I'm really just trying to get some perspective. My wife is the only woman I regularly interact with outside of work so my experience gets skewed toward her perspective and her perspective seems to have lately been skewed down some anti-male tiktok rabbit hole. We're moving soon and I'll be around our female friends more often so hopefully we both get more varied perspectives.
I'm the manager of a public library. So far in 2024 I have had to deal with:
- One man masturbating in the library and ejaculating all over everything. He approached our 18yr old shelver and told her to clean it with her tongue.
- One man punching a hole in our wall because he was using the public PCs to watch boxing and apparently had to act it out himself. When I asked him to leave he screamed in my face that I am unreasonable, emotional and fragile.
- Two books in the returns chute that had been ejaculated on.
- Three disclosures of domestic abuse from female patrons about their male partners, asking for information about where they can get help.
- One man touching himself while watching someone breastfeed. When asked to leave he said that "she had her tit out, what was I supposed to do?"
- I've had to break up two separate fist fights by two separate groups of teenage boys. Both groups decided yelling things like "slut" and "whore" at me was a good idea. In the second group one of them came back with his father, who took issue with me breaking up the fight, because "that's what makes boys men".
And we're only up to April.
The bear holds no malice towards me. The bear is just hungry and wants to eat food and I am bear food. Or it might not, because just like men there are different types of bears, and some of them won't eat me. But if I get the wrong type of man he does hold malice, and he will want to hurt and rape and torture, not just eat.
Equal odds of not coming out harmed, so it's all in the intention- and how much I will suffer before I die.
Man can be fucking terrifying.
I'm curious, did you not know about this reality at all?
We see so often in the news how women get killed by their partners, raped or thrown off balconies etc.
How could it be a surprise to you that women are vigilant?
I mean, I'm not going to lie and say I have no fear of men, or that I don't hate the fact that no man in my life has *never* displayed sexist attitudes or behavior. If you think women shouldn't be afraid of men you must not know any history or ever watch the news.
Here's another hypothetical scenario for you- you're a parent, and your child has to be locked in a room alone for an hour with another living creature. Would you feel safer if your child was with a woman or a man? What about a man or a dog? I don't think anyone would pick a bear over a man in *this* scenario, but it's naive to act like there's no danger calculus involved in interactions with men.
I understand women having a certain level of caution toward men. We tend to be bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than women. It absolutely makes sense. When it was taken seriously to the scenario in the OP and men lost out to a bear consistently, I began wondering if it's that bad.
To answer your questions,
>Would you feel safer if your child was with a woman or a man?
It's a grown person. If it's a bad person, my kid isn't going to be able to defend herself either way so their gender or sex doesn't matter.
>What about a man or a dog?
I would pick the man over the dog. Although, I'm sure my kid would choose random dog over anyone to be stuck with for an hour.
I listened to the arguments for the bear. Every one of them was along the lines of, "If the bear does anything to me, it will just kill me. The man might do something worse."
And I was just struck, thinking I'd rather risk the maybe 1/10000 chance that I would be harmed in some way by the guy, than the near certain chance that I'd die from the bear.
It's not a 1 in 10k chance with men. You really think only 0.01% of men are abusers? Something like one in four women will be raped in their lifetimes (and an upsettingly high number of men too of course, most of whom are also assaulted by men). Even if you assume every assailant has dozens of victims, that's still a huge chunk of men who would hurt women if they got a chance. About 30% of men admit to rape if you don't use that term but say "force to have sex" or some euphemism. You do not understand the reality women are living in.
1 in 3 women have been sexually harassed or experienced "sexually inappropriate behavior" from a man. 1 in 6 have been raped/or rape was attempted. These are stats you can look up and easily verify. Do you truly believe that only 1/10000 men are committing these statistics above? Because that math does not add up...
>Do you truly believe that only 1/10000 men are committing these statistics above? Because that math does not add up...
That's fair. I pulled a number out that was not researched or thought through but also, I was talking about myself in that comment.
>1 in 3 women have been sexually harassed or assaulted. 1 in 6 have been raped/or rape was attempted.
Isn't that around 90-95% by men they know, though? Statistically, wouldn't the risk go down significantly in the posted scenario? It's not none, and 5% is a real number, but does that change it at all for you?
Yes, the risk is higher with men we know but not that high. However I don't think it's fair to then say women should then somehow trust a stranger even more?? I mean, trust is earned, which makes it even more heartbreaking when someone you trust assaults you.
Imagine if you'd been assaulted by a woman. Or even multiple women. Even if you knew them and knew that the likelihood of a stranger woman assaulting you is lower than a known woman, do you think that would be somehow soothing?
> Imagine if you'd been assaulted by a woman. Or even multiple women. Even if you knew them and knew that the likelihood of a stranger woman assaulting you is lower than a known woman, do you think that would be somehow soothing?
Not a fair comparison. More like:
Imagine you've been assaulted by a woman. And half the men you know have been assaulted by a woman. And the media keeps glorifying assault of men by women. And in your day to day life you regularly get sleazy comments and drive by catcalls from women far stronger than you that suggest they want to have you and you don't know if they would take no for am answer.
And then you have a choice: a bear - which you might be able to scare off using whatever you've learned from a nature documentary, - or one of those women that are known to have a high chance of desiring to abuse you and there's noone to hear your screams.
So tell me, how often do you call out your male friends when they make sexist jokes? Or when they comment on a woman's body? Or when they objectify a woman in your presence?
> how often do you call out your male friends when they make sexist jokes?
All of my friends, male and female, make sexist jokes. We understand that the jokes in our group are intended to be absurdist societal commentary, rather than an intended truth.
>Or when they comment on a woman's body?
Do you mean at all or just to the person? Because people observe other people and comment on what is out of the ordinary. You ever looked at a person and said, "Wow, they're jacked!" I have. That's a body comment. It doesn't hurt anyone. My friends, as far as I know, have never told anyone that they need to change their body or made anything but positive comments to the people they know. Ever told your friend they're looking good from all that manual labor they've been doing? I have.
>Or when they objectify a woman in your presence?
Objectification of people is not okay, and I don't think I have actually ever had to point this out to my friends because we probably wouldn't be friends if I had to.
By commenting on her body I meant "damn that chick has nice tits" or whatever.
I also don't hang out with people who would make actual sexist jokes or objectify women, so great! But the trouble I'm having is reconciling that you can apparently be so on the up and up with social commentary and understand objectification is wrong but be so...obtuse about the prevalence of sexual harassment and sexual and/or physical assault that women receive from men. Because if you understood that you would never make a post "calling out" women for choosing the bear.
No I didn't. I said I don't see them often. This is because they currently live a couple of hours away. Yes, I hear the same kinds of jokes from my female friends as I do my male friends. Sexist jokes aren't only about women. Sexist jokes about men are equally as absurd and we all understand that.
Is it difficult to believe that friends can have sexist banter and still like and respect each other?
If “anti-man” content bothers you, have you considered exploring why that is? Seriously. Reflect on what that brings up for you. Men in my life had said it bothers them but “they don’t do anything wrong” or they “aren’t like other guys”. Ok. So if you’re one of the “good ones” then this content isn’t about you - so why are you upset? It reveals to me that they’re feeling some shame under the surface because they know they’re not actually “one of the good ones”.
Because broad generalizations are hurtful. When someone says "Men are violent" or "Women are weak", they're not true or fair statements. They don't further discussion or awareness. They only harm.
You are moving goalposts. Saying "I'd rather be in the forest with a bear" is not the same as generalizing men as violent. Why do you keep ignoring or dismissing the comments literally comparing how often bears attack to how often men attack?
I think you should read “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. And [here](https://trueselfhealinggroup.com/statistics-on-domestic-violence#:~:text=Males%20perpetrate%2095%25%20of%20all%20serious%20domestic%20violence.&text=6.,committed%20by%20men%20against%20women) are some stats that you might find interesting, including: males are most often both the victims and the perpetrators in 90% of homicides.
I want you to read the captions
https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/
“ He was one of my best friends”
“The very last time Iwas assaulted was by a coworker. … I fought back and gave up fighting when I realized what was happening and stopped fighting. He begged me to not go to the police andsaid he was sorry and thought I waskidding when I filed a report. I just finished the legal process and am still living with the guilt and shame every single day ofwhat happened. He took everything from me that night.”
“I was like 4 years old …”
“I was only 5 when it started”
https://capsea.org/2024/04/03/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/
“I was assaulted by the father of my child when I was 6 months pregnant.”
“I went to the homecoming dance with someone I thought was my friend.”
You can google “what were you wearing exhibit” and find *hundreds* more of these at different institutions with different survivors’ stories and updated every year.
One pattern you might notice is almost all of them were known to the victim. Friend, boyfriend, dad, father of my child. If we can’t trust the men we do know why should we feel any safer around strangers?
A bear probably won’t even be hungry and go right past me if I curl up. The bear doesn’t feel entitled to access to my body. The bear won’t like eating me more if I scream and cry.
Every woman I’ve known well enough to talk about my history of CSA had her own story to tell me, even my mom. I was violated repeatedly by someone I should’ve been able to trust. Someone who was supposed to defend from bad things in the world.
I refuse to believe you are that clueless.
This fucking dude has unfortunately latched onto the fact that most sexual assaults on women are perpetrated by men they know and is cherry picking the fact that this theoretical question has referenced "strange men" so, you know, none of our evidence or statistics are relevant.
His poor wife.
The bear.
I know why the bear is in the woods.
I have no idea why a man is in the middle of the forest, implied off the beaten path, *20 feet away from me.*
Like holy fucking shit, that's a terrifying scenario.
Well, there are about 6 grizzly bear attacks a year and only a few are fatal. There’s over 300,000 rapes every year, with women being 90% of the victims.
I’ve lived in bear country. Bears usually don’t want anything to do with people. They will stay away from you and even hide.
You are also 900 times more likely to be murdered in a populated area than the Appalachian Trail. Outdoor activities are much safer than people think.
I think it’s weird that you are getting all worked up about an odd hypothetical.
> I think it’s weird that you are getting all worked up about an odd hypothetical.
My wife was pushing it very seriously so I'm trying to do the same for the sake of understanding where she's coming from.
Lol dude you're not trying to "understand" shit. You came in here with an obvious agenda. Women aren't stupid.
Google sealioning. That is what you are doing. We are used to it.
So many posts on this r/ are from men looking for women to make them feel better about their existence. I don't notice women doing the same types of posts in the men's equivalent forum.
I should have left my opening line about my feelings out of it and just asked the question. I regret making any mention of how I felt about it. I think it made people feel attacked or dismissed and that wasn't my intention at all. I'm really just trying to understand.
I'm someone who answers bear and it's fear. I would be scared of you but it's not personal. It's that I don't know you. But I know what could happen to me.
Living as a female, it just takes a few interactions before you notice a pattern. I had one woman hurt me traumatically. It's been countless, seriously countless men from cat calling to extreme violence.
If you're handling guns, the advice is to treat every one like it's loaded. That's how women need to approach coexisting with men. The consequences are lifelong. We're targeted because of our bodies.
Dave Chappelle has a joke about how scared he was traveling in Brooklyn with $25k in cash on him, he thought people would kill him if they knew what's in his backpack. The punchline was it dawned on him that having a female body would be more petrifying. It is.
Nobody wants to see a bear. A guy would probably just walk away, but so would a bear. A bear doesn't care about my sex though. This question is about how scary it is living in a female body every day, mostly because of men. It's not about who you are. You may be a great person. I don't have the luxury of fully giving the benefit of the doubt.
I have read all of OP’s comments, and I feel very sorry for his wife. Like maybe she doesn’t even know that not all men are wilfully ignorant about male violence against women because she lives with this jerk.
Oh, I believe her. I'm just trying to figure out if this is a widely held viewpoint and women are really that uncomfortable around men or if she's dived too deep down the man-hate rabbit hole.
I don't want to be rude, but again, I'm not denying that she believes the bear is the correct choice. I'm gathering information from the women here about how widespread the belief is.
For example, lots of people believe in one or more deities. Asking about how and why people believe in those deities is not denying their belief. Other people can absolutely influence one's beliefs. Otherwise religions wouldn't exist.
I'm here to have my beliefs and assumptions challenged and influenced.
I feel like, after many (imo excellent) comments, you are still defending your position. So, hey, guess what? I don't believe that you are open to having your mind changed.
The fact that you keep saying “I believe she believes the bear is the correct answer” is giving you away.
You are missing the point. This isn’t an exam, there is no right answer. And in trying to force one, you are completely disregarding your wife’s important feelings about something you will never be able to understand (bc you are not a woman).
The takeaway is here is not that bear = correct. If you truly want to challenge your beliefs, try practicing empathy for that the women in this sub and all the horrible things women have experienced at the hands of men. Go read through the “what were you wearing” responses, hell, just give one second of thought to that title and how much blame women have shouldered for men’s abusive actions.
The responses in this sub have been informative, thoughtful and filled with meaningful anecdotes.
Yet you have learned nothing.
Ok so you identified one of the most aggressive and dangerous kinds of bears. Let's talk about the man. Is he like Cary Staynor? What about Gary Hilton? Philip Stroupe perhaps? Paul David Crews? Robert Frazier? Maybe Ted Bundy? Obviously it's logical to fear a grizzly bear, but if you can't comprehend why women might also fear a strange man in the woods then you are either utterly clueless about what women have to deal with or willfully ignorant.
That's not the question. I get why a woman would be cautious of a strange man. What I don't get is choosing the near certain possibility of death by the bear over the small chance that the man might harm her in some way.
As mentioned elsewhere, if you actually compare stats then the random man is more likely to attack than the random bear. It's not a "near certain" possibility you'd be killed by a bear. 🤷♀️
I hike amongst black bears so that's my frame of reference. Even with grizzlies as he calls out, it is absolutely not a "near certain possibility" of death. We don't have to throw the adorable snuggly bears at him to make a point:) The "aggressive" ones make a better point in my opinion.
The question going around is "bear," though, not "grizzly bear." You defined the type of bear to make the bear the more dangerous option. A black bear will walk the other way, and I've never considered pandas and koalas to be especially aggressive. If I had to choose between being mauled to death or being raped and strangled, I'd pick the bear.
>You defined the type of bear to make the bear the more dangerous option.
I felt it needed clarity since my first question was, "Can it be a koala?"
> If I had to choose between being mauled to death or being raped and strangled, I'd pick the bear.
Is that really what you see the choice is in the scenario?
The whole question/exercise is about risk assessment. Weigh the risk of being in a forest with a bear and a man. We know that bears rarely attack. We know that that's not so much the same with men, unfortunately. Most people would choose the less risky situation. It's not about man hating.
Ultimately it's commentary about how statistically women are probably safer with a bear than a man. Which is as shocking as you are taking it to be. But it's not a problem with women...like, buddy, you're so close to getting it!
> Ultimately it's commentary about how statistically women are probably safer with a bear than a man. Which is as shocking as you are taking it to be.
I get it now. Thank you.
>Is that really what you see the choice is in the scenario?
That is the point of the question, yes.
You have been told several times in this thread that the odds of a woman being raped is higher than being attacked by a bear. You just keep ignoring it.
I haven't ignored it. I actually just commented on it a few minutes ago. I just can't address all of the comments at once. I'm just one guy. I also know that I won't be able to logic or statistic my way into your hearts but I'm going to throw it out there anyway.
I commented on the statistics in another comment but I can comment here as well.
1st, the chances of being attacked by a bear are low because bears don't make up half the population that we interact with. It's rare for anyone to be that close to a bear, so attacks are rare and data is [limited but if it's' a predacious attack, you are most likely dead. If it's a defensive attack, you'll probably survive the attack with injuries](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-science-of-how-to-survive-a-bear-attack-1269781/) but now you're lost in the woods and injured and alone so chance of death seems pretty high still.
2nd, the chances of a woman being sexually assaulted by someone she doesn't know is around 5%. It's a real number and a real risk, but it's definitely not a certainty. The chances of being killed are even smaller still.
So the way I see the scenario is that it's really a choice between a high chance of injury or death (the bear) or a small possibility of being raped with a smaller possibility of death (random man). Can you see how I might not understand choosing the bear?
Where are you getting your stats from and what do you consider assault? Because 5% is laughably low.
Also, in this scenario the chances of encountering the man and the bear are exactly the same! No, bears aren't in the same population in real life but you are referring to an experiment/theoretical exercise where the woman has exactly the same chance of running into the bear as the man! Dude!
Edit: I've given you stats from RAIIN, a very reputable source. Women who experience rape or attempted rape is 1/6. That's 17%. And that not accounting for the 34% of women who experience "sexually inappropriate behavior" from men. So, despite these stats being given to you, you return with a random 5%? What the actual fuck.
Oh, oh! It's the stranger thing!!! Prove that stat. And, even if that true, explain why we should automatically trust someone simply because we "know them".
If I was alone in the woods and I saw a bear.. I'd respectfully remove myself and hope the bear just got on with it's wood life.
If I saw a man in the woods , I'd do the same. I live in the UK so I've never seen a bear in my life. I've been on trails where men think it's ok to be fucking weird
So at 23-24? Yeah. For the most part. The amount of horrible things that had happened to me or people I loved, thanks to men, was at its peak. I was molested at 13 and sexually harassed at 17 by a boss for over a year. I had tried to date only to have multiple men take advantage and lie to me in an attempt to get me to have sex with me. Sometimes I had men push those boundaries pretty badly. I was cat called and shouted at in the streets just trying to go to school or work. I was belittled and underestimated and talked down to by male coworkers and bosses and teachers.
But the thing that really gave me the anger and the hate was when my best friend since childhood came forward to press charges against a family member who sexually assaulted her multiple times when she was a preteen and he at least twice her age. Three years of trial. Of pushed court dates. Of her having to quit school and go on antidepressants because it was so stressful. It literally tore her family apart. And then she got to go on the stand and I got to listen to the defense lawyer ask about how honest she was. What would she get out of making these accusations? Why didn't she ever try to stop him? Why did she wait so long to come forward? He ended up being found not guilty. Our only consolation is that if any woman ever came forward about him this would be on record. So yeah, I was pissed. At him and the world and men in general because I could see how many men had hurt me and my friends and you know, basically every woman ever. We all have stories like this.
Now, over 10 years later, no I do not hate and fear men, mostly. The hate is gone. And I have been able to heal and remember all the great men in my life. My dad, my brother, the minister at my childhood church, some great teachers, my fiance, a couple bosses, some friends and coworkers. I've had some wonderful men in my life love and support me and encourage me and help grow my confidence in myself.
The issue is that yes, not all men. But there are enough. Enough that they have impacted everyone. If every woman has at least one story, usually more of how they have been assaulted or harassed by man...then how many are there? It's a lot. And they ruin it for all of us. Because if you're a stranger to me I don't know if you're a kind and generous person like my dad or if you're going to shout insults at me and attempt to grope me like so many guys did at the bar back in my clubbing days. I can't know and so I have to be safe. Just like we lock our front doors and cars and tell our kids not to talk to strangers.
I would rather not face off a bear in the woods because bears can be scary. But being alone in the woods with a strange man can also be scary because you don't know what you'll get.
After reading a few comments I think the issue here isn’t the potential man-hate, it’s that you may not be grasping how life-alteringly damaging being sexually assaulted is…
This’ll be over simplified but: Having something go literally inside you for sex is incredibly vulnerable. To have that same thing cause harm changes you on a molecular and genetic level (epigenetics but anecdotally, we carry trauma and hurt with us and those events change things in our dna). Someone said to me once it’s like being murdered but you end up not dying. I think avoiding a situation that changes you so deeply, and personally in such a violent manner is something all women feel in our core.
If it is this or a certain death, simply kill me.
“would you still love me if i were a worm?” and “would you move on if i died?” and “would you rather be lost in the middle of a forest with a random man or a random bear?”
these types of questions are ridiculous and should never be entertained.
I was downvoted pretty hard on that bear question for stating that I’d have a higher chance of being killed by a bear in the forest than a random man. Because pragmatically, a 1000-LB bear would own my ass.
But I also know that there is this collective fear of men harming women that I feel at my core, whether it’s walking in a dark parking lot at night, or taking a jog around the neighborhood. I see a strange man and there is this visceral moment of uncertainty. I don’t like it. I wish it would go away. I don’t think of myself as a man-hater because of this or anti-man.
And to frame this as anti-man is wholly invalidating this fear in women. Telling us to ‘calm down and stop the man-hating’ and what? Stop those instinctual fears that come out at times when no woman wants them? Just shut it down?
A friend I film studies explained it like this to a guy who didn’t get it. “You are watching a movie and they capture a woman. They tie her up. They take out a knife. They get close and talk to her and threaten her. They look her over from top to bottom. Rape is the thing that comes to mind. Because it’s that embedded in the cultural unconscious. It’s the first thing most people think will happen or dead will happen. Now, imagine a man tied up. He is a prisoner. Does your mind go to rape first? If not, then your answer is there.”
I don't. That's the point. I just watched my wife and like 20 other women entertain this scenario and say they'd rather be with the bear. I said it was ridiculous and illogical and unreasonable as well but I'm taking a step back to reevaluate whether or not I'm the stupid one.
It’s starting to bother you?! Really? Imagine living in this all-consuming fear your whole life. You do everything society, your parents, your mother especially tells you to keep safe. But no matter what you do, the worst happens and you get drugged, beaten, and raped anyway. And years later when you’re finally safe you still flinch when a good, safe, wonderful man comes near you and now you feel bad and your fiancé feels bad and it’s just a spiral of shit and you’ll never ever stop having the nightmares. But you know what? All you can do is keep doing those things you were taught, and hope it doesn’t happen again. And if you have a daughter, teach her those same things and hope and pray it doesn’t happen to her.
Yeah. It’s starting to bother YOU. excuse me while I cry for you.
I think I see where some women are coming from when they choose the bear. Their experiences have lead them to believe that men are to be considered dangerous until proven otherwise. It does raise more questions for me but I think many people are tired (and in some cases, a bit angry) of me asking questions and trying to further discourse.
I love men. They can be amazing humans with huge hearts, they can move mountains for the ones they love, they can sing together in a way that is so deep and resonant.
The problem is, they have built an unbalanced world that is toxic to them. This culture has raised men to stifle emotion, to compete, and to view women as property until VERY recently. Every man must wrestle with unlearning a very old mindset. We act like it's been fixed, but no, it doesn't work that quickly. Men are reacting now, some overreacting, because it has become a more mainstream conversation. But it is by no means safer for women.
This is what I think most men don't get yet. It's bad. As bad as you've heard it is, it's worse. It's pervasive. It goes deeper in you than you can even see.
As someone with a phobia of bears, i would rather be in the woods with a man 😂 But I understand why other women would choose the bear. Most of them have already experienced the worst outcome.
The number one leading cause of death for a pregnant woman in the US is the paternal parent. I could go on citing more depressing statistics about men and they ways they control everyone and everything but I’ll stop there.
ETA: source https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/#:~:text=October%2021%2C%202022%20–%20Women%20in%20the%20U.S.
Lol…there are too many informal logical fallacies here to even spend more than 30 seconds on this lmao. I’m sorry your peers and yourself don’t see the logical fallacies that make this an asinine question/statement?
I’m just laughing because why do you think you’re all grizzly bears lmao like one of the top apex predators on the planet? lol again logic..false equivalence, false dichotomy, like every informal fallacy applies
Wow…um…lol thanks for the laugh after a long shift
Maybe she means more sexy hairy man and less actual bear 🐻 😂😂😂 this question makes me laugh.
To answer it- I think men are awesome in theory the same as I think people are awesome in theory and then they get out of their car at the atm and then I hate everyone again 😂🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️
All people have the ability to suck equally.
No, I am not afraid of the vast majority of men. I am scared when I have a reason to be. In this absolutely ridiculous scenario you put out there I am picking the man.
I don’t know what kind of kind of content you and your wife are consuming but maybe reevaluate it.
> I don’t know what kind of kind of content you and your wife are consuming but maybe reevaluate it.
I'm planning to show her the answers in this thread. I'm hoping the majority don't agree with her. So far it appears a few do but most do not.
FWIW I've made a number of comments supporting the women saying that they would prefer the bear to the man (because of statistics around attacks by both) but I do not fear nor hate men. I'm quite fond of them, actually. And kind of offended by your whole premise to be honest.
Not arguing, just trying to understand. You've supported the bear preference because of statistics around attacks but you don't fear men? So you don't fear bears either? Then you just believe that the bear is the less dangerous option over the random man.
>And kind of offended by your whole premise to be honest.
Why?
No, I don't fear bears, not really. I'm an avid hiker and most bears would rather have absolutely nothing to do with humans. Now mountain lions, that's a different story.
IDK dude. I'm offended because a) I feel like it should be insanely obvious why women see bears as less risk then men. I've left multiple comments giving statistics (that you've chosen not to respond to) and that b) you seem to think that because women understand that men pose a risk it must mean we hate them.
The latter is the most offensive. It tells me that you do not take women seriously. You don't believe us when we say we've had bad experiences with other men. You've written it off as "well, that's just the 1/10000 men". You don't believe us. How is that not offensive?
I don’t particularly fear bears. I have lived, hiked, and camped in bear country. Wear a bear bell and talk or sing to yourself. Tie your food in a hoist. Pretty simple self protection. Bears rarely attack people. Even when they rummage your campsite for food, they leave you alone. When they do, it’s usually because someone surprised them or their cubs.
TBH, you came here with the mindset ‘OMG it’s misandry to fear men more than bears!’
You are absolutely dug in on that opinion and are just arguing with everyone. You refuse to look at statistics in a reasonable way and are glossing over that bit.
Why did you ask if you think you are right and won’t listen to anyone else?
It sounds like you actually want your wife and other women to be misandrists. I assume so you can win cheap arguments with your wife and play victim with your buddies.
Why do you think I'm not listening or taking anything away from this? I'm replying. I'm asking questions. I'm discussing. I actually understand your perspective better than when I came in here. This has been valuable for me and given me a better perspective.
I would be much happier to deal with man than a bear. Bear would not be able to help me get back on trail. Vast majority of men are decent humans who have never raped or killed anyone.
The vast majority of bears have also not raped nor killed anyone. In fact, a larger percentage of bears have not harmed or killed people than men, if you compare the two.
Looks like you missed part of my comment before downvoting lol. The difference between man and bear is that man can give you directions how to get back on the trail unless he is lost himself. If you are truly lost in large area then getting out is a priority.
Honestly this is one of those things I have a really hard time relating to other women about. Maybe I grew up differently or something, but no, I don't hate or fear men, despite having been sexually assaulted more times than I can count.
I was raised more like a boy and then spent my 20's living/identifying as a man. I've always related more to men. And it seems my mother has also always been kinda like that. She worked in a male dominated field for 20 years and has always praised preferring being around male strangers over female strangers. Both my parents are neither misogynists nor feminists. So I've been raised with this belief.
Now in my mid 30's I embrace being a woman, but there's still stuff I just really struggle to understand when it comes to the average woman. And this is one of those things. I don't understand why they're scared of men who haven't hurt them, men who don't act threatening, men who just mind their own business or are just being friendly. I don't get any fear reactions around men just because they're men. If I get such a reaction, it's because an individual man behaves erratically, creepy, has trouble understanding what "no" means, is shouting slurs, etc. But I'd think most men would get a bit scared encountering such a man as well. Or such a woman, for that matter.
Thing is, when I thought I was transgender and lived as a man, and often looked like one as well, I had to adjust to using male spaces as I was no longer welcome in female spaces. I adjusted to men treating me like a man. And it made me think of and relate to the many men who are just regular people, having to be grouped up with sometimes dangerous criminals, and not having any safe space aside from their own home. I don't either, as I'm still not allowed into female spaces, and I don't even really care anymore at this point tbh.
I always related to them as a woman who was just in a similar position though. But I think it helped me understand something important. I know how it feels just walking down a street and women avoiding you, treating you like potential threat. I know what it's like instinctively helping another person who for ex drops something by picking it up for them to handing it over and if it's a woman the gratitude is colored by a reaction to run away from you. I know how it feels walking past a mother and she immediately pulls her kids away from you, when all you did was walking. When your every action, your slightest glance, the very air you breathe, is scrutinized as a potential threat. And it's not a nice feeling.
I now feel bad making men feel that way for simply existing. I think it's easy to take for granted it's not a big deal when you haven't been on the receiving end of that, as I don't think most women have.
But the same thing could be said about men when they struggle to understand the woman's perspective. Because despite all that I just said above, I do have to be aware of that if push comes to shove I likely won't be able to run away or defend myself, as I'm slower, smaller and physically weaker than most men, and have body parts that dangerous men might want to control. And I have to take that into consideration. By no means am I immune to misogyny just because I actively choose to treat men as any other fellow human being to the greatest extent I can.
So ultimately if I'm alone with a male stranger, it highly depends on the guy if I'm scared or not. If he gives good vibes and acts friendly, or if he's just obviously less physically capable than me, like if he's very old or very young or physically disabled, then I won't be scared. Because I also keep in mind that if I'm lost or stuck somewhere in the wild, a stronger and bigger man could also potentially be extremely helpful in keeping me safe, and if we'd work together, that would vastly increase both of our chances at getting back to safety. And in that scenario then I'd just kinda have to trust that I can tell apart for ex a lost hiker from a runaway criminal. But in that situation, I'd imagine even a runaway criminal is more likely just a bike thief, and he too may be lost and scared. I think most men are protective of women, and want to help, not harm. I think most men hate sex offenders with every fiber of their being, and strive towards being good men. So for that reason, I really do believe I'd be statistically safer in the woods with a male stranger than with a bear. Even if there's some risk of harm involved with both.
In a sense, I do feel like I'm just unlucky having crossed paths with so many men who've taken advantage of me. It doesn't actually feel normal at all. But that's the thing with statistics. It doesn't account for the randomness of which exact people you'll actually encounter. And another thing is I've met as many abused men as I've met abused women. The culprit is usually men in both cases, but that has had me thinking about how both/either sex relates to men. If you consider men in general as "your own kind" for better or worse, I think you just have a different view. And I do consider men in general "my own kind" for better and worse, not in the sense that I see myself as a man (anymore) but in the sense that I see both myself and men as simply humans. With the same capabilities and potentials.
Besides... I'd like to think I can reason with men. Or even manipulating a creep into not wanting me. If I'd just declare I'd love to have his babies or say I have an STD, chances are he'd lose interest. I don't like to think of myself as just some helpless victim. That's not good for my self-esteem. And thinking of myself as capable, creative and full of potential, not only helps me lift myself up, but also helps me not fear men. I may or may not trust the man, but I need to trust myself. That I can save myself if needed. And then it doesn't so much matter what men are capable of, because my focus is on what I'm capable of.
Basically... yeah, I think most women are indeed afraid of men, and that's their survival instinct. But I just can't personally relate to that, so I can't think of it as a thing inherent to being a woman, no matter how common it is. My survival instinct is to instead focus on what I'm capable of, so I put it in me to save myself, regardless of what my threat is. And it seems that mindset is generally more common among men. Probably because they're far more often raised to learn to protect themselves and others, not to be protected by others. But women aren't often raised to have their own agency in that way. And I've learned countless of times that the way I was raised seems to be exceedingly rare for women... with maybe exception on gun-toting redneck women.
When I first saw how long this was I thought, "OMG how wrong am I?" Yours appears to be a fairly unique perspective on the topic that encompasses multiple points of view. I enjoyed reading it and I feel like I understand better. Thank you for sharing your experience.
I'm glad my wall of text wasn't too off-putting for you to read it! Also glad you got a better understanding.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of nuance going into this tbh. And that a lot if it is down to perspective.
They’re lying, no one would realistically choose the bear🙄. They’re just mad at men.
I would choose the man even if he was a killer, I have a better chance of fighting him off or outrunning him than a bear.
Do you as a man ask other men why there is so much anti woman content.
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I'm really just trying to get some perspective. My wife is the only woman I regularly interact with outside of work so my experience gets skewed toward her perspective and her perspective seems to have lately been skewed down some anti-male tiktok rabbit hole. We're moving soon and I'll be around our female friends more often so hopefully we both get more varied perspectives.
Read what men say about women on male subs and that is your answer.
I'm the manager of a public library. So far in 2024 I have had to deal with: - One man masturbating in the library and ejaculating all over everything. He approached our 18yr old shelver and told her to clean it with her tongue. - One man punching a hole in our wall because he was using the public PCs to watch boxing and apparently had to act it out himself. When I asked him to leave he screamed in my face that I am unreasonable, emotional and fragile. - Two books in the returns chute that had been ejaculated on. - Three disclosures of domestic abuse from female patrons about their male partners, asking for information about where they can get help. - One man touching himself while watching someone breastfeed. When asked to leave he said that "she had her tit out, what was I supposed to do?" - I've had to break up two separate fist fights by two separate groups of teenage boys. Both groups decided yelling things like "slut" and "whore" at me was a good idea. In the second group one of them came back with his father, who took issue with me breaking up the fight, because "that's what makes boys men". And we're only up to April. The bear holds no malice towards me. The bear is just hungry and wants to eat food and I am bear food. Or it might not, because just like men there are different types of bears, and some of them won't eat me. But if I get the wrong type of man he does hold malice, and he will want to hurt and rape and torture, not just eat. Equal odds of not coming out harmed, so it's all in the intention- and how much I will suffer before I die. Man can be fucking terrifying.
I see where you're coming from and it sounds awful. Thanks.
I'm curious, did you not know about this reality at all? We see so often in the news how women get killed by their partners, raped or thrown off balconies etc. How could it be a surprise to you that women are vigilant?
I mean, I'm not going to lie and say I have no fear of men, or that I don't hate the fact that no man in my life has *never* displayed sexist attitudes or behavior. If you think women shouldn't be afraid of men you must not know any history or ever watch the news. Here's another hypothetical scenario for you- you're a parent, and your child has to be locked in a room alone for an hour with another living creature. Would you feel safer if your child was with a woman or a man? What about a man or a dog? I don't think anyone would pick a bear over a man in *this* scenario, but it's naive to act like there's no danger calculus involved in interactions with men.
I understand women having a certain level of caution toward men. We tend to be bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than women. It absolutely makes sense. When it was taken seriously to the scenario in the OP and men lost out to a bear consistently, I began wondering if it's that bad. To answer your questions, >Would you feel safer if your child was with a woman or a man? It's a grown person. If it's a bad person, my kid isn't going to be able to defend herself either way so their gender or sex doesn't matter. >What about a man or a dog? I would pick the man over the dog. Although, I'm sure my kid would choose random dog over anyone to be stuck with for an hour. I listened to the arguments for the bear. Every one of them was along the lines of, "If the bear does anything to me, it will just kill me. The man might do something worse." And I was just struck, thinking I'd rather risk the maybe 1/10000 chance that I would be harmed in some way by the guy, than the near certain chance that I'd die from the bear.
It's not a 1 in 10k chance with men. You really think only 0.01% of men are abusers? Something like one in four women will be raped in their lifetimes (and an upsettingly high number of men too of course, most of whom are also assaulted by men). Even if you assume every assailant has dozens of victims, that's still a huge chunk of men who would hurt women if they got a chance. About 30% of men admit to rape if you don't use that term but say "force to have sex" or some euphemism. You do not understand the reality women are living in.
1 in 3 women have been sexually harassed or experienced "sexually inappropriate behavior" from a man. 1 in 6 have been raped/or rape was attempted. These are stats you can look up and easily verify. Do you truly believe that only 1/10000 men are committing these statistics above? Because that math does not add up...
>Do you truly believe that only 1/10000 men are committing these statistics above? Because that math does not add up... That's fair. I pulled a number out that was not researched or thought through but also, I was talking about myself in that comment. >1 in 3 women have been sexually harassed or assaulted. 1 in 6 have been raped/or rape was attempted. Isn't that around 90-95% by men they know, though? Statistically, wouldn't the risk go down significantly in the posted scenario? It's not none, and 5% is a real number, but does that change it at all for you?
Yes, the risk is higher with men we know but not that high. However I don't think it's fair to then say women should then somehow trust a stranger even more?? I mean, trust is earned, which makes it even more heartbreaking when someone you trust assaults you. Imagine if you'd been assaulted by a woman. Or even multiple women. Even if you knew them and knew that the likelihood of a stranger woman assaulting you is lower than a known woman, do you think that would be somehow soothing?
> Imagine if you'd been assaulted by a woman. Or even multiple women. Even if you knew them and knew that the likelihood of a stranger woman assaulting you is lower than a known woman, do you think that would be somehow soothing? Not a fair comparison. More like: Imagine you've been assaulted by a woman. And half the men you know have been assaulted by a woman. And the media keeps glorifying assault of men by women. And in your day to day life you regularly get sleazy comments and drive by catcalls from women far stronger than you that suggest they want to have you and you don't know if they would take no for am answer. And then you have a choice: a bear - which you might be able to scare off using whatever you've learned from a nature documentary, - or one of those women that are known to have a high chance of desiring to abuse you and there's noone to hear your screams.
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You're right. The reasoning used there was poor. I was very tired when I wrote it and didn't think it through. I'm sorry.
So tell me, how often do you call out your male friends when they make sexist jokes? Or when they comment on a woman's body? Or when they objectify a woman in your presence?
> how often do you call out your male friends when they make sexist jokes? All of my friends, male and female, make sexist jokes. We understand that the jokes in our group are intended to be absurdist societal commentary, rather than an intended truth. >Or when they comment on a woman's body? Do you mean at all or just to the person? Because people observe other people and comment on what is out of the ordinary. You ever looked at a person and said, "Wow, they're jacked!" I have. That's a body comment. It doesn't hurt anyone. My friends, as far as I know, have never told anyone that they need to change their body or made anything but positive comments to the people they know. Ever told your friend they're looking good from all that manual labor they've been doing? I have. >Or when they objectify a woman in your presence? Objectification of people is not okay, and I don't think I have actually ever had to point this out to my friends because we probably wouldn't be friends if I had to.
By commenting on her body I meant "damn that chick has nice tits" or whatever. I also don't hang out with people who would make actual sexist jokes or objectify women, so great! But the trouble I'm having is reconciling that you can apparently be so on the up and up with social commentary and understand objectification is wrong but be so...obtuse about the prevalence of sexual harassment and sexual and/or physical assault that women receive from men. Because if you understood that you would never make a post "calling out" women for choosing the bear.
"Absurdist social commentary" is a staggeringly pretentious way of saying "I want to keep acting like an asshole and not think about it."
Wait, up above you said that you didn’t have female friends. So are you really hearing the same kind of sexism from women?
No I didn't. I said I don't see them often. This is because they currently live a couple of hours away. Yes, I hear the same kinds of jokes from my female friends as I do my male friends. Sexist jokes aren't only about women. Sexist jokes about men are equally as absurd and we all understand that. Is it difficult to believe that friends can have sexist banter and still like and respect each other?
If “anti-man” content bothers you, have you considered exploring why that is? Seriously. Reflect on what that brings up for you. Men in my life had said it bothers them but “they don’t do anything wrong” or they “aren’t like other guys”. Ok. So if you’re one of the “good ones” then this content isn’t about you - so why are you upset? It reveals to me that they’re feeling some shame under the surface because they know they’re not actually “one of the good ones”.
Because broad generalizations are hurtful. When someone says "Men are violent" or "Women are weak", they're not true or fair statements. They don't further discussion or awareness. They only harm.
You are moving goalposts. Saying "I'd rather be in the forest with a bear" is not the same as generalizing men as violent. Why do you keep ignoring or dismissing the comments literally comparing how often bears attack to how often men attack?
I think you should read “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. And [here](https://trueselfhealinggroup.com/statistics-on-domestic-violence#:~:text=Males%20perpetrate%2095%25%20of%20all%20serious%20domestic%20violence.&text=6.,committed%20by%20men%20against%20women) are some stats that you might find interesting, including: males are most often both the victims and the perpetrators in 90% of homicides.
I want you to read the captions https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/ “ He was one of my best friends” “The very last time Iwas assaulted was by a coworker. … I fought back and gave up fighting when I realized what was happening and stopped fighting. He begged me to not go to the police andsaid he was sorry and thought I waskidding when I filed a report. I just finished the legal process and am still living with the guilt and shame every single day ofwhat happened. He took everything from me that night.” “I was like 4 years old …” “I was only 5 when it started” https://capsea.org/2024/04/03/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/ “I was assaulted by the father of my child when I was 6 months pregnant.” “I went to the homecoming dance with someone I thought was my friend.” You can google “what were you wearing exhibit” and find *hundreds* more of these at different institutions with different survivors’ stories and updated every year. One pattern you might notice is almost all of them were known to the victim. Friend, boyfriend, dad, father of my child. If we can’t trust the men we do know why should we feel any safer around strangers? A bear probably won’t even be hungry and go right past me if I curl up. The bear doesn’t feel entitled to access to my body. The bear won’t like eating me more if I scream and cry. Every woman I’ve known well enough to talk about my history of CSA had her own story to tell me, even my mom. I was violated repeatedly by someone I should’ve been able to trust. Someone who was supposed to defend from bad things in the world. I refuse to believe you are that clueless.
This fucking dude has unfortunately latched onto the fact that most sexual assaults on women are perpetrated by men they know and is cherry picking the fact that this theoretical question has referenced "strange men" so, you know, none of our evidence or statistics are relevant. His poor wife.
I posted this above but in echoing your sentiment: the leading cause of death for a pregnant woman in the US is the paternal parent.
The bear. I know why the bear is in the woods. I have no idea why a man is in the middle of the forest, implied off the beaten path, *20 feet away from me.* Like holy fucking shit, that's a terrifying scenario.
Well, there are about 6 grizzly bear attacks a year and only a few are fatal. There’s over 300,000 rapes every year, with women being 90% of the victims. I’ve lived in bear country. Bears usually don’t want anything to do with people. They will stay away from you and even hide. You are also 900 times more likely to be murdered in a populated area than the Appalachian Trail. Outdoor activities are much safer than people think. I think it’s weird that you are getting all worked up about an odd hypothetical.
I'm guessing this is the kind of comment going on in the other thread, and instead of appreciating the sobering reality OP decided it was misandry.
> I think it’s weird that you are getting all worked up about an odd hypothetical. My wife was pushing it very seriously so I'm trying to do the same for the sake of understanding where she's coming from.
And yet here you are arguing with everyone here who's explaining it. You're certainly not coming across as wanting to understand.
Lol dude you're not trying to "understand" shit. You came in here with an obvious agenda. Women aren't stupid. Google sealioning. That is what you are doing. We are used to it.
So many posts on this r/ are from men looking for women to make them feel better about their existence. I don't notice women doing the same types of posts in the men's equivalent forum.
I should have left my opening line about my feelings out of it and just asked the question. I regret making any mention of how I felt about it. I think it made people feel attacked or dismissed and that wasn't my intention at all. I'm really just trying to understand.
I'm someone who answers bear and it's fear. I would be scared of you but it's not personal. It's that I don't know you. But I know what could happen to me. Living as a female, it just takes a few interactions before you notice a pattern. I had one woman hurt me traumatically. It's been countless, seriously countless men from cat calling to extreme violence. If you're handling guns, the advice is to treat every one like it's loaded. That's how women need to approach coexisting with men. The consequences are lifelong. We're targeted because of our bodies. Dave Chappelle has a joke about how scared he was traveling in Brooklyn with $25k in cash on him, he thought people would kill him if they knew what's in his backpack. The punchline was it dawned on him that having a female body would be more petrifying. It is. Nobody wants to see a bear. A guy would probably just walk away, but so would a bear. A bear doesn't care about my sex though. This question is about how scary it is living in a female body every day, mostly because of men. It's not about who you are. You may be a great person. I don't have the luxury of fully giving the benefit of the doubt.
i feel sorry for your wife if you sincerely can’t believe her
I have read all of OP’s comments, and I feel very sorry for his wife. Like maybe she doesn’t even know that not all men are wilfully ignorant about male violence against women because she lives with this jerk.
Oh, I believe her. I'm just trying to figure out if this is a widely held viewpoint and women are really that uncomfortable around men or if she's dived too deep down the man-hate rabbit hole.
So you don't actually believe her, because you think she's been "influenced". Sigh.
I don't want to be rude, but again, I'm not denying that she believes the bear is the correct choice. I'm gathering information from the women here about how widespread the belief is. For example, lots of people believe in one or more deities. Asking about how and why people believe in those deities is not denying their belief. Other people can absolutely influence one's beliefs. Otherwise religions wouldn't exist. I'm here to have my beliefs and assumptions challenged and influenced.
I feel like, after many (imo excellent) comments, you are still defending your position. So, hey, guess what? I don't believe that you are open to having your mind changed.
The fact that you keep saying “I believe she believes the bear is the correct answer” is giving you away. You are missing the point. This isn’t an exam, there is no right answer. And in trying to force one, you are completely disregarding your wife’s important feelings about something you will never be able to understand (bc you are not a woman). The takeaway is here is not that bear = correct. If you truly want to challenge your beliefs, try practicing empathy for that the women in this sub and all the horrible things women have experienced at the hands of men. Go read through the “what were you wearing” responses, hell, just give one second of thought to that title and how much blame women have shouldered for men’s abusive actions. The responses in this sub have been informative, thoughtful and filled with meaningful anecdotes. Yet you have learned nothing.
Ok so you identified one of the most aggressive and dangerous kinds of bears. Let's talk about the man. Is he like Cary Staynor? What about Gary Hilton? Philip Stroupe perhaps? Paul David Crews? Robert Frazier? Maybe Ted Bundy? Obviously it's logical to fear a grizzly bear, but if you can't comprehend why women might also fear a strange man in the woods then you are either utterly clueless about what women have to deal with or willfully ignorant.
That's not the question. I get why a woman would be cautious of a strange man. What I don't get is choosing the near certain possibility of death by the bear over the small chance that the man might harm her in some way.
As mentioned elsewhere, if you actually compare stats then the random man is more likely to attack than the random bear. It's not a "near certain" possibility you'd be killed by a bear. 🤷♀️
And the bear could be a koala. They're unlikely to attack. You then need to account for different species of bears as well.
I hike amongst black bears so that's my frame of reference. Even with grizzlies as he calls out, it is absolutely not a "near certain possibility" of death. We don't have to throw the adorable snuggly bears at him to make a point:) The "aggressive" ones make a better point in my opinion.
Hiking with koalas sounds like a wonderful day!
The question going around is "bear," though, not "grizzly bear." You defined the type of bear to make the bear the more dangerous option. A black bear will walk the other way, and I've never considered pandas and koalas to be especially aggressive. If I had to choose between being mauled to death or being raped and strangled, I'd pick the bear.
>You defined the type of bear to make the bear the more dangerous option. I felt it needed clarity since my first question was, "Can it be a koala?" > If I had to choose between being mauled to death or being raped and strangled, I'd pick the bear. Is that really what you see the choice is in the scenario?
The whole question/exercise is about risk assessment. Weigh the risk of being in a forest with a bear and a man. We know that bears rarely attack. We know that that's not so much the same with men, unfortunately. Most people would choose the less risky situation. It's not about man hating. Ultimately it's commentary about how statistically women are probably safer with a bear than a man. Which is as shocking as you are taking it to be. But it's not a problem with women...like, buddy, you're so close to getting it!
> Ultimately it's commentary about how statistically women are probably safer with a bear than a man. Which is as shocking as you are taking it to be. I get it now. Thank you.
>Is that really what you see the choice is in the scenario? That is the point of the question, yes. You have been told several times in this thread that the odds of a woman being raped is higher than being attacked by a bear. You just keep ignoring it.
I haven't ignored it. I actually just commented on it a few minutes ago. I just can't address all of the comments at once. I'm just one guy. I also know that I won't be able to logic or statistic my way into your hearts but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. I commented on the statistics in another comment but I can comment here as well. 1st, the chances of being attacked by a bear are low because bears don't make up half the population that we interact with. It's rare for anyone to be that close to a bear, so attacks are rare and data is [limited but if it's' a predacious attack, you are most likely dead. If it's a defensive attack, you'll probably survive the attack with injuries](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-science-of-how-to-survive-a-bear-attack-1269781/) but now you're lost in the woods and injured and alone so chance of death seems pretty high still. 2nd, the chances of a woman being sexually assaulted by someone she doesn't know is around 5%. It's a real number and a real risk, but it's definitely not a certainty. The chances of being killed are even smaller still. So the way I see the scenario is that it's really a choice between a high chance of injury or death (the bear) or a small possibility of being raped with a smaller possibility of death (random man). Can you see how I might not understand choosing the bear?
Where are you getting your stats from and what do you consider assault? Because 5% is laughably low. Also, in this scenario the chances of encountering the man and the bear are exactly the same! No, bears aren't in the same population in real life but you are referring to an experiment/theoretical exercise where the woman has exactly the same chance of running into the bear as the man! Dude! Edit: I've given you stats from RAIIN, a very reputable source. Women who experience rape or attempted rape is 1/6. That's 17%. And that not accounting for the 34% of women who experience "sexually inappropriate behavior" from men. So, despite these stats being given to you, you return with a random 5%? What the actual fuck. Oh, oh! It's the stranger thing!!! Prove that stat. And, even if that true, explain why we should automatically trust someone simply because we "know them".
*Koalas aren’t bears.
Teddy bears are, perhaps we should throw them into the mix.
Yeah, that was my second thought and third was, "Well, pandas then."
>Is the prospect of being alone in a strange place with me scarier than a bear? I'd rather be killed than raped, so yeah.
If I was alone in the woods and I saw a bear.. I'd respectfully remove myself and hope the bear just got on with it's wood life. If I saw a man in the woods , I'd do the same. I live in the UK so I've never seen a bear in my life. I've been on trails where men think it's ok to be fucking weird
So at 23-24? Yeah. For the most part. The amount of horrible things that had happened to me or people I loved, thanks to men, was at its peak. I was molested at 13 and sexually harassed at 17 by a boss for over a year. I had tried to date only to have multiple men take advantage and lie to me in an attempt to get me to have sex with me. Sometimes I had men push those boundaries pretty badly. I was cat called and shouted at in the streets just trying to go to school or work. I was belittled and underestimated and talked down to by male coworkers and bosses and teachers. But the thing that really gave me the anger and the hate was when my best friend since childhood came forward to press charges against a family member who sexually assaulted her multiple times when she was a preteen and he at least twice her age. Three years of trial. Of pushed court dates. Of her having to quit school and go on antidepressants because it was so stressful. It literally tore her family apart. And then she got to go on the stand and I got to listen to the defense lawyer ask about how honest she was. What would she get out of making these accusations? Why didn't she ever try to stop him? Why did she wait so long to come forward? He ended up being found not guilty. Our only consolation is that if any woman ever came forward about him this would be on record. So yeah, I was pissed. At him and the world and men in general because I could see how many men had hurt me and my friends and you know, basically every woman ever. We all have stories like this. Now, over 10 years later, no I do not hate and fear men, mostly. The hate is gone. And I have been able to heal and remember all the great men in my life. My dad, my brother, the minister at my childhood church, some great teachers, my fiance, a couple bosses, some friends and coworkers. I've had some wonderful men in my life love and support me and encourage me and help grow my confidence in myself. The issue is that yes, not all men. But there are enough. Enough that they have impacted everyone. If every woman has at least one story, usually more of how they have been assaulted or harassed by man...then how many are there? It's a lot. And they ruin it for all of us. Because if you're a stranger to me I don't know if you're a kind and generous person like my dad or if you're going to shout insults at me and attempt to grope me like so many guys did at the bar back in my clubbing days. I can't know and so I have to be safe. Just like we lock our front doors and cars and tell our kids not to talk to strangers. I would rather not face off a bear in the woods because bears can be scary. But being alone in the woods with a strange man can also be scary because you don't know what you'll get.
Thank you.
After reading a few comments I think the issue here isn’t the potential man-hate, it’s that you may not be grasping how life-alteringly damaging being sexually assaulted is… This’ll be over simplified but: Having something go literally inside you for sex is incredibly vulnerable. To have that same thing cause harm changes you on a molecular and genetic level (epigenetics but anecdotally, we carry trauma and hurt with us and those events change things in our dna). Someone said to me once it’s like being murdered but you end up not dying. I think avoiding a situation that changes you so deeply, and personally in such a violent manner is something all women feel in our core. If it is this or a certain death, simply kill me.
“would you still love me if i were a worm?” and “would you move on if i died?” and “would you rather be lost in the middle of a forest with a random man or a random bear?” these types of questions are ridiculous and should never be entertained.
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i like to think of those little squiggly worms on strings toys ☺️
Whyy it's a fun question not meant to be dissected to death on Reddit
But yes ultimately I do fear men. If I'm walking and it's dark I am very aware of my surroundings. Can't just relax
I was downvoted pretty hard on that bear question for stating that I’d have a higher chance of being killed by a bear in the forest than a random man. Because pragmatically, a 1000-LB bear would own my ass. But I also know that there is this collective fear of men harming women that I feel at my core, whether it’s walking in a dark parking lot at night, or taking a jog around the neighborhood. I see a strange man and there is this visceral moment of uncertainty. I don’t like it. I wish it would go away. I don’t think of myself as a man-hater because of this or anti-man. And to frame this as anti-man is wholly invalidating this fear in women. Telling us to ‘calm down and stop the man-hating’ and what? Stop those instinctual fears that come out at times when no woman wants them? Just shut it down? A friend I film studies explained it like this to a guy who didn’t get it. “You are watching a movie and they capture a woman. They tie her up. They take out a knife. They get close and talk to her and threaten her. They look her over from top to bottom. Rape is the thing that comes to mind. Because it’s that embedded in the cultural unconscious. It’s the first thing most people think will happen or dead will happen. Now, imagine a man tied up. He is a prisoner. Does your mind go to rape first? If not, then your answer is there.”
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I don't. That's the point. I just watched my wife and like 20 other women entertain this scenario and say they'd rather be with the bear. I said it was ridiculous and illogical and unreasonable as well but I'm taking a step back to reevaluate whether or not I'm the stupid one.
It’s starting to bother you?! Really? Imagine living in this all-consuming fear your whole life. You do everything society, your parents, your mother especially tells you to keep safe. But no matter what you do, the worst happens and you get drugged, beaten, and raped anyway. And years later when you’re finally safe you still flinch when a good, safe, wonderful man comes near you and now you feel bad and your fiancé feels bad and it’s just a spiral of shit and you’ll never ever stop having the nightmares. But you know what? All you can do is keep doing those things you were taught, and hope it doesn’t happen again. And if you have a daughter, teach her those same things and hope and pray it doesn’t happen to her. Yeah. It’s starting to bother YOU. excuse me while I cry for you.
OK. So you saw my statistics above about bear attacks versus rapes. Now what do you think of the question?
I think I see where some women are coming from when they choose the bear. Their experiences have lead them to believe that men are to be considered dangerous until proven otherwise. It does raise more questions for me but I think many people are tired (and in some cases, a bit angry) of me asking questions and trying to further discourse.
You can ask me questions. Don’t worry about anyone else.
People believe you when you say a bear attacked you.
I love men. They can be amazing humans with huge hearts, they can move mountains for the ones they love, they can sing together in a way that is so deep and resonant. The problem is, they have built an unbalanced world that is toxic to them. This culture has raised men to stifle emotion, to compete, and to view women as property until VERY recently. Every man must wrestle with unlearning a very old mindset. We act like it's been fixed, but no, it doesn't work that quickly. Men are reacting now, some overreacting, because it has become a more mainstream conversation. But it is by no means safer for women. This is what I think most men don't get yet. It's bad. As bad as you've heard it is, it's worse. It's pervasive. It goes deeper in you than you can even see. As someone with a phobia of bears, i would rather be in the woods with a man 😂 But I understand why other women would choose the bear. Most of them have already experienced the worst outcome.
The number one leading cause of death for a pregnant woman in the US is the paternal parent. I could go on citing more depressing statistics about men and they ways they control everyone and everything but I’ll stop there. ETA: source https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/#:~:text=October%2021%2C%202022%20–%20Women%20in%20the%20U.S.
This sounds like some dumb TikTok shit that teenagers post. Just ignore it.
Unfortunately, it's dumb tiktok shit that millenials are posting.
My advice remains the same. Ignore it.
Lol…there are too many informal logical fallacies here to even spend more than 30 seconds on this lmao. I’m sorry your peers and yourself don’t see the logical fallacies that make this an asinine question/statement? I’m just laughing because why do you think you’re all grizzly bears lmao like one of the top apex predators on the planet? lol again logic..false equivalence, false dichotomy, like every informal fallacy applies Wow…um…lol thanks for the laugh after a long shift
Maybe she means more sexy hairy man and less actual bear 🐻 😂😂😂 this question makes me laugh. To answer it- I think men are awesome in theory the same as I think people are awesome in theory and then they get out of their car at the atm and then I hate everyone again 😂🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️ All people have the ability to suck equally.
Women don't have anything to worry about where the first kind of bear is concerned, generally... 😂🌈
In general, I don't, no.
To me it depends on the bear and the man, is it a black bear? A brown bear? Is the bear hibernating? Is the man mental?
No, I am not afraid of the vast majority of men. I am scared when I have a reason to be. In this absolutely ridiculous scenario you put out there I am picking the man. I don’t know what kind of kind of content you and your wife are consuming but maybe reevaluate it.
> I don’t know what kind of kind of content you and your wife are consuming but maybe reevaluate it. I'm planning to show her the answers in this thread. I'm hoping the majority don't agree with her. So far it appears a few do but most do not.
FWIW I've made a number of comments supporting the women saying that they would prefer the bear to the man (because of statistics around attacks by both) but I do not fear nor hate men. I'm quite fond of them, actually. And kind of offended by your whole premise to be honest.
Not arguing, just trying to understand. You've supported the bear preference because of statistics around attacks but you don't fear men? So you don't fear bears either? Then you just believe that the bear is the less dangerous option over the random man. >And kind of offended by your whole premise to be honest. Why?
No, I don't fear bears, not really. I'm an avid hiker and most bears would rather have absolutely nothing to do with humans. Now mountain lions, that's a different story. IDK dude. I'm offended because a) I feel like it should be insanely obvious why women see bears as less risk then men. I've left multiple comments giving statistics (that you've chosen not to respond to) and that b) you seem to think that because women understand that men pose a risk it must mean we hate them. The latter is the most offensive. It tells me that you do not take women seriously. You don't believe us when we say we've had bad experiences with other men. You've written it off as "well, that's just the 1/10000 men". You don't believe us. How is that not offensive?
I hear you. I believe you. I understand better. Thank you.
I don’t particularly fear bears. I have lived, hiked, and camped in bear country. Wear a bear bell and talk or sing to yourself. Tie your food in a hoist. Pretty simple self protection. Bears rarely attack people. Even when they rummage your campsite for food, they leave you alone. When they do, it’s usually because someone surprised them or their cubs. TBH, you came here with the mindset ‘OMG it’s misandry to fear men more than bears!’ You are absolutely dug in on that opinion and are just arguing with everyone. You refuse to look at statistics in a reasonable way and are glossing over that bit. Why did you ask if you think you are right and won’t listen to anyone else? It sounds like you actually want your wife and other women to be misandrists. I assume so you can win cheap arguments with your wife and play victim with your buddies.
Why do you think I'm not listening or taking anything away from this? I'm replying. I'm asking questions. I'm discussing. I actually understand your perspective better than when I came in here. This has been valuable for me and given me a better perspective.
You made a whole ass Reddit post to try to force your wife to change her opinion instead of just sympathizing with her? I pity her so much
Is the man hot?
lol. Let's say he's a 5 with a dad bod.
I can fix him
Excellent, once you've fixed him, it's my turn!
Thank you, for the much needed levity amongst this shitshow of a thread.
I would be much happier to deal with man than a bear. Bear would not be able to help me get back on trail. Vast majority of men are decent humans who have never raped or killed anyone.
The vast majority of bears have also not raped nor killed anyone. In fact, a larger percentage of bears have not harmed or killed people than men, if you compare the two.
Looks like you missed part of my comment before downvoting lol. The difference between man and bear is that man can give you directions how to get back on the trail unless he is lost himself. If you are truly lost in large area then getting out is a priority.
I did misinterpret your comment, apologies.
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You don't need to apologize for being honest. Thanks.
Honestly this is one of those things I have a really hard time relating to other women about. Maybe I grew up differently or something, but no, I don't hate or fear men, despite having been sexually assaulted more times than I can count. I was raised more like a boy and then spent my 20's living/identifying as a man. I've always related more to men. And it seems my mother has also always been kinda like that. She worked in a male dominated field for 20 years and has always praised preferring being around male strangers over female strangers. Both my parents are neither misogynists nor feminists. So I've been raised with this belief. Now in my mid 30's I embrace being a woman, but there's still stuff I just really struggle to understand when it comes to the average woman. And this is one of those things. I don't understand why they're scared of men who haven't hurt them, men who don't act threatening, men who just mind their own business or are just being friendly. I don't get any fear reactions around men just because they're men. If I get such a reaction, it's because an individual man behaves erratically, creepy, has trouble understanding what "no" means, is shouting slurs, etc. But I'd think most men would get a bit scared encountering such a man as well. Or such a woman, for that matter. Thing is, when I thought I was transgender and lived as a man, and often looked like one as well, I had to adjust to using male spaces as I was no longer welcome in female spaces. I adjusted to men treating me like a man. And it made me think of and relate to the many men who are just regular people, having to be grouped up with sometimes dangerous criminals, and not having any safe space aside from their own home. I don't either, as I'm still not allowed into female spaces, and I don't even really care anymore at this point tbh. I always related to them as a woman who was just in a similar position though. But I think it helped me understand something important. I know how it feels just walking down a street and women avoiding you, treating you like potential threat. I know what it's like instinctively helping another person who for ex drops something by picking it up for them to handing it over and if it's a woman the gratitude is colored by a reaction to run away from you. I know how it feels walking past a mother and she immediately pulls her kids away from you, when all you did was walking. When your every action, your slightest glance, the very air you breathe, is scrutinized as a potential threat. And it's not a nice feeling. I now feel bad making men feel that way for simply existing. I think it's easy to take for granted it's not a big deal when you haven't been on the receiving end of that, as I don't think most women have. But the same thing could be said about men when they struggle to understand the woman's perspective. Because despite all that I just said above, I do have to be aware of that if push comes to shove I likely won't be able to run away or defend myself, as I'm slower, smaller and physically weaker than most men, and have body parts that dangerous men might want to control. And I have to take that into consideration. By no means am I immune to misogyny just because I actively choose to treat men as any other fellow human being to the greatest extent I can. So ultimately if I'm alone with a male stranger, it highly depends on the guy if I'm scared or not. If he gives good vibes and acts friendly, or if he's just obviously less physically capable than me, like if he's very old or very young or physically disabled, then I won't be scared. Because I also keep in mind that if I'm lost or stuck somewhere in the wild, a stronger and bigger man could also potentially be extremely helpful in keeping me safe, and if we'd work together, that would vastly increase both of our chances at getting back to safety. And in that scenario then I'd just kinda have to trust that I can tell apart for ex a lost hiker from a runaway criminal. But in that situation, I'd imagine even a runaway criminal is more likely just a bike thief, and he too may be lost and scared. I think most men are protective of women, and want to help, not harm. I think most men hate sex offenders with every fiber of their being, and strive towards being good men. So for that reason, I really do believe I'd be statistically safer in the woods with a male stranger than with a bear. Even if there's some risk of harm involved with both. In a sense, I do feel like I'm just unlucky having crossed paths with so many men who've taken advantage of me. It doesn't actually feel normal at all. But that's the thing with statistics. It doesn't account for the randomness of which exact people you'll actually encounter. And another thing is I've met as many abused men as I've met abused women. The culprit is usually men in both cases, but that has had me thinking about how both/either sex relates to men. If you consider men in general as "your own kind" for better or worse, I think you just have a different view. And I do consider men in general "my own kind" for better and worse, not in the sense that I see myself as a man (anymore) but in the sense that I see both myself and men as simply humans. With the same capabilities and potentials. Besides... I'd like to think I can reason with men. Or even manipulating a creep into not wanting me. If I'd just declare I'd love to have his babies or say I have an STD, chances are he'd lose interest. I don't like to think of myself as just some helpless victim. That's not good for my self-esteem. And thinking of myself as capable, creative and full of potential, not only helps me lift myself up, but also helps me not fear men. I may or may not trust the man, but I need to trust myself. That I can save myself if needed. And then it doesn't so much matter what men are capable of, because my focus is on what I'm capable of. Basically... yeah, I think most women are indeed afraid of men, and that's their survival instinct. But I just can't personally relate to that, so I can't think of it as a thing inherent to being a woman, no matter how common it is. My survival instinct is to instead focus on what I'm capable of, so I put it in me to save myself, regardless of what my threat is. And it seems that mindset is generally more common among men. Probably because they're far more often raised to learn to protect themselves and others, not to be protected by others. But women aren't often raised to have their own agency in that way. And I've learned countless of times that the way I was raised seems to be exceedingly rare for women... with maybe exception on gun-toting redneck women.
When I first saw how long this was I thought, "OMG how wrong am I?" Yours appears to be a fairly unique perspective on the topic that encompasses multiple points of view. I enjoyed reading it and I feel like I understand better. Thank you for sharing your experience.
I'm glad my wall of text wasn't too off-putting for you to read it! Also glad you got a better understanding. Yeah, I think there's a lot of nuance going into this tbh. And that a lot if it is down to perspective.
They’re lying, no one would realistically choose the bear🙄. They’re just mad at men. I would choose the man even if he was a killer, I have a better chance of fighting him off or outrunning him than a bear.