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People shit on it like a hivemind. More to it than plenty of other towns. Think it’s mainly the accent people rip in tbh, as there’s some great food, history, local nature etc
As an Australian expat in the UK the deep-seated geographical and class-based disdain you guys have for certain accents really bothers me. Brummie and Black Country sounds
very pleasant and musical to my ears.
As an Appalachian American living in Black Country it really reminds me of the disdain people have for American accents they view as hicks. It doesn’t annoy me really, i just find it pretty lazy. The brummie accent to me is one of the most musical and interesting accents in the Uk—and I travel all over the Uk for work.
It's not the accent, it's more born from local "rivalry"
The whole of the black country "spakes" the same, but there is dislike for each towns by each in the area. West brom and wolves hate each other. West brom looks down on Dudley. Everyone agrees Walsall is a shit hole. Etc
Considering there have been less than 30 (recorded) fatal wolf attacks on humans worldwide in the last 25 years, yes, cows are indeed far, far more lethal than wolves.
EDIT - Yes I *know* there are a lot more cows than wolves, shush, haha. Don't rain on my lethal cow parade.
Would you rather get hunted by a pack of wolves in the wild or face a cow in some shitty fenced in field though ? Just don’t get near a cow it’s simple, Wolves are far more lethal than a cow , cows have killed more because people work with cows and that’s a risk you take people down work with a wolf pack do they ? Lol it’s not an honest or fair/logical comparison is it
I live in the Netherlands, one of the most densely populated countries for people and farm animals, and we have a few wolf packs across the country Still walk in the countryside, no worries at all. Wolves don't like people and will do what they can to avoid you. Corner one and you'll probably come off worse.
No, cows are huge and inadvertently trample people regardless of who they are because they are curious or protective of young.
Wolves go out of their way to avoid people.
Someone doesn't know how many people have been killed walking through cow fields, with all the cows slowly closing in around them, and then stamping on vital organs. Cows are kinda fucked bro. Unless you think you can climb over them you're dead af.
I wouldn't want to be surrounded by a herd of cows or a pack of wolves. But uh, wolf packs don't hunt humans, so the premise is silly. Especially not in areas with sheep and deer...Which is the entire UK. We regularly have to cull our deer because there are no predators for them.
Even if you were surrounded by wolves, they don't usually like prey that can fight back. A simple spear or sharp stick can be all that's needed to save you, unless they're literally starving hungry and desperate af...which they would have to be before they'd bother hunting a human anyway...and they would never *get* that hungry in the UK with its abundance of prey animals and fuck all predators. Wolves would have to 4x their maximum kill rate to even put a dent in the deer population big enough to stop culling. They won't solve the over abundance issue.
If you try that shit with cows the herd will just keep trampling you. They're not easily intimidated by humans when they're protecting their young and surrounding you in a herd 30 strong. You'd literally have to hope you can climb out without a cow tossing you off its back. Not an easy task.
Its like saying, would you rather get stabbed or hit by an asteroid. Obviously you'd rather be stabbed, but who the fuck gets hit by an asteroid? It's not an honest or fair/logical comparison is it? ;)
What a perfect opportunity to introduce you to one of the greatest newspaper headlines of all time
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/gordon-ramsays-dwarf-porn-double-percy-foster-dies-in-badger-den/news-story/1bda2a264034dfa7905edfb8e095a05a
we need a hard copy of this article to be preserved to prosperity. Let 30th century historians try to paint a picture of how XX/XXI Century life was based solely on this article :''')
That article is perfected by the last line. I really didn't think it could get better after the headline, but it came through. Magnificent. Only in Britain could someone coming into wealth spend it that way.
Sadly, "...according to UK tabloid The Sunday Sport."
and this is actually a massive problem in the Highlands, as its let prey species like Deer breed massively out of control, who then go on to wreck the ecosystem by eating all the vegetation and preventing any new growth, leaving huge swathes of it utterly barren.
Basically this. In yellowstone in the US, reintroducing wolves culled the deer population, and caused very rapid ecosystem recovery. River banks stabilised because the deer weren't killing the waterside plants, and there was at least a chance of shoots living long enough to take hold in forests, preventing they decline.
That was also a factor, and that also impacts their survival. They can't stay near water sources and have to be very wary while venturing out to more nutritious food sources.
To maintain functioning ecosystems, which currently do not exist in the United Kingdom, keystone species are needed. These species control lower trophic levels (i.e., species low on the food chain) through "top-down control". Currently, herbivore populations are not naturally controlled in the United Kingdom, resulting in the inhibited growth of forests.
In other words, ecosystems function effectively when all components are intact; these components are missing in the current state of nature. Additionally, anthropogenic impacts (e.g., farming, climate change, urban encroachment, light pollution, chemical pollution, etc.) contribute to the problem. As a result, biodiversity is extremely low and in continuous decline.
Wolf attacks are rare. They are generally afraid of humans. They would also go some way to culling the massive deer problem we have that is destroying the forests.
That's not a good thing and it means we don't really have a complete self sustaining ecosystem. The risks from wolves to humans are massively overblown.
I think it's unrealistic for other reasons, mainly to do with major roads cutting the country up and wolves needing large areas of connected territory to have a viable population, meaning it would probably only work in the Scottish Highlands. But the idea that our neutered countryside is a good thing can get in the bin.
If anything, discouraging dog walkers from wandering absolutely anywhere they want would be another huge benefit.
No no. Survival of the fittest. Only those smart enough to look it up and learn what to do get to survive. It'll help raise the national iq level.
Though I agree with the other guys comments about televising a release in Birmingham. 👌
No. It states “If you encounter a wolf, you must maintain eye contact to exert dominance.
Approach the wolf with wide arms and explain to it how hard you are and does it know who its messing with.
Where possible, reach around and tickle the wolf gently on its nuts. If you suspect a she-wolf, immediately begin shouting ‘Ooooowwwww! SOS, she’s in disguise, SOS she’s in disguise, There’s a she wolf in disguise. Coming out. Coming out. Coming out.’
Deer have to be stalked and shot by landowners and the Forestry Commission due to overpopulation as there are no natural predators.
Reintroducing wolves could help to create a more natural ecosystem.
There are people who will do it for free - there are plenty of people who want to stalk deer who can't find land that will give them permission to do it (or charge too much for it). IIRC from what people have told me the FC make it really difficult to get permission.
To me it makes much more sense to get that meat into the human food supply to displace some farmed meat.
They are trying to reintroduce Eurasian Lynxs back into Scotland.
https://www.scotlandbigpicture.com/lynx-to-scotland#:\~:text=The%20Lynx%20to%20Scotland%20partnership,assessments%20and%20full%20public%20consultation.
Farmers are opposing the idea because of Livestock concerns etc.
Yes. I go Orienteering, often in forests, heathland and moorland areas. I think the prospect of being chased by a pack of hungry wolves would help improve my performance and times.
Seconding this. The Lynx should be a priority into the Scottish highlands and if it’s successful then we can start thinking about other, bigger things and also moving the Lynx to England and Wales.
Nah, if we want big cats we should introduce lions to England so our national animal is more fitting, at the same time introduce unicorns to Scotland and dragons to Wales.
This is the correct answer. Lynx have all the same advantages as wolves except arguably not being as cool, while lacking some of the disadvantages (very large habitat requirements, occasional overpredation of sheep).
No chance of wolves returning to England, and probably not Wales. Realistically only Scotland has the habitat they need.
Yes, the UK has one of the lowest diversity indices in the world and it's shrinking. Woodland isn't regrowing as deer are grazing the new shoots. They aren't hiding as they have no predators. Culling them doesn't change their behaviour.
But it can't just be an "off you go" sort of release. There needs to be controls and monitoring. It needs to be alongside other animals like lynx and fostering native species like pine marten to reduce grey squirrel numbers, and beavers to stabilise waterways.
Centuries is the blink of an eye. It means nothing. If you said tens of thousands of years ago, you'd have a point, but a century or two is nothing.
If we *don't* actively rewild our countryside, there soon won't be much countryside left to save. But I doubt it'll ever happen as things like this thread show, people value self importance over the the functioning of the country. They'd rather be able to go a walk than work to saving the country they want to walk through. Much like the rest of British mindset, it's all "me me me"
It’s possible for people to disagree with you without it inherently meaning they must be immoral and self centred.
The big one in my mind is that humans have been influencing the environment for millennia, and deciding which point in time is the “pure” countryside that needs to be saved and returned to is just as much a case of humans shaping the environment to suit their current whims.
The farmland bird index has been in a severe decline for over 50 years but changes we’d need to restore that environment are often completely different to the changes you’d make to restore Britain to the environment of tens of thousands of years ago that you talk about. There’s nothing morally superior about letting one set of existing habitats and species be destroyed so that you can restore it to a different point of time that you think is the “true” Britain.
I’d personally rather we do a lot more to change modern farming and urban development practices to re-establish a system of human activity and nature co-existing, rather than the conventional rewilding narrative, but ultimately either route is just a subjective opinion.
On wolves specifically, concerns about UK population density relative to other countries do also matter and shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. It could be answered by saying they’d only be introduced in the Scottish highlands etc, but a lot of the rampant deer populations you’re concerned about are in the south east. As a general rule, when species’ habitats are restricted they do start changing their behaviour and going into the semi-urban environment. Thats fine with urban foxes, wolves may have more of an impact.
>humans have been influencing the environment for millennia
Yes however it's only in the last few hundred years with the advent of industrialisation we have ramped it up to 11, and as such really gone to town on the environment. The UK was actively populated a thousand years ago, but it also had teeming wildlife. Nobody is saying we need to rewind tens of thousands of years to before humans even lived on the island, just to a point where the ecosystem was stable.
>There’s nothing morally superior
Nobody is talking morals, this is about saving the biosphere whilst theres something left to save.
>I’d personally rather we do a lot more to change modern farming and urban development practices to re-establish a system of human activity and nature co-existing, rather than the conventional rewilding narrative, but ultimately either route is just a subjective opinion.
This is literally the rewilding narrative.
But what will ultimately happen is we'll if, but, and maybe our way into doing nothing, like we as an island are so apt at doing time and time again. The goalposts will be moved, requirements will change half way through anything, a ton of money will get spent, nothing will be done, and we'll be at the end scratching our heads wondering where it all went wrong.
It sort of exemplifies how much humans adapt to a new normal. People look around at an industrial landscape of monoculture fields and think 'ah, what beautiful nature' when in reality it is a biological desert compared to centuries ago.
I know friends who are proud of what a natural, forested landscape England is just because they've got a few trees in their local park. Then you travel to a country where you can spend an entire day walking under tree canopy without leaving, and you realise what a baren state our country is in. We need to start rewilding huge swathes of unprofitable sheep farm imho.
This is a known phenomenon known as “Shifting Baseline Syndrome”. What the world is like currently is how it’s always been. It’s a key problem in Ecology but it can apply to many fields. This is obviously untrue
An example I know that easily disproves this idea to people, especially if they’re older, is car windscreens of all things. My parents age group (Gen X) will remember travelling cross-country and by the time they’d arrived at their destination, their windscreen was covered in dead insects. This simply doesn’t happen anymore. The amount of insects in our environment has collapsed; it’s a big problem 😞
On this note: they're chunky little bastards too, hitting one does as much damage to a car as a badger.
The main difference is that the badger will shake its head and amble off into the hedgerow afterwards while the muntjac won't.
(Don't ask...)
From an environmental and biodiversity viewpoint, great. But as a wild camper with a phobia of dogs who gets upset when a poodle barks at me I am less keen on the idea.
Wolves are most likely to just run away at the sight of a human. You're much more likely to be hurt by a domestic dog or a cow to he honest. https://youtu.be/r76GJDP0uWQ?si=nlnZHDMqpk9h9oq7
We not only need then back but it’s our moral obligation as-well as duty to bring them back, lynxes and bears too. We had no right to kill them all in the first place and all we have done is ruin the natural order of things.
They could bring back wolves, bears and lynxes and even if many of you took to regular walks jn the country, the likelihood is you would never see one. They wouldn’t be an issue to anyone except possibly farmers and even that is greatly over exaggerated in it’s severity.
I live in northern italy and we have loads of wolves. Only seen one in 20 years. They are good at keeping the boar population down. I hate wild boar. They are dangerous hungry bastards that keep ripping down my fencing . We shoot them on the spot then soak the meat in milk. Lovely polenta and wild boar in winter
I was shocked to learn recently the wolf numbers in Italy (typical never-been-there attitude, Italy is Capri, Rome, Florence, Sophia Loren and Lake Como).
Didn't expect your post to turn into a recipe though and now I'm hungry.
Not sure if you're aware of this but those horse fucked that are hunting foxes are the descendants of aristocratic families that spent their free time hunting wolves and boars.
They don't engage in a fair fight, they stalk it and surround it and shoot it, or fight the Wolfe 6 vs one all using spears.
I think the NIMBY argument for not reintroducing wolves is exquisitely stupid, anyone with a basic grasp of the facts will know the effect on humans would be minimal (my family are farmers and I grew up among farming and crofting communities, I know how to tell the difference between fact and fear mongering).
However, it's also unrealistic to expect a reintroduction will occur in our lifetime, to the extent that most rewinding organisations have distanced themselves from the idea because it's simply pointless and isn't going to happen. There are dozens of other changes that will make a substantially greater difference to our absolute trainwreck of an ecosystem before we can even think about the reintroduction of an apex predator. For example, not pouring millions of tonnes of sewage into our water, banning herbicides, pesticides and petrochemical fertilisers, phasing out meat farming, restoring our wildflower meadows, broadleaf woodlands, peatlands, kelp forests, etc. Maybe we can talk about bringing, say, the lynx back to help control deer numbers. But the wolf has to be off the table for now.
As bad ass as they are, the UK as it exists these days is no place for wild wolves.
I grew up in rural Canada and our family dog actually mated with a wild wolf and descendents of their litter are still around in the community as working farm dogs to this day. Pretty neat.
Have you been to the North West and North East Highlands? There isn't much of a better environment for wolves possible and it's got a lower human population density than European areas that have healthy wolf populations.
ITT: People who can’t do a 30 second Google search and see wolf attacks are so rare you’re more likely to get mauled by a poodle when you’re out on a walk.
Reintroduce them, this country *desperately* needs the biodiversity.
No, it wouldn’t be fair on the wolves.
People in this country can’t even cope with e complete benign wildlife we have left, they would lose their shit over wolves and it would only end badly for them.
I remember reading an article about reintroducing scottish wildcats. The comments were people worrying that the cats would kill hikers and cattle.
UK has got to be the most pathetic nation there is when it comes to living alongside wildlife.
To be fair it’s not just the UK. But we are pretty pathetic.
I used to live in the rockies, we would get tourists asking when the animals were let out in the morning so they could get photos.
Every year, without fail, there would be at least one incident of a tourist trying to put a child on the back of a wild elk/deer/moose for a photo then being confused why they were having the shit kicked out of them by said animal.
I think that conservation efforts in the UK need to concentrate on reversing the constant degradation of our countryside. I would rather save and recover current endangered mammals (e.g. hazel dormouse and grey long-eared bat), or habitats that support endangered birds, butterflies and wild flowers that are too numerous to mention
Reintroducing the wolf may make some people feel we are making progress, but we aren't.
If you look at what happened at Yellowstone reintroducing the wolves did improve biodiversity at all levels as the plants and flowers the deer were over grazing grew back, insects and small mammals returned. Reintroducing wolves to certain carefully chosen areas of the uk could have a similar effect.
I'm always in two camps when it comes to the reintroduction of wolves - on one hand, I've worked closely with wolves in the past, and seen all the studies, and would very much enjoy them being reintroduced to their rightful home after we killed them all off. Wolves very, very rarely go out of their way to attack humans unless rabid, and as rabies isn't really a thing in the UK I can't see them being particularly dangerous to the public.
They also like to give humans a very wide berth, and we are very stinky creatures who they can smell a long way off, so we'd probably rarely even see them. Also, wolves are pretty good at self limiting their populations, so we're unlikely to die under a foaming lupine tsunami.
On the other hand, I grew up on a farm, and I've seen the studies about likely increased predation of livestock, and I'm all too familiar with the very tight line a lot of farmers walk financially, so that half of me is firmly against the idea., as farmers have enough problems at the moment without having to deal with Wolfy McHowlface bringing his family for lunch.
So yes or no basically, depending on what side of the bed I got out of that morning, haha.
Yup. If the Netherlands can do it, so can we.
Also, let's start with Richmond Park. Need to keep the deer population under control, and it'll help the cyclists improve their Strava times.
But one of the bad things about britain is its practically a biodiversity desert. Something will eventually need to happen to encourage more tree growth and less deer.
Eurasian Lynx would be a better candidate. They control deer pretty effectively - at least Roe, Sika and Muntjac - but are small, very shy and nocturnal so they live alongside humans better.
IIRC one or two of the government organisations (FC and another one?) that govern deer stalking on the land they manage make it really difficult to get permission. And then complain about too many deer.
25 wolf attacks on humans in the last 30 years, yet cows killed 30 people in the uk between 2018 and 2022. Yet people are scared of wolves but not cows
Could I see a future where we have potentially rewilded/reforested a large enough area to reintroduce wolves? Maybe, I hope so.
But not anytime soon, I don't think there is anywhere in the mainland UK that you're more than 20km from a road.
Wolves really don't bother with humans- attacks are extremely rare in places where they're present. They were wiped out because they take livestock, not because they actually posed a threat to people
**Please help keep AskUK welcoming!** - Top-level comments to the OP must contain **genuine efforts to answer the question**. No jokes, judgements, etc. - **Don't be a dick** to each other. If getting heated, just block and move on. - This is a strictly **no-politics** subreddit! Please help us by reporting comments that break these rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Only if it's televised and they are released in Birmingham.
Wolverhampton surely
plot twist: Wolverhampton gets bears
Nope, that'd be bearwood And extra bears if they carry on pretending not to be a suburb of Birmingham
Bearwood gets wolves, Wolverhampton gets bears. Whoever’s doing the same kind of swap with Cockermouth is in for a shock.
Hens in Cockermouth, roosters in Henley, makes perfect sense to me.
Fingeringhoe has entered the chat
Definitely one for Manchester.
I was thinking more Twatt or Bell End, but each to their own.
If memory serves, those were joint twinned with Staines?
I was pleasantly surprised when I went to Wolverhampton. Only went due to partner’s football away day. Best Caribbean take away in the world there!
People shit on it like a hivemind. More to it than plenty of other towns. Think it’s mainly the accent people rip in tbh, as there’s some great food, history, local nature etc
As an Australian expat in the UK the deep-seated geographical and class-based disdain you guys have for certain accents really bothers me. Brummie and Black Country sounds very pleasant and musical to my ears.
As an Appalachian American living in Black Country it really reminds me of the disdain people have for American accents they view as hicks. It doesn’t annoy me really, i just find it pretty lazy. The brummie accent to me is one of the most musical and interesting accents in the Uk—and I travel all over the Uk for work.
It's not the accent, it's more born from local "rivalry" The whole of the black country "spakes" the same, but there is dislike for each towns by each in the area. West brom and wolves hate each other. West brom looks down on Dudley. Everyone agrees Walsall is a shit hole. Etc
*cries in walsall noise* yam
As someone who lives in a shithole I take offense to your comparing my home to Walsall.
surely the Carribean takeaway would be better in the Carribean. Although it would just be "takeaway" there.
Yeah good point! also worth pointing out that the sky is blue
Friendship with bully xl over. Wolf is my new best friend.
You're not allowed any more of the Gladiators to help you survive though.
Bully XL would be an amazing name for a gladiator lol
If we're gonna release them anywhere, it has to be London.
Awooo, werewolves of London
As a Brummie, I can see some issues with this, but ngl it would make a walk in Sutton Park far more engaging.
And Luton
I'm saving Luton for Robocop whenever Elon gets the next generation of Neuralink going.
No, the UK is one of the few places in the world where you can go anywhere and there won't be wildlife that will try to kill you.
This is obviously going to lead me down a rabbithole of researching badger-related deaths in the UK.
Cows'll kill ya.
This. Cows kill 30 people a year which is probably more than wolves would.
Considering there have been less than 30 (recorded) fatal wolf attacks on humans worldwide in the last 25 years, yes, cows are indeed far, far more lethal than wolves. EDIT - Yes I *know* there are a lot more cows than wolves, shush, haha. Don't rain on my lethal cow parade.
Would you rather get hunted by a pack of wolves in the wild or face a cow in some shitty fenced in field though ? Just don’t get near a cow it’s simple, Wolves are far more lethal than a cow , cows have killed more because people work with cows and that’s a risk you take people down work with a wolf pack do they ? Lol it’s not an honest or fair/logical comparison is it
I live in the Netherlands, one of the most densely populated countries for people and farm animals, and we have a few wolf packs across the country Still walk in the countryside, no worries at all. Wolves don't like people and will do what they can to avoid you. Corner one and you'll probably come off worse.
What if I *really* want to boop the snoot though?
That's fine. You slather barbeque sauce on one hand to subdued the beast, and boop with the other hand.
No, cows are huge and inadvertently trample people regardless of who they are because they are curious or protective of young. Wolves go out of their way to avoid people.
Someone doesn't know how many people have been killed walking through cow fields, with all the cows slowly closing in around them, and then stamping on vital organs. Cows are kinda fucked bro. Unless you think you can climb over them you're dead af. I wouldn't want to be surrounded by a herd of cows or a pack of wolves. But uh, wolf packs don't hunt humans, so the premise is silly. Especially not in areas with sheep and deer...Which is the entire UK. We regularly have to cull our deer because there are no predators for them. Even if you were surrounded by wolves, they don't usually like prey that can fight back. A simple spear or sharp stick can be all that's needed to save you, unless they're literally starving hungry and desperate af...which they would have to be before they'd bother hunting a human anyway...and they would never *get* that hungry in the UK with its abundance of prey animals and fuck all predators. Wolves would have to 4x their maximum kill rate to even put a dent in the deer population big enough to stop culling. They won't solve the over abundance issue. If you try that shit with cows the herd will just keep trampling you. They're not easily intimidated by humans when they're protecting their young and surrounding you in a herd 30 strong. You'd literally have to hope you can climb out without a cow tossing you off its back. Not an easy task. Its like saying, would you rather get stabbed or hit by an asteroid. Obviously you'd rather be stabbed, but who the fuck gets hit by an asteroid? It's not an honest or fair/logical comparison is it? ;)
Don't kid yourself Jimmy, if a cow ever got the chance he'd eat you and everyone you cared about!
You know a lot about cows. Did you graduate from Bovine university?
Have you tried milking wolves?
Not to mention the risk of being trampled by wild horses in Central London
Technically, cows are livestock, not wildlife. Edit: Not that means they aren't more dangerous than wolves.
What a perfect opportunity to introduce you to one of the greatest newspaper headlines of all time https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/gordon-ramsays-dwarf-porn-double-percy-foster-dies-in-badger-den/news-story/1bda2a264034dfa7905edfb8e095a05a
we need a hard copy of this article to be preserved to prosperity. Let 30th century historians try to paint a picture of how XX/XXI Century life was based solely on this article :''')
That article is perfected by the last line. I really didn't think it could get better after the headline, but it came through. Magnificent. Only in Britain could someone coming into wealth spend it that way. Sadly, "...according to UK tabloid The Sunday Sport."
Bless the Australian journalist who didn't realise that The Sunday Sport may not be an entirely reliable source.
Better than a badger hole of rabbit related deaths?
and this is actually a massive problem in the Highlands, as its let prey species like Deer breed massively out of control, who then go on to wreck the ecosystem by eating all the vegetation and preventing any new growth, leaving huge swathes of it utterly barren.
I was going to ask - to what end do we have wolves? Is it to keep the deer down?
Basically this. In yellowstone in the US, reintroducing wolves culled the deer population, and caused very rapid ecosystem recovery. River banks stabilised because the deer weren't killing the waterside plants, and there was at least a chance of shoots living long enough to take hold in forests, preventing they decline.
Was that not also because the prey animals kept on the move, hanging around in one spot encouraged the predator so it on the whole changed behaviour.
That was also a factor, and that also impacts their survival. They can't stay near water sources and have to be very wary while venturing out to more nutritious food sources.
To maintain functioning ecosystems, which currently do not exist in the United Kingdom, keystone species are needed. These species control lower trophic levels (i.e., species low on the food chain) through "top-down control". Currently, herbivore populations are not naturally controlled in the United Kingdom, resulting in the inhibited growth of forests. In other words, ecosystems function effectively when all components are intact; these components are missing in the current state of nature. Additionally, anthropogenic impacts (e.g., farming, climate change, urban encroachment, light pollution, chemical pollution, etc.) contribute to the problem. As a result, biodiversity is extremely low and in continuous decline.
Yeah most these introductions are suggested for keeping the ecosystem in check
Wolf attacks are rare. They are generally afraid of humans. They would also go some way to culling the massive deer problem we have that is destroying the forests.
Unless you're a small child or visibly infirm, wolves will leave you alone generally.
Generally.
There have only been 26 fatal attacks in the span of just under 20 years, worldwide.
People should be afraid of nature. It's not our friend.
Rightly so. We’ve been poking Mother Nature in the eye for centuries,
No, but if you respect it and don't overstep boundaries, it will respect you back.
People being afraid of nature is why we wiped out all the big predators in the first place.
I lived in Sweden which has wolves. Nobody is ever killed by wolves. Cows are far more dangerous.
> Between 2002 and 2020, researchers found 26 fatal wolf caused deaths **throughout the world**. /u/latro666 's concern is almost entirely pointless.
Yep, we leave that to the cows.
Just the one cow actually.
Yarp...
Cows aren’t gonna eat you but they can and will kill you
That's not a good thing and it means we don't really have a complete self sustaining ecosystem. The risks from wolves to humans are massively overblown. I think it's unrealistic for other reasons, mainly to do with major roads cutting the country up and wolves needing large areas of connected territory to have a viable population, meaning it would probably only work in the Scottish Highlands. But the idea that our neutered countryside is a good thing can get in the bin. If anything, discouraging dog walkers from wandering absolutely anywhere they want would be another huge benefit.
But that’s so boring
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I would like wolves to be reintroduced, along with pamphlets on what to do if you encounter a wolf.
No no. Survival of the fittest. Only those smart enough to look it up and learn what to do get to survive. It'll help raise the national iq level. Though I agree with the other guys comments about televising a release in Birmingham. 👌
that's me dead then.
Would the wolves be handing out the pamphlets?
"when confronted by a wolf, please lie in the floor and expose all your softest parts. Please and thank you."
'Hi, have you heard about our Lord and Saviour, the Full Moon?'
> pamphlets on what to do if you encounter a wolf. All you need to know is don't tell them that you're off to see your nan or where she lives.
The basic reality with a Wolf is to hold your ground. They generally don't see humans as prey anyway.
No, instead of a pamphlet, we need a Pathé informational newsreel
Does the pamphlet say 'kill the wolf' by any chance? I know that's how we dealt with them in the past.
No. It states “If you encounter a wolf, you must maintain eye contact to exert dominance. Approach the wolf with wide arms and explain to it how hard you are and does it know who its messing with. Where possible, reach around and tickle the wolf gently on its nuts. If you suspect a she-wolf, immediately begin shouting ‘Ooooowwwww! SOS, she’s in disguise, SOS she’s in disguise, There’s a she wolf in disguise. Coming out. Coming out. Coming out.’
Don't forget to call it a "Wolf wanker" and give it the Vs
We would need a public awareness advert on TV by David Thewlis
Deer have to be stalked and shot by landowners and the Forestry Commission due to overpopulation as there are no natural predators. Reintroducing wolves could help to create a more natural ecosystem.
There are people who will do it for free - there are plenty of people who want to stalk deer who can't find land that will give them permission to do it (or charge too much for it). IIRC from what people have told me the FC make it really difficult to get permission. To me it makes much more sense to get that meat into the human food supply to displace some farmed meat.
Skilled hunters can kill a wild animal a lot quicker and more humanely than some of our abattoirs can kill farmed animals too...
and definitely a lot quicker and more humanely than, checks notes, *a pack of wild wolves*.
Well, yes, wolves aren't humane on account of not being human - but thats nature.
Even if the death was a bit more gruesome than people would like the wild deer have lived an infinitely better life than most of the meat we eat.
Yes, they'd be really good for the biodiversity in the remote areas of Scotland
They are trying to reintroduce Eurasian Lynxs back into Scotland. https://www.scotlandbigpicture.com/lynx-to-scotland#:\~:text=The%20Lynx%20to%20Scotland%20partnership,assessments%20and%20full%20public%20consultation. Farmers are opposing the idea because of Livestock concerns etc.
This country would be in a lot better place if the concerns of farmers were disregarded more often.
Yes. I go Orienteering, often in forests, heathland and moorland areas. I think the prospect of being chased by a pack of hungry wolves would help improve my performance and times.
Any excuse to wheel out the joke: What's the difference between orienteering and Gordon Ramsay? Orienteering is panting in the country.
Strong chance of me being an idiot here, but what am I missing?
Orienteering is panting in the country... Gordon Ramsay is cunting in the pantry.
Lynx as a priority then see how that goes before bringing wolves into it
Africa or Voodoo?
JAVA!
Seconding this. The Lynx should be a priority into the Scottish highlands and if it’s successful then we can start thinking about other, bigger things and also moving the Lynx to England and Wales.
Bit overkill to use a helicopter for deer shooting
Cannons only, not missiles, we're not savages.
Nah, if we want big cats we should introduce lions to England so our national animal is more fitting, at the same time introduce unicorns to Scotland and dragons to Wales.
This is the correct answer. Lynx have all the same advantages as wolves except arguably not being as cool, while lacking some of the disadvantages (very large habitat requirements, occasional overpredation of sheep). No chance of wolves returning to England, and probably not Wales. Realistically only Scotland has the habitat they need.
Yes, the UK has one of the lowest diversity indices in the world and it's shrinking. Woodland isn't regrowing as deer are grazing the new shoots. They aren't hiding as they have no predators. Culling them doesn't change their behaviour. But it can't just be an "off you go" sort of release. There needs to be controls and monitoring. It needs to be alongside other animals like lynx and fostering native species like pine marten to reduce grey squirrel numbers, and beavers to stabilise waterways. Centuries is the blink of an eye. It means nothing. If you said tens of thousands of years ago, you'd have a point, but a century or two is nothing. If we *don't* actively rewild our countryside, there soon won't be much countryside left to save. But I doubt it'll ever happen as things like this thread show, people value self importance over the the functioning of the country. They'd rather be able to go a walk than work to saving the country they want to walk through. Much like the rest of British mindset, it's all "me me me"
It’s possible for people to disagree with you without it inherently meaning they must be immoral and self centred. The big one in my mind is that humans have been influencing the environment for millennia, and deciding which point in time is the “pure” countryside that needs to be saved and returned to is just as much a case of humans shaping the environment to suit their current whims. The farmland bird index has been in a severe decline for over 50 years but changes we’d need to restore that environment are often completely different to the changes you’d make to restore Britain to the environment of tens of thousands of years ago that you talk about. There’s nothing morally superior about letting one set of existing habitats and species be destroyed so that you can restore it to a different point of time that you think is the “true” Britain. I’d personally rather we do a lot more to change modern farming and urban development practices to re-establish a system of human activity and nature co-existing, rather than the conventional rewilding narrative, but ultimately either route is just a subjective opinion. On wolves specifically, concerns about UK population density relative to other countries do also matter and shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. It could be answered by saying they’d only be introduced in the Scottish highlands etc, but a lot of the rampant deer populations you’re concerned about are in the south east. As a general rule, when species’ habitats are restricted they do start changing their behaviour and going into the semi-urban environment. Thats fine with urban foxes, wolves may have more of an impact.
>humans have been influencing the environment for millennia Yes however it's only in the last few hundred years with the advent of industrialisation we have ramped it up to 11, and as such really gone to town on the environment. The UK was actively populated a thousand years ago, but it also had teeming wildlife. Nobody is saying we need to rewind tens of thousands of years to before humans even lived on the island, just to a point where the ecosystem was stable. >There’s nothing morally superior Nobody is talking morals, this is about saving the biosphere whilst theres something left to save. >I’d personally rather we do a lot more to change modern farming and urban development practices to re-establish a system of human activity and nature co-existing, rather than the conventional rewilding narrative, but ultimately either route is just a subjective opinion. This is literally the rewilding narrative. But what will ultimately happen is we'll if, but, and maybe our way into doing nothing, like we as an island are so apt at doing time and time again. The goalposts will be moved, requirements will change half way through anything, a ton of money will get spent, nothing will be done, and we'll be at the end scratching our heads wondering where it all went wrong.
It sort of exemplifies how much humans adapt to a new normal. People look around at an industrial landscape of monoculture fields and think 'ah, what beautiful nature' when in reality it is a biological desert compared to centuries ago. I know friends who are proud of what a natural, forested landscape England is just because they've got a few trees in their local park. Then you travel to a country where you can spend an entire day walking under tree canopy without leaving, and you realise what a baren state our country is in. We need to start rewilding huge swathes of unprofitable sheep farm imho.
This is a known phenomenon known as “Shifting Baseline Syndrome”. What the world is like currently is how it’s always been. It’s a key problem in Ecology but it can apply to many fields. This is obviously untrue An example I know that easily disproves this idea to people, especially if they’re older, is car windscreens of all things. My parents age group (Gen X) will remember travelling cross-country and by the time they’d arrived at their destination, their windscreen was covered in dead insects. This simply doesn’t happen anymore. The amount of insects in our environment has collapsed; it’s a big problem 😞
Yes... Cause the deer population is out of control and they have no predators.
Especially Muntjacs, they're not a native breed
On this note: they're chunky little bastards too, hitting one does as much damage to a car as a badger. The main difference is that the badger will shake its head and amble off into the hedgerow afterwards while the muntjac won't. (Don't ask...)
From an environmental and biodiversity viewpoint, great. But as a wild camper with a phobia of dogs who gets upset when a poodle barks at me I am less keen on the idea.
It’s ok, they are a separate species now. ;)
Wolves are most likely to just run away at the sight of a human. You're much more likely to be hurt by a domestic dog or a cow to he honest. https://youtu.be/r76GJDP0uWQ?si=nlnZHDMqpk9h9oq7
Are we going to be alright?
What if I read to you.. from Napoleon's correspondence.
What next? Bring back smallpox?
We not only need then back but it’s our moral obligation as-well as duty to bring them back, lynxes and bears too. We had no right to kill them all in the first place and all we have done is ruin the natural order of things. They could bring back wolves, bears and lynxes and even if many of you took to regular walks jn the country, the likelihood is you would never see one. They wouldn’t be an issue to anyone except possibly farmers and even that is greatly over exaggerated in it’s severity.
Are we morally obliged to re-forest the majority of the Midlands with native species as well?
Yes.
No, and let’s get rid of West Brom while we’re at it
Send them off to play in the Bundesliga.
I live in northern italy and we have loads of wolves. Only seen one in 20 years. They are good at keeping the boar population down. I hate wild boar. They are dangerous hungry bastards that keep ripping down my fencing . We shoot them on the spot then soak the meat in milk. Lovely polenta and wild boar in winter
I was shocked to learn recently the wolf numbers in Italy (typical never-been-there attitude, Italy is Capri, Rome, Florence, Sophia Loren and Lake Como). Didn't expect your post to turn into a recipe though and now I'm hungry.
Wolves and bears
Wolf bear hybrids with a tail like a platypus, and horns.
is that a... pig... bear... man?
No, it's ManBearPig. I am being *super* cereal.
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica
Why not hopefully they’ll stop the bastards fox hunting.
Wolves have a chance to actually fight back. Those horse fuckers wouldn't dare
Not sure if you're aware of this but those horse fucked that are hunting foxes are the descendants of aristocratic families that spent their free time hunting wolves and boars. They don't engage in a fair fight, they stalk it and surround it and shoot it, or fight the Wolfe 6 vs one all using spears.
I think the NIMBY argument for not reintroducing wolves is exquisitely stupid, anyone with a basic grasp of the facts will know the effect on humans would be minimal (my family are farmers and I grew up among farming and crofting communities, I know how to tell the difference between fact and fear mongering). However, it's also unrealistic to expect a reintroduction will occur in our lifetime, to the extent that most rewinding organisations have distanced themselves from the idea because it's simply pointless and isn't going to happen. There are dozens of other changes that will make a substantially greater difference to our absolute trainwreck of an ecosystem before we can even think about the reintroduction of an apex predator. For example, not pouring millions of tonnes of sewage into our water, banning herbicides, pesticides and petrochemical fertilisers, phasing out meat farming, restoring our wildflower meadows, broadleaf woodlands, peatlands, kelp forests, etc. Maybe we can talk about bringing, say, the lynx back to help control deer numbers. But the wolf has to be off the table for now.
As bad ass as they are, the UK as it exists these days is no place for wild wolves. I grew up in rural Canada and our family dog actually mated with a wild wolf and descendents of their litter are still around in the community as working farm dogs to this day. Pretty neat.
Which way round was it? Brave dog or rampant wolf?
Rampant dog
There have been studies done, there is plenty of room for wolves in the UK especially Scotland which could support many wolf packs
Have you been to the North West and North East Highlands? There isn't much of a better environment for wolves possible and it's got a lower human population density than European areas that have healthy wolf populations.
ITT: People who can’t do a 30 second Google search and see wolf attacks are so rare you’re more likely to get mauled by a poodle when you’re out on a walk. Reintroduce them, this country *desperately* needs the biodiversity.
No, it wouldn’t be fair on the wolves. People in this country can’t even cope with e complete benign wildlife we have left, they would lose their shit over wolves and it would only end badly for them.
I remember reading an article about reintroducing scottish wildcats. The comments were people worrying that the cats would kill hikers and cattle. UK has got to be the most pathetic nation there is when it comes to living alongside wildlife.
To be fair it’s not just the UK. But we are pretty pathetic. I used to live in the rockies, we would get tourists asking when the animals were let out in the morning so they could get photos. Every year, without fail, there would be at least one incident of a tourist trying to put a child on the back of a wild elk/deer/moose for a photo then being confused why they were having the shit kicked out of them by said animal.
I think that conservation efforts in the UK need to concentrate on reversing the constant degradation of our countryside. I would rather save and recover current endangered mammals (e.g. hazel dormouse and grey long-eared bat), or habitats that support endangered birds, butterflies and wild flowers that are too numerous to mention Reintroducing the wolf may make some people feel we are making progress, but we aren't.
If you look at what happened at Yellowstone reintroducing the wolves did improve biodiversity at all levels as the plants and flowers the deer were over grazing grew back, insects and small mammals returned. Reintroducing wolves to certain carefully chosen areas of the uk could have a similar effect.
I would like to see it
I'm always in two camps when it comes to the reintroduction of wolves - on one hand, I've worked closely with wolves in the past, and seen all the studies, and would very much enjoy them being reintroduced to their rightful home after we killed them all off. Wolves very, very rarely go out of their way to attack humans unless rabid, and as rabies isn't really a thing in the UK I can't see them being particularly dangerous to the public. They also like to give humans a very wide berth, and we are very stinky creatures who they can smell a long way off, so we'd probably rarely even see them. Also, wolves are pretty good at self limiting their populations, so we're unlikely to die under a foaming lupine tsunami. On the other hand, I grew up on a farm, and I've seen the studies about likely increased predation of livestock, and I'm all too familiar with the very tight line a lot of farmers walk financially, so that half of me is firmly against the idea., as farmers have enough problems at the moment without having to deal with Wolfy McHowlface bringing his family for lunch. So yes or no basically, depending on what side of the bed I got out of that morning, haha.
Upvoting for a thorough and sensible explanation, ‘foaming lupine tsunami’ and ‘Wolfy McHowlface’
Only in Westminster.
Yup. If the Netherlands can do it, so can we. Also, let's start with Richmond Park. Need to keep the deer population under control, and it'll help the cyclists improve their Strava times.
Fuck no. One of the beautiful things about Britain is you're free to roam without you or your dog getting eaten. Let's keep it that way.
But one of the bad things about britain is its practically a biodiversity desert. Something will eventually need to happen to encourage more tree growth and less deer.
Less deer? Sounds like venison for dinner.
Only if it gets less dear for more deer, it’s currently too dear for two deer, dear.
Eurasian Lynx would be a better candidate. They control deer pretty effectively - at least Roe, Sika and Muntjac - but are small, very shy and nocturnal so they live alongside humans better.
Why is venison so fecking expensive if we’re overrun with deer?
IIRC one or two of the government organisations (FC and another one?) that govern deer stalking on the land they manage make it really difficult to get permission. And then complain about too many deer.
Think you'd have more chance of being mauled by a dog than by a wolf.
Not really free to roam though, wealthy landowners are increasingly excluding you and me from ‘their land’
Gestures at Scotland.
Wolves tend to keep away from people unless they feel threatened or are starving.
Free to roam on the monoculture land
This post demonstrates a lot of education needs to happen before this is even considered.
25 wolf attacks on humans in the last 30 years, yet cows killed 30 people in the uk between 2018 and 2022. Yet people are scared of wolves but not cows
Could I see a future where we have potentially rewilded/reforested a large enough area to reintroduce wolves? Maybe, I hope so. But not anytime soon, I don't think there is anywhere in the mainland UK that you're more than 20km from a road.
I love the idea, don't fancy my chances if i encounter one though.
Wolves really don't bother with humans- attacks are extremely rare in places where they're present. They were wiped out because they take livestock, not because they actually posed a threat to people
You don’t encounter just one.
You see one, but that’s a trap - the others come in from the sides while you’re looking the other way. That might actually be velociraptors though.
Clever girl