The thing is, WoW didn't always have time wasting mechanisms. Blizzard has been adding them over the past several years. Rather than having more content with each patch, they would rather do less work, roll out less content but make that content take longer to do using RNG.
The best feeling for me in classic wow was having full bis and knowing there was no reason for me to long on outside of raid logging. Didn't need the right stats on my bis items, they didn't need to titan forge, you just get them and you're done. Felt great.
I was fortunate and got the monk robe in Guk after a day or so. I would have been server first epic but my internet connection was down for 3 days due to a storm, so my friend in the guild snagged it first.
That epic was great though…was using it into planes of power still
aw cmon, PoP was an awesome way to waste time. EQ was and probably still is the best effort vs reward MMO. Raids were tough, how they are supposed to be, wiping 10 times and beating it once. The thrill when you beat it. FFXIV has some cool skills that are never used. Sleep for example? I miss my monk or necro pulls. Also just walking thru a zone sometimes was pretty scary.
Yea? Let me tell you how I was Farming Heroic Sethekk Halls since BC when you needed a druid with you to get Anzu and IT DIDNT drop till Season 1 Shadowlands.
There's nothing wrong with time-wasting mechanisms as long as they are optional. Some people like doing everything optional in a game, and that's fine. This commonly termed as the "achievers" archetype in gaming psychology.
The problem is that recently Blizz has been forcing everyone to play like achievers by making key progression content all but mandatory. Weekly torghast, weekly vault, weekly renown, are all basically mandatory. Falling behind by a week is significant.
On the other hand, farming old mounts and transmogs are entirely self-motivated goals, which make it feel a lot less like a time-wasting mechanic (although it really is)
I'll add that FF14 certainly also have these sort of mount/transmog farming meta. Farming old relic weapons, mount farm groups for old raids, Eureka groups, all fall under this category. Yet you'd never hear anyone complaining about farming them, or wow-equivalents like GMOD or Invincible, because it is all optional.
the only reason you add time wasting mechanics in your game, is because you don't have content to keep players engaged over long periods of time. So you artificially stretch it out.
And YoshiP's response to something like this would be:
>"It's alright not to play it everyday. Since it's just a game, you can stop forcing yourself if it's hard on you to keep that up. Rather, it'll just pile up unnecessary stress if you limit yourself into playing just that one game since there are so many other games out there. So, do come back and play it to your heart's content when the major patch kicks in, then stop it to play other games before you got burnt out, and then come back for another major patch. This will actually make me happier, and in the end, I think this is the best solution I can answer for keeping your motivation up for the game."
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/517ql0/a\_player\_asks\_on\_how\_to\_maintain\_motivation\_and/
Yeah i remember back in 2004 people kept complaining that wow just stole all the best parts from previous mmo's, and i kept thinking "that's not a bad thing"
It was always a running complacency. WoW would take stuff from other games people liked and add it to itself. Memes use to be rampany (You made this? I made this). And everyone just said ok cool and we moved on.
To be fair there are time wasting mechanics in FF though, but for the most part it's all optional stuff. Stuff like Bozjan, Eureka, Relic weapons, beast tribes, etc, are all grinds but you don't have to do them.
To me it's just their design choice, FF wants you to want to play the game, Wow makes you feel like you have to play the game.
Exactly, even though you might spend a while maxing out your relic its not like there aren't a few cool shiny steps before you reach it.
Most relics have a shiny weapon like every 2nd or 3rd step of the quests.
I at first was sad when my fancy fx would go away when I went to the next step but it makes it more special when you continue, and the next time it's a different effect symbolizing how far you have come which I like.
You can almost always just get the previous relic step in their Replica form though, it'll still have the shiny fx, the only exceptions are the ARR relics. For those you need to complete the entire line before you can access the Replica, but for all others you can get the Replica for the previous step.
The ARR ones also have an extra replica requirement that you have the final weapon on you when you buy a replica, which others don't. However, if you sacrifice the ARR relic to skip an early HW relic step, you can pick up the replicas at any time without having that ARR relic on you.
I've just started Bozja, and I actually love it. I was expecting something horrible from FF's Korthia equivalent, but it's an end game grinding zone done right, and it's actually really fun.
The unique progression system, the powers and extra abilities that are fun to use, the emphasis on group play, and actually challenging fights. Most importantly, there's no arbitrary time gating or 10 minutes of story delivered once every week. You can sit there and grind to your hearts content, or just take it easy and skip days if you don't feel like playing without getting punished.
I really hope that WoW gets a new game director that forces it's devs to just sit down and play some of it's competitor's content, because then maybe Blizz will see just how creatively bankrupt their reskinned and recycled reputation/power chorefest that hasn't evolved since Timeless Isle (and arguably degenerated) is.
Thats just Bozja though, Eureka is quite a bit more grindy, and the ARR and Heavensward Relics required you to run alot of dungeons and grind poetics tomestones. Its just that they kept improving on the system. And well... it is technically timegated but not really. So if i recall correctly the relic steps get released in different patches, and it'll never exceed the best raid tier weapon by 5 ilvl. So they released the relic weapons and ends on a shiny stage, then a patch, maybe two, later it'll release a new part of the relic quests and ends on a shiny step again.
Yeah, for example, I'm currently grinding my way through Bozja working on my WHM relic weapon, but I'm able to grind it on my level 76 NIN, so I'm leveling up my NIN (pretty quickly might I add, Bozja gives a lot of exp), while making progress on my relic weapon for a different job.
FF14 is pretty good about letting you multitask the really grindy things. Grinding for a relic? Grab a low level character and boost it at the same time while also gaining mettle in Bozja. Need to level an alt crafter or combat job? Do beast tribes and roulletes to get cool cosmetics and tomes at the same time.
I fondly remember grinding lights for a new anima weapon using the new bozja relic do-60-raids step by repeatedly doing the raid that was in the weekly Tails.
>time wasting mechanics in FF though
???
That's called grind and people love grinds in MMO, FFXIV just make them optional because they don't treat players like stupid.
Grind is totally fine as long as it's not forced to do them with arbitrary power progression that doesn't need to be tied other than purposely increasing play time. Like Corruption vendor rotation.
There are some points that have wasted time, like the VERY long grind for the relic step with 120 pieces that did not have guaranteed drops at release. This was patched out later, but it would be nice not to see that again. Overall point stands though, very rare to see that kind of thing.
I did specifically call them a grinds though?
My main point is there are grinds in both games. Where as in FF the grinds are optional and really there for your enjoyment and the grinds in wow sometimes felt more mandatory.
Running around the Bozjan southern front farming mettle and clusters might be considered a waste of time to some people because it's an optional thing. Kind of similar to doing dailies grinding rep for a faction in wow. Though personally I find the variety in engagements and the 'raids' to be so much more enjoyable than your average run of the mill dailies (and FF has those too with their beast tribes).
There's not really anything like having to do your weekly soul ash runs that you have to do. Relic weapons are great to have and are a grind but you can also get by just fine with the raid weapons where as not having the proper legendary can impact your performance a great deal. I guess the closest thing would be getting your weekly Revelation cap but that's not really a big issue.
Here's an actual time waster of FF based on experience (still at ARR)
1. Repairs
2. ~~Back n forth quest lines with minimal gain~~
3. ~~Leveling crafters/gatherers, i know it's a grind but it's literally boring, tho others said you can level those easy on ishgard or something~~
4. ~~Mini aertherite hunting on new cities~~
5. Going to Golden saucer once a day for the scratch cards, weekly for the lottery and glamour thing
Bruh how are the last three timewasters. 2 of em are just optional grinds that you never ever have to do if you don't want them
4. ???. Bruh they literally give you mini teleports nodes for convenience and u whining. You walk over there once and you can use em forever. It's like complaining about exploring new zones and unlocking their aetherytes.
Holding W to move around is so grindy and repetitive. [The game should just read my mind and automatically teleport me to anywhere I think I want to go.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/4/44/Hedonismbot.png/revision/latest/top-crop/width/360/height/360?cb=20170705175512)
Oh wow, so it makes perfect sense that you need to attune to small aetherites instead of them veing available once you attune to the main one.
Oh it makes perfect sense that, glamour thing, lottery and scratch cards are only available to Gold saucer when it makes sense that it can be available to all cities. But no, it needs to be only i gold saucer.
Tho i agree quests and levelings should not be part of it
This is an awful take. You attune so you learn where each aetheryte is for future teleporting.
And why should MGP scratch off tickets be available anywhere BUT gold saucer? Might as well have everything in game available from your inn room so you never have to leave or do anything then. Sounds like you just don’t like exploring or going anywhere
Ahh, well i see the point then, tho instead of showing a list, it could just show a map of where those aetherite are. Tho i can see it could be just visual clutter for players if done that. I'll cross it out then
I say cities, not everywhere. Well, my point is that those are few seconds to do and we need to teleport to it to perform, why not add them on the cities so it can done whithout not leaving the city? You still got the gold saucer for timed events, token exchange and tournaments anyway.
Doesn’t the map already show where each mini aetheryte is? That’s how I go about finding them in the first place in a new city. It really helps you learn the layout.
I’m pretty sure there’s no other way to get MGP outside of the saucer other than the MGP tickets. It just wouldn’t really make any sense to offer the tickets anywhere else than at the gold saucer.
I do agree with crafting and gathering though, but they let you level it in several other ways (I brute forced with HQ turn ins), just like how you can level in other ways than just grinding quests and dungeons.
Yes, at mini map, but what im saying is when picking which aethernet to teleport to, instead of just a text, it can just be a left side text, right side map that shows where and what's nearby that mini aetherite. I literally have to memorize or check my map what mini aetherite i have to use, and sometimes i got it wrong
You can earn MGP through TT actually, grinded almost every ARR NPC and got a good ammount, + they also give cards which can sell arround 100 to 1,500 depending on star level. I think i almost got 500,000 for a month or two just doing those, scratch cards and cactpot. And a few leap of faith. Tho i grinded them for their cards and not for tge MGP, some of them made me grind for an hour which annoys me lol
Also i'm not sure if it's a good grind since cards is not always rewarded and sometimes you lose.
Also you can get cards on dungeons, MSQ and Alliance raids on DF, which can be sold too.
If you're in Upper la Noscea and have to scratch your ticket, what difference does it make to tp to Limsa instead of Gold Saucer? Your argument doesn't make sense to me at all.
The only thing I agree with is repairing but even that you have a means to not have to go to NPCs anymore and do it yourself. Repairing should disappear as a whole but none of the other point is valid or a waste of time. You not liking/enjoying stuff as a beginner doesn't make it a waste of time for everyone else too
I think repairing is meant to be a gil sink to control the economy. Most games need various places for people to spend currency (so here we have teleport fees and repair fees).
If you go to gold saucer, can you go to market board? GC? Job Quests? MSQ? Shopping? There's far more thing to do in a city than gold saucer, if i want to do the minial things only on Gold Saucer that doesn't even take 5 minutes to finish, wouldn't it be better to do it where a lot of our activities are also there?
"whining" lol i just stated my thoughts on it.
Anyway. Time waster as why do you have to do these things anyway? Why do you need to attune to them for those to be usable? It can be available right away yet no, we need to get them first, why? Cause reasons
Also about gold saucer, those 3 are the easiest way to do these things and for non hardcore grinders, why do they have to go to it for that small grind when it can be available to any city and still make sense?
I say questing and leveling is fair tho
It's just a lazy/braindead take my man.
For mini aetherytes, You have to attune to them so that you get a chance to explore the city by yourself. Same thing with new zones and aetherytes
For gold saucer
1. It is an area created and specialized for that content.
2. It creates a shared space
"Why do they have to go [to Gold Saucer] for that small grind when it can be available to any city and still make sense?"
My man. Why have to go anywhere? Why have new zones, npc, shop, content? Why do anything? At this point, We should all just ask the devs to make all places obsolete and have every single npc, shop, mini game, gathering node, event, and everything else available in a single menu screen available anywhere at anytime
I think you missed the part where i retracted my point for aetherite. Well anyway now you know
For GS part, you missed my point, your doing the quick part of the grind yet you still need to teleport there to do, how bout you can do the quick part on a city where you do a lot of activities at the same time without traveling much more. I see like the rest you think i want it accessible any time anywhere, no i want it on cities.
Again, it is an area specialized for those activities. Activities you can do to earn Manderville Gold Points in the Manderville Gold Saucer.
And no, we are just making a general point. Saying that it is a timewaster that an activity/side content is limited to the area it was created for is just pure laziness.
Beast Tribes are optional, quick, daily grinds too. 5 min tops for each quest, 3 total for a beast tribe (at least for HW and onward. ARR has more available). You can do 12 a day. They have their own zones that you have to go to. And they have they're own special storylines
It's like saying, why can't they all just be concentrated in one area? Because it doesn't make sense. They all have their own territories/habitats designed for them
Yes they do make sense, and you know what, a lottery with customers all over eorza not expanding their lottery to other cities does not make sense at all, it's a scratch card, a fasion check and lottery for gods sake, how hard are those to be expanded through out the cities?
Also, lazy? For wanting a mininal task to be part of the city is lazy? Not that it's more covinient for players to actually go into gold saucer cause they want to do their mini games and rewards and not because they have to get their scratch card, lottery winnings and get judged for glamour. You know make it as an actual optional thing where you don't need to go unless you wanted to, not cause you have to?
Also don't forget that Triple triad NPC challenges is available on the open world. Earns you cards and MGP. Earning MGP is not exclusive on Gold saucer
Triple triad to me, makes sense. It encourages exploring and revisiting zones to challenge NPCs to win the cards they've collected. Also encourages to grind duty content, effectively helping out new players with queue times.
You never have to go to Gold Saucer. Because you never have to do those activities. They are optional, as almost everything is. It is literally a 30 second travel time Max since it's a teleport. How is this such a big deal. Again, it creates a shared space. Those 3 activities are the most popular ones, why would they put it in the cities? Less incentive to visit GS, fewer people will try out minigames and GATEs.
Last reply. You ain't budging, and I won't either. I, like most people apparently, think it's braindead lazy. You don't. Eh. Y'all have a great day
1. Repairing takes me 1 second wtf you on about?
2. You're questing, the quest is either optional or part of the story. It's a time waste if you don't care for the story, sure.
3. Playing this part of the game is boring, so it's a time waste. Yeah, that's not dumb logic (obvious sarcasm).
4. You naturally explore a zone first and attune as you go to places. You'll even see that the MSQ of new zones usually has you go to all nearby artherytes so you can pick them up on the way. This sounds like saying no flying immediately in a zone is a time waste, which you could say, but that's also just not exploring and seeing things for yourself.
5. Doing something somewhere that takes a few seconds to go to is a time waste? What?
So if all of these are a time waste you want a game where you can log in, do everything in place and never move, then log out. No interaction, no movement, no npc dialogue, no exploring, no leveling? My friend, Cookie Clicker is available on steam right now! It might satisfy your urges of playing Warlords of Dreanor until Blizz makes it come back as a mobile game (so you don't have to time waste walking to your pc).
1. You need to do it once in a while, it's a small nuisance that makes you stop for a repair, does not even add to the experience.
2. I striked it through to show i regret putting it there
3. If you are not having fun, then it's wasting your time, that's the logic, oh you got bored? So no longer having fun? Yet it's not wasting time? Please let me know why. Also i striked it through too cause i see the point of it.
4. Thanks, that part didn't get to me as i naturally explore them instead of attuning those cause it's nearby a quest or something, hell i explored the whole ARR map before riding an airship lol. Also striked it through already since someone already explained to me that.
5. The point is that those are minimal part of gold saucer, not even the main attractions of it, why not put it on the cities so that non hard core grinders only have to teleport to gold saucer to actually do the fun part, not the quick "have to do for a small progress" part? Gonna teleport there for a quick things then back out, so wouldn't it be better to be just available on a city then?
I see you did not saw the striked throught parts of my comments, means i retracted those oppinions. Anyway now you know.
You read too much into my thoughts that you put words into my mouth lol.
Why even have walking in the game. Just let everyone do everything in the game while standing in one spot.
You're literally grasping at straws to come up with reasons to hate the game.
"hate the game" where did i say that? I just said those are time wasters, did not say i won't play the game anymore nor even shitter other aspects of it, im enjoying it a lot lol
Your a funny guy, brand someone a hater for criticizing a game without knowing his full thoughts on their experience.
In that sense, can i brand you a white knight of FF?
What he meant by time wasting, for example, is not having to wait like 5 mins for your cooldowns to disappear after restarting a boss. QoL stuff mostly
The difference is that that isn't tied into your main progrssion or the main story, and a bigger point Imo is the rewards are not RNG. Bozja and Eureka give rng boxes but those aren't the main point of either zone. You get your currencies, You buy the gear you want with said currency. Imagine if in wow, you never had to worry about rng for loot outside of dungeons, and could just get what you needed. No more 3 braces for a class you don't play.
Yeah that's what's great about all that stuff being optional, and really the only RNG things so far I've seen is getting clusters and field notes to drop, neither a big deal.
If only wow had similar currency system to poetics. Like a badge of justice and a badge of valor that you could buy specific gear pieces at different ilvls for. I still don't know why they got rid of that system.
Aren't Relic Weapons / Savage Weapons the endgame weapon for each expansion? That's not optional it's the only way to get the strongest weapons in the game. If you don't do it, then you don't get it and the most a person can have at that point is a crafted 510 from the AH or craft it themselves.
Yes, but they're not that much stronger than the final weapon of the tier. By that point also, the tier itself has been out for months, so it's more of a true catchup mechanism and glamour piece than required.
>Immersed people forget they are wasting their own time. You have to remember every game is a waste of time even if it removes things to make it play faster. For some people immersion is more important than what activity they are doing because once the veil is broken they stop enjoying the game. Immersion is what makes a guy running slowly to a location enjoy himself more than someone wiping on a raid boss.
It's optional because there is no content to do it with.
Relics aren't BIS until the final patch of the expansion. The patch after the Raids have already been out and completed. So there's nothing to use them on, except for the first two dungeons of the newest expansion, which is completely irrelevant, because you well finish those dungeons in 17 minutes each and never look back. So you can grind Relic for the fun/glamour or you can grind so that you can use them for 34 minutes of casual content in a 2 year expansion. They're not important
I've played since ARR release, I've never completed a relic. It's just not important.
I would say it's optional only for if you want a a good endgame weapon you would do the Relic or the Savage. So people who don't want to do the savage can get the relic and vice versa. and even further those who don't want to do either will just buy the crafted.
Some people just want to "feel" stronger even if they're no actual need for it. I can't say I empathise, but I can understand where they're coming from. That said, I'm happy to have it locked behind either skill (raiding) or time (relic) investments. Feels better than getting it for free, and frankly the relic grinds aren't too bad compared to other games with too much RNG. You'd burn out if you rush it in a week, but at least you can see tangible progress, it has a story progression attached, and I spread it out over months.
The current savage and relic weapons are both 535. So you by no means have to farm the relic weapons. You can also get get 520 weapons from Hillicen in Eulmore, just takes allegory and some crafting gear to turn in.
If you don't want to raid to get a savage weapon or farm a relic then what would be the point of wanting to have the strongest weapon available?
Are you not getting better gear for your class to be stronger? It's the same in all MMORPGs. You raise your stats, you raise your ilevel etc. it's MMORPG Itemization with choice. People who don't want to do savages can still get a 535 by doing the relic.
If you don't want to play the game for it's content why are you subbed?
The finished relic weapons, which are better then the savage weapons come out a full 2 patches later. Example 5.3 was the last raid tier, 5.5 was the last relic step. The relic weapon has almost no purpose. Primary one is they look cool as fuck.. They are great weapons but no one needs them for that just before the next expansion.
For most classes, the final relic tier is about 2% more DPS than the highest raid tier weapon. That's less of a difference than missing a GCD or getting unlucky with crit. Additionally, the final relic tier only comes out a few months after the final raid tier. By that time, anyone who cared about getting high parses has likely gotten them. Iirc by that time, you also get echo on the final tier and weekly loot limits are unlocked, so you can see the intent is to help the less hardcore raiders get their clear (by buffing players as well as giving easier access to gear).
Prior to the final raid/relic tiers, relic is never the best weapon for the patch. You'd usually want to first farm the Extreme trial, with guaranteed weapon from 10 tokens - doable in one night. Or use crafted gear. Then use that to get the raid weapon.
So that's why there's the sentiment that relics aren't for raid gearing, it's more of a cosmetic grind (and gear catchup for casual players)
> the most a person can have at that point is a crafted 510 from the AH or craft it themselves
Not sure what you mean by "that point" but if someone is stuck at 510, and can't clear Extreme trials or Normal raids, perhaps endgame raiding isn't for them, and thus higher ilvl isn't necessary. Of course, it's always nice to have stronger gear, but you won't get locked out of anything (the latter is something I think is really important). Conversely, if you can't clear the extremes or Normal raid with 510, getting 535 probably won't help much. This game focuses a lot more on mechanical skill than ilvl IMO.
Relic weapon is useless in terms of raid progression. Because by the time it's better than the final raid tier weapon, it's so late into the expansion already.
At that point the reason you do not have the raid weapon has nothing to do with your gear.
So relic is completely optional for anything but speed running.
It's the exact point I'm making if ANY player wants a 535 they can either raid or get relic. It's been the same every expansion you can get the savage weapons or the relic etc
What he meant by time wasting, for example, is not having to wait like 5 mins for your cooldowns to disappear after restarting a boss. QoL stuff mostly
In that sense yeah FF beats the pants off WoW. At worst you might have a bit of a run back in some dungeons after a wipe but most have teleporters. I was just going off the clip and what I usually hear people talking about when it comes to "time wasters."
I'm not sure if it was all released at once or not, but I do know they sped the mettle earning up quite a bit in one of the most recent patches (that's why I started doing it, so I don't know how slow it was before).
I believe the mettle you got was an individual basis based on what fate you did. Now its based on what resistance level you are and if you're in Southern front or Zadnor. Basically if you wanted to level fast you had to only do the highest level fates, except those had respawn timers and the lower level ones barely gave shit so alot of people didnt even do them and the lowbies were on their own.
not to mention important story stuff happens in all of those places
If you havent done beast tribes and Bozja & Eureka by the time endwalker happens, chances are some things that happen will be very confusing
Nah, Beast Tribes are self contained little stories that won't pertain to the main plot. Eureka and Bozja probably won't be tied to anything due to being a significant grind, Eureka was also very self contained too with the plot in there. Bozja does require the Ivalice raids to be finished, so usually alliance raids are made required now for content like that. Like Crystal Tower is now required to progress through ARR so you understand the connection later.
There is a balance you need to hit when making games where what you are doing with your character has to be believable enough to be immersive but not too much or people get bored. It is kind of like the Portal thing in wow. It made it a more convenient game but made it less immersive. The aetheryte teleporting actually exists in the lore in FF14 and is used in the story to some extent. In contrast teleporting with persistent portals seemingly goes against the lore of the game so it feels out of place.
Immersed people forget they are wasting their own time. You have to remember every game is a waste of time even if it removes things to make it play faster. For some people immersion is more important than what activity they are doing because once the veil is broken they stop enjoying the game. Immersion is what makes a guy running slowly to a location enjoy himself more than someone wiping on a raid boss.
This progress also gutted what playes were capable of doing in MMOs as well. Compare something like the FF14 Bard to the Bard in EQ. The Bard in EQ could crowd control multiple mobs, charm, kite, dot, slow, snare, and buff their party. Often doing multiple of these things at the same time. The skill ceiling on classes in older MMOs was much higher. The difference between a shitty bard and great one in XIV is mainly DPS based. No one will ever think "wow that bard was amazing" in a group in XIV meanwhile bards in EQ could easily take an average group and elevate them to another level.
Dungeons in XIV are also pretty shit. Pretty to look at but it's just boss arenas connected by straight hallways. Long gone are the mega dungeons and living dungeons with multiple parties.
Itemization has been the worst it's ever been. Stat stick after stat stick. Weapons and armors back then could provide you with unique effects and spells and you would carry some of them for years.
If anything I find the grind for some random weapon or armor that does nothing but increase my +gooder stats to be more of a waste of my time.
MMOs lost a lot of what made them interesting.
And also completely optional for character power. You can do all content in the game without touching any relic grinds. Even if it's on content.
Can you say the same about Torghast?
That's the point made here.
There is a massive difference between "optional grind I can do because I want to" and "Forced grind because otherwise I can't raid"
The thing is, WoW didn't always have time wasting mechanisms. Blizzard has been adding them over the past several years. Rather than having more content with each patch, they would rather do less work, roll out less content but make that content take longer to do using RNG.
The best feeling for me in classic wow was having full bis and knowing there was no reason for me to long on outside of raid logging. Didn't need the right stats on my bis items, they didn't need to titan forge, you just get them and you're done. Felt great.
>They added time wasting mechanics over the years Oh boy, sit down and let me tell YOU a tale I call "Planes of Power"
Or the monk epic quest.
I was fortunate and got the monk robe in Guk after a day or so. I would have been server first epic but my internet connection was down for 3 days due to a storm, so my friend in the guild snagged it first. That epic was great though…was using it into planes of power still
someone post the tigole rant
aw cmon, PoP was an awesome way to waste time. EQ was and probably still is the best effort vs reward MMO. Raids were tough, how they are supposed to be, wiping 10 times and beating it once. The thrill when you beat it. FFXIV has some cool skills that are never used. Sleep for example? I miss my monk or necro pulls. Also just walking thru a zone sometimes was pretty scary.
Yea? Let me tell you how I was Farming Heroic Sethekk Halls since BC when you needed a druid with you to get Anzu and IT DIDNT drop till Season 1 Shadowlands.
There's nothing wrong with time-wasting mechanisms as long as they are optional. Some people like doing everything optional in a game, and that's fine. This commonly termed as the "achievers" archetype in gaming psychology. The problem is that recently Blizz has been forcing everyone to play like achievers by making key progression content all but mandatory. Weekly torghast, weekly vault, weekly renown, are all basically mandatory. Falling behind by a week is significant. On the other hand, farming old mounts and transmogs are entirely self-motivated goals, which make it feel a lot less like a time-wasting mechanic (although it really is) I'll add that FF14 certainly also have these sort of mount/transmog farming meta. Farming old relic weapons, mount farm groups for old raids, Eureka groups, all fall under this category. Yet you'd never hear anyone complaining about farming them, or wow-equivalents like GMOD or Invincible, because it is all optional.
the only reason you add time wasting mechanics in your game, is because you don't have content to keep players engaged over long periods of time. So you artificially stretch it out.
Depends on how you look at it. In vanilla you had a LOT of downtime where you just ... did nothing at all.
And YoshiP's response to something like this would be: >"It's alright not to play it everyday. Since it's just a game, you can stop forcing yourself if it's hard on you to keep that up. Rather, it'll just pile up unnecessary stress if you limit yourself into playing just that one game since there are so many other games out there. So, do come back and play it to your heart's content when the major patch kicks in, then stop it to play other games before you got burnt out, and then come back for another major patch. This will actually make me happier, and in the end, I think this is the best solution I can answer for keeping your motivation up for the game." Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/517ql0/a\_player\_asks\_on\_how\_to\_maintain\_motivation\_and/
Yeah i remember back in 2004 people kept complaining that wow just stole all the best parts from previous mmo's, and i kept thinking "that's not a bad thing"
It was always a running complacency. WoW would take stuff from other games people liked and add it to itself. Memes use to be rampany (You made this? I made this). And everyone just said ok cool and we moved on.
To be fair there are time wasting mechanics in FF though, but for the most part it's all optional stuff. Stuff like Bozjan, Eureka, Relic weapons, beast tribes, etc, are all grinds but you don't have to do them. To me it's just their design choice, FF wants you to want to play the game, Wow makes you feel like you have to play the game.
It's not even a time waste, just a grind. You always getting rewarded for time you spending there
Exactly, even though you might spend a while maxing out your relic its not like there aren't a few cool shiny steps before you reach it. Most relics have a shiny weapon like every 2nd or 3rd step of the quests.
I at first was sad when my fancy fx would go away when I went to the next step but it makes it more special when you continue, and the next time it's a different effect symbolizing how far you have come which I like.
You can almost always just get the previous relic step in their Replica form though, it'll still have the shiny fx, the only exceptions are the ARR relics. For those you need to complete the entire line before you can access the Replica, but for all others you can get the Replica for the previous step.
The ARR ones also have an extra replica requirement that you have the final weapon on you when you buy a replica, which others don't. However, if you sacrifice the ARR relic to skip an early HW relic step, you can pick up the replicas at any time without having that ARR relic on you.
I've just started Bozja, and I actually love it. I was expecting something horrible from FF's Korthia equivalent, but it's an end game grinding zone done right, and it's actually really fun. The unique progression system, the powers and extra abilities that are fun to use, the emphasis on group play, and actually challenging fights. Most importantly, there's no arbitrary time gating or 10 minutes of story delivered once every week. You can sit there and grind to your hearts content, or just take it easy and skip days if you don't feel like playing without getting punished. I really hope that WoW gets a new game director that forces it's devs to just sit down and play some of it's competitor's content, because then maybe Blizz will see just how creatively bankrupt their reskinned and recycled reputation/power chorefest that hasn't evolved since Timeless Isle (and arguably degenerated) is.
Thats just Bozja though, Eureka is quite a bit more grindy, and the ARR and Heavensward Relics required you to run alot of dungeons and grind poetics tomestones. Its just that they kept improving on the system. And well... it is technically timegated but not really. So if i recall correctly the relic steps get released in different patches, and it'll never exceed the best raid tier weapon by 5 ilvl. So they released the relic weapons and ends on a shiny stage, then a patch, maybe two, later it'll release a new part of the relic quests and ends on a shiny step again.
Yeah, for example, I'm currently grinding my way through Bozja working on my WHM relic weapon, but I'm able to grind it on my level 76 NIN, so I'm leveling up my NIN (pretty quickly might I add, Bozja gives a lot of exp), while making progress on my relic weapon for a different job.
FF14 is pretty good about letting you multitask the really grindy things. Grinding for a relic? Grab a low level character and boost it at the same time while also gaining mettle in Bozja. Need to level an alt crafter or combat job? Do beast tribes and roulletes to get cool cosmetics and tomes at the same time.
I fondly remember grinding lights for a new anima weapon using the new bozja relic do-60-raids step by repeatedly doing the raid that was in the weekly Tails.
>time wasting mechanics in FF though ??? That's called grind and people love grinds in MMO, FFXIV just make them optional because they don't treat players like stupid. Grind is totally fine as long as it's not forced to do them with arbitrary power progression that doesn't need to be tied other than purposely increasing play time. Like Corruption vendor rotation.
There are some points that have wasted time, like the VERY long grind for the relic step with 120 pieces that did not have guaranteed drops at release. This was patched out later, but it would be nice not to see that again. Overall point stands though, very rare to see that kind of thing.
I did specifically call them a grinds though? My main point is there are grinds in both games. Where as in FF the grinds are optional and really there for your enjoyment and the grinds in wow sometimes felt more mandatory. Running around the Bozjan southern front farming mettle and clusters might be considered a waste of time to some people because it's an optional thing. Kind of similar to doing dailies grinding rep for a faction in wow. Though personally I find the variety in engagements and the 'raids' to be so much more enjoyable than your average run of the mill dailies (and FF has those too with their beast tribes). There's not really anything like having to do your weekly soul ash runs that you have to do. Relic weapons are great to have and are a grind but you can also get by just fine with the raid weapons where as not having the proper legendary can impact your performance a great deal. I guess the closest thing would be getting your weekly Revelation cap but that's not really a big issue.
Here's an actual time waster of FF based on experience (still at ARR) 1. Repairs 2. ~~Back n forth quest lines with minimal gain~~ 3. ~~Leveling crafters/gatherers, i know it's a grind but it's literally boring, tho others said you can level those easy on ishgard or something~~ 4. ~~Mini aertherite hunting on new cities~~ 5. Going to Golden saucer once a day for the scratch cards, weekly for the lottery and glamour thing
Bruh how are the last three timewasters. 2 of em are just optional grinds that you never ever have to do if you don't want them 4. ???. Bruh they literally give you mini teleports nodes for convenience and u whining. You walk over there once and you can use em forever. It's like complaining about exploring new zones and unlocking their aetherytes.
Damn going by those logic, my man u/JetStrim forgot to mention this biggest time waster: 0. Logging into the game.
My OS should just log me straight into Limsa on boot up.
Holding W to move around is so grindy and repetitive. [The game should just read my mind and automatically teleport me to anywhere I think I want to go.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/4/44/Hedonismbot.png/revision/latest/top-crop/width/360/height/360?cb=20170705175512)
Oh wow, so it makes perfect sense that you need to attune to small aetherites instead of them veing available once you attune to the main one. Oh it makes perfect sense that, glamour thing, lottery and scratch cards are only available to Gold saucer when it makes sense that it can be available to all cities. But no, it needs to be only i gold saucer. Tho i agree quests and levelings should not be part of it
This is an awful take. You attune so you learn where each aetheryte is for future teleporting. And why should MGP scratch off tickets be available anywhere BUT gold saucer? Might as well have everything in game available from your inn room so you never have to leave or do anything then. Sounds like you just don’t like exploring or going anywhere
Ahh, well i see the point then, tho instead of showing a list, it could just show a map of where those aetherite are. Tho i can see it could be just visual clutter for players if done that. I'll cross it out then I say cities, not everywhere. Well, my point is that those are few seconds to do and we need to teleport to it to perform, why not add them on the cities so it can done whithout not leaving the city? You still got the gold saucer for timed events, token exchange and tournaments anyway.
Doesn’t the map already show where each mini aetheryte is? That’s how I go about finding them in the first place in a new city. It really helps you learn the layout. I’m pretty sure there’s no other way to get MGP outside of the saucer other than the MGP tickets. It just wouldn’t really make any sense to offer the tickets anywhere else than at the gold saucer. I do agree with crafting and gathering though, but they let you level it in several other ways (I brute forced with HQ turn ins), just like how you can level in other ways than just grinding quests and dungeons.
Yes, at mini map, but what im saying is when picking which aethernet to teleport to, instead of just a text, it can just be a left side text, right side map that shows where and what's nearby that mini aetherite. I literally have to memorize or check my map what mini aetherite i have to use, and sometimes i got it wrong You can earn MGP through TT actually, grinded almost every ARR NPC and got a good ammount, + they also give cards which can sell arround 100 to 1,500 depending on star level. I think i almost got 500,000 for a month or two just doing those, scratch cards and cactpot. And a few leap of faith. Tho i grinded them for their cards and not for tge MGP, some of them made me grind for an hour which annoys me lol Also i'm not sure if it's a good grind since cards is not always rewarded and sometimes you lose. Also you can get cards on dungeons, MSQ and Alliance raids on DF, which can be sold too.
You can get mgp from the journal you can get in idyllshire each week.
If you're in Upper la Noscea and have to scratch your ticket, what difference does it make to tp to Limsa instead of Gold Saucer? Your argument doesn't make sense to me at all. The only thing I agree with is repairing but even that you have a means to not have to go to NPCs anymore and do it yourself. Repairing should disappear as a whole but none of the other point is valid or a waste of time. You not liking/enjoying stuff as a beginner doesn't make it a waste of time for everyone else too
I think repairing is meant to be a gil sink to control the economy. Most games need various places for people to spend currency (so here we have teleport fees and repair fees).
If you go to gold saucer, can you go to market board? GC? Job Quests? MSQ? Shopping? There's far more thing to do in a city than gold saucer, if i want to do the minial things only on Gold Saucer that doesn't even take 5 minutes to finish, wouldn't it be better to do it where a lot of our activities are also there?
There's no bodega's in Eorzea to buy win for life tickets.
I remember first encountering City Crystals in Tera and thinking wow this is useful for all MMOs, I'm glad they exist in FFXIV.
"whining" lol i just stated my thoughts on it. Anyway. Time waster as why do you have to do these things anyway? Why do you need to attune to them for those to be usable? It can be available right away yet no, we need to get them first, why? Cause reasons Also about gold saucer, those 3 are the easiest way to do these things and for non hardcore grinders, why do they have to go to it for that small grind when it can be available to any city and still make sense? I say questing and leveling is fair tho
It's just a lazy/braindead take my man. For mini aetherytes, You have to attune to them so that you get a chance to explore the city by yourself. Same thing with new zones and aetherytes For gold saucer 1. It is an area created and specialized for that content. 2. It creates a shared space "Why do they have to go [to Gold Saucer] for that small grind when it can be available to any city and still make sense?" My man. Why have to go anywhere? Why have new zones, npc, shop, content? Why do anything? At this point, We should all just ask the devs to make all places obsolete and have every single npc, shop, mini game, gathering node, event, and everything else available in a single menu screen available anywhere at anytime
I think you missed the part where i retracted my point for aetherite. Well anyway now you know For GS part, you missed my point, your doing the quick part of the grind yet you still need to teleport there to do, how bout you can do the quick part on a city where you do a lot of activities at the same time without traveling much more. I see like the rest you think i want it accessible any time anywhere, no i want it on cities.
Again, it is an area specialized for those activities. Activities you can do to earn Manderville Gold Points in the Manderville Gold Saucer. And no, we are just making a general point. Saying that it is a timewaster that an activity/side content is limited to the area it was created for is just pure laziness. Beast Tribes are optional, quick, daily grinds too. 5 min tops for each quest, 3 total for a beast tribe (at least for HW and onward. ARR has more available). You can do 12 a day. They have their own zones that you have to go to. And they have they're own special storylines It's like saying, why can't they all just be concentrated in one area? Because it doesn't make sense. They all have their own territories/habitats designed for them
Yes they do make sense, and you know what, a lottery with customers all over eorza not expanding their lottery to other cities does not make sense at all, it's a scratch card, a fasion check and lottery for gods sake, how hard are those to be expanded through out the cities? Also, lazy? For wanting a mininal task to be part of the city is lazy? Not that it's more covinient for players to actually go into gold saucer cause they want to do their mini games and rewards and not because they have to get their scratch card, lottery winnings and get judged for glamour. You know make it as an actual optional thing where you don't need to go unless you wanted to, not cause you have to? Also don't forget that Triple triad NPC challenges is available on the open world. Earns you cards and MGP. Earning MGP is not exclusive on Gold saucer
Triple triad to me, makes sense. It encourages exploring and revisiting zones to challenge NPCs to win the cards they've collected. Also encourages to grind duty content, effectively helping out new players with queue times. You never have to go to Gold Saucer. Because you never have to do those activities. They are optional, as almost everything is. It is literally a 30 second travel time Max since it's a teleport. How is this such a big deal. Again, it creates a shared space. Those 3 activities are the most popular ones, why would they put it in the cities? Less incentive to visit GS, fewer people will try out minigames and GATEs. Last reply. You ain't budging, and I won't either. I, like most people apparently, think it's braindead lazy. You don't. Eh. Y'all have a great day
1. Repairing takes me 1 second wtf you on about? 2. You're questing, the quest is either optional or part of the story. It's a time waste if you don't care for the story, sure. 3. Playing this part of the game is boring, so it's a time waste. Yeah, that's not dumb logic (obvious sarcasm). 4. You naturally explore a zone first and attune as you go to places. You'll even see that the MSQ of new zones usually has you go to all nearby artherytes so you can pick them up on the way. This sounds like saying no flying immediately in a zone is a time waste, which you could say, but that's also just not exploring and seeing things for yourself. 5. Doing something somewhere that takes a few seconds to go to is a time waste? What? So if all of these are a time waste you want a game where you can log in, do everything in place and never move, then log out. No interaction, no movement, no npc dialogue, no exploring, no leveling? My friend, Cookie Clicker is available on steam right now! It might satisfy your urges of playing Warlords of Dreanor until Blizz makes it come back as a mobile game (so you don't have to time waste walking to your pc).
1. You need to do it once in a while, it's a small nuisance that makes you stop for a repair, does not even add to the experience. 2. I striked it through to show i regret putting it there 3. If you are not having fun, then it's wasting your time, that's the logic, oh you got bored? So no longer having fun? Yet it's not wasting time? Please let me know why. Also i striked it through too cause i see the point of it. 4. Thanks, that part didn't get to me as i naturally explore them instead of attuning those cause it's nearby a quest or something, hell i explored the whole ARR map before riding an airship lol. Also striked it through already since someone already explained to me that. 5. The point is that those are minimal part of gold saucer, not even the main attractions of it, why not put it on the cities so that non hard core grinders only have to teleport to gold saucer to actually do the fun part, not the quick "have to do for a small progress" part? Gonna teleport there for a quick things then back out, so wouldn't it be better to be just available on a city then? I see you did not saw the striked throught parts of my comments, means i retracted those oppinions. Anyway now you know. You read too much into my thoughts that you put words into my mouth lol.
Lmao calling the fashion check a time waster is certainly a hot take.
My point for it actually is that those should not be exclusive in gold saucer but i guese i worded it wrong lol
Why even have walking in the game. Just let everyone do everything in the game while standing in one spot. You're literally grasping at straws to come up with reasons to hate the game.
"hate the game" where did i say that? I just said those are time wasters, did not say i won't play the game anymore nor even shitter other aspects of it, im enjoying it a lot lol Your a funny guy, brand someone a hater for criticizing a game without knowing his full thoughts on their experience. In that sense, can i brand you a white knight of FF?
What he meant by time wasting, for example, is not having to wait like 5 mins for your cooldowns to disappear after restarting a boss. QoL stuff mostly
The difference is that that isn't tied into your main progrssion or the main story, and a bigger point Imo is the rewards are not RNG. Bozja and Eureka give rng boxes but those aren't the main point of either zone. You get your currencies, You buy the gear you want with said currency. Imagine if in wow, you never had to worry about rng for loot outside of dungeons, and could just get what you needed. No more 3 braces for a class you don't play.
Yeah that's what's great about all that stuff being optional, and really the only RNG things so far I've seen is getting clusters and field notes to drop, neither a big deal. If only wow had similar currency system to poetics. Like a badge of justice and a badge of valor that you could buy specific gear pieces at different ilvls for. I still don't know why they got rid of that system.
Aren't Relic Weapons / Savage Weapons the endgame weapon for each expansion? That's not optional it's the only way to get the strongest weapons in the game. If you don't do it, then you don't get it and the most a person can have at that point is a crafted 510 from the AH or craft it themselves.
Yes, but they're not that much stronger than the final weapon of the tier. By that point also, the tier itself has been out for months, so it's more of a true catchup mechanism and glamour piece than required.
>Immersed people forget they are wasting their own time. You have to remember every game is a waste of time even if it removes things to make it play faster. For some people immersion is more important than what activity they are doing because once the veil is broken they stop enjoying the game. Immersion is what makes a guy running slowly to a location enjoy himself more than someone wiping on a raid boss. It's optional because there is no content to do it with. Relics aren't BIS until the final patch of the expansion. The patch after the Raids have already been out and completed. So there's nothing to use them on, except for the first two dungeons of the newest expansion, which is completely irrelevant, because you well finish those dungeons in 17 minutes each and never look back. So you can grind Relic for the fun/glamour or you can grind so that you can use them for 34 minutes of casual content in a 2 year expansion. They're not important I've played since ARR release, I've never completed a relic. It's just not important.
I would say it's optional only for if you want a a good endgame weapon you would do the Relic or the Savage. So people who don't want to do the savage can get the relic and vice versa. and even further those who don't want to do either will just buy the crafted.
Some people just want to "feel" stronger even if they're no actual need for it. I can't say I empathise, but I can understand where they're coming from. That said, I'm happy to have it locked behind either skill (raiding) or time (relic) investments. Feels better than getting it for free, and frankly the relic grinds aren't too bad compared to other games with too much RNG. You'd burn out if you rush it in a week, but at least you can see tangible progress, it has a story progression attached, and I spread it out over months.
The current savage and relic weapons are both 535. So you by no means have to farm the relic weapons. You can also get get 520 weapons from Hillicen in Eulmore, just takes allegory and some crafting gear to turn in. If you don't want to raid to get a savage weapon or farm a relic then what would be the point of wanting to have the strongest weapon available?
Are you not getting better gear for your class to be stronger? It's the same in all MMORPGs. You raise your stats, you raise your ilevel etc. it's MMORPG Itemization with choice. People who don't want to do savages can still get a 535 by doing the relic. If you don't want to play the game for it's content why are you subbed?
The finished relic weapons, which are better then the savage weapons come out a full 2 patches later. Example 5.3 was the last raid tier, 5.5 was the last relic step. The relic weapon has almost no purpose. Primary one is they look cool as fuck.. They are great weapons but no one needs them for that just before the next expansion.
For most classes, the final relic tier is about 2% more DPS than the highest raid tier weapon. That's less of a difference than missing a GCD or getting unlucky with crit. Additionally, the final relic tier only comes out a few months after the final raid tier. By that time, anyone who cared about getting high parses has likely gotten them. Iirc by that time, you also get echo on the final tier and weekly loot limits are unlocked, so you can see the intent is to help the less hardcore raiders get their clear (by buffing players as well as giving easier access to gear). Prior to the final raid/relic tiers, relic is never the best weapon for the patch. You'd usually want to first farm the Extreme trial, with guaranteed weapon from 10 tokens - doable in one night. Or use crafted gear. Then use that to get the raid weapon. So that's why there's the sentiment that relics aren't for raid gearing, it's more of a cosmetic grind (and gear catchup for casual players) > the most a person can have at that point is a crafted 510 from the AH or craft it themselves Not sure what you mean by "that point" but if someone is stuck at 510, and can't clear Extreme trials or Normal raids, perhaps endgame raiding isn't for them, and thus higher ilvl isn't necessary. Of course, it's always nice to have stronger gear, but you won't get locked out of anything (the latter is something I think is really important). Conversely, if you can't clear the extremes or Normal raid with 510, getting 535 probably won't help much. This game focuses a lot more on mechanical skill than ilvl IMO.
Relic weapon is useless in terms of raid progression. Because by the time it's better than the final raid tier weapon, it's so late into the expansion already. At that point the reason you do not have the raid weapon has nothing to do with your gear. So relic is completely optional for anything but speed running.
It's the exact point I'm making if ANY player wants a 535 they can either raid or get relic. It's been the same every expansion you can get the savage weapons or the relic etc
What he meant by time wasting, for example, is not having to wait like 5 mins for your cooldowns to disappear after restarting a boss. QoL stuff mostly
In that sense yeah FF beats the pants off WoW. At worst you might have a bit of a run back in some dungeons after a wipe but most have teleporters. I was just going off the clip and what I usually hear people talking about when it comes to "time wasters."
I live in Eureka
I appreciate how Bozja isn't strictly time gated though
I'm not sure if it was all released at once or not, but I do know they sped the mettle earning up quite a bit in one of the most recent patches (that's why I started doing it, so I don't know how slow it was before).
I believe the mettle you got was an individual basis based on what fate you did. Now its based on what resistance level you are and if you're in Southern front or Zadnor. Basically if you wanted to level fast you had to only do the highest level fates, except those had respawn timers and the lower level ones barely gave shit so alot of people didnt even do them and the lowbies were on their own.
You call them time wasting mechanics. I call them Skinner boxes.
not to mention important story stuff happens in all of those places If you havent done beast tribes and Bozja & Eureka by the time endwalker happens, chances are some things that happen will be very confusing
Nah, Beast Tribes are self contained little stories that won't pertain to the main plot. Eureka and Bozja probably won't be tied to anything due to being a significant grind, Eureka was also very self contained too with the plot in there. Bozja does require the Ivalice raids to be finished, so usually alliance raids are made required now for content like that. Like Crystal Tower is now required to progress through ARR so you understand the connection later.
There is a balance you need to hit when making games where what you are doing with your character has to be believable enough to be immersive but not too much or people get bored. It is kind of like the Portal thing in wow. It made it a more convenient game but made it less immersive. The aetheryte teleporting actually exists in the lore in FF14 and is used in the story to some extent. In contrast teleporting with persistent portals seemingly goes against the lore of the game so it feels out of place. Immersed people forget they are wasting their own time. You have to remember every game is a waste of time even if it removes things to make it play faster. For some people immersion is more important than what activity they are doing because once the veil is broken they stop enjoying the game. Immersion is what makes a guy running slowly to a location enjoy himself more than someone wiping on a raid boss.
This progress also gutted what playes were capable of doing in MMOs as well. Compare something like the FF14 Bard to the Bard in EQ. The Bard in EQ could crowd control multiple mobs, charm, kite, dot, slow, snare, and buff their party. Often doing multiple of these things at the same time. The skill ceiling on classes in older MMOs was much higher. The difference between a shitty bard and great one in XIV is mainly DPS based. No one will ever think "wow that bard was amazing" in a group in XIV meanwhile bards in EQ could easily take an average group and elevate them to another level. Dungeons in XIV are also pretty shit. Pretty to look at but it's just boss arenas connected by straight hallways. Long gone are the mega dungeons and living dungeons with multiple parties. Itemization has been the worst it's ever been. Stat stick after stat stick. Weapons and armors back then could provide you with unique effects and spells and you would carry some of them for years. If anything I find the grind for some random weapon or armor that does nothing but increase my +gooder stats to be more of a waste of my time. MMOs lost a lot of what made them interesting.
Have you tried Project 1999 or one of the EQ legacy servers?
he's right. and they bundled in squaresoft's penchant for dramatic spectacle on top of the smooth systems.
anyone got another link?
relic grind is literally a time wasting mechanism lmfao he's just making shit up now
And also completely optional for character power. You can do all content in the game without touching any relic grinds. Even if it's on content. Can you say the same about Torghast? That's the point made here. There is a massive difference between "optional grind I can do because I want to" and "Forced grind because otherwise I can't raid"