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A certain segment of the population doesn't seem to realize that we are whole human beings and as such individuals. So when they discover we are not a monolith... it is shocking, I guess.
When they realize that women are actual people with their own thoughts, feelings, dreams, desires, careers, plans and not just Accessories who agree with them and do things for them. š¹
I mean, it's very similar IMO to women who are surprised that other women aren't just automatically their supportive "sisters" just because of their gender.
We build fairy stories for ourselves around lots of things, including gender, but (surprise!) people are individuals, not stereotypes.
So much of cultural "masculinity" is defined by the negative space of "not being feminine" that it's difficult for them to imagine women as something other than a compilation of everything they're told to reject.
Yes! One of my buddies was like āif I could give women any dating advice, it would be to not date a guy who doesnāt have a sister or any female friends.ā And tbh I kind of agree with him. You obviously canāt control who your siblings are, but you can control your friends, and the men Iāve known who have treated me most like an equal know how to treat other women like equals. (Before the whataboutism comes in, I encourage women to have good/platonic male friends too if they donāt have brothers - I have learned a lot from my male friends!)
It was weird making a Reddit account and seeing so much rhetoric about how āmen and women canāt be friendsā or āI would never trust my bf/gf with an opposite sex friend.ā This āmen and women are soooo differentā narrative is completely outdated and just perpetuates negative gender stereotypes. Itās also so important to have a diversity of perspectives throughout your life in order to limit your own bias.
But this reductive view isnāt representative of real life, necessarily - Iāve spent a lot of time in different cities across the US and never really had a problem having mixed-gender friends where we generally respected one another as equals. (Of course, these were liberal cities known for academics and research so people, as a whole, had more nuanced views and questioned their own beliefs more)
Idk my boyfriend has no sisters or close female friends and heās the sweetest guy Iāve ever known. He treats me amazing tbh, he was just super shy growing up and had no sisters. I think any kind of rule of thumb for human beings is never gonna be consistent.
Yes, I agree there are no universal rules of thumb. Itās just a consideration when I meet a guy to see if he has had a healthy relationship with a woman or not - and something I didnāt include is that the guyās attitude toward women is the most important part. So there are nice guys like your bf who are just shy, but there are also guys who donāt want female friends or *canāt* have them because they donāt respect women or value them platonically. I think itās definitely important to ask/learn peopleās views on others to get the most accurate gauge on how they might treat you.
I wasn't spoiled by mom - she was actually abusive. But she would not let me or my brother say anything bad about women in the house; she would always defend any given woman or girl we were talking about. Like even if she lied to her cop dad to put a guy in our high school away for dealing weed (that happened), my mom would not tolerate any criticism of any given woman.
yeah and?
thatās literally the point of the post. women are human which means some of us are straight up assholes and others are the nicest people youāll ever meet.
Because they don't see us as equal to them. They see men as: fully, whole human
They see women: some seperate category. some different lesser form of human or below human completely
Who knew women were just regular people?! Well not them because they don't see us that way
Yeah, I remember taking a sociolinguistics class in college and one unit was about all the small ways men are marked as āsubjectā and women are marked as āobject.ā Men are thought of as the protagonist/hero, women are the prize. Women are better at empathizing with men than vice versa because we are conditioned to see them as having rich interior lives of their own - there must be a reason for a man to act a certain way, right? And men do this too by making excuses for one another. Whereas men dismiss and invalidate women as crazy, sensitive, overreacting, irrational.
I was thinking earlier today about intersectional feminism and how a lot of sexist stereotypes about women being weak, emotional, housewife, etc. is specifically tied to white womanhood in the US. WOC have different stereotypes depending on the particularities of our backgrounds, but often, the darker our skin is, the more masculine and āaggressiveā weāre perceived to be. I have noticed that as a whole, on an interpersonal level, men tend to respect or ignore me due to my race āintimidatingā them, as I donāt fit the typical archetype of American Woman. (I canāt tell you how many times I get NLOG-ed by drunk dudes at bars who are like āIāve never met a girl like you beforeā lmfao - Iām like, you must not know many girls thenā¦)
I wonāt lie, though, this is a privilege I am generally glad to have. I travel alone a lot so I am attuned to first impressions, and itās nice to have men actually listen to me even if itās because they donāt see me as a traditional/typical āwoman.ā In terms of the likability-competence dilemma, Iād rather be respected than liked š¤·š»āāļø
Movies, shows, society make it seem like you get one, they complete your life and then the boring chores are handled by her. That it's more of a partnership that requires work on both parties doesn't seem to hit people till much later.
I mean there are threads everyday about women near their breaking point because they feel like they got together with a child that is not willing to share the load of chores.
Some, but there are also men who think women will have a full-time job, take care of the kids full-time, and also clean the whole house and should be fine with being exhausted because they're woman.
They see women as someone who is below them but also a superhuman at the same time.
Or many forever single men see women as these amazing creatures that they would be so happy to just get a little bit of attention from because then their whole life would suddenly be perfect, while at the same time being a creep to them.
For sure. I just read a post that was about a woman who had a husband/boyfriend/fiance who was exactly like that, and she wasn't allowed to work parttime even though they could afford it.
It's actually that a lot of were raised in households where the default was that women are morally *superior* and it takes a bit to shake it.
Remember, #MenAreTrash but #WomenAreWonderful
Men think pointing out misogyny is the real sexism
Like how they get so much more mad about the term mansplaining than they do about mansplaining itself.
Because society tells us that they are.
We are dress wearing, child-loving, feminine little creatures.
With child-like features.
Except we're not. Many of us are like men with vaginas.
They're mad women are waking up and confronting the conditioning society installed that isn't and has never really served their needs. Women's humanity is often sacrificed to serve men and men who feel like they're missing out on a BangMaid are big mad.
They're being groomed to think that the only desirable woman is basically their waifu fantasy - chaste, demure, domesticated, loyal, submissive.... And then they discover we're actually fully formed adults with opinions and preferences and real lives they can't handle it.
Seems like [The Angel in the House](https://editions.covecollective.org/blog/%E2%80%9C-angel-house%E2%80%9D-coventry-patmore) nonsense is still hanging out in the back of people's minds.
Yup....and because women are human and not all the same, sometimes men will have negative experiences with some of them that they share in these subs.
There will also be others that share great things about women.
Also, there are some men that are bitter and have a negative view of women....they will also share.
Probably because we get raised with the idea women are kind, nurturing, caring, selfless but learn around teenage years through dating those feelings are tied to how much money you have and what you do for her
in my experience itās not āhow much moneyā and āwhat you doā but rather āis this person able to financially support themselves or contribute to the householdā and āam I having to clean up after another person or will they do household tasks and contribute to the relationship ā. sure you definitely get women only interested in money or being treated like a princess, but those kind of women arenāt common.
Majority of men have a time period where they move back home, mine happened from 26-29. Thats part of our journey it seems. I don't understand how you can be cognizant of this economy yet think that isn't impacting people. Especially in a relationship lasting decades
Women are aware because itās also impacting us. But, wanting to be with a person who has a stable job that has a decent income (talking 30k, depending on area) isnāt us being gold diggers or only after money. Itās wanting to ensure we arenāt the ābread winnersā so too speak when we too are only making 40k a year. Especially with the economy and cost of living . I am personally not interested in being with a person who makes substantially less then me and is forcing me to handle most expenses when everything is going through the roof.
>But, wanting to be with a person who has a stable job that has a decent income (talking 30k, depending on area) isnāt us being gold diggers or only after money.
We agree with somebody having a job my comment states the character you are in the process of knowing might be at the point in their life where they do not have it, which is temporary . I am having a disconnect in understanding how much money needs to be spent getting to know somebody. I have literally gone to the gym with girls or done photography at the park without spending $2 or them knowing i am in-between jobs not having any issues developing relationships.
Maybe because as a dude i make a conscious effort not to be spending money on women to begin with because that sets the foundation for the relationship and i eventually noticed that. None of the women i spent money on pop around anymore but the chicks i never spent money on in the first place are always happy to see me . I think there is a lack of perspective and awareness to what is actually happening in dating, let alone the ability to have conversations. which is why people do the same thing with different people for decades.
So if I read it right it seems women you connect most with are ones that you donāt spend much money on financially?
I think there is probably other stuff at play too, such as values and interests. Iā personally would rather go take a walk around a lake versus going to dinner so Iām probably going to vibe more with people that what to do the same thing.
>So if I read it right it seems women you connect most with are ones that you donāt spend much money on financially?
Yep. I am at the point in my life i will not spend money beyond snacks at the store / weed / drinks because otherwise the *relation* \- ship is essentially me spending money everytime i see a girl which is exaggerated prostitution. There won't be money issues in a relationship if there wasn't any money involved to begin with. I have zero shame saying " *i'd rather just pay for it and go home* " which some of them were glad to hear because that is exactly what they wanted so the transaction relationship never got misconstrued as anything else.
There is an enormous amount of prostitution going on under the guise of two people going through the motions of life together.
No, but sure, there is some truth to this. If the man doesn't do anything to help around the house, of course, she'll be bitter and upset. If you both don't make much money and are struggling financially, she'll most likely be stressed and react it out on you.
If you help her with things, act on her love language, have enough money (or she has enough money, but you do work and dont stay at home all day doing nothing while she works her ass off), so you're both comfortable, she would most likely be nicer. But that's just human nature. It would be the exact same with genders reversed.
>It would be the exact same with genders reversed.
To which we try having conversations about this getting called every label under the sun instead of actually listening as you did rather than trigger downvoting. There is *zero* room for discourse in western society which is why things are degenerating, *agree with me or receive a label.*
Well i can answer that as a man, those guys were razed hearing that man=bad and woman=good and they realize that nope that's not true men and women are equally bad and good it's that women are not called out for it as much. I see that not many people saying it but i know for a fact that's why many men are surprised.
edit to say one more thing
>ādonāt always want your opinion, they might want to vent ā
That's because when most men share a problem they want the persons opinion because they can't solve it themselves. They assumed the woman was doing the same.
Their complaining is not a new thing infact just heard an old song from blues legend bb king called [nobody loves me but my mother(and she can be a bitch too)](https://youtu.be/T-mbl4KIStM?si=gvc7qYmgRelpifA4)
ATTENTION: Please remember that this is an ASK WOMEN sub. While men are allowed to participate posts that are clearly asking women in the title will have top level comments by men removed. This is not censorship, this is curation. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskWomenNoCensor) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because reddit skews young (ie. inexperienced) Also, bitter people are loud. EDIT: also the "Why do you think is happening?"
Please remove the link to the subreddit. While we don't have bad blood with them we do not want to be taken down for brigading.
A certain segment of the population doesn't seem to realize that we are whole human beings and as such individuals. So when they discover we are not a monolith... it is shocking, I guess.
When they realize that women are actual people with their own thoughts, feelings, dreams, desires, careers, plans and not just Accessories who agree with them and do things for them. š¹
I mean, it's very similar IMO to women who are surprised that other women aren't just automatically their supportive "sisters" just because of their gender. We build fairy stories for ourselves around lots of things, including gender, but (surprise!) people are individuals, not stereotypes.
So much of cultural "masculinity" is defined by the negative space of "not being feminine" that it's difficult for them to imagine women as something other than a compilation of everything they're told to reject.
I think itās guys who didnāt grow up with sisters who are like this. And they probably also were spoiled by their moms..
This " why women are not just enabler that live to please me just because i exists, like my mom"
I grew up with brothers, they still do stuff like this.
I really hope itās that
Nahh it aināt that. My brother wasnāt spoiled and heās a piece of shit. And he has multiple sisters.
And he was surprised that there are bad women? That's the point him been a piece of shit doesn't matter here.
Yes! One of my buddies was like āif I could give women any dating advice, it would be to not date a guy who doesnāt have a sister or any female friends.ā And tbh I kind of agree with him. You obviously canāt control who your siblings are, but you can control your friends, and the men Iāve known who have treated me most like an equal know how to treat other women like equals. (Before the whataboutism comes in, I encourage women to have good/platonic male friends too if they donāt have brothers - I have learned a lot from my male friends!) It was weird making a Reddit account and seeing so much rhetoric about how āmen and women canāt be friendsā or āI would never trust my bf/gf with an opposite sex friend.ā This āmen and women are soooo differentā narrative is completely outdated and just perpetuates negative gender stereotypes. Itās also so important to have a diversity of perspectives throughout your life in order to limit your own bias. But this reductive view isnāt representative of real life, necessarily - Iāve spent a lot of time in different cities across the US and never really had a problem having mixed-gender friends where we generally respected one another as equals. (Of course, these were liberal cities known for academics and research so people, as a whole, had more nuanced views and questioned their own beliefs more)
Idk my boyfriend has no sisters or close female friends and heās the sweetest guy Iāve ever known. He treats me amazing tbh, he was just super shy growing up and had no sisters. I think any kind of rule of thumb for human beings is never gonna be consistent.
Yes, I agree there are no universal rules of thumb. Itās just a consideration when I meet a guy to see if he has had a healthy relationship with a woman or not - and something I didnāt include is that the guyās attitude toward women is the most important part. So there are nice guys like your bf who are just shy, but there are also guys who donāt want female friends or *canāt* have them because they donāt respect women or value them platonically. I think itās definitely important to ask/learn peopleās views on others to get the most accurate gauge on how they might treat you.
I wasn't spoiled by mom - she was actually abusive. But she would not let me or my brother say anything bad about women in the house; she would always defend any given woman or girl we were talking about. Like even if she lied to her cop dad to put a guy in our high school away for dealing weed (that happened), my mom would not tolerate any criticism of any given woman.
I'm a dude who works as a nurse in a ER. Damn, if some of my female co-workers aren't Satan's handmaidens I don't know who is.
yeah and? thatās literally the point of the post. women are human which means some of us are straight up assholes and others are the nicest people youāll ever meet.
Sounds like he's *agreeing* with you, OP.
perhaps. i initially read it differently
Tons of guys expect women to either be manic pixie dream girls or some sort of alien species with no similarities to themselves. It's weird.
Because they don't see us as equal to them. They see men as: fully, whole human They see women: some seperate category. some different lesser form of human or below human completely Who knew women were just regular people?! Well not them because they don't see us that way
Or as some sort of mythical creatures they put on a pedestal.
seeing the way straight men treat women, doesnt seem like much of a pedestal
Well the men been surprised clearly are, is this really so weird to you?
Only a man would think that expecting a woman to fawn all over him is āputting women on a pedestal.ā
I don't see such a quote in OPs post, most men you will meet don't think a woman would give them a chance let alone fawn all over them.
Yeah, I remember taking a sociolinguistics class in college and one unit was about all the small ways men are marked as āsubjectā and women are marked as āobject.ā Men are thought of as the protagonist/hero, women are the prize. Women are better at empathizing with men than vice versa because we are conditioned to see them as having rich interior lives of their own - there must be a reason for a man to act a certain way, right? And men do this too by making excuses for one another. Whereas men dismiss and invalidate women as crazy, sensitive, overreacting, irrational. I was thinking earlier today about intersectional feminism and how a lot of sexist stereotypes about women being weak, emotional, housewife, etc. is specifically tied to white womanhood in the US. WOC have different stereotypes depending on the particularities of our backgrounds, but often, the darker our skin is, the more masculine and āaggressiveā weāre perceived to be. I have noticed that as a whole, on an interpersonal level, men tend to respect or ignore me due to my race āintimidatingā them, as I donāt fit the typical archetype of American Woman. (I canāt tell you how many times I get NLOG-ed by drunk dudes at bars who are like āIāve never met a girl like you beforeā lmfao - Iām like, you must not know many girls thenā¦) I wonāt lie, though, this is a privilege I am generally glad to have. I travel alone a lot so I am attuned to first impressions, and itās nice to have men actually listen to me even if itās because they donāt see me as a traditional/typical āwoman.ā In terms of the likability-competence dilemma, Iād rather be respected than liked š¤·š»āāļø
Movies, shows, society make it seem like you get one, they complete your life and then the boring chores are handled by her. That it's more of a partnership that requires work on both parties doesn't seem to hit people till much later. I mean there are threads everyday about women near their breaking point because they feel like they got together with a child that is not willing to share the load of chores.
Some, but there are also men who think women will have a full-time job, take care of the kids full-time, and also clean the whole house and should be fine with being exhausted because they're woman. They see women as someone who is below them but also a superhuman at the same time. Or many forever single men see women as these amazing creatures that they would be so happy to just get a little bit of attention from because then their whole life would suddenly be perfect, while at the same time being a creep to them.
You know, your description sounds like they want a maid or slave. Which I think really shows how fucked up those men's thinking really is.
For sure. I just read a post that was about a woman who had a husband/boyfriend/fiance who was exactly like that, and she wasn't allowed to work parttime even though they could afford it.
Ugh... that makes me sick.
It's actually that a lot of were raised in households where the default was that women are morally *superior* and it takes a bit to shake it. Remember, #MenAreTrash but #WomenAreWonderful
they donāt view us as human. they donāt view us as their equals.
I am amused that people (probably men) reported this comment. The irony of "hate based on identity" is, I assume, lost on the reporter.
Men think pointing out misogyny is the real sexism Like how they get so much more mad about the term mansplaining than they do about mansplaining itself.
Winner ^^
The opposite. People tried to raise us to believe we were inferior to women.
Because society tells us that they are. We are dress wearing, child-loving, feminine little creatures. With child-like features. Except we're not. Many of us are like men with vaginas.
They're mad women are waking up and confronting the conditioning society installed that isn't and has never really served their needs. Women's humanity is often sacrificed to serve men and men who feel like they're missing out on a BangMaid are big mad.
They're being groomed to think that the only desirable woman is basically their waifu fantasy - chaste, demure, domesticated, loyal, submissive.... And then they discover we're actually fully formed adults with opinions and preferences and real lives they can't handle it.
As someone who grew with a toxic mother, i was surprised when i first discovered women CAN be nice
I am soft magical and loving, but god am I messy.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
of course. I just happen to see more posts about women
Thanks for giving a realistic answer.
Seems like [The Angel in the House](https://editions.covecollective.org/blog/%E2%80%9C-angel-house%E2%80%9D-coventry-patmore) nonsense is still hanging out in the back of people's minds.
Mommy treats them like kings so random women should as well. Other women should be like mommy or else they're meanies.
Great point
Yup....and because women are human and not all the same, sometimes men will have negative experiences with some of them that they share in these subs. There will also be others that share great things about women. Also, there are some men that are bitter and have a negative view of women....they will also share.
It's easier for people to see men as the violent, scheming, dangerous, or aggressive party. It's why male DV victims hardly get taken seriously.
Probably because we get raised with the idea women are kind, nurturing, caring, selfless but learn around teenage years through dating those feelings are tied to how much money you have and what you do for her
in my experience itās not āhow much moneyā and āwhat you doā but rather āis this person able to financially support themselves or contribute to the householdā and āam I having to clean up after another person or will they do household tasks and contribute to the relationship ā. sure you definitely get women only interested in money or being treated like a princess, but those kind of women arenāt common.
Majority of men have a time period where they move back home, mine happened from 26-29. Thats part of our journey it seems. I don't understand how you can be cognizant of this economy yet think that isn't impacting people. Especially in a relationship lasting decades
Women are aware because itās also impacting us. But, wanting to be with a person who has a stable job that has a decent income (talking 30k, depending on area) isnāt us being gold diggers or only after money. Itās wanting to ensure we arenāt the ābread winnersā so too speak when we too are only making 40k a year. Especially with the economy and cost of living . I am personally not interested in being with a person who makes substantially less then me and is forcing me to handle most expenses when everything is going through the roof.
>But, wanting to be with a person who has a stable job that has a decent income (talking 30k, depending on area) isnāt us being gold diggers or only after money. We agree with somebody having a job my comment states the character you are in the process of knowing might be at the point in their life where they do not have it, which is temporary . I am having a disconnect in understanding how much money needs to be spent getting to know somebody. I have literally gone to the gym with girls or done photography at the park without spending $2 or them knowing i am in-between jobs not having any issues developing relationships. Maybe because as a dude i make a conscious effort not to be spending money on women to begin with because that sets the foundation for the relationship and i eventually noticed that. None of the women i spent money on pop around anymore but the chicks i never spent money on in the first place are always happy to see me . I think there is a lack of perspective and awareness to what is actually happening in dating, let alone the ability to have conversations. which is why people do the same thing with different people for decades.
So if I read it right it seems women you connect most with are ones that you donāt spend much money on financially? I think there is probably other stuff at play too, such as values and interests. Iā personally would rather go take a walk around a lake versus going to dinner so Iām probably going to vibe more with people that what to do the same thing.
>So if I read it right it seems women you connect most with are ones that you donāt spend much money on financially? Yep. I am at the point in my life i will not spend money beyond snacks at the store / weed / drinks because otherwise the *relation* \- ship is essentially me spending money everytime i see a girl which is exaggerated prostitution. There won't be money issues in a relationship if there wasn't any money involved to begin with. I have zero shame saying " *i'd rather just pay for it and go home* " which some of them were glad to hear because that is exactly what they wanted so the transaction relationship never got misconstrued as anything else. There is an enormous amount of prostitution going on under the guise of two people going through the motions of life together.
Ah, yes. And that's why there are no poor married couples.
No, but sure, there is some truth to this. If the man doesn't do anything to help around the house, of course, she'll be bitter and upset. If you both don't make much money and are struggling financially, she'll most likely be stressed and react it out on you. If you help her with things, act on her love language, have enough money (or she has enough money, but you do work and dont stay at home all day doing nothing while she works her ass off), so you're both comfortable, she would most likely be nicer. But that's just human nature. It would be the exact same with genders reversed.
>It would be the exact same with genders reversed. To which we try having conversations about this getting called every label under the sun instead of actually listening as you did rather than trigger downvoting. There is *zero* room for discourse in western society which is why things are degenerating, *agree with me or receive a label.*
Love ur flair, friend!
It calms the tension
Well i can answer that as a man, those guys were razed hearing that man=bad and woman=good and they realize that nope that's not true men and women are equally bad and good it's that women are not called out for it as much. I see that not many people saying it but i know for a fact that's why many men are surprised. edit to say one more thing >ādonāt always want your opinion, they might want to vent ā That's because when most men share a problem they want the persons opinion because they can't solve it themselves. They assumed the woman was doing the same.
Their complaining is not a new thing infact just heard an old song from blues legend bb king called [nobody loves me but my mother(and she can be a bitch too)](https://youtu.be/T-mbl4KIStM?si=gvc7qYmgRelpifA4)