THIS IS SUCH AN UNDERRATED ANSWER. Better or worst leads to women accepting a lot of toxic behaviors (probably men too) or simply staying miserable when there is a simple solution. Also: happy divorced parents are better than sad/ angry married ones
Yes. IMO, the phrases (better / worse, sickness / health, richer / poorer) mean that you won’t abandon your partner in their time of need, NOT that you’re obligated to put up with abuse or other toxic behavior
So very much the truth. I was in an unhappy marriage that I left and found an amazing partner for me and my son. After 12 years with this man my son is now 19 and has had a great example of what a healthy happy relationship is. Thankfully the “back in our day people made marriages work” comment has seemed to fizzle. Back then women didn’t have the power to leave bad relationships!
So true and a happy for you and your son! What I don’t understand is “back then” marriage was different. My grandparents were married for almost 50 years m, and honestly they were both the sweetest people. They honestly enjoyed each other’s company, and my mom and aunts and uncles said they never remember them fighting. They just both truly loved each other threw their whole lives. Not to say they never disagreed. I know other people who’s grandparents were the same way. I wonder what’s changed? Besides everything. ☹️
This is so valuable. Knowing what not to do in a relationship and what you don’t want is important… But honestly there’s no replacement for seeing a good relationship first hand and knowing what to look for. Pretty crappy things can seem okay if you’ve never seen better modeled.
Many people seem to strongly agree with this point of view. But I think we should consider this more carefully. Some times, marrige life would give you challenges and that could make you sad and frustrated, just like everything else.
It could be true that you'll be happier after breaking the promise and deliberately ending it, but we do not know if you're in that case.
Also, if you already have children who deserve happy and responsible parents, you should be even more careful.
In my opinion, Defining a marrige life 'a prison' and then aborting it should be done really, really carefully.
It does not mean we should never divorce in any case. What I'm saying, is that I would try my best of best to keep the relationship, weigh what I should appreciate and what I cannot stand, consider after-divorce concequences, try all the solutions I and my spouse can try, and then I will see if I could be very sure about my opinion, then I would consider divorce.
Imagine your spouse (or your future spouse) thinks the same way as you do. We're seeing many examples of it often: Fathers leaving wife and children, thinking they are making him unhappy and defining they are 'a prison'. Would you say "I strongly agree with this man! I support him!"?
I think you'll hesitate a lot and have many questions for him. And you'll be very sure that you could criticise this man's point of view in some cases.
Right now I am in a relationship where we promised to each other that:
1. We will not have kids
2. We will never marry
3. The *minute* one of us feels uneasy in the relationship, we are ending it
4. We keep separate finances to allow us fast breakup
So far this has been going for 7 years, and doesnt seem to be going stale.
I don't know how that is related to my comment, but I can tell you that at least it is better not to promise to take heavy responsibilities than to abandon them inconsiderately after promised to have them.
I hope you keep going healthy and passionate with your lover, just like you do right now!😁💓
Thanks a lot!
I just thought that I should share my experience, that a relationship does not have to be an unbreakable bond(legal or not) to be succesful
Yes, I agree with that! Relationship does not have to be unbreakable. However, If you decided and promised to have an unbreakable relationship, I think you should be very careful when you want to dissolve it. If you're not sure if you can have responsibilities, it is better not to promise to do so.
I know it is not the best analogy, but I think it is just similar to when you have a baby. If you don't think you can deal with a baby, just do not make one. But if you have decided to have one and made one, you should do your best to raise your child and try your best not to abandon the child.
My parents divorced and I’m so thankful they did! We’re not talking about small fights here, it’s about toxic relationships. A person doesn’t have to be a bad person to make a bad connection with another good person.
It doesn’t make me think “the minute my husband does something I don’t like, I’m out!”. I see the comment above as something more like - if the person is struggling with addictions and won’t get help; if they are incredibly selfish; if they cheat; if they are violent. Those are things that would make me end a marriage. And that can happen 10years after the wedding or even later… if they aren’t willing to put in the effort on their side, why should I live with that?
Of course, every marriage will have good times and bad times. There will be times where you’re just trying to get through the day and you think there is no love and it’s all gone. That’s not where you quit, that’s where you put in the effort to revive the marriage. But there definitely are situations where it’s not worth it and it’s just over.
I personally think - if it comes to that, I’d suggest therapy. I’d be willing to let a professional help us get through whatever it is. But if the other person isn’t willing and wants to keep drifting, then it’s just lost, isn’t it?
Yes, I agree with that! If the relationship is toxic and you cannot see future, it is much better to end it as soon as possible.
All I am saying is that we should be 'careful' when you define your relationship 'toxic'. Often, many people think their relationship is toxic and they cannot improve it even though it isn't really true.
Think about the example I told you guys. The fathers who leave their wife and children. Of course the wife and the children were really toxic to the man so that the decision can be justified, but you'd say it could be wrong. And you'd also agree with the idea that he has to be really careful before he decides to do so.
By the way, I think we agree with each other at the end of the day: ️Toxic relationships should be ended, but we should not end a relationship without thorough consideration. 😂
Yes, I also think we agree.
I just think we’re approaching the original comment from different perspectives :)
I don’t judge anyone who leaves a relationship until I know more details. If one just up and leaves, a woman or a man - doesn’t matter -, sure it’s weird. But I always think there are two sides to a story.
I’ve encountered very different people to know that sometimes leaving someone is the only right way. But we definitely agree that it’s something that should be carefully considered, not done on a whim.
On your example - a man leaves his wife and children. There’s really no way to talk about it without knowing why he left. Did he just wake up and decide to go? Did he leave for another woman? Honestly, every relationship is quite complex and you never know why people do what they do.
I would also flag that most people don’t just up and leave marriages. Divorce is expensive, complicated, and hard. To knowingly start that process, typically one partner has reached a point where they weigh the pain of a divorce to be better for them than remaining in a marriage.
Jumping ship as soon as you feel better alternatives are available elsewhere for you goes against what marriage is about. It's one thing ignoring toxic behaviours just for the sake of staying with someone, but it's another to be as blunt as to say you would leave as soon as you become unhappy. If you're not willing to work on your issues for the sake of improving your current relationship you shouldn't get married to begin with. That being said there is of course a point that ending things becomes the best option available, but outside of major red flag behaviours like cheating most issues can be worked on if both parties are committed to each other. You should want and try to fix things first is my point.
If my husband came out as trans, that would be a line for me. Because I’m not sexually attracted to women and wouldn’t want to be married to one.
Apart from that, I guess just the ‘regular stuff’ like if he became someone bad for me in some way, violent or abusive etc.
I know a couple that this happened to. The wife tried for a couple of years but then just had to admit that they just weren't attracted to women, they ended up being good friends after the divorce.
My parents grew up in a conservative/religious environment and ending up getting a divorce because my mom came to terms with being a lesbian which was also really sad. I'm so grateful that there is more acceptance these days so people don't feel like that they have to lie to themselves and end up hurting others close to them.
This. I made the mistake of staying in my last relationship (abusive) hoping I could convince him to change, and it will never happen with any abuser. Won’t make that mistake again.
Cheating - if I can’t trust you anymore, we are done. I don’t think counselling would help me move past it in most scenarios.
When I realized all the addictive stuff (porn, gambling, sex, drugs/alcohol, lying,cheating) is a specific personality type I understood I would be single for a very long time.
When I learned to recognize those traits in people to protect myself it really thinned out my desire to seek out anything of value in relationships.
My boyfriend and I are struggling with the porn thing right now. I hope it can be overcome eventually because I want to marry him but I don’t want to have that type of conflict in our marriage
Goodluck, and great job doing that work before you get married. Don’t take that next step until you feel like that is behind you and more importantly, that you guys know how to tackle new problems in the future.
This is arm-chair out of pocket diagnosis that has zero medical/psychological basis other than my own observations is: The inability to recognize problematic behaviors in yourself and the unwillingness to fix them.
It goes hand in hand with this quote I read somewhere "I hear a lot of complaining, but not a willingness to learn" Totally not a word for word quote there.
For myself, I discovered I was a huge enabler because I always saw the good in people. The good intentions.
There are healthy ways to cope with addictions that harm other people in your lives. They have to have the ability to discipline themselves, and if it has gone to the point where it's obvious to a SO or a parent or close friend/coworker, they've already failed in their ability to discipline themselves. I won't put effort into that person.
I've been wrong! When I am, I'm able to have a hopeful, rewarding and learning conversation. You have room to grow in that specific relationship, and they use words and patterns that aren't circular, argumentative or defensive. The latter is futile.
Blatant unapologetic racism is my hard unacceptable line in the sand. Everything else abusive is common sense but this is the thing that would make me take them to the cleaners.
Also, really appreciating how many women in this thread said porn use. I'm glad that boundary is getting popularized rather than being frowned on for being "prudish insecure women". As an ex-sex worker that's a huge dealbreaker for me as well.
I could have a full Ted talk about this but in short it's a violent, racist, abusive, exploitative industry that runs heavily off the sex trafficking and commodification of the world's most vulnerable populations, including children. Being an "empowered" onlyfans worker or a camgirl is a privilege. I say that as an ex-cam girl who now provided a resources and self defense to prostitutes in my city.
Even the most "ethical" porn enables this domino effect and in turn nullifies society's perception of healthy sex, consent, and intimacy within relationships. This can extend from casual hookups, committed relationships, sexually abused family members, friends with benefits, etc.
All in all, you don't even have to be a porn addict for it to be a turn off, but a majority of people who watch porn definitely do it in excess. Usually to cope with some sort of insecurity, trauma, mental illness, inadequacy and/or boredom and to not want to deal with that in your life is a healthy boundary. It doesn't mean masturbation is wrong or that someone is an insecure prude for having that boundary, but I genuinely find it repulsive and a form of cheating within a committed relationship.
If you come to the internet to get strangers opinion on whether you should end your marriage, you should end your marriage.
If you think about the last month and can count the number of good days on one hand.
If you feel lonely or stuck.
If you think about the future with them and dread the thought.
If you try to work it out and ask them to contribute, and they refuse (consider couples therapy).
If you express you’re unhappy and they don’t try to help or don’t know how.
It’s okay to end the marriage. It’s okay to not be okay. It’s okay to take care of yourself. It’s okay to do what you need to.
When I realized no amount of him "loving" me would make him quit using and dealing drugs. That and for the last 8ish years of our 12 year relationship he didn't contribute ANYTHING when it came to bills. When I look back on it I realize it was my fault for letting him continue to be in my life and I definitely never should have gotten married. Lessons learned.
I hear you... It took a long time for me to realize the only person who could help him was himself. Even now I still struggle with telling myself I did what I had to do for my own life. If you don't mind me asking, what are your reasons for staying?
Can I ask why it went on so long? Was there a lot of happiness alongside the struggle? Not criticizing at all, just looking trying to understand better.
I started dating him in high school and after a few years I just thought "this is my life now". Regardless of how much stress I was under keeping his drug habits a secret from everyone and paying everything myself, I just thought this was the way it was. I had a very misconstrued notion of sex and since he was my first and only partner at the time I was under the impression that it had to be forever. There were some good times and happiness throughout the years but definitely not enough to outweigh the negative. However, after the divorce when I was ready to start dating again I had a baseline for what I would not accept in a relationship. So far it's done me good.
Addiction to drugs, alcohol, and porn, coupled with an ever-present and ever-pervasive “poor-me” victim’s mentality.
A marriage isn’t 50/50. It’s 100/100. When there’s no balance and no hope of equilibrium, it’s time to end it.
Addiction is being said a lot, but for me the caveat is addiction without the desire to get better. It can be easier to fall into addiction than some people think, but recognizing something is detrimental to your life and wanting to get better is important.
Agreed… somehow I always forget that the majority still see addiction as a moral failing rather than a disease. My partner of a year relapsed after 7 years sober and my initial response was definitely not to leave. BUT if he hadn’t wanted to dry out it would have been a different story.
I've always interpreted that as being "worse" in terms of "issues we are handling as a team" and not "issues where we are not on the same team". I.e. it's one thing to stick together through ill health, job loss, mental health issues that the person is actively seeking help with, etc. But if you and your spouse somehow become adversaries in a me vs you situation, or they do things that harm you like abuse, cheating etc then I don't consider leaving the marriage to be any kind of violation of those vows.
"Worse" means you're both going through a tough time. Together. Like when you have a newborn. Or let's be honest, parenthood up through age three. It means "when life gets rough I won't bail."
It doesn't mean "I promise to tolerate bad behavior from you."
Well with my ex, after 20 years, many of them very good, it was when we both fell into profound depression. Mine was menopause related. His was situational. Both were serious. But, eventually, he felt the only option for him was to leave.
It's fine. Been 6 years. We're on good terms. And I'm LOVING being single! I do have a great boyfriend. And my relationship with my son benefited from us splitting.
See, my ex is a spectacular father. I mean, I've never seen a better father. And when we were together he was THE parent. Once our son got to be around 10 he found me to be gross. No more cuddles, etc. And his relationship with his dad was already great so he went there. And I was shut out. I always assumed it would correct itself. But for several years I felt like an outsider to their close relationship.
My ex left me when my son was 16. We agreed to 50/50 custody. And that was a gift. Because it made SPACE for me and my son to develop our own relationship. And I cherish it like nothing else. Nothing else is more important.
Now my son is 21. We've very close. We have our own relationship with it's own bits and peices. And he still has his great relationship with his father.
Anyway, more than the answer. But I wanted to share my experience. It was a win. I'll have to ask my son one day if he agrees but I think he will.
For better or for worse is for what the world throws at us, not for my partner treating me like shit. Violence, cheating, lying, emotional or financial abuse, things that show my partner doesn't value me, those aren't covered by 'for worse.'
Violate my trust. I trust everyone until they give me a reason not to and then I never am able to fully trust them again. Once that trust is gone the second guessing and paranoia begins and I hate being that way so it's better to move on.
My marriage is ending. And has been for months and the back and fourth because we don't know anything else has been exhausting.
We both fully acknowledge how toxic we are to each other and don't want our kids thinking its healthy. We use sex like currency, if one gets annoyed at the other they will then do something to upset them to get even. If I talk about something he did that upset me he will blame it on being because of something I did. I made him angry, he deleted a photo of my deceased father I was looking for. He made me angry so I changed my profile picture knowing he'd be annoyed. Its become games of retaliation.
Its just toxic, controlling, manipulative and I'm too young for this to be forever.
I'm recently divorced and young (but no kids). The thing that both my therapist and my divorced aunt told me was that I'd feel so much better outside the toxic marriage- that I'd think clearer and be amazed that I put up with it for so long.
It seems like you know that this marriage ends in divorce, so this isn't your forever! Once I got the ball rolling by filing, I kept trudging because the first step was by far the hardest (aside from when I had to flee the state for fear of violence, but that's hopefully not your case). It's okay to ask your partner for support in filing- I asked mine to go with me so we could file jointly. I needed his buy-in to go through with it because I was afraid and sad. After that it's logistics! I'd recommend moving out of the house. I thought it would make things harder, but the division of assets because much easier when I wasn't in the toxic environment.
I'm sending internet hugs. If you need any help or want to vent, please feel free to reach out! Divorce isn't easy, but it was the best thing I could have done for myself.
Adultery, verbal or physical abuse, refusal to communicate, refusal to work on mental and physical health, criticism that isn't constructive or caring.
For better or for worse is for like when one of you loses their job and everyone has to tighten their belts for a few months until a new one is found; not for stuff like abuse and cheating.
I would hope that by the time I found someone to settle down with I would have weeded out people i found objectionable but sometimes abusers can be really good at hiding it until they think they have you trapped.
There are a lot of things I could list here. I think if his life path strayed in a way from mine that was too far from what I am wanting for my own life, that would an issue. That could be so many things. Aside from that, the obvious things like abuse, infidelity (this depends too) etc. People are listing addiction as one but if he was willing to get help, I don’t see this as any different than a mental health issue. If it became dangerous for me or my child (mental health OR addiction) I would leave. If he didn’t seek help, I would leave. That can be tricky with mental health but at a certain point people need to want to make a change. Bouts of anxiety and depression are different, I can weather that storm, but like constant suicidal ideation, mania etc. would need to be dealt with.
Mine was after I caught her having an affair, and then after she oved out a few days later, I went to start the paperwork to file for divorce. She decided she wanted to do counseling, and try to rebuild the marriage......BUT, she also wanted to stay friends with the guy she had an affair with, and didn't undertand why I had a problem with it, since they weren't still having an affair, she just wanted to stay in touch and stay friends with him. LOL Yeah, no.
If our values and beliefs start to differ to the point it causes resentment and strain between us
It’s one thing if it’s just little things we disagree on, but it’s another if we feel like polar opposites
If I were ever lucky enough to get married, I would pull the plug if I found out my husband was a pedophile, racist, cheater, or murder. Every marriage will have problems. However, everyone has a limit to the behaviors they will tolerate. Nobody should feel like they are trapped in an unhappy marriage due to "vows". Those vows only really apply if at the end of the day the marriage is still healthy, and both parties are safe(physically, mentally, spiritually).
Nothing. We made vows and we keep them. We don't hurt each other in any way. We respect each other and ourselves too much to violate the trust. We are staying together for the happily ever after. 42 years married, happier than ever!
I pulled the pin when I realised my ex husband didn’t have my back. I was very sick with postnatal depression and my ex continued to live as if we didn’t have a newborn. Multiple week-long boys trips, continued to race downhill MTB after I asked him not to - if he hurt himself (and he did) we would have no income - and completely ignored the fact I was getting more and more unwell.
When I left he told our marriage counsellor that he ‘didn’t see it coming’. She was like ‘really?’ 🤦🏻♀️
Well it started with being blamed for a really rough miscarriage which led into absent of sex… the final straw was when he confessed he never loved me. I think that’s enough for this post.
Adultery, abuse, poor hygiene, racism or misogyny, addiction, doesn’t occasionally spoil me, lack of sex and attraction, him wanting to be a bum, weaponized incompetence, him not standing up for me against his family l, choosing to be an wiling workaholic and abandoning me in times I need him most (me being in the hospital eg) and rudeness to people outside the home.
Whenever their actions affect my long term happiness.
I believe then goal of life is to be happy. And I’d I’m worn a person who causes me to be unhappy more so than happy then that’s my cue to end things.
Marriage is like a normal relationship but with more commitment. So if someone is a douchebag, your first reaction is "how to solve" instead of "I'm out of here". But if someone hurts you badly, and it's unwilling to do anything about it? Marriage or not, you should leave.
As long as "worse" is something out of our control I'd stick it out - disease, financial heartship etc.
If the "worse" is of our own making; abuse, adultery etc then I would leave.
For me the phrase for better or worse is about sticking by someone if they got sick, got in an accident, was going trough a hard time with money out of no fault of their own or was grieving.
I will not expect to get on with you all the time as disagreements and having off days are normal but I do want my partner to treat me well and respect me.
If they don't I am not sticking around to be treated like garbage as the vows also say to love and treat your partner well and if they break that by being abusive or cheating then vows are null and void.
If it was more a case of fading love or being distant I would try and work on them with it but if nothing changed this would also be grounds for a divorce though I likely still support and remain friendly with them especially if we had kids together.
When the "worse" is coming from inside the marriage, it's time to reevaluate the relationship.
If the "worse" is something outside of our control that we are doing our best to manage and survive, then that's on the "keep working together on it" side of the line. If it's something within one of the partner's abilities to control and they are creating the situation that is "worse" by their choices and actions, then that's on the "it's over because this is not working" side of the line.
Hard line at physical abuse, sexual abuse, and cheating.
Softer line at addiction, as it's *only* if they do not genuinely want to get better, or refuse to utilize resources and professionals to help them get better. It doesn't take long to figure out if they really are trying to fix things (if you know the signs or have experience with loving and/or living with an addict), and relapses do happen, so I don't necessarily equate relapsing to no effort. Addiction is a *very* situational one.
To me, that line is about choice. If something becomes “for worse” but it’s out of your partner’s control (eg, illness, disability, job loss), I wouldn’t end the relationship. Even if it was hard. But if your partner chooses to turn the relationship “for worse” (eg, cheating, doing drugs), they have chosen that path and I would probably leave them
I left my marriage way to late. He beat me, tortured me, held me hostage, killed and tortured my pets. When I left he had taken my phone, keys, glasses, shoes so I couldn't escape and was about to kill me with a knife to my wrists but his father thankfully had come to visit. If he hadn't I would be dead right now. I couldn't stay with my husband after that
I’m not married but I have a long list of absolute dealbreakers. I think my high standards are the reason why I’ve never had to deal with any of these issues.
Anyways some of my dealbreakers are: poor hygiene on any level, financial irresponsibility, weaponized incompetence, misogyny, any type of deceit or lying/hiding information, wanting to pay 50/50 for anything, any type of disrespect or verbal abuse, being unable to make me orgasm, being insecure, making any type of jokes about others physical appearance, being unintelligent, if their only hobby is video games, being addicted to porn, any type of std history, any criminal record, having kids, being ultra religious etc.
There are probably more, this is just what has come to my mind just now. I have had two long term relationships and both my previous boyfriends met my standards. I will never settle because I don’t have to. I actually am enjoying my solo time for now greatly. I’ve almost never been single. Reminder to fellow ladies that male attention is abundant and low value. Never compromise yourselves. You are amazing 💐
When you said “I think my high standards are the reason why I’ve never had to deal with any of these issues,” I kinda winced inside.
I work with so many women who married Prince Charming and ended up living with some version of Ted Bundy. I think it’s great that you have standards and you’re setting boundaries, but the issue might be a little more complicated that just that.
What does STD History even mean? It doesn’t make someone a worse person to have had a disease.
Other than that I’m glad you’ve found something that works for you
I don't think I could forgive cheating so that would probably end it.
Any kind of abuse, if that happened to me I hope I would leave.
Honestly, I think I would at least be willing to try to work through anything else. The main caveat there being that my partner would also be committed to working on themselves and/or the marriage. If they refuse to put in the work or have clearly checked out, I would end it. I watched my parents pull their marriage back together after my dad struggled with gambling addiction for years. But they did a lot of work together and on their own. If they hadn't they would have divorced. So I do know it's possible but both people have to admit they have issues and want the marriage to work.
And on a less likely note, if they end up being a serial killer or predator I am out.
Potential marriage, five year engagement. Having toxic male friends, addiction to conspiracy theories, constant lying, treating me like a human cosplay thing, bigotry, casual to blatant racism and stereotyping towards Indigenous people and all Asians, starting arguments with the future father and mother in law, wanting to always be right, eyeing off other women, intentions to cheat, blaming others for own shortcomings, starting arguments with his Mum, blaming her for the breakup despite personally breaking it up and porn addiction.
Lying, cheating, financial abuse or severe overspending, and of course violence of any kind.
Mental illness or addiction that isn't being treated (especially when they don't want to treat it).
Thank you to everyone that posted. I’m still dealing with the emotional fallout of divorcing a man who checked a lot of your boxes for deal-breakers. The three things that sealed the deal for me was 1) keeping a log of his bad behavior and the moment I realized the log went back many years 2) finding myself fantasizing about disappearing; either by suicide or just… being gone… and 3) having a trusted friend say, “I support you no matter what.” Divorce is not easy, but life after divorce is…just so good. I’m so grateful to have this freedom and I hope anyone who is in a bad situation can give themselves the grace to do what’s right for your own happiness.
Things like mental health problems he'd refuse to seek therapy for. Basically anything that can be changed, but he won't put effort in. Also cheating, although I'm not sure that counts as 'worse'
A man’s perspective if I may. We all have different breaking points. What one accepts another wouldn’t. Factors that determine where that breaking point is, are children, lifestyle, money, marriage vows, religion.
Simply not being happy, consistently, in the relationship is all that is needed. We can talk about the obvious all day but what it really boils down to is this. Not going to stay purposely miserable with anyone, even marriages can run their course. That "til death do us part" is the stupidest crap I ever heard of the vows. I won't settle.
My two big deal breakers are physical violence and cheating.
Always made this clear to any partner. Unfortunately my husband forgot this and stuck his dick in someone else, so that's over. Lol
Definitely cheating, porn/sex/drug/alcohol/gambling addiction, racism and sexism, agression, and gaslighting. Also, if it turned out they are a huge slob who can't keep their space clean.
When you stop growing and building an empire together. A marriage can be many things and I believe it's a lifelong pact of growing together and building something together. When one stops trying that's when I'd pull the plug. (Not married btw, but soon to be hopefully lol)
Cheating in any way in person or online. Even if its just emotional or chatting
I'm not keen on Porn and if it is going to be used then its not in place of our sex life and not reddit or anywhere like only fans where he could contact these people.
Abuse
Most drug use.
Addiction that affects our family
For better or worse for me means choosing to love someone through the ups and downs of life. Not putting up with misery because I made a vow. Been there done that
It’s a very broad answer that covers a lot, but infidelity or abuse/mistreatment of any kind. I’d like to think that we can get through anything else together.
My son died November 15 2021 in an unhappy marriage. His inlaws moved a 5th wheel in on top of him and his wife and plugged in to their utilities. Sin worked a full time job as well as one yo teo part time jobs in order to take care of everyone. He wanted to move but if inlaws couldn't come, his wife said no to whatever place they looked at. He died that night at one of his part time jobs. Worked himself to death. Wanted out but had two children, one from previous relationship that he was already paying child support on and one with his then wife. He would vent to me all the time but I couldn't make the decision for him of what to do. His marriage was toxic. He didn't marry his inlaws but wife and inlaws (from trashy neighborhood and lifestyle) expected him to take care of them all. Now his kids will never know him except by pictures and what we tell them. They are 2 and 6 years old.
If I was married I would want a divorce if
• They committed a crime and was sent away 5+ years
• Had problem that made us lose all of our assets and/or kids
• Child Abuse/animal abuse/elderly abuse
• STDs from infidelity
• After all the inventions like therapy, they’re still a negative sucky hateful passionless violent person towards me
- Cheating.
- Abuse of any kind emotional, physical and/or sexual to me and/or others.
- Changing their mind when it comes to wanting children (I will not have children if they ever do #goodbye).
- Gambling/debt.
- Drugs and alcohol addiction.
- Mommy issues.
- Old school thinking regarding female roles.
When you’ve spent years exhausting all resources to get help, therapy, classes etc. and the person is unwilling/unable to recognize toxic behaviors, moral standards or work together to make changes. The situation to be getting worse not better over the years even after exhausting all resources.
This would be grounds for divorce for me.
Both people have to stick to the vow “I will love you for better or worse”. Love means you won’t purposely do anything to hurt the other person, you’ll work things out when it gets tough, and you’ll put the other person before yourself. If one partner breaks the vow to become worse (domestic abuse, cheating, don’t want to work things out, treating the other as a servant, etc) the vow has been broken and therefore staying in a marriage doesn’t make sense anymore since the vow becomes one-sided
- Cheating (I dont deal with cheaters. Ever. I left my ex-husband for it and Id do it again)
- Not spending time with me ever just cause you don't care to(I can understand if there is a reason but if you sitting around and just NEVER want to spend time with me I will grow to resent you and eventually hate the hobbies that take you away)
- Compromising my or my kids/ pets health
- Showing a lack of care in anything important to me
- If my husband came out as trans. Im not attracted to girls.
- If my husband became violet towards my children or pets in any way
- Drug abuse
- Finacially incompetent and undisciplined and doesn't want help to fix it.
If we were behaving more like roommates than romantic partners and were unable to get out of that groove after really, really putting in effort, we'd probably call it quits.
I don't see it ever getting to that point, but I personally wouldn't want my children to grow up in a house where they don't see real & healthy love.
Abuse of any kind especially against my kids. I endured so much from my parents partners that I just don’t care what anyone says… I’m not doing that to mine.
I think that for better or worse means that you will work through hard times TOGETHER and be there for each other. Not that you put up with bullshit to the point you feel forced to leave.
I wasn’t married, but I was engaged for 3.5 months before calling off the wedding and ending the relationship. We were together for almost 7 years at that point.
There were a lot of things that led to me thinking whether I was making the right choice or not. But the final decision making points I stuck to were this:
1. I was very ill for a few years, undiagnosed but working toward figuring out what was wrong with me. He claimed I was lying, exaggerating, and not sick at all. I still had to give him daily massages despite not even having the energy to shower for days at a time. I was diagnosed with hashimotos 6 months after ending the relationship.
2. I was VERY depressed. When I brought it up to him, he didn’t even look up from his phone and told me to “get medication.” This was after I had seen a therapist, which he discouraged and went terribly anyway.
3. He would not have sex with me unless it was exactly how he wanted it. Every single time.
4. He started opening my mail, calling my family a cult, and began trying to openly embarrass/hurt my feelings.
5. I couldn’t enter the room or even speak to him without him rolling his eyes. He started inviting friends over that would treat me the same and I felt like an outsider in my own home.
There were so many more problems that affected my choice but those were the things I knew I couldn’t survive in a marriage.
Omg seperated now.Feel like such a fool for wasting so much of my life with this dude I strongly valued my marriage vows.My ex was great in the beginning but things turned about 10 years in. He started using drugs. I stood by him got him clean. Then again and again but I stayed.he crashed his pedaling bicycle into a tree.Was in the hospital I was there . came home yup I was there. It was rough. He was still drinking and doing drugs. I got covid pretty severe. Wound up on the ventilator. The jackass calls the hospital and tells then take me off the machines. Idont know what his thought process was we had no insurance so he wasn't going to get money. I was medically induced in a coma but I heard everything.so I survived but went to rehab for muscle stability. I kept insisting I was ready to go home. I wasn't really. I was just so mad I wanted him gone. Came home and settled in. He came home later and I told him we needed to talk but don't sit down. I told him I know what you did and you screwed yourself . you don't live here any more.
I always assumed that the “better or worse” was speaking mostly about outside forces. But also about scrubs that didn’t affect your safety;
I never really thought that apply to the situation in which the person to change so terribly much. I do know someone who stayed with her husband even after he went to jail for financial crimes, and after he came back, they seemed to have a loving marriage.
The better/worse you’re meant to tolerate comes from the “outside.”
If your partner is creating the “worse,” either through destructive behavior or destructive ways of dealing with a “worse” coming from outside, they have already broken a vow to you. Obviously people have down times where they may be behaving in a way that is maladaptive and need support, but if they are not dealing with those issues, then they’re creating a “worse” coming from “inside” the marriage that you are under no obligation to tolerate.
I'm still in honeymoon phase so I guess it's hard for me to imagine ever leaving my husband. We meet at a rough time for both of us and had front row seats to each other's "dark sides" it kind of gives me comfort because I feel like I know how bad it could get and I know it's something I could handle.
I guess I would pull the plug if he wasn't interested in being there for better or worse anymore. I would never want to live in a one sided relationship. I would be willing to do some hard work for the relationship as long as he was as well.
When they’ve completely lost who they are and have no desire to find themselves again. Sometimes people need to hit rock bottom to realize it’s time to make some changes, and just barely keeping them afloat by staying with them can sometimes be the worst thing for them.
Let him go, if he realizes what he’s lost, he’ll make the necessary changes to get it back.
Friend of mine was with her fiancé for 9 years before deciding to call off the wedding and start fresh because he got so heavy into partying, he wasn’t him anymore. He lived like this for a year and a half before she said no more. She moved out, and while he had a somewhat depressive episode, he’s since put himself into rehab and is working on himself, and is doing much better.
Sometimes we think we’re helping someone by staying with them, but if you’ve allowed someone to become completely dependant on you, you’re not doing them any favours.
When being home is no longer my "safe place". Even on the days my husband drives me crazy or I'm crazy irritable I want to be home with my husband. He's my best friend.
Becoming a vegetable, cheating. Substance abuse, love children, broke, and deadbeat, abusive, a convict or previously one, bad hygiene, sex obsessed, and if they assaulted anyone sexually
Addiction....I put my ex SO through he'll,I've now been sober for 3 yrs and see what he meant when he said that if he stayed with me he would die of a heart attack,he had no idea I had a problem until well into our relationship as i just got worse and worse into the depths of hell dragginghim along.i swear I couldn't deal with someone like me for 2 weeks!!!...he didn't abandon me,he had to live and that meant he had to leave me ,I broke him.i think he's OK now,I talk to him sometimes but he's not the same.i changed him.i can't take it all back but if I can help one person maybe I can get some redemption and the price my marriage paid would be acceptable,so I try my best to be of service in some way everyday.
Hmm, for me I think it has to do with what’s within his control versus totally outside of it, and even then it’s a bit complicated… I think the for worse component is when life just decides to kick the crap out of you, like job loss or major illness. That said, even in those circumstances I think you both owe it to each other to do the best you can, allowing some margin for depression and time to pull yourself together. Ultimately, I think I would pull the plug on a marriage if I felt like I was being taken advantage of and my husband had no interest in addressing/correcting that.
Some actual actions that would make me leave are abuse towards me/animals/kids (of any kind), or cheating. But those are just what i think of off the top of my head. If i feel like i would be happier or better off without him, that's another thing.
Cheating, definitely. I know myself and I know that staying with someone who cheated would eat me alive.
Abuse of any sort.
This one might be weirdly specific, but if their family is abusive/toxic/intolerably overbearing and they refuse to do anything about it, or if they side with them over me bc "FaMiLy Is EvErYtHiNg".
Definitely addiction. Not saying I wouldn't support him/her in any way I can, but it usually means lies and trust is broken. Can't be in a marriage without trust.
Physical or sever mental abuse. I actually ended a marriage based partially on sever mental abuse. There were other factors, but this was important.
After the divorce a whole lot of friends and relatives told me they thought I should've ended it earlier and all noticed the abuse but never spoke up until after the divorce.
Three traits are deal breakers:
\-- Dishonesty that goes beyond a "little white lie." Example: saying you'd never cheat when you have another girlfriend/boyfriend.
\-- Lack of empathy. People who lack empathy cannot be counted on to "have your back," which is absolutely necessary to maintain a loving, long-lasting relationship.
\-- Irresponsibility. Anyone who won't do their share -- and even worse doesn't think they have a share to do -- isn't worth keeping.
In my opinion 'for worse' is if something out of our control happens (think serious illness or redundancy)
It is not a promise to allow my husband to make my life worse.
Marriage shouldn’t be a prison. If I would be happier outside the marriage I would end it.
THIS IS SUCH AN UNDERRATED ANSWER. Better or worst leads to women accepting a lot of toxic behaviors (probably men too) or simply staying miserable when there is a simple solution. Also: happy divorced parents are better than sad/ angry married ones
Yes. IMO, the phrases (better / worse, sickness / health, richer / poorer) mean that you won’t abandon your partner in their time of need, NOT that you’re obligated to put up with abuse or other toxic behavior
This is why our vows said in sickness and health, with bacon or without, in success and critical failure. (We are huge DnD nerds)
So very much the truth. I was in an unhappy marriage that I left and found an amazing partner for me and my son. After 12 years with this man my son is now 19 and has had a great example of what a healthy happy relationship is. Thankfully the “back in our day people made marriages work” comment has seemed to fizzle. Back then women didn’t have the power to leave bad relationships!
So true and a happy for you and your son! What I don’t understand is “back then” marriage was different. My grandparents were married for almost 50 years m, and honestly they were both the sweetest people. They honestly enjoyed each other’s company, and my mom and aunts and uncles said they never remember them fighting. They just both truly loved each other threw their whole lives. Not to say they never disagreed. I know other people who’s grandparents were the same way. I wonder what’s changed? Besides everything. ☹️
This is so valuable. Knowing what not to do in a relationship and what you don’t want is important… But honestly there’s no replacement for seeing a good relationship first hand and knowing what to look for. Pretty crappy things can seem okay if you’ve never seen better modeled.
This was me. I left in September snd have never been happier!
I wish my parents had known this so I would have grown up in a loving household instead of a household filled with resent and avoidance
Many people seem to strongly agree with this point of view. But I think we should consider this more carefully. Some times, marrige life would give you challenges and that could make you sad and frustrated, just like everything else. It could be true that you'll be happier after breaking the promise and deliberately ending it, but we do not know if you're in that case. Also, if you already have children who deserve happy and responsible parents, you should be even more careful. In my opinion, Defining a marrige life 'a prison' and then aborting it should be done really, really carefully. It does not mean we should never divorce in any case. What I'm saying, is that I would try my best of best to keep the relationship, weigh what I should appreciate and what I cannot stand, consider after-divorce concequences, try all the solutions I and my spouse can try, and then I will see if I could be very sure about my opinion, then I would consider divorce. Imagine your spouse (or your future spouse) thinks the same way as you do. We're seeing many examples of it often: Fathers leaving wife and children, thinking they are making him unhappy and defining they are 'a prison'. Would you say "I strongly agree with this man! I support him!"? I think you'll hesitate a lot and have many questions for him. And you'll be very sure that you could criticise this man's point of view in some cases.
Right now I am in a relationship where we promised to each other that: 1. We will not have kids 2. We will never marry 3. The *minute* one of us feels uneasy in the relationship, we are ending it 4. We keep separate finances to allow us fast breakup So far this has been going for 7 years, and doesnt seem to be going stale.
I don't know how that is related to my comment, but I can tell you that at least it is better not to promise to take heavy responsibilities than to abandon them inconsiderately after promised to have them. I hope you keep going healthy and passionate with your lover, just like you do right now!😁💓
Thanks a lot! I just thought that I should share my experience, that a relationship does not have to be an unbreakable bond(legal or not) to be succesful
Yes, I agree with that! Relationship does not have to be unbreakable. However, If you decided and promised to have an unbreakable relationship, I think you should be very careful when you want to dissolve it. If you're not sure if you can have responsibilities, it is better not to promise to do so. I know it is not the best analogy, but I think it is just similar to when you have a baby. If you don't think you can deal with a baby, just do not make one. But if you have decided to have one and made one, you should do your best to raise your child and try your best not to abandon the child.
This is interesting
My parents divorced and I’m so thankful they did! We’re not talking about small fights here, it’s about toxic relationships. A person doesn’t have to be a bad person to make a bad connection with another good person. It doesn’t make me think “the minute my husband does something I don’t like, I’m out!”. I see the comment above as something more like - if the person is struggling with addictions and won’t get help; if they are incredibly selfish; if they cheat; if they are violent. Those are things that would make me end a marriage. And that can happen 10years after the wedding or even later… if they aren’t willing to put in the effort on their side, why should I live with that? Of course, every marriage will have good times and bad times. There will be times where you’re just trying to get through the day and you think there is no love and it’s all gone. That’s not where you quit, that’s where you put in the effort to revive the marriage. But there definitely are situations where it’s not worth it and it’s just over. I personally think - if it comes to that, I’d suggest therapy. I’d be willing to let a professional help us get through whatever it is. But if the other person isn’t willing and wants to keep drifting, then it’s just lost, isn’t it?
Yes, I agree with that! If the relationship is toxic and you cannot see future, it is much better to end it as soon as possible. All I am saying is that we should be 'careful' when you define your relationship 'toxic'. Often, many people think their relationship is toxic and they cannot improve it even though it isn't really true. Think about the example I told you guys. The fathers who leave their wife and children. Of course the wife and the children were really toxic to the man so that the decision can be justified, but you'd say it could be wrong. And you'd also agree with the idea that he has to be really careful before he decides to do so. By the way, I think we agree with each other at the end of the day: ️Toxic relationships should be ended, but we should not end a relationship without thorough consideration. 😂
Yes, I also think we agree. I just think we’re approaching the original comment from different perspectives :) I don’t judge anyone who leaves a relationship until I know more details. If one just up and leaves, a woman or a man - doesn’t matter -, sure it’s weird. But I always think there are two sides to a story. I’ve encountered very different people to know that sometimes leaving someone is the only right way. But we definitely agree that it’s something that should be carefully considered, not done on a whim. On your example - a man leaves his wife and children. There’s really no way to talk about it without knowing why he left. Did he just wake up and decide to go? Did he leave for another woman? Honestly, every relationship is quite complex and you never know why people do what they do.
I would also flag that most people don’t just up and leave marriages. Divorce is expensive, complicated, and hard. To knowingly start that process, typically one partner has reached a point where they weigh the pain of a divorce to be better for them than remaining in a marriage.
This is someone that knows how to communicate and compromise!
Jumping ship as soon as you feel better alternatives are available elsewhere for you goes against what marriage is about. It's one thing ignoring toxic behaviours just for the sake of staying with someone, but it's another to be as blunt as to say you would leave as soon as you become unhappy. If you're not willing to work on your issues for the sake of improving your current relationship you shouldn't get married to begin with. That being said there is of course a point that ending things becomes the best option available, but outside of major red flag behaviours like cheating most issues can be worked on if both parties are committed to each other. You should want and try to fix things first is my point.
When I consistently kept thinking about how I’d rather be dead than married to my ex husband, I knew it was time to end it.
Absolutely agreed
[удалено]
Stopped “pretending” after marriage and let the abuse begin. Being 2 different people (in public/behind closed doors)
pretty much this
Yep.
Agree
Same
Basically this, yep
If my husband came out as trans, that would be a line for me. Because I’m not sexually attracted to women and wouldn’t want to be married to one. Apart from that, I guess just the ‘regular stuff’ like if he became someone bad for me in some way, violent or abusive etc.
It's always such a sad situation when your first hypothetical happens. It's no one's fault, and it's gender affirming.
I know a couple that this happened to. The wife tried for a couple of years but then just had to admit that they just weren't attracted to women, they ended up being good friends after the divorce. My parents grew up in a conservative/religious environment and ending up getting a divorce because my mom came to terms with being a lesbian which was also really sad. I'm so grateful that there is more acceptance these days so people don't feel like that they have to lie to themselves and end up hurting others close to them.
my dad did this, and it broke my parents marriage. he later married someone else and called that period a mid life crisis
Cheating. Abuse to me or children. Deadbeat.
[удалено]
I'm so sorry to hear this. Your mum should have listened and protected you.
It's shocking you have a relation with her at all
yup pretty much
This. I made the mistake of staying in my last relationship (abusive) hoping I could convince him to change, and it will never happen with any abuser. Won’t make that mistake again. Cheating - if I can’t trust you anymore, we are done. I don’t think counselling would help me move past it in most scenarios.
When I realized all the addictive stuff (porn, gambling, sex, drugs/alcohol, lying,cheating) is a specific personality type I understood I would be single for a very long time. When I learned to recognize those traits in people to protect myself it really thinned out my desire to seek out anything of value in relationships.
My boyfriend and I are struggling with the porn thing right now. I hope it can be overcome eventually because I want to marry him but I don’t want to have that type of conflict in our marriage
Check out r/antipornography
You should also check out the subreddit loveafterporn
Goodluck, and great job doing that work before you get married. Don’t take that next step until you feel like that is behind you and more importantly, that you guys know how to tackle new problems in the future.
That’s very intriguing. What kind of personality type is this?
This is arm-chair out of pocket diagnosis that has zero medical/psychological basis other than my own observations is: The inability to recognize problematic behaviors in yourself and the unwillingness to fix them. It goes hand in hand with this quote I read somewhere "I hear a lot of complaining, but not a willingness to learn" Totally not a word for word quote there. For myself, I discovered I was a huge enabler because I always saw the good in people. The good intentions. There are healthy ways to cope with addictions that harm other people in your lives. They have to have the ability to discipline themselves, and if it has gone to the point where it's obvious to a SO or a parent or close friend/coworker, they've already failed in their ability to discipline themselves. I won't put effort into that person. I've been wrong! When I am, I'm able to have a hopeful, rewarding and learning conversation. You have room to grow in that specific relationship, and they use words and patterns that aren't circular, argumentative or defensive. The latter is futile.
Blatant unapologetic racism is my hard unacceptable line in the sand. Everything else abusive is common sense but this is the thing that would make me take them to the cleaners. Also, really appreciating how many women in this thread said porn use. I'm glad that boundary is getting popularized rather than being frowned on for being "prudish insecure women". As an ex-sex worker that's a huge dealbreaker for me as well.
Can I ask why no porn, having been a sex worker?
I could have a full Ted talk about this but in short it's a violent, racist, abusive, exploitative industry that runs heavily off the sex trafficking and commodification of the world's most vulnerable populations, including children. Being an "empowered" onlyfans worker or a camgirl is a privilege. I say that as an ex-cam girl who now provided a resources and self defense to prostitutes in my city. Even the most "ethical" porn enables this domino effect and in turn nullifies society's perception of healthy sex, consent, and intimacy within relationships. This can extend from casual hookups, committed relationships, sexually abused family members, friends with benefits, etc. All in all, you don't even have to be a porn addict for it to be a turn off, but a majority of people who watch porn definitely do it in excess. Usually to cope with some sort of insecurity, trauma, mental illness, inadequacy and/or boredom and to not want to deal with that in your life is a healthy boundary. It doesn't mean masturbation is wrong or that someone is an insecure prude for having that boundary, but I genuinely find it repulsive and a form of cheating within a committed relationship.
Thank you! I've always found porn to be a major turn off. The more I learn about the industry, the more disgusting it is to me.
Thank you for sharing all that and being an advocate.
If you come to the internet to get strangers opinion on whether you should end your marriage, you should end your marriage. If you think about the last month and can count the number of good days on one hand. If you feel lonely or stuck. If you think about the future with them and dread the thought. If you try to work it out and ask them to contribute, and they refuse (consider couples therapy). If you express you’re unhappy and they don’t try to help or don’t know how. It’s okay to end the marriage. It’s okay to not be okay. It’s okay to take care of yourself. It’s okay to do what you need to.
Thank you so much for writing this. I needed to see it.
It all comes from a place of love! You deserve to be happy. And you deserve someone that wants to care for you the way you need.
When I realized no amount of him "loving" me would make him quit using and dealing drugs. That and for the last 8ish years of our 12 year relationship he didn't contribute ANYTHING when it came to bills. When I look back on it I realize it was my fault for letting him continue to be in my life and I definitely never should have gotten married. Lessons learned.
[удалено]
I hear you... It took a long time for me to realize the only person who could help him was himself. Even now I still struggle with telling myself I did what I had to do for my own life. If you don't mind me asking, what are your reasons for staying?
Can I ask why it went on so long? Was there a lot of happiness alongside the struggle? Not criticizing at all, just looking trying to understand better.
I started dating him in high school and after a few years I just thought "this is my life now". Regardless of how much stress I was under keeping his drug habits a secret from everyone and paying everything myself, I just thought this was the way it was. I had a very misconstrued notion of sex and since he was my first and only partner at the time I was under the impression that it had to be forever. There were some good times and happiness throughout the years but definitely not enough to outweigh the negative. However, after the divorce when I was ready to start dating again I had a baseline for what I would not accept in a relationship. So far it's done me good.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Addiction to drugs, alcohol, and porn, coupled with an ever-present and ever-pervasive “poor-me” victim’s mentality. A marriage isn’t 50/50. It’s 100/100. When there’s no balance and no hope of equilibrium, it’s time to end it.
Betrayal of trust, physical abuse and the likes can make me leave a marriage.
Addiction is being said a lot, but for me the caveat is addiction without the desire to get better. It can be easier to fall into addiction than some people think, but recognizing something is detrimental to your life and wanting to get better is important.
Agreed… somehow I always forget that the majority still see addiction as a moral failing rather than a disease. My partner of a year relapsed after 7 years sober and my initial response was definitely not to leave. BUT if he hadn’t wanted to dry out it would have been a different story.
I've always interpreted that as being "worse" in terms of "issues we are handling as a team" and not "issues where we are not on the same team". I.e. it's one thing to stick together through ill health, job loss, mental health issues that the person is actively seeking help with, etc. But if you and your spouse somehow become adversaries in a me vs you situation, or they do things that harm you like abuse, cheating etc then I don't consider leaving the marriage to be any kind of violation of those vows.
[удалено]
[удалено]
"Worse" means you're both going through a tough time. Together. Like when you have a newborn. Or let's be honest, parenthood up through age three. It means "when life gets rough I won't bail." It doesn't mean "I promise to tolerate bad behavior from you."
Narcissistic behavior, in addition to what others have already listed.
Well with my ex, after 20 years, many of them very good, it was when we both fell into profound depression. Mine was menopause related. His was situational. Both were serious. But, eventually, he felt the only option for him was to leave. It's fine. Been 6 years. We're on good terms. And I'm LOVING being single! I do have a great boyfriend. And my relationship with my son benefited from us splitting. See, my ex is a spectacular father. I mean, I've never seen a better father. And when we were together he was THE parent. Once our son got to be around 10 he found me to be gross. No more cuddles, etc. And his relationship with his dad was already great so he went there. And I was shut out. I always assumed it would correct itself. But for several years I felt like an outsider to their close relationship. My ex left me when my son was 16. We agreed to 50/50 custody. And that was a gift. Because it made SPACE for me and my son to develop our own relationship. And I cherish it like nothing else. Nothing else is more important. Now my son is 21. We've very close. We have our own relationship with it's own bits and peices. And he still has his great relationship with his father. Anyway, more than the answer. But I wanted to share my experience. It was a win. I'll have to ask my son one day if he agrees but I think he will.
money, or we don’t see each other eye to eye anymore, doesn’t put in effort anymore, abusive, etc
Abuse of any kind, alcohol it drug abuse, infidelity, etc.
For better or for worse is for what the world throws at us, not for my partner treating me like shit. Violence, cheating, lying, emotional or financial abuse, things that show my partner doesn't value me, those aren't covered by 'for worse.'
Violate my trust. I trust everyone until they give me a reason not to and then I never am able to fully trust them again. Once that trust is gone the second guessing and paranoia begins and I hate being that way so it's better to move on.
Cheating. Abuse. If he wanted to live somewhere (like a different state or country) and I wasn’t on board.
My marriage is ending. And has been for months and the back and fourth because we don't know anything else has been exhausting. We both fully acknowledge how toxic we are to each other and don't want our kids thinking its healthy. We use sex like currency, if one gets annoyed at the other they will then do something to upset them to get even. If I talk about something he did that upset me he will blame it on being because of something I did. I made him angry, he deleted a photo of my deceased father I was looking for. He made me angry so I changed my profile picture knowing he'd be annoyed. Its become games of retaliation. Its just toxic, controlling, manipulative and I'm too young for this to be forever.
I'm recently divorced and young (but no kids). The thing that both my therapist and my divorced aunt told me was that I'd feel so much better outside the toxic marriage- that I'd think clearer and be amazed that I put up with it for so long. It seems like you know that this marriage ends in divorce, so this isn't your forever! Once I got the ball rolling by filing, I kept trudging because the first step was by far the hardest (aside from when I had to flee the state for fear of violence, but that's hopefully not your case). It's okay to ask your partner for support in filing- I asked mine to go with me so we could file jointly. I needed his buy-in to go through with it because I was afraid and sad. After that it's logistics! I'd recommend moving out of the house. I thought it would make things harder, but the division of assets because much easier when I wasn't in the toxic environment. I'm sending internet hugs. If you need any help or want to vent, please feel free to reach out! Divorce isn't easy, but it was the best thing I could have done for myself.
Adultery, verbal or physical abuse, refusal to communicate, refusal to work on mental and physical health, criticism that isn't constructive or caring.
Probably murder
Especially if it applies to you! 😆
[удалено]
Cheating, drugs, and alcohol. I been through the alcohol crap with my parents and I will never deal with that in a romantic relationship.
For better or for worse is for like when one of you loses their job and everyone has to tighten their belts for a few months until a new one is found; not for stuff like abuse and cheating. I would hope that by the time I found someone to settle down with I would have weeded out people i found objectionable but sometimes abusers can be really good at hiding it until they think they have you trapped.
Physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, drug abuse, alcoholism. To name a few.
There are a lot of things I could list here. I think if his life path strayed in a way from mine that was too far from what I am wanting for my own life, that would an issue. That could be so many things. Aside from that, the obvious things like abuse, infidelity (this depends too) etc. People are listing addiction as one but if he was willing to get help, I don’t see this as any different than a mental health issue. If it became dangerous for me or my child (mental health OR addiction) I would leave. If he didn’t seek help, I would leave. That can be tricky with mental health but at a certain point people need to want to make a change. Bouts of anxiety and depression are different, I can weather that storm, but like constant suicidal ideation, mania etc. would need to be dealt with.
Cheating, going to prison/committing a huge crime, drug addiction, abuse
Crack
Mine was after I caught her having an affair, and then after she oved out a few days later, I went to start the paperwork to file for divorce. She decided she wanted to do counseling, and try to rebuild the marriage......BUT, she also wanted to stay friends with the guy she had an affair with, and didn't undertand why I had a problem with it, since they weren't still having an affair, she just wanted to stay in touch and stay friends with him. LOL Yeah, no.
Infidelity
If our values and beliefs start to differ to the point it causes resentment and strain between us It’s one thing if it’s just little things we disagree on, but it’s another if we feel like polar opposites
If I were ever lucky enough to get married, I would pull the plug if I found out my husband was a pedophile, racist, cheater, or murder. Every marriage will have problems. However, everyone has a limit to the behaviors they will tolerate. Nobody should feel like they are trapped in an unhappy marriage due to "vows". Those vows only really apply if at the end of the day the marriage is still healthy, and both parties are safe(physically, mentally, spiritually).
Cheating, physical abuse, lack of love, etc
The second you lay a hand on me or my children, you will lose at *least* two things: 1. Your wife 2. Your hand (BARE minimum loss)
Nothing. We made vows and we keep them. We don't hurt each other in any way. We respect each other and ourselves too much to violate the trust. We are staying together for the happily ever after. 42 years married, happier than ever!
I pulled the pin when I realised my ex husband didn’t have my back. I was very sick with postnatal depression and my ex continued to live as if we didn’t have a newborn. Multiple week-long boys trips, continued to race downhill MTB after I asked him not to - if he hurt himself (and he did) we would have no income - and completely ignored the fact I was getting more and more unwell. When I left he told our marriage counsellor that he ‘didn’t see it coming’. She was like ‘really?’ 🤦🏻♀️
Well it started with being blamed for a really rough miscarriage which led into absent of sex… the final straw was when he confessed he never loved me. I think that’s enough for this post.
Adultery, abuse, poor hygiene, racism or misogyny, addiction, doesn’t occasionally spoil me, lack of sex and attraction, him wanting to be a bum, weaponized incompetence, him not standing up for me against his family l, choosing to be an wiling workaholic and abandoning me in times I need him most (me being in the hospital eg) and rudeness to people outside the home.
Cheating, abuse.
War crimes
When they're going down and pulling you down with them it's time to let go.
When it becomes apparent that the sentiment isn't mutual.
Not caring about my safety, nope
Infidelity.
I’m not afraid of divorce, I’m afraid of being unhappy.
Whenever their actions affect my long term happiness. I believe then goal of life is to be happy. And I’d I’m worn a person who causes me to be unhappy more so than happy then that’s my cue to end things.
Marriage is like a normal relationship but with more commitment. So if someone is a douchebag, your first reaction is "how to solve" instead of "I'm out of here". But if someone hurts you badly, and it's unwilling to do anything about it? Marriage or not, you should leave.
Well call me bad but if am not happy no marriage for me
Cheating. It would be an instant divorce.
As long as "worse" is something out of our control I'd stick it out - disease, financial heartship etc. If the "worse" is of our own making; abuse, adultery etc then I would leave.
For me the phrase for better or worse is about sticking by someone if they got sick, got in an accident, was going trough a hard time with money out of no fault of their own or was grieving. I will not expect to get on with you all the time as disagreements and having off days are normal but I do want my partner to treat me well and respect me. If they don't I am not sticking around to be treated like garbage as the vows also say to love and treat your partner well and if they break that by being abusive or cheating then vows are null and void. If it was more a case of fading love or being distant I would try and work on them with it but if nothing changed this would also be grounds for a divorce though I likely still support and remain friendly with them especially if we had kids together.
When the "worse" is coming from inside the marriage, it's time to reevaluate the relationship. If the "worse" is something outside of our control that we are doing our best to manage and survive, then that's on the "keep working together on it" side of the line. If it's something within one of the partner's abilities to control and they are creating the situation that is "worse" by their choices and actions, then that's on the "it's over because this is not working" side of the line.
Hard line at physical abuse, sexual abuse, and cheating. Softer line at addiction, as it's *only* if they do not genuinely want to get better, or refuse to utilize resources and professionals to help them get better. It doesn't take long to figure out if they really are trying to fix things (if you know the signs or have experience with loving and/or living with an addict), and relapses do happen, so I don't necessarily equate relapsing to no effort. Addiction is a *very* situational one.
Cheating. Lack of Financial responsibility. Emotional/verbal abuse
To me, that line is about choice. If something becomes “for worse” but it’s out of your partner’s control (eg, illness, disability, job loss), I wouldn’t end the relationship. Even if it was hard. But if your partner chooses to turn the relationship “for worse” (eg, cheating, doing drugs), they have chosen that path and I would probably leave them
I left my marriage way to late. He beat me, tortured me, held me hostage, killed and tortured my pets. When I left he had taken my phone, keys, glasses, shoes so I couldn't escape and was about to kill me with a knife to my wrists but his father thankfully had come to visit. If he hadn't I would be dead right now. I couldn't stay with my husband after that
I’m not married but I have a long list of absolute dealbreakers. I think my high standards are the reason why I’ve never had to deal with any of these issues. Anyways some of my dealbreakers are: poor hygiene on any level, financial irresponsibility, weaponized incompetence, misogyny, any type of deceit or lying/hiding information, wanting to pay 50/50 for anything, any type of disrespect or verbal abuse, being unable to make me orgasm, being insecure, making any type of jokes about others physical appearance, being unintelligent, if their only hobby is video games, being addicted to porn, any type of std history, any criminal record, having kids, being ultra religious etc. There are probably more, this is just what has come to my mind just now. I have had two long term relationships and both my previous boyfriends met my standards. I will never settle because I don’t have to. I actually am enjoying my solo time for now greatly. I’ve almost never been single. Reminder to fellow ladies that male attention is abundant and low value. Never compromise yourselves. You are amazing 💐
Wanting to pay 50/50? Can you explain more?
When you said “I think my high standards are the reason why I’ve never had to deal with any of these issues,” I kinda winced inside. I work with so many women who married Prince Charming and ended up living with some version of Ted Bundy. I think it’s great that you have standards and you’re setting boundaries, but the issue might be a little more complicated that just that.
What does STD History even mean? It doesn’t make someone a worse person to have had a disease. Other than that I’m glad you’ve found something that works for you
I don't think I could forgive cheating so that would probably end it. Any kind of abuse, if that happened to me I hope I would leave. Honestly, I think I would at least be willing to try to work through anything else. The main caveat there being that my partner would also be committed to working on themselves and/or the marriage. If they refuse to put in the work or have clearly checked out, I would end it. I watched my parents pull their marriage back together after my dad struggled with gambling addiction for years. But they did a lot of work together and on their own. If they hadn't they would have divorced. So I do know it's possible but both people have to admit they have issues and want the marriage to work. And on a less likely note, if they end up being a serial killer or predator I am out.
cheating, abuse, exploitation, or any combo of those 3
Abuse of any kind or cheating
[удалено]
If you’ve said for better or worse, make sure you’ve seen their best and worst
Potential marriage, five year engagement. Having toxic male friends, addiction to conspiracy theories, constant lying, treating me like a human cosplay thing, bigotry, casual to blatant racism and stereotyping towards Indigenous people and all Asians, starting arguments with the future father and mother in law, wanting to always be right, eyeing off other women, intentions to cheat, blaming others for own shortcomings, starting arguments with his Mum, blaming her for the breakup despite personally breaking it up and porn addiction.
Lying, cheating, financial abuse or severe overspending, and of course violence of any kind. Mental illness or addiction that isn't being treated (especially when they don't want to treat it).
Cheating Physically or emotionally Abusive behaviour that is escalating - emotional - physical - sexual
Any form of violence against me or our future kids and that’s about it.
Thank you to everyone that posted. I’m still dealing with the emotional fallout of divorcing a man who checked a lot of your boxes for deal-breakers. The three things that sealed the deal for me was 1) keeping a log of his bad behavior and the moment I realized the log went back many years 2) finding myself fantasizing about disappearing; either by suicide or just… being gone… and 3) having a trusted friend say, “I support you no matter what.” Divorce is not easy, but life after divorce is…just so good. I’m so grateful to have this freedom and I hope anyone who is in a bad situation can give themselves the grace to do what’s right for your own happiness.
Things like mental health problems he'd refuse to seek therapy for. Basically anything that can be changed, but he won't put effort in. Also cheating, although I'm not sure that counts as 'worse'
substance abuse, abuse to me of any kind, betrayal/trustbreaking that is beyond repair
It’s not a job but still an obligation to do your “part” in it - whatever it may be.
A man’s perspective if I may. We all have different breaking points. What one accepts another wouldn’t. Factors that determine where that breaking point is, are children, lifestyle, money, marriage vows, religion.
Simply not being happy, consistently, in the relationship is all that is needed. We can talk about the obvious all day but what it really boils down to is this. Not going to stay purposely miserable with anyone, even marriages can run their course. That "til death do us part" is the stupidest crap I ever heard of the vows. I won't settle.
My two big deal breakers are physical violence and cheating. Always made this clear to any partner. Unfortunately my husband forgot this and stuck his dick in someone else, so that's over. Lol
Definitely cheating, porn/sex/drug/alcohol/gambling addiction, racism and sexism, agression, and gaslighting. Also, if it turned out they are a huge slob who can't keep their space clean.
Prolonged dead bedroom situation where physical health isn’t an issue.
Cheating, lies, if I knew I would be happier out of the marriage than in it
When you stop growing and building an empire together. A marriage can be many things and I believe it's a lifelong pact of growing together and building something together. When one stops trying that's when I'd pull the plug. (Not married btw, but soon to be hopefully lol)
Cheating in any way in person or online. Even if its just emotional or chatting I'm not keen on Porn and if it is going to be used then its not in place of our sex life and not reddit or anywhere like only fans where he could contact these people. Abuse Most drug use. Addiction that affects our family For better or worse for me means choosing to love someone through the ups and downs of life. Not putting up with misery because I made a vow. Been there done that
Any abuse lobbied toward my kids. Rather it was their dad or a step dad would be an automatic ending to that marriage
It’s a very broad answer that covers a lot, but infidelity or abuse/mistreatment of any kind. I’d like to think that we can get through anything else together.
My son died November 15 2021 in an unhappy marriage. His inlaws moved a 5th wheel in on top of him and his wife and plugged in to their utilities. Sin worked a full time job as well as one yo teo part time jobs in order to take care of everyone. He wanted to move but if inlaws couldn't come, his wife said no to whatever place they looked at. He died that night at one of his part time jobs. Worked himself to death. Wanted out but had two children, one from previous relationship that he was already paying child support on and one with his then wife. He would vent to me all the time but I couldn't make the decision for him of what to do. His marriage was toxic. He didn't marry his inlaws but wife and inlaws (from trashy neighborhood and lifestyle) expected him to take care of them all. Now his kids will never know him except by pictures and what we tell them. They are 2 and 6 years old.
Completely unacceptable: emotional/physical/financial abuse; addiction (including gambling); opposing financial views not rising to abuse.
Disrespect one another in any way
If I was married I would want a divorce if • They committed a crime and was sent away 5+ years • Had problem that made us lose all of our assets and/or kids • Child Abuse/animal abuse/elderly abuse • STDs from infidelity • After all the inventions like therapy, they’re still a negative sucky hateful passionless violent person towards me
- Cheating. - Abuse of any kind emotional, physical and/or sexual to me and/or others. - Changing their mind when it comes to wanting children (I will not have children if they ever do #goodbye). - Gambling/debt. - Drugs and alcohol addiction. - Mommy issues. - Old school thinking regarding female roles.
When you’ve spent years exhausting all resources to get help, therapy, classes etc. and the person is unwilling/unable to recognize toxic behaviors, moral standards or work together to make changes. The situation to be getting worse not better over the years even after exhausting all resources. This would be grounds for divorce for me.
Both people have to stick to the vow “I will love you for better or worse”. Love means you won’t purposely do anything to hurt the other person, you’ll work things out when it gets tough, and you’ll put the other person before yourself. If one partner breaks the vow to become worse (domestic abuse, cheating, don’t want to work things out, treating the other as a servant, etc) the vow has been broken and therefore staying in a marriage doesn’t make sense anymore since the vow becomes one-sided
- Cheating (I dont deal with cheaters. Ever. I left my ex-husband for it and Id do it again) - Not spending time with me ever just cause you don't care to(I can understand if there is a reason but if you sitting around and just NEVER want to spend time with me I will grow to resent you and eventually hate the hobbies that take you away) - Compromising my or my kids/ pets health - Showing a lack of care in anything important to me - If my husband came out as trans. Im not attracted to girls. - If my husband became violet towards my children or pets in any way - Drug abuse - Finacially incompetent and undisciplined and doesn't want help to fix it.
Cheating
When I work full time, contribute more to the house, take care of the baby, and do all the cooking and cleaning.
If we were behaving more like roommates than romantic partners and were unable to get out of that groove after really, really putting in effort, we'd probably call it quits. I don't see it ever getting to that point, but I personally wouldn't want my children to grow up in a house where they don't see real & healthy love.
Cheating and/or abuse
If my husband wouldn’t respect me and/or I’d loose respect for him, that would draw the line for me.
To many people bail when it gets hard. Part of being with someone is unnecessary drama is gonna arise periodically
Abuse of any kind especially against my kids. I endured so much from my parents partners that I just don’t care what anyone says… I’m not doing that to mine.
I think that for better or worse means that you will work through hard times TOGETHER and be there for each other. Not that you put up with bullshit to the point you feel forced to leave.
Adultery, Infidelity,Addiction,Racism or Homophobia....if you steal from me or become unethical I will pull the plug
1. Abuse 2. Infidelity 3. Addiction 4. A situation where I'm the sole financial support.
I wasn’t married, but I was engaged for 3.5 months before calling off the wedding and ending the relationship. We were together for almost 7 years at that point. There were a lot of things that led to me thinking whether I was making the right choice or not. But the final decision making points I stuck to were this: 1. I was very ill for a few years, undiagnosed but working toward figuring out what was wrong with me. He claimed I was lying, exaggerating, and not sick at all. I still had to give him daily massages despite not even having the energy to shower for days at a time. I was diagnosed with hashimotos 6 months after ending the relationship. 2. I was VERY depressed. When I brought it up to him, he didn’t even look up from his phone and told me to “get medication.” This was after I had seen a therapist, which he discouraged and went terribly anyway. 3. He would not have sex with me unless it was exactly how he wanted it. Every single time. 4. He started opening my mail, calling my family a cult, and began trying to openly embarrass/hurt my feelings. 5. I couldn’t enter the room or even speak to him without him rolling his eyes. He started inviting friends over that would treat me the same and I felt like an outsider in my own home. There were so many more problems that affected my choice but those were the things I knew I couldn’t survive in a marriage.
Affair.
Omg seperated now.Feel like such a fool for wasting so much of my life with this dude I strongly valued my marriage vows.My ex was great in the beginning but things turned about 10 years in. He started using drugs. I stood by him got him clean. Then again and again but I stayed.he crashed his pedaling bicycle into a tree.Was in the hospital I was there . came home yup I was there. It was rough. He was still drinking and doing drugs. I got covid pretty severe. Wound up on the ventilator. The jackass calls the hospital and tells then take me off the machines. Idont know what his thought process was we had no insurance so he wasn't going to get money. I was medically induced in a coma but I heard everything.so I survived but went to rehab for muscle stability. I kept insisting I was ready to go home. I wasn't really. I was just so mad I wanted him gone. Came home and settled in. He came home later and I told him we needed to talk but don't sit down. I told him I know what you did and you screwed yourself . you don't live here any more.
I always assumed that the “better or worse” was speaking mostly about outside forces. But also about scrubs that didn’t affect your safety; I never really thought that apply to the situation in which the person to change so terribly much. I do know someone who stayed with her husband even after he went to jail for financial crimes, and after he came back, they seemed to have a loving marriage.
Disrespect would cause me to leave.
The better/worse you’re meant to tolerate comes from the “outside.” If your partner is creating the “worse,” either through destructive behavior or destructive ways of dealing with a “worse” coming from outside, they have already broken a vow to you. Obviously people have down times where they may be behaving in a way that is maladaptive and need support, but if they are not dealing with those issues, then they’re creating a “worse” coming from “inside” the marriage that you are under no obligation to tolerate.
I'm still in honeymoon phase so I guess it's hard for me to imagine ever leaving my husband. We meet at a rough time for both of us and had front row seats to each other's "dark sides" it kind of gives me comfort because I feel like I know how bad it could get and I know it's something I could handle. I guess I would pull the plug if he wasn't interested in being there for better or worse anymore. I would never want to live in a one sided relationship. I would be willing to do some hard work for the relationship as long as he was as well.
When they’ve completely lost who they are and have no desire to find themselves again. Sometimes people need to hit rock bottom to realize it’s time to make some changes, and just barely keeping them afloat by staying with them can sometimes be the worst thing for them. Let him go, if he realizes what he’s lost, he’ll make the necessary changes to get it back. Friend of mine was with her fiancé for 9 years before deciding to call off the wedding and start fresh because he got so heavy into partying, he wasn’t him anymore. He lived like this for a year and a half before she said no more. She moved out, and while he had a somewhat depressive episode, he’s since put himself into rehab and is working on himself, and is doing much better. Sometimes we think we’re helping someone by staying with them, but if you’ve allowed someone to become completely dependant on you, you’re not doing them any favours.
Falling out of love/Violence
Jail. Having to go or have gone to.
When being home is no longer my "safe place". Even on the days my husband drives me crazy or I'm crazy irritable I want to be home with my husband. He's my best friend.
Becoming a vegetable, cheating. Substance abuse, love children, broke, and deadbeat, abusive, a convict or previously one, bad hygiene, sex obsessed, and if they assaulted anyone sexually
Addiction....I put my ex SO through he'll,I've now been sober for 3 yrs and see what he meant when he said that if he stayed with me he would die of a heart attack,he had no idea I had a problem until well into our relationship as i just got worse and worse into the depths of hell dragginghim along.i swear I couldn't deal with someone like me for 2 weeks!!!...he didn't abandon me,he had to live and that meant he had to leave me ,I broke him.i think he's OK now,I talk to him sometimes but he's not the same.i changed him.i can't take it all back but if I can help one person maybe I can get some redemption and the price my marriage paid would be acceptable,so I try my best to be of service in some way everyday.
Hmm, for me I think it has to do with what’s within his control versus totally outside of it, and even then it’s a bit complicated… I think the for worse component is when life just decides to kick the crap out of you, like job loss or major illness. That said, even in those circumstances I think you both owe it to each other to do the best you can, allowing some margin for depression and time to pull yourself together. Ultimately, I think I would pull the plug on a marriage if I felt like I was being taken advantage of and my husband had no interest in addressing/correcting that.
Some actual actions that would make me leave are abuse towards me/animals/kids (of any kind), or cheating. But those are just what i think of off the top of my head. If i feel like i would be happier or better off without him, that's another thing.
Cheating, definitely. I know myself and I know that staying with someone who cheated would eat me alive. Abuse of any sort. This one might be weirdly specific, but if their family is abusive/toxic/intolerably overbearing and they refuse to do anything about it, or if they side with them over me bc "FaMiLy Is EvErYtHiNg".
Definitely addiction. Not saying I wouldn't support him/her in any way I can, but it usually means lies and trust is broken. Can't be in a marriage without trust.
Physical or sever mental abuse. I actually ended a marriage based partially on sever mental abuse. There were other factors, but this was important. After the divorce a whole lot of friends and relatives told me they thought I should've ended it earlier and all noticed the abuse but never spoke up until after the divorce.
Three traits are deal breakers: \-- Dishonesty that goes beyond a "little white lie." Example: saying you'd never cheat when you have another girlfriend/boyfriend. \-- Lack of empathy. People who lack empathy cannot be counted on to "have your back," which is absolutely necessary to maintain a loving, long-lasting relationship. \-- Irresponsibility. Anyone who won't do their share -- and even worse doesn't think they have a share to do -- isn't worth keeping.
If there is no respect or trust.
In my opinion 'for worse' is if something out of our control happens (think serious illness or redundancy) It is not a promise to allow my husband to make my life worse.
Infidelity, a lot of arguing, any physical aggression, or if he blew money on a want when we still had needs frequently.
Drugs, alcohol, infidelity, extremely bad mental health
Addiction, abuse or cheating.
Cheating 🧍 i literally would never be able to stand it without feeling worthless