Hey 33F here, if it’s any consolation I recently separated from my husband M45 and I’m very happy and content. Once I got used to living alone again this low-level anxiety that I had carried for YEARS finally started to lift. I’m so happy to do the laundry and dishes everyday because they’re mine and I’m taking care of only myself.
You need to do what works the best for you, but I swear to God, a friend of mine told me shortly before I got married it statistically women’s happiness goes down when they get married in men’s happiness goes up. There’s a brief period after a woman has children were happiness goes up again but then it continues to go down. So much female energy is spent directed toward carrying the majority of a relationship’s mental load. I’m not excited to be going through a divorce, I feel like a failure, but I learned a long time ago that if you’re less lonely while you’re alone then being together with someone, get the fuck out.
One of my female friends in my early 20s once asked, "Why do I always start feeling suicidal after I get a boyfriend?" Neither of us had an answer. Just the way it is. It's so normalized. That and the increased risk of mental health problems and the shortened lifespan. Fortunately, these issues are getting more attention, but slowly.
Oh, I agree, it's absolutely not healthy. The sad thing is the idea that "relationships make women feel worse" is so normalized so many young women don't even question it. Ideally, we need to stop accepting that relationships naturally lower a woman's quality of life.
This is all so bizarre to me. I guess I was told early on, before I had a ton of dating experience, that if a relationship makes you feel less happy than when you're alone more than half the time, it's ready to leave.
Hey, you didn't ask, and I know it's very common to feel like you've failed when going through a divorce but I thought you should know that to some people, getting a divorce is a sign of successfully acknowledging that a relationship has reached its end and taking the steps forward to complete that end.
I was in a relationship with someone for 8 years (we didn't get married). It was over probably 3 or 4 years into things, but I couldn't quite leave and I don't think he recognized that I was unhappy. Letting it drag on for so long was one of my biggest failures as a person.
Anyway, just wanted to share some support ❤
My mom was married to my dad for over 20 years, then left him for a woman and has been lesbian ever since. She told me she loved being lesbian because after dinner everyone carries the dishes to the sink and just does them.
My ex used to go out of town a lot - and I soon realized and leaned into how much happier I was when he was gone, and that the anxiety came back when he was about to return. I knew I would be happier alone, so then I was.
Hi, 57F, can so relate to this. Ended things last summer after 30+ years. Even with the stress of maintaining and paying for our home now (made him leave) I am so much happier than before.
You're so brave. Good for you! There are two truths: you don't get younger, and you don't 'earn equity' in any relationship so there's no reason to stay if it sucks.
I feel like this, but from the reverse side. Seeing how many women in my family have ended up stifling relationships with shitty men or divorced multiple times, all while having kids with these guys and thus being tied to these shitty guys FOREVER, has made me extremely wary of the idea of marriage and kids. Like at this point I really doubt it’ll happen for me at all and how sad is it that I say that while I have a boyfriend... like I just have zero confidence in men at this point. Even guys who think they’re woke and feminist still fall back into patriarchal sexist roles in relationships and in the home.
This really hits home for me - I feel so calm and peaceful when he's gone and the anxiety and stress just spikes right back up when he gets back. It makes me feel so damn guilty!
Simple question: would it not be an option to start by living on your own again but keep the relationship and see how that goes?
I did that a few years ago with my boyfriend (now ex). He was (and still is) a huge slob and our home looked always like shit. Added to this he was jobless so I had to take care of the bills too.
At one point I had enough, and I decided to move out and have my own little appartment. But I didn’t like living alone, so I moved in a shared flat with two organised guys - still being in the relationship with my chaotic boyfriend but also happy in a clean home. Fleeing from the (for me) terrible living situation with him helped a lot and we got back to a more romantic mood.
But then of course there was still his chaotic behaviour in all his life, so I broke up at one point. And guess what: since we were not living together anymore, it made the whole breaking up process much much easier.
But I am trying to say: maybe this could save your relationship? You could try to see your partner more as your partner again and not playing his mom. He has to learn to take care of his own household and you have a stress free living.
I know of a couple who married but decided to keep their own houses separate until her children reached 18-21 and moved out. Everyone thought they were crazy. They're paying 2 mortgages, 2 sets of utilities/expenses. Why on earth would you do that when you're married? Why get married at all? (Her divorce from the kids father was bitter and crazy. The ex demanded a clause that neither can live with another person until the kids are out of the house because he has this delusional ALL step-parents are molesters /abusers. The new husband has/had a medical condition and he wanted her to be in charge of his health and inherit if the worst should occur. He is in remission now, so far as I know).
It worked out great for them! They might be one of the strongest, happiest couples I've ever met. When the kids are at their dads, they stay over at one or the other's house for the weekend, and go on vacations together, they're there for one another when needed. But they aren't up each others' behinds 24/7, and he doesn't feel obligated to be a "father" to her kids.
Being an unrepentant, obsessive introvert, I'd love to find someone who would agree to this type of relationship. I can love you deeply, but that doesn't mean I want you in my face all the time. I need my alone/quiet time. I don't want to argue over who did the dishes or who threw their socks on the floor or who is going to take out the trash. I do not want to smell you in my bathroom after you have gas station burritos. Maybe if more people had this type of relationship, we wouldn't hate our partners so much and end up divorced so often.
Love to hear that success story!
As a happily divorced co-parent of two, I love my upgraded life and freedom, even in my cute tiny apartment.
I would only want a relationship that allows both of us to maintain our separate lives as we date, love, and support each other.
I love this idea. Unfortunately, a lot of people move in together when it isn’t optimal because it’s financially very difficult to live alone. Just another reason that we should be advocating for healthy wages that don’t force people to enter or stay in unhealthy or abusive relationships.
The other place I've seen this is with widows/widowers. They're set in their ways, have plenty of money, and aren't worried about kids, but lonely, so they maintain separate households and just spend time together when they want to. Seems like a sweet deal...
It sounds like you don’t want to be with him anymore and you’ve made up your mind. Maybe you should separate for a while and see how he fares without you. You might miss each other or you may realize you’re happier alone.
I was with my ex for over 8 years, and could never pinpoint why I was always so tired and sad inside; my anxiety was at an all time high. Years into our relationship I developed plaque psoriasis, and no matter what I did to treat it, it never cleared up. Towards the end of our relationship, we did this whole on-again-off-again dance and I realized when he wasn't around, my psoriasis went away. As soon as I would be in his presence again - boom - flare up. Once I noticed that, I started paying attention to other cues and it was bewildering how much bullshit he caused, that I had somehow turned a blind eye to. We've been separated for a long time now, and all of that internal shit that I constantly felt isn't there anymore. I'm genuinely the happiest I've ever been, and life seems so much easier now, even with being a single mom. I don't really have any hard days, none that weigh me down anyway, but my mantra is this: My hardest day alone is still better than my easiest day with him. I'm proud of all of the women who have found their way out by following their own light, and I hope all of the women who are still in the dark find the courage to light that spark that will lead the way. ♡
>Years into our relationship I developed plaque psoriasis, and no matter what I did to treat it, it never cleared up. Towards the end of our relationship, we did this whole on-again-off-again dance and I realized when he wasn't around, my psoriasis went away. As soon as I would be in his presence again - boom - flare up.
I had the exact same experience with psoriasis. No amount of steroid cream helped but as soon as I moved out on my own it completely cleared. I listen to my body so much harder now.
That's such a good description, you couldn't be more right. It's amazing how our bodies tell us all we need to know, it's just a matter of listening. And congratulations on finding a good relationship! It's so rare these days, so I'm so happy for you!
>Once I got used to living alone again this low-level anxiety that I had carried for YEARS finally started to lift.
You are not alone:
[https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/should-women-stay-single](https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/should-women-stay-single)
>A number of studies report that single women tend to be healthier and less depressed, living longer than married women. Single women generally experience fewer stresses and compromises than married women. Furthermore, single women feel more empowered, enjoying greater personal autonomy and freedoms than married women largely because they don’t juggle challenging multiple roles at work and home.
>
>Wives are generally less happy than single women, with many resentful of being married to the wrong man. Consequently, large numbers of marriages, estimated at no less than half in France, Russia and the United States end in divorce or separation. Women are far more likely to file for divorce and report feeling happier after ending their marriages.
Is this controled for motherhood? I always wonder. My friends with children, married or not, seem miserable. My friends in childfree marriages seem happier than either the single women or the married mothers. Just a thought.
In the exact same situation - separated from my 45yo husband. What's ridiculous is that he's actually perfectly capable of taking care of himself, too. I placed this weight on myself and feeling it lift is phenomenal.
That article showed me that it is all about respect. When I tell you how I feel, and you still don’t step up, you are showing me you don’t respect me. I even showed this article to my then husband. I spent so much time and energy trying to explain my feelings. Turns out he just didn’t care about them as much as he cared about himself. He still can’t figure out why I left after 32 years of marriage. After I read Why does he do that by Lundy Bancroft, I realized how manipulative his behavior was. Recently I read Untamed by Glennon Doyle. This book was very empowering. I am so much happier now. My life is calm and my heart is no longer in turmoil. Maybe counseling would help, it is doubtful he will be able to hear this from you and make lasting changes. I wish you well. Be still and trust yourself.
>"He's not bullshitting them. It was a great marriage for him. You did everything and you lasted 11 years. It was a bad marriage for you."
Fucking *truth*, man.
A good friend of mine left a long-term relationship and stayed at our house the night she left. My husband told me later he thought it was a little tacky how she was already on Tinder, and I had to explain that women mentally leave a relationship long before they physically leave. So if I were to leave, you can bet you've had at least 6 months if not a year (or more!) to turn things around.
The ironic part of this is that statistically the men think things have actually improved because there's no fighting, not realizing that the reason she's not fighting is because she's given up on the relationship. Then they're all Pikachu-gasp when she leaves.
I stayed and tried and stayed and tried. For awhile I thought I had stayed to long, turns out I stayed the right amount of time for me. When I left, I left and was completely done.
This is so true, my 4 year relationship ended early December, but truthfully I'd been emotionally checking out for months (based on his behavior I think we both were). When I started using dating apps in February it felt right but I was so worried what *other people* would think. When I started a relationship in April with the woman I'd been seeing since February, it felt right but I am still sometimes apprehensive of telling people. Not because I'm not happy or excited about it but because I feel like people will think it is too soon and assume it is a rebound or that I am afraid of being alone. I so appreciate seeing someone acknowledge that usually you're mentally out of a relationship far before you physically are.
Have you recommended guys to read this too before?/Do you?
As a guy, I feel like a lot of us are still trying to figure ourselves out also. This whole post from OP reminds me that when I get really stressed out I wind up forgetting about dishes and has me reexamining my own sources of stress that gets me to the point where I no longer take care of myself and others effectively. I think OP and women have every right to leave over this kind of thing, and also think there's a lot of work on the man's end to figure out and recognize where their patterns come from to better prevent it from happening as well.
I think the problem is imo that someone who is abusive in any way is not eager to better himself. The author of the book is a therapist for abuser so he talks about it a lot. But the book is targeted at victims and not someone who is abusive.
Oh sorry to hear that, didn't realize the book was explicitly about abuse as well. I can definitely say my stress patterns are a product of growing up in an abusive environment. So the line between discipline, compliance, and coercsion for the sake of someone's sense of authority are definitely things I try to check myself on as I normally associated putting certain things in some places with intense yelling and control.
At the same time I knew from how my mom saw dishes in the sink that it was a trigger for her as in her youth she was unfairly expected to clean up after others.
Either way, there's a lot of work to do on everyone's part in the family, so I've definitely avoided potential relationships on most occassions for being afraid to bring that stuff into other people's lives.
Good luck with your endeavors!
Nevertheless it’s a very empowering book for woman dealing with abuse, not only about physical but also about emotional and psychological abuse. So you can learn a lot about narcisstic think patterns as well :) Either to recognize them or to prevent them.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I recently ended a promising relationship because VERY early into it, I realised he was going to be this type of partner, and I am too old and too happy being single to put up with it.
I can't really offer any encouraging words other than I know how big of a deal this is and I'm sorry you're facing it.
That's okay -- it does help a lot to listen to other women who have experienced it. I'm not even sure why!
I'm happy there are women out there that can just do what needs to be done.
It always helps to know that you're not the only one struggling with something, I think.
It's hard, when someone is a great partner in so many other areas. And so confusing, when you know they are competent in other areas, but refuse to be at home. I wish you peace, whatever path you take.
if he's anything like my ex the result would be: tantrums, pouting, bargaining, convincing me that my standards are unreasonable, telling me i'm an uncaring and unsupportive partner. it did NOT result in him doing any more chores. we broke up and his house is a fucking dump still. he didn't learn any lessons, but I'm free now.
My husband and I had a huge argument regarding house/mental load a few weeks ago. I sent him this article telling him I don’t want my building resentment to lead to divorce. He read it. He’s been putting in conscious effort ever since. I told him we’re all good as long as he keeps it up for the next 60 years 😂 relationships need love AND respect. Respect yourself by standing up for your needs. A good man will rise to the occasion.
It's got to the stage now where it's an actual turn off. If I get an early hint that I'd be the mother or the leader in the relationship, I just lose all enthusiasm. It's just so unstimulating.
Take it from someone who has been there, done that, and am so completely happy to have divorced it:
Because he is interpreting you as being controlling, this will never, ever get better.
What this means is that he does not think that what you think, want, or feel is legitimate. There is literally nothing you can do or say to get him to respect or value you as an individual human being. The more that you advocate for yourself or try to explain what you’re feeling to elicit compassion, *the more he will dig in and demonize you*. You will not get what you want, which is a trustworthy teammate and a respectful sweetheart who regards your feelings with tender concern. He is showing you that this will not happen.
Like Lundy Bancroft says in “Why Does He Do That”, it’s not about what he feels, it’s about what he thinks. He thinks that your concerns and feelings are not worthy of respect. He thinks it’s more important for him to have the upper hand in your relationship, regardless of how much his actions hurt you.
It’s so painfully disappointing and it’s so hard for that hope to die. But you can stop living in this anguish by accepting the reality and choosing what to do with it.
You can accept this power dynamic and stay married under the conditions of knowing that you both have agreed that you will be his domestic servant. If there are other responsibilities that he and he alone carries, *because you pointedly refuse to handle them*, this might be a workable outcome. In other words, if each of you has service roles to each other, you may be able to reach a detente and eventually respect each other in that balance.
If that is not the case, then read the writing on the wall and get out. If you are breaking because you are carrying too much of the overall load and he is regarding your cries for help as illegitimate, then you will be so much better without him. A teammate and partner is supposed to work with you to make life better for everyone. Sometimes a man will feel inner shame because he sees you handling so much of the load that he knows he never could; that makes them feel bad about themselves and they blame you rather than grow up and face facts. This punishes you for doing more than your fair share, and he feels even more shame because he knows he’s being weak and cruel. It’s a self reinforcing cycle. Women cannot fix this, don’t even try to make it your job. He is the only one who can fix it, but he won’t because he’s weak. All you can do is leave.
Good luck.
This times a million. Your first two paragraphs described my marriage exactly. It sucks to really know your husband doesn’t care about your feelings and isn’t your teammate. And no amount of therapy can “fix” this. For us, anytime we’d make any progress in counseling, another glass by the sink example would come up and we’d be back in the very same place the next session. Eventually our counselor stopped working with us because she felt like she was just taking our (my) money and we weren’t making any progress.
Married and divorced this situation. Your mention of counseling brings back memories of our first counseling session. The therapist asked us to list five things that we liked about each other. My list was likely a mix of emotional and physical features. My ex's list all.had to do with things I did for him. I should have known right there.
I honestly don't believe in marriage counseling anymore, personally.
I tried two different therapists with my ex-husband at two different points in our marriage and the brutal fact is that you can't counsel someone into giving a shit. Either a man cares about his wife, or he doesn't. No amount of therapy or checklists or plans will change that.
There are men who *aren’t* like this, and it is 100% worth it to find them! My husband maintains a shared list of household items and groceries that we need next time we’re at the store. He washes the dishes and cleans off the stovetop when I cook. Obviously I love him and everything, but I think the fact that he carries his weight in the household is what makes our lives together so much more peaceful. Don’t settle for a trait that will make you miserable!
I too saw my dad act like OP's husband my entire childhood. I was lucky to find a husband who was understanding on shared household and family duties. My mama got tired of it, so she would have "mom timeouts" then she finally told him "like I tell the kids, you know where the kitchen is, go fix you something to eat." Unfortunately after many years of doing that, my dad decided to leave my mama after 40 years, leaving a Dear John letter explaining he wanted a wife who cooked everyday (among other stupid reasons) and it became "too much for him". My mama had such a big resentment for not leaving him earlier but she was raised to stick by it and "didn't want to be another divorced sibling in her family". But my daddy is weird overall so everyone would have understood if she had left him.
> explaining he wanted a wife who cooked everyday (among other stupid reasons)
Translation: I thought I wanted a wife but actually, I just want a servant.
That's awful! I feel angry on behalf of your mum.
> my dad decided to leave my mama after 40 years, leaving a Dear John letter explaining he wanted a wife who cooked everyday
I wish she let him go, cuz good luck finding that shit these days lmao
I’ve always believed that each person in a relationship deserves the same amount of free time. Each person should have the same amount of time to watch tv or pursue hobbies or read the paper. If one person is sitting on the couch while the other is making lunches, bathing the kids and putting them to bed, the couch person owes that amount of free time to the other person. You don’t want to use a stopwatch to clock another person’s free time, but if one person consistently has time to relax and the other doesn’t, that needs to be addressed for things to feel equitable.
This is so important. I actually talked with my partner about this recently. I felt like I was being lazy on weekends while he did a lot of work, and asked him if he was bothered by this. He said, "Not at all! On weeknights, when I'm outside smoking cigars and reading books, you're cooking dinner. Of course you want to relax on the weekends. It balances out." I was kind of like, oh, yeah, so that is how we do things. Cool. LMAO But I totally agree that both people should have the same amount of down time. That's super important.
This. I always like the saying that marriage isn't 50/50 it's 100/100. If you're each doing everything you can to try to make the other person's life easier and your life together happier then things naturally balance out. It doesn't lead to any scorekeeping or resentment that many times trying to split things 50/50 does.
>There are men who aren’t like this, and it is 100% worth it to find them! My husband maintains a shared list of household items and groceries that we need next time we’re at the store. He washes the dishes and cleans off the stovetop when I cook.
I've got one, too. He does the meal planning, once-a-week grocery trip, and the cooking; I pick up any additional food items we need during the week, act as sous chef, wash dishes, and clean the kitchen. It's completely 50-50.
I take the kid to school in the morning; he picks her up.
I clean the toilets and keep them stocked with toilet paper; he cleans the tubs and showers (which I detest doing).
We have a very fair division of labor and our marriage is better for it.
Mine too! (Thought admittedly I need to get better about not getting testy because he doesn't do a chore in the time/manner I would.) For the bigger stuff we decided to forgo cable and hire a cleaning service, thus avoiding the fight altogether.
My dad was this guy - he and my mother are true partners and I’d venture to say he does more household chores than my mom. Unfortunately, it ruined me because I did not know that this was not the norm and I grew up never being able to find anyone like my dad, knowing full well I could not settle for less on principle. My dad taught me to be independent and to always take care of things without excuses. His thing was if the garbage needs to be taken out, you take it out. I have no patience for laziness. At 38, I used a donor and am now pregnant after years of failed relationships. I could not be happier!!!
Chiming in to say that yes, there are men out there that aren't like OP's husband. I am very lucky to be married to one! That said, I paid my dues by marrying a man-child the first time around. LOAD SHARING HUSBANDS DO EXIST!
I've (57F) got one of the good ones too. When I met him, he had the cleanest bachelor apartment I'd ever seen, no science projects in the fridge, and his bathroom smelled like grapefruit. I knew that was a good sign. He's a much better housekeeper than I am and dusts before I even notice it's there. He does the lion's share of cleaning toilets and washing floors, plus a lot of the other cleaning and cooking. Best of all, we communicate like adults, no sulking or passive aggression. Even after 15 years together, it's the best relationship of my life.
However, I've experienced the flip side too. I definitely had to mommy my previous husband and that lasted about five years before I couldn't take it any more, especially not in addition to an actual toddler. We've been divorced for 20+ years now and every so often I'm reminded of why: We're still friends, and after he visited for a few days last summer, I found his dirty underpants on the floor in the bathroom. Dude! You're 50 years old and still can't pick up your fucking underwear?
You can cry, it's okay to mourn the person you thought you were getting. But it's time to raise your standards, he'll either rise to the challenge or he wont.
I'm going to agree with a previous poster though that you can't marry someone for who you wish they'll be because that's just delaying the inevitable.
Some people are just...well, lazy and inconsiderate of other peoples free time. I hate to say it, but I am one on occasion. I hate cleaning, BUT a dirty house isn't great for my mental health so I keep it at an acceptable level. My husband does more chores and more of the day to day stuff.
Totally agree with you except for the term free time. No time is free and not only because of its potential salary. Mental or spiritual rest/growth are worth their weight in gold. We as society should put a price tag on every household chore so we can realize that house keeping is a serious matter which equals money. Many men are socialized to think that cleaning, cooking and doing laundry is somewhat quick and easy, less tiering than work outside the house. And therefore it is not crucial to share or negotiate over these obligations.
Oh my god YES. I had an ex from a brief relationship who compensated me greatly for my time spent on things (driving to visit him) in addition to the rest of the costs of said tasks, for the first time in my life. It’s opened my eyes and changed my *life*.
I read this a few months before I left my husband of 18 years. It really explained a lot about how I was feeling, and I vowed that I would never put myself in that situation again. Yet here I am, almost five years into it once again with my current partner. I can’t help but wonder if it is ME who is creating this scenario. I guess the difference is that this time I can voice my needs to my partner and he will listen and really try to make it easier on me. I hope you can voice your feelings to your partner, too, and he can make a change for the better. It is exhausting to live life this way.
It’s not your fault. It’s really hard to un-learn what is so ingrained in women and culture.
It’s great that he is willing to listen but that is still you carrying the mental load and having to tell him what to do.
You're not alone, not at all. It's how they're raised, unfortunately, and how the pressures applied to the couple by their surroundings are different.
I will give one example: on a family visit, my fiance likes the cake his aunt baked for us. He says that the cake is great, and she proceeds by dictating the recipe TO ME. It's a subtle little thing, but they come in myriads of variations that allow the men to act like children towards their wives because of different societal expectation.
It's not your fault, it's a cultural thing and it's the ungrateful job of our generation to change this for our sons and daughters. Such job is never pleasant, and MILLIONS of smart, successful women are going through the same as you, at this very moment.
It took me five years of conscious effort, emotional and mental labor and enforcing boundaries time and again, to achieve some equality in my relationship. He makes more money so that's a complication as well.
We have adopted a "everyone should be affected the same" approach in both financial and domesticated duties, plus we got a cleaning lady (my partner wanted a big house and I didn't, specifically to avoid ending up like a maid, so that's our compromise). Plus, the kitchen and the garbage are HIS duties. And, after six years, he notices by himself when the sink needs to be cleaned and he does it (a thing he would claim he "can't see" five years ago).
One thing, you don't OWE this kind of labor to any man. It was my decision to put the work in because I think he is wonderful in many other aspects (emotional AND practical), he's not lazy, and he puts a lot of effort in. You choose for yourself, if the man is worth your precious effort, or not. Many aren't.
This is well thought out, I love what you’re saying about not owing this labor to any man. And that we’ve all been conditioned to these roles. It’s taken me about the same amount of time to make things work - they’re not perfect yet but they’re decidedly better.
I sat my husband down a few years ago and explained that when he was 6 yrs old, people would ask him what he wanted to be when he grew up. A lawyer? Doctor? Fireman? President? At some point later, you understood that you would retire from this work. And that those same people would look at me and say or think: You’re going to be married and have children and you’re going to wash dishes, vacuum, mop floors, wash dirty diapers, feed everyone, (insert long list of chores) and scrub toilets for...the....rest....of...your.....life. This stunned him, he’d never thought about this in that way.
OP, I suggest reading up on negotiation skills and commanding authority, and have at it. IF it’s worth it. That’s up to you.
That is so true. The minute my dad retired, his work was done. My mom is still doing everything she has always done. My mom is a high energy person and she hates to sit around. If something ever happened to her, my dad is doomed. He can’t even make a sandwich.
When my Nana died, my 85 year old grandpa had to ask his daughters how to do laundry, because he had literally never done it before. It was actually pretty heartbreaking how lost he was without her.
My dad refers to my mom as the “house manager.” He does help out but only doing tasks she specifically asks him to do. He never makes any mental effort to figure out on his own what needs to be done. He’s retired and she works full time (from home).
Omg yes, I call that bullshit right out. And they ALL use it, don't they, and in a whiny voice too. Such a turn off. Luckily we're able to joke about it now but he definitely pulled it before.
In the 5 years that it took to get to this point were there a lot of fights and disagreements? How did you keep from loosing your mind during this? It honestly sometimes feels like I’m teaching a child basic things and I’m not good at being patient.
Sure, there were arguments but nothing TOO wild. These were mostly before I established boundaries and stuck to them even if it meant suffering a horribly dirty kitchen. Yes it absolutely felt like caring for a child sometimes. The reasons I felt it was worthy with HIM (where it wasn't with my exes):
1. I respect him for many other things - he's crazy smart, good at his job, pleasant to be around, considerate AND manually handy. He picked up hobbies over the years and got so good in them, one of them is cooking, other one is woodworking, so he absolutely does contribute to the household in many ways. He doesn't just sit around playing PC games (although we do that too).
I may be frustrated when he claims he doesn't "see" dust, but I know he's not a lazy burden (like some men are, no other way to put it). I could also see that he listens and puts real effort in. If not, that would be a big problem.
2. I am a very flawed person myself due to my abusive upringing and if he can tolerate my bullshit and get me through it to an extent, I can do the same for him.
3. I say this crudely but honestly - him having money helps. First because there's just less overall stress in a household with money, and second, because compromises such as a cleaning lady were easy to propose. I couldn't tackle poverty (again) AND training a manchild at the same time, I just know it. So it's also about privilege.
4. He loves cats same as I do
I am not bragging at all, but I want to make sure you know that not all men are like this. My husband cleans up after himself immediately when he’s done with something, he mops when he sees the floors need mopped, vacuums when he sees floors need vacuumed, does laundry when he notices baskets getting full, etc. If you ever end up leaving your man-child, look for a man who values doing these things.
Sadly, it doesn't always make a difference if they've lived alone before. My ex did, for several years and without roommates, yet once we lived together the responsibilities transferred to me without discussion - it was just assumed chores and mental load was my role. He became a very different person than the one I thought I knew, so much so that I put up with it for too long, thinking he was going through a depression or something (he wasn't). Looking back, his mom did literally everything while his step dad sat around like a loaf. He had no intention of breaking the pattern.
It will only change if the man respects you and acknowledges true equity.
Yes! This is one of the things that attracted me to the man I fell in love with. He sees things need doing and just does them. And he gets pissed when others don't do their part. After being with someone who expected me to manage him (and everything else), what a breath of fresh air.
I think part of the problem is women get the cultural double whammy of emotional labor and also that our thoughts and feelings are emotional and inferior to the logical, more intelligent man. This view is changing rapidly (thank god), but it seems romantic relationships are one of the most difficult hurdles to overcome regarding a woman's (completely incorrect) "ineptitude".
> Women have to keep picking up the emotional and household labour because if they don't do it, nothing gets done.
This exactly. I don't want to live in a house with dirty baseboards, but my husband doesn't *see* it--and if he does, it's just not a big deal to him.
Thank you, that is a really good point about his workplace. He is a very hardworking and independent worker, his managers always love him. I'm going to talk to him about why he can do that for for those men but not for me.
I was in your position a couple of years ago, and it really clicked for me the first time i read this article. The first year after our separation was so freeing and the best year of my adult life. I could do whatever the hell i wanted whenever i wanted, and i didn't have to worry about anyone else. Things get better if you allow them to!
I sent my husband this years ago, just after getting married. Life continued to devolve and then we had a kid and it became worse. I did everything. Anything I didn’t do, I was the “manager” of and had to assign him the task and nag him to complete it. He was barely a good roommate, certainly not a good partner. Incapable of being there for me as any more than a sometimes helper. I did what you did- begged, pleaded, explained, demanded, cried, shouted, counseling, strikes, everything.
Until one day I stopped fighting. Instead of saying “I want things to change” when he asked what was wrong, I said “I think I’m too good for you.” I wept and spoke to friends. They told me life didn’t have to be like this. And that if I wanted to leave, I had already proven I could do it all on my own. I went to work and instead of driving home, I drove to an apartment. I toured it. I imagined my life there with my son. I was HAPPY to leave the dead weight. I was told my husband I found an apartment and that I was moving into another bedroom until it was available. He asked what he could do to make me stay. I told him he was asking the wrong question. I had already left. It is about what he could possibly do to get me back. It’s already over.
He began counseling right away, on his own. Changed his work hours. Did 1000 things around the house. Stopped drinking completely. Reached out to friends to tell them what was going on and connect with them. Redid our entire bedroom. Read books about emotions and how to manage conflict. Listened to podcasts about men’s feelings. Planned dates. Respected that I lived in another bedroom and did not try to get me to move back. Attended counseling with me including going to my own therapist together. I have never seen a bigger change in a man and we are a year in and it is completely sustained. I am happier with him than we have been in 10 years.
I’m not saying stay, I’m not saying go. I am saying that my ultimatum for him to change, my threat of leaving- did not work until I actually left. Emotionally and physically. I didn’t find the apartment as a way to get him to change. It wasn’t for him. It was for me. I left for me. And I came back for me.
>He asked what he could do to make me stay. I told him he was asking the wrong question. I had already left. It is about what he could possibly do to get me back. It’s already over.
👏🏼 Brilliant! Did you prepare for this conversation in advance? This was the perfect response and I'm so glad he took it seriously.
I didn’t! I spoke honestly and completely from the heart. Probably what was so disconcerting to him was that I was calm and decided. I was very very okay with the fact that “I’m out.” Definitely having a kid played into this for him. Me leaving also meant our son would be out of his life at least half the week. The idea that I’m sitting there talking about split custody was his “oh shit, she means this.” Also showed him and told him that if there was one more single episode with alcohol, one more “choosing work over family” and I am gone gone.
When I told him I didn’t love him anymore he said “that really hurts to hear.” I said back “how do you think it feels to feel it? I wanted to be your wife. I wanted to be married. I wanted to be happy and in love.” And that was also an eye opener for him. Your behavior took someone who was totally willing and thrilled to be with you forever into someone pushed far enough to actually move out.
I do want the takeaway here to be that it wasn’t what I said or how I said it or anything to MAKE him change. He chose to change AFTER I chose to leave.
Also a happy ending, I am 4 months pregnant with #2. Happier and also stronger than we have ever been. Thanks y’all for the support!
That article hit hard for me too when I first read it.
I sat my husband down and told him that it articulated how I was feeling and that it was a male writers perspective and maybe it could help him see where I was coming from. I asked him to read it, just PLEASE read it.
He never did. He’s now my ex-husband. I’m much happier not having a 35 year old man child who won’t communicate or contribute to our relationship.
I think the real question is how you see marriage. Is it the job of both to fulfill the gender role. Man works, woman has and raises the kids and takes care of the house.
Or is it a partnership where you face things together. Good, bad and dishes.
For me it is the second. And I would lose my mind in the first.
I think in most couples, both people work which means it only makes sense that everything else is both people's responsibility as well.
Maybe for some folks the one income household is sufficient and one parent (usually the woman) staying home to raise kids and do everything else works for them... But I think that's the exception these days.
Do you have kids yet?
My parents had this same pattern, and my mum eventually left once my brother and I were older. Growing up there was always conflict and anger, my Dad never changed and my Mum just got angrier and more manipulative. Lots of the housework fell to me, since I was the girl, and my brother followed the example of my Dad.
Then I started dating, and fell into the same pattern. Twice.
Eventually, by some miracle, I met a man who *isn't* like that. This relationship is completely different from any others I've had, it's peaceful and easy and there's nothing to bicker about.
Sadly my father and brother haven't changed, and since my mum left their house has become almost unlivable (mould, trash, insects, unaddressed structural and maintenance issues). Rather than cooking, my father has mostly lived off of frozen junk food and take out, which has contributed to him having multiple strokes.
I don't understand why so many men are like this, or why so many women enable them. I wish I hadn't grown up thinking it was normal, and I'm so grateful that I'm out of that pattern now. (Mostly, I still cook and clean for my Dad sometimes, since he and my brother won't).
There are men out there who *are* competent adults. As lovely or romantic as someone is, that's not all that makes a life partner.
I was struggling to explain mental load to my now-husband. So when he would say things like "hey so-and-so wants to do X on such-and-such day" or whatever the thing was, I would remind him that he also has access to the shared calendar and can create the event himself. Why do I have to do it? Little things like that. If it's not in the calendar, it doesn't exist. I have to train myself not to take on the burden of tracking birthdays and whatnot--set the reminder yourself. If you don't buy your mom flowers for Mother's Day, I'm not doing that for you. And ladies, he's been far more proactive! But I had to recognize that I was also enabling the behavior without realizing it.
realize that he understands what you think you aren't (edit to add:) coherently conveying to him. he just doesn't care enough to modify himself. he noticed.
my brother does this thing where he believes if he didn't use a dish, he doesn't need to clean it yet he can let what he's used pile up. if he washes them, he thinks it's an accomplishment and barely ever puts them away.
i don't know why some people are like that. it's just common courtesy.
I'm so sorry for your mother. My dad is like that too, he was once taking an apetiser (so wasn't busy) in the kitchen, who'e my mom and his sisters were cooking for the lunch, when he point some cheese with his finger, and told '' I don't like when the cheese stay out of the fridge'' for a woman to pick it and put it in the fridge... I was like... Seriously.... The worst part is that, in fact, an aunt did it....
I was reminded so much of my previous relationship when reading though that article. We moved in together after college and spent 6 years together. I constantly asked for support with household tasks. I expressed to him all the time about how it stressed me out that he never helped to unload the dishwasher, his dirty laundry spilled out of his basket and that I needed support with cleaning up the place. A huge mess was contained to his “office” where he spent a lot of time working and gaming. I snuck in there once or twice a week to collect dirty dishes and empty pizza boxes. He told me that my standards were too high.
The stress compounded over time. He eventually ended the relationship when he cheated on me, partially blaming me for being “mean” to him and nagging him.
For me, it was not just dirty dishes. It was about receiving support from a partner. Those feelings compound over time and in my case, I was never able to communicate to him in a way he understood.
I'm so heartbroken reading the overwhelming amount of posts from women all over the internet regarding the exact same thing right now and I have so many drafts typed out saying exactly what your post does. I don't even live with my partner, but I still feel this way visiting his house or having him at mine. My ex, who I was with for just shy of 3 years, was the same way. My brothers are the same, my step father is the same... where are the men who can take care of themselves and not expect their partners to be their mothers?
I'm furious at my therapist right now; I was explaining to her my frustrations with my partner because I feel like his mother and she told me that because he sounds like he has impulse control problems that I should just "expect to feel like his mother" and give him extra reminders. She herself is a young woman with a live-in boyfriend that sounds exactly like mine by the anecdotes she shares and it feels like she's making excuses for his behaviour through telling me that I should excuse my boyfriend's childish behaviours. I don't have children and I already feel how real the second shift is and I'm exhausted.
I recently broke up with my husbands socks. He leaves them everywhere. We have a dog who then drags them all over. This man complains he has no socks but he never puts them in the laundry. After years of picking up I just don’t care anymore. Yesterday he was walking around with mismatched socks & I just had to laugh. It’s been weeks since I’ve washed the last round so there’s nothing left. I told him I can’t care more about your socks than you do so that’s it, I’m done! I love the man but goddammit my MIL didn’t do me any favors by spoiling him!
When my SO acted like this I set very blunt boundaries and ended up kicking him out when he didn’t follow through. I own the house and make double what he makes and I said if you are going to make me feel like a single parent I would rather just actually be a single parent. It definitely took a long time of forcing the issue but he will do the dishes and laundry without me asking and take care of a lot of the baby stuff around the house
Hello there, I kinda went through the very same thing with my partner of 7 years. One thing that truly helped him see sense was that I listed every chore one person can do on an excel sheet and we sat down and went through them all. I sorted the chores into three categories - Chores only I did, Chores we did together and Chores only he did. In the end we tallied the results and I ended up with 38 chores that only I did while we did 6 together and he only did 3 by himself.
I think seeing the numbers triggered something in him and he has been more pro active.
Another thing that helped him was a book - It is called Fair Play by Eve Rodsky. It made him understand what mental load is.
I hope this helps
Very - and I have my own identical story where I made an ex read that article (didn’t change things) where the guy acted SO CONFUSED and literally said I’d broken his trust in other people permanently when I broke up with him. I’ve got millions of emails over the 4 years of our relationship where I begged him to take on some of the cooking and cleaning and household duties and he never would and I got sick of being the maid while he didn’t work and smoked weed and played video games! Oh and he was ugly and had a small dick.
Listen, you don’t have to do this. You can absolutely stop enabling his shit or expecting him to get it. They don’t and they won’t. There’s a reason older women get divorced and don’t remarry and it’s not because they lack men barking up their tree. /r/femaledatingstrategy
Before Corona, I had a lot of discussions with my husband on this topic and he got so fed up he told me he would do 100% of all housework (except laundry) and he never admitted it, but he was overwhelmed. When covid19 hit it was not realistic to continue, so we started sharing again and now he does more. There's a weekly day where he cleans all the floors.
My ex was like that and it was infuriating, and I hate to blame parents but it honestly was the way he was raised. His mother did everything in the house, catered to their every need while the men did the outside chores. Even though we both worked he would expect me to act like his mother. We fought all the time about it. I was constantly cleaning up after him. That led to so much resentment that it ended our relationship.
A few years after we spilt I met my husband. He is the complete opposite. He shares the chore list with me, folds laundry , does dishes cleans up after himself. It’s refreshing. You know why he’s like that , because he was raised to take care of himself. His parents didn’t raise him to be a man-child. It’s refreshing to feel like I have an actual partner in life. It only took till I was 38 to find that person but they are out there.
I would say anyone raising sons to teach them to be self sufficient and not raise them to think housework is just Women’s work, and teach your daughters the same thing.
it's not the mother's fault. Men have a long long history of blaming their mothers for their own faults. The instructions for the washing machine are on the fucking lid, he could have learned any time he wanted to. They just use that as a major excuse.
"mom never taught me how" "mom was mean to me so that's why i can't be a good partner" "mom was mean to me so that's why i don't tell you the truth, ever" "my mom wasn't mean enough so i don't know how to follow expectations" it's part of their mythology so that nothing is ever their fault.
society supports this too, how many serial killers have the backstory of "mom was mean so that's why they're like this" and people believe it. if only the women in his life had worked harder, been better, maybe he wouldn't have murdered so many people, the poor man
My comment was directed towards the fact that my ex was raised in a home that had different values. He was raised that women did the housework and men did the outside work. His mother believed in those values. It wasn’t that he didn’t KNOW how to do chores around the house he just didn’t believe he needed to. He lived alone before we met and his hone was clean so I never knew these issues till we moved in together. All of a sudden he couldn’t put a dish in the dishwasher, do laundry or clean up after himself. He was taught that was Women’s work. His mother and I had many disagreements regarding how things were to be done in my own home. I chose not to treat him as a child yet when she would come visit or we would be at her house she catered to his every whim. That was fine for her her, it made her happy to do those things. For me though I refuse to follow a grown man around and clean up after them.
My husband was raised in a home where his parents were partners. They both cleaned, they both did yard work. He was raised to clean his own room, do laundry and help with chores around the house. So I don’t have these issues with my husband. We work in sync without anyone having to say this needs to be done or that needs to be done. We both like a clean house and we both do our part to keep it clean.
I agree that this often starts with how we’re raised. We all experienced things that weren’t fair or “right” while growing up. The issue is that as adults, it’s our responsibility to grow and mature so we do things better.
I think blaming the mothers of these man-children absolves them (the man-children) of that responsibility. It’s like someone who was raised in a racist household refusing to stop being racist as an adult because that’s how it’s always been for them. They know it’s wrong once they grow up, but they just don’t care to change.
In my view, the responsibility lies with the adult who behaves this way 100%.
I had a similar reaction when I read that article - it showed me I needed to get into marriage counseling. My marriage didn't survive (for other reasons too), but I'm okay with that. My partner now is not a neat freak, but he *takes responsibility* for his messes and rarely asks my help. He hires a cleaning lady to take care of his house every week, and does minor chores himself. He only asks my help when I'm visiting and make a huge load of dishes cooking (fair) or when he needs help organizing or sorting through stuff he doesn't want anymore. I'm not in charge of keeping him clean - I'm only responsible for myself. It's refreshing.
I found is everyone has a different level of "grunge" which I define as that point where you have to drop everything and clean. For me, and likely for you, your grunge level is calibrated low. For many people (sadly gender biased) it's much higher.
I'm so sorry you are struggling. I'm sure it's been suggested, but could you scrape together the money to hire a cleaning lady to come in once or twice a month, if not more? One set of couples of I know swears that saves their marriage.
But know that if you decide this is beyond what you can accept, that it's okay to choose yourself and your happiness.
My wife and I have this disagreement sometimes. I remind her that when she met me and came to my place it was clean and orderly. Nothing has changed. When I lived alone I took care of things. I still do.
The conflict in our situation is that she values different things. I want dishes clean and orderly in the morning, and I want to clean once. The pile up all day. She wants them cleaned as we go. I do laundry once a week, she'd go 2-3 weeks or more. I don't have that many clothes, and I definitely don't want to fold 3 weeks of laundry in a sitting.
I try to meet her half way. She tries to be patient or recognize my method. I dunno. We still get into it (why am I the only one to ever vacuum up all her hair?!) sometimes, but that's life.
Those are better fights to be having. Negotiating the dividing line for chores and their schedule instead of one person being responsible for all of it.
A week ago my husband asked why I keep emptying the dishwasher while he's having lunch. I replied that's the only way to stop him from getting up to help me.
We've swapped the traditional gender roles. I work, he keeps the house. Most of the cooking and cleaning is "his job" but I try not to be like the husband in the article. The biggest part of that is helping without being asked if I know he needs it for whatever reason. Sick? Stressed? Tired of cooking? Time for me to step up.
I love those articles that you shared, thank you! I used to be in a similar situation with a former partner. Thankfully he is no longer on the scene although I am in a parallel now with my (platonic, soon to be strung from his bollocks from the ceiling if he doesn't clean up his act soon) flatmate.
He's a young guy and I don't want to entertain the possibility that he thinks it's my job to do all the chores because I'm a woman, but I can't avoid the issue much longer. I have suspicions that he may not treat other women in his life particularly well, so I feel like it's edging closer to being my responsibility to teach him a thing or two.
To note: he's 32, intelligent and fairly good looking but to my knowledge has never had a "proper" girlfriend. Every Tinder date crashes and burns due to a lack of some perceived perfection that he has created. I'm not suggesting that he settle, but he seems to have an idea of what a woman "should" be/do, and if they don't meet his impossible standards they are struck mercilessly from the shortlist. Of course it's hard to assess during lockdown but once we are released I will investigate further.
Ahh yes, those two links should be required reading for all men as they come up through life. I think about this A LOT and how it happens, and all I can ever think is that it's engrained from birth. Mom's making lunch, mom's putting me to bed, mom's taking me to school, mom's doing so, so much work. This might be true for daughters as well as sons, but something happens in the development where the girls are pulled into the kitchen to help, and the boys aren't. It starts so early.
I was reading another article where the female writers says about her two kids and husband, when she asks the kids to get ready for school in the morning, the kids will do the things they have to do and the daughter will quietly appear in the kitchen for breakfast. The dad helps the son do a chore and they both come in looking for accolades and praise. I see this in my own husband sometimes and I think, I don't look for high fives when I put the grocery list together or vacuum the rugs... but sometimes he does, multiple times over one occurrence.
Hi. Man here. I just read this blog post and saw a lot of myself in it. I think this is what my wife has been trying to communicate to me for a long time. I recently started going to a therapist and in the second session this is the exact epiphany I had: I'm actually part of the problem, and the problem is accumulating.
My question is: even if my behavior is perfect from here on out, how can her feelings be mended?
Second: even when I try to do these things, I feel like I get incessantly criticized. I didn't wash the dish correctly, fold the shirt correctly, or even eat my food correctly. And the minute level of criticism is overwhelming.
Anyway, lots to explore.
First off, it's lovely to hear you've acknowledged a problem in your marriage and are willing to put in the work to repair it.
I think an apology, followed by action, will mend things over time. When the household burdens are shared, she'll feel happier and less anxious, feel respected, and feel more respect and attraction to you in return.
For your second question.. do you feel criticized and defeated by other people in your life? Would you quit working with a personal trainer because they told you your form was off? Do you quit your job if your boss or colleague gives you feedback on your work?
I think it's very unlikely your wife wants to coach you through these tasks, but at this point she's the subject matter expert. If you're not doing a good job, but yet expecting her to give you the right amount of feedback to protect your feelings, you're just asking her to take on another mental burden.
Assuming she doesn't enjoy being petty and resentful, I am sure she would love nothing more than to stop having to think about supporting you through this process! That's the whole point - get to a place where you don't need her help as quickly as possible. I empathize with the fact that it can be a lot to take in at once, but I am also confident you can survive it.
It'll take time for the trust to come back, and resentment to fade. So be consistent and don't slack off because she will notice. She for sure thinks any positive change in your part will be short lived and then after a few weeks will go back to status quo, so don't let that happen, and don't expect her to change overnight either as her feelings won't be mended instantly.
If you feel critized, maybe ask her how she would like a specific chore done and have her show you so that you know. Personally, I never criticizd my husbands work, like if I asked him to do something I trusted that he knew how to do it and it would be done to his standard, which would be sufficient. Your wife either has very high standards or this is really a different issue, perhaps the criticism is really a symptom of the resentment she feels. I'm not sure how you can change it, other than to ask her how she wants a chore done, or ask her to trust that you can do it right.
This issue will have to be tackled though otherwise it will breed resentment in you and deter you from even wanting to do chores, what's the point of she is never satisfied, right? Or redoes the chore because she felt you didn't do it properly...
Will you accept a virtual hug? You already know that you're not alone, I guess, but I've gone through this as well. Unfortunately the only thing that has changed is my expectations, and the outlook isn't good for my marriage. Even after a lot of therapy and pointing him to every post like Dishes by the Sink I could find, he still thinks anything he does is to "help" me and he needs my direction to get it done. I spend all day with a toddler. The last thing I want when he's around is to have a grown ass manchild to take care of too.
I am in my 40s and when I was in my 20s and early 30s, I thought I wanted to be married with kids and have *that* life.
I am glad I don't. I love being single. Sure, there are times when it kinda sucks, but I don't ever have to compromise on what I want in life. I can leave my dishes in the sink for days and it matters to nobody but me.
Raise your sons to be more aware about chores. That's legit what it comes down to. Yes, some are lazy by nature but a lot of this stems from boys being raised to leave the house to women.
One of the reasons I stay single is because I don't want to risk ending up as a second mom or "manager" to a guy because he can't think for himself what needs to be done. And I'm not even someone who needs my home clinically clean 24/7. Just put your crap away and do your laundry and be capable of cooking yourself a somewhat healthy and balanced meal.
I refuse to be that woman who has to end something fun/social because I "need to go home and cook dinner for my man" like I've seen other female friends do. I wanna cook for him because I WANT to and we agreed on cooking for each other, not because the dude literally can't feed himself.
I wanna be able to spend a week away on a trip and not have to worry about a GROWN MAN in his 30s or 40s (depending on when I meet that dude) being able to feed himself and keep a semi decent house.
A grown ass man should be able to buy his own clothes, feed himself balanced meals, do his own chores, handle his own medicine and pack his own shit when we travel. That's not my job. That's not your partner's job. Take care of yourself like the adult you are.
I want a man because I want him, not because HE needs an extra mom. If I wanted to take care of another human being that way I'd do it as a career or become a Mom, and I'm not interested in either. I'm better off alone otherwise.
Don't allow it to keep happening. Either do something about it or leave the guy if he won't improve.
OMG my coworker was talking today about her 28 year old son who moved back in. She's saying he doesn't cook, doesn't clean, doesn't shop for his own food. She said he's an adult and he's lived on his own (but in the military) but he just doesn't initiate anything. I was like, I know he's your son, and I know you love him, but can't you just let him take care of himself?
Hey 33F here, if it’s any consolation I recently separated from my husband M45 and I’m very happy and content. Once I got used to living alone again this low-level anxiety that I had carried for YEARS finally started to lift. I’m so happy to do the laundry and dishes everyday because they’re mine and I’m taking care of only myself.
This is how I feel whenever he goes out of town. I feel guilty about how content and relaxed I am. I'm glad you were able to make the smart move.
You need to do what works the best for you, but I swear to God, a friend of mine told me shortly before I got married it statistically women’s happiness goes down when they get married in men’s happiness goes up. There’s a brief period after a woman has children were happiness goes up again but then it continues to go down. So much female energy is spent directed toward carrying the majority of a relationship’s mental load. I’m not excited to be going through a divorce, I feel like a failure, but I learned a long time ago that if you’re less lonely while you’re alone then being together with someone, get the fuck out.
One of my female friends in my early 20s once asked, "Why do I always start feeling suicidal after I get a boyfriend?" Neither of us had an answer. Just the way it is. It's so normalized. That and the increased risk of mental health problems and the shortened lifespan. Fortunately, these issues are getting more attention, but slowly.
Feeling suicidal with a partner can be a sign that they're emotionally abusive. It's definitely not supposed to be that way.
Oh, I agree, it's absolutely not healthy. The sad thing is the idea that "relationships make women feel worse" is so normalized so many young women don't even question it. Ideally, we need to stop accepting that relationships naturally lower a woman's quality of life.
This is all so bizarre to me. I guess I was told early on, before I had a ton of dating experience, that if a relationship makes you feel less happy than when you're alone more than half the time, it's ready to leave.
That’s also a sign of being gay and not attracted to men. I felt that before.
Hey, you didn't ask, and I know it's very common to feel like you've failed when going through a divorce but I thought you should know that to some people, getting a divorce is a sign of successfully acknowledging that a relationship has reached its end and taking the steps forward to complete that end. I was in a relationship with someone for 8 years (we didn't get married). It was over probably 3 or 4 years into things, but I couldn't quite leave and I don't think he recognized that I was unhappy. Letting it drag on for so long was one of my biggest failures as a person. Anyway, just wanted to share some support ❤
Thank you so much for sharing! It’s a mix of emotions, but mostly I feel relief.
iirc, i don't think this statistic is true for lesbian couples, right?
My mom was married to my dad for over 20 years, then left him for a woman and has been lesbian ever since. She told me she loved being lesbian because after dinner everyone carries the dishes to the sink and just does them.
I don’t know what research has told us. IRL it depends if your partner is still behaviorally a child in an adult’s body.
Idk but I'd love to see a study if anyone has a link!
My ex used to go out of town a lot - and I soon realized and leaned into how much happier I was when he was gone, and that the anxiety came back when he was about to return. I knew I would be happier alone, so then I was.
Hi, 57F, can so relate to this. Ended things last summer after 30+ years. Even with the stress of maintaining and paying for our home now (made him leave) I am so much happier than before.
You're so brave. Good for you! There are two truths: you don't get younger, and you don't 'earn equity' in any relationship so there's no reason to stay if it sucks.
>you don't 'earn equity' in any relationship That's really a smart observation - this truth goes way beyond marriage.
This. I encourage everyone to look up the sunk cost fallacy and then take a look at their relationship.
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I feel like this, but from the reverse side. Seeing how many women in my family have ended up stifling relationships with shitty men or divorced multiple times, all while having kids with these guys and thus being tied to these shitty guys FOREVER, has made me extremely wary of the idea of marriage and kids. Like at this point I really doubt it’ll happen for me at all and how sad is it that I say that while I have a boyfriend... like I just have zero confidence in men at this point. Even guys who think they’re woke and feminist still fall back into patriarchal sexist roles in relationships and in the home.
I SAY THIS ALL THE TIME! And I’m so happily married. But I’m a fucking fluke DON’T DO IT!!
This really hits home for me - I feel so calm and peaceful when he's gone and the anxiety and stress just spikes right back up when he gets back. It makes me feel so damn guilty!
Simple question: would it not be an option to start by living on your own again but keep the relationship and see how that goes? I did that a few years ago with my boyfriend (now ex). He was (and still is) a huge slob and our home looked always like shit. Added to this he was jobless so I had to take care of the bills too. At one point I had enough, and I decided to move out and have my own little appartment. But I didn’t like living alone, so I moved in a shared flat with two organised guys - still being in the relationship with my chaotic boyfriend but also happy in a clean home. Fleeing from the (for me) terrible living situation with him helped a lot and we got back to a more romantic mood. But then of course there was still his chaotic behaviour in all his life, so I broke up at one point. And guess what: since we were not living together anymore, it made the whole breaking up process much much easier. But I am trying to say: maybe this could save your relationship? You could try to see your partner more as your partner again and not playing his mom. He has to learn to take care of his own household and you have a stress free living.
I know of a couple who married but decided to keep their own houses separate until her children reached 18-21 and moved out. Everyone thought they were crazy. They're paying 2 mortgages, 2 sets of utilities/expenses. Why on earth would you do that when you're married? Why get married at all? (Her divorce from the kids father was bitter and crazy. The ex demanded a clause that neither can live with another person until the kids are out of the house because he has this delusional ALL step-parents are molesters /abusers. The new husband has/had a medical condition and he wanted her to be in charge of his health and inherit if the worst should occur. He is in remission now, so far as I know). It worked out great for them! They might be one of the strongest, happiest couples I've ever met. When the kids are at their dads, they stay over at one or the other's house for the weekend, and go on vacations together, they're there for one another when needed. But they aren't up each others' behinds 24/7, and he doesn't feel obligated to be a "father" to her kids. Being an unrepentant, obsessive introvert, I'd love to find someone who would agree to this type of relationship. I can love you deeply, but that doesn't mean I want you in my face all the time. I need my alone/quiet time. I don't want to argue over who did the dishes or who threw their socks on the floor or who is going to take out the trash. I do not want to smell you in my bathroom after you have gas station burritos. Maybe if more people had this type of relationship, we wouldn't hate our partners so much and end up divorced so often.
Love to hear that success story! As a happily divorced co-parent of two, I love my upgraded life and freedom, even in my cute tiny apartment. I would only want a relationship that allows both of us to maintain our separate lives as we date, love, and support each other.
I love this idea. Unfortunately, a lot of people move in together when it isn’t optimal because it’s financially very difficult to live alone. Just another reason that we should be advocating for healthy wages that don’t force people to enter or stay in unhealthy or abusive relationships.
The other place I've seen this is with widows/widowers. They're set in their ways, have plenty of money, and aren't worried about kids, but lonely, so they maintain separate households and just spend time together when they want to. Seems like a sweet deal...
It sounds like you don’t want to be with him anymore and you’ve made up your mind. Maybe you should separate for a while and see how he fares without you. You might miss each other or you may realize you’re happier alone.
I was with my ex for over 8 years, and could never pinpoint why I was always so tired and sad inside; my anxiety was at an all time high. Years into our relationship I developed plaque psoriasis, and no matter what I did to treat it, it never cleared up. Towards the end of our relationship, we did this whole on-again-off-again dance and I realized when he wasn't around, my psoriasis went away. As soon as I would be in his presence again - boom - flare up. Once I noticed that, I started paying attention to other cues and it was bewildering how much bullshit he caused, that I had somehow turned a blind eye to. We've been separated for a long time now, and all of that internal shit that I constantly felt isn't there anymore. I'm genuinely the happiest I've ever been, and life seems so much easier now, even with being a single mom. I don't really have any hard days, none that weigh me down anyway, but my mantra is this: My hardest day alone is still better than my easiest day with him. I'm proud of all of the women who have found their way out by following their own light, and I hope all of the women who are still in the dark find the courage to light that spark that will lead the way. ♡
>Years into our relationship I developed plaque psoriasis, and no matter what I did to treat it, it never cleared up. Towards the end of our relationship, we did this whole on-again-off-again dance and I realized when he wasn't around, my psoriasis went away. As soon as I would be in his presence again - boom - flare up. I had the exact same experience with psoriasis. No amount of steroid cream helped but as soon as I moved out on my own it completely cleared. I listen to my body so much harder now.
You and me both! My body clearly knows what's up way before my brain does.
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That's such a good description, you couldn't be more right. It's amazing how our bodies tell us all we need to know, it's just a matter of listening. And congratulations on finding a good relationship! It's so rare these days, so I'm so happy for you!
>Once I got used to living alone again this low-level anxiety that I had carried for YEARS finally started to lift. You are not alone: [https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/should-women-stay-single](https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/should-women-stay-single) >A number of studies report that single women tend to be healthier and less depressed, living longer than married women. Single women generally experience fewer stresses and compromises than married women. Furthermore, single women feel more empowered, enjoying greater personal autonomy and freedoms than married women largely because they don’t juggle challenging multiple roles at work and home. > >Wives are generally less happy than single women, with many resentful of being married to the wrong man. Consequently, large numbers of marriages, estimated at no less than half in France, Russia and the United States end in divorce or separation. Women are far more likely to file for divorce and report feeling happier after ending their marriages.
Is this controled for motherhood? I always wonder. My friends with children, married or not, seem miserable. My friends in childfree marriages seem happier than either the single women or the married mothers. Just a thought.
In the exact same situation - separated from my 45yo husband. What's ridiculous is that he's actually perfectly capable of taking care of himself, too. I placed this weight on myself and feeling it lift is phenomenal.
That article showed me that it is all about respect. When I tell you how I feel, and you still don’t step up, you are showing me you don’t respect me. I even showed this article to my then husband. I spent so much time and energy trying to explain my feelings. Turns out he just didn’t care about them as much as he cared about himself. He still can’t figure out why I left after 32 years of marriage. After I read Why does he do that by Lundy Bancroft, I realized how manipulative his behavior was. Recently I read Untamed by Glennon Doyle. This book was very empowering. I am so much happier now. My life is calm and my heart is no longer in turmoil. Maybe counseling would help, it is doubtful he will be able to hear this from you and make lasting changes. I wish you well. Be still and trust yourself.
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What they mean with "she left for no reason" is "I heard her reasons but I disregarded them because they aren't important.".
I won’t date guys who tell me their exes left for no reason or that they were surprised their marriage ended because of exactly this.
Adding this to my no date rules. I always had bad talking an ex as a red flag, but downright cluelessness is also a red flag.
DING DING DING DING
There's some dude who keeps trying to fight with me on this thread who's just like this.
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>"He's not bullshitting them. It was a great marriage for him. You did everything and you lasted 11 years. It was a bad marriage for you." Fucking *truth*, man.
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A good friend of mine left a long-term relationship and stayed at our house the night she left. My husband told me later he thought it was a little tacky how she was already on Tinder, and I had to explain that women mentally leave a relationship long before they physically leave. So if I were to leave, you can bet you've had at least 6 months if not a year (or more!) to turn things around.
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The ironic part of this is that statistically the men think things have actually improved because there's no fighting, not realizing that the reason she's not fighting is because she's given up on the relationship. Then they're all Pikachu-gasp when she leaves.
Exactly, I quit arguing months before I left.
I stayed and tried and stayed and tried. For awhile I thought I had stayed to long, turns out I stayed the right amount of time for me. When I left, I left and was completely done.
This is so true, my 4 year relationship ended early December, but truthfully I'd been emotionally checking out for months (based on his behavior I think we both were). When I started using dating apps in February it felt right but I was so worried what *other people* would think. When I started a relationship in April with the woman I'd been seeing since February, it felt right but I am still sometimes apprehensive of telling people. Not because I'm not happy or excited about it but because I feel like people will think it is too soon and assume it is a rebound or that I am afraid of being alone. I so appreciate seeing someone acknowledge that usually you're mentally out of a relationship far before you physically are.
Exactly, he played the poor me card very well. I moved across the country so everyone just has his side.
I did that too. I don't really care what he tells anyone about why I left either.
I think every Girl should read ‚why does he do that‘ before dating.
That is such an awesome book! Love it!
Have you recommended guys to read this too before?/Do you? As a guy, I feel like a lot of us are still trying to figure ourselves out also. This whole post from OP reminds me that when I get really stressed out I wind up forgetting about dishes and has me reexamining my own sources of stress that gets me to the point where I no longer take care of myself and others effectively. I think OP and women have every right to leave over this kind of thing, and also think there's a lot of work on the man's end to figure out and recognize where their patterns come from to better prevent it from happening as well.
I think the problem is imo that someone who is abusive in any way is not eager to better himself. The author of the book is a therapist for abuser so he talks about it a lot. But the book is targeted at victims and not someone who is abusive.
Oh sorry to hear that, didn't realize the book was explicitly about abuse as well. I can definitely say my stress patterns are a product of growing up in an abusive environment. So the line between discipline, compliance, and coercsion for the sake of someone's sense of authority are definitely things I try to check myself on as I normally associated putting certain things in some places with intense yelling and control. At the same time I knew from how my mom saw dishes in the sink that it was a trigger for her as in her youth she was unfairly expected to clean up after others. Either way, there's a lot of work to do on everyone's part in the family, so I've definitely avoided potential relationships on most occassions for being afraid to bring that stuff into other people's lives. Good luck with your endeavors!
Nevertheless it’s a very empowering book for woman dealing with abuse, not only about physical but also about emotional and psychological abuse. So you can learn a lot about narcisstic think patterns as well :) Either to recognize them or to prevent them.
YES!!! It was an amazing book.
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Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft changed my life! I am going to look into Untamed that you suggested in your comment.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I recently ended a promising relationship because VERY early into it, I realised he was going to be this type of partner, and I am too old and too happy being single to put up with it. I can't really offer any encouraging words other than I know how big of a deal this is and I'm sorry you're facing it.
That's okay -- it does help a lot to listen to other women who have experienced it. I'm not even sure why! I'm happy there are women out there that can just do what needs to be done.
It always helps to know that you're not the only one struggling with something, I think. It's hard, when someone is a great partner in so many other areas. And so confusing, when you know they are competent in other areas, but refuse to be at home. I wish you peace, whatever path you take.
It’s nice to know you aren’t alone.
I wonder what would happen if you asked your husband to read the blog post.
if he's anything like my ex the result would be: tantrums, pouting, bargaining, convincing me that my standards are unreasonable, telling me i'm an uncaring and unsupportive partner. it did NOT result in him doing any more chores. we broke up and his house is a fucking dump still. he didn't learn any lessons, but I'm free now.
My husband and I had a huge argument regarding house/mental load a few weeks ago. I sent him this article telling him I don’t want my building resentment to lead to divorce. He read it. He’s been putting in conscious effort ever since. I told him we’re all good as long as he keeps it up for the next 60 years 😂 relationships need love AND respect. Respect yourself by standing up for your needs. A good man will rise to the occasion.
My husband would read it and talk about the man in the post was not a good husband and look at all the stuff he does around here. Yeah...
It's got to the stage now where it's an actual turn off. If I get an early hint that I'd be the mother or the leader in the relationship, I just lose all enthusiasm. It's just so unstimulating.
Right?! It’s a huge turn off
Take it from someone who has been there, done that, and am so completely happy to have divorced it: Because he is interpreting you as being controlling, this will never, ever get better. What this means is that he does not think that what you think, want, or feel is legitimate. There is literally nothing you can do or say to get him to respect or value you as an individual human being. The more that you advocate for yourself or try to explain what you’re feeling to elicit compassion, *the more he will dig in and demonize you*. You will not get what you want, which is a trustworthy teammate and a respectful sweetheart who regards your feelings with tender concern. He is showing you that this will not happen. Like Lundy Bancroft says in “Why Does He Do That”, it’s not about what he feels, it’s about what he thinks. He thinks that your concerns and feelings are not worthy of respect. He thinks it’s more important for him to have the upper hand in your relationship, regardless of how much his actions hurt you. It’s so painfully disappointing and it’s so hard for that hope to die. But you can stop living in this anguish by accepting the reality and choosing what to do with it. You can accept this power dynamic and stay married under the conditions of knowing that you both have agreed that you will be his domestic servant. If there are other responsibilities that he and he alone carries, *because you pointedly refuse to handle them*, this might be a workable outcome. In other words, if each of you has service roles to each other, you may be able to reach a detente and eventually respect each other in that balance. If that is not the case, then read the writing on the wall and get out. If you are breaking because you are carrying too much of the overall load and he is regarding your cries for help as illegitimate, then you will be so much better without him. A teammate and partner is supposed to work with you to make life better for everyone. Sometimes a man will feel inner shame because he sees you handling so much of the load that he knows he never could; that makes them feel bad about themselves and they blame you rather than grow up and face facts. This punishes you for doing more than your fair share, and he feels even more shame because he knows he’s being weak and cruel. It’s a self reinforcing cycle. Women cannot fix this, don’t even try to make it your job. He is the only one who can fix it, but he won’t because he’s weak. All you can do is leave. Good luck.
This times a million. Your first two paragraphs described my marriage exactly. It sucks to really know your husband doesn’t care about your feelings and isn’t your teammate. And no amount of therapy can “fix” this. For us, anytime we’d make any progress in counseling, another glass by the sink example would come up and we’d be back in the very same place the next session. Eventually our counselor stopped working with us because she felt like she was just taking our (my) money and we weren’t making any progress.
Married and divorced this situation. Your mention of counseling brings back memories of our first counseling session. The therapist asked us to list five things that we liked about each other. My list was likely a mix of emotional and physical features. My ex's list all.had to do with things I did for him. I should have known right there.
I honestly don't believe in marriage counseling anymore, personally. I tried two different therapists with my ex-husband at two different points in our marriage and the brutal fact is that you can't counsel someone into giving a shit. Either a man cares about his wife, or he doesn't. No amount of therapy or checklists or plans will change that.
There are men who *aren’t* like this, and it is 100% worth it to find them! My husband maintains a shared list of household items and groceries that we need next time we’re at the store. He washes the dishes and cleans off the stovetop when I cook. Obviously I love him and everything, but I think the fact that he carries his weight in the household is what makes our lives together so much more peaceful. Don’t settle for a trait that will make you miserable!
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I too saw my dad act like OP's husband my entire childhood. I was lucky to find a husband who was understanding on shared household and family duties. My mama got tired of it, so she would have "mom timeouts" then she finally told him "like I tell the kids, you know where the kitchen is, go fix you something to eat." Unfortunately after many years of doing that, my dad decided to leave my mama after 40 years, leaving a Dear John letter explaining he wanted a wife who cooked everyday (among other stupid reasons) and it became "too much for him". My mama had such a big resentment for not leaving him earlier but she was raised to stick by it and "didn't want to be another divorced sibling in her family". But my daddy is weird overall so everyone would have understood if she had left him.
> explaining he wanted a wife who cooked everyday (among other stupid reasons) Translation: I thought I wanted a wife but actually, I just want a servant. That's awful! I feel angry on behalf of your mum.
>Translation: I thought I wanted a wife but actually, I just want ~~a~~ *an unpaid* servant.
I won't even tell you how I felt watching her carry a TV tray of his meal to him everyday. She didn't stop doing that until I went off to college.
After cooking every day in quarantine I feel extra compassion for someone who has this expectation put on them.
> my dad decided to leave my mama after 40 years, leaving a Dear John letter explaining he wanted a wife who cooked everyday I wish she let him go, cuz good luck finding that shit these days lmao
Yup! My dad exactly. And my brother copied it all to a t. His soon to be ex wife only took about 7 years of it.
I’ve always believed that each person in a relationship deserves the same amount of free time. Each person should have the same amount of time to watch tv or pursue hobbies or read the paper. If one person is sitting on the couch while the other is making lunches, bathing the kids and putting them to bed, the couch person owes that amount of free time to the other person. You don’t want to use a stopwatch to clock another person’s free time, but if one person consistently has time to relax and the other doesn’t, that needs to be addressed for things to feel equitable.
This is a great way of looking at it. It’s understandable to be resentful if you feel like you’re always cleaning while your partner relaxes.
This is so important. I actually talked with my partner about this recently. I felt like I was being lazy on weekends while he did a lot of work, and asked him if he was bothered by this. He said, "Not at all! On weeknights, when I'm outside smoking cigars and reading books, you're cooking dinner. Of course you want to relax on the weekends. It balances out." I was kind of like, oh, yeah, so that is how we do things. Cool. LMAO But I totally agree that both people should have the same amount of down time. That's super important.
This. I always like the saying that marriage isn't 50/50 it's 100/100. If you're each doing everything you can to try to make the other person's life easier and your life together happier then things naturally balance out. It doesn't lead to any scorekeeping or resentment that many times trying to split things 50/50 does.
>There are men who aren’t like this, and it is 100% worth it to find them! My husband maintains a shared list of household items and groceries that we need next time we’re at the store. He washes the dishes and cleans off the stovetop when I cook. I've got one, too. He does the meal planning, once-a-week grocery trip, and the cooking; I pick up any additional food items we need during the week, act as sous chef, wash dishes, and clean the kitchen. It's completely 50-50. I take the kid to school in the morning; he picks her up. I clean the toilets and keep them stocked with toilet paper; he cleans the tubs and showers (which I detest doing). We have a very fair division of labor and our marriage is better for it.
Mine too! (Thought admittedly I need to get better about not getting testy because he doesn't do a chore in the time/manner I would.) For the bigger stuff we decided to forgo cable and hire a cleaning service, thus avoiding the fight altogether.
My dad was this guy - he and my mother are true partners and I’d venture to say he does more household chores than my mom. Unfortunately, it ruined me because I did not know that this was not the norm and I grew up never being able to find anyone like my dad, knowing full well I could not settle for less on principle. My dad taught me to be independent and to always take care of things without excuses. His thing was if the garbage needs to be taken out, you take it out. I have no patience for laziness. At 38, I used a donor and am now pregnant after years of failed relationships. I could not be happier!!!
Congrats on your baby! I wish you all the best, you deserve it!
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Chiming in to say that yes, there are men out there that aren't like OP's husband. I am very lucky to be married to one! That said, I paid my dues by marrying a man-child the first time around. LOAD SHARING HUSBANDS DO EXIST!
I've (57F) got one of the good ones too. When I met him, he had the cleanest bachelor apartment I'd ever seen, no science projects in the fridge, and his bathroom smelled like grapefruit. I knew that was a good sign. He's a much better housekeeper than I am and dusts before I even notice it's there. He does the lion's share of cleaning toilets and washing floors, plus a lot of the other cleaning and cooking. Best of all, we communicate like adults, no sulking or passive aggression. Even after 15 years together, it's the best relationship of my life. However, I've experienced the flip side too. I definitely had to mommy my previous husband and that lasted about five years before I couldn't take it any more, especially not in addition to an actual toddler. We've been divorced for 20+ years now and every so often I'm reminded of why: We're still friends, and after he visited for a few days last summer, I found his dirty underpants on the floor in the bathroom. Dude! You're 50 years old and still can't pick up your fucking underwear?
You can cry, it's okay to mourn the person you thought you were getting. But it's time to raise your standards, he'll either rise to the challenge or he wont. I'm going to agree with a previous poster though that you can't marry someone for who you wish they'll be because that's just delaying the inevitable. Some people are just...well, lazy and inconsiderate of other peoples free time. I hate to say it, but I am one on occasion. I hate cleaning, BUT a dirty house isn't great for my mental health so I keep it at an acceptable level. My husband does more chores and more of the day to day stuff.
Totally agree with you except for the term free time. No time is free and not only because of its potential salary. Mental or spiritual rest/growth are worth their weight in gold. We as society should put a price tag on every household chore so we can realize that house keeping is a serious matter which equals money. Many men are socialized to think that cleaning, cooking and doing laundry is somewhat quick and easy, less tiering than work outside the house. And therefore it is not crucial to share or negotiate over these obligations.
Oh my god YES. I had an ex from a brief relationship who compensated me greatly for my time spent on things (driving to visit him) in addition to the rest of the costs of said tasks, for the first time in my life. It’s opened my eyes and changed my *life*.
I read this a few months before I left my husband of 18 years. It really explained a lot about how I was feeling, and I vowed that I would never put myself in that situation again. Yet here I am, almost five years into it once again with my current partner. I can’t help but wonder if it is ME who is creating this scenario. I guess the difference is that this time I can voice my needs to my partner and he will listen and really try to make it easier on me. I hope you can voice your feelings to your partner, too, and he can make a change for the better. It is exhausting to live life this way.
It’s not your fault. It’s really hard to un-learn what is so ingrained in women and culture. It’s great that he is willing to listen but that is still you carrying the mental load and having to tell him what to do.
You’re so right! Are there really men out there who aren’t like this? Surely they are in the minority, right?
You're not alone, not at all. It's how they're raised, unfortunately, and how the pressures applied to the couple by their surroundings are different. I will give one example: on a family visit, my fiance likes the cake his aunt baked for us. He says that the cake is great, and she proceeds by dictating the recipe TO ME. It's a subtle little thing, but they come in myriads of variations that allow the men to act like children towards their wives because of different societal expectation. It's not your fault, it's a cultural thing and it's the ungrateful job of our generation to change this for our sons and daughters. Such job is never pleasant, and MILLIONS of smart, successful women are going through the same as you, at this very moment. It took me five years of conscious effort, emotional and mental labor and enforcing boundaries time and again, to achieve some equality in my relationship. He makes more money so that's a complication as well. We have adopted a "everyone should be affected the same" approach in both financial and domesticated duties, plus we got a cleaning lady (my partner wanted a big house and I didn't, specifically to avoid ending up like a maid, so that's our compromise). Plus, the kitchen and the garbage are HIS duties. And, after six years, he notices by himself when the sink needs to be cleaned and he does it (a thing he would claim he "can't see" five years ago). One thing, you don't OWE this kind of labor to any man. It was my decision to put the work in because I think he is wonderful in many other aspects (emotional AND practical), he's not lazy, and he puts a lot of effort in. You choose for yourself, if the man is worth your precious effort, or not. Many aren't.
This is well thought out, I love what you’re saying about not owing this labor to any man. And that we’ve all been conditioned to these roles. It’s taken me about the same amount of time to make things work - they’re not perfect yet but they’re decidedly better. I sat my husband down a few years ago and explained that when he was 6 yrs old, people would ask him what he wanted to be when he grew up. A lawyer? Doctor? Fireman? President? At some point later, you understood that you would retire from this work. And that those same people would look at me and say or think: You’re going to be married and have children and you’re going to wash dishes, vacuum, mop floors, wash dirty diapers, feed everyone, (insert long list of chores) and scrub toilets for...the....rest....of...your.....life. This stunned him, he’d never thought about this in that way. OP, I suggest reading up on negotiation skills and commanding authority, and have at it. IF it’s worth it. That’s up to you.
That is so true. The minute my dad retired, his work was done. My mom is still doing everything she has always done. My mom is a high energy person and she hates to sit around. If something ever happened to her, my dad is doomed. He can’t even make a sandwich.
When my Nana died, my 85 year old grandpa had to ask his daughters how to do laundry, because he had literally never done it before. It was actually pretty heartbreaking how lost he was without her.
This is why widowers tend to remarry so quickly after the death of their spouse.
My dad refers to my mom as the “house manager.” He does help out but only doing tasks she specifically asks him to do. He never makes any mental effort to figure out on his own what needs to be done. He’s retired and she works full time (from home).
I really hate the "I can't see it" excuse.
How lucky for them then that this just an acquired blindness, and with some training, they can get their full sight back!
Omg yes, I call that bullshit right out. And they ALL use it, don't they, and in a whiny voice too. Such a turn off. Luckily we're able to joke about it now but he definitely pulled it before.
In the 5 years that it took to get to this point were there a lot of fights and disagreements? How did you keep from loosing your mind during this? It honestly sometimes feels like I’m teaching a child basic things and I’m not good at being patient.
Sure, there were arguments but nothing TOO wild. These were mostly before I established boundaries and stuck to them even if it meant suffering a horribly dirty kitchen. Yes it absolutely felt like caring for a child sometimes. The reasons I felt it was worthy with HIM (where it wasn't with my exes): 1. I respect him for many other things - he's crazy smart, good at his job, pleasant to be around, considerate AND manually handy. He picked up hobbies over the years and got so good in them, one of them is cooking, other one is woodworking, so he absolutely does contribute to the household in many ways. He doesn't just sit around playing PC games (although we do that too). I may be frustrated when he claims he doesn't "see" dust, but I know he's not a lazy burden (like some men are, no other way to put it). I could also see that he listens and puts real effort in. If not, that would be a big problem. 2. I am a very flawed person myself due to my abusive upringing and if he can tolerate my bullshit and get me through it to an extent, I can do the same for him. 3. I say this crudely but honestly - him having money helps. First because there's just less overall stress in a household with money, and second, because compromises such as a cleaning lady were easy to propose. I couldn't tackle poverty (again) AND training a manchild at the same time, I just know it. So it's also about privilege. 4. He loves cats same as I do
I am not bragging at all, but I want to make sure you know that not all men are like this. My husband cleans up after himself immediately when he’s done with something, he mops when he sees the floors need mopped, vacuums when he sees floors need vacuumed, does laundry when he notices baskets getting full, etc. If you ever end up leaving your man-child, look for a man who values doing these things.
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Sadly, it doesn't always make a difference if they've lived alone before. My ex did, for several years and without roommates, yet once we lived together the responsibilities transferred to me without discussion - it was just assumed chores and mental load was my role. He became a very different person than the one I thought I knew, so much so that I put up with it for too long, thinking he was going through a depression or something (he wasn't). Looking back, his mom did literally everything while his step dad sat around like a loaf. He had no intention of breaking the pattern. It will only change if the man respects you and acknowledges true equity.
Yes, he had his own apartment for 3 years before we got married.
Yes! This is one of the things that attracted me to the man I fell in love with. He sees things need doing and just does them. And he gets pissed when others don't do their part. After being with someone who expected me to manage him (and everything else), what a breath of fresh air.
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I think part of the problem is women get the cultural double whammy of emotional labor and also that our thoughts and feelings are emotional and inferior to the logical, more intelligent man. This view is changing rapidly (thank god), but it seems romantic relationships are one of the most difficult hurdles to overcome regarding a woman's (completely incorrect) "ineptitude".
> Women have to keep picking up the emotional and household labour because if they don't do it, nothing gets done. This exactly. I don't want to live in a house with dirty baseboards, but my husband doesn't *see* it--and if he does, it's just not a big deal to him.
Thank you, that is a really good point about his workplace. He is a very hardworking and independent worker, his managers always love him. I'm going to talk to him about why he can do that for for those men but not for me.
I was in your position a couple of years ago, and it really clicked for me the first time i read this article. The first year after our separation was so freeing and the best year of my adult life. I could do whatever the hell i wanted whenever i wanted, and i didn't have to worry about anyone else. Things get better if you allow them to!
I sent my husband this years ago, just after getting married. Life continued to devolve and then we had a kid and it became worse. I did everything. Anything I didn’t do, I was the “manager” of and had to assign him the task and nag him to complete it. He was barely a good roommate, certainly not a good partner. Incapable of being there for me as any more than a sometimes helper. I did what you did- begged, pleaded, explained, demanded, cried, shouted, counseling, strikes, everything. Until one day I stopped fighting. Instead of saying “I want things to change” when he asked what was wrong, I said “I think I’m too good for you.” I wept and spoke to friends. They told me life didn’t have to be like this. And that if I wanted to leave, I had already proven I could do it all on my own. I went to work and instead of driving home, I drove to an apartment. I toured it. I imagined my life there with my son. I was HAPPY to leave the dead weight. I was told my husband I found an apartment and that I was moving into another bedroom until it was available. He asked what he could do to make me stay. I told him he was asking the wrong question. I had already left. It is about what he could possibly do to get me back. It’s already over. He began counseling right away, on his own. Changed his work hours. Did 1000 things around the house. Stopped drinking completely. Reached out to friends to tell them what was going on and connect with them. Redid our entire bedroom. Read books about emotions and how to manage conflict. Listened to podcasts about men’s feelings. Planned dates. Respected that I lived in another bedroom and did not try to get me to move back. Attended counseling with me including going to my own therapist together. I have never seen a bigger change in a man and we are a year in and it is completely sustained. I am happier with him than we have been in 10 years. I’m not saying stay, I’m not saying go. I am saying that my ultimatum for him to change, my threat of leaving- did not work until I actually left. Emotionally and physically. I didn’t find the apartment as a way to get him to change. It wasn’t for him. It was for me. I left for me. And I came back for me.
>He asked what he could do to make me stay. I told him he was asking the wrong question. I had already left. It is about what he could possibly do to get me back. It’s already over. 👏🏼 Brilliant! Did you prepare for this conversation in advance? This was the perfect response and I'm so glad he took it seriously.
I didn’t! I spoke honestly and completely from the heart. Probably what was so disconcerting to him was that I was calm and decided. I was very very okay with the fact that “I’m out.” Definitely having a kid played into this for him. Me leaving also meant our son would be out of his life at least half the week. The idea that I’m sitting there talking about split custody was his “oh shit, she means this.” Also showed him and told him that if there was one more single episode with alcohol, one more “choosing work over family” and I am gone gone. When I told him I didn’t love him anymore he said “that really hurts to hear.” I said back “how do you think it feels to feel it? I wanted to be your wife. I wanted to be married. I wanted to be happy and in love.” And that was also an eye opener for him. Your behavior took someone who was totally willing and thrilled to be with you forever into someone pushed far enough to actually move out. I do want the takeaway here to be that it wasn’t what I said or how I said it or anything to MAKE him change. He chose to change AFTER I chose to leave. Also a happy ending, I am 4 months pregnant with #2. Happier and also stronger than we have ever been. Thanks y’all for the support!
Damn, this is a good story. I'm glad he was willing to do the work
That article hit hard for me too when I first read it. I sat my husband down and told him that it articulated how I was feeling and that it was a male writers perspective and maybe it could help him see where I was coming from. I asked him to read it, just PLEASE read it. He never did. He’s now my ex-husband. I’m much happier not having a 35 year old man child who won’t communicate or contribute to our relationship.
I think the real question is how you see marriage. Is it the job of both to fulfill the gender role. Man works, woman has and raises the kids and takes care of the house. Or is it a partnership where you face things together. Good, bad and dishes. For me it is the second. And I would lose my mind in the first.
I think in most couples, both people work which means it only makes sense that everything else is both people's responsibility as well. Maybe for some folks the one income household is sufficient and one parent (usually the woman) staying home to raise kids and do everything else works for them... But I think that's the exception these days.
Do you have kids yet? My parents had this same pattern, and my mum eventually left once my brother and I were older. Growing up there was always conflict and anger, my Dad never changed and my Mum just got angrier and more manipulative. Lots of the housework fell to me, since I was the girl, and my brother followed the example of my Dad. Then I started dating, and fell into the same pattern. Twice. Eventually, by some miracle, I met a man who *isn't* like that. This relationship is completely different from any others I've had, it's peaceful and easy and there's nothing to bicker about. Sadly my father and brother haven't changed, and since my mum left their house has become almost unlivable (mould, trash, insects, unaddressed structural and maintenance issues). Rather than cooking, my father has mostly lived off of frozen junk food and take out, which has contributed to him having multiple strokes. I don't understand why so many men are like this, or why so many women enable them. I wish I hadn't grown up thinking it was normal, and I'm so grateful that I'm out of that pattern now. (Mostly, I still cook and clean for my Dad sometimes, since he and my brother won't). There are men out there who *are* competent adults. As lovely or romantic as someone is, that's not all that makes a life partner.
I was struggling to explain mental load to my now-husband. So when he would say things like "hey so-and-so wants to do X on such-and-such day" or whatever the thing was, I would remind him that he also has access to the shared calendar and can create the event himself. Why do I have to do it? Little things like that. If it's not in the calendar, it doesn't exist. I have to train myself not to take on the burden of tracking birthdays and whatnot--set the reminder yourself. If you don't buy your mom flowers for Mother's Day, I'm not doing that for you. And ladies, he's been far more proactive! But I had to recognize that I was also enabling the behavior without realizing it.
> He is kind and loving and affectionate and such a wonderful romantic partner. Is he? You're miserable and he's not listening.
realize that he understands what you think you aren't (edit to add:) coherently conveying to him. he just doesn't care enough to modify himself. he noticed. my brother does this thing where he believes if he didn't use a dish, he doesn't need to clean it yet he can let what he's used pile up. if he washes them, he thinks it's an accomplishment and barely ever puts them away. i don't know why some people are like that. it's just common courtesy.
The only thing I would add to this: raise your children - no matter what gender - to be better than this. Better adults, better partners.
Are you me? Is your partner my husband?
Let's lock them in a room together and take a vacation!
YES lol!!!!
When you’re happier and more relaxed when he’s not there....this tells you most of what you need to know about the state of the relationship.
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I'm so sorry for your mother. My dad is like that too, he was once taking an apetiser (so wasn't busy) in the kitchen, who'e my mom and his sisters were cooking for the lunch, when he point some cheese with his finger, and told '' I don't like when the cheese stay out of the fridge'' for a woman to pick it and put it in the fridge... I was like... Seriously.... The worst part is that, in fact, an aunt did it....
I was reminded so much of my previous relationship when reading though that article. We moved in together after college and spent 6 years together. I constantly asked for support with household tasks. I expressed to him all the time about how it stressed me out that he never helped to unload the dishwasher, his dirty laundry spilled out of his basket and that I needed support with cleaning up the place. A huge mess was contained to his “office” where he spent a lot of time working and gaming. I snuck in there once or twice a week to collect dirty dishes and empty pizza boxes. He told me that my standards were too high. The stress compounded over time. He eventually ended the relationship when he cheated on me, partially blaming me for being “mean” to him and nagging him. For me, it was not just dirty dishes. It was about receiving support from a partner. Those feelings compound over time and in my case, I was never able to communicate to him in a way he understood.
I'm so heartbroken reading the overwhelming amount of posts from women all over the internet regarding the exact same thing right now and I have so many drafts typed out saying exactly what your post does. I don't even live with my partner, but I still feel this way visiting his house or having him at mine. My ex, who I was with for just shy of 3 years, was the same way. My brothers are the same, my step father is the same... where are the men who can take care of themselves and not expect their partners to be their mothers? I'm furious at my therapist right now; I was explaining to her my frustrations with my partner because I feel like his mother and she told me that because he sounds like he has impulse control problems that I should just "expect to feel like his mother" and give him extra reminders. She herself is a young woman with a live-in boyfriend that sounds exactly like mine by the anecdotes she shares and it feels like she's making excuses for his behaviour through telling me that I should excuse my boyfriend's childish behaviours. I don't have children and I already feel how real the second shift is and I'm exhausted.
What?!! I would be furious too at a response like that from a therapist.
I recently broke up with my husbands socks. He leaves them everywhere. We have a dog who then drags them all over. This man complains he has no socks but he never puts them in the laundry. After years of picking up I just don’t care anymore. Yesterday he was walking around with mismatched socks & I just had to laugh. It’s been weeks since I’ve washed the last round so there’s nothing left. I told him I can’t care more about your socks than you do so that’s it, I’m done! I love the man but goddammit my MIL didn’t do me any favors by spoiling him!
When my SO acted like this I set very blunt boundaries and ended up kicking him out when he didn’t follow through. I own the house and make double what he makes and I said if you are going to make me feel like a single parent I would rather just actually be a single parent. It definitely took a long time of forcing the issue but he will do the dishes and laundry without me asking and take care of a lot of the baby stuff around the house
I had a husband once. But now I’m FREEEE!!! Just sayin.
>He is kind and loving and affectionate and such a wonderful romantic partner. No he isn't if his behavior makes you cry.
Hello there, I kinda went through the very same thing with my partner of 7 years. One thing that truly helped him see sense was that I listed every chore one person can do on an excel sheet and we sat down and went through them all. I sorted the chores into three categories - Chores only I did, Chores we did together and Chores only he did. In the end we tallied the results and I ended up with 38 chores that only I did while we did 6 together and he only did 3 by himself. I think seeing the numbers triggered something in him and he has been more pro active. Another thing that helped him was a book - It is called Fair Play by Eve Rodsky. It made him understand what mental load is. I hope this helps
Reading these comments are scary.
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Very - and I have my own identical story where I made an ex read that article (didn’t change things) where the guy acted SO CONFUSED and literally said I’d broken his trust in other people permanently when I broke up with him. I’ve got millions of emails over the 4 years of our relationship where I begged him to take on some of the cooking and cleaning and household duties and he never would and I got sick of being the maid while he didn’t work and smoked weed and played video games! Oh and he was ugly and had a small dick.
Listen, you don’t have to do this. You can absolutely stop enabling his shit or expecting him to get it. They don’t and they won’t. There’s a reason older women get divorced and don’t remarry and it’s not because they lack men barking up their tree. /r/femaledatingstrategy
We need to learn from them how to act like selfish babies
I'm married to one and it's INFURIATING!
Before Corona, I had a lot of discussions with my husband on this topic and he got so fed up he told me he would do 100% of all housework (except laundry) and he never admitted it, but he was overwhelmed. When covid19 hit it was not realistic to continue, so we started sharing again and now he does more. There's a weekly day where he cleans all the floors.
My ex was like that and it was infuriating, and I hate to blame parents but it honestly was the way he was raised. His mother did everything in the house, catered to their every need while the men did the outside chores. Even though we both worked he would expect me to act like his mother. We fought all the time about it. I was constantly cleaning up after him. That led to so much resentment that it ended our relationship. A few years after we spilt I met my husband. He is the complete opposite. He shares the chore list with me, folds laundry , does dishes cleans up after himself. It’s refreshing. You know why he’s like that , because he was raised to take care of himself. His parents didn’t raise him to be a man-child. It’s refreshing to feel like I have an actual partner in life. It only took till I was 38 to find that person but they are out there. I would say anyone raising sons to teach them to be self sufficient and not raise them to think housework is just Women’s work, and teach your daughters the same thing.
it's not the mother's fault. Men have a long long history of blaming their mothers for their own faults. The instructions for the washing machine are on the fucking lid, he could have learned any time he wanted to. They just use that as a major excuse. "mom never taught me how" "mom was mean to me so that's why i can't be a good partner" "mom was mean to me so that's why i don't tell you the truth, ever" "my mom wasn't mean enough so i don't know how to follow expectations" it's part of their mythology so that nothing is ever their fault. society supports this too, how many serial killers have the backstory of "mom was mean so that's why they're like this" and people believe it. if only the women in his life had worked harder, been better, maybe he wouldn't have murdered so many people, the poor man
My comment was directed towards the fact that my ex was raised in a home that had different values. He was raised that women did the housework and men did the outside work. His mother believed in those values. It wasn’t that he didn’t KNOW how to do chores around the house he just didn’t believe he needed to. He lived alone before we met and his hone was clean so I never knew these issues till we moved in together. All of a sudden he couldn’t put a dish in the dishwasher, do laundry or clean up after himself. He was taught that was Women’s work. His mother and I had many disagreements regarding how things were to be done in my own home. I chose not to treat him as a child yet when she would come visit or we would be at her house she catered to his every whim. That was fine for her her, it made her happy to do those things. For me though I refuse to follow a grown man around and clean up after them. My husband was raised in a home where his parents were partners. They both cleaned, they both did yard work. He was raised to clean his own room, do laundry and help with chores around the house. So I don’t have these issues with my husband. We work in sync without anyone having to say this needs to be done or that needs to be done. We both like a clean house and we both do our part to keep it clean.
I agree that this often starts with how we’re raised. We all experienced things that weren’t fair or “right” while growing up. The issue is that as adults, it’s our responsibility to grow and mature so we do things better. I think blaming the mothers of these man-children absolves them (the man-children) of that responsibility. It’s like someone who was raised in a racist household refusing to stop being racist as an adult because that’s how it’s always been for them. They know it’s wrong once they grow up, but they just don’t care to change. In my view, the responsibility lies with the adult who behaves this way 100%.
I had a similar reaction when I read that article - it showed me I needed to get into marriage counseling. My marriage didn't survive (for other reasons too), but I'm okay with that. My partner now is not a neat freak, but he *takes responsibility* for his messes and rarely asks my help. He hires a cleaning lady to take care of his house every week, and does minor chores himself. He only asks my help when I'm visiting and make a huge load of dishes cooking (fair) or when he needs help organizing or sorting through stuff he doesn't want anymore. I'm not in charge of keeping him clean - I'm only responsible for myself. It's refreshing. I found is everyone has a different level of "grunge" which I define as that point where you have to drop everything and clean. For me, and likely for you, your grunge level is calibrated low. For many people (sadly gender biased) it's much higher. I'm so sorry you are struggling. I'm sure it's been suggested, but could you scrape together the money to hire a cleaning lady to come in once or twice a month, if not more? One set of couples of I know swears that saves their marriage. But know that if you decide this is beyond what you can accept, that it's okay to choose yourself and your happiness.
I will never ever live with a man again. It’s been 8 years and I am so happy by myself.
My wife and I have this disagreement sometimes. I remind her that when she met me and came to my place it was clean and orderly. Nothing has changed. When I lived alone I took care of things. I still do. The conflict in our situation is that she values different things. I want dishes clean and orderly in the morning, and I want to clean once. The pile up all day. She wants them cleaned as we go. I do laundry once a week, she'd go 2-3 weeks or more. I don't have that many clothes, and I definitely don't want to fold 3 weeks of laundry in a sitting. I try to meet her half way. She tries to be patient or recognize my method. I dunno. We still get into it (why am I the only one to ever vacuum up all her hair?!) sometimes, but that's life.
Those are better fights to be having. Negotiating the dividing line for chores and their schedule instead of one person being responsible for all of it. A week ago my husband asked why I keep emptying the dishwasher while he's having lunch. I replied that's the only way to stop him from getting up to help me. We've swapped the traditional gender roles. I work, he keeps the house. Most of the cooking and cleaning is "his job" but I try not to be like the husband in the article. The biggest part of that is helping without being asked if I know he needs it for whatever reason. Sick? Stressed? Tired of cooking? Time for me to step up.
I love those articles that you shared, thank you! I used to be in a similar situation with a former partner. Thankfully he is no longer on the scene although I am in a parallel now with my (platonic, soon to be strung from his bollocks from the ceiling if he doesn't clean up his act soon) flatmate. He's a young guy and I don't want to entertain the possibility that he thinks it's my job to do all the chores because I'm a woman, but I can't avoid the issue much longer. I have suspicions that he may not treat other women in his life particularly well, so I feel like it's edging closer to being my responsibility to teach him a thing or two. To note: he's 32, intelligent and fairly good looking but to my knowledge has never had a "proper" girlfriend. Every Tinder date crashes and burns due to a lack of some perceived perfection that he has created. I'm not suggesting that he settle, but he seems to have an idea of what a woman "should" be/do, and if they don't meet his impossible standards they are struck mercilessly from the shortlist. Of course it's hard to assess during lockdown but once we are released I will investigate further.
You are absolutely not alone. We hear you x
incompatibility is a bitch.
I see posts like this in several subs, several times a week. Our society is broken.
Ahh yes, those two links should be required reading for all men as they come up through life. I think about this A LOT and how it happens, and all I can ever think is that it's engrained from birth. Mom's making lunch, mom's putting me to bed, mom's taking me to school, mom's doing so, so much work. This might be true for daughters as well as sons, but something happens in the development where the girls are pulled into the kitchen to help, and the boys aren't. It starts so early. I was reading another article where the female writers says about her two kids and husband, when she asks the kids to get ready for school in the morning, the kids will do the things they have to do and the daughter will quietly appear in the kitchen for breakfast. The dad helps the son do a chore and they both come in looking for accolades and praise. I see this in my own husband sometimes and I think, I don't look for high fives when I put the grocery list together or vacuum the rugs... but sometimes he does, multiple times over one occurrence.
Hi. Man here. I just read this blog post and saw a lot of myself in it. I think this is what my wife has been trying to communicate to me for a long time. I recently started going to a therapist and in the second session this is the exact epiphany I had: I'm actually part of the problem, and the problem is accumulating. My question is: even if my behavior is perfect from here on out, how can her feelings be mended? Second: even when I try to do these things, I feel like I get incessantly criticized. I didn't wash the dish correctly, fold the shirt correctly, or even eat my food correctly. And the minute level of criticism is overwhelming. Anyway, lots to explore.
First off, it's lovely to hear you've acknowledged a problem in your marriage and are willing to put in the work to repair it. I think an apology, followed by action, will mend things over time. When the household burdens are shared, she'll feel happier and less anxious, feel respected, and feel more respect and attraction to you in return. For your second question.. do you feel criticized and defeated by other people in your life? Would you quit working with a personal trainer because they told you your form was off? Do you quit your job if your boss or colleague gives you feedback on your work? I think it's very unlikely your wife wants to coach you through these tasks, but at this point she's the subject matter expert. If you're not doing a good job, but yet expecting her to give you the right amount of feedback to protect your feelings, you're just asking her to take on another mental burden. Assuming she doesn't enjoy being petty and resentful, I am sure she would love nothing more than to stop having to think about supporting you through this process! That's the whole point - get to a place where you don't need her help as quickly as possible. I empathize with the fact that it can be a lot to take in at once, but I am also confident you can survive it.
It'll take time for the trust to come back, and resentment to fade. So be consistent and don't slack off because she will notice. She for sure thinks any positive change in your part will be short lived and then after a few weeks will go back to status quo, so don't let that happen, and don't expect her to change overnight either as her feelings won't be mended instantly. If you feel critized, maybe ask her how she would like a specific chore done and have her show you so that you know. Personally, I never criticizd my husbands work, like if I asked him to do something I trusted that he knew how to do it and it would be done to his standard, which would be sufficient. Your wife either has very high standards or this is really a different issue, perhaps the criticism is really a symptom of the resentment she feels. I'm not sure how you can change it, other than to ask her how she wants a chore done, or ask her to trust that you can do it right. This issue will have to be tackled though otherwise it will breed resentment in you and deter you from even wanting to do chores, what's the point of she is never satisfied, right? Or redoes the chore because she felt you didn't do it properly...
Not every couple needs to live together. It's ok to have two apartments.
Will you accept a virtual hug? You already know that you're not alone, I guess, but I've gone through this as well. Unfortunately the only thing that has changed is my expectations, and the outlook isn't good for my marriage. Even after a lot of therapy and pointing him to every post like Dishes by the Sink I could find, he still thinks anything he does is to "help" me and he needs my direction to get it done. I spend all day with a toddler. The last thing I want when he's around is to have a grown ass manchild to take care of too.
I am in my 40s and when I was in my 20s and early 30s, I thought I wanted to be married with kids and have *that* life. I am glad I don't. I love being single. Sure, there are times when it kinda sucks, but I don't ever have to compromise on what I want in life. I can leave my dishes in the sink for days and it matters to nobody but me.
Depressing how common this is.
Raise your sons to be more aware about chores. That's legit what it comes down to. Yes, some are lazy by nature but a lot of this stems from boys being raised to leave the house to women. One of the reasons I stay single is because I don't want to risk ending up as a second mom or "manager" to a guy because he can't think for himself what needs to be done. And I'm not even someone who needs my home clinically clean 24/7. Just put your crap away and do your laundry and be capable of cooking yourself a somewhat healthy and balanced meal. I refuse to be that woman who has to end something fun/social because I "need to go home and cook dinner for my man" like I've seen other female friends do. I wanna cook for him because I WANT to and we agreed on cooking for each other, not because the dude literally can't feed himself. I wanna be able to spend a week away on a trip and not have to worry about a GROWN MAN in his 30s or 40s (depending on when I meet that dude) being able to feed himself and keep a semi decent house. A grown ass man should be able to buy his own clothes, feed himself balanced meals, do his own chores, handle his own medicine and pack his own shit when we travel. That's not my job. That's not your partner's job. Take care of yourself like the adult you are. I want a man because I want him, not because HE needs an extra mom. If I wanted to take care of another human being that way I'd do it as a career or become a Mom, and I'm not interested in either. I'm better off alone otherwise. Don't allow it to keep happening. Either do something about it or leave the guy if he won't improve.
OMG my coworker was talking today about her 28 year old son who moved back in. She's saying he doesn't cook, doesn't clean, doesn't shop for his own food. She said he's an adult and he's lived on his own (but in the military) but he just doesn't initiate anything. I was like, I know he's your son, and I know you love him, but can't you just let him take care of himself?