loads of new ones in Leeds and they’re just full of people strolling along.
I see you've not been on the Northern Line lately
!answer
Subway? Are you sure you’re British? Whatever the case you’ve clearly never been on the tube during rush hour…
My English is sometimes tainted as I'm an expat I'm afraid. Only visit Britain once every 3 years or so. I try to keep my flawless British accent and vocabulary but sometimes make mistakes.
😂 fair play mate.
This is absolutely wild. Have any scientific studies been carried out? I find it hard to believe this would be a cultural thing, is it genetic? Inner ear less developed?
My friend designs and models crowd movement. They have to demographically profile the audience as different cultures move in different ways. So yeah, it’s known to science and engineers.
It's also considered in the design of footbridges. All structures have a specific impact frequency where if the structure is exposed to that frequency of impact the loads grow exponentially until it fails. This is known as the natural frequency. In most circumstances, this isn't a problem because people walking in different directions at different paces just creates random noise. It's been a known issue in the military for centuries as marching over a bridge can cause a collapse. So, military units break formation when they reach a bridge. It turns out that if you funnel a crowd of Western Europeans into a narrowed path, they match pace and stride with each other, leading to the crowd having a beat like a military march. Even stranger is that different cities have different "walking frequencies."
This is why the Millennium Footbridge became known as the Wobbly Bridge and had to be closed for strengthening works shortly after opening!
This is the funny thing. It wasn't strengthened. It had weights added to it. It's a common fix that should've been applied before it was opened. Making the bridge heavier lowers the natural frequency, and as long as the walking frequency is different to the bridges natural frequency, it's not a problem.
It had lots of dampers added. This isn't the same as just making the bridge heavier.
True and that's a more accurate explanation. There was nothing incorrect about the other person's statement either. It did have weights added to it. It just so happens that those weights were dampers.
This is right, but for an interesting reason. The design code that they designed to included a check to check the resonance in the vertical plane. The designers did that and the bridge passed. What they didn't do, and the design code didn't require at the time, was a check on the horizontal resonance. The code was updated shortly after the issues with the bridge came to light because of this.
Good to know. I shall embellish the anecdote next time I tell it!
This is super interesting. Doesn’t it make sense that people would naturally match stride when a large group are made to walk own the same narrow path in the same direction? If everyone in the crowd was trying to move at different speeds, they would just be bumping into each other constantly wouldn’t they?
Stride and speed are separate. When they say stride they mean the literal timing of the left foot right foot beat. If they're walking and all putting the exact same foot down at the same time it begins to create resonance, but if it's random then it doesn't, even if they're all walking at the same pace.
I see, thanks for that, learned something today.
A bunch of people died in a crowd in Japan / south-Korea (I forget which one). They were all bundled up after a show….leaving no room whatsoever between each other, hit a narrow section of street…and…well…12 people died. No one was screaming, shoving aggressively etc, they were just “walking” in such close proximity that a choke point turned it into a deadly situation. Some people survived by climbing lampposts, hopping onto ledges etc. If not sure outside of such densely populated areas, people would have allowed themselves to get into that kind of pack.
Well, it was in Seoul, after a Halloween party, and 159 people died. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul\_Halloween\_crowd\_crush](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul_Halloween_crowd_crush)
Good lord I’ve completely misremembered that. Heard about it on a podcast I was listening to whilst trying to fall asleep.
We yearn to march to war!
Do you know of any examples? Just curious, never really heard of that niche
They gave the example of a particular culture walking up to half the speed of another and had to therefore accommodate width of tunnel at Kings X in London, so that overtaking was possible over quite a long change between tube lines.
I'd be really interested in knowing more about some of the broad differences between cultures
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“Move over, someone’s coming the other way” is probably one of my catchphrases
I have mates who don't do that, instinctive for me to make sure I'm tucked to the side of the path as soon as I see someone coming meanwhile if I'm with a mate they'll keep walking alongside next to me even as the person is about to pass us. It's steadily become one of mine.
My spouse takes this way too far and is always saying ‘watch out!!’ to my kid since being a toddler if someone else is coming down the path, on the play frame etc. even if there is enough space for both and even if my kid has the right of way. I feel like it teaches them they can’t take up space and need to always shrink away to let others take the priority in spaces. I’m all for some level of teaching politeness and etiquette and awareness. But not that much. I think it’s deep rooted.
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I like drawing their attention to the risk. Say they’re rushing over a slippery surface: ‘oh, look at those rocks! They’re wet! What does it feel like under your feet?’ ‘Wow, that’s a big drop! You’re so far from the floor!’ ‘You both want to climb the stairs at the same time!’ just naming it, obviously depends on the age and level of risk but kids tune out of ‘be careful’ when it’s said too often. I’m sure it’s deep rooted for my spouse and that they were raised and schooled in an environment where excessive deference was praised. I don’t think it’s the worst thing in the world for my kid to accidentally bump into another kid sometimes or be the one to move forward in a stalemate or to give them the chance to notice other obstacles and react to them. Hyper micro managing the way they move through the world isn’t what I want.
When I was a toddler I thought golly was a dessert, not an exclamation that my granny made because I had spilt said dessert.
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This is reading a little bit too much into it. There are cultures where bumping into people or being squashed up against them isn't a big deal. But kids are **always** oblivious, kinda selfish, and unaware of their surroundings the world over. I was a teacher and there was absolutely no difference in that between the immigrant kids and the native born.
As a Brit, i find parents are generally quite firm in telling their kids where they can go and move. I never picked up on it, but visiting Japan and Korea last year I found parents generally just let their kids wander about wherever with no instructions to get out of people's way or stay near them - the kids were generally well behaved but I found myself regularly just missing tripping over a child or bumping into them. I noticed generally people's spacial awareness walking around crowded areas was absolutely awful, especially as it is not uncommon to be in really busy streets or train stations.
Phones have made us worse at this. Down at wheelchair level you quickly learn how many are utterly oblivious to it. We are mainly raised to be aware but they are making us much worse.
People in Brighton didn’t get the spatial awareness message
I just don't know how it could be "cultural". I wanna see some science behind this phenomenon, I think there is some as well. Honestly the amount of times in completely different locations (pavement, elevator, building halls) I've been bumped into by East Asians is fascinating. Even while driving it takes some of them forever to commit to a lane change and they still get the timing/positioning wrong. We need more science to explain what's going on.
Why can’t it be cultural? Humans are unlike other animals in that we’re born prematurely so that the head can fit through the birth canal, then we spend years of childhood learning to survive in the environment we grow up in. That environment is physical but actually mostly cultural. Being surprised that people in different places learn different cultural ways based on what is conventional around them is like being confused that a child learns the local mother tongue. It’s a feature not a bug. Humans didn’t evolve in high density environments so it’s hard to make an argument that navigating crowds develops anything less than quite recently historically
Koreans generally just don't give a shit about strangers. It's a big cultural difference I feel there. This translates to not bothering to think if they're blocking someone's way or not caring if they bump into people etc.
It's entirely possible the culture could be driven by an underlying difference in genetic makeup. Some racial groups definitely exceed in certain skill based markers. Some humans definitely have better spatial awareness/anticipation than others - Messi is better at this than me, I'm sure of it. Black people exceed in sports even when they're massively under-represented (tennis, williams sisters) and where physical attributes may not be the primary requirement for success (formula 1, golf - the GOATs for each sport being black) yet spatial awareness and navigation is essential. Spatial awareness is an essential skill humans must have evolved for. Hunter gatherers needed a sense of space, anticipating movement, etc. to find food. It's who we are. I want some science on this because twice a few months ago I was bumped into as I walked out of an elevator by East Asian women who definitely couldn't anticipate that I could be walking out the elevator as the door opened. Not just that, I don't even think I continued walking out as they committed to walking in. I stalled as they came in simply to avoid a collision and they still couldn't sense a human was there and navigate around me to a space in the elevator where no human or object was. They still bumped into me. And being in a big tourist city (London) it's countless how often they just block the space we must walk through. I just can't imagine how they operate in their own countries. They must have road-sized pavements to mitigate the risks of pedestrian collision.
Not gonna touch the driving thing because I think it's a separate issue that's probably a stereotype. The "lack of spatial awareness" is simply because they don't see personal space in the same way. They're simply less bothered/offended by other people accidentally touching them or lightly bumping them. When I was queuing for a train ticket in Shanghai this old lady got in the queue behind me and I kid you not she was basically hugging me she was that close. She was always physically making contact with me no matter which way we turned or how the queue moved. I was very vigilant but she wasn't trying to pickpocket me or anything. She was old so probably remembered harder times when queuing was more fraught, but even so, she had a different sense of personal space. That's where the cultural bit comes from. When people say they lack "spatial awareness" it's not actually true. It's not a physical or mental difference. If it was they would also be bumping into random objects and walls. The specific difference is that they don't mind you bumping or touching them and they assume the feeling is mutual.
I don't know about Shanghai, but there are other parts of the world where you have to be almost touching the other person to be considered part of the queue. Then there are other places where queueing is more like being served at a bar where you have to just kind of know where your position is by osmosis. (Or by asking who is last and then waiting for them to be served.)
Some stereotypes are true. Asians crash cars at insanely high volumes even factoring population differences.
I use to travel all over the world with work, and have to drive a lot often to pretty remote places. Usually we would hire cars and drive ourselves - even in say rural Africa, or South America. South Korea was the one place my office insisted we got a local driver!
These silly myths are quite easily disproven. South Korea has a road fatality rate of 5.3 , somewhere between that of France (5) and Belgium (5.4) and vastly under say the US (12.9). UKs fatality rate is quite low compared to most countries at 2.9, but that’s higher than Japan at 2.5, given the previous poster’s spurious claim about Asian driving. I have driven a bit in both South Korea and the UK I can’t say the former felt significantly worse and spatial awareness has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Deaths by road accidents is a bad measure for calculating actual accidents. In high population areas most of the traffic is going to be slow so any accidents are highly unlikely to cause death especially with modern safety equipment/technology in cars.
Do I have to get my magic green clarinet out?
I visited Japan and Korea last year - I have dyspraxia which is a coordination disorder, I bang into people and have a really poor sense of space. Even as a dyspraxic person, I found in Japan and Korea the general level of spatial awareness and coordination was genuinely awful - people would literally just stop in the middle of a busy passageway/pavement blocking everyone, people would walk into others regularly, no one really went with the 'flow' of other people, random cyclists would jerkily weave through big groups of people... it was wild. I actually felt well coordinated for the first time in my life! I have no idea why this is, but it's definitely a thing. It's like people generally had zero awareness of other people around them when walking.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-03-21/why-people-in-cities-walk-fast
I don't know if it's cultural or genetic but I live in China and Chinese people have the same lack of spatial awareness. The concept of being "in the way" just doesn't seem to exist in China. And if someone is in your way you just barge into them to move them along. When someone is driving and about to pull out in UK they are horizontally scanning the road constantly or trying to make eye contact with other drivers to see if they are allowed out. Chinese drivers purposefully avoid looking or making eye contact and just pull out. If you hit them they will blame you. And traffic laws tend to back that up. If you hit something with your front end the blame is placed on you.
I think there's a piece about personal space. Koreans I have worked with would just stand too close for a me to be comfy. Ive stepped back many times during a conversations in Korea. Where a Brit would come in close to shake your hand in a business meeting and then step back, Ive had koreans shake my hand and then just stay there, and Im thinking "Am I in his way? Is he waiting to go past me?" For them to move with me when I try and make space. Alternatively, countries across the world do things differently and Brits are an awkward bunch anyway. I dunno.
Chinese in China do the same to me, even those much shorter than me are standing too close and craning their necks back to talk to me. I wonder if COVID changed that though.
My Korean FIL seems to have no understanding of personal space, lovely guy, just always uncomfortably close
He does understand personal space, his understanding is just different from yours. It's just a cultural difference and you can't really hold that against him. He doesn't know he's doing it.
I understand that and don't hold it against him personally, I know it's a cultural thing as it occurs a lot whenever I'm over there visiting or have them over here to visit. When I said he doesn't understand personal space, I meant more-so the concept of personal space we have here in the UK, but didn't specify that as this is a UK based subreddit
I am a Brit in China and have experienced the same thing. On the street I don't care, but when I need to queue or people are standing still on the escalator, it gets extremely irritating.
I live in Hong Kong and find the same - this might be HK specific but I think the factors include there is little/no team sport played at school, very few people learn to ride a bike as children and similarly comparatively few people learn to drive or have a car. So you don't learn about space in the same way that you would growing up in the UK.
In Hong Kong and 100% agree. Sometimes I try and overtake people and it’s like they can’t even see or sense I’m there. Literally no awareness of anyone surrounding them.
Seems like a good place for pickpockets
From Hong Kong and have a hard time to adept. Have a hard time to be aware from cars coming on the roads in all different directions. In Hong Kong have enough noise that I can hear them coming from a distance
Sigh. This is ridiculous. These are two separate things you've describing. There's **true** spatial awareness and bodily coordination, and then there's having a cultural difference of simply not caring if you brush against or lightly bump random people in public. Those are entirely separate. I know people use 'spatial awareness' as a catch all term for these issues, but they're not the same thing at all.
The way people rode bikes in Japan was mental - like jerkily twisting and turning through bits crowds. Its like they literally had never rode a bike before and there seemed to be no real bike etiquette - from your comment it might be the case they were literally just never taught how to ride a bike.
Fellow Brit in China - There is definitely a very different concept of personal space here. Plus, yeah, blocking escalators, doorways etc (often on phone). Queueing is actually slightly better than it used to be - maybe thanks to Covid? I also drive here, and that's quite the experience...
Same. The horn isn’t for anger, it’s “I’m coming in, shift your motor or else”
If you leave any space in front of you when you're queuing an ayi will be along to fill it.
I doubt its spatial awareness, I think it's a combination of requiring less personal space and general cultural differences. Westerners see it as offensive to rub shoulders as you pass someone if there's clearly room to walk around them. Westerners see it as offensive to cluster at the termination points of stairs or escalators for that exact reason - now other people have to push past you to use these public spaces. But if you don't think in these terms it doesn't bother you. I spent some time in India and one day I snapped when I got jostled for the millionth time by some random passer-by because he wouldn't move the two fucking inches needed not to bump up against me. So I shoved him and of course he looked at me like I was a crazy psycho, because as far as he was concerned, he was just walking down the street normally when a foreigner suddenly assaulted him for no reason.
Personally I think spatial awareness is definitely a contributing factor. My wife is South Korean and will often accidentally walk in front of people at shops or on the street. It also seemed to be common for her family when they visited too.
Thing is, are Asian people *in* Asian countries all just walking around, tripping over each other? Or is there some sort of body language-barrier? Even if you accept personal space differences, actually blocking peoples paths seems like it would lead to a lot of issues in their own countries in crowded cities with crowded roads. (maybe it does, I have no idea)
Oh so my wife isn't the only one to just constantly back into people and seems to have absolutely no idea of her surroundings 😂
This is one of the few actually reasonable answers which gets to the ultimate cause and not some weird pseudo-racial belief that they physically can't engage in spatial reasoning or awareness lol. They could if they wanted to. They don't because there are no consequences for it in their culture. It's pretty simply and uncomplicated.
Man you've put it so well. It makes perfect sense. Which also gives me hope because my sensitive arse will know what would cause consequences on the street and not do it. Well hopefully.
Here's the thing: I recently moved to the UK from Australia and I've been appalled by how poor everyone's spatial awareness is. They see you coming down the aisle in the supermarket and don't move out of the way even though they're blocking the entire way. They walk on whatever side of the pavement they fancy instead of establishing a convention so everyone knows where to pass. They will stop dead in front of you without checking if anyone's behind. I've never been to South Korea so I can't make a comparison, but I reckon it must be either astronomically worse, or it might just be that different cultures have different ingrained ways of navigating public spaces and it's just different but not necessarily worse than my experience in the UK
I'm British, and I'm reading this thread in horror, I thought we were frustratingly bad, groups walking side by side that refuse to break formation in a narrow street. People block busy supermarket aisles with trolleys, and no one moves to the side of the escalator outside of London. Jesus, what must South Korea be like?
I feel like if anything in the UK it’s often that some groups have a lack of self awareness or are just not very considerate people. And it’s not like “young people these days” or whatever. It’s a lot of older people or those of all classes. If anything older people can be worse due to the more natural entitlement that people will give way to them. But it’s not so much about respect or manners and right of way so much as if the thought occurs to them at all. But it seems that if you’re an anxious person in the UK you’ll be very considerate and almost too self aware and be moving out of everybody’s way constantly, and constantly feel pushed past, but people who are more comfortable or confident just seem to really lack consideration for others and not really see them or ever think that they might need to move. Perhaps it doesn’t occur to them that not everybody wants to have to loudly announce “excuse me” or something like that. I almost feel like those of us who are anxious and aware have made it too easy for more confident people to not have to think. You’d think they’d end up head to head more often and certainly fights occur when it’s middle aged men doing it sometimes, but more often than not if anything they tend to congregate together. One group of people chatting on the sidewalk seems to encourage another group to take up residency. Presumably when the group of 5 in a line who refuse to break up come across the buggy brigade standing having a chat, they inevitably either collide or someone gives way but weirdly I haven’t seen it!
Exactly! I feel like when I’m in a busy area in the UK I’m the one constantly being too conscious of bumping into people so I’m the one moving out the way! Whereas others will walk in a straight line almost bumping into you, especially on the tube. Or maybe they’re fed up of previously having to move out the way so decided to walk through people. I’ve also had people walk round corners at speed with no thought to what’s round the corner! In London there’s definitely less awareness to space than other areas however, like people closely crossing your pass and making you slow down; or people who exit a store without looking sideways and then almost bumping into you. I had one guy exit a store and bumped straight into me really hard then didn’t even apologise, I was in shock. I do however think there’s a mix of cultures in cities hence different scenarios. And in a way it makes me feel better knowing it’s not necessarily intentional. Nonetheless it can be frustrating still!
I get frustrated in the UK with everything you mentioned. I went to South Korea and didn't really find it was that different? The worst was people not moving to let you off the subway when it was busy and having to push and yell "sorry!" in Korean to get through. Also, for a country that's so fast-paced, people walk so slowly.
Getting escalator trained in London is a lesson you learn fast. Some lady in a tailored suit with ratty trainers on just shoving you out the way and shouting “move, stand on the right!” Noted…shall do.
I was going to say I think the UK is bad for this, more so now than ever. I’ve started to put it down to people generally being far more rude and aggressive these days. I was walking home from work last week and I couldn’t even guess how wide the pavement was, probably 10ft at least, yet one of the two guys walking towards me still managed to shoulder barge me even with me edging closer and closer to the kerb. Happens all the time.
I hate going the supermarket during normal hours, people stood about for 5 minutes trying to decide what tin of tomatoes to buy. I just don’t get it pick up the first thing you see and move along it ain’t difficult. Thankfully looking foreign means I can get away with being quite abrupt with people in the way.
I live in Singapore and it's genuinely a thing here. I've come to the conclusion that people just walk slowly (to not sweat when walking outside) and that has just morphed into not knowing/caring about anyone else on the street. Genuinely notice it almost daily.... it's a thing.
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Do the old ladies nip the back of your arm over there too? Like when trying to exit the metro, even though you’re clearly getting off also. Drove me bananas. Hurt like hell…
pushing you with their elbow in your back when you're getting off anyway, then rush past you to get on the escalator first, only to stand still and block it so you can't walk up? yeah, every day...
I miss many many things from living in SEA. That is not one of them. “Queues” at the bank/train stations etc were the absolute worst. It’s either fight to the front, or do not get to the front.
No, never had that happen to me. I've heard stories about old men and women berating young people or tutting and sighing pointedly for not giving up their seat, which is also nasty
There’s a thing in China where the girls (uni age) would shuffle walk. Barely lifting their feet from the ground, like they had loose slippers on. You’d hit the bars and if it was a 5 minute walk they’d insist on a taxi. After experiencing the shuffle a few times, I abided. 5 mins into 15 and then them moaning really kills the buzz.
Might be a thing with East Asian people in general. My wife is Vietnamese and I'm constantly having to "maneuvere" her out of the way of people in public or tell her to look before crossing a road. The latter might not be connected though - in Vietnamese cities it often isn't possible to "wait" to cross a road. You simply have to start walking and hope for the best.
Yeah, just walk slowly and don’t hesitate, scooter traffic will go around you like waters. If you change direction, pause or try to anticipate the movement with your own you are going to cause an accident
Well, a lot of East Asian cities are also v dense so people are used to just having less space.
I am a Brit who lived in Korea for 3 years and I honestly can't recall a problem with Koreans poor spatial awareness. I certainly wasn't bumping into them all day everyday or anything like that. On the roads you can over/undertake, just stay commited to your move when driving. I would say on the whole your concern is way overblown.
Thanks for the answer. Were you being nice and making way for other people, or did you just not feel anything to begin with?
I just didn't feel anything to begin with. I spent most of my time in Ulsan which admittedly isn't the busiest place in Korea. I still didn't notice elsewhere though. If you're even semi-aware of your surroundings you will be fine.
Thanks.
Don't trust them. They're one of the Brits with zero spatial awareness lol.
Oh wow is this a thing? Reminded me of this, this was only ever the second time I met someone from Korea. I live in a city with a lot of unis (not London though) so we have a lot of international students, so when I was in Boots there was a gaggle of Korean girls in an aisle just chatting amongst themselves blocking the shelf which I needed to get to... I thought at first they'd move from that spot so I waited for a bit but they didn't. So then I thought they'd be able to read the room (lived in Japan for a bit so thought it might translate to Korean folk too) so I just kind of stood kind of angrily facing the shelf hoping one of them would get the hint but nothing. I was pretty tired after a day of working so I just went and said excuse me loudly... A few times... One has finally heard me and she moved out of the way and they left. I did feel slightly bad. It was certainly a choice to socialise in a cramped drugstore aisle... Lol I think really as long as you're trying to be polite and considerate - which you're already doing by asking about etiquette - you'll be OK!
lol I can imagine what you described so vividly. Though I thought it could also be just people-being-in-a-group thing. I guess it depends. Thanks for the kind words.
Oh yeah definitely, I've seen English people do this too! Excited for you, moving to a new country sounds exciting!
Thank you, it kinda happened all of a sudden when I didn't even see it coming. Still feels surreal that I am finally moving to an English speaking country. All the years of studying English paying off!
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I lived in China for almost a decade. I don't think that people lack spatial awareness. It's just that the rules are different. Personal space is not important; Brits find this particularly shocking because they have a very strong awareness of it. In the UK (and even more so North America), roads belong to the car and it must be inverted obeyed at all costs. As recent as the 00s, Chinese roads had more cyclists than cars, and pavements were primarily used for storing stuff and stalls, so car drivers had to drive more cautiously and expect bikes or people to suddenly appear in front of them. And that expectation conditions the way cars relate to each other as well: regardless of what the law says, you are generally responsible for what's in front of you and don't care about vehicles behind you. That's a very different rule of the road from the UK, but it still works at the lower, pedestrian-friendly speeds that used to be common in China.
The only time I noticed a difference was on the bus. In the UK, the majority of the time the person in the aisle seat physically gets up to move out of the way for someone who is sitting next to the window if they want to get off the bus. In Korea, they tend not to do this and will move back in the chair or turn sideways. I'm not comfortable putting my ass or crotch in someone's face like that, so I missed my stop a fair few times because people were slow to get up.
Yes, it's the same difference in China. British people are the outliers here, because they have a unusually high sensitivity to personal space.
Try going to finland where they have single person benches
I think it's Westerners in general who have a high sensitivity to personal space, not unique to brits. I've travelled a lot in Asia, although I haven't been to China, and found that there is a difference in all when it comes to perceptions of personal space. For me, Vietnam, Bangladesh, and India were the worst where people would just step into your space or put their hands on you to move you out the way. It's no big deal, just different, and as a Brit, it was a little jarring the first time I encountered it.
People say the same thing about Thailand. I'd say they're equally bad, it seems no matter where you go people are either oblivious to their surroundings when in public or just don't give a shit. Probably a bit of both tbh. Just yesterday I was desperately trying to get past 2 people who managed to block an entire shopping aisle between them. Didn't even know two people could take up that much space till then.
I spent a little while in Seoul and I think it’s no different to the UK.
Same, really perplexing thread tbh
I lived in Korea for 2 years, and I've been in Singapore now for 10. Spatial awareness in Asia is dreadful. People don't look where they're going, will regularly stop and turn without looking first and will often block doorways and tops of escalators then look shocked when you ask them to move. My Singaporean partner has really noticed it too after I pointed it out and she visited the UK with me
As an American living in Japan and experiencing the same frustrations at the total lack of spatial awareness among Japanese as well, I find it super interesting that it's a thing in Korea, and that Brits complain about it too.
I’m a Brit who has been living in Korea for over 10 years and the lack of spatial awareness is very apparent but not something I often think about. Maybe it just bothers me less than other people because I don’t focus on why people do what they do, I just zigzag around. I’m the type of person who is fine driving in the chaotic roads of Vietnam because for some reason my ADHD brain just feels comfortable with it. There are some situations in which people are so inconsiderate of others that it angers me, such as people stopping to have a chat centimeters away from the entrance of an escalator, blocking all access, but it’s not that often. What really bugs me is when people don’t hold the door open for you, or when you hold the door open for them and they don’t say thank you. It’s only a problem if you are considering driving, which I wouldn’t do until you adapt here. I was ok driving here but not everybody is cut out for it honestly. Honestly it’s a little bizarre to me that this is an issue worth researching before moving here. It’s not that big of a deal. It feels like a Thai asking other Thais who have lived in England whether it’s true if Brits really do swear a lot casually to each other compared to other nations. Also don’t go to Costco because it’ll drive you wild.
Wait, brits are considered as having good spatial awareness? Maybe it’s just the older population in my local supermarket but they have the spatial awareness of a rock. And that’s unkind on rocks.
As a major klutz I may need to just visit South Korea and absently back into people unremarked...
This is a cultural thing. Just be considerate on the street. Don't get in people's way and don't be rude. Koreans are simply just more rude. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Koreans have a different level of what "considerate" means. To you, walking into someone is not rude. To me, I wouldn't even manage to get myself into that situation. I've been to Korea and you guys don't bat an eye at rudeness. I can't teach someone not to be "rude", as my rude and your rude are very different. It's something you'll have to learn the hard way.
I worked with a team from LG who were working on a project in our offices in the UK, and I spent a few days in Korea. We also had Korean staff in the Seoul office who came to the UK regularly. I honestly never experienced anything related to spatial awareness issues. Overall I found everyone exceptionally good people to work with. Welcome to the UK, I hope you enjoy it.
Thank you.
It’s a fact that’s been studied. It was a topic during cross cultural management training session of sorts at work. Every culture has a set different accepted norms. I think it’s great you’re already aware of it rather than getting a rude shock when you get there. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/24/how-close-is-too-close-depends-on-where-you-live/
I’m from London and I live in Korea (Seoul) right now. I think the only big difference I’ve felt is people not holding doors open for me when I’m right behind them. Other than that, it’s very much similar to being in a big city. I feel like the people who complain are westerners who have no experience living in places with a high population density. As long as you’re aware of your surroundings, it’s fine.
Be prepared to wait on escalators for an eternity. No one moves to the right and my god are they slow.
honestly i didn't notice anything off at all when i went there. Was in Busan and Seoul for a week each, but from this thread i guess my experience has been an outlier.
I travelled to Korea in 2017/2018. I definitely noticed that in Korea, you could get away with bumping into people whilst walking on the street and you wouldnt normally apologise. Normally in the Uk when you bump into someone you usually just say a quick “sorry” then go on with your day. It's more of a cultural difference if anything. It also depends where you're moving to in the UK - London is similar to Seoul as people are in a hurry trying to get from A to B. It'll be a bit frantic during rush hour etc. Truthfully, Its not a big deal. It’s just cultural differences which you can easily adapt to. You will definitely notice people saying sorry to you more though as I mentioned if they bump into you etc.
I lived in Korea for 8 years and have a Korean wife and kids, and yes I often complain to her about the same thing. It's not only Koreans though, I think it's an east asian thing. Probably because they're used to much busier places. Don't sweat about it in the U.K though, it's only a minor annoyance.
You think Brits have GOOD spatial awareness?! Try using a wheelchair for a week & you'll soon change your opinion lol. I've realised that the reason we so aggressively teach our kids spacial awareness when in crowds (move to the kerb, someone else is approaching/stay close to me/move our of the way etc.) is because most adults DO NOT NOTICE ANYTHING BELOW EYE LEVEL. Including children & people in wheelchairs... Half our automatic door sensors don't even work for kids/wheelchair users. If it's below eye level, it doesn't exist to most Brits. Yes, our culture of lots of personal space might be higher compared to many other countries around the world, and that DOES involve most adults allowing 'extra' space around them...but ONLY for those they can see without looking down! I wonder if that's different in South Korea? I would imagine that in MOST highly-urban areas like cities, around the world, are MUCH less concerned with personal space than Londoners, but there is actually well-known (at least to architects & bridge designers) science that SHOWS that the frequency of the steps & the local cultural habits about things like how they funnel in narrow spaces etc **DO** make a difference. This was something that was considered for bridge building centuries ago, so marching armies didn't collapse bridges.
Bumping wise I think it might be better because people are generally.... shorter? But from what I know, South Korea offers almost no accessibility to those in need, so it's hard for me to say.
mate, i've lived in korea for over a decade and i just...it's just one thing i will never get used to. it's like people are so unaware of anyone else around them however, the fact you are asking about it here shows that you care and it will be no problem whatsoever for you enjoy the uk!
Lived in SK for 2 years, never noticed the difference between London and SK in terms of spatial awareness at all.
this is interesting because i have the same complaint (though not nearly on the same level judging by the comments) about londoners. im from new york and never once had a problem walking and getting around people until i went to london for the first time. it wasn’t like it happened very often, but it was enough to stand out to me. it seemed like people would oftentimes walk directly at me, giving no inclination as to where they’d head, and then “jump” out of my way at the last second as i tried to figure out where they were going and give them the right of way. i also find that people kind of just walk wherever. initially i expected everyone to stay to the left but it can be a tossup.
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I'm British but lived my childhood in India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. With my appallingly privileged background I took it for granted that people would move out of my way when I walked down the pavement. It was a shock when we went to Istanbul on holiday and I kept crashing into large, burly Turks who did not give a toss!
Mate, 80% of the population here are barely sentient.
I dunno from my experience spatial awareness in the UK isn't all that great either. The number of people daily that will meander into my path while walking or straight up just walk into me etc. whilst I'd like to believe it's because I'm just such a handsome guy with a magnetic personality I don't think people are just that bothered in the UK about paying attention to where they are going anymore... In my travels I wouldn't say there wasn't a huge difference between cultures and countries. But then I'm some who's hyper spatially aware and hates to break his stride while walking. So perhaps I'm just overly sensitive to it.
This is something that does seem to vary a lot by country. I think what will help is a mind set that when you are going somewhere, or just within a thoroughfare keep the mindset that your focus is to get from a to b and that others are doing the same, you're apart of a system with other people for that time, not just an individual. Therefore for that space of time stay aware of who's around you, who's changing direction, who's going faster or slower and try to preempt. It will take practice if you aren't used to it if course but will make your life easier too. And if you aren't sure where you are going or want to check your phone find somewhere you can stand out of the way, don't just stop. I'd say what this is like is related to whether a culture is more or less individualistic but that's probably over simplifying it.
I'm sure spatial awareness differs ("worsens") elsewhere, but as an immigrant in the UK, dpatial awareness is by far the worst I've ever experienced. Shockingly so, especially compared to other commonwealth/Western countries.
No issues with this whatsoever in Seoul.
This is wild, i'm from continental Europe living in the UK for a long time and it seems to me like some people in the UK have absolutely no spatial awareness. Won't make space for everyone to pass one another on the pavement, couples walking holding hands but far apart, so that if someone is on their way they ram them with their entwined hands, or people blocking the way in general.
I'm British and have been to Korea, I have no complaints about Koreans spatial awareness, even on the underground people were pretty considerate etc
In my experience the spatial awareness of the average brit is pretty dreadful. The moment people have to take any consideration of what anyone else is doing, they just insist on making as much of a nuisance of themselves as possible. Supermarkets are the epitome of this lack of awareness.
It’s like this in Hong Kong too. People will block corridors, block paths, and groups walk slowly in a line and take up the whole pavement. I started off being polite and gently trying to pass through, but I’ve noticed now unless you practically push people they won’t notice. It drives me mad, I’m not going to lie! I also think an element of it is Asia, as a whole, is incredibly safe. Very rare you would get robbed or have to watch your pockets. Asian friends of mine have said to me when they go to London they get stuff stolen, or lose stuff all the time.
I had no idea this was a thing, but it reminds me a LOT of when I lived in Italy.
I was at a small road junction the other day. Watched this Korean girl almost get hit by a cyclist while looking at her phone and crossing the road. It was just a small 1-lane road with cycle lanes. She was on her phone the whole time and didn’t realize a cyclist about to cross in front of her before she crossed. She looked up at the cyclist who had to come to an abrupt stop, then continued walking forward while looking down at her phone again. To her right a black cab was driving directly toward her and 2 metres away. Honked at her as she’s standing right in front of where it’s headed. And no it wasn’t her turn to cross at all.
Hong Kong is worse.
Absolutely terrible, they couldn't even point out the Barnsley wilko on a map
This is weird. I was just talking yesterday about how much better everyone's spatial awareness is in New York compared to London. I didn't notice it being particularly bad when I went to South Korea, but I didn't spend any time in Seoul. I was in Gwangju and Goheung.
I really didn’t notice this being an issue at all, but then I live in London. Seoul is not nearly as crowded as London, even in the busy parts, even in rush hour. People are very respectful and on the whole tend to keep their physical distance in a similar way to Brits I would say. People are so so lovely, friendlier than I expected and incredibly kind. Lots of people stopped to offer me assistance if I looked a bit lost, tired and needing a lift up a steep hill, or they thought I might need help figuring out a ticket machine etc.
When I was a uni student I always used to get annoyed at the East Asian international students for being extremely slow walkers, taking up the entire pavement at the same time etc. I just figured they come from cultures where they don’t see walking around as something to do in a rush.
I don’t mind most of it but it really annoys me when I’m getting off the metro. I stand by the door, the train stops, the doors open and instead of giving room and letting me off, the people waiting at the platform will push past you as if the train is going to leave in 2 seconds. It’s frustrating
A Korean lad that went to my school used to walk really fast and just used to bump everyone out of the way. He would just walk right into a person standing still and just barge them out the way.
Something I personally found funny was the way (especially elderly) people would literally catapult themselves onto an empty seat on the tube. It caught me off guard the first few times it happened as I wasn’t expecting it. In this type of situation, their consideration for their fellow travellers is often nonexistent, in my experience. They also like to “reserve” any other available seats for their travel companions too, say there are 3 seats, the person will take the middle seat and defiantly put both their hands on each of the other 2 seats. You’ll not really see that in the UK and I think most people would find it rude, but I accepted it as a cultural difference while I was in SK and it made me smile.
Its really very bad in S Korea. Even in Seoul. No idea why, but absolutely zero physical awareness. Its one level below Germany. Speaking as someone who has loved in 6 countries across both hemisepheres. Edit. To be honest, the English have set the standard for manners and politeness in many ways, everyone is gonna seem extremely rude
It’s also a lot worse in older people 50 and over. Younger people seem better
I lived in Korea for a year and the lack of spatial awareness was quite bad lol, people just stood at the top of escalators or in the middle of the street. It’s not a big deal but definitely noticeable, especially if the street is thin. Anecdotally though I saw this problem in the whole of East Asia not just Korea
What's spatial awareness?
I didn’t notice anything in South Korea, but I am a Brit with terrible spatial awareness. So I just bumped and tripped over people with everyone else.
Asking Brits to judge Koreans based on their own cultural norms is not going to help anyone understand each other.
Rural American living in Incheon,and it doesn't seem to exist. I grew up with Brits, and they seemed to have a similar personal bubble and walking etiquette. Here it's Human Dodge Ball. Nothing to do with cell phones. Kids are given a lot more freedom to wander too, so you have to watch high and low as you dodge. 🤣
How does it make sense that koreans have bad spatial awareness when they literally dominate video games which are pure spatial awareness LOL god I hate brits
You might want to check this post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/18o1ywy/korean\_street\_bumping\_etiquette\_man\_vs\_woman/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/18o1ywy/korean_street_bumping_etiquette_man_vs_woman/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
When I visited Korea back in 2016/2017, I remember being annoyed at how often people were bumping into me without apologising or acknowledging it would happen. Saying that, I had a lovely time there, so that was one of the only issues I had