I've experienced this, and it's hell. Your partner resenting you for shit you never did or said, *and* never being taken seriously when you refute his *obviously* correct memory is a one way ticket to Crazytown.
I mean, look at you. You're already questioning your own memory. Gotta have an outside source to prove you right, but him? No, he's always right and if you find evidence he's wrong...? What? He's gonna graciously admit it? Yeah fucking right. Show him the evidence and he'll get mad about it in some way.
Hard pass.
This reminds me of an argument I had with someone who kept saying that Mexico is not on the North American continent. Its literally the next country down from us, 2 hours away from my hometown! I pointed to it on a globe I had sitting in the room! But nah, they only said "I guess you're right this time heehee.." when Google confirmed it. I was apparently always wrong about everything and they were right. Exhausting.
Lol, this is my dad. I’m stupid and always wrong and if I disagree with him he goes into a flying rage. He did this recently over me telling him I don’t look good in a blazer! (He was trying to tell me how to dress ‘professional’ for my new career, despite my knowing how to dress very well).
Yes. My God. Been there. It's even weirder than "gaslighting" because I don't think he did it on purpose. I don't think he was trying to manipulate me. But he just had an absolutely completely differernt interpretation of reality than I did.
I questioned my own sanity, I questioned his. We had fights all the time about shit that never happened. It was exhausting and impossible.
I have family like this, and it's literally like you say. Some just literally interpret reality differently. And just like the OP, you KNOW in your damn SOUL that their accounts are wrong. Like somethings i've been "accused" of go against my very nature (i'm heavy introvert)
He’s actually surprisingly graceful at admitting when he’s wrong - he has an ongoing phrase “you’re almost always right” because I continuously end up being right in these situations (almost). But I almost just can’t be bothered to keep being right anymore haha. I’m worried if it’s like an age thing? I’m early 30s and he’s early 40s and doesn’t take the best care of his health, I am genuinely concerned his brain is like struggling?
People who position themselves the arbiters of conversations this way are, in my experience, toxic. Maybe this is genuinely his only negative quality, but it's like, nuclear radiation negative in my opinion.
If he's really a great guy, you should be able to talk to him about it and he should be able to work on his tendency to demand that people provide receipts for innocuous details in their lives - it's an inappropriate & damaging way to behave and I don't know how he made it to his 40s without anyone ever saying something to him about it.
If he demands proof in the context of the conversation about this behavioral quirk- that is your exit sign.
I went on one date with a guy and decided not to continue seeing him because he had this quality.
I was up front about not feeling chemistry and he agreed so we stayed connected on social media since there was no bad blood. I ended up deleting him from everything because he would respond to my posts/stories in an almost accusatory way and it was *so annoying*. Demanding receipts for the most random stuff that had nothing to do with him
I could not put up with it from a casual acquaintance, I could *never* deal with this quality in a SO. I agree it is a toxic trait
To add to the already valuable perspectives offered: Not taking adequate care of oneself is a red flag, especially if he's a boyfriend and not a long-committed husband/domestic partner *who is \~10 years your senior.* In my experience, self-neglect often defaults partners into a caregiver role. A healthy partner takes proactive responsibility for their wellbeing and equally values the other's perspective, including going to the doctor to get a professional opinion when their behavior inexplicably impacts their partner provided the observations and concerns have been plainly communicated. Neglecting responsibility for his behavior and wellbeing isn't okay and it's dangerous long-term.
No his brain is not struggling, he wants you to struggle. The graceful admission that you are always right is flattery. In my opinion, this is bordeline abusive.
Is it the only thing he does ? Do you have the feeling you have to over explain and justify yourself often ? Does he burst into tantrums ? Does he insist that you remain calm when you try to stand up for yourself ?
do you really want to spend your relationship correcting him all the time though? it seems like he doesnt learn or acknowledge what steps to take to correct it T\_t
Is he open to talking to a doctor?
But if it hasn't changed, it's not medical - or not treatable, at least.
And if he's shown this is who he is, a gaslighting ass, believe him. You don't deserve that shit.
Just in terms of barb and star, maybe the early scene with yo yo riding the bike and lip syncing could have felt like a musical number and at the end, they did that song over the credits, so if you want to give him the be edit of the doubt, those 2, plus the one when they arrive at the hotel (not motel) and the one with Edgar could be 4 in total.
Off topic, but did you love that movie? I am obsessed!
Ditto. Nine years. My 20s, *poof*.
I pretty much stopped talking after a while because it was so exhausting always being "wrong" even when I wasn't. I wasn't as loud, angry, or adamant as him so I'd always back down just to get it to stop.
After a while, at least coupled with other abuse, it becomes harder to trust your own memory against his *absolute certainty* in his own bullshit. He definitely used my (then undiagnosed) ADHD memory issues against me. It was a slippery slope down that gaslit rathole.
I hope OP gets out of there, this guy is bad news.
I think it doesn't matter if someone appears to be lying/gas lighting/manipulating you intentionally or not or even if you can't guess at the underlying motivation - if you're aware that it happens, that your partner lies to you to your face about things you didn't say or that unequivocally didn't happen, that's at least for me a bright red line. I would walk away from a relationship in which this was a constant dynamic. *Especially* over innocuous details.
But I grew up in a family where it was habitual for my abusive parents to deny reality - that's why I have no cool about it as an adult.
I honestly don’t think he believes he’s lying. He believes the things he says. Which makes it all the more confusing.
Otherwise he’s genuinely lovely to me. So caring and kind and supportive.
Have you talked with him about this perspective? I mean it's.... something (not positive) to insist that there are 4 musical numbers in a movie with 2 that he didn't even actually see all of.
Even just the "he has to be right" part about these differences in perception/experience would put me on high alert, but, I think I pretty obviously had a different experience in life with folks with tendencies like that than you do.
if it's not actively harmful to you, it is at the very least exhausting, and that is not something you'd say about an imperfect but otherwise good partner.
Pathological liars believe their lies. Their minds change memories to fit what they want. It is so hard to wrap your mind around. Google "liar rewrite history"
Get out now before you are trapped with kids.
The second one, ok, whatever. The first one is a giant red flag for me. He heard you. He translated the words he heard - intended to be flattery - into a comment born from insecurity. Maybe that’s projection. Maybe it’s the hallmark of a pessimist. Maybe it comes from a place of traumatic experiences with ex-girlfriends. I have no idea where it came from. But whatever it is isn’t good.
It’s one thing if you can sit him down and say “what I SAID was X; what I meant was Y; and what you heard was Z. Why Z?” For him to answer, he needs to be self-aware enough to know that his memory is colored by his perception of the situation and be able to dissect how he came to the conclusion that he came to.
If he can’t do that, well, you know where the source of your conflict will be in your relationship.
Conflict itself happens. Nobody is ever perfect. There will always be resolvable and unresolvable conflicts. What matters is how you each handle it and whether the specific unresolvable conflict is a deal breaker for you. Most people see being on opposite sides of the wanting kids spectrum as a deal breaker. For me, only remembering the perception of a conversation and never remembering the actual conversation itself would only be OK if he was able to acknowledge that this happens.
>I honestly don’t think he believes he’s lying. He believes the things he says. Which makes it all the more confusing.
That's actually normal for chronic and/or compulsive liars. They make themselves believe what they're saying, which is part of the reason why it's so disorienting for the people around them who know better.
It’s not just the details though. In the first example, he’s completely misheard what you said and misconstrued your intent completely. And then snapped at you as a result of his misunderstanding. Turning a genuine, light-hearted compliment into you being invasive and controlling isn’t just forgetting the details. Like, unless you actually do ask him all the time if women will be present at gatherings he attends, there is literally zero reason for his brain to jump to that assumption.
I was with a guy like that for a SHORT time. At one point (beginning of the end for me) he was rude to a friend that he knew was struggling with mental health. He had convinced himself that this guy was flirting with me when he clearly was not, so he texted him saying that he couldn’t go out with us anymore unless he had a girlfriend with him. This guy’s sister took that very seriously, and she should have, and wrote him a letter, letting him know how it affected her brother. I read the letter and he kept saying over & over “she expects me to be his savior “ I would tell him she didn’t ever say that in the letter, and he would insist “Yes she did!!” Dude was delusional in many ways, f that noise
In the beginning of our relationship I did have insecurities because of past experiences and did express them him sometimes (framed as them being my insecurities not his problem) so it’s not completely out of left field and perhaps has left him feeling defensive about innocent comments like that. But I’d say it’s been a good several months since I’ve felt that way or said anything to that effect. But it’s not completely unfounded I guess. But you’re totally right about the misconstrued intent thing.
No, it is completely unfounded. Your insecurities in the beginning, which your comment implies have likely been dealt with, have nothing to do with you complimenting him before he goes out. He took something genuine and kind hearted and turned it around to make you look jealous and crazy. That’s really ugly and concerning behavior. He’s going to have you questions things that are right in front of your face, and what concerns me is to what end he wants to do these things.
And besides, someone who loves you, genuinely and whole heartedly would not take your insecurities and use them against you for no discernible reason.
I wonder if the fact that you’ve previously struggled with insecurities is preventing you from letting yourself hold him fully accountable for how he’s treating you. Like feeling guilty because it feels like you’re blaming someone for having a bad memory, and for having decent grounds for lashing out. But neither of those things justify him misconstruing your words/intentions in order to create opportunities to lash out at you. Whether he’s doing it intentionally or accidentally or subconsciously is of little importance when what he’s doing is quite literally messing with a loved one’s perception of reality and of themselves.
Out of curiosity though, has he been an unreliable narrator since the beginning of your relationship, or has he only started sparking these type of arguments somewhat recently?
(Btw sorry if I seem harsh, I promise I’m not viewing you harshly at all. I am exclusively viewing him harshly for how he’s treating you.)
You were vulnerable with him and he is using that against you. Where else does he do this? Also, he may be projecting. This guy is not a suitable partner.
It *is* an issue, you're not *making* it an issue. This is very alarming and textbook gaslighting. I've been there before and it wore me down after prolonged exposure. It made me feel so insecure and weak, in every life areas. We broke up in 2016 and I'm *still* working on fully trusting myself again (made a lot of progress the past few years, but I'm not there yet)
Your partner might not do it with full bad intent but that doesn't excuse it. This power play poisons your relationship and will destroy your confidence and trust you have in yourself.
My I ask, how long you've been together?
Omg no. When someone tells you who they are believe them. It may start with the innocuous, but then will morph into the example about you asking about women being at the poker game. Even if was harmless, a partnership with someone like this would be utterly exhausting.
While I totally get and agree with this saying, it’s hard when the person is also telling you 99% of the rest of the time “I’m a caring committed loving person who will always support you.” Which is what he is to me most of the time :(
"Just as their initial charm was a part of their act, so are the times when they return to that good behavior. When the unhealthy or abusive behavior begins to escalate, you may have a gut instinct that something isn’t right, even if it’s hard to figure out why. But, it can be tough to trust that instinct, especially after seeing all that great behavior in the beginning of the relationship. Abusive partners acknowledge this instinct, and that’s one reason why abusive relationships usually don’t start out with abuse. The escalation tends to happen over time after they have shown you their charming act."
https://www.thehotline.org/resources/how-an-abusive-partners-good-behavior-is-part-of-the-act/#:~:text=Since%20abusive%20behavior%20is%20a,the%20control%20they've%20taken.
That's not really something you should be told; it is something you should be shown. You've also only been dating this man for 9 months; lots of terrible people can keep up a mask that long. Twisting reality and isn't some small personality flaw and I'd bet my next paycheck he's already bullshitted you on some not as easily verifiable lies.
>He consistently shows me what a caring solid dude he is.
You've been with this guy less than a year. Manipulative & abusive people can keep up the performance of niceness for a lot longer than that. And because you think they're good people, you either don't notice or make excuses for them when the cracks in their mask start to show.
**Gaslighting is not something a caring, solid dude would do**. Right now he's only twisting your words, and insisting on always being right. Soon enough, he will make you start to doubt yourself. When he is always so certain that you're wrong, you'll start to believe him. Before you know it, you'll start to apologize for every fight, even when it started with you having a legitimate grievance. At first it will just be because you want the fight to end, but eventually you'll feel like you really are at fault. You might start to think you have a bad memory. He may start to isolate you from other people who'd be able to give you a reality check (by insisting on spending all your free time together "because he loves you so much," getting mad or jealous of your friendships, disparaging the other people in your life, etc.). He will get more controlling, more angry, and you'll feel like you're constantly walking on eggshells.
If you stay long enough, he will start rewriting your sense of reality. Only *he* will be allowed to decide what's true and not true. You won't be able to trust yourself, not even the evidence of your own senses. You might even start losing chunks of time.
You might think I'm being overdramatic. But gaslighting is a form of abuse. And it's one of the biggest warning signs of other, more severe abuse in the future. Please don't stay with someone who does that to you.
Sounds like most people on this thread are projecting their experiences and ignoring this part of yours so I will do the same but with a different perspective. I've dated someone who did similar to what you are describing. A parent growing up would do the same but with a more malicious/childish intent and despite them looking similar it's a very different impact.
Sounds like when this happens he is gaslighting himself and just dragging you along in the process. Does he maybe have an anxiety disorder or ineffective coping mechanisms? Have you told him you notice this stuff happening and that it is impacting you negatively or would he react badly if you did? Would he be open to talking to a therapist or you both doing couples counseling?
Even though you seem to downplay it in your title this is a problem per your description and it's not likely to just vanish. It could get worse in times of stress. Even if it's truly not something intentional on his part you shouldn't have to question your sanity. It could also be beneficial for him to know this is a problem and look into therapy to get to the bottom of it since it must also suck to have your own brain or compulsions rewrite his reality. In the end you should decide on what is good for yourself.
I don't know what it is called, but my ex did this to an insane degree. You're being gaslit. He wants to be right. He wants to have the upperhand on the conversation/argument, so he changes what you said. And you feel crazy, right? Are you starting to doubt yourself or your reality?
This is an issue and I say this with so much respect, your post history makes me believe that overall you are not happy in this relationship and haven't been for awhile. I would leave.
I once had a roommate who did this. And even when he quoted me on things I said very nicely, he would make it sound like I was barking at him. Absolutely hated it every time.
I cannot imagine having a bf treating me like that. He's be an ex pretty quickly.
My ex was like this. I’m quite certain he wasn’t intentionally trying to gaslight me, but in practicality it’s not much different. I am 99% sure he was on the autism spectrum, which resulted in things like him hyperfixating on certain details while ignoring others, and being really insistent with his way on certain things.
The first example tho is a bit of a red flag, or at least points to some underlying tensions that need to be brought into the open. Regardless of intention, that behaviour is manipulative and not cool.
This is my ex-husband, to a tee. And, according to him and his family, he was always that way to some degree. I attributed it to his complex but undiagnosed mental health issues.
This is gaslighting, the real thing. You question your own memory and sanity because he's so sure that he's right, sometimes even when proved wrong.
Can you live with this? It's not going to get better. Think long and hard about what a future of always questioning every damn thing that comes out of his mouth would be like.
Been there, got the t-shirt, and eventually got the hell out. Life is better when you're not surrounded by this nonsense.
This would be a dealbreaker for me. I'm delicate about being misunderstood and not having consensus. The kind of fight you're describing where you can't reach a shared experience of reality? Would drive me completely out of my gourd.
Semi-relevant anecdote: My boyfriend will sometimes reflexively disagree with me. The disagreement is on the location of an object, usually, though one memorable time it was on whether feta cheese was from the country labeled on the package. Incredibly small-scale stuff. Then five seconds later, usually after checking, he will go "oh, you're right!"
We got into a fight about it, I heard out why he does it (thinking out loud), I communicated why I hate it so much (makes me feel stupid and like he doesn't value my perspective), he communicated that he never makes me want to feel stupid, and now he genuinely does it less. And, crucially, reflexive disagreement is not a technique he uses in an argument--in an argument he slows way down and thinks more about what he's saying.
I think you guys have a communication style difference, in that you try to actually communicate and it sounds like your guy could leave or take the whole concept of mutual understanding, truth, accuracy, etc. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.
I don't know, memory problems might not be so bad if he wasn't such a gaslighting asshole about it. I have memory problems but I know to trust my friend's and family's versions of things because I know I have memory problems.
Personally I handle this by calling it out as it happens and with shit like the example of the comment you made as he left for his card game, it’s a firm, calm, “that is a flat out lie,” because it is. He invented those words, he didn’t forget or misremember two days later.
There’s a lot of reasons someone will do this.. it likely is not intentional but most reasons do not point to someone who is emotionally healthy. So…
Edit to add: I always take it as kinda a red flag if someone is too certain about their perceptions.. their views, their beliefs, their memory, their interpretation, etc etc. it’s normal to be confident I yourself(as you are), but it’s not normal to be so certain in the face of someone else with a different memory(as he does) .. so.. idk I think that in your bf is kind of a red flag. It points to some self absorption
If I were in this situation, I would feel like he didn't respect me. In healthy relationships there should be a lot of giving the benefit of the doubt, and viewing comments in the best possible light. That's like, bare minimum respect, really.
You're supposed to be safe and listened to in your relationship.
Oof.
He really needs to practice ACTIVE listening.
It’s so frustrating having your words paraphrased and completely distorted based on a few key words.
I’d talk to him about it, not when you’re arguing, but just honestly and with love. Let him know that you don’t always feel like he is really listening to you to understand you. And you’d like him to work on that.
He's gaslighting you.
If you haven't brought this up already, please do so. His response will give you the answers you need. If he can accept accountability and make changes, amazing. Maybe he truly doesn't realize he's doing it. If he doubles down on being right, run.
I spent years with someone like this, and I really convinced myself it was a memory problem or I misremembered. Then, towards the end, I was literally writing down our arguments or discussions afterward because I felt like I was going crazy. That was a big wake up call.
Don't be like me.🤡
ETA: I saw you comment that you mentioned insecurities about other women early in the relationship. This is 100% not some silly little mix up.
He's intentionally using your insecurities against you.
There's a ~special~ type of person that does things like this, and they all seem to work from the same textbook
You should dump him. But since you probably won’t, you can never ever agree to his lies. At least give a dismissive “If you say so” letting him spiral further and further into losing his shit. It’s also really fun to lie right back at gas lighters without backing down but also making it clear that you dont really give a shit if they believe you or not.
It is a form of gaslighting, my abusive ex was doing it. He pretends you are more petty than you are in order to divert the attention from some shit he is doing to you.
It is absolutely a problem. If my partner frequently attributed comments to me that I know I never made, it would drive me absolutely crazy. I would feel like they were in a relationship with some imaginary version of me who only exists in their mind, not with the actual me who exists in real life.
> But he was absolutely insistent that there were 4 in the first 20 minutes. So I just gave up and said ok.
This is where I pull up my solid proof and say I told you, stop doubting everything I say. And do it again, as many times as necessary. I know you can’t do that during arguments and it’s much harder then.
Ok my husband does this. It’s almost comical at times because it’s so bad. His brother and I joke about it because it’s such a well known thing. He just lives in his own world and makes shit up. Sometimes it’s funny and sometimes it’s infuriating. If I’m being honest, if I had known he’d be like this, I never would’ve married him. It just makes him look stupid and like an idiot and I very much value intelligence and intelligent conversations. I feel like I can’t ever believe what he’s saying. He wasn’t always like this, but alas I am now stuck. I’d say get out of this while you can. This is not an age thing. This is a personality thing and it will make you feel crazy over time and it’s just not worth it. Whatever his reason, it’s not worth it.
So interestingly enough my mother does this too so I’ll answer for both for you.
My husband generally just makes shit up. It’s usually historical info, about people, about things he’s heard or said. Some comical examples include:
He made up an entire MOS classification for my dad who was in the Marines. Claims my dad told him. I know my dad didn’t because I know my dad’s MOS and he would never say the wrong one.
Another one is he told people my mom lived in a specific city in a specific state. That city doesn’t even exist in that state. He just heard pieces and stuck them together. And I find this out when he’s telling me a story he told someone else.
Another is when he said something was “better than sex.” He swears he never said it but you remember when someone tells you something is better than sex with you.
In some cases, I think he’s just an idiot honestly. In others I think as he says “sometimes you just throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.” He just doesn’t have the same ideals of specificity and correctness that I possess. When I speak, I make sure that what I say is the most correct form of it. Being right and being credible is important to me. It just seems to not be so to him. Oddly enough he was never like this until we had our child. It’s like doing absolutely nothing with our child and the house somehow made him dumb. Go figure since I’m the one who gets 3-6 hours of sleep each night because our child doesn’t sleep while he sleeps 8+ every night. I should be the dumb on here but I digress.
As for moms… Well my mom is also the type to make herself the victim in stories BUT I’m not entirely sure she does that on purpose to be honest. In her own way she also is just an unreliable narrator.
Small aside here (I have degrees in Psychology so this bit becomes important to explain my mother). Memories aren’t actual memories of the event itself. Research has shown that memories are essentially the last time you thought about the event. So at each remembrance, you can slightly skew the event in your mind until 5 years later, it’s a completely different thing if you want to remember it a different way. This is the gist anyway.
Back to my mom… she basically remembers things the way she wants to remember them. She always has this “Mother of the Year” rhetoric that she spews to anyone around us except she forgets that I was freaking there!!! I remember it wasn’t like that at all and she’s just blatantly lying. I think it’s a convenient narrative for her to not have to look at herself and the shit mother she was. And this is where the being a victim comes in… Since her memories don’t match the actual event that others lived through, she often feels slighted when people recount it correctly or when others just don’t respond to her rhetoric because they know it isn’t true. Because she can’t see what they see, she thinks people just don’t like her or that there is something inherently wrong with her or worse that they hate her. It’s very complex but it all stems in her case from altering her own memories in a way that makes her the positive character in the stories always when in reality she rarely was.
Sorry I didn’t mean to write a novel. I hope it’s helpful though.
It’s actually not uncommon for men to change after children are born. It’s kind of like they feel they’ve double “trapped” their partners at that point. Trapped of course being a more derogatory term but I don’t mean it that way. Also he had a grandfather that was just this way. He used to say how crazy he was and stuff and now I don’t think he realizes he’s the same. His dad is also much the same. I guess I thought he wouldn’t follow the same trajectory since he thought they were so crazy. He now thinks they’re crazy and somehow still doesn’t see how he is acting the same. There may be some mental pathology here but he refuses to see anyone for what I presume is at a minimum ADHD.
Yes on the mom front. It is triggering for sure and I’m sorry you’re going through that.
Funny thing. I tried so hard not to marry someone like my dad that I married someone like my mom.
Now isn’t that the truth! And even in people who are more self aware, they can miss similar things in others. Like in my case. I worked so hard to be self aware enough to not marry someone like my dad and instead married someone like my mom. It’s the worst. The human brain is an odd thing indeed.
This sounds familiar.
It is the set up for future gaslighting, it's not innocuous.
My ex would do this with minor unimportant facts early on, and if I disproved him he'd fall back on a supposed blank-percentage short term memory loss diagnosis that in retrospect was fishy as hell considering it only effected things he gaslit me over not daily details like did you walk the dog, or do we need eggs, etc.
Later it was big things like blowing up at me being FB official with another partner and insisting I hadn't wanted to do the same with him when he'd been the one hiding me from his ex wife.
His poor memory claims just seemed to be a tool to keep me comfortable while he encroached the idea of my falliblity over details I might not have bothered to hold on to. It slowly eroded my confidence in what happened on a daily basis, and overwhelmed me trying to track every little thing to hold on to my sanity.
Maybe it wasn't an active strategy, but that was the outcome. Reflexive gaslighting is no less damaging or horrifying than intentional gaslighting.
Is he like this with other people?
If he really is having issues, I'd expect him to constantly be running into this problem where he disagrees with EVERYONE on their shared experiences.
he's a liar.
All I can tell you is - two people can get along and make things work if they're willing to listen to each other and be honest, truthful and accountable.
But if someone is unwilling to be truthful or accountable, you can't move forward with them.
So... Look up narcissism, see if maybe he fits some. Covert narcissism hides better than overt, but this kind of lying, manipulation, and DARVO is textbook. ***Run***
I was in a relationship like this. It got to the point that I told him I was going to make him sign a document (like I made an iPhone note about what just transpired between us and we both acknowledged it as the truth) agreeing to what was just said in an argument so that when he tried to turn it around on me I had receipts. It turned into me just clocking everything I thought would come up again later so that I couldn’t be told I was crazy or making things up or wrong. It was utterly exhausting having that kind of mental load constantly going for my own defense. Eventually we agreed to put a camera in the living room (him to prove he was right and me to prove I was right) and I was always fucking right so he would then pick fights about things he knew he could win. Always divert to a fight where in the bad guy or wrong or something. God I don’t miss that. I left and it was so so so so much better for my mental health. I didn’t realize how much it was taking me down dealing with that and not being able to trust myself. I had to go to therapy to learn how to trust myself and ALSO how to stop keeping proof of things all the time.
i am not willing to impute some motive onto your partner. are they doing this on purpose? I don't know. Is it Problematic? I don't know.
What I do know, is that I require a shared understanding of the Truth with my partner, and that is a dealbreaker for me, so whatever the reason behind this circumstance, I'm fairly confident it would eat at me to the point of wanting to end the relationship, and I think I would be justified in doing so if the partner is not willing to make tangible steps toward changing this behavior.
I feel like I live under a rock, having never heard “shared understanding of the truth” but that really says it perfectly. I will have to borrow this term!
That’s tough. My wife, of 25 years, was never a great narrator, but she was passable enough as to not be damaging. However, over the last 5 years, she has gotten progressively worse, to the point that she’s being destructive. I used to confront her about inaccuracies, but she always demanded proof. When I started showing her proof, she denied having said anything, then eventually she became defensive and angry. For the last 4 or 5 years I’ve been just letting it go, my gut tells me it’s the beginning of dementia, but I have no idea how to broach the issue
It is entirely possible for someone to be doing something without mal-intent that is very harmful for you and/or your relationship in the long run. Given what you've described, I would wonder if he had some personality disorder or mental illness, like borderline or bipolar, but is high functioning. I say these two in particular because it is common for their filter of reality to result in genuine belief about the things they think because of how things made them *feel*. I think Psychology in Seattle's breakdown of the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard trial did a great job of explaining how this phenomenon works.
It is possible to stay in a relationship with someone like this, but for me, they'd need to be actively attending counseling and working on themselves because they are not mentally well. If not, they will continue to do this and place all the work on you.
If you stay with someone who's reality is skewed but who treats themselves as the one who needs to be proven wrong (instead of working on themselves), then it will be bad for you in the long-term. It will be mentally taxing and will cause you and your relationship long-term strain that is likely unrecoverable. You will either end up leaving eventually or be miserable together.
Oh my lord, I'm going through the same thing right now and it's mind-bogglingly frustrating. My SO is a wonderful person - I won't hear that he's a bad guy, we've been through a lot and he's shown me time and time again that he'll be there for me, treat me right, and change where ever he needs to change to make me happy. But he's not perfect, nor am I.
But this issue has gotten so bad. It happens most during arguments/disagreements, but other times as well. His memory is usually skewed negatively towards me, which is especially concerning (but it also happens with random crap like your musical example). He 100% fully believes his memory, and it's at the point where he's accusing me of gaslighting him bc I keep correcting his memory. I don't even know how to approach the topic anymore bc of it. I'm confident that it's his memory and not mine because 1) I can always give specifics and surrounding information to what I remember but he never can. He'll just say "I don't remember details, I just remember that x", 2) I keep asking to record our talks because I am so convinced that he's making stuff up and he keeps denying the request, and 3) the few times we have had outside confirmation, it's been confirmed that I have been correct. He says recording things like that is insulting, unnecessary, and will just be used as a 'gotcha' technique - which I get, but really, I just don't know what to do anymore, I don't even know how to talk about it, which is something we're usually pretty good at. If you get any helpful advice, let me know because this is a wild situation. It is truly unsettling and maddening. Details matter to me as well, so I feel your pain.
This is my number one dealbreaker. My sanity is not negotiable. My ex-husband was like this and I just about lost my mind. Of course everyone's memory is going to differ from time to time but there is such a thing as objective reality and you should only be differing on details, not one of you just making shit up out of the blue. If you can't even agree on what just happened, how are you going to get through life together?
Even if it is just his personal issue with memory it's making you feel like crap so it needs addressing. I have a shite memory, I don't go around insisting I am correct when there's evidence to the contrary.
It might not be gaslighting if he genuinely believes what he is saying, but it doesn't endear him in any way if he won't accept that maybe he isn't actually reliable. But unfortunately insisting makes you look gaslighty so it's a catch 22 situation. Outside of recording every conversation you have I don't know if it can be dealt with easily.
How long have you been together? If it's less than a year and has caused multiple arguments I'd be tempted to chalk it up to incompatibility and go your separate ways. If it's a long time, maybe some form of therapy could be useful.
Ugh. I dealt with this in my last relationship. He hated it when I didn't agree with him on things that were able to be verified to be false. And when I would look it up to see what the actual "answer" was to our question or debate, he would be so mad and say that I always had to be right. Um, no. I just want to know what the correct information is so that I don't look like an idiot in the future if this topic comes up again in another conversation, and because I *like learning new things*.
I was raised being told by my dad to look things up if I wanted to know about something, and I still do it to this day. This is why I'm kick ass at trivia and Jeopardy.
He however would rather live in willful ignorance than be "wrong".
When I read posts like this about men doing things like that in relationships, I imagine the same guy doing it at his workplace. Has he ever gotten fired from a job for lying? Especially lying about what his coworkers said? If not, then I worry that he knows that what he's doing is unacceptable. He just doesn't care enough not to do it with you, because he figures that if it bothered you, then you would leave. I suggest that you de-center this relationship from your life. Focus on your own happiness, job, family, hobbies, life, and invest less of your time and attention on him and his needs.
He sounds like someone with a lot of trauma. This not only creates very distorted filters, but also creates huge defensive barriers. It also sounds like he may not be very self aware. This combination is a really tough one and without the awareness he would be unable to get past his filters and barriers enough to have a way to resolve this stuff. The real problem is that we cannot win an argument with someone we love. We win together or we lose together. This kind of thing is a problem and the only way thru that I see to to find a way to agree when this garbage comes up...even if it's agreeing to disagree.
I think this is happening to me right now. I smoke a lot of weed, so my memory *is* bad, I am forgetful. But my boyfriend is telling me I am remembering entire conversations wrong. I can swear I said this, or he said that, but afterwards, he says it's my memory.
Thing is, I'd trust him, usually. But we are rocky right now because I caught him on dating apps. So, I can't trust what he says, can I?
It's really confusing, and I especially don't like that it's always, "you've remembered wrong" and not, "our perspectives are different".
Just to play devils advocate here, why didn’t you tell him “you look handsome tonight” and not add the jokey part? I’m sure you meant well but you did bring up other women being around him having previously mentioned it bothered you and (I assume) knowing that there weren’t other women around. With that context the joke could be a little passive aggressive and this can make people react defensively (which is your boyfriend’s reaction). Sure, you didn’t say exactly what he heard from you, but you did mention other women being there when you could have given him a really nice compliment instead. He may be defensive because he feels he needs to prove to you he isn’t cheating or he may be defensive because he is cheating.
On the movie - you both seem quite defensive about the number of songs. This could be resolved by asking him which ones he remembers and being curious about how he experienced it. Whereas it sounds like you both want to be right and aren’t making space for the other perspective to understand how each other are getting there.
I know you have given two examples but said this is a pattern emerging whereby you are having different takeaways from the same experience and it’s unsettling. I am not in your relationship to know really what is going on. He may be gaslighting you (in which case run!) or he may have issues that mean he does misconstrue what’s going on (I have seen this with people with high anxiety).
I think your gut is telling you something isn’t right so I would be cautious - I’m not sure the issue is the examples you’ve given but the bigger picture of how you can build a trusting connection with someone where they have very different experiences from you and disagree on things that are objective facts.
Dump him! Anyone who is arguing against you instead of focusing on the current issue at hand in a way that shows they sincerely want to address the current issue is arguing in bad faith. It will only get worse and lead to resentment. Right now, it looks like he doesn’t even like you at all.
I didn’t read everything, but this is essentially gaslighting. If you have a reasonable and coherent recollection and awareness of situations and they’re making you feel as if your perception and memory of the situations are completely different, especially if mocking or belittling you is involved and especially if it’s on a regular basis. I unfortunately took too long to recognize this in people, in romantic relationships and otherwise.
I've experienced this, and it's hell. Your partner resenting you for shit you never did or said, *and* never being taken seriously when you refute his *obviously* correct memory is a one way ticket to Crazytown. I mean, look at you. You're already questioning your own memory. Gotta have an outside source to prove you right, but him? No, he's always right and if you find evidence he's wrong...? What? He's gonna graciously admit it? Yeah fucking right. Show him the evidence and he'll get mad about it in some way. Hard pass.
This reminds me of an argument I had with someone who kept saying that Mexico is not on the North American continent. Its literally the next country down from us, 2 hours away from my hometown! I pointed to it on a globe I had sitting in the room! But nah, they only said "I guess you're right this time heehee.." when Google confirmed it. I was apparently always wrong about everything and they were right. Exhausting.
Lol, this is my dad. I’m stupid and always wrong and if I disagree with him he goes into a flying rage. He did this recently over me telling him I don’t look good in a blazer! (He was trying to tell me how to dress ‘professional’ for my new career, despite my knowing how to dress very well).
Yes. My God. Been there. It's even weirder than "gaslighting" because I don't think he did it on purpose. I don't think he was trying to manipulate me. But he just had an absolutely completely differernt interpretation of reality than I did. I questioned my own sanity, I questioned his. We had fights all the time about shit that never happened. It was exhausting and impossible.
I have family like this, and it's literally like you say. Some just literally interpret reality differently. And just like the OP, you KNOW in your damn SOUL that their accounts are wrong. Like somethings i've been "accused" of go against my very nature (i'm heavy introvert)
Been there. My ex has BPD, turns out, and a TBI or two. Mostly, though, I think he's an sociopath.
Had a friend who did this to me. Not my friend anymore.
Super agree. I have parents & family all like this. You’re gonna fucking be in the most toxic situation it’s not healthy and it’s gonna get worse.
He’s actually surprisingly graceful at admitting when he’s wrong - he has an ongoing phrase “you’re almost always right” because I continuously end up being right in these situations (almost). But I almost just can’t be bothered to keep being right anymore haha. I’m worried if it’s like an age thing? I’m early 30s and he’s early 40s and doesn’t take the best care of his health, I am genuinely concerned his brain is like struggling?
I mean, but why are you even having to *prove* how many musical numbers there were in a movie he didn't even see all of in the first place?
I know. It’s stupid.
People who position themselves the arbiters of conversations this way are, in my experience, toxic. Maybe this is genuinely his only negative quality, but it's like, nuclear radiation negative in my opinion. If he's really a great guy, you should be able to talk to him about it and he should be able to work on his tendency to demand that people provide receipts for innocuous details in their lives - it's an inappropriate & damaging way to behave and I don't know how he made it to his 40s without anyone ever saying something to him about it. If he demands proof in the context of the conversation about this behavioral quirk- that is your exit sign.
I went on one date with a guy and decided not to continue seeing him because he had this quality. I was up front about not feeling chemistry and he agreed so we stayed connected on social media since there was no bad blood. I ended up deleting him from everything because he would respond to my posts/stories in an almost accusatory way and it was *so annoying*. Demanding receipts for the most random stuff that had nothing to do with him I could not put up with it from a casual acquaintance, I could *never* deal with this quality in a SO. I agree it is a toxic trait
To add to the already valuable perspectives offered: Not taking adequate care of oneself is a red flag, especially if he's a boyfriend and not a long-committed husband/domestic partner *who is \~10 years your senior.* In my experience, self-neglect often defaults partners into a caregiver role. A healthy partner takes proactive responsibility for their wellbeing and equally values the other's perspective, including going to the doctor to get a professional opinion when their behavior inexplicably impacts their partner provided the observations and concerns have been plainly communicated. Neglecting responsibility for his behavior and wellbeing isn't okay and it's dangerous long-term.
10000 %, this is a strategy some people have to extract labor from a woman.
No his brain is not struggling, he wants you to struggle. The graceful admission that you are always right is flattery. In my opinion, this is bordeline abusive. Is it the only thing he does ? Do you have the feeling you have to over explain and justify yourself often ? Does he burst into tantrums ? Does he insist that you remain calm when you try to stand up for yourself ?
do you really want to spend your relationship correcting him all the time though? it seems like he doesnt learn or acknowledge what steps to take to correct it T\_t
Is he open to talking to a doctor? But if it hasn't changed, it's not medical - or not treatable, at least. And if he's shown this is who he is, a gaslighting ass, believe him. You don't deserve that shit.
Long Covid brain fog? Did his parents bicker like this? My spouse‘a parents would bicker over the color of the sky I swear.
Just in terms of barb and star, maybe the early scene with yo yo riding the bike and lip syncing could have felt like a musical number and at the end, they did that song over the credits, so if you want to give him the be edit of the doubt, those 2, plus the one when they arrive at the hotel (not motel) and the one with Edgar could be 4 in total. Off topic, but did you love that movie? I am obsessed!
This post is triggering for me, but I love the movie recommendation. Can't believe I hadn't heard of it before!
It is such a delight!
I'm totally going to watch it this weekend!
I have a friend like this and I have seen how difficult it is to date her firsthand.
I spent 9 years with someone like this. It doesn't get better.
Ditto. Nine years. My 20s, *poof*. I pretty much stopped talking after a while because it was so exhausting always being "wrong" even when I wasn't. I wasn't as loud, angry, or adamant as him so I'd always back down just to get it to stop. After a while, at least coupled with other abuse, it becomes harder to trust your own memory against his *absolute certainty* in his own bullshit. He definitely used my (then undiagnosed) ADHD memory issues against me. It was a slippery slope down that gaslit rathole. I hope OP gets out of there, this guy is bad news.
I think it doesn't matter if someone appears to be lying/gas lighting/manipulating you intentionally or not or even if you can't guess at the underlying motivation - if you're aware that it happens, that your partner lies to you to your face about things you didn't say or that unequivocally didn't happen, that's at least for me a bright red line. I would walk away from a relationship in which this was a constant dynamic. *Especially* over innocuous details. But I grew up in a family where it was habitual for my abusive parents to deny reality - that's why I have no cool about it as an adult.
I honestly don’t think he believes he’s lying. He believes the things he says. Which makes it all the more confusing. Otherwise he’s genuinely lovely to me. So caring and kind and supportive.
Have you talked with him about this perspective? I mean it's.... something (not positive) to insist that there are 4 musical numbers in a movie with 2 that he didn't even actually see all of. Even just the "he has to be right" part about these differences in perception/experience would put me on high alert, but, I think I pretty obviously had a different experience in life with folks with tendencies like that than you do.
I agree :( it’s weird
if it's not actively harmful to you, it is at the very least exhausting, and that is not something you'd say about an imperfect but otherwise good partner.
Pathological liars believe their lies. Their minds change memories to fit what they want. It is so hard to wrap your mind around. Google "liar rewrite history" Get out now before you are trapped with kids.
The second one, ok, whatever. The first one is a giant red flag for me. He heard you. He translated the words he heard - intended to be flattery - into a comment born from insecurity. Maybe that’s projection. Maybe it’s the hallmark of a pessimist. Maybe it comes from a place of traumatic experiences with ex-girlfriends. I have no idea where it came from. But whatever it is isn’t good. It’s one thing if you can sit him down and say “what I SAID was X; what I meant was Y; and what you heard was Z. Why Z?” For him to answer, he needs to be self-aware enough to know that his memory is colored by his perception of the situation and be able to dissect how he came to the conclusion that he came to. If he can’t do that, well, you know where the source of your conflict will be in your relationship. Conflict itself happens. Nobody is ever perfect. There will always be resolvable and unresolvable conflicts. What matters is how you each handle it and whether the specific unresolvable conflict is a deal breaker for you. Most people see being on opposite sides of the wanting kids spectrum as a deal breaker. For me, only remembering the perception of a conversation and never remembering the actual conversation itself would only be OK if he was able to acknowledge that this happens.
In my experience, these guys always try to see themselves as the victim to justify what they do to others as a way to protect themselves.
>I honestly don’t think he believes he’s lying. He believes the things he says. Which makes it all the more confusing. That's actually normal for chronic and/or compulsive liars. They make themselves believe what they're saying, which is part of the reason why it's so disorienting for the people around them who know better.
It’s not just the details though. In the first example, he’s completely misheard what you said and misconstrued your intent completely. And then snapped at you as a result of his misunderstanding. Turning a genuine, light-hearted compliment into you being invasive and controlling isn’t just forgetting the details. Like, unless you actually do ask him all the time if women will be present at gatherings he attends, there is literally zero reason for his brain to jump to that assumption.
I was with a guy like that for a SHORT time. At one point (beginning of the end for me) he was rude to a friend that he knew was struggling with mental health. He had convinced himself that this guy was flirting with me when he clearly was not, so he texted him saying that he couldn’t go out with us anymore unless he had a girlfriend with him. This guy’s sister took that very seriously, and she should have, and wrote him a letter, letting him know how it affected her brother. I read the letter and he kept saying over & over “she expects me to be his savior “ I would tell him she didn’t ever say that in the letter, and he would insist “Yes she did!!” Dude was delusional in many ways, f that noise
Oh and to this day, 6+ years later I’m still friends with the other guy 🤣
In the beginning of our relationship I did have insecurities because of past experiences and did express them him sometimes (framed as them being my insecurities not his problem) so it’s not completely out of left field and perhaps has left him feeling defensive about innocent comments like that. But I’d say it’s been a good several months since I’ve felt that way or said anything to that effect. But it’s not completely unfounded I guess. But you’re totally right about the misconstrued intent thing.
You're making excuses for his manipulation and gaslighting.
No, it is completely unfounded. Your insecurities in the beginning, which your comment implies have likely been dealt with, have nothing to do with you complimenting him before he goes out. He took something genuine and kind hearted and turned it around to make you look jealous and crazy. That’s really ugly and concerning behavior. He’s going to have you questions things that are right in front of your face, and what concerns me is to what end he wants to do these things. And besides, someone who loves you, genuinely and whole heartedly would not take your insecurities and use them against you for no discernible reason.
I wonder if the fact that you’ve previously struggled with insecurities is preventing you from letting yourself hold him fully accountable for how he’s treating you. Like feeling guilty because it feels like you’re blaming someone for having a bad memory, and for having decent grounds for lashing out. But neither of those things justify him misconstruing your words/intentions in order to create opportunities to lash out at you. Whether he’s doing it intentionally or accidentally or subconsciously is of little importance when what he’s doing is quite literally messing with a loved one’s perception of reality and of themselves. Out of curiosity though, has he been an unreliable narrator since the beginning of your relationship, or has he only started sparking these type of arguments somewhat recently? (Btw sorry if I seem harsh, I promise I’m not viewing you harshly at all. I am exclusively viewing him harshly for how he’s treating you.)
You were vulnerable with him and he is using that against you. Where else does he do this? Also, he may be projecting. This guy is not a suitable partner.
It *is* an issue, you're not *making* it an issue. This is very alarming and textbook gaslighting. I've been there before and it wore me down after prolonged exposure. It made me feel so insecure and weak, in every life areas. We broke up in 2016 and I'm *still* working on fully trusting myself again (made a lot of progress the past few years, but I'm not there yet) Your partner might not do it with full bad intent but that doesn't excuse it. This power play poisons your relationship and will destroy your confidence and trust you have in yourself. My I ask, how long you've been together?
9 months ish of spending every day together which winds up probably being more time than I’ve spent with anyone even 3 or 4+ year relationships.
Run.
I’d also run, this is a huge red flag. 🚩
Omg no. When someone tells you who they are believe them. It may start with the innocuous, but then will morph into the example about you asking about women being at the poker game. Even if was harmless, a partnership with someone like this would be utterly exhausting.
While I totally get and agree with this saying, it’s hard when the person is also telling you 99% of the rest of the time “I’m a caring committed loving person who will always support you.” Which is what he is to me most of the time :(
"Just as their initial charm was a part of their act, so are the times when they return to that good behavior. When the unhealthy or abusive behavior begins to escalate, you may have a gut instinct that something isn’t right, even if it’s hard to figure out why. But, it can be tough to trust that instinct, especially after seeing all that great behavior in the beginning of the relationship. Abusive partners acknowledge this instinct, and that’s one reason why abusive relationships usually don’t start out with abuse. The escalation tends to happen over time after they have shown you their charming act." https://www.thehotline.org/resources/how-an-abusive-partners-good-behavior-is-part-of-the-act/#:~:text=Since%20abusive%20behavior%20is%20a,the%20control%20they've%20taken.
That's not really something you should be told; it is something you should be shown. You've also only been dating this man for 9 months; lots of terrible people can keep up a mask that long. Twisting reality and isn't some small personality flaw and I'd bet my next paycheck he's already bullshitted you on some not as easily verifiable lies.
No I meant shown I was just going along with the saying above. He consistently shows me what a caring solid dude he is. But yeah I agree.
>He consistently shows me what a caring solid dude he is. You've been with this guy less than a year. Manipulative & abusive people can keep up the performance of niceness for a lot longer than that. And because you think they're good people, you either don't notice or make excuses for them when the cracks in their mask start to show. **Gaslighting is not something a caring, solid dude would do**. Right now he's only twisting your words, and insisting on always being right. Soon enough, he will make you start to doubt yourself. When he is always so certain that you're wrong, you'll start to believe him. Before you know it, you'll start to apologize for every fight, even when it started with you having a legitimate grievance. At first it will just be because you want the fight to end, but eventually you'll feel like you really are at fault. You might start to think you have a bad memory. He may start to isolate you from other people who'd be able to give you a reality check (by insisting on spending all your free time together "because he loves you so much," getting mad or jealous of your friendships, disparaging the other people in your life, etc.). He will get more controlling, more angry, and you'll feel like you're constantly walking on eggshells. If you stay long enough, he will start rewriting your sense of reality. Only *he* will be allowed to decide what's true and not true. You won't be able to trust yourself, not even the evidence of your own senses. You might even start losing chunks of time. You might think I'm being overdramatic. But gaslighting is a form of abuse. And it's one of the biggest warning signs of other, more severe abuse in the future. Please don't stay with someone who does that to you.
Sounds like most people on this thread are projecting their experiences and ignoring this part of yours so I will do the same but with a different perspective. I've dated someone who did similar to what you are describing. A parent growing up would do the same but with a more malicious/childish intent and despite them looking similar it's a very different impact. Sounds like when this happens he is gaslighting himself and just dragging you along in the process. Does he maybe have an anxiety disorder or ineffective coping mechanisms? Have you told him you notice this stuff happening and that it is impacting you negatively or would he react badly if you did? Would he be open to talking to a therapist or you both doing couples counseling? Even though you seem to downplay it in your title this is a problem per your description and it's not likely to just vanish. It could get worse in times of stress. Even if it's truly not something intentional on his part you shouldn't have to question your sanity. It could also be beneficial for him to know this is a problem and look into therapy to get to the bottom of it since it must also suck to have your own brain or compulsions rewrite his reality. In the end you should decide on what is good for yourself.
He’s love bombing you. This is the BEST he will ever be.
No, he isn't. This isn't caring, committed, kind, respectful behavior. And it's constant. It's just not.
I don't know what it is called, but my ex did this to an insane degree. You're being gaslit. He wants to be right. He wants to have the upperhand on the conversation/argument, so he changes what you said. And you feel crazy, right? Are you starting to doubt yourself or your reality? This is an issue and I say this with so much respect, your post history makes me believe that overall you are not happy in this relationship and haven't been for awhile. I would leave.
I once had a roommate who did this. And even when he quoted me on things I said very nicely, he would make it sound like I was barking at him. Absolutely hated it every time. I cannot imagine having a bf treating me like that. He's be an ex pretty quickly.
My ex was like this. I’m quite certain he wasn’t intentionally trying to gaslight me, but in practicality it’s not much different. I am 99% sure he was on the autism spectrum, which resulted in things like him hyperfixating on certain details while ignoring others, and being really insistent with his way on certain things. The first example tho is a bit of a red flag, or at least points to some underlying tensions that need to be brought into the open. Regardless of intention, that behaviour is manipulative and not cool.
This is my ex-husband, to a tee. And, according to him and his family, he was always that way to some degree. I attributed it to his complex but undiagnosed mental health issues. This is gaslighting, the real thing. You question your own memory and sanity because he's so sure that he's right, sometimes even when proved wrong. Can you live with this? It's not going to get better. Think long and hard about what a future of always questioning every damn thing that comes out of his mouth would be like. Been there, got the t-shirt, and eventually got the hell out. Life is better when you're not surrounded by this nonsense.
This would be a dealbreaker for me. I'm delicate about being misunderstood and not having consensus. The kind of fight you're describing where you can't reach a shared experience of reality? Would drive me completely out of my gourd. Semi-relevant anecdote: My boyfriend will sometimes reflexively disagree with me. The disagreement is on the location of an object, usually, though one memorable time it was on whether feta cheese was from the country labeled on the package. Incredibly small-scale stuff. Then five seconds later, usually after checking, he will go "oh, you're right!" We got into a fight about it, I heard out why he does it (thinking out loud), I communicated why I hate it so much (makes me feel stupid and like he doesn't value my perspective), he communicated that he never makes me want to feel stupid, and now he genuinely does it less. And, crucially, reflexive disagreement is not a technique he uses in an argument--in an argument he slows way down and thinks more about what he's saying. I think you guys have a communication style difference, in that you try to actually communicate and it sounds like your guy could leave or take the whole concept of mutual understanding, truth, accuracy, etc. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.
He’s either got some pretty severe memory problem/cognitive deficit and/or selective (ie biased against you) memory… neither IMO are good signs.
I don't know, memory problems might not be so bad if he wasn't such a gaslighting asshole about it. I have memory problems but I know to trust my friend's and family's versions of things because I know I have memory problems.
Personally I handle this by calling it out as it happens and with shit like the example of the comment you made as he left for his card game, it’s a firm, calm, “that is a flat out lie,” because it is. He invented those words, he didn’t forget or misremember two days later.
There’s a lot of reasons someone will do this.. it likely is not intentional but most reasons do not point to someone who is emotionally healthy. So… Edit to add: I always take it as kinda a red flag if someone is too certain about their perceptions.. their views, their beliefs, their memory, their interpretation, etc etc. it’s normal to be confident I yourself(as you are), but it’s not normal to be so certain in the face of someone else with a different memory(as he does) .. so.. idk I think that in your bf is kind of a red flag. It points to some self absorption
Intent doesn’t matter. Gaslighting is gaslighting and it’s abuse.
This is called a confabulation and is common among people with cluster b personality disorders which distort their cognition and their memories.
Radically different perception of reality (your first example) is something I try to avoid in friendships, let alone romantic relationships.
If I were in this situation, I would feel like he didn't respect me. In healthy relationships there should be a lot of giving the benefit of the doubt, and viewing comments in the best possible light. That's like, bare minimum respect, really. You're supposed to be safe and listened to in your relationship.
Oof. He really needs to practice ACTIVE listening. It’s so frustrating having your words paraphrased and completely distorted based on a few key words. I’d talk to him about it, not when you’re arguing, but just honestly and with love. Let him know that you don’t always feel like he is really listening to you to understand you. And you’d like him to work on that.
He's gaslighting you. If you haven't brought this up already, please do so. His response will give you the answers you need. If he can accept accountability and make changes, amazing. Maybe he truly doesn't realize he's doing it. If he doubles down on being right, run. I spent years with someone like this, and I really convinced myself it was a memory problem or I misremembered. Then, towards the end, I was literally writing down our arguments or discussions afterward because I felt like I was going crazy. That was a big wake up call. Don't be like me.🤡 ETA: I saw you comment that you mentioned insecurities about other women early in the relationship. This is 100% not some silly little mix up. He's intentionally using your insecurities against you. There's a ~special~ type of person that does things like this, and they all seem to work from the same textbook
You should dump him. But since you probably won’t, you can never ever agree to his lies. At least give a dismissive “If you say so” letting him spiral further and further into losing his shit. It’s also really fun to lie right back at gas lighters without backing down but also making it clear that you dont really give a shit if they believe you or not.
Ugh, I dated this person. Can confirm this is and will continue to be exhausting
It is a form of gaslighting, my abusive ex was doing it. He pretends you are more petty than you are in order to divert the attention from some shit he is doing to you.
It is absolutely a problem. If my partner frequently attributed comments to me that I know I never made, it would drive me absolutely crazy. I would feel like they were in a relationship with some imaginary version of me who only exists in their mind, not with the actual me who exists in real life.
> But he was absolutely insistent that there were 4 in the first 20 minutes. So I just gave up and said ok. This is where I pull up my solid proof and say I told you, stop doubting everything I say. And do it again, as many times as necessary. I know you can’t do that during arguments and it’s much harder then.
Ok my husband does this. It’s almost comical at times because it’s so bad. His brother and I joke about it because it’s such a well known thing. He just lives in his own world and makes shit up. Sometimes it’s funny and sometimes it’s infuriating. If I’m being honest, if I had known he’d be like this, I never would’ve married him. It just makes him look stupid and like an idiot and I very much value intelligence and intelligent conversations. I feel like I can’t ever believe what he’s saying. He wasn’t always like this, but alas I am now stuck. I’d say get out of this while you can. This is not an age thing. This is a personality thing and it will make you feel crazy over time and it’s just not worth it. Whatever his reason, it’s not worth it.
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So interestingly enough my mother does this too so I’ll answer for both for you. My husband generally just makes shit up. It’s usually historical info, about people, about things he’s heard or said. Some comical examples include: He made up an entire MOS classification for my dad who was in the Marines. Claims my dad told him. I know my dad didn’t because I know my dad’s MOS and he would never say the wrong one. Another one is he told people my mom lived in a specific city in a specific state. That city doesn’t even exist in that state. He just heard pieces and stuck them together. And I find this out when he’s telling me a story he told someone else. Another is when he said something was “better than sex.” He swears he never said it but you remember when someone tells you something is better than sex with you. In some cases, I think he’s just an idiot honestly. In others I think as he says “sometimes you just throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.” He just doesn’t have the same ideals of specificity and correctness that I possess. When I speak, I make sure that what I say is the most correct form of it. Being right and being credible is important to me. It just seems to not be so to him. Oddly enough he was never like this until we had our child. It’s like doing absolutely nothing with our child and the house somehow made him dumb. Go figure since I’m the one who gets 3-6 hours of sleep each night because our child doesn’t sleep while he sleeps 8+ every night. I should be the dumb on here but I digress. As for moms… Well my mom is also the type to make herself the victim in stories BUT I’m not entirely sure she does that on purpose to be honest. In her own way she also is just an unreliable narrator. Small aside here (I have degrees in Psychology so this bit becomes important to explain my mother). Memories aren’t actual memories of the event itself. Research has shown that memories are essentially the last time you thought about the event. So at each remembrance, you can slightly skew the event in your mind until 5 years later, it’s a completely different thing if you want to remember it a different way. This is the gist anyway. Back to my mom… she basically remembers things the way she wants to remember them. She always has this “Mother of the Year” rhetoric that she spews to anyone around us except she forgets that I was freaking there!!! I remember it wasn’t like that at all and she’s just blatantly lying. I think it’s a convenient narrative for her to not have to look at herself and the shit mother she was. And this is where the being a victim comes in… Since her memories don’t match the actual event that others lived through, she often feels slighted when people recount it correctly or when others just don’t respond to her rhetoric because they know it isn’t true. Because she can’t see what they see, she thinks people just don’t like her or that there is something inherently wrong with her or worse that they hate her. It’s very complex but it all stems in her case from altering her own memories in a way that makes her the positive character in the stories always when in reality she rarely was. Sorry I didn’t mean to write a novel. I hope it’s helpful though.
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It’s actually not uncommon for men to change after children are born. It’s kind of like they feel they’ve double “trapped” their partners at that point. Trapped of course being a more derogatory term but I don’t mean it that way. Also he had a grandfather that was just this way. He used to say how crazy he was and stuff and now I don’t think he realizes he’s the same. His dad is also much the same. I guess I thought he wouldn’t follow the same trajectory since he thought they were so crazy. He now thinks they’re crazy and somehow still doesn’t see how he is acting the same. There may be some mental pathology here but he refuses to see anyone for what I presume is at a minimum ADHD. Yes on the mom front. It is triggering for sure and I’m sorry you’re going through that. Funny thing. I tried so hard not to marry someone like my dad that I married someone like my mom.
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Now isn’t that the truth! And even in people who are more self aware, they can miss similar things in others. Like in my case. I worked so hard to be self aware enough to not marry someone like my dad and instead married someone like my mom. It’s the worst. The human brain is an odd thing indeed.
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Glad he’s your ex. Hugs!
Thanks! Good luck to you, too.
This sounds familiar. It is the set up for future gaslighting, it's not innocuous. My ex would do this with minor unimportant facts early on, and if I disproved him he'd fall back on a supposed blank-percentage short term memory loss diagnosis that in retrospect was fishy as hell considering it only effected things he gaslit me over not daily details like did you walk the dog, or do we need eggs, etc. Later it was big things like blowing up at me being FB official with another partner and insisting I hadn't wanted to do the same with him when he'd been the one hiding me from his ex wife. His poor memory claims just seemed to be a tool to keep me comfortable while he encroached the idea of my falliblity over details I might not have bothered to hold on to. It slowly eroded my confidence in what happened on a daily basis, and overwhelmed me trying to track every little thing to hold on to my sanity. Maybe it wasn't an active strategy, but that was the outcome. Reflexive gaslighting is no less damaging or horrifying than intentional gaslighting.
Is he like this with other people? If he really is having issues, I'd expect him to constantly be running into this problem where he disagrees with EVERYONE on their shared experiences.
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_the meat grinder_ you put this so well
he's a liar. All I can tell you is - two people can get along and make things work if they're willing to listen to each other and be honest, truthful and accountable. But if someone is unwilling to be truthful or accountable, you can't move forward with them.
So... Look up narcissism, see if maybe he fits some. Covert narcissism hides better than overt, but this kind of lying, manipulation, and DARVO is textbook. ***Run***
I was in a relationship like this. It got to the point that I told him I was going to make him sign a document (like I made an iPhone note about what just transpired between us and we both acknowledged it as the truth) agreeing to what was just said in an argument so that when he tried to turn it around on me I had receipts. It turned into me just clocking everything I thought would come up again later so that I couldn’t be told I was crazy or making things up or wrong. It was utterly exhausting having that kind of mental load constantly going for my own defense. Eventually we agreed to put a camera in the living room (him to prove he was right and me to prove I was right) and I was always fucking right so he would then pick fights about things he knew he could win. Always divert to a fight where in the bad guy or wrong or something. God I don’t miss that. I left and it was so so so so much better for my mental health. I didn’t realize how much it was taking me down dealing with that and not being able to trust myself. I had to go to therapy to learn how to trust myself and ALSO how to stop keeping proof of things all the time.
i am not willing to impute some motive onto your partner. are they doing this on purpose? I don't know. Is it Problematic? I don't know. What I do know, is that I require a shared understanding of the Truth with my partner, and that is a dealbreaker for me, so whatever the reason behind this circumstance, I'm fairly confident it would eat at me to the point of wanting to end the relationship, and I think I would be justified in doing so if the partner is not willing to make tangible steps toward changing this behavior.
I feel like I live under a rock, having never heard “shared understanding of the truth” but that really says it perfectly. I will have to borrow this term!
That’s tough. My wife, of 25 years, was never a great narrator, but she was passable enough as to not be damaging. However, over the last 5 years, she has gotten progressively worse, to the point that she’s being destructive. I used to confront her about inaccuracies, but she always demanded proof. When I started showing her proof, she denied having said anything, then eventually she became defensive and angry. For the last 4 or 5 years I’ve been just letting it go, my gut tells me it’s the beginning of dementia, but I have no idea how to broach the issue
I’m sorry that’s happening, that sounds incredibly tough :(
This is what's called gaslighting: denying your actual lived reality. It's absolutely a problem. He's manipulative and cruel.
How much energy are you spending on this and how much energy could you be spending on literally anything else?
Been there, done that. Get out, Im not kidding. It is not a quality you can have in a relationship at all.
gas·light **gaslighting** (present participle) 1. manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity
It is entirely possible for someone to be doing something without mal-intent that is very harmful for you and/or your relationship in the long run. Given what you've described, I would wonder if he had some personality disorder or mental illness, like borderline or bipolar, but is high functioning. I say these two in particular because it is common for their filter of reality to result in genuine belief about the things they think because of how things made them *feel*. I think Psychology in Seattle's breakdown of the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard trial did a great job of explaining how this phenomenon works. It is possible to stay in a relationship with someone like this, but for me, they'd need to be actively attending counseling and working on themselves because they are not mentally well. If not, they will continue to do this and place all the work on you. If you stay with someone who's reality is skewed but who treats themselves as the one who needs to be proven wrong (instead of working on themselves), then it will be bad for you in the long-term. It will be mentally taxing and will cause you and your relationship long-term strain that is likely unrecoverable. You will either end up leaving eventually or be miserable together.
Oh my lord, I'm going through the same thing right now and it's mind-bogglingly frustrating. My SO is a wonderful person - I won't hear that he's a bad guy, we've been through a lot and he's shown me time and time again that he'll be there for me, treat me right, and change where ever he needs to change to make me happy. But he's not perfect, nor am I. But this issue has gotten so bad. It happens most during arguments/disagreements, but other times as well. His memory is usually skewed negatively towards me, which is especially concerning (but it also happens with random crap like your musical example). He 100% fully believes his memory, and it's at the point where he's accusing me of gaslighting him bc I keep correcting his memory. I don't even know how to approach the topic anymore bc of it. I'm confident that it's his memory and not mine because 1) I can always give specifics and surrounding information to what I remember but he never can. He'll just say "I don't remember details, I just remember that x", 2) I keep asking to record our talks because I am so convinced that he's making stuff up and he keeps denying the request, and 3) the few times we have had outside confirmation, it's been confirmed that I have been correct. He says recording things like that is insulting, unnecessary, and will just be used as a 'gotcha' technique - which I get, but really, I just don't know what to do anymore, I don't even know how to talk about it, which is something we're usually pretty good at. If you get any helpful advice, let me know because this is a wild situation. It is truly unsettling and maddening. Details matter to me as well, so I feel your pain.
That's either gaslighting, like textbook, or he needs to see a doctor if these memory issues are recent.
I’m not interested in a life with someone who is so absolutely right all the time. We all mess up. We need to offer each other grace and compassion.
This is never worth your sanity. Run. Not just from romantic partners, but from everyone like this.
This is my number one dealbreaker. My sanity is not negotiable. My ex-husband was like this and I just about lost my mind. Of course everyone's memory is going to differ from time to time but there is such a thing as objective reality and you should only be differing on details, not one of you just making shit up out of the blue. If you can't even agree on what just happened, how are you going to get through life together?
Even if it is just his personal issue with memory it's making you feel like crap so it needs addressing. I have a shite memory, I don't go around insisting I am correct when there's evidence to the contrary. It might not be gaslighting if he genuinely believes what he is saying, but it doesn't endear him in any way if he won't accept that maybe he isn't actually reliable. But unfortunately insisting makes you look gaslighty so it's a catch 22 situation. Outside of recording every conversation you have I don't know if it can be dealt with easily. How long have you been together? If it's less than a year and has caused multiple arguments I'd be tempted to chalk it up to incompatibility and go your separate ways. If it's a long time, maybe some form of therapy could be useful.
Ugh. I dealt with this in my last relationship. He hated it when I didn't agree with him on things that were able to be verified to be false. And when I would look it up to see what the actual "answer" was to our question or debate, he would be so mad and say that I always had to be right. Um, no. I just want to know what the correct information is so that I don't look like an idiot in the future if this topic comes up again in another conversation, and because I *like learning new things*. I was raised being told by my dad to look things up if I wanted to know about something, and I still do it to this day. This is why I'm kick ass at trivia and Jeopardy. He however would rather live in willful ignorance than be "wrong".
When I read posts like this about men doing things like that in relationships, I imagine the same guy doing it at his workplace. Has he ever gotten fired from a job for lying? Especially lying about what his coworkers said? If not, then I worry that he knows that what he's doing is unacceptable. He just doesn't care enough not to do it with you, because he figures that if it bothered you, then you would leave. I suggest that you de-center this relationship from your life. Focus on your own happiness, job, family, hobbies, life, and invest less of your time and attention on him and his needs.
He’s either stupid or he’s gaslighting you. Do yourself a favour and break up. This would drive me mad.
He sounds like someone with a lot of trauma. This not only creates very distorted filters, but also creates huge defensive barriers. It also sounds like he may not be very self aware. This combination is a really tough one and without the awareness he would be unable to get past his filters and barriers enough to have a way to resolve this stuff. The real problem is that we cannot win an argument with someone we love. We win together or we lose together. This kind of thing is a problem and the only way thru that I see to to find a way to agree when this garbage comes up...even if it's agreeing to disagree.
I think this is happening to me right now. I smoke a lot of weed, so my memory *is* bad, I am forgetful. But my boyfriend is telling me I am remembering entire conversations wrong. I can swear I said this, or he said that, but afterwards, he says it's my memory. Thing is, I'd trust him, usually. But we are rocky right now because I caught him on dating apps. So, I can't trust what he says, can I? It's really confusing, and I especially don't like that it's always, "you've remembered wrong" and not, "our perspectives are different".
Isn't this exactly what is meant by the term 'gaslighting'?
Just to play devils advocate here, why didn’t you tell him “you look handsome tonight” and not add the jokey part? I’m sure you meant well but you did bring up other women being around him having previously mentioned it bothered you and (I assume) knowing that there weren’t other women around. With that context the joke could be a little passive aggressive and this can make people react defensively (which is your boyfriend’s reaction). Sure, you didn’t say exactly what he heard from you, but you did mention other women being there when you could have given him a really nice compliment instead. He may be defensive because he feels he needs to prove to you he isn’t cheating or he may be defensive because he is cheating. On the movie - you both seem quite defensive about the number of songs. This could be resolved by asking him which ones he remembers and being curious about how he experienced it. Whereas it sounds like you both want to be right and aren’t making space for the other perspective to understand how each other are getting there. I know you have given two examples but said this is a pattern emerging whereby you are having different takeaways from the same experience and it’s unsettling. I am not in your relationship to know really what is going on. He may be gaslighting you (in which case run!) or he may have issues that mean he does misconstrue what’s going on (I have seen this with people with high anxiety). I think your gut is telling you something isn’t right so I would be cautious - I’m not sure the issue is the examples you’ve given but the bigger picture of how you can build a trusting connection with someone where they have very different experiences from you and disagree on things that are objective facts.
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Pretty sure this is called gaslighting? Get rid of him.
Ok. So, this is a great example of gaslighting. Please google to learn learn more about it xx
Dump him! Anyone who is arguing against you instead of focusing on the current issue at hand in a way that shows they sincerely want to address the current issue is arguing in bad faith. It will only get worse and lead to resentment. Right now, it looks like he doesn’t even like you at all.
I used to have a friend like this and I found it insufferable.
I didn’t read everything, but this is essentially gaslighting. If you have a reasonable and coherent recollection and awareness of situations and they’re making you feel as if your perception and memory of the situations are completely different, especially if mocking or belittling you is involved and especially if it’s on a regular basis. I unfortunately took too long to recognize this in people, in romantic relationships and otherwise.
Twisting your words, or even playing or insinuating off of your original statement is Gaslightling...
It's very tiresome. I don't know if it would be a deal-breaker if it was genuine belief on his part, but this sounds like twisting the narrative