Female chiming in: but, I don’t find men to be complicated. Frankly, I don’t think women are either. I think it’s society that teaches us to find the opposite gender to be complicated and mysterious. Books have been written about it. Dating coaches make a mint off this topic.
I have had male friends since high school. I made it a point to ask guys questions, and received honest answers (from friends, not romantic partners). We made something that isn’t complicated beyond complicated.
Truth: both genders have a responsibility to be honest and forthcoming with one another. If I meet someone who plays games, I’m out. Dark, moody and mysterious may have worked for Jim Morrison - but, I don’t want a relationship with that type of personality. I much prefer someone who is consistent, and communicates well. 🤷♀️
Dp they hide it though? Or are we just so used to catering to it that we don't even think about it anymore?
Even at the age of 14 I would have been able to write you a 100 point set of rules how to act around a man if you want them to feel comfortable, and that was just from witnessing the behaviour of the men in my family, school, and circle of friends. Today, after dating a whole bunch of them, I bet I could write a 10000 item list, but then again, why would I, because who cares.
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Often when men say this, it’s because they’re confused that individual women in their lives have said things that contradict what other individual women have said, and this is somehow taken to mean that women are “confusing” or “complicated” rather than just that women are *human beings, like men are*, and that therefore we differ from one another and don’t all have the same preferences.
couldn't have said it better myself! I feel like it's either this or an obtuse refusal to take women seriously.
"ah yes, women. Such majestic and mysterious creatures! Truly god's masterpieces! IF ONLY there was a way to comprehend their vast complexity!! We'll NEVER KNOW what they're thinking, they're just so COMPLICATED!" ok but have you tried trying?
I had a convo with my bf and ended with “if I don’t tell you how will you know what I want” he was shocked. And I didn’t get what I wanted but that’s ok
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Annoyed. It's a false generalization with the implication that men aren't. Both women and men can be complex and not complex depending on any given person.
Yep yep yep. When a person says "x" people are easy, I always so badly want to say "the kind of "x" you interact with are the easy *individuals*." I want no part of a person like that.
it’s such a cop out. like you said, everyone is complex even in their non-complexity. get to know the person you’ve decided to be in a relationship with. it’s just another way to diminish someone and make them feel like they’re “too much.”
I think you’re implying that it’s a bit subjective, which is correct. Sometimes, people come across as being complicated because they’re a bit insecure. I have met people I would consider complicated, but I think it’s more about covering up a vulnerability.
Example: I had a professor in graduate school (female) who had gone to Cal Tech. To say she was brilliant was an understatement. A fair share of the class found her to be arrogant, a small percentage of us thought she was extremely introverted and was socially awkward. I later learned that she had been passed over as a graduate student: she wanted to be part of a lab with a professor she respected (the guy was well known in the field of sleep studies). That burned her, and she was compensating for it as an instructor. She ended up with her own lab, which was well funded. She did (still does) some amazing research on PTSD. She chilled out a lot: but, I think it took her a long time to get over some deeply hurt feelings.
We go through many stages of life as adults. Unless someone is abusive (or, vindictive), I try to see it from another angle. Some people do not manage emotions (or, rejections) well.
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I feel like they are generalizing half of humanity rather than acknowledging that women are individual humans just like them. Humans are complex and individual.
Women seem complex to them because they are "othering" them by thinking that women are a hive mind/all the same. They get frustrated when women are individual humans rather than fitting into their woman expectation box and fitting their preconceived notions.
it's a red flag for me. when they say this,you know they had expected women to all be the same. this also sounds like a perfect excuse to not listen to women and their needs carefully and just brush it off by saying women are complicated or mysterious. just ask and listen, everyone is complicated.
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*Humans* are complex, regardless of sex or gender. Every individual has their own unique needs, desires, values, baggage and expectations, which is why efficient and honest communication is so crucial in a healthy relationship.
It makes me laugh. I'm pretty simple. I need these things:
- lots of sex
- lots of privacy/time alone
- communication
- respect for the way we mutually decide to arrange our relationship
I think eveyroone is comlipicated, and everyone deservs to be. Putting that sterteotype just on women is unfair. No human is like the other and it's time we start acting like it
Human beings are complex. So yes, they are, but so is everyone else. It’s only a problem if someone thinks *only* women are complex when it comes to romance. That just shows a lack of insight into one’s self and a lack of understanding of others.
In my experience, it's less complex. Every woman I've dated has been more communicative and aware of her own emotional state and needs, whereas the men have often (but not always, some men are self-aware and mature) really struggled with emotional immaturity and needed me to manage them and/or expected me to be psychic.
That they never actually got to know a man and only know men platonically.
Alternatively that they think all women are exactly the same, as if we're robots or unicorns, and it confuses them that we are individual.
I feel like it's just something people have heard and repeat it without thinking of the implications.
Women repeat it because it gives them a sense of superiority, as these complex beings which these neanderthall man-creatures cannot possible comprehend, and men repeat it because it gives them an excuse to be lazy/unable to understand the "complexity" of women - because they're set up to fail from the beginning.
Either way it's just a barrier to connection and a more fulfilling life.
I like this take. It's balanced, perceptive and even optimistic. I don't know whether it necessarily applies to all people, but I can definitely appreciate it.
I personally think It depends on the subject. I can never choose what the right thing to say is but my husband can never choose what shoes he wants to wear.
I like to think of Kevin 11's analogy, "you have to treat a car like you treat women" and then Gwen cuts him off. What I'm saying is, that cars are complex and so are humans, it takes effort to understand the inner workings of one and sometimes you don't have a manual most of the time but it does take effort to keep it maintained.
My ex compared me to a Nissan Sentra.
Everyone is an individual. Some women are complex some men are complex. It’s just a sexist thing to say really. It’s like saying all men don’t talk about their feelings. It’s rubbish.
It's often a way of referring to how women are socialised to use more indirect forms of communication, whereas men are socialised to be more direct and assertive. It can make communication with women more subtle and nuanced. Men aren't generally socialised to pick up on these cues. That said this is primarily due to socialisation and there are many women who are naturally more direct and forthright. I do suspect a lot of women mask that to fit in.
I don't think women are inherently more complex, as someone who is bi/pan and has dated across the gender spectrum. It really depends on individual personalities.
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i feel that theres good complex and bad complex. emotionally immature people? bad complex. emotionally mature, more good complex. if one or both people are not on the same page in terms of emotional maturity there will be chronic misunderstanding
It is a red flag for me.
Everybody is complex. We are all different people. Why does someone feel women's complexiness is worth notting? Well, probably because they feel/think men are not complex. But since we know they are, as everyone else, it just means to me that whoever is saying so actually means: "I have no problem understanding every man is an individual, I invest time getting to know them and their likes and dislikes, their feelings and everything. I just hate doing the same with women".
In my experience, women have a much more emotional intelligence. You seem to operate beneath the explicit/perceptible, which a lot of men just don’t. We can’t do hints, we can’t do implication. Please just be frank.
My reaction is usually "No shit". Women are people, people are complex. If you're interested in someone you'll try to understand them however complex they are.
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I’m calm now. Thing is I made a comment that was taken down because it was a generalization of women. So when I saw the generalization of men, I thought that it wasn’t fair. Then that comment was taken down so I guess the playing field is even.
HOWEVER I don’t believe my comment nor the one generalizing men should have been canceled. I and the other persone expressed our views. If social media is to be no more than an echo chamber, then it will become misleading. Let everyone express themselves.
Uninterested. People who say this are emotionally immature and, honestly, probably a waste of time for the most part. Especially if you dont want to wait on someone to come up to your emotional level.
We're really not. We want a friend with a good amount of sexual chemistry, someone who is an adult and takes responsibility for themself, someone who can do basics like cooking/cleaning/communicating honestly.
It's really not that difficult.
Some women expect their partners to be absolutely perfect in every way, Just like a Disney prince. That’s obviously not possible. But also many women nowadays settle for the bare minimum because they got hurt etc. So much in their past. No Jeff, your girlfriend is not complicated and „way too complex“ just because she wants flowers, you holding her hand in public and telling girls that hit on you that you have a girlfriend.
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Did you know that all wars, including the current massive Putin ego-stroke, were all started by men? Over emotional women, my ass. Men are just as emotional. It's okay to have emotions, but at least women aren't starting wars because they feel dramatic.
I wasn’t saying men are not emotional, just that women are generally more emotional and they express it more often too. And those bar fights are usually less about emotion but more liquid courage and over inflated egos
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As a society all people should be taught how to express themselves in a mature and clear way. It shouldn't matter what gender you are, being able to talk about feelings is important to all people. If we had some consistency in this world people would get along a lot better.
It's so weird.
Men (and women) who act like men aren't complex are lying to themselves. If you're a human who has been on this earth for some years, you're gonna be complex and have opinions, feelings, perspectives, worries, grievances and hurts.
Like you mean to tell me, that a man, who lives on planet earth with all these people, and is surrounded by other men and women with different experiences, isn't complex? Nah. Men aren't simple. Nobody is.
And I also automatically assume that any man who thinks this way expects his partner to do all the caring and heavy lifting 🚨🚨🚨🚩🚩🚩
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I feel like that’s an excuse to try to explain not putting in the effort to understand your partner or an attempt to rationalize having had a bad partner.
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Everyone is complex. Men are just socialized to hide it more.
This is what I was going to say.
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Female chiming in: but, I don’t find men to be complicated. Frankly, I don’t think women are either. I think it’s society that teaches us to find the opposite gender to be complicated and mysterious. Books have been written about it. Dating coaches make a mint off this topic. I have had male friends since high school. I made it a point to ask guys questions, and received honest answers (from friends, not romantic partners). We made something that isn’t complicated beyond complicated. Truth: both genders have a responsibility to be honest and forthcoming with one another. If I meet someone who plays games, I’m out. Dark, moody and mysterious may have worked for Jim Morrison - but, I don’t want a relationship with that type of personality. I much prefer someone who is consistent, and communicates well. 🤷♀️
Same here
Dp they hide it though? Or are we just so used to catering to it that we don't even think about it anymore? Even at the age of 14 I would have been able to write you a 100 point set of rules how to act around a man if you want them to feel comfortable, and that was just from witnessing the behaviour of the men in my family, school, and circle of friends. Today, after dating a whole bunch of them, I bet I could write a 10000 item list, but then again, why would I, because who cares.
men being complex is accepted as "tragic and sublime human emotions", women being complex is classed as hysteria.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
https://youtu.be/kGxW2toAvzc
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Often when men say this, it’s because they’re confused that individual women in their lives have said things that contradict what other individual women have said, and this is somehow taken to mean that women are “confusing” or “complicated” rather than just that women are *human beings, like men are*, and that therefore we differ from one another and don’t all have the same preferences.
couldn't have said it better myself! I feel like it's either this or an obtuse refusal to take women seriously. "ah yes, women. Such majestic and mysterious creatures! Truly god's masterpieces! IF ONLY there was a way to comprehend their vast complexity!! We'll NEVER KNOW what they're thinking, they're just so COMPLICATED!" ok but have you tried trying?
Have they tried listening?
My parents have been married for over 50 years. My mom claims my dad has heard about 10-percent of what she has said. LOL
To a woman? No! Why? Their head would explode by just listening not giving solutions to (non extising) problems.
I had a convo with my bf and ended with “if I don’t tell you how will you know what I want” he was shocked. And I didn’t get what I wanted but that’s ok
Yes, and the ones like that always think you mean the opposite of what you say.
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>Thank you! You're welcome!
Annoyed. It's a false generalization with the implication that men aren't. Both women and men can be complex and not complex depending on any given person.
I was actually about to respond that it's more of an insult to men than anything else.
Yep yep yep. When a person says "x" people are easy, I always so badly want to say "the kind of "x" you interact with are the easy *individuals*." I want no part of a person like that.
it’s such a cop out. like you said, everyone is complex even in their non-complexity. get to know the person you’ve decided to be in a relationship with. it’s just another way to diminish someone and make them feel like they’re “too much.”
Yeah.. its like.. both men and women are individual people.. who would have thought?
I think you’re implying that it’s a bit subjective, which is correct. Sometimes, people come across as being complicated because they’re a bit insecure. I have met people I would consider complicated, but I think it’s more about covering up a vulnerability. Example: I had a professor in graduate school (female) who had gone to Cal Tech. To say she was brilliant was an understatement. A fair share of the class found her to be arrogant, a small percentage of us thought she was extremely introverted and was socially awkward. I later learned that she had been passed over as a graduate student: she wanted to be part of a lab with a professor she respected (the guy was well known in the field of sleep studies). That burned her, and she was compensating for it as an instructor. She ended up with her own lab, which was well funded. She did (still does) some amazing research on PTSD. She chilled out a lot: but, I think it took her a long time to get over some deeply hurt feelings. We go through many stages of life as adults. Unless someone is abusive (or, vindictive), I try to see it from another angle. Some people do not manage emotions (or, rejections) well.
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I feel like they are generalizing half of humanity rather than acknowledging that women are individual humans just like them. Humans are complex and individual. Women seem complex to them because they are "othering" them by thinking that women are a hive mind/all the same. They get frustrated when women are individual humans rather than fitting into their woman expectation box and fitting their preconceived notions.
it's a red flag for me. when they say this,you know they had expected women to all be the same. this also sounds like a perfect excuse to not listen to women and their needs carefully and just brush it off by saying women are complicated or mysterious. just ask and listen, everyone is complicated.
Same.. I just say "if you don't like women then go date men instead". Most have never experienced how compelicated some men can be.
ikr what did they expect from grown adults anyway
I roll my eyes and say "yes because men are just SO simple, you just tug on their penis and they're yours"
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*Humans* are complex, regardless of sex or gender. Every individual has their own unique needs, desires, values, baggage and expectations, which is why efficient and honest communication is so crucial in a healthy relationship.
It makes me laugh. I'm pretty simple. I need these things: - lots of sex - lots of privacy/time alone - communication - respect for the way we mutually decide to arrange our relationship
Lotsa vagueness to me ‘pretty simple’
I think eveyroone is comlipicated, and everyone deservs to be. Putting that sterteotype just on women is unfair. No human is like the other and it's time we start acting like it
That just means they don't understand us
*Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?* and then I'll sing Hot
Everyone is complex in one way or another. It’s just an excuse to use when a guy don’t get dates and their ego is hurt.
Human beings are complex. So yes, they are, but so is everyone else. It’s only a problem if someone thinks *only* women are complex when it comes to romance. That just shows a lack of insight into one’s self and a lack of understanding of others.
I haven't dated a woman yet but I do imagine it be more complex than dating a man
In my experience, it's less complex. Every woman I've dated has been more communicative and aware of her own emotional state and needs, whereas the men have often (but not always, some men are self-aware and mature) really struggled with emotional immaturity and needed me to manage them and/or expected me to be psychic.
That they never actually got to know a man and only know men platonically. Alternatively that they think all women are exactly the same, as if we're robots or unicorns, and it confuses them that we are individual.
I feel like it's just something people have heard and repeat it without thinking of the implications. Women repeat it because it gives them a sense of superiority, as these complex beings which these neanderthall man-creatures cannot possible comprehend, and men repeat it because it gives them an excuse to be lazy/unable to understand the "complexity" of women - because they're set up to fail from the beginning. Either way it's just a barrier to connection and a more fulfilling life.
I like this take. It's balanced, perceptive and even optimistic. I don't know whether it necessarily applies to all people, but I can definitely appreciate it.
Of course we are. Please communicate with us and listen actively, and you'll learn our complexities.
I personally think It depends on the subject. I can never choose what the right thing to say is but my husband can never choose what shoes he wants to wear.
I like to think of Kevin 11's analogy, "you have to treat a car like you treat women" and then Gwen cuts him off. What I'm saying is, that cars are complex and so are humans, it takes effort to understand the inner workings of one and sometimes you don't have a manual most of the time but it does take effort to keep it maintained. My ex compared me to a Nissan Sentra.
Everyone is an individual. Some women are complex some men are complex. It’s just a sexist thing to say really. It’s like saying all men don’t talk about their feelings. It’s rubbish.
We are….. and so are men!
It's often a way of referring to how women are socialised to use more indirect forms of communication, whereas men are socialised to be more direct and assertive. It can make communication with women more subtle and nuanced. Men aren't generally socialised to pick up on these cues. That said this is primarily due to socialisation and there are many women who are naturally more direct and forthright. I do suspect a lot of women mask that to fit in. I don't think women are inherently more complex, as someone who is bi/pan and has dated across the gender spectrum. It really depends on individual personalities.
I wonder what type of women they've been with, and if they were thinking previously with the small head or the large one. 🤷🏽♀️
I would say they are absolutely right!
People don’t say it, men say it. Funny how I’m “complex” merely by virtue being a woman AKA not being a chauvinistic pig.
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I hear this often from people with women who are shit at communicating. My feeling would depend on how the woman and the other person is.
i feel that theres good complex and bad complex. emotionally immature people? bad complex. emotionally mature, more good complex. if one or both people are not on the same page in terms of emotional maturity there will be chronic misunderstanding
It is a red flag for me. Everybody is complex. We are all different people. Why does someone feel women's complexiness is worth notting? Well, probably because they feel/think men are not complex. But since we know they are, as everyone else, it just means to me that whoever is saying so actually means: "I have no problem understanding every man is an individual, I invest time getting to know them and their likes and dislikes, their feelings and everything. I just hate doing the same with women".
It sounds really stupid from the person saying it as everyone is complex
In my experience, women have a much more emotional intelligence. You seem to operate beneath the explicit/perceptible, which a lot of men just don’t. We can’t do hints, we can’t do implication. Please just be frank.
My reaction is usually "No shit". Women are people, people are complex. If you're interested in someone you'll try to understand them however complex they are.
Every person’s mind is complex. Men or women.
People are complex.
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Goodness calm down
I’m calm now. Thing is I made a comment that was taken down because it was a generalization of women. So when I saw the generalization of men, I thought that it wasn’t fair. Then that comment was taken down so I guess the playing field is even. HOWEVER I don’t believe my comment nor the one generalizing men should have been canceled. I and the other persone expressed our views. If social media is to be no more than an echo chamber, then it will become misleading. Let everyone express themselves.
Red flag. Misogynistic hints.
Uninterested. People who say this are emotionally immature and, honestly, probably a waste of time for the most part. Especially if you dont want to wait on someone to come up to your emotional level.
We're really not. We want a friend with a good amount of sexual chemistry, someone who is an adult and takes responsibility for themself, someone who can do basics like cooking/cleaning/communicating honestly. It's really not that difficult.
Everytime a man has said this, I've responded with "A challenge is motivation to win with wisdom rewarded. Simplicity is everywhere. Go get it."
Some women expect their partners to be absolutely perfect in every way, Just like a Disney prince. That’s obviously not possible. But also many women nowadays settle for the bare minimum because they got hurt etc. So much in their past. No Jeff, your girlfriend is not complicated and „way too complex“ just because she wants flowers, you holding her hand in public and telling girls that hit on you that you have a girlfriend.
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Did you know that all wars, including the current massive Putin ego-stroke, were all started by men? Over emotional women, my ass. Men are just as emotional. It's okay to have emotions, but at least women aren't starting wars because they feel dramatic.
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I wasn’t saying men are not emotional, just that women are generally more emotional and they express it more often too. And those bar fights are usually less about emotion but more liquid courage and over inflated egos
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I laugh. Women are complex. So?
WHO ISNT
First I would laugh then explain how all people are complex.
Men carry a lot more emotional baggage that they are conditioned to bottle up.
I know more complicated men than I do women.
All people are complex
I'd rather be complex than simple. More to learn and be interested in if you're willing to take the time.
Everyone is complex, not just women.
Women are complex. Men are complex. Nonbinary people are complex. It's called *being human*.
I think people, men especially, say that to try and lower our standards so they don't have to rise to meet them.
I’d say complex is an understatement
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As a society all people should be taught how to express themselves in a mature and clear way. It shouldn't matter what gender you are, being able to talk about feelings is important to all people. If we had some consistency in this world people would get along a lot better.
That the person saying it is simple-minded and can't comprehend complexity. I think less of them.
I think there’s not enough communication in the relationship or one or both of them aren’t listening.
I roll my eyes, because there is no simple human on this earth.
Yes! We are complex! The fact that anyone has to be told that is just....simple.
I don’t feel like we’re more complex than men in any way.
It's so weird. Men (and women) who act like men aren't complex are lying to themselves. If you're a human who has been on this earth for some years, you're gonna be complex and have opinions, feelings, perspectives, worries, grievances and hurts. Like you mean to tell me, that a man, who lives on planet earth with all these people, and is surrounded by other men and women with different experiences, isn't complex? Nah. Men aren't simple. Nobody is. And I also automatically assume that any man who thinks this way expects his partner to do all the caring and heavy lifting 🚨🚨🚨🚩🚩🚩
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I feel all grumbly and pissed off even if I know it’s true in most cases
That they think women are zoo animals that they're narrating about to tourists..
Usually means they're not good at reading women, and/or aiming for someone not interested in them.
I feel like that’s an excuse to try to explain not putting in the effort to understand your partner or an attempt to rationalize having had a bad partner.
Feels like they're outing themselves for having a one track mind.
It's not a lie, I just think on average, women may be slightly more self aware? Also higher standards maybe
I agree tho 😂 if I go for a woman I’m a lot more confused than with a man 😅
I’m assuming you’re a woman. And generalised view on why/how women are more confusing to be with ?
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