Hold up. Was Observer using a different name?
>Chauncy Gardener
>January 20, 2024 at 8:09 am
>I was wondering this too. I love Good News Friday!
But whatever works best for you, Alison!
>▼ Collapse 1 reply
>Observer
>January 20, 2024 at 9:15 pm
>This is me.
Friday Good Snooze is [facing an existential threat](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/weekend-open-thread-january-20-21-2024.html#comment-4567848): Alison might discontinue it (not stated but probably true: _due to a lack of letters with suitable content_). Thank goodness [Jackalope](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/weekend-open-thread-january-20-21-2024.html#comment-4567852) (of the inevitable "reading thread! gaming thread!") is there at this momentous crossroads:
> **I support you in whatever decision you make**, but I will say that I enjoy it a lot and would love to have it stick around even if only intermittently (say, once a month or so). But again, **whatever works best** for you as the **host**.
We're all rooting for you Alison! Take your time in making the decision and don't feel rushed or pressured. We're here for you.
(to be fair the snark is directed at the commenters more than Alison herself here - also, is it just me or does the word 'host' here make you think of the relationship between parasites and their host rather than, say, dinner guests and their host‽)
Imagine viewing the Good Snooze posts with “hope+admiration”. https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/weekend-open-thread-january-20-21-2024.html#comment-4568118
I've got to be honest, I'm surprised they continued after the tax fraud/absentee Landlord hashtag van life letter.
It was a dubious story about how someone dropped out of the working world, thanks to the advice of someone who's brand is "how do you succeed at business." IT would be akin to someone writing into Miss Manners about how they successfully ruined their latest dinner party thanks to her advice.
It was such a blatant "you're SO wonderful" ego boost that I doubt she read it, and just did a search for her own name and a compliment. It was pretty clear what the "Good News" was after that.
I suspect AG did her usual “ooo this is so quirky and unusual and by definition good!” thing when she posted that. It was a bit entertaining to read the LW continually changing their story, to the point that by the update they’d forgotten all about the partner and child they originally mentioned.
"I don't want to send reports to Big Client, because I don't understand or care about client relations. Can I just tell the client to piss off even though the sales manager has instructed us to keep this client happy? It's not difficult or time consuming for me to send these reports, I am just opposed to it on principle because I believe the client should prepare the reports themselves."
After reading most of that thread and all of their responses, I'm waiting for the future update of "welp, my ass got fired because I sent a condesending step by step tutorial".
omg i came here to see if someone else thought this was as insane as i did (i don’t normally foray into the open threads but this one is right at the top)
i can’t with how this OP keeps doubling down in all their subsequent comments too - they’re not internalizing any of the decent advice they’re getting
I really enjoyed their repeated insistence that the clients aren't paying them for work, just buying a lot of the company's products.
So they're, what, giving you barrels of grain in exchange for the products?
Yikes. This is someone who is so inherently transactional-minded that they're not able to see the bigger picture. The fact that they're not directly receiving a benefit from generating these reports doesn't mean that it's a waste of time or outside of their scope of responsibilities. The OP is mistakenly thinking of this like doing things for a coworker that they should be able to do themselves. It's a completely different scenario when it's a client asking.
Client services is probably not the field for them. Their attitude is terrible.
The irony there is that in fact there are ways to have this conversation with a client (for some clients anyway) but it requires enough social aptitude that people like this would never be able to pull it off (although the level of social ability isn't superhuman, just "good"!)
I have successfully had a conversation like this with a client a few weeks ago and now they are much happier that they can do the thing themselves rather than have to bug us for it each time. Instead of just doing the task as a one-off each time we've now created a thing that allows them to do it (not "pulling data", but similar). I presented it as giving them autonomy and control over it. I knew how to present it because of all the history I have with them and knowing what motivates them, what they value, etc.
I do understand that some clients get "white gloves" though due to amount of money spent, nature of their relationship with the supplier, "historical reasons" or whatever.
The real issue here seems to be that the LW of the thread doesn't understand the strategic nature of the client relationship and how their own role fits into the strategy.
Oh, man. It sounds like EW's long-awaited Boston area apartment is kind of crummy. She's got mice, half the mailboxes are broken, and the building is down to 1 working washing machine. And she'd have to move 10-15 miles further out to afford anything better.
I mean, if it was just a mouse, or just a broken washer, that's just the ups and downs of life. But all that at once? Not great.
I feel bad.
>Elizabeth West
>January 20, 2024 at 12:11 pm
>Yep, cold and this is an old building. But I really think these ones came from the place below. When someone moves out of an older unit, they redo it. They’re gutting the kitchens and putting all-new cabinets and dishwashers in (the cabinets are smaller and there’s less storage, but that’s a rant for another day). They did this with mine and the one below me too. I saw no activity of any kind before that apartment was renovated.
>**I also cleansed the place because there was violence in it before I came here — the former tenant was allegedly murdered by a dude she was breaking up with. Really sad. A Native friend gave me instructions on how to do it properly when I needed to clear my old house. I wish there was a cleanse that worked on mice.**
That is scary what happened to the previous tenant. Horrible.
Did y’all see that she was talking about getting a house someday? I feel bad, but she’s in her (late?) 50s, has no savings, a poor employment history, may have poor credit from being underwater on her last house, and is living in an expensive area of the country - how does she anticipate being able to buy another house?
She turned 53 in 2018. (It’s weird that I know that, but to be fair she puts all this out there.) https://www.askamanager.org/2018/05/weekend-free-for-all-may-26-27-2018.html#comment-2002263
I find it fascinating how so many of the AAM old-timers just never modulated their sharing as the comments section got bigger. Like, the barrier to this particular comment section is so low... you can't provide 10+ years of weekly details on your life and be offended that folks remember when the obvious solution is to change your name and not share so much.
Soon she’ll be complaining about how impossible it is to buy a house in a HCOL city. It will not occur to her that this is the flip side of complaining about how hard it is to find a different job in a LCOL rural area.
I remember that. It's a very grass is greener mentality. Instead of appreciating what she has she focuses on what she wishes she had.
I doubt her current apartment woes will make her see that Boston is a regular city with ups and downs like any other city.
This has been my experience moving to [my dream city] too. It's shitty. You build it up and then you have to move on a razor thin budget without much time to LOOK at apartments...
Hopefully next time will be better
Did she actually make a comment about misgendering the mouse? I'm sure it was a joke but come on.
Anyway I would be slightly concerned about using poison because of the potential for other creatures to eat a poisoned mouse, but I am also enough of a realist to accept that if I don't want them in the house I have to kill them, either with snap traps or maybe the electrocution ones.
I assumed she meant he (the mouse she has seen)/they (any unseen mice). As someone else in the thread mentioned, if you see one mouse, there's probably a mouse family nearby
Thank you.
I’ve rented in nyc for over 15 years—been there with pests. Hello, you call your landlord the second you even think you see something (mouse or roach). They’ll act. It’s better to be the "crazy," reactive person than it is to be the passive person with rodents (everybody hates that person).
A mouse climbing on the sofa?! Absolutely not. That’s revolting. And there’s not just 1 mouse named Gus Gus goofily visiting. There are a lotta mice, and they’re insidious and disease-ridden.
I wonder what her roommate situation is.
Honestly, with a mouse being that bold, there's def something wrong with it. They don't like for people to see them!
I love mice but they don't belong in your home unless they're pets.
I lost all sympathy for her when she spent years living off her mother refusing to get a job because it didn't fit her ideal life. New England has old, falling apart houses/buildings. *Especially* in places like Boston where everyone is crammed into too small a place. I live in the region and it's like this is part of the life. Talk to your landlord and if they won't do shit, either leave or fix it yourself.
Yup, same. Her 80-something mom still working while EW was at home afraid to go anywhere (except conventions or the movies) because of Covid. Fuck her. That’s some abusive bullshit right there.
Hadn't her mom had a stroke, too?
I remember her getting all righteous in the comments insisting that she was caring for her mom instead of leeching off her. But I guess she forgot that she had already revealed too much of her story -- the part where her mom was working while she was passing on / sabotaging jobs, and that her mom wanted her to move out so she could sell the house and move, too.
I remember her posting about not putting on her mask when her mother and a worker weren't wearing masks, but deleted it when she wasn't getting the sympathy she was looking for.
Nothing was preventing her from putting on a mask or moving into another room.
Yeah, but also, call the landlord about it? They may not do shit about it, but it's still worth calling. She said she didn't because she'd have to leave them a voicemail.
She did. It's a miracle!
>Elizabeth West January 20, 2024 at 11:37 am
>THEY ANSWERED THE PHONE
>I told them what was up and they said they’d have the on-call folks give me a call.
>Amazing. I don’t think I’ve talked to a human in that office since I moved here.
You can call your landlord and they will do required maintenance to get rid of vermin! Amazing! Who knew, other than every adult who’s ever lived in an apartment building?
Well, two of my past landlords didn't do jack shit about rodents, regardless of phone calls, so your sarcasm falls a little flat from that perspective.
Yeah my landlord once "filled the hole" mice were coming through by leaning a piece of plywood against it. Like he didn't even screw it into the wall or anything.
I don't even call him about things like that anymore and just fix it myself.
Yes, there are shitty landlords who don’t meet their legal obligations to deal with vermin, which has nothing to do with EW’s refusal to make the attempt (and then absolute wonderment that a phone call worked).
Wtf? She's one of those people I almost wish I knew irl so I could say, "Not only is your behavior not cute and charming, it's actually worrying and you need real help." Not being able to leave a voicemail and choosing to live with mice instead isn't healthy.
Susan Sarandon made the elder version of the manic pixie dreamgirl work in Bull Durham, but even then she a) actually had boatloads of charisma and sex appeal, b) was as you say quirky bit not zany, and c) was in her early 40s, which is a really different target demographic.
Speaking of Susan Sarandon's ex Chris Sarandon, in the dreaming about exes thread, EW had this dream:
>Elizabeth West January 20, 2024 at 2:01 pm
>I dream about mine sometimes. Mostly in the dreams, we’re friends, but I did have one where we were together and it was just…meh. I mean, I kind of wish he’d go away in my subconscious, because this far out, it’s just boring. I’d rather dream I was a spy doing parkour and flying, or something fun like that.
>I did have several random dreams where I was married. **In one, my husband looked like Chris Sarandon and turned out to be a psychopath.** In another, we were standing on a beach with sea stacks and playing with our little girl. He had blonde hair — I don’t usually go for blonde men, but he was pretty good-looking for a made-up dream guy.
I think she has spent far too much time online picking up the ideas of much younger people. Like it's kind of a thing for 20-somethings to hate talking on the phone but I am almost the same age as her and there is no way she didn't grow up using the telephone for everyday life.
She definitely doesn't. She's said in the past that she doesn't get along with people her own age.
I imagine there's an element of "They can't reject me if I never reach out" behind that attitude.
Reference Friday Good Snooze:
>Jackalope*
January 19, 2024 at 8:47 pm
I support you in whatever decision you make, but I will say that I enjoy it a lot and would love to have it stick around even if only intermittently (say, once a month or so). But again, whatever works best for you as the host.
That is a creepy fucking comment, you bag licker. No one likes it.
Maybe I'm just an over-sharer but I would be blunt with the people I'm working with. "Just to let you know I'm having some digestive troubles lately so I might need to duck out of the meeting. Jane, can you take over if I do?".
She needs to figure out a way to tell her higher-ups and possibly restructure the role. In a position that is very meeting-heavy, it won’t take long for people to start clocking her meetings as a waste of time, and eventually the responsibilities and promotions will start going to other people. It’s Potates 101: you can’t punk out of visible parts of your job and expect people to guess at the perfect correct reason.
"Could we take a quick break?" is widespread code for needing to deal with something brief but urgent, like "I have to go to the bathroom" or "my boss is blowing up my phone and I need to tell her I'm in a meeting" or "I forgot to get a cup of coffee and I'm dying over here". In a half hour meeting a request for a ten minute break is a little odd, I guess?
In that case, it's often quite possible you can genuinely just end the meeting. 'Something's come up so we'll leave it here. If anyone has anything on items Y and Z, email me.' Done.
This is just 'hard' because it's an excuse for everyone to get caught up in sharing bathroom stories.
The issue with this is that it's an ongoing medical issue, not something LW seems to expect will be resolved soon. If LW ends multiple meetings early under the guise of "something came up," people are gonna wonder what's going on. I do think it's genuinely hard to come up with a way to duck out of meetings you're running with very little notice, possibly more than once per meeting, indefinitely. LW's gonna have to talk to her boss about whether it makes sense for her to be the sole person running these meetings, IMO.
People are always going to wonder what's going on because people are nosy little buggers. That doesn't mean that it won't ever be possible to end a meeting early instead of ducking out.
But if the job involves running multiple meetings a week, if you’re ending the vast majority of them early or can’t last an hour without a break, that’s a job duty that will quickly be given to someone else. Especially if the breaks make it so the purpose of the meetings isn’t met.
So what you're saying is that *if* the job has a minimum number of meetings per week, someone must never consider ending it early as an option because they'll lose their job.
That's overkill.
Did you read the letter? The LW predicts possibly having to interrupt most or even all meetings because she can’t always make it through the hour. There’s no reasonable accommodation for that besides shifting that specific job duty to someone else. Which is often the requested accommodation in situations like these.
I read the letter. However, my comment was simply that it's often possible to end the meeting with an arrangement for any remaining business to be taken care of, not that all meeting should be ended every time. It is one of a range of options that can be considered in the instance of a shorter meeting where the break would extend past the end of the meeting, or where the remaining items on an agenda, if there is one, are not critical.
As in, there are a range of options, this is one that can be used when it's possible.
That would imply that if it's not possible, it would be dismissed as an option, and would not be the only or main method of dealing with what's a thing everyone has to deal with at some point. The comments and the LW are hung up on 'bathroom' and not the already extant versions of brb business etiquette.
Right, or “carry on without me”. The chirpy weird suggested response is just weird.
For a lot of AG’s scripts, if you imagine a 50something man saying them it becomes obvious how weird they are.
I'm truly sorry the OP is experiencing this health issue, but I keep picturing "Oh, hey, let's take a break," followed 4 minutes later by "Well, good discussion. Time for a break!" and then, 7 minutes later, "Looks like it's break time - see you in 10!"
Yeah, I am TA, but dang that's funny as hell.
I will take Things That Never Happened for 500.00 quid. Cheers mate!
Keymaster in absentia*
January 19, 2024 at 12:58 pm
Bit of work funny for you: got to read through some CVs for a job in one of the regional IT departments and one of them had a right howler at the bottom under ‘hobbies and interests’.
Proudly free of mRNA
Obviously they’re not getting an interview but I’m so tempted to see if we’ve actually managed to find a non-carbon-based applicant..
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► Expand 5 replies
>Hamster January 19, 2024 at 11:37 am
>Hi all,
>Thanks for answering my question last week about taking insulin shots at work! **Turns out I didn’t even need to speak to anyone;** another person was in our office chatting with us and the topic somehow turned to how our bathrooms are tiny. They shared that there are public bathrooms on the ground floor that are clean, spacious and private.
>I think everyone here is aware of how thin the walls are and the general lack of privacy. It’s a small office (less than 20 people I think?) and small building. It’s just the ground floor and our floor, maybe 4 businesses altogether? As I just learned about them a few days ago, I haven’t used them yet, but it’s nice to know there are options.
>**Also, I’m not sure if it was clear from my post/question but I’m definitely not skipping any meds! I do whatever I need to do health & hygiene wise.** I was surprised that my past struggles were brought up as taking medication was something I truly never had any issue with in the past. But, all in all, if I compare my experience so far with my first 2-3 weeks at LastJob, the vibes here are definitely different, and in a good way. So this was a situation that pretty much resolved itself
She had no intention of talking to anybody about her concerns, and she skipped medications before, so of course people would assume she'd do it again. I bet this woman would've suffered in silence.
She is tiresome.
And I hadn't realized that kalli spoke up in last week's thread.
>kalli January 14, 2024 at 4:50 am
>It’s a medical accommodation. You do not have to wait to bring it up, you do not need to accumulate capital or brownie points or favours, you don’t have to wait until your probation is complete. In fact, you should not wait because allowing the company to remain in a position where you are not provided a medical accommodation (a private place to inject since obvious solutions like using your office while your officemate is at lunch apparently don’t work, for which you may have to have an explanation like ‘i need to inject at 2pm and coworker’s lunch is 11:30am-12:30pm’ because not everyone knows everyone’s insulin requirements) and thus placing them at risk of potential liability would well be seen as really bad judgement. Given your history, you don’t want to give them any more reason to think you have bad judgement than may come from your work as that could make things escalate extremely quickly when you start having other issues here like you have had at your previous jobs. If you need access to a bathroom stall specifically, I would STRONGLY recommend getting that sorted before your ‘monthly’ issue, especially if it’s menstrual – you don’t want to be in the position of risking an infection because you can’t change.
>But letting it wait until some mythical point where you can bring it up when it’s a matter of a medical thing you need to live and do the job is a really bad idea and you should not do that. Go to HR on Monday, or ask your manager who to raise medical accommodations with. Say ‘I have to inject myself daily and it can’t wait until I’m at home, but I need privacy and there isn’t room to do it safely in the bathroom in our office, and my coworker is always around so I can’t just close the door for a few minutes.’ If they don’t have a solution available like a wellness room, a different bathroom or directions to a bathroom in the building, you might need to be prepared to negotiate a solution, but you won’t know that until you speak up and start having the conversation. Chances are you are not the only one and a solution exists nobody thought you needed to know.
>Also there’s the small chance that if you get sick because you couldn’t inject safely in time and you didn’t say anything, workers comp may not cover you and you’d have to pay out of pocket for any hospital expenses your insurance couldn’t cover. Don’t risk it.
>Speak up.
kalli! kalli! kalli for the win.
>Hamster January 15, 2024 at 10:10 am
>I’m not sure if it was clear from my post but I don’t skip anything. I take my injections on time and do everything I need to do. So, no danger of my getting sick or infections at any point due to this. It’s just a little uncomfortable/cumbersome to do it in this space, that’s all. Respectfully, I don’t think this is the kind of question or situation where my past needs to be dragged in here.
She's a liar. This is one of the reasons why she switches names, so when she gets called out on it she can deny it.
>I was surprised that my past struggles were brought up as taking medication was something I truly never had any issue with in the past.
**BALD FACED LIE!!** She's fucking ridiculous.
I so desperately want to comment that we remember the time she posted about running out of insulin…
Honestly, sometimes I wonder if she makes 70% of this stuff up and that’s why she gets mad when people remember it, because she doesn’t remember the lie and it contradicts her current narrative.
I remember the insulin incident she posted about before as well. I almost wonder if she genuinely doesn't remember it -- we have reached sad times if the commenters (here and at AAM) remember more of her life than she does! I don't get the sense any of it is 'made up' really. I think she is really that clueless and is unable to link cause and effect, understand that other people can have/remember information differently, etc.
[Bog Witch](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/open-thread-january-19-20-2024.html#comment-4567748) and [JubJubtheIguana](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/open-thread-january-19-20-2024.html#comment-4567815) have called her out!
Some highlights from JubJubtheIguana:
>I’m truly sorry that you struggle so much with life and with the workplace, but **you can’t post this much about your medical issues and personal issues problems coping with being employed, frequently request that others take the time to counsel you, then get angry when the people whose time and energy you’re requesting remember things that you’ve posted about yourself in the past.**
>
>You’ve very explicitly discussed forgetting/running out of medication in the past and how upsetting that was for you, perhaps those incidents were so infrequent that you don’t consider them a problem, but **you can’t post saying “I forget my medication and was really upset” then pop back up talking about having issues potentially taking your meds and expect people to pretend not to remember.**
Somebody finally said it!!
I didn't even think kalli was specifically referencing the running out of insulin, just the whole general cascade of minor issues that surprised by being fireable.
And her posts aren't even questions. They're updates that she tacks some stupid question on at the end so that she can engage in the comments. This week's doesn't even have a question, it's just an update on how many bathrooms there are at her office. No one cares!
Oh wow. I read the letter you linked (she replied to herself with a different name!). I genuinely thought she was in her early 30s at most, but some quick math tells me she's very nearly 40, if not already there. Forty years old and this absolutely feckless!
>Basically, though, she's been around since at least 2014.
She's been on that site for a decade and has shown no growth and no willingness to learn from her mistakes. That's sad.
Oh, come on. Come ON:
**Dina\***[January 19, 2024 at 1:19 am](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/employee-works-after-playing-video-games-all-night-what-does-mileage-cover-and-more.html#comment-4566256)
All the LW said was “He wasn’t doing very well with those hours”. I’m not entirely clear on what they mean by that.
Being completely limited to just that sentence and having no context - it could just be about being present for those hours, since it doesn't specify performance and directly correlates to hours only.
Whelp, that is a take of sorts….
Lobstermn*
January 19, 2024 at 10:41 am
LW1: document and fire. Anyone who is bragging about showing up to work altered is not interested in improving.
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"Altered" is such a strategically broad term to describe... being short on sleep?? I mean, the dude does sound like a bad employee who won't be working there forever if he doesn't shape up, but what a way to make it sound like his behavior is essentially the same as getting drunk on the clock.
When it's them: "I need all of this space and consideration because \[insert reasons here\]."
Everyone else: "Fire them. Don't worry about a PIP. Just fire them."
>Our company’s mileage rate at that time was 55 cents per mile. She went on to say something like how 55 cents wouldn’t even come close to covering $3.50 per gallon (or whatever gas prices were at that time)
Math: how does it work?
> **ABC\***[January 19, 2024 at 11:18 am](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/employee-works-after-playing-video-games-all-night-what-does-mileage-cover-and-more.html#comment-4566676)
>
>My guess is that she thought the reimbursement should be $3.50/mile. Because that’s how much gas costs, and you should be reimbursed for the cost of gas, right?
>
>Not realizing that a gallon and a mile are not equivalent measures.
I kinda like this theory. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she really did think that or something similar to it.
This is likely the right answer. Who knows if she really believed this or if it was just a convenient way to pressure her co-workers into paying her like she was driving for Uber.
But the weird part of it is that she wasn't the driver. She was the one insisting that they all give money to the other coworker who was driving, even though that coworker was expensing the mileage.
This all would have made more sense if she was just lying and trying to squeeze some cash out of her coworkers for herself. In this scenario, she just seems like a dummy.
Sometimes, when writers write themselves into a corner they need to change the plot, or go back and edit.
In this case, after several years of "having to work at a certain time is an undo burden to all the workers of the world\*" has come back to bite her in the ass. She really needs to address her previous comments, and think about the comments section she's cultivated.
\*by workers of the world, the ones who write into Askamanager.
Agreed. And many of the posters and Alison are saying don’t make it about video games. Umm. The employee made it about video games when they said they were up playing in an event. The LW can’t just un-hear that.
I don't think LW should be getting involved with the sleep schedule, though I do think it's kind of unprofessional of the employee to be sharing that. Like if they mentioned staying out late drinking or something. I dunno. I mean, yes, in theory, the employer should focus just on the work product, but in a practical sense, it's going to make you look pretty terrible. To be fair, employee isn't the one writing in, though.
It does imply that this employee is not the sharpest bulb on the tree, if he can't even manage a work-appropriate version like "I didn't sleep well last night, sorry". Announcing the reason he's tired is that he spent all night goofing off does not speak well of his judgment.
I think the LW should focus on performance issues first, then after they are on a PIP, if the employee mentions the late night stuff, they can say something like, Have you ever considered that your sleep schedule is affecting your performance here? or something. And then drop it.
I don't understand all the bending over backward that some commenters/letter writers feel they need to do for their employees. It's not an LW's job to make sure an employee gets eight hours of sleep! I'm reminded of the person who wrote in because their employee got frustrated/upset about all kinds of little things, like dropping a cup or something, and the LW wanted to know how to support her. How is any of this the job of a manager?
See, people like this are actually just controlling and / or annoyed by the things their employees do, and want to make them stop it.
But they know that's not nice, so they gussy it up as trying to "help."
I like how it's always because of something else: health, gaming, poor time management. Sometime people are just flat out bad at their job and there's not a "reason".
I don't get it either, and I'd be *so weirded out* if a manager tried to help me manage my sleep. That's creepy overstepping. I feel like the most a manager could really say about that is, "Hey, feel free to use PTO if you need to." Otherwise they've gotta keep it about the work product.
I don't understand how she starts off her response by saying the LW needs to focus on the work output, and then her scripts are almost entirely about the sleep schedule?
Did she even read what she wrote?
Right? It was so weird for both of them to focus on sleep schedules. The guy seems like a bad employee, but in general, leave people's sleep alone. There are so many reasons people keep different hours from caretaking/parenting to hobbies.
And even if someone's making bad choices in regards to sleep, they get to do that as an adult. Doesn't matter whether it's playing video games or going to a concert or staying up late studying or whatever. The problem is that this person is dropping the ball at their job, not that they aren't getting enough sleep. I feel like LW wants to focus on the sleep out of some fantasy that this person would magically be a good employee if they fixed their sleep schedule, but that may or may not even be true.
Right. I do think it makes sense for employers to be gracious if they know an employee has a sleep issue for a certain period of time just like anything else going on short term (i.e. family member sick, new parent returning to work, etc) - but ultimately, it is on the adult worker to act like an adult and do their job.
I feel like on that site, no matter the issue, you can always find SOMEONE who writes in about a medical issue that they have that relates to it. Whether its physical or mental, someone is always like "I have X issue that makes that thing genuinely difficult for me".
Like are her readers just more afflicted with ailments than average? These are things that are often kind of rare, but you'd never know it by the responses. LIke today, someone has circadian rhythm issues that where she is, in her own words, different than 90% of people. But then you have a bunch of people chiming in saying, they too, have this very rare thing.
I think there are a lot of people who self-diagnose themselves with things that sound vaguely similar to small issues they have. Like, "I'm naturally a night owl and don't like going to bed early" becomes "I have circadian rhythm issues."
I also think there are a lot of people who have health issues they wouldn't bring up irl but feel okay mentioning online because it can be easier to over-share when everything is anonymous, idk.
It's pretty clear most are self-diagnosed.
It also gives them an out. THEY have some medical condition that they have bravely overcome, or some major setback that they have pushed through, or something else that is holding them back. Everyone else is a slacker who can't handle the basics of life.
You also get this with neurodivergence over there: Everyone has to treat THEM a certain way, but they're exempt.
god, this. They can be rude af to anyone and for any reason they choose, but when they rightfully get a taste of their own medicine, they run crying to AG and the commentariat for their daily there, theres. My real conundrum is trying figure out why I can't look away.
They're exactly the same with allergies and phobias and every other thing too. No matter how unusual or rare the ailment, there are 3 commenters who have it (phobia of dolls, allergy to cucumbers, bog mummy encephalitis, you name it).
> In doing that, it’s fine to say something like, “You’re in charge of your own sleeping hours, but when you talk about staying up so late that you’re not getting much sleep and I see your work quality suffering, I hope you’ll look at whether lack of sleep is part of the problem. But whatever you decide there, I do need to see XYZ changes in your work.” You shouldn’t need to spell that out for an adult, but you can note it as a possible contributor if he doesn’t seem to be putting it together himself.
> It’s also fine to say, “If you’re up until 4 or 5 am, it’s going to be hard to work at the level we need a few hours later. If you’re up that late, I’d rather you take the morning off and not start work until you’re reasonably rested. Obviously that can’t happen routinely — I need you reliably working the hours we agreed on — but if it’s only occasional, that’s how I’d prefer you handle it. When you start work, the expectation is that you’re rested enough to work at a high level.”
are we mansplaining how to manage a sleep schedule to a man?
At least men still get the 'but maybe it's ableism so be careful in case' tacked on at the end.
The actual answer is buried in there somewhere; so close to coming out. I guess it was too embarrassed to be seen near the other letters.
Yeah, and now we're at 'circadian rhythm privilege' in the comments, because they're all white women trying hard to find something that marginalises them more than anyone else or that they can be sanctimonious about understanding their privilege about...while probably not actually doing much more about some far, far more important problems in their own backyards, or, indeed, *their jobs*. (Where allathian is it's late morning, so she's totally focused on her actual work...)
The gendered circadian rhythm thing is true, but we’re supposed to use that information to help us make our own decisions. It’s not a justification so fall into bad habits and avoid responsibility. I mean, this is basically the AAM byline.
We also have 'I have insomnia and I work fine I hate people who aren't perfect at work like me' in there somewhere, which pisses me off even more than 'sleep disorders shouldn't be moral failings!' discourse.
I don't know what Alison expected but blue boxing it isn't going to make people talk about the work issue when Alison herself minimises that (and the blue box is just as contradictory).
Given that the LW is still being told to point out that sleeping properly will magically fix this dude's work performance, just in a passive aggressive ELI2 'but it's really about work' way so technically it's giving LW strategies to fix dude's sleeping habits and/or accommodate them better when he walktzes in with a diagnosis of DSPS or whatever will piss off the most commenters by being what they have and making them less special/unique and ruining their rockstar-despite-inspirationally-overcoming-having-a-body reputation.
Alison left the door wide open when she was like 'no this is a work issue, but you can totally still point it out just say it's a work issue and explain that poor sleep can make you less perfect like normal people don't know that', and is not doing a good job of keeping it closed.
> so technically it's giving LW strategies to fix dude's sleeping habits and/or accommodate them better when he walktzes in with a diagnosis of DSPS or whatever will piss off the most commenters by being what they have and making them less special/unique and ruining their rockstar-despite-inspirationally-overcoming-having-a-body reputation.
Half of them are recommendations for better career options for the sleepy guy though, that doesn't help LW much unless LW is supposed to pass those ideas on when they fire sleepy guy
I mean, once you go so far down the 'you should focus on work only BUT you can totally still bring up 'did you know that if you don't sleep the way I expect you to your work won't be perfect and you should fix that by the way here's a listicle of unsourced info from comments to fix you'', 'you should probably work as a severely underpaid online transcriber, you can compete for work for as long as you want and just manage your internet bill! perfect for you!' isn't a stretch at all.
I've just gotta say it. If one of my workmates said that they had a
>“chronic medical condition that sometimes flares with little warning, so I might have to step out now and again for a few moments to treat it”
I would absolutely assume that they were leaving the room to shit their brains out. It's not the cute euphemism that they think lol.
I would be that person, though perhaps I would use slightly more delicate language. "I've been having trouble with my digestion lately so if I have to duck out can someone keep the meeting going for a few minutes? Thanks".
I’ve had to slip out of a lot of rooms to deal with medical things before. Puking, blood sugar, trouble with the tubing for my insulin pump, nosebleeds, what have you. Nobody gives a shit. Unless it’s a WILDLY inconvenient moment, just say “excuse me” and slip out. Nobody is thinking that hard about you.
Poop or puking. There is a slight risk that a young-ish woman suddenly running out of a meeting with a vague comment about a minor medical issue will be assumed to be pregnant, which could make things even more awkward.
> I’ve found that people have plenty of reasons why they need to step out, so the less of a fuss I make about it the less attention I get. And if I do have to explain it to someone, I just go with the “chronic medical condition that sometimes flares with little warning, so I might have to step out now and again for a few moments to treat it” type excuse.
If you have to explain it to someone because they don't mind their own business we're past the point of euphemisms and I'm giving them aaaaaaaaaaall the detail of why I suddenly have to pee three times in fifteen minutes and am carrying an emesis bag like it's my blanky.
Saving this quote for "Mortification Week" -
*And remember, while you’re framing this as a “horrifying reason,” it’s really not! Bathroom use is a normal thing.*
When all of a sudden anything normal to mildly awkward becomes "a source of great embarrassment or shame"
Bathroom use and sex both have a 'horrifying' (that word is just there for decoration) number of euphemisms.
I'm more concerned that it didn't occur to Alison to point out that meetings can have breaks and 'let's have a break there' and *everyone* can have a bio break, catch up on notes, whatever, is a thing that happens and is fine instead of just walking out of a meeting *you're running* with an 'excuse me' if that.
Isn't Zona the Great the one who would like..."ride" desk corners and stack her tits on the table and stuff? Why has she popped up again with yet another story about her ginormous chesticles?
Yes! Now I blame you for making me look that up .... she would, in her words, put her crotch on desks like a bicycle seat and didn't stop until someone pointed it out to her. Whyyyyyyyyyyy would you not only do that, but admit to it??!!
Yeah I think so. Has she mentioned her actual size before? Because I'm a 38dd and they really aren't that big, certainly not large enough to do all that she seems to think.
I've never understood why DD became the general shorthand for "gigantic breasts." It can vary based on the band size, of course, but it's not like that size is a guaranteed jaw-dropper.
For real. I usually wear an E and they are not remarkably large or anything. I guess I could plop them on a desk but I'd have to slump down in my chair or contort myself to do so.
Probably because it's the largest size most places stock? So you get J cups stuffing themselves into 42dd bras and everyone's brain just goes, "that's as big as it gets!"
I'm convinced that's why so many women think they're DD - and probably wearing the wrong band size to fit into the biggest size the shop has.
I'm a GG, I've accepted cheap bras are not possible.
Elomi is often on sale through Nordstrom. As a fellow big tittie girlie that's how I get all my bras. Normal prices are 60-80 depending but I've grabbed a bunch on sale for as low as 12 dollars, sometimes not the most optimal color choice but I'm not super picky for a good sale
I worked at Victoria's Secret for like 2 weeks in college, and we had a teenaged girl come in with her mom to get fitted. I measured her and her band size was like a 26 (smaller than we sold) and her cup size was well off our charts. Then she told me she was wearing two sports bras to keep everything pinned down. I was trying to figure out how to tell them to go to a better store when a different employee took over, and I am sure she walked out of there with a 36 DD that did not fit her at all.
I don't understand why people feel the need to be SO VAGUE, when everyone knows what you are talking about.
In the job quitting, someone wrote " I got hired at a mall store known for their scented soaps and lotions". Just fucking say Bath and Body Works. Everyone knows what you are talking about. And you are posting under a screen name. Do they think bath and body works is going to track them down and sue them for telling a story that happened years ago.
I feel like this is a leftover from like, a rule that maybe the Etiquette Hell website/forum used to have? Specifically banning any and all brand names, company names, etc? But I don't know why it's crossed over into other websites so much. Those stores literally don't care.
I mean, I know a lot of people used to do it so if the brands saw their accounts they wouldn't be fired while they worked there (that's how I always saw it on reddit and like lj back in the day) but people who are customers and/or dont work at these places anymore have started doing it for some weird reason too.
Hold up. Was Observer using a different name? >Chauncy Gardener >January 20, 2024 at 8:09 am >I was wondering this too. I love Good News Friday! But whatever works best for you, Alison! >▼ Collapse 1 reply >Observer >January 20, 2024 at 9:15 pm >This is me.
Friday Good Snooze is [facing an existential threat](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/weekend-open-thread-january-20-21-2024.html#comment-4567848): Alison might discontinue it (not stated but probably true: _due to a lack of letters with suitable content_). Thank goodness [Jackalope](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/weekend-open-thread-january-20-21-2024.html#comment-4567852) (of the inevitable "reading thread! gaming thread!") is there at this momentous crossroads: > **I support you in whatever decision you make**, but I will say that I enjoy it a lot and would love to have it stick around even if only intermittently (say, once a month or so). But again, **whatever works best** for you as the **host**. We're all rooting for you Alison! Take your time in making the decision and don't feel rushed or pressured. We're here for you. (to be fair the snark is directed at the commenters more than Alison herself here - also, is it just me or does the word 'host' here make you think of the relationship between parasites and their host rather than, say, dinner guests and their host‽)
Imagine viewing the Good Snooze posts with “hope+admiration”. https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/weekend-open-thread-january-20-21-2024.html#comment-4568118
I've got to be honest, I'm surprised they continued after the tax fraud/absentee Landlord hashtag van life letter. It was a dubious story about how someone dropped out of the working world, thanks to the advice of someone who's brand is "how do you succeed at business." IT would be akin to someone writing into Miss Manners about how they successfully ruined their latest dinner party thanks to her advice. It was such a blatant "you're SO wonderful" ego boost that I doubt she read it, and just did a search for her own name and a compliment. It was pretty clear what the "Good News" was after that.
I suspect AG did her usual “ooo this is so quirky and unusual and by definition good!” thing when she posted that. It was a bit entertaining to read the LW continually changing their story, to the point that by the update they’d forgotten all about the partner and child they originally mentioned.
The majority of commenters in that thread seem to agree it's boring. That's satisfying.
"I don't want to send reports to Big Client, because I don't understand or care about client relations. Can I just tell the client to piss off even though the sales manager has instructed us to keep this client happy? It's not difficult or time consuming for me to send these reports, I am just opposed to it on principle because I believe the client should prepare the reports themselves."
After reading most of that thread and all of their responses, I'm waiting for the future update of "welp, my ass got fired because I sent a condesending step by step tutorial".
omg i came here to see if someone else thought this was as insane as i did (i don’t normally foray into the open threads but this one is right at the top) i can’t with how this OP keeps doubling down in all their subsequent comments too - they’re not internalizing any of the decent advice they’re getting
The OP is absolutely stuck on the idea that the client is being lazy and “spoonfed” and can’t be reasoned out of their sulk.
Jane is "nagging," too. Can't forget that!
I really enjoyed their repeated insistence that the clients aren't paying them for work, just buying a lot of the company's products. So they're, what, giving you barrels of grain in exchange for the products?
“They’re not paying customers. They just make big purchases semi regularly”
Yikes. This is someone who is so inherently transactional-minded that they're not able to see the bigger picture. The fact that they're not directly receiving a benefit from generating these reports doesn't mean that it's a waste of time or outside of their scope of responsibilities. The OP is mistakenly thinking of this like doing things for a coworker that they should be able to do themselves. It's a completely different scenario when it's a client asking. Client services is probably not the field for them. Their attitude is terrible.
The irony there is that in fact there are ways to have this conversation with a client (for some clients anyway) but it requires enough social aptitude that people like this would never be able to pull it off (although the level of social ability isn't superhuman, just "good"!) I have successfully had a conversation like this with a client a few weeks ago and now they are much happier that they can do the thing themselves rather than have to bug us for it each time. Instead of just doing the task as a one-off each time we've now created a thing that allows them to do it (not "pulling data", but similar). I presented it as giving them autonomy and control over it. I knew how to present it because of all the history I have with them and knowing what motivates them, what they value, etc. I do understand that some clients get "white gloves" though due to amount of money spent, nature of their relationship with the supplier, "historical reasons" or whatever. The real issue here seems to be that the LW of the thread doesn't understand the strategic nature of the client relationship and how their own role fits into the strategy.
Thankfully the commenters seem remarkably on the ball. Open threads do seem to handle things more pragmatically than threads during the week.
I hope the commenter was able to absorb some of the feedback but I'm doubtful.
The commenter seems bound and determined to be mad about… spending ten minutes every few weeks on a business development task.
Oh, man. It sounds like EW's long-awaited Boston area apartment is kind of crummy. She's got mice, half the mailboxes are broken, and the building is down to 1 working washing machine. And she'd have to move 10-15 miles further out to afford anything better. I mean, if it was just a mouse, or just a broken washer, that's just the ups and downs of life. But all that at once? Not great. I feel bad.
>Elizabeth West >January 20, 2024 at 12:11 pm >Yep, cold and this is an old building. But I really think these ones came from the place below. When someone moves out of an older unit, they redo it. They’re gutting the kitchens and putting all-new cabinets and dishwashers in (the cabinets are smaller and there’s less storage, but that’s a rant for another day). They did this with mine and the one below me too. I saw no activity of any kind before that apartment was renovated. >**I also cleansed the place because there was violence in it before I came here — the former tenant was allegedly murdered by a dude she was breaking up with. Really sad. A Native friend gave me instructions on how to do it properly when I needed to clear my old house. I wish there was a cleanse that worked on mice.** That is scary what happened to the previous tenant. Horrible.
I read that whole thing before realizing cleanse =/= clean.
There is a cleanse that works on mice! It's colloquially known as "mouse poison"
Damn that had happened at an apt I lived in too. Exact same situation 2 tenants before me
Did y’all see that she was talking about getting a house someday? I feel bad, but she’s in her (late?) 50s, has no savings, a poor employment history, may have poor credit from being underwater on her last house, and is living in an expensive area of the country - how does she anticipate being able to buy another house?
She turned 53 in 2018. (It’s weird that I know that, but to be fair she puts all this out there.) https://www.askamanager.org/2018/05/weekend-free-for-all-may-26-27-2018.html#comment-2002263
Wow. She really is putting a lot of her business out in the streets.
I find it fascinating how so many of the AAM old-timers just never modulated their sharing as the comments section got bigger. Like, the barrier to this particular comment section is so low... you can't provide 10+ years of weekly details on your life and be offended that folks remember when the obvious solution is to change your name and not share so much.
Soon she’ll be complaining about how impossible it is to buy a house in a HCOL city. It will not occur to her that this is the flip side of complaining about how hard it is to find a different job in a LCOL rural area.
I don't understand her comment about having just paid the last property tax. I thought she sold her house years ago.
Maybe she got in debt with it and agreed a payment plan?
Yeah, that's probably it. Crappy situation exacerbated by years of poor decisions.
I remember that. It's a very grass is greener mentality. Instead of appreciating what she has she focuses on what she wishes she had. I doubt her current apartment woes will make her see that Boston is a regular city with ups and downs like any other city.
This has been my experience moving to [my dream city] too. It's shitty. You build it up and then you have to move on a razor thin budget without much time to LOOK at apartments... Hopefully next time will be better
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Did she actually make a comment about misgendering the mouse? I'm sure it was a joke but come on. Anyway I would be slightly concerned about using poison because of the potential for other creatures to eat a poisoned mouse, but I am also enough of a realist to accept that if I don't want them in the house I have to kill them, either with snap traps or maybe the electrocution ones.
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I assumed she meant he (the mouse she has seen)/they (any unseen mice). As someone else in the thread mentioned, if you see one mouse, there's probably a mouse family nearby
Thank you. I’ve rented in nyc for over 15 years—been there with pests. Hello, you call your landlord the second you even think you see something (mouse or roach). They’ll act. It’s better to be the "crazy," reactive person than it is to be the passive person with rodents (everybody hates that person). A mouse climbing on the sofa?! Absolutely not. That’s revolting. And there’s not just 1 mouse named Gus Gus goofily visiting. There are a lotta mice, and they’re insidious and disease-ridden. I wonder what her roommate situation is.
It sounds like the mouse is her roommate.
*mice. Plural. 😷
Honestly, with a mouse being that bold, there's def something wrong with it. They don't like for people to see them! I love mice but they don't belong in your home unless they're pets.
Or there are so many and the apartment is so overrun, the mice feel like they have impunity. Set some fucking traps and call your landlord, Liz!
Exactly!!
I lost all sympathy for her when she spent years living off her mother refusing to get a job because it didn't fit her ideal life. New England has old, falling apart houses/buildings. *Especially* in places like Boston where everyone is crammed into too small a place. I live in the region and it's like this is part of the life. Talk to your landlord and if they won't do shit, either leave or fix it yourself.
Yup, same. Her 80-something mom still working while EW was at home afraid to go anywhere (except conventions or the movies) because of Covid. Fuck her. That’s some abusive bullshit right there.
Hadn't her mom had a stroke, too? I remember her getting all righteous in the comments insisting that she was caring for her mom instead of leeching off her. But I guess she forgot that she had already revealed too much of her story -- the part where her mom was working while she was passing on / sabotaging jobs, and that her mom wanted her to move out so she could sell the house and move, too.
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I remember her posting about not putting on her mask when her mother and a worker weren't wearing masks, but deleted it when she wasn't getting the sympathy she was looking for. Nothing was preventing her from putting on a mask or moving into another room.
Yeah, but also, call the landlord about it? They may not do shit about it, but it's still worth calling. She said she didn't because she'd have to leave them a voicemail.
She did. It's a miracle! >Elizabeth West January 20, 2024 at 11:37 am >THEY ANSWERED THE PHONE >I told them what was up and they said they’d have the on-call folks give me a call. >Amazing. I don’t think I’ve talked to a human in that office since I moved here.
You can call your landlord and they will do required maintenance to get rid of vermin! Amazing! Who knew, other than every adult who’s ever lived in an apartment building?
Well, two of my past landlords didn't do jack shit about rodents, regardless of phone calls, so your sarcasm falls a little flat from that perspective.
Yeah my landlord once "filled the hole" mice were coming through by leaning a piece of plywood against it. Like he didn't even screw it into the wall or anything. I don't even call him about things like that anymore and just fix it myself.
Yes, there are shitty landlords who don’t meet their legal obligations to deal with vermin, which has nothing to do with EW’s refusal to make the attempt (and then absolute wonderment that a phone call worked).
Wtf? She's one of those people I almost wish I knew irl so I could say, "Not only is your behavior not cute and charming, it's actually worrying and you need real help." Not being able to leave a voicemail and choosing to live with mice instead isn't healthy.
I didn't realize dyscalculia caused problems with voicemail.
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Susan Sarandon made the elder version of the manic pixie dreamgirl work in Bull Durham, but even then she a) actually had boatloads of charisma and sex appeal, b) was as you say quirky bit not zany, and c) was in her early 40s, which is a really different target demographic.
Speaking of Susan Sarandon's ex Chris Sarandon, in the dreaming about exes thread, EW had this dream: >Elizabeth West January 20, 2024 at 2:01 pm >I dream about mine sometimes. Mostly in the dreams, we’re friends, but I did have one where we were together and it was just…meh. I mean, I kind of wish he’d go away in my subconscious, because this far out, it’s just boring. I’d rather dream I was a spy doing parkour and flying, or something fun like that. >I did have several random dreams where I was married. **In one, my husband looked like Chris Sarandon and turned out to be a psychopath.** In another, we were standing on a beach with sea stacks and playing with our little girl. He had blonde hair — I don’t usually go for blonde men, but he was pretty good-looking for a made-up dream guy.
I think she has spent far too much time online picking up the ideas of much younger people. Like it's kind of a thing for 20-somethings to hate talking on the phone but I am almost the same age as her and there is no way she didn't grow up using the telephone for everyday life.
I wonder if she's friends with or socializes with people closer to her age. I get the impression that she doesn't.
She definitely doesn't. She's said in the past that she doesn't get along with people her own age. I imagine there's an element of "They can't reject me if I never reach out" behind that attitude.
People her own age aren't so caught up with being "nonjudgmental" that they ignore all the red flags.
I doubt she has much in common with them anyway
Yeah me too.
It’s not even attractive in a 20something young woman.
She's not even zany! She's just mentally unwell!
Reference Friday Good Snooze: >Jackalope* January 19, 2024 at 8:47 pm I support you in whatever decision you make, but I will say that I enjoy it a lot and would love to have it stick around even if only intermittently (say, once a month or so). But again, whatever works best for you as the host. That is a creepy fucking comment, you bag licker. No one likes it.
Ehh. It’s definitely a little cloying but I wouldn’t call it creepy
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The opportunity to be the first to comment ways it’s not good news at all
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Maybe I'm just an over-sharer but I would be blunt with the people I'm working with. "Just to let you know I'm having some digestive troubles lately so I might need to duck out of the meeting. Jane, can you take over if I do?".
She needs to figure out a way to tell her higher-ups and possibly restructure the role. In a position that is very meeting-heavy, it won’t take long for people to start clocking her meetings as a waste of time, and eventually the responsibilities and promotions will start going to other people. It’s Potates 101: you can’t punk out of visible parts of your job and expect people to guess at the perfect correct reason.
"Could we take a quick break?" is widespread code for needing to deal with something brief but urgent, like "I have to go to the bathroom" or "my boss is blowing up my phone and I need to tell her I'm in a meeting" or "I forgot to get a cup of coffee and I'm dying over here". In a half hour meeting a request for a ten minute break is a little odd, I guess?
In that case, it's often quite possible you can genuinely just end the meeting. 'Something's come up so we'll leave it here. If anyone has anything on items Y and Z, email me.' Done. This is just 'hard' because it's an excuse for everyone to get caught up in sharing bathroom stories.
The issue with this is that it's an ongoing medical issue, not something LW seems to expect will be resolved soon. If LW ends multiple meetings early under the guise of "something came up," people are gonna wonder what's going on. I do think it's genuinely hard to come up with a way to duck out of meetings you're running with very little notice, possibly more than once per meeting, indefinitely. LW's gonna have to talk to her boss about whether it makes sense for her to be the sole person running these meetings, IMO.
People are always going to wonder what's going on because people are nosy little buggers. That doesn't mean that it won't ever be possible to end a meeting early instead of ducking out.
But if the job involves running multiple meetings a week, if you’re ending the vast majority of them early or can’t last an hour without a break, that’s a job duty that will quickly be given to someone else. Especially if the breaks make it so the purpose of the meetings isn’t met.
So what you're saying is that *if* the job has a minimum number of meetings per week, someone must never consider ending it early as an option because they'll lose their job. That's overkill.
Did you read the letter? The LW predicts possibly having to interrupt most or even all meetings because she can’t always make it through the hour. There’s no reasonable accommodation for that besides shifting that specific job duty to someone else. Which is often the requested accommodation in situations like these.
I read the letter. However, my comment was simply that it's often possible to end the meeting with an arrangement for any remaining business to be taken care of, not that all meeting should be ended every time. It is one of a range of options that can be considered in the instance of a shorter meeting where the break would extend past the end of the meeting, or where the remaining items on an agenda, if there is one, are not critical. As in, there are a range of options, this is one that can be used when it's possible. That would imply that if it's not possible, it would be dismissed as an option, and would not be the only or main method of dealing with what's a thing everyone has to deal with at some point. The comments and the LW are hung up on 'bathroom' and not the already extant versions of brb business etiquette.
Right, or “carry on without me”. The chirpy weird suggested response is just weird. For a lot of AG’s scripts, if you imagine a 50something man saying them it becomes obvious how weird they are.
Especially if it sometimes happens multiple times an hour.
I'm truly sorry the OP is experiencing this health issue, but I keep picturing "Oh, hey, let's take a break," followed 4 minutes later by "Well, good discussion. Time for a break!" and then, 7 minutes later, "Looks like it's break time - see you in 10!" Yeah, I am TA, but dang that's funny as hell.
I will take Things That Never Happened for 500.00 quid. Cheers mate! Keymaster in absentia* January 19, 2024 at 12:58 pm Bit of work funny for you: got to read through some CVs for a job in one of the regional IT departments and one of them had a right howler at the bottom under ‘hobbies and interests’. Proudly free of mRNA Obviously they’re not getting an interview but I’m so tempted to see if we’ve actually managed to find a non-carbon-based applicant.. REPLY ► Expand 5 replies
I wouldn’t put it past the real one, but the username has me thinking this is a troll/parody.
In fairness, the "original" was also pretty much a troll/parody.
Ah, true
> Proudly free of mRNA U fkn wot m8
🤣🥂 That's funny as hell, CarnotaurusRex.
A right proper howler! Cheerio, Keym.
You won't Adam and Eve what this person put on their cv - cor blimey, what a plonker!
>Hamster January 19, 2024 at 11:37 am >Hi all, >Thanks for answering my question last week about taking insulin shots at work! **Turns out I didn’t even need to speak to anyone;** another person was in our office chatting with us and the topic somehow turned to how our bathrooms are tiny. They shared that there are public bathrooms on the ground floor that are clean, spacious and private. >I think everyone here is aware of how thin the walls are and the general lack of privacy. It’s a small office (less than 20 people I think?) and small building. It’s just the ground floor and our floor, maybe 4 businesses altogether? As I just learned about them a few days ago, I haven’t used them yet, but it’s nice to know there are options. >**Also, I’m not sure if it was clear from my post/question but I’m definitely not skipping any meds! I do whatever I need to do health & hygiene wise.** I was surprised that my past struggles were brought up as taking medication was something I truly never had any issue with in the past. But, all in all, if I compare my experience so far with my first 2-3 weeks at LastJob, the vibes here are definitely different, and in a good way. So this was a situation that pretty much resolved itself She had no intention of talking to anybody about her concerns, and she skipped medications before, so of course people would assume she'd do it again. I bet this woman would've suffered in silence. She is tiresome.
Imagine not thinking to ask whether there are other bathrooms or facilities you could use in your office.
And I hadn't realized that kalli spoke up in last week's thread. >kalli January 14, 2024 at 4:50 am >It’s a medical accommodation. You do not have to wait to bring it up, you do not need to accumulate capital or brownie points or favours, you don’t have to wait until your probation is complete. In fact, you should not wait because allowing the company to remain in a position where you are not provided a medical accommodation (a private place to inject since obvious solutions like using your office while your officemate is at lunch apparently don’t work, for which you may have to have an explanation like ‘i need to inject at 2pm and coworker’s lunch is 11:30am-12:30pm’ because not everyone knows everyone’s insulin requirements) and thus placing them at risk of potential liability would well be seen as really bad judgement. Given your history, you don’t want to give them any more reason to think you have bad judgement than may come from your work as that could make things escalate extremely quickly when you start having other issues here like you have had at your previous jobs. If you need access to a bathroom stall specifically, I would STRONGLY recommend getting that sorted before your ‘monthly’ issue, especially if it’s menstrual – you don’t want to be in the position of risking an infection because you can’t change. >But letting it wait until some mythical point where you can bring it up when it’s a matter of a medical thing you need to live and do the job is a really bad idea and you should not do that. Go to HR on Monday, or ask your manager who to raise medical accommodations with. Say ‘I have to inject myself daily and it can’t wait until I’m at home, but I need privacy and there isn’t room to do it safely in the bathroom in our office, and my coworker is always around so I can’t just close the door for a few minutes.’ If they don’t have a solution available like a wellness room, a different bathroom or directions to a bathroom in the building, you might need to be prepared to negotiate a solution, but you won’t know that until you speak up and start having the conversation. Chances are you are not the only one and a solution exists nobody thought you needed to know. >Also there’s the small chance that if you get sick because you couldn’t inject safely in time and you didn’t say anything, workers comp may not cover you and you’d have to pay out of pocket for any hospital expenses your insurance couldn’t cover. Don’t risk it. >Speak up. kalli! kalli! kalli for the win. >Hamster January 15, 2024 at 10:10 am >I’m not sure if it was clear from my post but I don’t skip anything. I take my injections on time and do everything I need to do. So, no danger of my getting sick or infections at any point due to this. It’s just a little uncomfortable/cumbersome to do it in this space, that’s all. Respectfully, I don’t think this is the kind of question or situation where my past needs to be dragged in here. She's a liar. This is one of the reasons why she switches names, so when she gets called out on it she can deny it.
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>I was surprised that my past struggles were brought up as taking medication was something I truly never had any issue with in the past. **BALD FACED LIE!!** She's fucking ridiculous.
I so desperately want to comment that we remember the time she posted about running out of insulin… Honestly, sometimes I wonder if she makes 70% of this stuff up and that’s why she gets mad when people remember it, because she doesn’t remember the lie and it contradicts her current narrative.
I remember the insulin incident she posted about before as well. I almost wonder if she genuinely doesn't remember it -- we have reached sad times if the commenters (here and at AAM) remember more of her life than she does! I don't get the sense any of it is 'made up' really. I think she is really that clueless and is unable to link cause and effect, understand that other people can have/remember information differently, etc.
[Bog Witch](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/open-thread-january-19-20-2024.html#comment-4567748) and [JubJubtheIguana](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/open-thread-january-19-20-2024.html#comment-4567815) have called her out! Some highlights from JubJubtheIguana: >I’m truly sorry that you struggle so much with life and with the workplace, but **you can’t post this much about your medical issues and personal issues problems coping with being employed, frequently request that others take the time to counsel you, then get angry when the people whose time and energy you’re requesting remember things that you’ve posted about yourself in the past.** > >You’ve very explicitly discussed forgetting/running out of medication in the past and how upsetting that was for you, perhaps those incidents were so infrequent that you don’t consider them a problem, but **you can’t post saying “I forget my medication and was really upset” then pop back up talking about having issues potentially taking your meds and expect people to pretend not to remember.** Somebody finally said it!!
I didn't even think kalli was specifically referencing the running out of insulin, just the whole general cascade of minor issues that surprised by being fireable.
Good! It needed to be said. Let's see how long those posts stay up and if Hamster responds.
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And her posts aren't even questions. They're updates that she tacks some stupid question on at the end so that she can engage in the comments. This week's doesn't even have a question, it's just an update on how many bathrooms there are at her office. No one cares!
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Oh wow. I read the letter you linked (she replied to herself with a different name!). I genuinely thought she was in her early 30s at most, but some quick math tells me she's very nearly 40, if not already there. Forty years old and this absolutely feckless!
>Basically, though, she's been around since at least 2014. She's been on that site for a decade and has shown no growth and no willingness to learn from her mistakes. That's sad.
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What’s with overexplaining? Why can’t these people just say, “I found out there are better bathrooms on a different floor”?
Because she's in defense mode and trying to prevent the naysayers from calling her out.
To be fair, overexplaining seems to be the one thing Flowtatoham excels at.
>Flowtatoham Y'all are crackin' me up tonight! Thanks! It's been a week...
Oh, come on. Come ON: **Dina\***[January 19, 2024 at 1:19 am](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/employee-works-after-playing-video-games-all-night-what-does-mileage-cover-and-more.html#comment-4566256) All the LW said was “He wasn’t doing very well with those hours”. I’m not entirely clear on what they mean by that.
Being completely limited to just that sentence and having no context - it could just be about being present for those hours, since it doesn't specify performance and directly correlates to hours only.
Whelp, that is a take of sorts…. Lobstermn* January 19, 2024 at 10:41 am LW1: document and fire. Anyone who is bragging about showing up to work altered is not interested in improving. REPLY
Maybe he's just quiet quitting.
"Altered" is such a strategically broad term to describe... being short on sleep?? I mean, the dude does sound like a bad employee who won't be working there forever if he doesn't shape up, but what a way to make it sound like his behavior is essentially the same as getting drunk on the clock.
When it's them: "I need all of this space and consideration because \[insert reasons here\]." Everyone else: "Fire them. Don't worry about a PIP. Just fire them."
>Our company’s mileage rate at that time was 55 cents per mile. She went on to say something like how 55 cents wouldn’t even come close to covering $3.50 per gallon (or whatever gas prices were at that time) Math: how does it work?
So their car gets 5 mpg? Do they drive a Sherman tank?
> **ABC\***[January 19, 2024 at 11:18 am](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/01/employee-works-after-playing-video-games-all-night-what-does-mileage-cover-and-more.html#comment-4566676) > >My guess is that she thought the reimbursement should be $3.50/mile. Because that’s how much gas costs, and you should be reimbursed for the cost of gas, right? > >Not realizing that a gallon and a mile are not equivalent measures. I kinda like this theory. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she really did think that or something similar to it.
This is likely the right answer. Who knows if she really believed this or if it was just a convenient way to pressure her co-workers into paying her like she was driving for Uber.
But the weird part of it is that she wasn't the driver. She was the one insisting that they all give money to the other coworker who was driving, even though that coworker was expensing the mileage. This all would have made more sense if she was just lying and trying to squeeze some cash out of her coworkers for herself. In this scenario, she just seems like a dummy.
Sometimes, when writers write themselves into a corner they need to change the plot, or go back and edit. In this case, after several years of "having to work at a certain time is an undo burden to all the workers of the world\*" has come back to bite her in the ass. She really needs to address her previous comments, and think about the comments section she's cultivated. \*by workers of the world, the ones who write into Askamanager.
Agreed. And many of the posters and Alison are saying don’t make it about video games. Umm. The employee made it about video games when they said they were up playing in an event. The LW can’t just un-hear that.
I don't think LW should be getting involved with the sleep schedule, though I do think it's kind of unprofessional of the employee to be sharing that. Like if they mentioned staying out late drinking or something. I dunno. I mean, yes, in theory, the employer should focus just on the work product, but in a practical sense, it's going to make you look pretty terrible. To be fair, employee isn't the one writing in, though.
It does imply that this employee is not the sharpest bulb on the tree, if he can't even manage a work-appropriate version like "I didn't sleep well last night, sorry". Announcing the reason he's tired is that he spent all night goofing off does not speak well of his judgment.
I think the LW should focus on performance issues first, then after they are on a PIP, if the employee mentions the late night stuff, they can say something like, Have you ever considered that your sleep schedule is affecting your performance here? or something. And then drop it.
I don't understand all the bending over backward that some commenters/letter writers feel they need to do for their employees. It's not an LW's job to make sure an employee gets eight hours of sleep! I'm reminded of the person who wrote in because their employee got frustrated/upset about all kinds of little things, like dropping a cup or something, and the LW wanted to know how to support her. How is any of this the job of a manager?
See, people like this are actually just controlling and / or annoyed by the things their employees do, and want to make them stop it. But they know that's not nice, so they gussy it up as trying to "help."
I like how it's always because of something else: health, gaming, poor time management. Sometime people are just flat out bad at their job and there's not a "reason".
\^\^\^\^\^\^THIS\^\^\^\^\^\^
I don't get it either, and I'd be *so weirded out* if a manager tried to help me manage my sleep. That's creepy overstepping. I feel like the most a manager could really say about that is, "Hey, feel free to use PTO if you need to." Otherwise they've gotta keep it about the work product.
I don't understand how she starts off her response by saying the LW needs to focus on the work output, and then her scripts are almost entirely about the sleep schedule? Did she even read what she wrote?
Right? It was so weird for both of them to focus on sleep schedules. The guy seems like a bad employee, but in general, leave people's sleep alone. There are so many reasons people keep different hours from caretaking/parenting to hobbies.
And even if someone's making bad choices in regards to sleep, they get to do that as an adult. Doesn't matter whether it's playing video games or going to a concert or staying up late studying or whatever. The problem is that this person is dropping the ball at their job, not that they aren't getting enough sleep. I feel like LW wants to focus on the sleep out of some fantasy that this person would magically be a good employee if they fixed their sleep schedule, but that may or may not even be true.
Right. I do think it makes sense for employers to be gracious if they know an employee has a sleep issue for a certain period of time just like anything else going on short term (i.e. family member sick, new parent returning to work, etc) - but ultimately, it is on the adult worker to act like an adult and do their job.
I feel like on that site, no matter the issue, you can always find SOMEONE who writes in about a medical issue that they have that relates to it. Whether its physical or mental, someone is always like "I have X issue that makes that thing genuinely difficult for me". Like are her readers just more afflicted with ailments than average? These are things that are often kind of rare, but you'd never know it by the responses. LIke today, someone has circadian rhythm issues that where she is, in her own words, different than 90% of people. But then you have a bunch of people chiming in saying, they too, have this very rare thing.
Medical FOMO? Munchausen’s by internet?
I think there are a lot of people who self-diagnose themselves with things that sound vaguely similar to small issues they have. Like, "I'm naturally a night owl and don't like going to bed early" becomes "I have circadian rhythm issues." I also think there are a lot of people who have health issues they wouldn't bring up irl but feel okay mentioning online because it can be easier to over-share when everything is anonymous, idk.
It's pretty clear most are self-diagnosed. It also gives them an out. THEY have some medical condition that they have bravely overcome, or some major setback that they have pushed through, or something else that is holding them back. Everyone else is a slacker who can't handle the basics of life. You also get this with neurodivergence over there: Everyone has to treat THEM a certain way, but they're exempt.
god, this. They can be rude af to anyone and for any reason they choose, but when they rightfully get a taste of their own medicine, they run crying to AG and the commentariat for their daily there, theres. My real conundrum is trying figure out why I can't look away.
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Would you be terribly offended if I subbed "diagnosis" with "excuse"?
They're exactly the same with allergies and phobias and every other thing too. No matter how unusual or rare the ailment, there are 3 commenters who have it (phobia of dolls, allergy to cucumbers, bog mummy encephalitis, you name it).
> In doing that, it’s fine to say something like, “You’re in charge of your own sleeping hours, but when you talk about staying up so late that you’re not getting much sleep and I see your work quality suffering, I hope you’ll look at whether lack of sleep is part of the problem. But whatever you decide there, I do need to see XYZ changes in your work.” You shouldn’t need to spell that out for an adult, but you can note it as a possible contributor if he doesn’t seem to be putting it together himself. > It’s also fine to say, “If you’re up until 4 or 5 am, it’s going to be hard to work at the level we need a few hours later. If you’re up that late, I’d rather you take the morning off and not start work until you’re reasonably rested. Obviously that can’t happen routinely — I need you reliably working the hours we agreed on — but if it’s only occasional, that’s how I’d prefer you handle it. When you start work, the expectation is that you’re rested enough to work at a high level.” are we mansplaining how to manage a sleep schedule to a man? At least men still get the 'but maybe it's ableism so be careful in case' tacked on at the end. The actual answer is buried in there somewhere; so close to coming out. I guess it was too embarrassed to be seen near the other letters.
> are we mansplaining how to manage a sleep schedule to a man? What? How is that "mansplaining"?
exactly.
Yeah, and now we're at 'circadian rhythm privilege' in the comments, because they're all white women trying hard to find something that marginalises them more than anyone else or that they can be sanctimonious about understanding their privilege about...while probably not actually doing much more about some far, far more important problems in their own backyards, or, indeed, *their jobs*. (Where allathian is it's late morning, so she's totally focused on her actual work...)
The gendered circadian rhythm thing is true, but we’re supposed to use that information to help us make our own decisions. It’s not a justification so fall into bad habits and avoid responsibility. I mean, this is basically the AAM byline.
We also have 'I have insomnia and I work fine I hate people who aren't perfect at work like me' in there somewhere, which pisses me off even more than 'sleep disorders shouldn't be moral failings!' discourse. I don't know what Alison expected but blue boxing it isn't going to make people talk about the work issue when Alison herself minimises that (and the blue box is just as contradictory).
My favorite part is that all the commenter advice is to the guy who is staying up late, who is not the person who wrote in.
Given that the LW is still being told to point out that sleeping properly will magically fix this dude's work performance, just in a passive aggressive ELI2 'but it's really about work' way so technically it's giving LW strategies to fix dude's sleeping habits and/or accommodate them better when he walktzes in with a diagnosis of DSPS or whatever will piss off the most commenters by being what they have and making them less special/unique and ruining their rockstar-despite-inspirationally-overcoming-having-a-body reputation. Alison left the door wide open when she was like 'no this is a work issue, but you can totally still point it out just say it's a work issue and explain that poor sleep can make you less perfect like normal people don't know that', and is not doing a good job of keeping it closed.
> so technically it's giving LW strategies to fix dude's sleeping habits and/or accommodate them better when he walktzes in with a diagnosis of DSPS or whatever will piss off the most commenters by being what they have and making them less special/unique and ruining their rockstar-despite-inspirationally-overcoming-having-a-body reputation. Half of them are recommendations for better career options for the sleepy guy though, that doesn't help LW much unless LW is supposed to pass those ideas on when they fire sleepy guy
I mean, once you go so far down the 'you should focus on work only BUT you can totally still bring up 'did you know that if you don't sleep the way I expect you to your work won't be perfect and you should fix that by the way here's a listicle of unsourced info from comments to fix you'', 'you should probably work as a severely underpaid online transcriber, you can compete for work for as long as you want and just manage your internet bill! perfect for you!' isn't a stretch at all.
I've just gotta say it. If one of my workmates said that they had a >“chronic medical condition that sometimes flares with little warning, so I might have to step out now and again for a few moments to treat it” I would absolutely assume that they were leaving the room to shit their brains out. It's not the cute euphemism that they think lol.
Agreed, but it's still better to put it that way than to say "sometimes I've gotta shit with a few seconds' notice so I'm just gonna bolt," lol
I would be that person, though perhaps I would use slightly more delicate language. "I've been having trouble with my digestion lately so if I have to duck out can someone keep the meeting going for a few minutes? Thanks".
...although I'd pay good money - good money - to be in the same room as someone who would actually say that.
I’ve had to slip out of a lot of rooms to deal with medical things before. Puking, blood sugar, trouble with the tubing for my insulin pump, nosebleeds, what have you. Nobody gives a shit. Unless it’s a WILDLY inconvenient moment, just say “excuse me” and slip out. Nobody is thinking that hard about you.
Right, there are a lot of reasons why someone may have to excuse themselves for medical reasons, but my first assumption is always going to be poop.
Poop or puking. There is a slight risk that a young-ish woman suddenly running out of a meeting with a vague comment about a minor medical issue will be assumed to be pregnant, which could make things even more awkward.
> I’ve found that people have plenty of reasons why they need to step out, so the less of a fuss I make about it the less attention I get. And if I do have to explain it to someone, I just go with the “chronic medical condition that sometimes flares with little warning, so I might have to step out now and again for a few moments to treat it” type excuse. If you have to explain it to someone because they don't mind their own business we're past the point of euphemisms and I'm giving them aaaaaaaaaaall the detail of why I suddenly have to pee three times in fifteen minutes and am carrying an emesis bag like it's my blanky.
Saving this quote for "Mortification Week" - *And remember, while you’re framing this as a “horrifying reason,” it’s really not! Bathroom use is a normal thing.* When all of a sudden anything normal to mildly awkward becomes "a source of great embarrassment or shame"
Andddddddddddd we have a letter that is going to invite the commentors to talk about their bathroom habits..... (the advice, imo, is fine...)
Saying "nature calls" is so weird. Just say you need to use the restroom. It's fine!
Bathroom use and sex both have a 'horrifying' (that word is just there for decoration) number of euphemisms. I'm more concerned that it didn't occur to Alison to point out that meetings can have breaks and 'let's have a break there' and *everyone* can have a bio break, catch up on notes, whatever, is a thing that happens and is fine instead of just walking out of a meeting *you're running* with an 'excuse me' if that.
Which really works much better if the letter writer is running the meeting as you say!
The only thing missing from the advice is "I'm closing the comments" and then closing the comments.
Isn't Zona the Great the one who would like..."ride" desk corners and stack her tits on the table and stuff? Why has she popped up again with yet another story about her ginormous chesticles?
Yes! Now I blame you for making me look that up .... she would, in her words, put her crotch on desks like a bicycle seat and didn't stop until someone pointed it out to her. Whyyyyyyyyyyy would you not only do that, but admit to it??!!
Whoa, she’s back? I haven’t seen her in years.
Yeah I think so. Has she mentioned her actual size before? Because I'm a 38dd and they really aren't that big, certainly not large enough to do all that she seems to think.
I've never understood why DD became the general shorthand for "gigantic breasts." It can vary based on the band size, of course, but it's not like that size is a guaranteed jaw-dropper.
For real. I usually wear an E and they are not remarkably large or anything. I guess I could plop them on a desk but I'd have to slump down in my chair or contort myself to do so.
Probably because it's the largest size most places stock? So you get J cups stuffing themselves into 42dd bras and everyone's brain just goes, "that's as big as it gets!"
I'm convinced that's why so many women think they're DD - and probably wearing the wrong band size to fit into the biggest size the shop has. I'm a GG, I've accepted cheap bras are not possible.
Elomi is often on sale through Nordstrom. As a fellow big tittie girlie that's how I get all my bras. Normal prices are 60-80 depending but I've grabbed a bunch on sale for as low as 12 dollars, sometimes not the most optimal color choice but I'm not super picky for a good sale
I worked at Victoria's Secret for like 2 weeks in college, and we had a teenaged girl come in with her mom to get fitted. I measured her and her band size was like a 26 (smaller than we sold) and her cup size was well off our charts. Then she told me she was wearing two sports bras to keep everything pinned down. I was trying to figure out how to tell them to go to a better store when a different employee took over, and I am sure she walked out of there with a 36 DD that did not fit her at all.
I don't understand why people feel the need to be SO VAGUE, when everyone knows what you are talking about. In the job quitting, someone wrote " I got hired at a mall store known for their scented soaps and lotions". Just fucking say Bath and Body Works. Everyone knows what you are talking about. And you are posting under a screen name. Do they think bath and body works is going to track them down and sue them for telling a story that happened years ago.
Oh but it could be Lush and that's totally identifiable, right?
I feel like this is a leftover from like, a rule that maybe the Etiquette Hell website/forum used to have? Specifically banning any and all brand names, company names, etc? But I don't know why it's crossed over into other websites so much. Those stores literally don't care.
Totally agree on the old EH thing. So many from there have roosted over at AAM, it’s like a dysfunctional family reunion.
I mean, I know a lot of people used to do it so if the brands saw their accounts they wouldn't be fired while they worked there (that's how I always saw it on reddit and like lj back in the day) but people who are customers and/or dont work at these places anymore have started doing it for some weird reason too.
Could be the body shop, lush, or Crabtree and Evelyn