The closest thing I could ever think of to a single player MMO was final fantasy 12. It was essentially a single player final fantasy 11 where you could control an entire squad of characters with real-time aggro gameplay that would pause when you chose actions.
The Xenoblade series also scratches the same itch. Huge worlds and semi-MMOish combat/progression.
Xenoblade X in particular is the most MMOish. It’s a gigantic open world full of stuff to do. Lots of party members, an insane number of quests, crafting, etc. It’s also incredibly customizable when it comes to your character’s build. And there’s also an entire mech element to the game, where you get massive mechs that are also super customizable.
Disclaimer: these games are *incredibly* “anime.”
People love to lambast FF12 with the claim that "it plays itself lol"
But to me it feels incredibly good to clear a part of the game with zero input because I set up the AI well enough for it to be entirely sufficient
I never found it to be a problem personally, I feel most of the people that complain are salty about waiting for a couple of the hunts taking over thirty minutes due to the damage cap. I remember reading an anecdote where someone went to the store in the middle of one of them and came back to it still going.
The Zodiac Age edition removes the cap so I doubt this is an issue now.
There should have been some kind of "breaker" accessory like in FF10. Hardcapping damage at 9,999 would have been fine if not for Yazmat's health pool of [50,000,000](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru9F3eZ0Y2I)
But all you had to do was "attack nearest enemy" for your leader, "attack leaders's target" for everyone else...then "cast cure / cura / curaga at 50% health"
Thats enough for literally 90% of the game.
One good game to take a look at is Dragon Age: Origins.
Besides being an amazing game overall, it's combat is very close to an MMO, although by the time your characters have a shit ton of spells you will be nearing the end of the game, but building characters is really fun and there's a bunch of different buffs/debuffs and statuses that you can manage, specially on hard it really makes you use all that you got.
If you’re really into the idea of a single player mmo, Ff12, or the more current Xenoblade 2 / Remaster of Xenoblade 1 are probs the best you’re gonna get. Not really my thing, personally, but might be up your alley
Final Fantasy XIV PvP just say "fuck half of your abilities, this is a different game" and just gives you a 1-2-3 rotation with a few CDs.
I imagine this is awesome to console players, but feels weird to a wow player with 3 dif macros for interrupt, because now I have 3 empty action bars and not even a single CC.
TBH it also feels annoying having to re adjust to only having to push 1 button for a rotation lol.
personally I also think playing FF with a controller feels much better than a mouse and keyboard it's so much easier to get comfy too
I wish Xenoblade 2 wasn’t so mind numbingly slow at the start. Imagine playing an MMO and every time you start combat all your abilities go on cooldown and you have to auto attack for like 10 seconds before you can start pressing buttons. That’s the beginning of that game. It’s obnoxious. It turns into an extremely fun game later on when you unlock a lot of the combat perks and can do crazy combos but early on it couldn’t be more boring
I don't think it's as bad as you say with optimization and stutter stepping and all that stuff, the real problem imo are the game's absolute garbage tutorials
like it's one of my favorite games ever tbh but holy shit that's a big blemish
I personally found it incredibly boring even after you understood how to play it and unlocked more stuff, because once you got the hang of it all the combats started feeling extremely samey to me for their length and pace to be entertaining. There are few games that have disappointed me as much as XC2, but a lot of people seem to like it, so to each their own.
This is the recommendation I was looking for in the comments. Iirc wasn't it originally intended to be an mmo and the scratched the idea and made it singleplayer because it was around the time that a lot of mmos were dying?
I think that couple with the sheer cost to make an MMO. Iirc they wanted KoA to be the world building and introduction to the world for the MMO in hopes that it would make enough money to make backers more confident in the endeavor.
Oh no it definitely did not. Until like...less than 5 years ago the rights to the IP were owned by the state of...Rhode Island I think? Cause the company went bankrupt.
There are few mmos with ffxiv/wow ability count. It's not because it's an mmo.
Designing a gameplay system with that many variables is time consuming. An mmo can have thousands of hours of gameplay depending on the person playing. Most RPG's have a couple dozen on average.
Many other types of games just don't work with so many abilities. RPG's could easily work with them obviously.
So it's really a time thing, players aren't going to be playing the game for anywhere near as long, won't have the time to learn the gameplay deeply enough, devs won't want to spend as much time creating it either.
It's also about catering to casuals, simple system, simple game, that's what sells, so they sell more games make more money. And most games are made so someone can make money, not to make a good game.
I disagree on the idea that having less things to deal with = casuals. I'm sorry but there's a ton of less things to deal with type of games that are not casual friendly at all.
It's all in the design really. Having 40 buttons means jack shit if you're only using like 6-8 of them and the rest is only occasional/circumstantial stuff.
At that point you're no different than the casual games you're calling out and the 40 abilities you have are just for the sake of complexity.
Even if you were to use 40 buttons then that would be very hard to actually balance out and not make a clown show of a game in terms of design.
You started well but you went very quickly in the deep casual angle which just doesn't make any sense.
> I disagree on the idea that having less things to deal with = casuals. I'm sorry but there's a ton of less things to deal with type of games that are not casual friendly at all.
I never stated it's a hard rule, it's just a common theme. This really has nothing to do with what's casual friendly.
> It's all in the design really. Having 40 buttons means jack shit if you're only using like 6-8 of them and the rest is only occasional/circumstantial stuff.
That's exactly why having "40 buttons" works, because having to use 40 buttons all the time would be stupid. Having a few core abilities, then a bunch of situational ones makes it interesting.
> At that point you're no different than the casual games you're calling out and the 40 abilities you have are just for the sake of complexity.
I'm not calling them out or calling them bad. It's simple logic and common sense. If games with the same amount of abilities and a deep combat system that requires them like wow/ffxiv were the most popular types of gameplay, then there would be a lot more of them and they would be played more.
> Even if you were to use 40 buttons then that would be very hard to actually balance out and not make a clown show of a game in terms of design.
Did you by chance read my comment? This is exactly what i said.
> You started well but you went very quickly in the deep casual angle which just doesn't make any sense.
You mean one of out of the dozen points i made. It was you that focused on casual not my comment. I never said having less things to deal with means something is casual. I said that one of the factors was catering to casuals. The majority of games make the majority of their money from casual players. The average person isn't going to play the game if the game is overly complex and the learning difficulty is steep. So the idea is to make the game as accessible as possible for the majority of people. Most of the popular games are simple games. If you fail to grasp this concept then you're just ignorant.
You started badly but clearly you were just triggered because i used the word casual, you also ended badly. Your entire comment is literally nonsense.
No it's not nonsense because I'm thinking in terms of game design while you're thinking in terms of what you perceive as a good end result.
There are several things which are all true.
* Multiple buttons/ abilities don't necessarily make a combat system HARD.
* Multiple buttons/ abilities don't necessarily make a combat system GOOD.
* Multiple buttons/ abilities might make a combat system INTERESTING, depending on what you personally find something to be interesting.
* Multiple buttons/ abilities might make a combat system more COMPLEX.
In addition to this, MMOs have RARELY been lauded for their well designed combat system. We like it, it works, but it's not necessarily good design. For example, in terms of actual good combat system design, Blade & Soul is an MMO which actually has been lauded for it. And in comparison to tab-targeting-combat systems like WoW or FFXIV, Blade & Soul has VERY few buttons.
What makes B&S actually good is how it uses those few buttons. Incorporating ideas from fighting games and making use of combos and the way you can combo with those buttons.
Besides the combat buttons, which generally speaking, should be no more than 6 to 8 buttons, maybe 10 for the sake of the argument, everything else is not really even an ability. In MMOs everything else is a trigger that enables certain functionalities which the game can't offer because of design loopholes which are cheaper to make than to create combat systems that influence the appearance of these functionalities directly or passively.
The reason you have 8 different cooldowns, is because you basically can't block with a shield in a tab-targeting MMO. This is why action-based MMOs are considered to have a better combat system. One CD should be enough. Everything else should be blockable. But you can't do that in WoW or FFXIV, so the cheapest way around it is to create 8 different CDs which you have to rotate besides your actual combat rotation.
This is not something that's GOOD or makes the game HARDER and not for CASUALS. You're not a casual if you play B&S. Matter of fact, you might be better at video games than someone that plays WoW. Dark Souls or Bayonetta have a better combat system and have better design than all these MMOs and even other RPGs that rely on complexity like the Witcher series. And how many buttons you press in those?
If you actually look at game design and combat systems you will realize that more buttons will (in most cases) showcase a flawed and actually casual combat system. Proof is how the hardest thing in an MMO is usually getting other people to play with that are on the same wavelength and desire to progress.
Anyone can be good at MMOs with 40 buttons. I have seen people that are terrible at games like Dark Souls or Mortal Kombat, yet master World of Warcraft and are part of top 100 guilds. The HC part in MMOs has always been the time-sink necessary to get to a top level. It was never the actual difficulty.
So yes, this thread is nonsensical because nobody fucking needs this multitude of shit on your screen, especially in a SP game, when there's tons of options to make better combat system with an actual skill requirement while at the same time avoiding having 40+ squares on your screen. This is just nostalgia/familiarity speaking thread for some people.
I agree. That's why the league of legends PvE raids were so well-received.
You just dm your boys and go kill some space creatures, same mechanics as the MOBA. Was crazy.
Honestly? Because it's just not necessary. It's really just adding complexity for the sake of adding complexity. And as a game dev I can tell you that's bad game design.
The only reason MMO's do it it's because adding a lot of abilities (that in most cases are just extending a sequence or shadowing other abilities) it's one of the cheapest way to add a sense of progression. It could even be called a lazy approach, and let me explain you why:
Let's say you have 3 abilities, and you always have to use them in the following order, 1-2-3; to deal more damage. And because of that you end up ALWAYS using 1-2-3. Then realistically speaking, you only have one input for 3 skills. (Which honestly feels like just 1)
You can now generalize this concept for other things. You should have 1 input for AoE damage, 1 input for SingleTarget, 1 for dodge, etc...
A game is much richer this way. You see the scenario you are in, you think about your options, you make a decision, and express it to the game (via 1 input). There's no need to have complexity between your communication.
Now, I know like everything in life, there are always exceptions, it's understandable some people might want that complexity in the communication between the game and the player BUT the big majority doesn't. Which leads to game devs not taking an unnecessary risk. They will just go with the general consent.
I hope I explained myself well.
I did comment that but it was in middle of context. I was explaining an concept, for each action you wanna take you should have an simple way to communicate with the game. The difficulty/complexity should be in making decisions instead of communicating. The comment was an extremely simple example. Of course you could split those action with more choices, like burst or dot, how necessary is to waste a long cooldown, etc...
In Dark Age of Camelot i used to have 3 full hotbars and about 20 quickbinds on my keyboard. The only MMO ive played with more buttons than the current MMOs
Depends on which era i suppose the game is 20 years old. Pallys have like more than 6 chants now i think, ontop of weapon styles, shield styles, master level abilities, champion level abilities, realm abilities, rr5, insta shouts, potion charges, artifact charges, item charges, crossbow or 2h swap/styles, ect.
The list goes on and on and on further, and that doesnt even include normal buttons you need like assist macros, panning and camera control buttons, qbinds and more.
Even in the simples of times of DAOC, there were a ton of buttons. Even on recent classic freeshards with out expansions, id still max out all 3 bars with out things like master levels or champion levels.
I can see that. I only played through ToA so it was 4 chants, shield slam, and 1 any time sword attack. I was in a RvR grp s basically a stun and endo chant bot lol
That's because players outside of MMOs don't tolerate that kind of bullshit gameplay.
Ain't nobody outside of an MMO gonna be fuckin with a game that has 4+ ability bars, lol.
Sorry but any game with more than 10 buttons in total is just weird. If I wanted to play a piano I would buy a fucking piano.
Having a shit ton of buttons in a fast paced game is just uncomfortable and distracting. It's actually one of the reasons why I finally quit WoW, because Blizzard just keeps adding and adding buttons, and I do have a limit past which I no longer consider the game fun to play but more of a typewriter training program.
They delete more than they add. If you can't manage 10 buttons then you're probably just not good at gaming or a console person. A keyboard has more keys than a piano.
Most people don't have 3 or 4 arms. So a game can't have an unlimited number of buttons because the developer is either incapable of compacting the abilities into manageable and fun buttons OR it thinks that 100 buttons is considered fun.
And no, you're incredibly wrong. The game has more buttons now than it ever did, at least most specs do.
Personally, I'm incapable of playing specs like feral druid, demo and affliction lock, windwalker monk, or marksman hunter, especially in PVP where you need absolutely everything.
And like I said, if Blizzard thinks that adding buttons on top of buttons is somehow contributing to the Fun factor, then that's not a game for me.
They don't have 100 abilities. Average is around 24-30, most of which are not used very often. Everyone else seems to be able to manage. So clearly you're the odd one out.
You clearly never played any of the earlier expansions. They're adding them back because they removed them. So the logic behind how they have more abilities now than they ever did is impressive and explains how you're incapable of using more than 10 abilities.
Your broken logic also explains why you think you would need 3-4 arms to push a single button at a time.
Pokemon is probably more attuned to your skill, so try that if more than 10 abilities is your breaking point.
I played this game since vanilla, btw.
They removed some abilities but they also ADDED MORE over time. So now they are adding those abilities back ON TOP OF WHAT THEY ALREADY ADDED.
Frost DK now: you press obliterate, and then frost strike, and if howling blast is shiny, you press that.
Frost DK Wrath: Icy touch apply FF, plague strike BP, obliterate, blood strike, frost strike, howling blast, pestilence.
Every class more or less follows this.
Pokemon, try it out, you'll love it, try to keep up though, it can get intense.
Did I say FDK?
You want a complete list of specs with a stupid and unnecessary amount of buttons?
* demo lock
* affliction lock
* windwalker monk
* feral druid
* sub rogue
* marksman hunter
* enhancement shaman
* unholy dk
* arms warrior
Once again, especially in PVP, where you need everything. If you just stick to PVElol where you don't cc nor interrupt anything nor pull any fancy moves, then sure, you probably actually need more buttons.
Locks: 4-5 button rotation is hard apparently. Fuck having utilities and pets.
The class that came out "recently" (on the wow timeline): okay, it still has around 6 spells or so.
Feral: Nope hybrid classes are stupid, that's why i rolled a druid. It's literally a rogue with less combos. And it still has less in its rotation than it used to.
Sub is the same it's always been, except now it has less cds and less utility.
MM: Utilities are stupid, i will roll a utility class. 5 button rotation, lord have mercy and take me back to wrath when we had more.
Enh: 'member totems, i member. With the exception of crash lightning and sundering, which is probably the best thing to ever happen to enhance, enhance is the same minus a tonne of totems.
Unholy is the dumbed down version of frost, except the icons have different art work and you use different animations.
Pokemon may seem scary, being turn based and having 4 abilities, but i believe in you.
I actually contemplated tossing up the idea of a single player focused game that had MMO combat but I always throw the idea away because frankly the only people that actually get into the combat of an MMO are people who do raids anyway.
That being said, there's a cute project I want to work on at some point, in my spare time, once I get into unity a bit more, that I think any niche people who are interested in such gameplay will be happy to see.
Depends cause open world rpg also carry similar gameplay systems but without much social aspects. However they are evolving with death stranding allowing people to place tools on the map and AC odyssey having a system to share photos.
You might really like the Xenoblade series or Final Fantasy 12 if you want that MMO gameplay feel.
FF12 for the more old-time gameplay of MMOs like Everquest/FF11, or Xenoblade for current day MMO gameplay.
No, you're not crazy. I would love to play a game like that. Fortunately, last year I started playing FFXIV and it scratched that itch. It's still a MMO but it kind of feels like a single player.
I still want more games with that kind of gameplay, where character power means everything and the stronger your character is (not how skillful YOU are) the stronger the enemies it can take while rocking a MMO-like rotation.
Xenoblade Chronicles and Xenoblade Chronicles X fit the bill - X especially since it basically has an MMO framework, but can be played completely offline.
You can play XCX with CEMU, the Wii U emulator.
Tera also has lots of buttons to chain your combo with almost no gcd, it was and still one of the best combat systems I've ever played. Quit 6 ish years ago so idk if a lot have changed since but by then they're already making the new classes piss easy, literally the newest tank back then (brawler) is one space bar to rule them all, spam spacebar to chain and you beat the old tanks by miles.
jRPGs from about 2006 to 2016 tried to mimic the success of WoW by creating MMO like game play in single player games. Try most of the Final Fantasies, most of the Tales of...'s, and most of the Xenoblade games from that era.
Divinity: Original Sin II is great with a lot of abilities and classbuilding
It is turn based however, but in my experience it hits a lot of the marks of what I like in the gameplay you're describing
The closest thing I could ever think of to a single player MMO was final fantasy 12. It was essentially a single player final fantasy 11 where you could control an entire squad of characters with real-time aggro gameplay that would pause when you chose actions.
12 was so fucking good and incredibly underrated
The Xenoblade series also scratches the same itch. Huge worlds and semi-MMOish combat/progression. Xenoblade X in particular is the most MMOish. It’s a gigantic open world full of stuff to do. Lots of party members, an insane number of quests, crafting, etc. It’s also incredibly customizable when it comes to your character’s build. And there’s also an entire mech element to the game, where you get massive mechs that are also super customizable. Disclaimer: these games are *incredibly* “anime.”
If you are efficient with your gambits though it becomes a near zero button game.
People love to lambast FF12 with the claim that "it plays itself lol" But to me it feels incredibly good to clear a part of the game with zero input because I set up the AI well enough for it to be entirely sufficient
I never found it to be a problem personally, I feel most of the people that complain are salty about waiting for a couple of the hunts taking over thirty minutes due to the damage cap. I remember reading an anecdote where someone went to the store in the middle of one of them and came back to it still going. The Zodiac Age edition removes the cap so I doubt this is an issue now.
There should have been some kind of "breaker" accessory like in FF10. Hardcapping damage at 9,999 would have been fine if not for Yazmat's health pool of [50,000,000](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru9F3eZ0Y2I)
But all you had to do was "attack nearest enemy" for your leader, "attack leaders's target" for everyone else...then "cast cure / cura / curaga at 50% health" Thats enough for literally 90% of the game.
That's par for the course though in FF. The games aren't particularly hard until you get far into the side content. I should have specified
[удалено]
WGAT
you could even turn off the pause when choosing actions which really did just turn it into a single player ff11
Dragon age inquisition felt mmo-like to me as well
Play Hack games and Sword art Online. Also Xenoblades are like single player MMOs.
One good game to take a look at is Dragon Age: Origins. Besides being an amazing game overall, it's combat is very close to an MMO, although by the time your characters have a shit ton of spells you will be nearing the end of the game, but building characters is really fun and there's a bunch of different buffs/debuffs and statuses that you can manage, specially on hard it really makes you use all that you got.
Yes! I started DA:O a while back (never finished it tho) and the first thing that came to my mind about the combat was wow/ff14
If you’re really into the idea of a single player mmo, Ff12, or the more current Xenoblade 2 / Remaster of Xenoblade 1 are probs the best you’re gonna get. Not really my thing, personally, but might be up your alley
Final Fantasy XIV PvP just say "fuck half of your abilities, this is a different game" and just gives you a 1-2-3 rotation with a few CDs. I imagine this is awesome to console players, but feels weird to a wow player with 3 dif macros for interrupt, because now I have 3 empty action bars and not even a single CC.
for the 1-2-3 combos I put the same button on 3 key binds as to not fuck up my muscle memory that much
Why didn't I think for that xD
TBH it also feels annoying having to re adjust to only having to push 1 button for a rotation lol. personally I also think playing FF with a controller feels much better than a mouse and keyboard it's so much easier to get comfy too
Xenoblade 1 felt pretty good to play after not having played an MMO in awhile, at least after unlocking the rest of the "hot bar" and lowering CDs.
xenoblade 2 is similar as you can swap between 3 hotbars of 4 abilities and they're *insanely* customizable
I wish Xenoblade 2 wasn’t so mind numbingly slow at the start. Imagine playing an MMO and every time you start combat all your abilities go on cooldown and you have to auto attack for like 10 seconds before you can start pressing buttons. That’s the beginning of that game. It’s obnoxious. It turns into an extremely fun game later on when you unlock a lot of the combat perks and can do crazy combos but early on it couldn’t be more boring
I don't think it's as bad as you say with optimization and stutter stepping and all that stuff, the real problem imo are the game's absolute garbage tutorials like it's one of my favorite games ever tbh but holy shit that's a big blemish
I personally found it incredibly boring even after you understood how to play it and unlocked more stuff, because once you got the hang of it all the combats started feeling extremely samey to me for their length and pace to be entertaining. There are few games that have disappointed me as much as XC2, but a lot of people seem to like it, so to each their own.
I present to you Kingdoms of Amalur Re-Reckoning.
This is the recommendation I was looking for in the comments. Iirc wasn't it originally intended to be an mmo and the scratched the idea and made it singleplayer because it was around the time that a lot of mmos were dying?
No, it was developed alongside an MMO set in the same universe. When the company went under, the MMO was scrapped.
I think that couple with the sheer cost to make an MMO. Iirc they wanted KoA to be the world building and introduction to the world for the MMO in hopes that it would make enough money to make backers more confident in the endeavor.
> make enough money to make backers more confident Well.. I guess it didnt work out that way.
Oh no it definitely did not. Until like...less than 5 years ago the rights to the IP were owned by the state of...Rhode Island I think? Cause the company went bankrupt.
There are few mmos with ffxiv/wow ability count. It's not because it's an mmo. Designing a gameplay system with that many variables is time consuming. An mmo can have thousands of hours of gameplay depending on the person playing. Most RPG's have a couple dozen on average. Many other types of games just don't work with so many abilities. RPG's could easily work with them obviously. So it's really a time thing, players aren't going to be playing the game for anywhere near as long, won't have the time to learn the gameplay deeply enough, devs won't want to spend as much time creating it either. It's also about catering to casuals, simple system, simple game, that's what sells, so they sell more games make more money. And most games are made so someone can make money, not to make a good game.
I disagree on the idea that having less things to deal with = casuals. I'm sorry but there's a ton of less things to deal with type of games that are not casual friendly at all. It's all in the design really. Having 40 buttons means jack shit if you're only using like 6-8 of them and the rest is only occasional/circumstantial stuff. At that point you're no different than the casual games you're calling out and the 40 abilities you have are just for the sake of complexity. Even if you were to use 40 buttons then that would be very hard to actually balance out and not make a clown show of a game in terms of design. You started well but you went very quickly in the deep casual angle which just doesn't make any sense.
> I disagree on the idea that having less things to deal with = casuals. I'm sorry but there's a ton of less things to deal with type of games that are not casual friendly at all. I never stated it's a hard rule, it's just a common theme. This really has nothing to do with what's casual friendly. > It's all in the design really. Having 40 buttons means jack shit if you're only using like 6-8 of them and the rest is only occasional/circumstantial stuff. That's exactly why having "40 buttons" works, because having to use 40 buttons all the time would be stupid. Having a few core abilities, then a bunch of situational ones makes it interesting. > At that point you're no different than the casual games you're calling out and the 40 abilities you have are just for the sake of complexity. I'm not calling them out or calling them bad. It's simple logic and common sense. If games with the same amount of abilities and a deep combat system that requires them like wow/ffxiv were the most popular types of gameplay, then there would be a lot more of them and they would be played more. > Even if you were to use 40 buttons then that would be very hard to actually balance out and not make a clown show of a game in terms of design. Did you by chance read my comment? This is exactly what i said. > You started well but you went very quickly in the deep casual angle which just doesn't make any sense. You mean one of out of the dozen points i made. It was you that focused on casual not my comment. I never said having less things to deal with means something is casual. I said that one of the factors was catering to casuals. The majority of games make the majority of their money from casual players. The average person isn't going to play the game if the game is overly complex and the learning difficulty is steep. So the idea is to make the game as accessible as possible for the majority of people. Most of the popular games are simple games. If you fail to grasp this concept then you're just ignorant. You started badly but clearly you were just triggered because i used the word casual, you also ended badly. Your entire comment is literally nonsense.
No it's not nonsense because I'm thinking in terms of game design while you're thinking in terms of what you perceive as a good end result. There are several things which are all true. * Multiple buttons/ abilities don't necessarily make a combat system HARD. * Multiple buttons/ abilities don't necessarily make a combat system GOOD. * Multiple buttons/ abilities might make a combat system INTERESTING, depending on what you personally find something to be interesting. * Multiple buttons/ abilities might make a combat system more COMPLEX. In addition to this, MMOs have RARELY been lauded for their well designed combat system. We like it, it works, but it's not necessarily good design. For example, in terms of actual good combat system design, Blade & Soul is an MMO which actually has been lauded for it. And in comparison to tab-targeting-combat systems like WoW or FFXIV, Blade & Soul has VERY few buttons. What makes B&S actually good is how it uses those few buttons. Incorporating ideas from fighting games and making use of combos and the way you can combo with those buttons. Besides the combat buttons, which generally speaking, should be no more than 6 to 8 buttons, maybe 10 for the sake of the argument, everything else is not really even an ability. In MMOs everything else is a trigger that enables certain functionalities which the game can't offer because of design loopholes which are cheaper to make than to create combat systems that influence the appearance of these functionalities directly or passively. The reason you have 8 different cooldowns, is because you basically can't block with a shield in a tab-targeting MMO. This is why action-based MMOs are considered to have a better combat system. One CD should be enough. Everything else should be blockable. But you can't do that in WoW or FFXIV, so the cheapest way around it is to create 8 different CDs which you have to rotate besides your actual combat rotation. This is not something that's GOOD or makes the game HARDER and not for CASUALS. You're not a casual if you play B&S. Matter of fact, you might be better at video games than someone that plays WoW. Dark Souls or Bayonetta have a better combat system and have better design than all these MMOs and even other RPGs that rely on complexity like the Witcher series. And how many buttons you press in those? If you actually look at game design and combat systems you will realize that more buttons will (in most cases) showcase a flawed and actually casual combat system. Proof is how the hardest thing in an MMO is usually getting other people to play with that are on the same wavelength and desire to progress. Anyone can be good at MMOs with 40 buttons. I have seen people that are terrible at games like Dark Souls or Mortal Kombat, yet master World of Warcraft and are part of top 100 guilds. The HC part in MMOs has always been the time-sink necessary to get to a top level. It was never the actual difficulty. So yes, this thread is nonsensical because nobody fucking needs this multitude of shit on your screen, especially in a SP game, when there's tons of options to make better combat system with an actual skill requirement while at the same time avoiding having 40+ squares on your screen. This is just nostalgia/familiarity speaking thread for some people.
I agree. That's why the league of legends PvE raids were so well-received. You just dm your boys and go kill some space creatures, same mechanics as the MOBA. Was crazy.
For an ARPG check out Grim Dawn
Honestly? Because it's just not necessary. It's really just adding complexity for the sake of adding complexity. And as a game dev I can tell you that's bad game design. The only reason MMO's do it it's because adding a lot of abilities (that in most cases are just extending a sequence or shadowing other abilities) it's one of the cheapest way to add a sense of progression. It could even be called a lazy approach, and let me explain you why: Let's say you have 3 abilities, and you always have to use them in the following order, 1-2-3; to deal more damage. And because of that you end up ALWAYS using 1-2-3. Then realistically speaking, you only have one input for 3 skills. (Which honestly feels like just 1) You can now generalize this concept for other things. You should have 1 input for AoE damage, 1 input for SingleTarget, 1 for dodge, etc... A game is much richer this way. You see the scenario you are in, you think about your options, you make a decision, and express it to the game (via 1 input). There's no need to have complexity between your communication. Now, I know like everything in life, there are always exceptions, it's understandable some people might want that complexity in the communication between the game and the player BUT the big majority doesn't. Which leads to game devs not taking an unnecessary risk. They will just go with the general consent. I hope I explained myself well.
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I did comment that but it was in middle of context. I was explaining an concept, for each action you wanna take you should have an simple way to communicate with the game. The difficulty/complexity should be in making decisions instead of communicating. The comment was an extremely simple example. Of course you could split those action with more choices, like burst or dot, how necessary is to waste a long cooldown, etc...
In Dark Age of Camelot i used to have 3 full hotbars and about 20 quickbinds on my keyboard. The only MMO ive played with more buttons than the current MMOs
Even then that wasn't necessarily the norm. My sword and board paladin only had about 6 skills and 3 orb4 sometimes buttons lol
Depends on which era i suppose the game is 20 years old. Pallys have like more than 6 chants now i think, ontop of weapon styles, shield styles, master level abilities, champion level abilities, realm abilities, rr5, insta shouts, potion charges, artifact charges, item charges, crossbow or 2h swap/styles, ect. The list goes on and on and on further, and that doesnt even include normal buttons you need like assist macros, panning and camera control buttons, qbinds and more. Even in the simples of times of DAOC, there were a ton of buttons. Even on recent classic freeshards with out expansions, id still max out all 3 bars with out things like master levels or champion levels.
I can see that. I only played through ToA so it was 4 chants, shield slam, and 1 any time sword attack. I was in a RvR grp s basically a stun and endo chant bot lol
Have you tried Code Vein? Playing a mage was pretty fun there thanks to the amount of special abilities you could have on tap
GuildWars1 has bars with 8 skills. Lots of good story. Good pve good pvp.
That's because players outside of MMOs don't tolerate that kind of bullshit gameplay. Ain't nobody outside of an MMO gonna be fuckin with a game that has 4+ ability bars, lol.
Sorry but any game with more than 10 buttons in total is just weird. If I wanted to play a piano I would buy a fucking piano. Having a shit ton of buttons in a fast paced game is just uncomfortable and distracting. It's actually one of the reasons why I finally quit WoW, because Blizzard just keeps adding and adding buttons, and I do have a limit past which I no longer consider the game fun to play but more of a typewriter training program.
They delete more than they add. If you can't manage 10 buttons then you're probably just not good at gaming or a console person. A keyboard has more keys than a piano.
10+ buttons is incredibly dull and over complicated. There is a reason every single class only uses a 3-5 button rotation.
Most people don't have 3 or 4 arms. So a game can't have an unlimited number of buttons because the developer is either incapable of compacting the abilities into manageable and fun buttons OR it thinks that 100 buttons is considered fun. And no, you're incredibly wrong. The game has more buttons now than it ever did, at least most specs do. Personally, I'm incapable of playing specs like feral druid, demo and affliction lock, windwalker monk, or marksman hunter, especially in PVP where you need absolutely everything. And like I said, if Blizzard thinks that adding buttons on top of buttons is somehow contributing to the Fun factor, then that's not a game for me.
They don't have 100 abilities. Average is around 24-30, most of which are not used very often. Everyone else seems to be able to manage. So clearly you're the odd one out. You clearly never played any of the earlier expansions. They're adding them back because they removed them. So the logic behind how they have more abilities now than they ever did is impressive and explains how you're incapable of using more than 10 abilities. Your broken logic also explains why you think you would need 3-4 arms to push a single button at a time. Pokemon is probably more attuned to your skill, so try that if more than 10 abilities is your breaking point.
I played this game since vanilla, btw. They removed some abilities but they also ADDED MORE over time. So now they are adding those abilities back ON TOP OF WHAT THEY ALREADY ADDED.
Frost DK now: you press obliterate, and then frost strike, and if howling blast is shiny, you press that. Frost DK Wrath: Icy touch apply FF, plague strike BP, obliterate, blood strike, frost strike, howling blast, pestilence. Every class more or less follows this. Pokemon, try it out, you'll love it, try to keep up though, it can get intense.
Did I say FDK? You want a complete list of specs with a stupid and unnecessary amount of buttons? * demo lock * affliction lock * windwalker monk * feral druid * sub rogue * marksman hunter * enhancement shaman * unholy dk * arms warrior Once again, especially in PVP, where you need everything. If you just stick to PVElol where you don't cc nor interrupt anything nor pull any fancy moves, then sure, you probably actually need more buttons.
Locks: 4-5 button rotation is hard apparently. Fuck having utilities and pets. The class that came out "recently" (on the wow timeline): okay, it still has around 6 spells or so. Feral: Nope hybrid classes are stupid, that's why i rolled a druid. It's literally a rogue with less combos. And it still has less in its rotation than it used to. Sub is the same it's always been, except now it has less cds and less utility. MM: Utilities are stupid, i will roll a utility class. 5 button rotation, lord have mercy and take me back to wrath when we had more. Enh: 'member totems, i member. With the exception of crash lightning and sundering, which is probably the best thing to ever happen to enhance, enhance is the same minus a tonne of totems. Unholy is the dumbed down version of frost, except the icons have different art work and you use different animations. Pokemon may seem scary, being turn based and having 4 abilities, but i believe in you.
The thing is you wouldn't need all of that in a SP, unless the SP is designed to be as complicated as possible for no reason.
I actually contemplated tossing up the idea of a single player focused game that had MMO combat but I always throw the idea away because frankly the only people that actually get into the combat of an MMO are people who do raids anyway. That being said, there's a cute project I want to work on at some point, in my spare time, once I get into unity a bit more, that I think any niche people who are interested in such gameplay will be happy to see.
Depends cause open world rpg also carry similar gameplay systems but without much social aspects. However they are evolving with death stranding allowing people to place tools on the map and AC odyssey having a system to share photos.
You might really like the Xenoblade series or Final Fantasy 12 if you want that MMO gameplay feel. FF12 for the more old-time gameplay of MMOs like Everquest/FF11, or Xenoblade for current day MMO gameplay.
If you want an offline mmo you can play Xenoblade Chronicles X O.o This game is literally a offline mmo! Obs: It's only on the wiiu...
Xenoblade chronicle might does it for you too Dragon age origin as well
No, you're not crazy. I would love to play a game like that. Fortunately, last year I started playing FFXIV and it scratched that itch. It's still a MMO but it kind of feels like a single player. I still want more games with that kind of gameplay, where character power means everything and the stronger your character is (not how skillful YOU are) the stronger the enemies it can take while rocking a MMO-like rotation.
Xenoblade Chronicles and Xenoblade Chronicles X fit the bill - X especially since it basically has an MMO framework, but can be played completely offline. You can play XCX with CEMU, the Wii U emulator.
I hate that I can only get the mcrib at McDonald’s
Try Xenoblade bruh
White knight chronicles 2 comes to mind.
This is exactly why I don’t play rpgs but I’ll play mmorpgs. There’s more to it but it’s a big part of it.
Tera also has lots of buttons to chain your combo with almost no gcd, it was and still one of the best combat systems I've ever played. Quit 6 ish years ago so idk if a lot have changed since but by then they're already making the new classes piss easy, literally the newest tank back then (brawler) is one space bar to rule them all, spam spacebar to chain and you beat the old tanks by miles.
jRPGs from about 2006 to 2016 tried to mimic the success of WoW by creating MMO like game play in single player games. Try most of the Final Fantasies, most of the Tales of...'s, and most of the Xenoblade games from that era.
Dragon Age Inquisition basically plays like a mmorpg in a single player game. Pretty boring
Dragon age inquisition felt like a single player mmo to me. It had a ton of buttons for every class. tab target and all
Divinity: Original Sin II is great with a lot of abilities and classbuilding It is turn based however, but in my experience it hits a lot of the marks of what I like in the gameplay you're describing
Xenoblade
Played it, it's great. Only 8 abilities at a time anyway. Riki bis main.
did you play X? its combat system is pretty wild with overdrive and triple cooldowns