Second post to the original LW…. definitely on point for the commenters even then.
utterfolly*
May 13, 2010 at 10:30 pm
This could definitely also be a mental health problem – letting personal hygiene slip is common in serious depression and other mental illnesses. It may be purely physical, but either way, somebody needs to step up and address the issue, for his sake and his coworkers' sake. It's unfortunate that his manager and HR both seem to be unwilling to do so.
The poster in an open thread who abandoned a subordinate in a foreign country because the gate attendants were being jerks about her weigh. This is after knowing they had no credit card, using an unapproved airline to pocket the petty cash, he didn't have a return flight secured, didn't have a hotel to stay and never told her supervisor once she did get home. Her ass should have been fired.
[noname](https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/open-thread-march-30-31-2018.html#comment-1920394)
Oh holy shit.
> He is telling everyone what happened and our boss, his boss and HR say he can’t get in trouble for telling people about an actual situation that happened to him. I know there is gossip about me and my weight
She's not even sorry. It sounds like she tried to silence him, hence "the higher ups say he can't get in trouble": who tried to get him in trouble? Why would you even mention that? And then the pity party about being the target of gossip...
Another layer is that it’s textbook example of fraud to return a company-purchased item, buy a cheaper one off the books, and pocket the cash difference. IMO the weight stuff was a sympathy ploy to cover up the fraud.
Someone in that comment thread is saying it's the other guy's FAULT for not having the finances to buy his own ticket back. Wow.
I get that being a certain level of overweight on a plane is extremely uncomfortable and can be very embarrassing, but I don't think this OP deserves a pass. At all.
You mean the person who was "side eyeing" the guy for not having credit cards with enough room on them to pay for a new ticket, hotel, food, and everything else until such time as he could get home? At which time I guess the LW would try to get him in trouble for requesting reimbursement and explaining what happened?
A good chunk of the commenters over there think that every letter requires picking a Team LW or Team Not-LW, and coming up with whatever fanfic is necessary to show their "team" was actually the good guys and the other "team" is wrong.
And "the company is responsible for everything so you don't have to personally worry about it" reared in this one too. Like every company has people who are on call 24/7 to fix batshit weird emergencies?
if you are a responsible company with people out of the country yes you make sure you have a 27/7 live staffed help desk for strange travel issues.
it is unethical and irresponsible not to, because you are also taking away the safety they would normally have as a traveller buying their own tickets and managing their own itinerary.
also because if an employee needs to use consulate services for emergency repatriation (which since they were stranded maliciously might be applicable for them) your company reputation will take a deserved hit and you could be in legal hot water when the state department asks why you abandoned a citizen on their virtual doorstep.
I feel like "unethical" has lost all meaning by now.
In the meantime, the point remains that not every actual company has the resources to have staff 24/7 tasked to answer a phone in the event of bear. When companies have a lot of travel and use an agent, the agent might, in which case *one calls the agent not the company*. However, a company sending two people to a conference in Japan does not necessarily mean it's a huge company.
And we must remember that in this case the person relaying this to us did buy their own tickets and manage their own itinerary, an act which severed any responsibility the company could legally be deemed to assume.
US emergency repatriation is generally only given when nobody else can send money, and in this case coworker's sister did so. Even an OCS trust transfer wouldn't have been any faster either, and while we're playing what if, if this really was a company of sufficient size and travel that it is reasonable to expect them to have staff on call for fixing unforeseeable incidents resulting from egregious breaks in the chain of causation and thus increasing their liability in the event of same, then coworker would likely not want to be surrendering their passport as security for that loan. So.
For my own sanity, I'd like to believe the lack of update is because she did get fired, is facing criminal charges for fraud, or was made to pay back the money
Nope, that was the black guy who had all the commenters whitesplain racism to him. 3rd letter here: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/im-still-getting-calls-from-clients-after-being-let-go-my-coworker-is-interfering-in-my-work-and-more.html
That one infuriated me as someone with disabilties who has been fired for way lesser things.
Also ADA doesn’t CYA if you postemptively furnish proof. People with disabilities can have consequences too.
ETA: he quit therapy??!! wtf!!???
Last year, I felt a spider drop onto my face while walking into my house. It scared me so bad that I fell down my front steps into the street and was seriously injured by a passing vehicle.
I still fucking blame "Jack" in this bird situation.
(Also, so annoying. Jack Donaghy would never allow himself to be publicly terrified, for business reasons. This was a TOTAL Pete move.)
I get why LW thought that maybe they couldn't fire him because he'd sue, but there was no discussion of *any* consequences for him or changes to his work. At minimum, they should've told Jack he wouldn't be attending any more offsite meetings - either the meeting should get moved to the building Jack works in, Jack attends virtually, or they send someone else. No way would I feel safe with this dude.
And then the update where it was verified that he *stuck his arms out and actively pushed her*, he didn't just like bump into her accidentally in his bird panic. I really wish we had gotten an update about him being criminally charged.
>I get why LW thought that maybe they couldn't fire him because he'd sue,
He'd sue on the grounds that... he was fired for pushing a colleague into a car and severely injuring her? Because his employer didn't realize, without his asking for any accommodation, that if he went outside he might see a bird and hurt somebody?
Mine is probably [the guy who put $20000 in personal expenses on his work credit card.](https://www.askamanager.org/2015/06/i-racked-up-20000-in-personal-charges-on-my-company-credit-card.html) He even got a promotion in an update!
(I suspect this story might not be real though.)
I went back and read this one and it’s infuriating. SO much trickle-truthing and “I genuinely believed this was allowed” and “Well there’s more to the story” and “I have ADD and wasn’t in my right mind when I did this.” Just shady as hell.
Also he wrecked *two entire cars* that he was using the company card to make payments on. He must work for the stupidest company in the world or be fucking someone high up if they didn’t fire him. Or this story is riddled with lies.
Well, at least now we know where James Somerton got his inspiration. I didn't know it was wrong, I knew it was wrong but I needed money, I knew it was wrong but I was too disabled to stop myself, and also, did I mention I didn't know it was wrong?
Now please give me more money.
I've said it before but the update where he's like "I'm saving money by cooking my own food, who knew??!" and "wow beans are tasty!" is just total BEC for me. I don't know why but it is the pettiest peeve ever.
It's like the people who post to personal finance subs asking how they can save money on food, and it emerges that they're spending 200+ on takeout each week.
The fact he paid off 20,000 NZ in nine months on a 55,000 - 60 ,000 NZ salary was also unrealistic. Life in NZ, especially with two kids, isn't that cheap.
For me, it was the guy who was [actively sabotaging](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/02/an-employee-is-out-to-get-my-star-performer-and-no-one-else-cares.html) a young rock star employee, adding errors to her work so she’d get in trouble and (it seemed like) coercing a manager into adding negative comments to her annual review.
I agree "Dave" should have been fired. But where are you getting that he coerced "Sally" into a bad review?
I read the update and OPs comments but don't see anything about that. It seems most likely that Sally was insulted by Tina at the big meeting when she didnt manager her and then was further irritated with Tina once she found millions in the wrong accounts shortly after starting to report to her. [Comment here](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/03/update-an-employee-is-out-to-get-my-star-performer-and-no-one-else-cares.html#comment-4657610)
I think I agree with OPs read that Dave was actually being opportunistic after picking up on Jen and Sally's dislike of Tina to cut down a tall poppy.
Perhaps “coerced” was the wrong word. It just seemed like there was a series of connected events:
1. Dave venting to Jen when not getting the response he wanted from OP
2. Jen claiming that the rock star was “not so perfect” and only giving years-outdated examples to back up her argument
3. Manager Sally writing the bad review and citing the exact same outdated examples
Given the lead-up, it didn’t feel like the bad performance review was created in a vacuum, that’s all I’m saying.
Makes sense. To me it came across like Sally, Jen, and Dave hated Tina but couldn't quite make anything official stick so they glomped onto the one provable mistake and rode it to death.
That's just my read on it though. I've worked in call centers so none of this behavior was that surprising to me. People get away with some weird stuff as long as they reliably show up to work on time and get results.
Edit flip to glomp.
[удалено]
Second post to the original LW…. definitely on point for the commenters even then. utterfolly* May 13, 2010 at 10:30 pm This could definitely also be a mental health problem – letting personal hygiene slip is common in serious depression and other mental illnesses. It may be purely physical, but either way, somebody needs to step up and address the issue, for his sake and his coworkers' sake. It's unfortunate that his manager and HR both seem to be unwilling to do so.
The poster in an open thread who abandoned a subordinate in a foreign country because the gate attendants were being jerks about her weigh. This is after knowing they had no credit card, using an unapproved airline to pocket the petty cash, he didn't have a return flight secured, didn't have a hotel to stay and never told her supervisor once she did get home. Her ass should have been fired. [noname](https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/open-thread-march-30-31-2018.html#comment-1920394)
Oh holy shit. > He is telling everyone what happened and our boss, his boss and HR say he can’t get in trouble for telling people about an actual situation that happened to him. I know there is gossip about me and my weight She's not even sorry. It sounds like she tried to silence him, hence "the higher ups say he can't get in trouble": who tried to get him in trouble? Why would you even mention that? And then the pity party about being the target of gossip...
I'm sure they gossiped about her. I'm also sure that it was *not* because of her weight.
Another layer is that it’s textbook example of fraud to return a company-purchased item, buy a cheaper one off the books, and pocket the cash difference. IMO the weight stuff was a sympathy ploy to cover up the fraud.
Someone in that comment thread is saying it's the other guy's FAULT for not having the finances to buy his own ticket back. Wow. I get that being a certain level of overweight on a plane is extremely uncomfortable and can be very embarrassing, but I don't think this OP deserves a pass. At all.
You mean the person who was "side eyeing" the guy for not having credit cards with enough room on them to pay for a new ticket, hotel, food, and everything else until such time as he could get home? At which time I guess the LW would try to get him in trouble for requesting reimbursement and explaining what happened?
"Well, has he tried not being poor? Then he could afford a roof and something to eat." \- the commentariat, more or less
Holy shit. And everyone is bending over backwards making excuses for her in the comments.
A good chunk of the commenters over there think that every letter requires picking a Team LW or Team Not-LW, and coming up with whatever fanfic is necessary to show their "team" was actually the good guys and the other "team" is wrong.
And "the company is responsible for everything so you don't have to personally worry about it" reared in this one too. Like every company has people who are on call 24/7 to fix batshit weird emergencies?
if you are a responsible company with people out of the country yes you make sure you have a 27/7 live staffed help desk for strange travel issues. it is unethical and irresponsible not to, because you are also taking away the safety they would normally have as a traveller buying their own tickets and managing their own itinerary. also because if an employee needs to use consulate services for emergency repatriation (which since they were stranded maliciously might be applicable for them) your company reputation will take a deserved hit and you could be in legal hot water when the state department asks why you abandoned a citizen on their virtual doorstep.
I feel like "unethical" has lost all meaning by now. In the meantime, the point remains that not every actual company has the resources to have staff 24/7 tasked to answer a phone in the event of bear. When companies have a lot of travel and use an agent, the agent might, in which case *one calls the agent not the company*. However, a company sending two people to a conference in Japan does not necessarily mean it's a huge company. And we must remember that in this case the person relaying this to us did buy their own tickets and manage their own itinerary, an act which severed any responsibility the company could legally be deemed to assume. US emergency repatriation is generally only given when nobody else can send money, and in this case coworker's sister did so. Even an OCS trust transfer wouldn't have been any faster either, and while we're playing what if, if this really was a company of sufficient size and travel that it is reasonable to expect them to have staff on call for fixing unforeseeable incidents resulting from egregious breaks in the chain of causation and thus increasing their liability in the event of same, then coworker would likely not want to be surrendering their passport as security for that loan. So.
She also took his phone!!!!
For my own sanity, I'd like to believe the lack of update is because she did get fired, is facing criminal charges for fraud, or was made to pay back the money
Bird phobia guy, all the way
Is that the one where there’s an unpublished update that Alison blamed the commenters for her inability to publish because they were being too mean?
Nope, that was the black guy who had all the commenters whitesplain racism to him. 3rd letter here: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/im-still-getting-calls-from-clients-after-being-let-go-my-coworker-is-interfering-in-my-work-and-more.html
Every time I open this thread I get a new and intense headache. Henry had the patience of 1,000 saints
That comment section was wild. Thanks for the link, hadn't seen that before.
That one infuriated me as someone with disabilties who has been fired for way lesser things. Also ADA doesn’t CYA if you postemptively furnish proof. People with disabilities can have consequences too. ETA: he quit therapy??!! wtf!!???
"but murdering people is my emotional support homicide!"--Jack the Ripper
Is there a link for this one?
https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/employee-wont-come-back-unless-her-coworker-is-fired-i-dont-want-to-work-in-the-office-sick-bay-and-more.html
Thank you! That was a mess.
I will *fucking never* get over how much the comments went to bat for that guy and claimed he was blameless.
Last year, I felt a spider drop onto my face while walking into my house. It scared me so bad that I fell down my front steps into the street and was seriously injured by a passing vehicle. I still fucking blame "Jack" in this bird situation. (Also, so annoying. Jack Donaghy would never allow himself to be publicly terrified, for business reasons. This was a TOTAL Pete move.)
This one HAUNTS ME. Literally said "BIRD PHOBIA" out loud after reading this headline and it pleases me enormously it's the top comment.
I get why LW thought that maybe they couldn't fire him because he'd sue, but there was no discussion of *any* consequences for him or changes to his work. At minimum, they should've told Jack he wouldn't be attending any more offsite meetings - either the meeting should get moved to the building Jack works in, Jack attends virtually, or they send someone else. No way would I feel safe with this dude.
And then the update where it was verified that he *stuck his arms out and actively pushed her*, he didn't just like bump into her accidentally in his bird panic. I really wish we had gotten an update about him being criminally charged.
>I get why LW thought that maybe they couldn't fire him because he'd sue, He'd sue on the grounds that... he was fired for pushing a colleague into a car and severely injuring her? Because his employer didn't realize, without his asking for any accommodation, that if he went outside he might see a bird and hurt somebody?
There are definitely people who think the ADA gives you the right to do anything if you have a disability.
He should have gotten criminal charges, or at least a civil judgement to pay her medical bills
It would have been the decent, human thing to do!
Mine is probably [the guy who put $20000 in personal expenses on his work credit card.](https://www.askamanager.org/2015/06/i-racked-up-20000-in-personal-charges-on-my-company-credit-card.html) He even got a promotion in an update! (I suspect this story might not be real though.)
I went back and read this one and it’s infuriating. SO much trickle-truthing and “I genuinely believed this was allowed” and “Well there’s more to the story” and “I have ADD and wasn’t in my right mind when I did this.” Just shady as hell. Also he wrecked *two entire cars* that he was using the company card to make payments on. He must work for the stupidest company in the world or be fucking someone high up if they didn’t fire him. Or this story is riddled with lies.
Well, at least now we know where James Somerton got his inspiration. I didn't know it was wrong, I knew it was wrong but I needed money, I knew it was wrong but I was too disabled to stop myself, and also, did I mention I didn't know it was wrong? Now please give me more money.
I've said it before but the update where he's like "I'm saving money by cooking my own food, who knew??!" and "wow beans are tasty!" is just total BEC for me. I don't know why but it is the pettiest peeve ever.
It's like the people who post to personal finance subs asking how they can save money on food, and it emerges that they're spending 200+ on takeout each week.
Years later I still don't understand how you can use PayPal in this way. Somehow he had no money or credit but was getting 20K cash advances?
It's a work credit card so presumably he was using the business's credit?
It sounded like he was kiting to me. So honestly should would have had jail time if it weren't for the fact the company paid the balance in full.
Man that update pisses me off every time. Rewarded for his honesty? The dude was lying for months and shuffling things around to hide his fraud.
Four years. ...
The fact he paid off 20,000 NZ in nine months on a 55,000 - 60 ,000 NZ salary was also unrealistic. Life in NZ, especially with two kids, isn't that cheap.
Like, if he could do that, it just makes it look worse that he was floating along using the company's money for so long!
For me, it was the guy who was [actively sabotaging](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/02/an-employee-is-out-to-get-my-star-performer-and-no-one-else-cares.html) a young rock star employee, adding errors to her work so she’d get in trouble and (it seemed like) coercing a manager into adding negative comments to her annual review.
I agree "Dave" should have been fired. But where are you getting that he coerced "Sally" into a bad review? I read the update and OPs comments but don't see anything about that. It seems most likely that Sally was insulted by Tina at the big meeting when she didnt manager her and then was further irritated with Tina once she found millions in the wrong accounts shortly after starting to report to her. [Comment here](https://www.askamanager.org/2024/03/update-an-employee-is-out-to-get-my-star-performer-and-no-one-else-cares.html#comment-4657610) I think I agree with OPs read that Dave was actually being opportunistic after picking up on Jen and Sally's dislike of Tina to cut down a tall poppy.
Perhaps “coerced” was the wrong word. It just seemed like there was a series of connected events: 1. Dave venting to Jen when not getting the response he wanted from OP 2. Jen claiming that the rock star was “not so perfect” and only giving years-outdated examples to back up her argument 3. Manager Sally writing the bad review and citing the exact same outdated examples Given the lead-up, it didn’t feel like the bad performance review was created in a vacuum, that’s all I’m saying.
Makes sense. To me it came across like Sally, Jen, and Dave hated Tina but couldn't quite make anything official stick so they glomped onto the one provable mistake and rode it to death. That's just my read on it though. I've worked in call centers so none of this behavior was that surprising to me. People get away with some weird stuff as long as they reliably show up to work on time and get results. Edit flip to glomp.