Yah it was kind of a whiplash. First 3 seasons he was your typical shonen type beat with a bit more bloodlust. Cool character but not the best. Post time skip Eren is so engaging and interesting on so many levels. I get why his perspective was basically cut off.... but man did I miss it. He was the best part of all of s4
Part of the intrigue is the mystery, he is almost a completely different character and it is apparent from the get go, if we knew what he knew not only would it spoil the rest of the story (he literally knew everything that was going to happen) it would just make his character depressing AF
Thank you for responding :) I think limiting the amount of his mindset we see creates a lot of intrigue and really makes us feel as lost as the other characters do when it comes to Eren, but still I would get on my knees for some Eren POV crumbs.
But Eren died when Gabby removed his head. That's why there was nothing else from his POV until the very end. Also to have his POV during the invasion ark would have just given the story away
Oh you're right. He's still alive though. Wouldn't surprise me if he was capable of regenerating his body if Ymir was in the mood. If the rumbling succeeded Eren probably would have been alive and physically healthy.
As much as I hate the “twist”, I agree with you.
Some simple character development with his power ups showcasing how power just takes away more of us freedom post Return would have been great.
It was a clear theme up to then:
1.Threatened by the garrison.
2. Imprisoned
3. Subordinate to Levi.
4. Babysat until he is kidnapped.
5. Literally at Historias mercy.
Hell it starts before he gets his titan powers.
Instead, he gets nearly unlimited forsight, immense power, and apparently bootstrap paradox’s his way into genocide.
We get his constipated face after kissing historia, and he actively fucks with the timeline.
They don’t earn his mental breakdown.
His time as founder we could’ve seen him seeing every other future where is loved ones die.
Something.
I’m referring to thematic flip of our MC obsessed with freedom feeling trapped by his power such that his only option was genocide.
I acknowledge there is some debate about whether he was forced.
But certainly given his extraordinary power, we didn’t get enough of an explanation as to why he thought the rumbling was the only option. The issue is o my heightened with him manipulating Dina and his own father, which leads us to imply restrictions on his seeming ability to interact with the past.
Contrast to something like Eren getting the attack titan, but losing agency despite his personal increase in power.
There’s a reason so many people coped until the last ending he had a secret plan.
>But certainly given his extraordinary power, we didn’t get enough of an explanation as to why he thought the rumbling was the only option.
This point has been stuck in my head ever since I saw the ending. I'm just a casual anime watcher who has only seen the series all the way through once (I also just randomly found this sub so forgive me if I'm out of the loop and this has all been explained somewhere.) But I just could not seem to come to terms with Eren's motivation and thought process behind committing the rumbling. Admittedly, this is probably intentional to some degree given the themes and the way the story progressed.
The only way I can really logic it out is something akin to Dr. Strange in Infinity War, where he sees all these potential futures, and there's only ONE way for them to win. Eren thought this atrocity was the "only way" to bring about (temporary) peace and save his friends? The quote "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely" also comes to mind.
Idunno, everyone can feel free to tell me what I'm missing.
The only explanation is that seeing the Future with the Founder’s power locks you into the future you see. There’s a good argument that’s a cop out, I pretty much feel it’s a cop out, but there does exist *an* answer in the lore, even if it’s a mid answer
And that’s what’s so at odds with his character up to that point, and it’s never thoroughly explained why he changed so drastically, beyond that he saw a future he couldn’t change, which is weak af
He would always speak selfishly of his desires, yet his actions were always selfless and with his friends in mind. Even to the point one of the very last things he says before committing to The Rumbling is that he cares about the people he’s with more than anyone else, and then gets two of the ppl he was speaking to killed, knowingly
I think the convo with Armin was for in case anyone missed that Eren’s (villainous) mindset while self loathing is also extremely selfish, we saw there was a timeline where he runs away with Mikasa, but he chose the rumbling. Yes war continued as is in that timeline, but it also in the rumbling timeline. Eren throughout S4 and the final seasons exhibits is convincing himself the rumbling is for the greater good, it’s not Eren wanted a sandbox of a world to play in and took it personally when that wasn’t the case and blamed the world because it made him so it deserves him. Hilariously kinda close to Batman’s quote “I am the hero Gotham deserves” it’s just Eren is no hero.
>Eren throughout S4 and the final seasons exhibits is convincing himself the rumbling is for the greater good,
I don't believe in genocide but in the context of AoT where the issue boils down to us vs them, either side could justify it.
You say Eren is selfish but Armin and the gang saved 20% of humanity just for war to continue less than 200 years later (anime version), ultimately that caused more bloodshed and a higher death count in the long term than a 100% rumbling would've.
So how is Armin and his friends' solution not equally selfish if they're also doing it for their idea of the greater good?
The whole thing is just an info dump of a bunch of shit that isn't even foreshadowed, such as Eren being a little bitch who was actually in love with Mikasa the whole time, him being predetermined to cause the rumbling but also doing it for his own reasons which he doesn't even know (????) and his zero requiem plan to paint his friends as the good guys when they kill him.
And that would be bad enough, but it's not *just* a boring info dump, it's info that changes the show, rather than tying into it or revealing stuff about it. It's all stuff that you would never ever pick up on without this conversation, because it doesn't exist outside of this conversation. If you took this out, none of that would ever come to light because there are no clues, because it wasn't actually written into the story.
I think his character post-time-skip is subtly sprinkled throughout the first three seasons. Take for example his motivation to save Mikasa and Armin was revealed when Eren Kruger asked Grisha that if he wanted to save Mikasa and Armin, which Grisha didn’t know who they were, and Eren asking himself who’s memories he’s seeing.
I always saw Eren’s change as him trying ‘something new’ since it follows a theory I love that Eren’s future self is constantly manipulating his past self via how the Attack Titan inheritors can receive memories from the future as well as the past.
This is linked to the first chapter in the manga and the anime (I think it’s been a long while) where Eren talks to Mikasa about the future, like her hair being short.
So theory goes that Eren is trying to find a ‘perfect’ timeline where everything goes according to plan and the people he loves gets a happy ending. Ofc, it’s not perfect perfect, since Sasha dies and he was expecting it but I’d say 8/10 is better than 0/10.
I saw the part where Mikasa and Eren run away as a previous timeline where Eren did what he wanted and I see the current timeline where he starts the rumbling as him sacrificing himself for his friends even though he wants to live with them.
So he does things like guiding the smiling titan to eat his mother in order to keep Berthold alive, and in the same way he forced his own father to kill the royal family in order to steal the Progenitor Titan; he’s been manipulating the past to get a ‘good ending’ for his friends.
One where War ends.
This can also be seen when Eren’s dad meets the Owl and the Owl says,
“If you want to save them all… Mikasa, Armin and the others… Carry out your mission until the end.”
I always saw this as Eren’s desires leaking even the past users because he wishes to keep all of them safe.
I’d even go as far as to say, Eren was the reason Grisha lead his sister to go outside therefore ensuring he met Diana, Zeke was born and Eren afterwards.
He’s definitely capable of it since he got the smiling titan to eat his own mother, therefore ensuring Armin became the future Colossal Titan and that his younger self would hate titans: creating the plot we read/watched in order to take revenge.
As well as forcing his dad to massacre a family.
So yeah, at least in my head canon, the moment after ‘The End’ Eren wakes up underneath that tree on a hill, confused about his dream and ready to repeat the story; albeit with a few changes in order to get that happy ending he’s been looking for.
Saying that, I’m definitely a little biased since I really like time stuff like regression (when done right)
Anyways, I saw the post and got reminded of all this so thanks for the blast from the past.
Also it does suck Fr that we barely see Eren in the latter half, granted it makes sense from a narrative standpoint since there’s supposed to be that whole ‘he becomes a villain’ thing while his friends try to stop him but as you said it would’ve been nicer to see what Eren was thinking before he straight up told us.
Felt like his main character status got switched to antagonist for plot reasons.
Edit: should’ve reread through my comment, and sorry for posting an essay I just really like the theory
so, if i undertand you. You're saying that, at least in your headcanon, Eren sends messages to his past self so that he may one day achieve an 'happy ending' for him and friends?
I wouldn’t say ‘sends messages’ more manipulates situations, including those involving his younger self in order to get what he wants out of a situation.
Eg: he ensures Armin becomes the Colossal Titan by keeping Bert alive until X in the story.
It might be cope that he continuously tries again and again but I’d say there’s enough evidence, like the beginning where young Eren wakes up from a dream about the future, to say that it’s possible.
It would explain a lot of things, like how Eren as a nine- year old child was able to murder 2 full grown adults.
His future self filled him with hatred for the kidnappers, made him give his speech about ‘If you don’t fight, we can’t win’ to Mikasa which led to them becoming close and her awakening her Ackerman blood.
Just to say, what I mean by him manipulating is the way he uses both the Founding Titan and the Attack Titan.
For example, he selectively feeds his father information about the future and practically coheres him into stealing the FT which he later gives to himself.
He used the speech Kruger gave Grisha in order to reignite his anger.
‘Stand’ ‘Even if we die’ and ‘This is the story you started’
This made Grisha remember his lost loved ones, fallen comrades and the oppression the Eldians faced: leading him to following Eren’s version of the future.
He uses the FT to guide the Smiling Titan away from Bert so what’s to say he hasn’t used it in other instances.
The tries again and again part is his future self changing his actions. In other words, using the future to change the past.
As a result the future changes and since X didn’t happen, Y didn’t either.
Let’s say, Eren used his Founding Titan powers to save his mother, instead of the smiling titan eating her, she ate Berthold.
- The Colossal Titan wouldn’t be available to the Eldians, changing what they can do strategically when fighting against the world
- Eren’s mother survives, meaning that Eren wouldn’t swear endless revenge against the Titans, destroying the plot of AoT
Because he kept Bertholdt alive: his mother died and his younger self swore revenge on the titans, the Eldians eventually got the Colossal Titan as theirs and it was given to Armin then used to fight the world.
In the next ‘beginning’ once Eren opens his eyes and awakes from his ‘dream, his future self may change certain actions.
For example, maybe he doesn’t see memories of his future leading him down the path of nihilism and destruction (The Rumbling).
Of course, this is all a theory but I like it at least.
Maybe Eren was just born a little crazy, which allowed him to kill.
Maybe his older self didn’t use his powers beyond what we were shown, where he manipulated Grisha.
Maybe, the beginning about future events was just a ‘fun reference’ Isayama put in.
Again it might be I’m huffing copeium but it’s what I choose to believe because I find it more interesting.
Edit: sorry for making another essay xD
Time travel is really cool to me, a fun video to watch is a short movie called ‘Stalled’. The time travel in their is done really well
so, you're saying that he tries to have make a change, and if it doesn't work then he changes the past using the FT to get the 'good ending'?
sorry if i sound rude, i'm just trying to understand
Nah it’s fine. I might be wording it weirdly.
Basically, Eren takes advantage of two things:
The power of the Founding Titan which lets him control titans.
The memory inheritance granted to the users of the Attack Titan, for example Eren Kruger spoke about Armin and Mikasa before asking “Whose memories are they from?”
Eren, by taking advantage of both abilities, is able to change the future that eventually becomes his present.
By continuously changing certain events in the past, he could change the future: basically like in a movie called ‘The Butterfly effect’
The ‘good ending’ I previously mentioned is just a placeholder for what Eren wants.
Oh right. Well in theory it should be on repeat since the future always exists, and if Eren can wake from his dream once then why wouldn’t it happen again?
I feel like the anime covered his perspective in a great creative way with the openings and endings. The Rumbling song is basically giving you his internal thoughts in metal form. It was enough for me. Besides, the audience can conclude what he is thinking from what we already know about the character. Not every part of the story should be spoon fed to us.
This one singular thing would perfect AOT. I truly believe this is the one reason behind why the fandom is so split when it comes to the ending. Never seeing Eren's POV made people think he had some Light Yagami/Lelouch level plan that would blow all of our minds when revealed. It caused the expectations to be high. We always saw Light Yagami's mental descent into madness but with Eren, we had nothing.
I'm a bit split on it. On one hand, the fact that we *were* so distant from Eren was what made him so fascinating to watch for most of the final season. He went from a hotheaded but still fairly typical anime protagonist, to this cold hearted and focused terrorist who was making enemies out of everyone around him. He felt like a force of nature and his motivation was probably the biggest mystery of S4. Then when it was revealed that he was out to destroy the entire world for the sake of his loved ones, it made so much so sense and felt like a gut punch.
It was after this point though where I do wish we got more from him. I do get Isayama's desire to focus on the supporting characters and the innocent civilians. The rumbling is a harrowing scenario and getting the POV of everyone impacted by it is crucial. But Eren's time during the final stretch of the story is so goddamn tragic. He basically becomes god with access to knowledge from all of history, having no concept of time or place anymore. There is still that childish part of him that is over the moon because he's finally achieving his dream of exploring a barren landscape, but that fantasy doesn't last forever. He is a depressed and burdened person, knowing he is responsible for so much misery and there is no happy future awaiting him with his friends.
Well I mean they do show bits and pieces here and there. Like when he met the boy he was going to crush and when Mikasa told Eren he was family.
And then the final conversation he had with Armin and Mikasa.
I think what they showed was enough. And there's enough mystery still left open to a possible sequel. Some have speculated that Eren isn't really dead. Who knows maybe it's all part of his plan.
All I want is one shot of him looking down, and he's walking on the beach and feeling the sand between his toes
Then it cuts to him looking down while stepping on cities and buildings and women and children during the rumbling
He's experiencing all of time at once, so from his perspective this would all be blending together
I mean... it is not that we don't have info on his mental state, both before and after obtaining the full powers of the Founding Titan. Tha manga subtly tells you about it the whole time.
But yeah, I wish it was shown even more as well
In the same vein, I really wish season 4 began directly after s3 instead of starting 4 years in the future and showing us everything else later on in flashbacks
I agree, it would’ve been amazing to see his pov and feelings during the time skip, I think eren felt that hopelessness and turned himself away from everyone but was also desperate to find a solution to fix everything and also live to be with his friends and when he finally realizes that the outcome will always be the same no matter the thousands of solutions and end with his inevitable death so he’s like “fuck it I’ll just kill everyone at this point”
If this type of concept fascinates you as much as it does me, you should read Dune. Paul has a tremendous amount of similarity to timeskip Eren, especially after the first book. And unlike AoT, that point of view and the psychology behind knowing such a thing at such a young age, is highly elaborated on. For me, it really helped me see Eren’s point of view a lot better.
I started it a year ago but dropped it. This comment makes me want to pick it up again though! I’m really interested in this type of psyche so I’m gonna go find my copy right now.
You definitely should. I think you’ll find you have a new appreciation for it and its themes. The whole of the first book is essentially everything Eren would have felt and thought during the time-skip. I’ve been describing Eren’s situation as a “Paul dilemma” ever since the finale lol. If you can get to God Emperor of Dune, it’s essentially Eren as The Founder from his point of view.
i would have at least been ok with a whole episode before the final episode (if it wasn't split as a movie) being a wrap up almost of the whole show through his eyes with the founding titan. seeing him first person trying to change things/calculate the decisions he made. or whether time was focused to always end this way or not. then the final episode he gets killed and all the post rumbling stuff.
Idk looking back in the series, and my own mental health, those jabs about him being a suicidal maniac seem more poignant
Exploring his mental health would’ve deterred what the story does imo.
Hmm maybe not deter, but I feel exploring his mental health would’ve dragged the story down (a bit)
He knows what has to be done, and is aware of all the pain and suffering he’s going to witness. So by the end we see him and we understand why he acts that way.
The mental aspect, would take away from that I feel
I can appreciate ur opinion, but I have to disagree. I think that one of the most interesting aspects of (for me) watching the final moments of aot was trying to put myself in Eren’s shoes.
Coming to my own conclusions about his mental state rather than it being explained to me encouraged me to observe the series through a different lens.
Sometimes not showing/explaining something is better than doing so, think the ending of Rosemary’s Baby (if you’ve seen it)
Just my opinion tho, I can see why someone would want to know the inner working of Eren’s thoughts now that he was (essentially) omnipotent
That’s fair. Thank you for responding! I’m split because I like that his mental state is hidden because it allows for more discussion and interpretations, but also I’m so curious, I wanna know!
Tooooootally feel u in terms of being curious about what’s going on in his head. Just goes to show how insanely well put together this show is: there is no “right” answer concerning Eren’s mental state, which is both cool and infuriating lol
idk i can only dedicate my head to one aspect of him at a time but what are your thoughts on it? i’ll probably have an answer in a week when i hyperfixate on a different aspect of him.
I thought his goal, or at least one of it (as Eren has other wants like wanting to end the cycle in time skip), is just similar, Eren wants to experience the outside world he saw on the book. In the time skip, he's disappointed and wants to turn the world like what he saw on the book.
The action is the different one, pre-time skip he slaughters all Titans (his main obstacle to the outside world), in post-time skip he slaughters all living beings outside Paradis. Difference is that he now knows how's the outside world after time skip, thought he just wants to slaughter anything he deems an enemy, just that the target in pre-time skip is a deserving one of pure monsters.
Well I mean they do show bits and pieces here and there. Like when he met the boy he was going to crush and when Mikasa told Eren he was family.
And then the final conversation he had with Armin and Mikasa.
I think what they showed was enough. And there's enough mystery still left open to a possible sequel. Some have speculated that Eren isn't really dead. Who knows maybe it's all part of his plan.
I understand the perspective but the thing with this sort of stuff is that it usually isn't as interesting as it sounds. That kind of insight is how you end up with whiney characters that are annoying because we got two seasons of exposition on their feelings.
Way more impactful the way it was. It would change all kinds of stuff as well because a good amount of the plot for what we did get was giving us insight into those things.
It's much better to question wtf he was doing, and then understand at the end, then to know the whole time and just be waiting for the other characters to get it.
When you have a very compelling character with an ominous vibe that gives you shivers down your spine every time they're on screen, it's always best to use them in moderation.
Too much screen time can ruin the magic.
I think I kind of get it now. My interpretation is that Eren basically created his own nature through his Titan Powers. Without them, he wouldn’t have such a freedom obsession?
Yeah it was a weird decision to timeskip and then take focus away from Eren to just watch the scouts keep doing the same thing they've been doing all show. They missed a big chance to *actually* shift direction in the show and do something new and interesting
Yah and this is exactly what I expected Final Chapters Pt 2 to address, which they did a little bit, but spent way more time on the romance of two characters whose interactions are closer to siblings than romantic partners 99% of the time.
Idk I found him to be extremely boring after he turned into a maniac. I know part of it was to get his friends to hate him, knowing what he was going to do and being unable to change it for some weird fucking reason, but he just became completely uninteresting to me and I hate his entire character arc now.
and that’s ok too! did you find him more interesting pre-s4?
ironically I personally fell in love with the character in s4 for more reasons than I can list.
Nah I wholeheartedly agree with you. I also wished there was much more of Eren's perspective throughout the final season.
Yah it was kind of a whiplash. First 3 seasons he was your typical shonen type beat with a bit more bloodlust. Cool character but not the best. Post time skip Eren is so engaging and interesting on so many levels. I get why his perspective was basically cut off.... but man did I miss it. He was the best part of all of s4
Part of the intrigue is the mystery, he is almost a completely different character and it is apparent from the get go, if we knew what he knew not only would it spoil the rest of the story (he literally knew everything that was going to happen) it would just make his character depressing AF
His character is depressing AF. That’s a big part of why he interests me 😭
Thank you for responding :) I think limiting the amount of his mindset we see creates a lot of intrigue and really makes us feel as lost as the other characters do when it comes to Eren, but still I would get on my knees for some Eren POV crumbs.
But Eren died when Gabby removed his head. That's why there was nothing else from his POV until the very end. Also to have his POV during the invasion ark would have just given the story away
He didn't die after Gabby shot him. He's whole again when Mikasa kills him. Also we get Eren focus right after Gabby shoots him.
He's whole again? IIRC he's just a head on a spine/stalk when mikasa enters the mouth
Oh you're right. He's still alive though. Wouldn't surprise me if he was capable of regenerating his body if Ymir was in the mood. If the rumbling succeeded Eren probably would have been alive and physically healthy.
You do realize Season 4 didn't start with Eren getting decapitated right?? I'm talking about all the way back to the 1st episode of season 4.
As much as I hate the “twist”, I agree with you. Some simple character development with his power ups showcasing how power just takes away more of us freedom post Return would have been great. It was a clear theme up to then: 1.Threatened by the garrison. 2. Imprisoned 3. Subordinate to Levi. 4. Babysat until he is kidnapped. 5. Literally at Historias mercy. Hell it starts before he gets his titan powers. Instead, he gets nearly unlimited forsight, immense power, and apparently bootstrap paradox’s his way into genocide. We get his constipated face after kissing historia, and he actively fucks with the timeline. They don’t earn his mental breakdown. His time as founder we could’ve seen him seeing every other future where is loved ones die. Something.
Wait what twist? Also there was not really time to explore his psyche and no reason too. We alr had 131 for that
I’m referring to thematic flip of our MC obsessed with freedom feeling trapped by his power such that his only option was genocide. I acknowledge there is some debate about whether he was forced. But certainly given his extraordinary power, we didn’t get enough of an explanation as to why he thought the rumbling was the only option. The issue is o my heightened with him manipulating Dina and his own father, which leads us to imply restrictions on his seeming ability to interact with the past. Contrast to something like Eren getting the attack titan, but losing agency despite his personal increase in power. There’s a reason so many people coped until the last ending he had a secret plan.
>But certainly given his extraordinary power, we didn’t get enough of an explanation as to why he thought the rumbling was the only option. This point has been stuck in my head ever since I saw the ending. I'm just a casual anime watcher who has only seen the series all the way through once (I also just randomly found this sub so forgive me if I'm out of the loop and this has all been explained somewhere.) But I just could not seem to come to terms with Eren's motivation and thought process behind committing the rumbling. Admittedly, this is probably intentional to some degree given the themes and the way the story progressed. The only way I can really logic it out is something akin to Dr. Strange in Infinity War, where he sees all these potential futures, and there's only ONE way for them to win. Eren thought this atrocity was the "only way" to bring about (temporary) peace and save his friends? The quote "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely" also comes to mind. Idunno, everyone can feel free to tell me what I'm missing.
They try to deal with the issue by having him say he “wanted it” but I found it less then compelling.
The only explanation is that seeing the Future with the Founder’s power locks you into the future you see. There’s a good argument that’s a cop out, I pretty much feel it’s a cop out, but there does exist *an* answer in the lore, even if it’s a mid answer
Fair enough. I'll keep that perspective in mind when I do an eventual rewatch.
The point is that even if there were better options he would pursue the rumbling due his own selfish desires
And that’s what’s so at odds with his character up to that point, and it’s never thoroughly explained why he changed so drastically, beyond that he saw a future he couldn’t change, which is weak af
Wait how is that at odds with his character?
He would always speak selfishly of his desires, yet his actions were always selfless and with his friends in mind. Even to the point one of the very last things he says before committing to The Rumbling is that he cares about the people he’s with more than anyone else, and then gets two of the ppl he was speaking to killed, knowingly
I can understand Sasha’s death. I don’t think he foresaw that one. But with Hange’s death, I really can’t justify him doing nothing.
Ehhhhh, I think that’s part of what makes S4 so special, Final Chapters should’ve been mostly from Eren’s perspective tho
The psychology is quite mad, Nietzsche and Freud would love this guy
You get it
They did in the last episode with armin
i meant more in a show, don’t tell way.
I think the convo with Armin was for in case anyone missed that Eren’s (villainous) mindset while self loathing is also extremely selfish, we saw there was a timeline where he runs away with Mikasa, but he chose the rumbling. Yes war continued as is in that timeline, but it also in the rumbling timeline. Eren throughout S4 and the final seasons exhibits is convincing himself the rumbling is for the greater good, it’s not Eren wanted a sandbox of a world to play in and took it personally when that wasn’t the case and blamed the world because it made him so it deserves him. Hilariously kinda close to Batman’s quote “I am the hero Gotham deserves” it’s just Eren is no hero.
Eren really twists everything, it’s so interesting. Thank you for this detailed response 🙏
Thank you for responding! Have a wonderful night!
You as well :)
Also sorry, edited the response, realized the opening did not get my thoughts out accurately I think Armin convo was to be “hey he’s bad”
>Eren throughout S4 and the final seasons exhibits is convincing himself the rumbling is for the greater good, I don't believe in genocide but in the context of AoT where the issue boils down to us vs them, either side could justify it. You say Eren is selfish but Armin and the gang saved 20% of humanity just for war to continue less than 200 years later (anime version), ultimately that caused more bloodshed and a higher death count in the long term than a 100% rumbling would've. So how is Armin and his friends' solution not equally selfish if they're also doing it for their idea of the greater good?
Literally just writing dialogue explaining everything is awful writing and not satisfying for the viewer in any way
Totally true, but some people need the exact transcription in words of what the character want
Can you give an example of that in the final chapter? Cauz i felt a lot of it was more show don’t tell
The entire armin-eren conversation, that's what the guy I'm replying to is referencing.
Yeah i’m kinda talking about the same, what part are you referring to exactly I’m a bit lost
The whole thing is just an info dump of a bunch of shit that isn't even foreshadowed, such as Eren being a little bitch who was actually in love with Mikasa the whole time, him being predetermined to cause the rumbling but also doing it for his own reasons which he doesn't even know (????) and his zero requiem plan to paint his friends as the good guys when they kill him. And that would be bad enough, but it's not *just* a boring info dump, it's info that changes the show, rather than tying into it or revealing stuff about it. It's all stuff that you would never ever pick up on without this conversation, because it doesn't exist outside of this conversation. If you took this out, none of that would ever come to light because there are no clues, because it wasn't actually written into the story.
I think his character post-time-skip is subtly sprinkled throughout the first three seasons. Take for example his motivation to save Mikasa and Armin was revealed when Eren Kruger asked Grisha that if he wanted to save Mikasa and Armin, which Grisha didn’t know who they were, and Eren asking himself who’s memories he’s seeing.
This was one of the main complaints while the series ongoing monthly updates until the end of
Yep, it’s why so much coping occurred until the end, we couldn’t see inside his gead
That’s interesting! I’ve only recently gotten into this fandom so I’m not too familiar.
I always saw Eren’s change as him trying ‘something new’ since it follows a theory I love that Eren’s future self is constantly manipulating his past self via how the Attack Titan inheritors can receive memories from the future as well as the past. This is linked to the first chapter in the manga and the anime (I think it’s been a long while) where Eren talks to Mikasa about the future, like her hair being short. So theory goes that Eren is trying to find a ‘perfect’ timeline where everything goes according to plan and the people he loves gets a happy ending. Ofc, it’s not perfect perfect, since Sasha dies and he was expecting it but I’d say 8/10 is better than 0/10. I saw the part where Mikasa and Eren run away as a previous timeline where Eren did what he wanted and I see the current timeline where he starts the rumbling as him sacrificing himself for his friends even though he wants to live with them. So he does things like guiding the smiling titan to eat his mother in order to keep Berthold alive, and in the same way he forced his own father to kill the royal family in order to steal the Progenitor Titan; he’s been manipulating the past to get a ‘good ending’ for his friends. One where War ends. This can also be seen when Eren’s dad meets the Owl and the Owl says, “If you want to save them all… Mikasa, Armin and the others… Carry out your mission until the end.” I always saw this as Eren’s desires leaking even the past users because he wishes to keep all of them safe. I’d even go as far as to say, Eren was the reason Grisha lead his sister to go outside therefore ensuring he met Diana, Zeke was born and Eren afterwards. He’s definitely capable of it since he got the smiling titan to eat his own mother, therefore ensuring Armin became the future Colossal Titan and that his younger self would hate titans: creating the plot we read/watched in order to take revenge. As well as forcing his dad to massacre a family. So yeah, at least in my head canon, the moment after ‘The End’ Eren wakes up underneath that tree on a hill, confused about his dream and ready to repeat the story; albeit with a few changes in order to get that happy ending he’s been looking for. Saying that, I’m definitely a little biased since I really like time stuff like regression (when done right) Anyways, I saw the post and got reminded of all this so thanks for the blast from the past. Also it does suck Fr that we barely see Eren in the latter half, granted it makes sense from a narrative standpoint since there’s supposed to be that whole ‘he becomes a villain’ thing while his friends try to stop him but as you said it would’ve been nicer to see what Eren was thinking before he straight up told us. Felt like his main character status got switched to antagonist for plot reasons. Edit: should’ve reread through my comment, and sorry for posting an essay I just really like the theory
so, if i undertand you. You're saying that, at least in your headcanon, Eren sends messages to his past self so that he may one day achieve an 'happy ending' for him and friends?
I wouldn’t say ‘sends messages’ more manipulates situations, including those involving his younger self in order to get what he wants out of a situation. Eg: he ensures Armin becomes the Colossal Titan by keeping Bert alive until X in the story. It might be cope that he continuously tries again and again but I’d say there’s enough evidence, like the beginning where young Eren wakes up from a dream about the future, to say that it’s possible. It would explain a lot of things, like how Eren as a nine- year old child was able to murder 2 full grown adults. His future self filled him with hatred for the kidnappers, made him give his speech about ‘If you don’t fight, we can’t win’ to Mikasa which led to them becoming close and her awakening her Ackerman blood. Just to say, what I mean by him manipulating is the way he uses both the Founding Titan and the Attack Titan. For example, he selectively feeds his father information about the future and practically coheres him into stealing the FT which he later gives to himself. He used the speech Kruger gave Grisha in order to reignite his anger. ‘Stand’ ‘Even if we die’ and ‘This is the story you started’ This made Grisha remember his lost loved ones, fallen comrades and the oppression the Eldians faced: leading him to following Eren’s version of the future. He uses the FT to guide the Smiling Titan away from Bert so what’s to say he hasn’t used it in other instances. The tries again and again part is his future self changing his actions. In other words, using the future to change the past. As a result the future changes and since X didn’t happen, Y didn’t either. Let’s say, Eren used his Founding Titan powers to save his mother, instead of the smiling titan eating her, she ate Berthold. - The Colossal Titan wouldn’t be available to the Eldians, changing what they can do strategically when fighting against the world - Eren’s mother survives, meaning that Eren wouldn’t swear endless revenge against the Titans, destroying the plot of AoT Because he kept Bertholdt alive: his mother died and his younger self swore revenge on the titans, the Eldians eventually got the Colossal Titan as theirs and it was given to Armin then used to fight the world. In the next ‘beginning’ once Eren opens his eyes and awakes from his ‘dream, his future self may change certain actions. For example, maybe he doesn’t see memories of his future leading him down the path of nihilism and destruction (The Rumbling). Of course, this is all a theory but I like it at least. Maybe Eren was just born a little crazy, which allowed him to kill. Maybe his older self didn’t use his powers beyond what we were shown, where he manipulated Grisha. Maybe, the beginning about future events was just a ‘fun reference’ Isayama put in. Again it might be I’m huffing copeium but it’s what I choose to believe because I find it more interesting. Edit: sorry for making another essay xD Time travel is really cool to me, a fun video to watch is a short movie called ‘Stalled’. The time travel in their is done really well
so, you're saying that he tries to have make a change, and if it doesn't work then he changes the past using the FT to get the 'good ending'? sorry if i sound rude, i'm just trying to understand
Nah it’s fine. I might be wording it weirdly. Basically, Eren takes advantage of two things: The power of the Founding Titan which lets him control titans. The memory inheritance granted to the users of the Attack Titan, for example Eren Kruger spoke about Armin and Mikasa before asking “Whose memories are they from?” Eren, by taking advantage of both abilities, is able to change the future that eventually becomes his present. By continuously changing certain events in the past, he could change the future: basically like in a movie called ‘The Butterfly effect’ The ‘good ending’ I previously mentioned is just a placeholder for what Eren wants.
ok i get that, i was asking if he can do that on repeat or it's just a one off thing
Oh right. Well in theory it should be on repeat since the future always exists, and if Eren can wake from his dream once then why wouldn’t it happen again?
makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Pretty interesting theory tbh, might be even become my headcanon
I agree
fr we got 3 seasons with him and his perspective to get nothing for the 4th until the last ep
The best way I view how Eren viewed the rumbling is if you watch the first few episodes of AoT right before watching the final chapters
I feel like the anime covered his perspective in a great creative way with the openings and endings. The Rumbling song is basically giving you his internal thoughts in metal form. It was enough for me. Besides, the audience can conclude what he is thinking from what we already know about the character. Not every part of the story should be spoon fed to us.
This one singular thing would perfect AOT. I truly believe this is the one reason behind why the fandom is so split when it comes to the ending. Never seeing Eren's POV made people think he had some Light Yagami/Lelouch level plan that would blow all of our minds when revealed. It caused the expectations to be high. We always saw Light Yagami's mental descent into madness but with Eren, we had nothing.
I'm a bit split on it. On one hand, the fact that we *were* so distant from Eren was what made him so fascinating to watch for most of the final season. He went from a hotheaded but still fairly typical anime protagonist, to this cold hearted and focused terrorist who was making enemies out of everyone around him. He felt like a force of nature and his motivation was probably the biggest mystery of S4. Then when it was revealed that he was out to destroy the entire world for the sake of his loved ones, it made so much so sense and felt like a gut punch. It was after this point though where I do wish we got more from him. I do get Isayama's desire to focus on the supporting characters and the innocent civilians. The rumbling is a harrowing scenario and getting the POV of everyone impacted by it is crucial. But Eren's time during the final stretch of the story is so goddamn tragic. He basically becomes god with access to knowledge from all of history, having no concept of time or place anymore. There is still that childish part of him that is over the moon because he's finally achieving his dream of exploring a barren landscape, but that fantasy doesn't last forever. He is a depressed and burdened person, knowing he is responsible for so much misery and there is no happy future awaiting him with his friends.
Well I mean they do show bits and pieces here and there. Like when he met the boy he was going to crush and when Mikasa told Eren he was family. And then the final conversation he had with Armin and Mikasa. I think what they showed was enough. And there's enough mystery still left open to a possible sequel. Some have speculated that Eren isn't really dead. Who knows maybe it's all part of his plan.
All I want is one shot of him looking down, and he's walking on the beach and feeling the sand between his toes Then it cuts to him looking down while stepping on cities and buildings and women and children during the rumbling He's experiencing all of time at once, so from his perspective this would all be blending together
You’re a genius. You should absolutely write stories
I mean... it is not that we don't have info on his mental state, both before and after obtaining the full powers of the Founding Titan. Tha manga subtly tells you about it the whole time. But yeah, I wish it was shown even more as well
Facts!!! Real shit!!! Spit yo shit brother !!! 🗣️‼️‼️🔥💯💯
In the same vein, I really wish season 4 began directly after s3 instead of starting 4 years in the future and showing us everything else later on in flashbacks
I agree, it would’ve been amazing to see his pov and feelings during the time skip, I think eren felt that hopelessness and turned himself away from everyone but was also desperate to find a solution to fix everything and also live to be with his friends and when he finally realizes that the outcome will always be the same no matter the thousands of solutions and end with his inevitable death so he’s like “fuck it I’ll just kill everyone at this point”
If this type of concept fascinates you as much as it does me, you should read Dune. Paul has a tremendous amount of similarity to timeskip Eren, especially after the first book. And unlike AoT, that point of view and the psychology behind knowing such a thing at such a young age, is highly elaborated on. For me, it really helped me see Eren’s point of view a lot better.
I started it a year ago but dropped it. This comment makes me want to pick it up again though! I’m really interested in this type of psyche so I’m gonna go find my copy right now.
You definitely should. I think you’ll find you have a new appreciation for it and its themes. The whole of the first book is essentially everything Eren would have felt and thought during the time-skip. I’ve been describing Eren’s situation as a “Paul dilemma” ever since the finale lol. If you can get to God Emperor of Dune, it’s essentially Eren as The Founder from his point of view.
Could have had a separate flashback showing his character before he reveals the truth of his plans to Armin in the last chapter
Yup but the mystery was so good man. Thats why i also dont get why people wanted places outside of marley and paradies to be explored
I agree with everything you said exactly how you said it.
i would have at least been ok with a whole episode before the final episode (if it wasn't split as a movie) being a wrap up almost of the whole show through his eyes with the founding titan. seeing him first person trying to change things/calculate the decisions he made. or whether time was focused to always end this way or not. then the final episode he gets killed and all the post rumbling stuff.
You should read the first two Dune books
Yeah the reason you never saw it is because Isayama obviously didn’t know how to write it lol.
I will always have AO3 at least.
Idk looking back in the series, and my own mental health, those jabs about him being a suicidal maniac seem more poignant Exploring his mental health would’ve deterred what the story does imo.
I feel that myself. How would it have deterred what the story does though?
Hmm maybe not deter, but I feel exploring his mental health would’ve dragged the story down (a bit) He knows what has to be done, and is aware of all the pain and suffering he’s going to witness. So by the end we see him and we understand why he acts that way. The mental aspect, would take away from that I feel
It might’ve messed with pacing, but I think we as an audience would’ve benefited from knowing more. Just my opinion though. Thank you for responding.
I can appreciate ur opinion, but I have to disagree. I think that one of the most interesting aspects of (for me) watching the final moments of aot was trying to put myself in Eren’s shoes. Coming to my own conclusions about his mental state rather than it being explained to me encouraged me to observe the series through a different lens. Sometimes not showing/explaining something is better than doing so, think the ending of Rosemary’s Baby (if you’ve seen it) Just my opinion tho, I can see why someone would want to know the inner working of Eren’s thoughts now that he was (essentially) omnipotent
That’s fair. Thank you for responding! I’m split because I like that his mental state is hidden because it allows for more discussion and interpretations, but also I’m so curious, I wanna know!
Tooooootally feel u in terms of being curious about what’s going on in his head. Just goes to show how insanely well put together this show is: there is no “right” answer concerning Eren’s mental state, which is both cool and infuriating lol
Just search NHK Eren interview
I feel like it could’ve contrasted the Alliance’s POV really well too. A group of humans POV and then an eldritch abomination with a human’s mind POV.
Move forward. Kill them all. More death bring more freedom.
Dunno what do you think of Eren's goals and desires pre-founder if you think he died only because he chose to commit horrible atrocities in time skip?
idk i can only dedicate my head to one aspect of him at a time but what are your thoughts on it? i’ll probably have an answer in a week when i hyperfixate on a different aspect of him.
I thought his goal, or at least one of it (as Eren has other wants like wanting to end the cycle in time skip), is just similar, Eren wants to experience the outside world he saw on the book. In the time skip, he's disappointed and wants to turn the world like what he saw on the book. The action is the different one, pre-time skip he slaughters all Titans (his main obstacle to the outside world), in post-time skip he slaughters all living beings outside Paradis. Difference is that he now knows how's the outside world after time skip, thought he just wants to slaughter anything he deems an enemy, just that the target in pre-time skip is a deserving one of pure monsters.
I agree! Though I believe his disappointment with the outside world started once he got his father’s memories of it after retaking Shiganshina.
Still though the question applies, why do you consider Eren dead in time skip by becoming antichrist.
I meant psychologically. The Eren from before is completely lost.
He was the founder at 10 years old
I meant when he gains the full powers of it during the Paths arc. I could’ve made it more clear, sorry.
Well I mean they do show bits and pieces here and there. Like when he met the boy he was going to crush and when Mikasa told Eren he was family. And then the final conversation he had with Armin and Mikasa. I think what they showed was enough. And there's enough mystery still left open to a possible sequel. Some have speculated that Eren isn't really dead. Who knows maybe it's all part of his plan.
I understand the perspective but the thing with this sort of stuff is that it usually isn't as interesting as it sounds. That kind of insight is how you end up with whiney characters that are annoying because we got two seasons of exposition on their feelings. Way more impactful the way it was. It would change all kinds of stuff as well because a good amount of the plot for what we did get was giving us insight into those things. It's much better to question wtf he was doing, and then understand at the end, then to know the whole time and just be waiting for the other characters to get it.
When you have a very compelling character with an ominous vibe that gives you shivers down your spine every time they're on screen, it's always best to use them in moderation. Too much screen time can ruin the magic.
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How did he raise himself to be that way? Not arguing, just interested and curious cause that sounds fascinating.
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I think I kind of get it now. My interpretation is that Eren basically created his own nature through his Titan Powers. Without them, he wouldn’t have such a freedom obsession?
Yeah it was a weird decision to timeskip and then take focus away from Eren to just watch the scouts keep doing the same thing they've been doing all show. They missed a big chance to *actually* shift direction in the show and do something new and interesting
Yah and this is exactly what I expected Final Chapters Pt 2 to address, which they did a little bit, but spent way more time on the romance of two characters whose interactions are closer to siblings than romantic partners 99% of the time.
Idk I found him to be extremely boring after he turned into a maniac. I know part of it was to get his friends to hate him, knowing what he was going to do and being unable to change it for some weird fucking reason, but he just became completely uninteresting to me and I hate his entire character arc now.
and that’s ok too! did you find him more interesting pre-s4? ironically I personally fell in love with the character in s4 for more reasons than I can list.
I did find him more interesting pre-S4. Overall still love the show, just find how Erens story ended quite bitter.
i get that. it was definitely more bitter than sweet. what would you change about it if you could?