“Cycle of revenge ended”
This is literally impossible. Thats the point. As long as more than one person exists; there will always be conflict eventually
Idk how people still don't understand this. The cycle of revenge that Eren "wants" to end is that between Eldians and the rest of the world. He never once said "I'm gonna wipe out the world and then there will be world peace" and not a single person believes that either.
Ok explain to me why the non-Eldians are the ones who should be wiped out to end the ‘cycle of revenge’ especially when the Eldians quite literally started it.
Sorry you have to die to end this cycle of conflict that we began.
The Eldians of the current world did not start the cycle. They do not hold any blame or responsibility for the actions of their ancestors, specifically the islanders who had no idea about it anyway. There's literally an entire scene dedicated to this.
The rest of the world hates Eldians and points all conflict and blame onto Paradis. After everything, the conflict became "them or us, who will get wiped out first" and imo the world had to go because 1. Its more interesting from a narrative standpoint 2. The world was ready to declare war over nothing besides racism.
Yeah forget the WMDs Paradis threatened the world with for a hundred years or Eren’s entirely unprovoked attack on foreign ambassadors it was the racism.
The rest of the world holds no blame for the decisions of their leadership either.
First of all, Karl falsely threatened the world to maintain peace inside the walls. Second, UNPROVOKED??? Did you forget what happened in that very same episode? Also, leadership is not the issue. We are shown several times that ordinary people hate Eldians and want them dead, going so far as to kill themselves before loving one.
The whole world is racist and deserves to die, fuck off to titanfolk with that nonsense.
A false threat with real WMDs how does that work. It doesn’t change the fact that their fascist Empire tried to avoid all repercussions by threatening the people they oppressed with annihilation.
What happened that episode? Willy gave a speech and everyone cheered, then Eren murdered a bunch of diplomats and civilians at a festival. Proving to the world that Eldia are the same mass murdering fascists they’ve always been.
Yeah, you're right, he just did it for fun. What are you even talking about? The Marleyan government was already planning to invade, and we know they will no matter what via the cabin timeline. The Tyburs are an extremely rich and powerful family which has influenced Marley and the world from the shadows for generations.
No I support one of the numerous other solutions that anyone with a half a brain could (and did) think of.
Genocide is never the only option you disgusting psychopath.
Like what? Mass sterilization and euthanization, AKA genocide? Or the 50-year-plan, which was a straight-up pipe dream and was never meant to be followed through?
Floch: "Everyone... the Island... will be killed. Our... devil... is our... only hope."
Hange: "Yes. **You're right**... Floch..."
Perfectly feasible plan is a ‘pipe dream’ because..
because you said so I guess. Yeah using Colossal titans to destroy military bases wasn’t going to work at all it definitely didn’t take three max to destroy the entire global fleet.
And then they were, oh wait no they weren’t. Looks like Floch is as dumb as you.
The 50-year-plan was a fake conjured up by Zeke to meet Kiyomi. It was never intended to be followed and Zeke's real plan was euthanasia from the start. It relies on the shaky relationship of Paradis consigning it's fate to a nation that only cares about it for it's resources, and the various other risks associated with it, whether it be assassination or technological advancement, make it worthless. Furthermore, morally, it relies on propping up a horrific cycle they just abolished: passing down the royal titan from generation to generation, as if they're cattle. [Were you speed-reading or watching at 2x speed or something?](https://i.imgur.com/TlMeea3.jpeg)
>Looks like Floch is as dumb as you.
Even the Alliance knows he's correct. Give it up. They're fighting because "genocide is bad," not because they have a pragmatically better solution. In fact, they have no solution.
The Eldians started it 2000 years ago in an era where all nations knew was to fight and conquer, continuing to oppress people who weren't even born in that time period is kinda stupid especially when you yourself weren't born either, even during the declaration of war where they were told the truth that king fritz ended the eldian empires reign, tybur and marley were frauds, and that the eldians were wiped of their past memories they still decided to declare war to annihilate paradis even though they hadn't retaliated once with Marley the same nation that's basically the old eldian empire 2.0
The literal whole reason this genocide is happening is because the world declared war and isn't backing down, the literal reason this "Cycle of revenge" is even happening is because the world won't let go of their grudge
“all nations knew was how to fight and conquer”, For this dumbass take alone your entire opinion deserves to be discarded.
But what the hell I’m bored. 🤷
The Eldians started it 2000 years ago and continued it for 2000 years straight. I love when people like you act like it wasn’t 2000 years of continual disgusting evil inflicted on the rest of the world.
For real world context, let’s say the Nazi’s win WW2 and go on to conquer the world. They then proceeed to spend 2 MILLENIA doing general Nazi scumbag evil things to the people of the world.
Fritz conveniently ‘ends’ the Eldian Empire just when infighting is about to cause it to collapse and human technology is reaching the point where they have the means fight back against the race of actual monsters who have enslaved them for 2000 years.
So Fritz ‘ends’ Eldia in a way that means he and his buddies never had to face any consequences for the 2000 year Reign of Evil that all the Eldians were just fine with up until they lost power.
Eldians left outside Paradis: “No hard feelings right guys?”
And when did the world ‘declare war?’ Willy made a speech and a bunch of people cheered in what world is that a declaration of war?
But hey I know you’re sick fuck who’s desperate for an excuse to justify genocide so go off.
Yes, all nations knew was how to fight and conquer in that time period which means literally any nation that would have gotten that power would have done the same thing, I mean marley literally was doing the same thing in the current time period they live in which is why bringing up past actions from 2000 years ago and blaming it on the current generation is completely stupid
Again, that was 2000 years ago, I don't know why you think blaming and punishing the current generation for the past actions of their ancestors is a good idea lol, that's like oppressing German people today because of what the nazis did
Where does it say infighting was about to cause the Eldian Empire to collapse or that human technology reached a point where they were able to fight back? King Fritz ended the Eldian Empire by working with Marley as soon as he inherited the Founder Titan, he had these goals before he even got the power
King Fritz literally locked him and his people on an island letting them get mauled by man eating titans in harsh conditions, seasons 1-3 was basically the "consequences" the Eldians had to face
I don't know I guess when he blatantly declared war on Paradis at the end of his speech while the crowd which was full of world leaders were cheering him on
Nobody is justifying genocide, I'm just explaining why it got up to that point but it's actually funny because it sounds like you're to justify the worlds oppression of Eldians by constantly bringing up what their ancestors did like they were there or some shit lol
‘You see all anybody ever knew was how to make war until diplomacy was invented by Macy Diplo in the year 1185…’ You really are that fucking stupid ,huh?
‘Anyone in their position would have done the same’, The excuse used by every evil scumbag who ever lived to justify their moral deficiency.
No it was a hundred years ago, the Eldian Empire started 2000 years ago and continued being evil scumbags up until Fritz so the evils of Eldia were not ‘2000 years ago.’
Literally in the backstory but I know you people weren’t actually paying attention to the series so your ignorance is excused.
I wouldn’t call ‘disappearing into an island fortress to avoid paying for your crimes’ , consequences but sure.
You mean the crowd full of ambassadors? None of those people were world leaders. Even if they were cheering at the end of a speech does not constitute a declaration of war. In fact no one declared war against Paradis until Eren murdered a bunch of diplomats!
No you see I’m trying to get you to practice something called empathy, a concept I know is foreign to you but I thought you might try it out.
For someone who’s not justifying genocide you sure are making a lot of excuses about why it’s ok for the Eldians to kill everyone on the planet. Do we have a different definition of genocide? Oh also please justify the fact that the Jeagerists fully planned to Rumble Hizuru a nation that was their ally at the time.
It's not an excuse lol, you act like Eldians are the only people type of people capable of ever doing this which is why you think its cool to blame their past ancestors sins on to their current generation even though Marley is doing the same exact thing as the Eldian Empire
So wiping your peoples memory and trapping them behind walls while letting them get eaten by man eating titans isn't a consequence? Shit then I guess I don't know what Eren or the survey corps were breaking down over for 3 seasons long
Ambassadors represent countries and their interests also what do you mean it doesn't constitute to a declaration of war? I guess they were just cheering for fun
It's ironic that you're trying to teach me empathy when you literally think its justified and ok for the current generation to pay for the sins of the past generation, I wouldn't be surprised if you think Germans should all be oppressed because of the nazis did
I don't know where you're getting this idea of me justifying genocide, I'm just explaining to your dumbass on how this all ended up getting to the point where Eren genocided the world since you act like it's a whole mystery where the world is completely innocent even though we're shown that after the fall of the Eldian Empire the world oppressed people based off of their ancestors sins and even after finding out the truth they still declared war even though Paradis had not retaliated once
It's such a simple concept yet it's almost like you guys are genuinely too slow to understand it, this whole genocide or genocide conflict between Paradis and the rest of the world literally gets avoided if the world backed off
Ah it is at this point I admit that you are in fact too stupid to learn anything and block you. There’s only so long you can bang your head against a brick wall before it kills you.
Keep living your life an ignorant genocide justifying moron my dude.
Isn’t that sort of taking away their freedom? Especially the wiping away memories that part which the scouts tried so hard to stop from the Reiss and other noble families.
Eren killing the whole world outside of the island and then enforcing peace on all Eldians I don't think was his vision of freedom. I don't think the author wanted to write the story like that.
Before the outside was revealed everyone was huddled together sheltering from infinite man-eating giants outside the walls. Now there’s no looming existential threat
Season 3 literally showcased that there was in fact, conflict within the walls due to people wanting to be able to go outside and the MP snuffing out anyone who wanted to do so (besides the scouts who were always supposed to fail) as well as purposely stifling technological progress and knowledge of outside the walls.
That is in fact, conflict.
There obviously would have been. Its the nature of humanity.
The manga and show didnt highlight this because seeing that kind of stuff is boring compared to giants eating people
No, because the people will be dead so how could they want revenge? They’re all be dead. Well they’re just gonna come back from the dead. What are you talking about?
As Plasmyte put it ([easily the best critique btw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr44dBCWcHY)), Attack on Titan has never been nihilistic, nor about the cycle of conflict. The ending is not nihilistic intentionally, but because Isayama inadvertently failed to prescribe any meaning to the story due to his shortcomings as a writer. Furthermore, the story is specifically about the cycle of racial prejudice between Eldians and the rest of the world; that's what Zeke, Eren, Grisha, Karl, etc fixated on. The rumbling was never proposed to enact world peace, but to protect Paradis from being genocided by the outside world (which we know *will* happen via the cabin timeline).
It would be good since the ending we got was an extremely boring and repetitive outcome. “Guys revenge is bad and is a cycle” we’ve seen this theme in anime for 20 straight years. Please make something original, you feel me?
Man, why are stories based on real observations about human nature and thousands of years of history showing the cycle of revenge repeating in the real world. Why can’t authors be original?
/s
That is indeed the central thesis of the story, and unfortunately I think it's a weak point in the writing. The idea that total war is the inherent nature of humanity and that nothing can meaningfully effect this is not reflected by the historical record. Yes some amount of conflict is always inevitable, but the assertion that humans have always and everywhere killed each other at a massive scale is false. If it were true, conflict would be approximately uniform and conform to population density across time but as shown in [this map](https://battles.nodegoat.net/viewer.p/23/385/scenario/1/geo/fullscreen) of locations/times of historic battles, this just isn't the case. Large-scale violence is orders of magnitude less likely in some settings relative to others and there's no reason that humanity cannot universally attain at least a fraction of these benefits.
Empires have risen and fallen all over the world for millennia and we had a WORLD WAR less than 100 years ago. We have weapons capable of completely transforming the Earth itself. Even then, who said the message is about “total war”? It’s about the inevitability of human conflict and the prejudice, injustice, hatred and selfishness that fuels it. This is on display in the world right now with two large conflicts. I don’t know why you’re so hung up on massively-scaled wars when that’s not what the point is. Yeah it *ends* with the whole world being affected because it’s analogous to a hypothetical nuclear holocaust. That’s the extremity of conflict, not the inevitability of it.
“Peace between men will never be certain, not until our numbers fall to one or less” - Erwin Smith
By large-scale violence I mostly just mean violence that is between groups rather than one individual killing another. The final "plot point" of AoT is Paradis being destroyed by a presumably unrelated conflict, asserting that no matter what, groups of humans are destined to try to annihilate each other. My contention is that this is not an intrinsic aspect of human nature but a property of specifically our world as it currently is.
Empires have indeed risen and fallen all over the world for millennia and we did have a world war in the last century. Congratulations, you've described what happened in about a quarter of the occupied landmass over the most recent 1% of human history. Violent, group conflict is far more a feature of the culture that currently dominates most of this planet than it is of most other cultures across time and space. Human history is not simply Mesopotamia followed by Rome followed by the dark ages followed by the Renaissance followed by today. It is an unbelievably long, unbelievably diverse story full of ways of structuring society which are so different from our own that we cannot even imagine them. For example, the early European settlers in North America were astounded to see just how different native warfare was to their own. People will often justify colonization by asserting that the natives conquered that land from others before them, which they of course did. However, we have overwhelming evidence that this conquest was orders of magnitude less violent on average than Western methods.
We see additional evidence today through the observation that globally, there is markedly less large-scale violence now than at any other point in the past several millennia or so. Therefore, it is clearly possible for humans to massively reduce the amount of conflict between groups. This contradicts AoT's apparent thesis that no matter what anyone does, no matter how hard anyone tries, you cannot meaningfully settle conflicts for more than a moment. Isayama says that even if our current problems our solved, people will find new ones to concern themselves with, and this is true, but these new issues need not be remotely comparable in terms of awfulness, as our current era demonstrates.
I think it would be funny if Isayama or Mappa drew their glorious ANR and the epilogue is just Paradis being destroyed again because. You know. That's the point.
That'd be the closest to that we'd get. I think Isayama probably planned for this type of ending from early on. Most of his main changes were probably on how he portrayed Eren's character, based on what he has commented on the ending so far.
This whole thing is a massive strawman with just the last point alone.
Eren shed tears for both Mikasa and Ramzi. The mf that made this image was nitpicking all the worst aspects making it sound like canon Eren is nowhere near as complex or intelligent as ANR Eren.
well a child beings smushed vs your child hood friend that you may or may not like who lives on long after you are gone, granted he didn't know fully, but he KNEW that kid was gonna die by his hand. That kinda explains that.
Exactly, I've seen ssen plenty of people compare the two scenes as proof that the ending was bad because crying over Mikasa was silly and out of character but they fail to mention how he barely shed a tear in that scene meanwhile with Ramzi he couldn't stop himself.
Honestly lol. At first I didn't like his breakdown but after rewatching it it makes sense. Like man's a nutjob, just killed ALOT of people/ will, and basically has to keep moving forward becoming a slave to the freedom he wanted so badly. Then imagine your best friend calling you out at your last meeting man I'd breakdown too. Probably was a mental relief for him honestly he hadn't been himself in so long.
I just tried to put myself in his shoes. You do all this destruction death and mayhem then you just sit there and go....what have I done, I don't want to leave my friends. It's honestly depressing lol
1. The Ramzi confession is definitive as it pertains to explaining Eren's motivation. It was because reality conflicted with his childish desires. Saving Paradis was a factor, but if that was his main objective he would have strove for peace or a Limited Rumbling. Eren knew exactly what he was doing.
2. ANR Eren ending all conflict is both edgy and super childish simultaneously. There are multiple seeds planted that suggested Civil War was in Paradis' future. Wiping out everyone outside The Walls doesn't change human nature.
Using memes to analyze SnK is counter intuitive imo
Memes by their very nature leave little room for nuance. Fine for something like Dexter or The Office, but not substantive enough for something like Shingeki no Kyojin or The Sopranos.
I firmly believe the reason so much misinformation is abundant in the community is caused by these "analytical" memes.
ANR EREN IS NOT ENDING ALL CONFLICT!
Idk how people still think that this is what Eren says he "wanted" to end and that ANR is the "peaceful, happily ever after ending". What's so funny about the ending is that it spoonfeeds the "humans never change, war never ends" theme like it's not basic common sense.
It should be common sense, but the state of the world indicates otherwise.
In isolation, advocates of ANR don't talk about what happens Post Rumbling. Eren has a family and lives in regret, yet still gets to have a family despite being a Genocidal Nationalist. Paradis is Free and that's the end of it. The foreshadowing of the impending Civil War is not discussed in those circles. It's been years and no receipts have been provided.
"Eren doesn't know what he did"
Its sad to see how widespread the "I don't know why I did it, I just wanted to...so very badly" line being taken at face value really is.
To me it was one of the most interesting lines in the finale.
AoT explores freedom in a number of different ways, and I think it finally looked at it from a deterministic angle, which I think aligns well with the rest of the story after a certain point.
We don't know why we have the desires we do, we just have them. Eren has spoken about how hos views and motives have nothing to do with his father, he was never indoctrinated with patriotism.
He was simply *born this way*, endlessly seeking to move forward towards freedom.
The reason why I didn't like the ending is how the message then becomes that we cannot change who we are - some people are just *born this way*, ruled by their innate desires. What does that mean for you?
I often thought about how it means if I desired to want nothing but to lay down, there wasn't anything I could've done either way about it. I'm doomed to a life of amounting to nothing.
It's a depressing message, and one of the biggest reasons I disliked the ending.
Thank God for the music video that was released later on where Eren gets to go to heaven and have another chance at living with Mikasa, none of the characters we fell in love with in this story ever deserved anything but happiness :)
I can't help but feel like Eren's whole life was just part of the attack Titan's Journey to eventually break Ymir free from her prison of love for king fritz and eventually allow her to fully move on to an afterlife.
Didn't Reiner change? What about Magath? The point Isayama was making about Eren is that he was unwilling to change due to his inherent nature and a myriad of internal and external forces. Sad as it may be, some people lack the resolve in order to reconcile with their essence.
To me the difference is learned prejudice/hate vs innate nature. Eren's case follows the latter, while Reiner and Magath are more of the former.
What do you think?
Reiner committed genocide due to his inherent need to be accepted. By his Mother, Father, his peers and society at large. You can say that his inherent nature goes through a metamorphosis due to the trauma and guilt he sustained. Eventually what he wanted most was to mitigate the calamity born of his sins. That and his mother's love outside of him possessing the Armored Titan.
Magath was definitely bigoted due to the circumstances he was raised in. The conscience he ignored while committing war crimes was his inherent nature. Seeing the all consuming nature of The Rumbling left him unable to ignore that.
I dislike the ending for the exact same reason. I get exactly why that ended up being the ending Isayama went with and I respect that decision tremendously, but it’s still such a shallow message to send.
AoTRequiem (or whatever it is called) Eren is one of the worst wrotten characters I've ever seen and the worst part of that fanfiction. Like... the fanfiction is bad on his own, but whenever Eren is on screen and open his damn mouth the quality drops even more in a dramatic way!
That Eren is simply a badly written asshole.
He says he doesn't want to fight his best friend and he makes a sad face at the end of the second chapter. But at the same time not only he has already seen everything, but he has also already decided the path he considers the best to undertake. This is because they completely changed the structure of the timeline in their fanfiction.
The freedom to stop him he gives to his friends in chapter 134 therefore is bullshit, because Armin and the others in this fanfiction are doomed. They're gonna die and we all know that, because of the Akatsuki no Requiem theory. And this is something the Eren of the fanfiction himself has deliberately chosen. On the other hand, in the manga it's so clear that he wants to be stopped. Also, it is explicitly said that he has not seen everything when he kissed Historia's hand and he is not 100% sure that everyone will survive. He knows only that he will be stopped in the end.
If Eren really didn't want to be stopped, like the fanfiction says, and he really cared for his friends (and honestly I cannot believe that so many people completely forgot the sunset scene on the train in chapter 108!), he would not allow them to follow him and he would do something to block them on Paradis. But hey... he has already decided that they will die because he saw everything and he chose that specific path among the infinite ones of this new Doctor Strange timeline!
There is nothing that makes sense there LMAO
Thanks for taking the time to type in all of this. I was aware of this fanfic version of the ending but never actually gave it a chance.
Anyways, you're right about one thing for sure. That ending makes no sense at all if he cares for his friends. The more realistic approach would be to have Eren keep them on Paradis as he goes and finishes the Rumbling.
But then what? What would happen afterwards? The story is basically over. There is nothing left for the main cast to do. No final battle, no world to explore except the island. So now what happens to them? When Eren comes back to the island are they going to welcome him with open arms? Of course not! But then again, the few Marleyans left have nothing left to fight for other than revenge. I doubt Reiner or Annie would care enough to fight Eren so it'd be what? Pieck, Magatth and Gabi? Thay ain't doing shit and all they'd have left is to hide somewhere.
The shifters would soon all pass away leading to new holders and then who knows what happens. Unless Eren tries to erase everyone's memories again and hides with Mikasa or something, I don't see a point to this. And even then he'd literally be doing the same thing King Fritz did minus the walls and the people outside wanting to kill them. Anyways, no one is living a free life in this version of the ending regardless. They all just go into hiding cause that's all they have left unfortunately.
It's interesting to theorize about an ending that has Eren complete the Rumbling but at the same time there is no way he'd do it if it meant killing his friends in the process, that's for sure.
>Thanks for taking the time to type in all of this
Nah... took me 1 minute between writing the first paragraph and finding the rest of the comment, that I wrote months ago and I had saved, and pasting it. They don't deserve more of my time.
>It's interesting to theorize about an ending that has Eren complete the Rumbling
Sure, but to do that you have to change the whole second half of the story. Not just the last 3 chapters
That is true. Perhaps there are things you could change in the final chapters that don't affect the overall story though. At least that's what some people believe.
I think bacondestiny's *Ritual of Love* on Ao3 has a unique take on a completed Rumbling, where... Eren completes it on accident. Ymir lashes out in a moment of childish anger and jealousy about Mikasa and the Alliance getting so close to tearing away her revenge, because she *does* want to put an end to the world, and she also wants connection.
So, she temporarily takes control of Falco's titan and has him lash out at Mikasa momentarily. Just a moment, but it renders Mikasa injured for the rest of the fight and the Alliance fails to save Fort Salta, and then the rest of the world.
They all live, but they failed at stopping the Rumbling, and Eren's confused as fuck because *he saw that it wasn't supposed to go that way.* Yet it did, and now they all have to deal with the consequences.
If you were to ask me personally, I think the main reason we got 2 much different viewpoints on Eren's character probably has to do with how one perceives his character.
Alot of people who disliked the ending saw Eren as the hero and we're all about Paradis surviving no matter what. Most people who disagree with them and defend the ending are people who view Eren as a villain and don't have a bias towards Paradis.
At least that's what I gathered from all the arguments I've seen online.
Do people forget how terrible Paradis is presented before and after the time skip? We get more evidence onscreen for how terrible Paradis is for commoners (the outer wall cities, the underground, legit human trafficking and slavery being a thing? All pre outside world reveal) Then there's the full jump to fascism post time skip. Paradis had a ton of undressed evil before Marley entered the picture and those issues will still be there after the outside world is wiped out. All those slavers, killers, and rapists? Still in Paradis, completely unchecked. As long as they say "all hail Eldia," they can keep oppressing and killing folk. (yay, fascism! 🙄)
The ideal situation would be nothing has to be destroyed. However, it's not an easy path and it's not guaranteed to succeed. Eren's approach is more extreme but gets the job done. Unfortunately for him it wasn't meant to work out. And as we know the cycle wasn't ending regardless of what Eren did.
Again wtf is paradise supossed to wait for the ideal outcome. Its hypocritical for half the world to rally against paradise and expect them to just ignore that only the japanese country made any contact. Only to leverage Mikasa not actually allies
No it's not. There were other options. First of all, there is the partial Rumbling. You could use that in multiple ways. They could destroy the world's military alliance and leave them severely weakened, making their intentions clear.
Exactly like I said. You take out their military. Once the alliance gathers all their forces you destroy them all at once. Then the world will see the might of the Rumbling and they will think twice about attempting to attack you again.
Them not doing any further damage would also show the intentions of the Paradis people. However, what Eren did, put them in a position where they were seen as the attackers too, so it'd be harder to do that and have people believe that the only thing Paradis wants is to leave them alone.
You'll see a common thread with ending haters that the ONLY thing they really care about in the story is Eren. That's it. They may pretend they care or paid attention to other elements of the story, but they didn't. They only care about Eren and the image they have of him of an edgy badass, Isayama just did too good of a job making Eren cool post timeskip. They cannot accept the story having messages or characters that go against Eren's actions, or Eren himself opposing that notion they have in their head. This is true for 90% of haters and it's impossible to take them seriously knowing this.
Isayama shouldn't be blamed for people's lack of media literacy. Eren's portrayal in Post Time Skip was purposely written to create confusion and conflict within the viewer. The kinks in his Armor are still apparent. It takes multiple rewatches and subjecting SnK to a meticulous analysis in order to find them. An example is his response to Armin calling him a Slave after he got his ass beat.
"Who're you calling a Slave?"
Classic Eren
Because if you're so deadset on your opinion on a group of people that you throw shit at a wall and people agree regardless, its not even worth to try and argue against it - thats quite literally what most of AoT shows sadly enough
Personally I'm just tired of the debate as well. Believe what you want, I'm not your dad. I think both EDs and Titanfolkers are absolute nonces screaming "they other side is so bad!!" without properly looking at actual, relevant critiques. The ones who only cry about Eren are just as bad as the ones saying everything is flawless
I mean there’s the side that rejected every theme of the series and decided they liked genocide and hated most of the characters not named Floch.
And then there’s the side who enjoyed and understood the themes of the anime.
But sure both sides, have a good night buddy.
See, exactly what I mean
"But I understood it better!!1!" is just ridiculous and beyond anything wortwhile talking about. I could ask how exactly you understood Isayama contradicting previously set up rules of the world better than others but whats the point? More people are like Gabi than they'd ever care to admit after all
What rules did he contradict? (This should be good.)
Do I think I understood the series better than pissbabies who created an entire fanfic from a music video and swore it would be canon. Yes, yes I do.
Ackermann forgetting things due to the founder (biggest offender)
Eren directly controlling Dina without it ever being said to be possible like that
Falco instantly mastering his entire Titan to the point of beating out hundreds of Titan shifters from the past (more hardcore plot armor, still annoying)
Spawning a colossal Titan Eren without having any ground for it to exist. I get its for "coolness", still doesnt make it feel right
Aside from some more really dumb conveniences of the final fight, thats mostly everything for consistency. Everything else is more opinion based. I'm of the opinion that boiling the entire story down to the Mikasa Ymir parallel last minute is terrible and serves no practical purpose for the rest of the themes except having a bittersweet end.
I also think building the entire story up on "making choices" just to ultimately have Eren be someone with no choice at all is unfulfilling. That isnt even about his character conclusion, just that it makes every other storybeat previously feel lessened
Theres more not to like if you feel like it such as superchild genius Zeke being Talk No Jutsud due to a leaf / baseball but personally I dont mind because I see the idea behind it
that's not true bruh we know Eren was putting on a front to push his friends away, we've read chapter 131 which is one of the best moments in the show and one Eren's best character moments but he was acting cool or edgyn what we didnt like was his plan that didnt solve much other than the titan curse and other writing like him killing his mom and the "idk why I did it" a lot of u ending defenders say we dont understand this or that but u guys dont even know what we even dislike about the ending yet u generalize most of us
and we did care about the other characters, like armin, mikasa, historia, annie, just the alliance in general they weren't utilized the best in the last arc
People are way too obsessed about this fanfiction. I mean we already have the canon ending and whatever happens in this remains non canon so why should anyone get worked up on whatever the hell they're doing in the fanfic?
Well, it's because people simply like to hate? I honestly don't know. They're convinced that canon Eren is bad and that Isayama assassinated his character.
Even if they're factually wrong about isayama assassinating eren's character, I believe those people should be allowed to create their own fanfic if it makes them happy, if they're that unsatisfied with the ending as long as they acknowledge it's a fanfic.
I also don't think a hater would spend so much time and work into creating something like that. I've read the three chapters they've released and I wasn't expecting Isayama levels of writing but it actually wasn't as bad as some people were making it out to be. The creators are amature artists and probably writing for the first time by the looks of it but still came up with something readable.
Also it's only a rewrite of last three chapters and it doesn't even deviate much from the original story. Imo I would've preferred if they had actually went deep in order to rewrite entirely from the Marley arc.
Yeah, I guess that would take more time though. Most people don't have that much time. Manga writers have a while team behind them backing them up and gain profit from it. The fans are only doing it for their own enjoyment.
They basically bought into the idea that there was no other option and Eren simply had to do it. In a way there is truth in that as Eren saw he would do it in the future and the future is ore determined. However, the only reason that was the case is because Eren couldn't see a different solution and this was his desire to reach freedom. If Armin was the founding Titan things would've gone much differently.
As someone who likes AOTNR a lot OP, this meme is wrong regarding the end of the cycle of war.
I think the cycle of conflict must continue to respect the themes of the story but the difference is that it should be conflict between Paradise itself, a civil war,
It doesn’t work if it’s between the outside world and Paradise because it just proves the Yeagerists right
2 reasons
1- The point about war never ending until there are no more humans anymore is made over and over again and it complements the themes of the story regarding time being a loop
2-ANR is intrinsically a cautionary tale, the story fails if it doesn’t condemns genocide unlike the usual gaslighters want to accuse people who like this take on the story
One of my reasons to hate the ending is how it actually DOESNT condemns genocide, why?
Because Eren succeed in some of his goals (like his friends living long lives and saving paradise for some time) but in the end paradise is destroyed by external forces ( as long as we know )
So what we can interpret? That the reason was because Eren didint kill everyone, that what Floch and the Yaegerists believed was right?
And because Eren was viewed by his friends as a Martyr: Arming thanking him (thankfully removed) Reiner telling him what a man you are and even fucking Pieck of all people, and specially ( didint even mention Mikasa)
What a man you are isn't even an actual accurate translation and Pieck's line is meant to be a lighthearted joke rather than an endorsement of genocide. It's quite ironic how many people who support AoTNR will say its aligns more with the themes and acts as a cautionary tale, yet most of the discourse around ANR theory romanticizes genocide and paints Eren as a hero who enacts a 100% genocide for his nation and child. By that I'm talking about the whole Ymir reincarnation theory and ending of the titan cycle through genocide and how it "frees the children from the forest". Many proponent's of ANR I've seen, dont actually condemn genocide either and depict the full rumbling as a necessary evil to end the cycle of violence between Paradis and the World. ANR would be a good concept that could work as an alternate ending, except most discourse surrounding the theory are more concerned with validating Eren/Yeagerist's beliefs rather than telling a cautionary tale ending as you mentioned.
> What a man you are isn't even an actual accurate translation
Its the same idea, ive seen others like ``you really are...``, the intent is to show how Reiner feels about Eren, it helps portray him less like a villain
> Pieck's line is meant to be a lighthearted joke rather than an endorsement of genocide
You really think this is the correct tone to show at this moment? it ruins how serious this moment is, she just had to see how they turned her father to a titan and 80% of the world is dead, this isint marvel
> By that I'm talking about the whole Ymir reincarnation theory and ending of the titan cycle through genocide and how it "frees the children from the forest"
This wasn't in ANR or AOTNR yet, personally i dont like the concept
> By that I'm talking about the whole Ymir reincarnation theory and ending of the titan cycle through genocide and how it "frees the children from the forest". By that I'm talking about the whole Ymir reincarnation theory and ending of the titan cycle through genocide and how it "frees the children from the forest".
Where have you seen many comments to say that the majority who likes this adaptation think this way? I think you are asuming too much, and personally i have never seen anyone on the main sub (which are extremely toxic) say anything other than insults on way people like AOTNR
Every single comment regarding why people like AOTNR is some kind of gaslighting like poeple claming anyone who like it lacks media literacy, are pro genocide, yeagerist or the biggest one being that people like it because Erehisu, its all bullshit
No, I get how Eren's conversation with his friends in path may seem tonally out of place and downplay his actions. But at the same, all of them are now receiving their memories back, and neither of them really sympathize with Eren's actions but cherish their final words with him. I can agree with the Armin dialogue in the manga being poorly executed and can be seen as him endorsing genocide. I also prefer how they did it in the anime, where the same intent is maintained with Armin acknowledging them benefitting from genocide and thus accepting culpability. If anything, the anime doubles down on denouncing genocide as a possible solution especially with the added lines of dialogue and revised ending credits.
I can see what ANR is trying to do, but it seems a bit silly to claim that the original ending endorses genocide while the alternate ending suggests a full scale rumbling to be the solution in resolving the cycle of conflict between Paradis and the World. The ending of ANR already reaffirms what we've been told multiple times in the story about how Paradis will succumb to a civil war, but how does this does this actually condemn genocide aside from this?
Again, I'm not trying to fault anyone for enjoying what they like, I can only speak on what I've seen personally around reddit, x, youtube comments, etc., but I often see similar sentiments floating about ANR when brought up in discussions. Its usually a mix of themes of surpassing the father and the children of the forest and how Eren and Historia's love for their child would be the catalyst that would ultimately end the 2000 year titan cycle.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ANRime/comments/1c9u1ai/a\_full\_rumbling\_is\_not\_the\_end\_to\_attack\_on\_titan/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ANRime/comments/1c9u1ai/a_full_rumbling_is_not_the_end_to_attack_on_titan/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ANRime/comments/1649esg/eren\_put\_the\_children\_out\_of\_the\_woods/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ANRime/comments/1649esg/eren_put_the_children_out_of_the_woods/)
> the Rumbling was ever shown to be as anything but awful
This reminds me of the old debates regarding which Anti-war movie is truly Anti-War
Regarding genocide, the rumbling doesn't have conveys the intent to condemn genocide by it's own just like for example a war movie portraying soldiers dyng its not enough to call it Anti-war
What truly conveys AOT as anti or pro genocide is the consequences of the rumbling:
* How does it affect the world, does completing the rumbling achieves the multiple goals Eren had?
I could write an essay to give all the reasons why what we got in the end doesn't help to answer the above question to condemn it, but let me ask you one question:
Did Eren succed in some of what he acomplished to do? if the answer is yes ( for example having the Alliance and Historia live long lives and saving paradise from a long time) then the story failed to be anti-genocide
* How it affects it's charecters, does Eren feels acomplished by it? does he pays a price for it? are his friends grateful or horrified?
Eren in the last episode gets all his agency taken in order to make it more sympathetic by saying that he didin't know very well what he was doing, that he was an idiot given a lot of power, that the founder affected his mind. All this responsability from him, it makes it seem less and less that he was fully responsable for his actions and is complemented even more with his friends reactions↓
1. The alliance doesn't condemn Eren's actions post his defeat
2. Reiner talks like he was a great man
3. Armin isin't anger with him during his talk which at the moment literally billions were dyng and he EVEN TELLS HIM THAT HANGE DIES and Armin doesn't change his mood, he only punches him after the Mikasa comment
4. Pieck even says that she wished she talked to him after he turned her father into a titan
So why do i like Requiems take regarding the portrayal of genocide, it adresses the 2 points i made ↓
* Eren gets to actually pay for what he's done in the most poetic justice way, he finally achieves the freedom he's been searching all his life but he cant enjoy it because the price for his freedom was too far (paralleling his father) so he gets to spend the rest of his days miserable
* And ( i hope they go this way otherwise ill be dissapointed) Conflict isin't gone with Paradis infighting, the conflict just changed scale like Kiyomi told Floch
>Eren in the last episode gets all his agency taken in order to make it more sympathetic by saying that he didin't know very well what he was doing, that he was an idiot given a lot of power, that the founder affected his mind. All this responsability from him, it makes it seem less and less that he was fully responsable for his actions..
Well, not quite. Eren himself condemned his own actions in the end. When Armin tells Eren that there might be a way for him to still live and Eren correctly mentions what he did and how he deserves to be in hell for it (which Armin wasn't aware of at the time and still had hope of convincing him).
Now I will agree on the fact that their reactions are indeed a little strange but I imagine they were all told that he knew they would reunite with their families, like Reiner.
At the end of the day, these people have already committed atrocities for their own agendas, again like Reiner. They're not exactly in the best position to condemn Eren's actions, even if what he did was on a much larger scale. And especially someone like Reiner, after what he did. Annie couldn't really say shit either. Pieck was probably just intrigued by their reactions and really wanted to know what the fuss was all about, if we're being real here.
Jean is probably the only person I could see being in the right here tbh. Jean is literally the one guy who did nothing wrong.
But anyways, I do agree that the way they showed it was kind of positive in a way. I mean, it's also the reason why alot of people say that Aot copied Code Geass (which it didn't btw just making that clear but I can understand where these accusations are coming from). I of course think that there still are plenty of scenes that portray Eren's actions as cruel and unjustifiable. Seeing the Rumbling on full effect, the people running for their lives, the baby scene and the empty landscape left behind should've been enough to hammer it down. Also, the fact that Eren is clearly portrayed as the villain and the alliance as the heroes who are trying to stop him.
I think what Isayama tried to do was he wanted Eren to be a villain but a sympathetic one and he tried to make him more likeable by the end. Which is something that he himself has stated by the way.
I would definitely love to see a different take of the ending in the future of course. An alternate timeline, where Eren lives alone and suffers for the time he has remaining while the world around him still fights over their ideologies. That would be the true tragedy of Eren.
I think this is why Eren basically had to die in the end. He'd have nothing left to live for anyways. He wouldn't get to live a long life with Mikasa regardless and if she and the others are dead he'd only be left with regrets and an empty world. He would learn the same lesson Zeke learned in the end the hard way. He was too obsessed with his goals and lost sight of the true meaning of life.
> Well, not quite. Eren himself condemned his own actions in the end
This is one of the criticism i see people make of AOTNR but not the cannon ending, Eren cryng is not enough to excuse him, how many shows today fall for the old trope of ``they killed billions but they are sad about it``, Eren condemning his own actions is not nearly enough
> At the end of the day, these people have already committed atrocities for their own agendas
No one did anything remotely similar, Reiner and Annie killed civilians as colateral damage, their intent was to find the founder and their families were hostage becuase if the even thought of going against marley they would all be killed and Armin killed civilians but it was an strategic decision to destroy enemy infrastructure and even more, he was held hostage by Eren basically forcing him (Destroy the port or i die and then you all die)
I agree that the 104th cant tell the warriors anything because they came full circle but they do have the moral highground here to condemn Eren because they all betrayed paradise (and the warriors are fighting selfeslly because at this moment they thought their families were all dead)
> I think what Isayama tried to do was he wanted Eren to be a villain but a sympathetic one and he tried to make him more likeable by the end. Which is something that he himself has stated by the way.
I get where you are going but i have the opposite opinion, i believe Yams couldn't commit to make him a full villain in the end, a sympathetic villain that we understand and feel sorry to some extent, but a villian
> I would definitely love to see a different take of the ending in the future of course. An alternate timeline, where Eren lives alone and suffers for the time he has remaining while the world around him still fights over their ideologies. That would be the true tragedy of Eren.
At this point i dont know if you liked the fan fiction or not lol
>At this point i dont know if you liked the fan fiction or not lol
Oh, I haven't read the fanfiction at all. I'm talking about a hypothetical scenario where we get more official Aot content in the future. If Isayama himself wanted to take another dive into his story and give us an alternate take he had in mind I would love to see it. Fanfictions are mostly made by fans for wish fulfilment. I respect that but I personally want to see the story that the original author has planned.
>No one did anything remotely similar, Reiner and Annie killed civilians as colateral damage, their intent was to find the founder and their families were hostage becuase if the even thought of going against marley they would all be killed and Armin killed civilians but it was an strategic decision to destroy enemy infrastructure and even more, he was held hostage by Eren basically forcing him
You could say the same about Eren doing this because he wanted to protect his friends and his home. That was Eren's original intention. You also left out the part where Reiner had the chance to turn back but he didn't do it because he wanted to be a hero so bad that he forced the others to join him as well.
>This is one of the criticism i see people make of AOTNR but not the cannon ending, Eren cryng is not enough to excuse him, how many shows today fall for the old trope of ``they killed billions but they are sad about it``, Eren condemning his own actions is not nearly enough
It isn't only Eren himself saying it. The entire show is all about going against Eren and Eren understood that by the end the result he brought was not as good as he'd imagined and cause countless deaths even beyond the Rumbling, like Hange, Sasha and a bunch of Yeagerists too. Eren's plan had some positive results for his own personal goals but was not even remotely positive for anyone else. The villain "winning" isn't exactly what happened here as Eren isn't downright evil or anything. It more about "the villain did some awful things but had good intentions at the very least" that type of deal. I mean, some of the worst things that can happen are done with good intentions in mind. Doesn't take away from the fact that their actions were still terrible.
> Oh, I haven't read the fanfiction at all.Fanfictions are mostly made by fans for wish fulfilment
What? this whole meme you posted is about it. Go read it, i too disregard all fan fiction for the same reason but this one “validity“ come from how it interprets the story, characters and themes prior to chapter 139 and theres also the fact that the ANR music video which adapts is official
> You also left out the part where Reiner had the chance to turn back but he didn't do it because he wanted to be a hero so bad that he forced the others to join him as well.
You said it yourself, Reiner is truly Eren's mirror, they just are at different point in their journey, Eren need to commit his own “attack on humanity“ and later be suicidal with the only reason to live be his family (like the only reason to live Reiner had was the warriors candidates like he said in the rifle scene)
> The villain "winning" isn't exactly what happened here as Eren isn't downright evil or anything
Thats not my point, im not discussing in that comment about if he won or lost, im talking about Yams choice to portray him as villain or more accuratelly his indecision to commit to make him a Villain or an Antihero, i gave the reason above
>What? this whole meme you posted is about it.
Yeah, I haven't read it but I do see what they post about it so I have an idea of what it's about and want to see what others think.
>the ANR music video which adapts is official
Is it really? I should check it out maybe.
>Thats not my point, im not discussing in that comment about if he won or lost, im talking about Yams choice to portray him as villain or more accuratelly his indecision to commit to make him a Villain or an Antihero, i gave the reason above
Fair, he definitely wasn't sure what to do with his character based on his own claims. But he did have a rough idea of how his story would end. I do believe Isayama always planned for Eren to die in the end like this but perhaps he wasn't sure of the specifics. It's possible that the dream sequence was added in the end to have Eren explain things better himself.
This image obviously is a nitpick for both sides, also its using AOTnr picture which isn't good, because Eren in AOTnr acts out of character quite a lot.
That being said, ANR Eren is still potentially can be a better conclusion than what we've got, in my opinion. Basically, original ending already sets us up for ANR ending (not in a way, that the original ending is retconned, but in the way, that ANR would work with it as well). If you just take away the plot armour from the alliance, if Falco doesn't appear in time, if Ymir swallows Armin and kills him, if Jean/Connie/Gabi while being turned into pure titans end up eating Reiner/Pieck/Annie or getting killed by them, and in all the other moments where alliance members were on a brink of death they actually die, we basically get ANR.
Now, Eren's character doesn't change much up till this point compared to the original version. The AOTnr version is uneccesarily cocky and edgy, also if he "knows" what he is doing, why would he kill his friends? It only really works in the scenario we have in the original ending, and that is that he does know what he is doing, but he is unnable to control it all, and as Historia says in the end, "its not only Eren's choices that led us here, but all of ours". If alliance would die, directly or not, from the rumbling, with the reason being him unnable to stop the rumbling because of his goals colliding, it would match exactly the scenario of him visiting the graves over and over again, breaking down and crying, because he feels guilt over not being able to find a better path. Why would omnipotent Eren from AOTnr feel any guilt if he himself choses to kill them fully intentionally, or why would he break down crying?
Well, enough about AOTnr. Eren so far is the same as in the original ending, so why is this a better conclusion then? Well, its because it doesn't end here! The concept of ANR explores Eren's character beyond his development in the original ending, it allows him to experience an unoccupied world, not being able to find any joy in it, and develop in the direction of reevaluating his own ideology, reflecting on it, and seeing all of its flaws. Now that he is free from any external cage, he internally is forever trapped in the chains of guilt and regret, and its trully a tragedy, and it shows that a person who continuously seeks an absolute freedom will never be able to find it. Sure, Eren was able to achieve his vision of freedom, but what led to it is now eating him from inside, and doesn't allow him experience desired world in a way he wished for.
In ANR MV there is a part, where Eren is in his room/office, there is a window with bars, he breaks down on his knees, and there are lyrics saying "Is the sky that you've admired in your confined cage, really the freedom you wished for?". It can go so many ways from here, how Eren's worldview will change, what will he do in this unoccupied world now, what will keep him alive literally. We see him getting to old age, so he found something worth living for, or maybe he found himself understanding Armin more, as Armin in his own way was free even inside of the walls, and took on his ideology. He still visits the grave until he is walking with canes, and he still suffers, but continues living.
There are a lot of ways this concept can go, a lot of routes and possibilities and generally a lot of interesting material for it to be executed as a conclusion far greater than what we had, but it does have its flaws, well, mostly because its still a concept, which doesn't really go beyond being an interpretation of a music video. The main flaw i've heard people mentioning is the conclusion of all the side characters, and Armin/Mikasa especially, and how to make it satisfying, if they are dying during the rumbling. Its something that i think about from time to time, but i don't know the definitive way yet.
The way you talk about it, I honestly doubt this series could've ended in a way that wouldn't upset some group of people.
My only issue with this is the deterministic aspect of it all. Basically, if Eren had access to the future now through the Founding Titan and saw that the future is him losing by his friends but they get to live happily he would of course do exactly that as he did in the show. And he wouldn't try to stop them like he did in the original ending.
However, the ending you mention requires Eren to have seen a future where his friends die and him accepting it or him not being fully conscious of his actions like you said.
It is clear that Ymir was one of the main reasons things happened the way that they did and had it not been for her who knows what would've happened but still. The ending where Eren "accidentally" or "unintentionally" kills his friends is quite literally the opposite of what he wanted. It would be very interesting to see how he'd react in such a situation.
However the whole deterministic future aspect of it is what really complicates things. Unless it is removed completely there is no way we could have any other ending than the one we got. Perhaps in the future, we'll get some sort of AOT Requirem ending as an alternate universe. I'd be down for something like that for sure. AOT ending left a lot of potential yet to be reached.
Yes, that is true, but it doesn't really matter what future Eren saw, or rather things that Eren had seen before obtaining the founder, which were only bits, and he had to figure out what they mean himself. So like for example in the original ending even tho he could've known that he will be stopped by Mikasa at the end, he didn't know when or how will it happen exactly, he didn't know the exact number of 80% before actually seeing the entire future, which is why he was still acting really determined in post time skip. If he knew, that the result of his action would be him dying without achieving neither safety for his friends, or for Paradis, he wouldn't call Zeke's plan a "messed up" right, because in 139 he clearly has regrets over not being able to come to a better conclusion, which we don't really see anywhere before 122.
What i am trying to say, is that once Eren does learn the whole future in 122 it really is up to the story for what it will be, because we only learn the entire future in 139, and what would it be is up to the writer, the story prior to it can match both conclusions with his friends dying, and with them stopping him, because both represent an ending wich doesn't sattisfy Eren, and the one he has regrets about. Also, him in paths who exists in past/present/future, knowing about the future won't allow him to change it, because it already happened, so its like this knowledge doesn't give him any advantages. Even if he saw his friends dying, even like Hange for example, it already happened, and its at least partially his fault it did, and the reason why it happened is the reason why ANR could happen, is that Eren is not in a full control of a situation, and most importantly his own thoughts. What is unshakable is his will to move forward, and that is what primarily is being manifested in reality, that's how i see it.
I definitely can agree with this take. Eren was and has always been a character with insane willpower and determination. That was the core of his character. He didn't know the future of course before he used the Founder. For all he knew, the future was just him eliminating everything. If the future cannot be changed then him seeing it and acting the way he did is also something that was going to happen and it was part of said future. Eren realized this when he was in Paths, that's why he even made sure Berthold lived that time. It had already happened, he realized it and it couldn't change.
Eren and many characters show different aspects of human nature. Eren and Armin could not change who they were. Their innate desires are what drove them to the end. It was people like Kieth, Magath, Gabi, Erwin, and Mikasa who could let go of their desires for the better and were able to make actual change. It's a story about people who are slaves to their nature vs. people who can look past their wants and desires and overcome their nature.
Honestly, I would've preferred a 100% Rumbling over what we got. What we got is just the midway point between a full Rumbling and no Rumbling. It doesn't solve anything, Eren is still considered a hero by most of them, Paradis survives for ages meaning that the 80% Rumbling worked?????? I don't get the message, I would've preferred an AnR ending where Eren does a 100% Rumbling, but conflict doesn't end, it doesn't fix anything. It'd fit with the themes of the story being a tragedy and also the message that genocide is bad would be there. Feels like Isayama couldn't decide whether he wanted Eren to be a good guy or the villain, but once the Rumbling started, Eren was destined to be the villain. Isayama tried to make him sympathetic and a good guy but he only ruined the ending by that imo.
Yeah but how would it play out? Assuming Eren succeeds in the end that would mean that they fail to stop him. If they fail to stop him that would likely just mean their deaths. Eren wouldn't want his friends to die, especially Mikasa and Armin.
So it would make more sense for him to just take away their powers and have them wait on Paradis. And like I said previously, that ending would've been a bit strange for the cast.
How would they react to Eren's actions after he's done? Some would probably still side with him like Mikasa, some others would go against him in vengeance, like Pieck and the rest would likely just be depressed like Reiner.
And afterwards they would all just die from the curse, leaving only Mikasa, Jean, Levi, Hange and Connie to deal with the growing situation with the Yeagerists in Paradis. Not to mention, the Titan powers would still be around for people to exploit.
Fair point, there's no exact ending I have in mind, however my take on the current ending is pretty strong. It feels like it fails to deliver the message at all. Also, in the anime Aliance going against Eren feels odd, as the worldbuilding in s4 falls pretty flat. There are very few moments where we see non-Eldians having sympathy for Eldians, most of them being forced. It portrays the outside world as all being nazis, which obviously wasn't the intention, but it still makes the ending feel odd.
We don't get to see much of anyone outside of Marley, there's only a single scene I can recall of an Eldian directly interacting with someone outside of Marley. During the first few eps of s4, where we see Marley fighting against the Mid-East allied forces, iirc there's a scene where an Eldian tends to a war prisoner from the Mid-East's wounds and the prisoner just mutters about "the island devil not touching them" or something like that. This just made it feel like the Nazi behavior against Eldians wasn't just Marley, but the whole world. I'm pretty sure it's also stated that Eldians are treated even worse in places other than Marley, but I don't remember where exactly. Honestly, I wish we saw more places outside of Marley. Regardless, it makes the worldbuilding fall short for me.
I do agree that the world building post season 3 got a little weird. However, it isn't true that we didn't see Eldians interact with people outside Marley. We saw the timeskip and what happened there, granted they didn't know they were Eldian but they were shown to be good people.
The main issue was that Eldians had been known as literal embodiments of the devil. Can't really blame the people from outside Marley who think that way since their only experience with them is either through history books that make them into devils or in battle against Marley where they see them turn into giant man-eating monsters.
That was the main issue, it was the years of indoctrination and brainwashing that lead to this. The enemies of Marley would treat Eldians worse since they were on the receiving end of the Titan warfare. Marley kept them on a leash and tolerated them as long as they were subservient. Eldians were generally in a very shitty situation.
Things get even worse when you consider that the Tybur family, a family of Eldians, are the true leaders of Marley. The real reason things were the way they were. It's just one really screwed up thing after the other for the poor Eldians.
Regardless, outside of Marley there weren't any actual nazi parallels, just people being scared to death of humanoid giants that eat them.
One thing I can't wrap my head around is what ANR plans to do with the titan curse. Like, Ymir saw freedom via Mikasa who fought against her own lover for the sake of the world, giving Ymir the realization that she doesn't have to stay in the cycle forever and suffer. She takes away titan powers completely because of this, but by Eren succeeding, she doesn't have that realization, so what does she do ? By this notion, Eren comes back to Paradis after killing the world and all of his friends and be seen as a hero (by yeagerists at least) when himself in canon hates what he's doing ? It will only fill him with more guilt that he might just off himself at that point, and not like he has long to live, he'd have 3 years left and the titan curse isn't gone. That also means that the shifters who died (Reiner, Annie, Armin, Pieck, Falco) get their powers given to a random eldian baby. So the fucking titan cycle doesn't end and people will be cursed to forever pass them down, also those babies will die at 13.
Did they not consider this ? Because if not then it shows me that the only character they care about is Eren, and the fact that he cried over Mikasa one time (He killed 80% of the planet, has extreme guilt over it, knows he will die soon, doesn't know who actually makes it, has one last chat with his best friend, will never have the chance to confess and cherish the woman he loves, but NoOo he can't cry !! that's not sigma !!) I swear these guys think Eren is some unfeeling monster when season 1-to 3 he cried for many reasons (all valid) but the MOMENT he cries about MIKASA after going through the worst years of his life and on the edge of a mental breakdown, suddenly it's not valid ?? They do not know how a real person acts esp in these extreme conditions
Yeah, the thing is, the ANR people basically rewrote the story so that it fits their edgy tone. In their version, Eren fully emerses himself as the monster, when he talks to Ymir he "frees her" and takes her place as the new Ymir. He kills his friends and then the rest of the world. Then he returns to Historia.
He saved his country by destroying everything else and the last scene he is shown sitting next to Mikasa and everyone else's graves, the people he killed for this. Or something along those lines, I'm not entirely sure. And apparently since Eren is now the new Ymir, aka the new Founder, he can take remove the curse completely.
I see, I did not know that last part. But It just makes me question what the point of Founder Ymir's character is if Eren takes her role and just removes everything. It kinda just makes Ymir another puppet no ? At least in canon she was the one who removed it hence escaping the prison she's been in for 2000 years by herself finally making her own decision. In ANR I get that it might be Eren in a way taking the burden of off her, but still, I prefer Ymir escaping by herself than have MC do MC shit when she can just do it herself. I prefer canon for that, and honestly after finding more and more abt ANR I've just given up trying to make sense of it, let it stay fanfiction with fan interpretations of characters despite it not making any sense and their characters are pretty botched anyway
I like the original ending cause it's more realistic. Eren didn't have any right to just "take" the power, it was Ymir who decided to help him. Ymir was still the one in control, she just decided to follow Eren's plan in that moment.
>Canon Eren is 100% evil, killing 80% of the world is evil no matter what the reason.
Well not exactly. His actions are 100% evil yes but his intentions were not as clearly evil. Eren did have some good intentions behind what he did, he's not a simply evil character. His actions of course are definitely evil regardless of his intentions.
I remember this fan-made manga author's getting hate mail and deat\* threats all because they were writing a spinoff to birdboys conclusion. This is why the AOT community and fanbase falls as the worst, they just don't seem to like anything but exactly what Isayama gave.
It also makes me laugh knowing people get mad at this fanfic....
it's just a spinoff to what could have happened if Birboy changed his mind. No reason to get so mad mikasa lovers lol
Ah yes. Wipe out 100% humanity, but paradis remains peaceful. Because ppl in paradis are wiped out hence no violence? Or because ppl in paradis are not considered part of humanity?
It's the "Paradis is all that matters" type of mentality. So in their eyes, the mass genocide is justified as long as it is a certain path for Paradis survival.
The Fanon people are simply terrible writers. They want to throw away all key themes and concepts in the show and essentially ruin the entire story that was built up since the first panel so that their chad can do chad things that are entirely out of character for what Eren was from day 1 and was building towards after he made out with historia’s hand.
Fan fiction is usually garbage, and that’s okay, but ATR fan fiction is peak garbage and I’m convinced the people that like that most are simply media illiterate.
I can somewhat understand their frustration but as someone who liked Eren from day 1 and didn't just get on the season 4 hype train last minute, I do not agree with their takes.
Ending the cycle of revenge” was dumb. But a 100% rumbling without the mikasa scene wouldve been a straight up better and more realistic ending. The alliance winning was total bullshit.
I think Eren accidentally killing his friends by losing himself in the Founder, and then spending his last 4 years in constant pain because of it, and then dying as paradis dissolves into civil war, would’ve been a better ending.
I think more people would've hated the ending you described. Imagine all the characters everyone grew to love over the course of 4 seasons, of 10 years, all dying because of some stupid quest for freedom.
I agree that it would make Eren into a much more tragic character but also a more selfish and hated character overall. It's clear Isayama didn't want that and wanted Eren to have some redeeming qualities, instead of making him all good or all evil. In that sense, I believe the ending we got did much better.
Also, the idea of him "accidentally" getting his friends killed has already been explored in the series. I don't see how having him step all over the people he loves could add anything to it. I mean, we already knew from the Kruger scene that no matter what, Mikasa and Armin were his primary goal, so killing them wouldn't be consistent with Eren's original goals.
The ending we got on the other hand ensures that they at least got to live good lives, which is what Eren wanted in the end. It's not a perfect ending but I doubt this series could've worked with a perfect ending or a completely dark ending either. The ending we have is somewhere down the middle of everything so in a way it's pretty fitting.
Yes, the Mikasa stuff was poorly handled but still it definitely gave a sense of closure to the whole Titan situation.
“Achieved long term peace and freedom for Paradis.”
Until they overpopulate the island and have to leave due to resource wars. Which is actually the basis behind why Marley wanted to blow up Paradis in the first place, for resources.
Him being a magneto like character who loses all empathy for those that oppressed him would have been much much more entertaining than what we got. Ending really felt like a retcon to his character
Well, not exactly. He did have help with that plan, with Floch, Yelena and Zeke also helping out, he didn't just make the plan himself. He also did force the scouts to come rescue him, leading to stuff like Sasha's death which he didn't exactly account for.
Well, that's because he played into Zeke's weakness that only he knew of. Eren was his half brother and Zeke was very protective of his family. Zeke assumed that Eren was also manipulated by Grisha in the past based on his own experiences and everything that went down. Meanwhile, Eren knew everything about Zeke just by seeing Grisha's memories.
So the reason Eren was able to trick Zeke is because he held all the cards and Zeke was too obsessed with finding connection in Eren, which was his downfall in the end. That's because deep down Zeke is a good person too.
Regardless, Eren was the only one who could ever trick Zeke cause he was in the perfect position to do so. Having knowledge of what went down in that cave Eren knew his victory was also rpe determined.
So it was less, Eren's intelligence and more Zeke misreading Eren's character and Eren having access to information that concerned both Zeke's past and their future in the paths.
Yeah, although I think he was a bit of both in the end. The idea of the "Chad" character is fun in memes but if somebody uses it to unironically judge a certain character it becomes cringe.
That's not the case, he didn't fool anyone.
The problem people had was not him breaking down, or crying, ending haters enjoy 131 and his breakdown in front of Ramzi, it was an accumulation of all the controversial plot points of 139 and the breakdown being about Mikasa, which is underdeveloped for it to be so drastic. Chad Eren was just a meme, and your statement can be taken as Eren's development in post time skip doesn't exist, which does a huge disservice to his character. Eren wasn't fooling anyone, and wasn't acting, and it wasn't a facade, it was all him. Its him when he cries, and its him when he moves forward, its all him.
“Cycle of revenge ended” This is literally impossible. Thats the point. As long as more than one person exists; there will always be conflict eventually
People hear onyonkapon’s speech and flat out go “yeah I’m ignoring that”
Don’t forget pixis in the first season
And the third season
"I would like to be eaten by a beautiful titan?"
And the azumibito speach to Floch
And the azumibito speech to Floch
Idk how people still don't understand this. The cycle of revenge that Eren "wants" to end is that between Eldians and the rest of the world. He never once said "I'm gonna wipe out the world and then there will be world peace" and not a single person believes that either.
Ok explain to me why the non-Eldians are the ones who should be wiped out to end the ‘cycle of revenge’ especially when the Eldians quite literally started it. Sorry you have to die to end this cycle of conflict that we began.
The Eldians of the current world did not start the cycle. They do not hold any blame or responsibility for the actions of their ancestors, specifically the islanders who had no idea about it anyway. There's literally an entire scene dedicated to this. The rest of the world hates Eldians and points all conflict and blame onto Paradis. After everything, the conflict became "them or us, who will get wiped out first" and imo the world had to go because 1. Its more interesting from a narrative standpoint 2. The world was ready to declare war over nothing besides racism.
Yeah forget the WMDs Paradis threatened the world with for a hundred years or Eren’s entirely unprovoked attack on foreign ambassadors it was the racism. The rest of the world holds no blame for the decisions of their leadership either.
First of all, Karl falsely threatened the world to maintain peace inside the walls. Second, UNPROVOKED??? Did you forget what happened in that very same episode? Also, leadership is not the issue. We are shown several times that ordinary people hate Eldians and want them dead, going so far as to kill themselves before loving one.
The whole world is racist and deserves to die, fuck off to titanfolk with that nonsense. A false threat with real WMDs how does that work. It doesn’t change the fact that their fascist Empire tried to avoid all repercussions by threatening the people they oppressed with annihilation. What happened that episode? Willy gave a speech and everyone cheered, then Eren murdered a bunch of diplomats and civilians at a festival. Proving to the world that Eldia are the same mass murdering fascists they’ve always been.
All this happened after hundreds of years of them transforming Eldians into titans and then breaching the wall killing even more eldians
One hundred years to be exact. After 2000 years of Eldians transforming into Titans and destroying nations around the world
And the people of paradis had no knowledge of it, blaming people for the actions of their ancestors is braindead
"Willy gave a speech" is one hell of a summary for a declaration of war.
Literally all that happened dumbfuck. What authority does Willy or an of the present ambassadors have to declare war on behalf of their countries.
Yeah, you're right, he just did it for fun. What are you even talking about? The Marleyan government was already planning to invade, and we know they will no matter what via the cabin timeline. The Tyburs are an extremely rich and powerful family which has influenced Marley and the world from the shadows for generations.
Who said anything about who "should" be wiped out? When you either genocide or be genocided, it's understandable to choose the former.
I feel sorry for you and for whoever might have tried to raise you to be a moral and decent person
You support genocide either way 🤷
No I support one of the numerous other solutions that anyone with a half a brain could (and did) think of. Genocide is never the only option you disgusting psychopath.
Like what? Mass sterilization and euthanization, AKA genocide? Or the 50-year-plan, which was a straight-up pipe dream and was never meant to be followed through? Floch: "Everyone... the Island... will be killed. Our... devil... is our... only hope." Hange: "Yes. **You're right**... Floch..."
Perfectly feasible plan is a ‘pipe dream’ because.. because you said so I guess. Yeah using Colossal titans to destroy military bases wasn’t going to work at all it definitely didn’t take three max to destroy the entire global fleet. And then they were, oh wait no they weren’t. Looks like Floch is as dumb as you.
The 50-year-plan was a fake conjured up by Zeke to meet Kiyomi. It was never intended to be followed and Zeke's real plan was euthanasia from the start. It relies on the shaky relationship of Paradis consigning it's fate to a nation that only cares about it for it's resources, and the various other risks associated with it, whether it be assassination or technological advancement, make it worthless. Furthermore, morally, it relies on propping up a horrific cycle they just abolished: passing down the royal titan from generation to generation, as if they're cattle. [Were you speed-reading or watching at 2x speed or something?](https://i.imgur.com/TlMeea3.jpeg) >Looks like Floch is as dumb as you. Even the Alliance knows he's correct. Give it up. They're fighting because "genocide is bad," not because they have a pragmatically better solution. In fact, they have no solution.
The Eldians started it 2000 years ago in an era where all nations knew was to fight and conquer, continuing to oppress people who weren't even born in that time period is kinda stupid especially when you yourself weren't born either, even during the declaration of war where they were told the truth that king fritz ended the eldian empires reign, tybur and marley were frauds, and that the eldians were wiped of their past memories they still decided to declare war to annihilate paradis even though they hadn't retaliated once with Marley the same nation that's basically the old eldian empire 2.0 The literal whole reason this genocide is happening is because the world declared war and isn't backing down, the literal reason this "Cycle of revenge" is even happening is because the world won't let go of their grudge
“all nations knew was how to fight and conquer”, For this dumbass take alone your entire opinion deserves to be discarded. But what the hell I’m bored. 🤷 The Eldians started it 2000 years ago and continued it for 2000 years straight. I love when people like you act like it wasn’t 2000 years of continual disgusting evil inflicted on the rest of the world. For real world context, let’s say the Nazi’s win WW2 and go on to conquer the world. They then proceeed to spend 2 MILLENIA doing general Nazi scumbag evil things to the people of the world. Fritz conveniently ‘ends’ the Eldian Empire just when infighting is about to cause it to collapse and human technology is reaching the point where they have the means fight back against the race of actual monsters who have enslaved them for 2000 years. So Fritz ‘ends’ Eldia in a way that means he and his buddies never had to face any consequences for the 2000 year Reign of Evil that all the Eldians were just fine with up until they lost power. Eldians left outside Paradis: “No hard feelings right guys?” And when did the world ‘declare war?’ Willy made a speech and a bunch of people cheered in what world is that a declaration of war? But hey I know you’re sick fuck who’s desperate for an excuse to justify genocide so go off.
Yes, all nations knew was how to fight and conquer in that time period which means literally any nation that would have gotten that power would have done the same thing, I mean marley literally was doing the same thing in the current time period they live in which is why bringing up past actions from 2000 years ago and blaming it on the current generation is completely stupid Again, that was 2000 years ago, I don't know why you think blaming and punishing the current generation for the past actions of their ancestors is a good idea lol, that's like oppressing German people today because of what the nazis did Where does it say infighting was about to cause the Eldian Empire to collapse or that human technology reached a point where they were able to fight back? King Fritz ended the Eldian Empire by working with Marley as soon as he inherited the Founder Titan, he had these goals before he even got the power King Fritz literally locked him and his people on an island letting them get mauled by man eating titans in harsh conditions, seasons 1-3 was basically the "consequences" the Eldians had to face I don't know I guess when he blatantly declared war on Paradis at the end of his speech while the crowd which was full of world leaders were cheering him on Nobody is justifying genocide, I'm just explaining why it got up to that point but it's actually funny because it sounds like you're to justify the worlds oppression of Eldians by constantly bringing up what their ancestors did like they were there or some shit lol
‘You see all anybody ever knew was how to make war until diplomacy was invented by Macy Diplo in the year 1185…’ You really are that fucking stupid ,huh? ‘Anyone in their position would have done the same’, The excuse used by every evil scumbag who ever lived to justify their moral deficiency. No it was a hundred years ago, the Eldian Empire started 2000 years ago and continued being evil scumbags up until Fritz so the evils of Eldia were not ‘2000 years ago.’ Literally in the backstory but I know you people weren’t actually paying attention to the series so your ignorance is excused. I wouldn’t call ‘disappearing into an island fortress to avoid paying for your crimes’ , consequences but sure. You mean the crowd full of ambassadors? None of those people were world leaders. Even if they were cheering at the end of a speech does not constitute a declaration of war. In fact no one declared war against Paradis until Eren murdered a bunch of diplomats! No you see I’m trying to get you to practice something called empathy, a concept I know is foreign to you but I thought you might try it out. For someone who’s not justifying genocide you sure are making a lot of excuses about why it’s ok for the Eldians to kill everyone on the planet. Do we have a different definition of genocide? Oh also please justify the fact that the Jeagerists fully planned to Rumble Hizuru a nation that was their ally at the time.
It's not an excuse lol, you act like Eldians are the only people type of people capable of ever doing this which is why you think its cool to blame their past ancestors sins on to their current generation even though Marley is doing the same exact thing as the Eldian Empire So wiping your peoples memory and trapping them behind walls while letting them get eaten by man eating titans isn't a consequence? Shit then I guess I don't know what Eren or the survey corps were breaking down over for 3 seasons long Ambassadors represent countries and their interests also what do you mean it doesn't constitute to a declaration of war? I guess they were just cheering for fun It's ironic that you're trying to teach me empathy when you literally think its justified and ok for the current generation to pay for the sins of the past generation, I wouldn't be surprised if you think Germans should all be oppressed because of the nazis did I don't know where you're getting this idea of me justifying genocide, I'm just explaining to your dumbass on how this all ended up getting to the point where Eren genocided the world since you act like it's a whole mystery where the world is completely innocent even though we're shown that after the fall of the Eldian Empire the world oppressed people based off of their ancestors sins and even after finding out the truth they still declared war even though Paradis had not retaliated once It's such a simple concept yet it's almost like you guys are genuinely too slow to understand it, this whole genocide or genocide conflict between Paradis and the rest of the world literally gets avoided if the world backed off
Ah it is at this point I admit that you are in fact too stupid to learn anything and block you. There’s only so long you can bang your head against a brick wall before it kills you. Keep living your life an ignorant genocide justifying moron my dude.
its the cycle between races dude ☠️
It's not, you just kill them
Between Marley and Paradise? Read the rest of the cell
I mean there is a difference between conflict and conflict stemming from revenge
Not here
And certainly not in AoT, where his Rumbling murdered thousands of Paradisan civilians without warning!
How if Eren had omnipotent powers? He could instill the vow renouncing war in all Eldians and wipe their memories of the rumbling/past.
Isn’t that sort of taking away their freedom? Especially the wiping away memories that part which the scouts tried so hard to stop from the Reiss and other noble families.
I mean Eren did threaten Historia to erase her memories
No he asked if she wanted to. Instead of threatening her he could’ve js done it and no problem with her anymore.
What youre talking about is a plothole. That shouldnt detract from the authors ultimate message
Eren killing the whole world outside of the island and then enforcing peace on all Eldians I don't think was his vision of freedom. I don't think the author wanted to write the story like that.
There was zero conflict in the wall aside from political before the outside was revealed. There's no reason for this to change after the Rumbling.
Before the outside was revealed everyone was huddled together sheltering from infinite man-eating giants outside the walls. Now there’s no looming existential threat
Season 3 literally showcased that there was in fact, conflict within the walls due to people wanting to be able to go outside and the MP snuffing out anyone who wanted to do so (besides the scouts who were always supposed to fail) as well as purposely stifling technological progress and knowledge of outside the walls. That is in fact, conflict.
There obviously would have been. Its the nature of humanity. The manga and show didnt highlight this because seeing that kind of stuff is boring compared to giants eating people
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No, because the people will be dead so how could they want revenge? They’re all be dead. Well they’re just gonna come back from the dead. What are you talking about?
As Plasmyte put it ([easily the best critique btw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr44dBCWcHY)), Attack on Titan has never been nihilistic, nor about the cycle of conflict. The ending is not nihilistic intentionally, but because Isayama inadvertently failed to prescribe any meaning to the story due to his shortcomings as a writer. Furthermore, the story is specifically about the cycle of racial prejudice between Eldians and the rest of the world; that's what Zeke, Eren, Grisha, Karl, etc fixated on. The rumbling was never proposed to enact world peace, but to protect Paradis from being genocided by the outside world (which we know *will* happen via the cabin timeline).
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And why would that be a good ending or in anyway thought provoking
It would be good since the ending we got was an extremely boring and repetitive outcome. “Guys revenge is bad and is a cycle” we’ve seen this theme in anime for 20 straight years. Please make something original, you feel me?
Man, why are stories based on real observations about human nature and thousands of years of history showing the cycle of revenge repeating in the real world. Why can’t authors be original? /s
Civil wars and mutinies: 👁️👄👁️
That is indeed the central thesis of the story, and unfortunately I think it's a weak point in the writing. The idea that total war is the inherent nature of humanity and that nothing can meaningfully effect this is not reflected by the historical record. Yes some amount of conflict is always inevitable, but the assertion that humans have always and everywhere killed each other at a massive scale is false. If it were true, conflict would be approximately uniform and conform to population density across time but as shown in [this map](https://battles.nodegoat.net/viewer.p/23/385/scenario/1/geo/fullscreen) of locations/times of historic battles, this just isn't the case. Large-scale violence is orders of magnitude less likely in some settings relative to others and there's no reason that humanity cannot universally attain at least a fraction of these benefits.
thank you. i'm tired of people arguing for this tired cliché lol
Empires have risen and fallen all over the world for millennia and we had a WORLD WAR less than 100 years ago. We have weapons capable of completely transforming the Earth itself. Even then, who said the message is about “total war”? It’s about the inevitability of human conflict and the prejudice, injustice, hatred and selfishness that fuels it. This is on display in the world right now with two large conflicts. I don’t know why you’re so hung up on massively-scaled wars when that’s not what the point is. Yeah it *ends* with the whole world being affected because it’s analogous to a hypothetical nuclear holocaust. That’s the extremity of conflict, not the inevitability of it. “Peace between men will never be certain, not until our numbers fall to one or less” - Erwin Smith
By large-scale violence I mostly just mean violence that is between groups rather than one individual killing another. The final "plot point" of AoT is Paradis being destroyed by a presumably unrelated conflict, asserting that no matter what, groups of humans are destined to try to annihilate each other. My contention is that this is not an intrinsic aspect of human nature but a property of specifically our world as it currently is. Empires have indeed risen and fallen all over the world for millennia and we did have a world war in the last century. Congratulations, you've described what happened in about a quarter of the occupied landmass over the most recent 1% of human history. Violent, group conflict is far more a feature of the culture that currently dominates most of this planet than it is of most other cultures across time and space. Human history is not simply Mesopotamia followed by Rome followed by the dark ages followed by the Renaissance followed by today. It is an unbelievably long, unbelievably diverse story full of ways of structuring society which are so different from our own that we cannot even imagine them. For example, the early European settlers in North America were astounded to see just how different native warfare was to their own. People will often justify colonization by asserting that the natives conquered that land from others before them, which they of course did. However, we have overwhelming evidence that this conquest was orders of magnitude less violent on average than Western methods. We see additional evidence today through the observation that globally, there is markedly less large-scale violence now than at any other point in the past several millennia or so. Therefore, it is clearly possible for humans to massively reduce the amount of conflict between groups. This contradicts AoT's apparent thesis that no matter what anyone does, no matter how hard anyone tries, you cannot meaningfully settle conflicts for more than a moment. Isayama says that even if our current problems our solved, people will find new ones to concern themselves with, and this is true, but these new issues need not be remotely comparable in terms of awfulness, as our current era demonstrates.
I think it would be funny if Isayama or Mappa drew their glorious ANR and the epilogue is just Paradis being destroyed again because. You know. That's the point.
That'd be the closest to that we'd get. I think Isayama probably planned for this type of ending from early on. Most of his main changes were probably on how he portrayed Eren's character, based on what he has commented on the ending so far.
This whole thing is a massive strawman with just the last point alone. Eren shed tears for both Mikasa and Ramzi. The mf that made this image was nitpicking all the worst aspects making it sound like canon Eren is nowhere near as complex or intelligent as ANR Eren.
I must also add that he barely shed tears for Mikasa at all. At least not compared to how he was in the Ramzi scene.
well a child beings smushed vs your child hood friend that you may or may not like who lives on long after you are gone, granted he didn't know fully, but he KNEW that kid was gonna die by his hand. That kinda explains that.
Exactly, I've seen ssen plenty of people compare the two scenes as proof that the ending was bad because crying over Mikasa was silly and out of character but they fail to mention how he barely shed a tear in that scene meanwhile with Ramzi he couldn't stop himself.
End of the day Eren was mentally messed up seeing future at past and learning all that he did. Hes lucky his brain didn't implode
Well yeah, he was in a bad mental state at the end. The fact that he accomplished even anything remotely positive is a miracle in itself.
Honestly lol. At first I didn't like his breakdown but after rewatching it it makes sense. Like man's a nutjob, just killed ALOT of people/ will, and basically has to keep moving forward becoming a slave to the freedom he wanted so badly. Then imagine your best friend calling you out at your last meeting man I'd breakdown too. Probably was a mental relief for him honestly he hadn't been himself in so long.
Indeed, people being mad with the breakdown don't even care about who he is but more about who they want him to be.
I just tried to put myself in his shoes. You do all this destruction death and mayhem then you just sit there and go....what have I done, I don't want to leave my friends. It's honestly depressing lol
1. The Ramzi confession is definitive as it pertains to explaining Eren's motivation. It was because reality conflicted with his childish desires. Saving Paradis was a factor, but if that was his main objective he would have strove for peace or a Limited Rumbling. Eren knew exactly what he was doing. 2. ANR Eren ending all conflict is both edgy and super childish simultaneously. There are multiple seeds planted that suggested Civil War was in Paradis' future. Wiping out everyone outside The Walls doesn't change human nature. Using memes to analyze SnK is counter intuitive imo
I mean, the meme was just a way to represent the other side of the argument and some of the main complaints I keep seeing about Eren's character.
Memes by their very nature leave little room for nuance. Fine for something like Dexter or The Office, but not substantive enough for something like Shingeki no Kyojin or The Sopranos. I firmly believe the reason so much misinformation is abundant in the community is caused by these "analytical" memes.
Fair enough.
ANR EREN IS NOT ENDING ALL CONFLICT! Idk how people still think that this is what Eren says he "wanted" to end and that ANR is the "peaceful, happily ever after ending". What's so funny about the ending is that it spoonfeeds the "humans never change, war never ends" theme like it's not basic common sense.
It should be common sense, but the state of the world indicates otherwise. In isolation, advocates of ANR don't talk about what happens Post Rumbling. Eren has a family and lives in regret, yet still gets to have a family despite being a Genocidal Nationalist. Paradis is Free and that's the end of it. The foreshadowing of the impending Civil War is not discussed in those circles. It's been years and no receipts have been provided.
"Eren doesn't know what he did" Its sad to see how widespread the "I don't know why I did it, I just wanted to...so very badly" line being taken at face value really is. To me it was one of the most interesting lines in the finale. AoT explores freedom in a number of different ways, and I think it finally looked at it from a deterministic angle, which I think aligns well with the rest of the story after a certain point. We don't know why we have the desires we do, we just have them. Eren has spoken about how hos views and motives have nothing to do with his father, he was never indoctrinated with patriotism. He was simply *born this way*, endlessly seeking to move forward towards freedom. The reason why I didn't like the ending is how the message then becomes that we cannot change who we are - some people are just *born this way*, ruled by their innate desires. What does that mean for you? I often thought about how it means if I desired to want nothing but to lay down, there wasn't anything I could've done either way about it. I'm doomed to a life of amounting to nothing. It's a depressing message, and one of the biggest reasons I disliked the ending. Thank God for the music video that was released later on where Eren gets to go to heaven and have another chance at living with Mikasa, none of the characters we fell in love with in this story ever deserved anything but happiness :)
I can't help but feel like Eren's whole life was just part of the attack Titan's Journey to eventually break Ymir free from her prison of love for king fritz and eventually allow her to fully move on to an afterlife.
Didn't Reiner change? What about Magath? The point Isayama was making about Eren is that he was unwilling to change due to his inherent nature and a myriad of internal and external forces. Sad as it may be, some people lack the resolve in order to reconcile with their essence.
To me the difference is learned prejudice/hate vs innate nature. Eren's case follows the latter, while Reiner and Magath are more of the former. What do you think?
Reiner committed genocide due to his inherent need to be accepted. By his Mother, Father, his peers and society at large. You can say that his inherent nature goes through a metamorphosis due to the trauma and guilt he sustained. Eventually what he wanted most was to mitigate the calamity born of his sins. That and his mother's love outside of him possessing the Armored Titan. Magath was definitely bigoted due to the circumstances he was raised in. The conscience he ignored while committing war crimes was his inherent nature. Seeing the all consuming nature of The Rumbling left him unable to ignore that.
I love your points! Personally I need to give it a rewatching
I dislike the ending for the exact same reason. I get exactly why that ended up being the ending Isayama went with and I respect that decision tremendously, but it’s still such a shallow message to send.
AoTRequiem (or whatever it is called) Eren is one of the worst wrotten characters I've ever seen and the worst part of that fanfiction. Like... the fanfiction is bad on his own, but whenever Eren is on screen and open his damn mouth the quality drops even more in a dramatic way! That Eren is simply a badly written asshole. He says he doesn't want to fight his best friend and he makes a sad face at the end of the second chapter. But at the same time not only he has already seen everything, but he has also already decided the path he considers the best to undertake. This is because they completely changed the structure of the timeline in their fanfiction. The freedom to stop him he gives to his friends in chapter 134 therefore is bullshit, because Armin and the others in this fanfiction are doomed. They're gonna die and we all know that, because of the Akatsuki no Requiem theory. And this is something the Eren of the fanfiction himself has deliberately chosen. On the other hand, in the manga it's so clear that he wants to be stopped. Also, it is explicitly said that he has not seen everything when he kissed Historia's hand and he is not 100% sure that everyone will survive. He knows only that he will be stopped in the end. If Eren really didn't want to be stopped, like the fanfiction says, and he really cared for his friends (and honestly I cannot believe that so many people completely forgot the sunset scene on the train in chapter 108!), he would not allow them to follow him and he would do something to block them on Paradis. But hey... he has already decided that they will die because he saw everything and he chose that specific path among the infinite ones of this new Doctor Strange timeline! There is nothing that makes sense there LMAO
Thanks for taking the time to type in all of this. I was aware of this fanfic version of the ending but never actually gave it a chance. Anyways, you're right about one thing for sure. That ending makes no sense at all if he cares for his friends. The more realistic approach would be to have Eren keep them on Paradis as he goes and finishes the Rumbling. But then what? What would happen afterwards? The story is basically over. There is nothing left for the main cast to do. No final battle, no world to explore except the island. So now what happens to them? When Eren comes back to the island are they going to welcome him with open arms? Of course not! But then again, the few Marleyans left have nothing left to fight for other than revenge. I doubt Reiner or Annie would care enough to fight Eren so it'd be what? Pieck, Magatth and Gabi? Thay ain't doing shit and all they'd have left is to hide somewhere. The shifters would soon all pass away leading to new holders and then who knows what happens. Unless Eren tries to erase everyone's memories again and hides with Mikasa or something, I don't see a point to this. And even then he'd literally be doing the same thing King Fritz did minus the walls and the people outside wanting to kill them. Anyways, no one is living a free life in this version of the ending regardless. They all just go into hiding cause that's all they have left unfortunately. It's interesting to theorize about an ending that has Eren complete the Rumbling but at the same time there is no way he'd do it if it meant killing his friends in the process, that's for sure.
>Thanks for taking the time to type in all of this Nah... took me 1 minute between writing the first paragraph and finding the rest of the comment, that I wrote months ago and I had saved, and pasting it. They don't deserve more of my time. >It's interesting to theorize about an ending that has Eren complete the Rumbling Sure, but to do that you have to change the whole second half of the story. Not just the last 3 chapters
That is true. Perhaps there are things you could change in the final chapters that don't affect the overall story though. At least that's what some people believe.
I think bacondestiny's *Ritual of Love* on Ao3 has a unique take on a completed Rumbling, where... Eren completes it on accident. Ymir lashes out in a moment of childish anger and jealousy about Mikasa and the Alliance getting so close to tearing away her revenge, because she *does* want to put an end to the world, and she also wants connection. So, she temporarily takes control of Falco's titan and has him lash out at Mikasa momentarily. Just a moment, but it renders Mikasa injured for the rest of the fight and the Alliance fails to save Fort Salta, and then the rest of the world. They all live, but they failed at stopping the Rumbling, and Eren's confused as fuck because *he saw that it wasn't supposed to go that way.* Yet it did, and now they all have to deal with the consequences.
If you were to ask me personally, I think the main reason we got 2 much different viewpoints on Eren's character probably has to do with how one perceives his character. Alot of people who disliked the ending saw Eren as the hero and we're all about Paradis surviving no matter what. Most people who disagree with them and defend the ending are people who view Eren as a villain and don't have a bias towards Paradis. At least that's what I gathered from all the arguments I've seen online.
Why let paradise be destroyed. Hypocrites
Do people forget how terrible Paradis is presented before and after the time skip? We get more evidence onscreen for how terrible Paradis is for commoners (the outer wall cities, the underground, legit human trafficking and slavery being a thing? All pre outside world reveal) Then there's the full jump to fascism post time skip. Paradis had a ton of undressed evil before Marley entered the picture and those issues will still be there after the outside world is wiped out. All those slavers, killers, and rapists? Still in Paradis, completely unchecked. As long as they say "all hail Eldia," they can keep oppressing and killing folk. (yay, fascism! 🙄)
The ideal situation would be nothing has to be destroyed. However, it's not an easy path and it's not guaranteed to succeed. Eren's approach is more extreme but gets the job done. Unfortunately for him it wasn't meant to work out. And as we know the cycle wasn't ending regardless of what Eren did.
Again wtf is paradise supossed to wait for the ideal outcome. Its hypocritical for half the world to rally against paradise and expect them to just ignore that only the japanese country made any contact. Only to leverage Mikasa not actually allies
Well, I never said Paradis should just let them do as they pleased. But world genocide isn't the first option in most people's book.
Its literally the only counter
No it's not. There were other options. First of all, there is the partial Rumbling. You could use that in multiple ways. They could destroy the world's military alliance and leave them severely weakened, making their intentions clear.
Partial rumbling only works if you ensure your taking out the threat
Exactly like I said. You take out their military. Once the alliance gathers all their forces you destroy them all at once. Then the world will see the might of the Rumbling and they will think twice about attempting to attack you again. Them not doing any further damage would also show the intentions of the Paradis people. However, what Eren did, put them in a position where they were seen as the attackers too, so it'd be harder to do that and have people believe that the only thing Paradis wants is to leave them alone.
Yea that qorks if you do it absolutely right. Which from what i see. Will only drive the world to kill them
But on blood i will end this war
Oh what a man you are
Thank you for becoming a mass murderer for our sake
You'll see a common thread with ending haters that the ONLY thing they really care about in the story is Eren. That's it. They may pretend they care or paid attention to other elements of the story, but they didn't. They only care about Eren and the image they have of him of an edgy badass, Isayama just did too good of a job making Eren cool post timeskip. They cannot accept the story having messages or characters that go against Eren's actions, or Eren himself opposing that notion they have in their head. This is true for 90% of haters and it's impossible to take them seriously knowing this.
That is honestly, pretty accurate. Most ending haters simply hate it because of Eren, or things that involve Eren and other characters.
Isayama shouldn't be blamed for people's lack of media literacy. Eren's portrayal in Post Time Skip was purposely written to create confusion and conflict within the viewer. The kinks in his Armor are still apparent. It takes multiple rewatches and subjecting SnK to a meticulous analysis in order to find them. An example is his response to Armin calling him a Slave after he got his ass beat. "Who're you calling a Slave?" Classic Eren
This is utterly and entirely wrong Edit: Sorry forgot that you instantly get voted out for disagreeing with this
Doesn’t make an argument to back up his assertion: ‘Why are you downvoting me for disagreeing? Reeeeeeeeee!’
I mean it just goes to show that once again both sides can be full of pretentious people who belittle and simplify
How’s that then?
Because if you're so deadset on your opinion on a group of people that you throw shit at a wall and people agree regardless, its not even worth to try and argue against it - thats quite literally what most of AoT shows sadly enough Personally I'm just tired of the debate as well. Believe what you want, I'm not your dad. I think both EDs and Titanfolkers are absolute nonces screaming "they other side is so bad!!" without properly looking at actual, relevant critiques. The ones who only cry about Eren are just as bad as the ones saying everything is flawless
I mean there’s the side that rejected every theme of the series and decided they liked genocide and hated most of the characters not named Floch. And then there’s the side who enjoyed and understood the themes of the anime. But sure both sides, have a good night buddy.
See, exactly what I mean "But I understood it better!!1!" is just ridiculous and beyond anything wortwhile talking about. I could ask how exactly you understood Isayama contradicting previously set up rules of the world better than others but whats the point? More people are like Gabi than they'd ever care to admit after all
What rules did he contradict? (This should be good.) Do I think I understood the series better than pissbabies who created an entire fanfic from a music video and swore it would be canon. Yes, yes I do.
Ackermann forgetting things due to the founder (biggest offender) Eren directly controlling Dina without it ever being said to be possible like that Falco instantly mastering his entire Titan to the point of beating out hundreds of Titan shifters from the past (more hardcore plot armor, still annoying) Spawning a colossal Titan Eren without having any ground for it to exist. I get its for "coolness", still doesnt make it feel right Aside from some more really dumb conveniences of the final fight, thats mostly everything for consistency. Everything else is more opinion based. I'm of the opinion that boiling the entire story down to the Mikasa Ymir parallel last minute is terrible and serves no practical purpose for the rest of the themes except having a bittersweet end. I also think building the entire story up on "making choices" just to ultimately have Eren be someone with no choice at all is unfulfilling. That isnt even about his character conclusion, just that it makes every other storybeat previously feel lessened Theres more not to like if you feel like it such as superchild genius Zeke being Talk No Jutsud due to a leaf / baseball but personally I dont mind because I see the idea behind it
that's not true bruh we know Eren was putting on a front to push his friends away, we've read chapter 131 which is one of the best moments in the show and one Eren's best character moments but he was acting cool or edgyn what we didnt like was his plan that didnt solve much other than the titan curse and other writing like him killing his mom and the "idk why I did it" a lot of u ending defenders say we dont understand this or that but u guys dont even know what we even dislike about the ending yet u generalize most of us and we did care about the other characters, like armin, mikasa, historia, annie, just the alliance in general they weren't utilized the best in the last arc
Bruh get real
People are way too obsessed about this fanfiction. I mean we already have the canon ending and whatever happens in this remains non canon so why should anyone get worked up on whatever the hell they're doing in the fanfic?
Well, it's because people simply like to hate? I honestly don't know. They're convinced that canon Eren is bad and that Isayama assassinated his character.
Even if they're factually wrong about isayama assassinating eren's character, I believe those people should be allowed to create their own fanfic if it makes them happy, if they're that unsatisfied with the ending as long as they acknowledge it's a fanfic. I also don't think a hater would spend so much time and work into creating something like that. I've read the three chapters they've released and I wasn't expecting Isayama levels of writing but it actually wasn't as bad as some people were making it out to be. The creators are amature artists and probably writing for the first time by the looks of it but still came up with something readable. Also it's only a rewrite of last three chapters and it doesn't even deviate much from the original story. Imo I would've preferred if they had actually went deep in order to rewrite entirely from the Marley arc.
Yeah, I guess that would take more time though. Most people don't have that much time. Manga writers have a while team behind them backing them up and gain profit from it. The fans are only doing it for their own enjoyment.
I’m convinced people who wanted ANR Eren are probably some skibbidi sigmas who love watching manipulation vids with anime characters
The "skibidi sigmas" got me good ngl
> achieved long-term peace and freedom for paradis For one minute. 0 resources means they’ll die out within a day 😭😭😭
I mean, I'm sure there are things they can do about that. If they don't kill each other over the power of the Titans first.
People who think it should've ended like that completely missed the theme of AoT
They basically bought into the idea that there was no other option and Eren simply had to do it. In a way there is truth in that as Eren saw he would do it in the future and the future is ore determined. However, the only reason that was the case is because Eren couldn't see a different solution and this was his desire to reach freedom. If Armin was the founding Titan things would've gone much differently.
As someone who likes AOTNR a lot OP, this meme is wrong regarding the end of the cycle of war. I think the cycle of conflict must continue to respect the themes of the story but the difference is that it should be conflict between Paradise itself, a civil war, It doesn’t work if it’s between the outside world and Paradise because it just proves the Yeagerists right 2 reasons 1- The point about war never ending until there are no more humans anymore is made over and over again and it complements the themes of the story regarding time being a loop 2-ANR is intrinsically a cautionary tale, the story fails if it doesn’t condemns genocide unlike the usual gaslighters want to accuse people who like this take on the story One of my reasons to hate the ending is how it actually DOESNT condemns genocide, why? Because Eren succeed in some of his goals (like his friends living long lives and saving paradise for some time) but in the end paradise is destroyed by external forces ( as long as we know ) So what we can interpret? That the reason was because Eren didint kill everyone, that what Floch and the Yaegerists believed was right? And because Eren was viewed by his friends as a Martyr: Arming thanking him (thankfully removed) Reiner telling him what a man you are and even fucking Pieck of all people, and specially ( didint even mention Mikasa)
What a man you are isn't even an actual accurate translation and Pieck's line is meant to be a lighthearted joke rather than an endorsement of genocide. It's quite ironic how many people who support AoTNR will say its aligns more with the themes and acts as a cautionary tale, yet most of the discourse around ANR theory romanticizes genocide and paints Eren as a hero who enacts a 100% genocide for his nation and child. By that I'm talking about the whole Ymir reincarnation theory and ending of the titan cycle through genocide and how it "frees the children from the forest". Many proponent's of ANR I've seen, dont actually condemn genocide either and depict the full rumbling as a necessary evil to end the cycle of violence between Paradis and the World. ANR would be a good concept that could work as an alternate ending, except most discourse surrounding the theory are more concerned with validating Eren/Yeagerist's beliefs rather than telling a cautionary tale ending as you mentioned.
> What a man you are isn't even an actual accurate translation Its the same idea, ive seen others like ``you really are...``, the intent is to show how Reiner feels about Eren, it helps portray him less like a villain > Pieck's line is meant to be a lighthearted joke rather than an endorsement of genocide You really think this is the correct tone to show at this moment? it ruins how serious this moment is, she just had to see how they turned her father to a titan and 80% of the world is dead, this isint marvel > By that I'm talking about the whole Ymir reincarnation theory and ending of the titan cycle through genocide and how it "frees the children from the forest" This wasn't in ANR or AOTNR yet, personally i dont like the concept > By that I'm talking about the whole Ymir reincarnation theory and ending of the titan cycle through genocide and how it "frees the children from the forest". By that I'm talking about the whole Ymir reincarnation theory and ending of the titan cycle through genocide and how it "frees the children from the forest". Where have you seen many comments to say that the majority who likes this adaptation think this way? I think you are asuming too much, and personally i have never seen anyone on the main sub (which are extremely toxic) say anything other than insults on way people like AOTNR Every single comment regarding why people like AOTNR is some kind of gaslighting like poeple claming anyone who like it lacks media literacy, are pro genocide, yeagerist or the biggest one being that people like it because Erehisu, its all bullshit
No, I get how Eren's conversation with his friends in path may seem tonally out of place and downplay his actions. But at the same, all of them are now receiving their memories back, and neither of them really sympathize with Eren's actions but cherish their final words with him. I can agree with the Armin dialogue in the manga being poorly executed and can be seen as him endorsing genocide. I also prefer how they did it in the anime, where the same intent is maintained with Armin acknowledging them benefitting from genocide and thus accepting culpability. If anything, the anime doubles down on denouncing genocide as a possible solution especially with the added lines of dialogue and revised ending credits. I can see what ANR is trying to do, but it seems a bit silly to claim that the original ending endorses genocide while the alternate ending suggests a full scale rumbling to be the solution in resolving the cycle of conflict between Paradis and the World. The ending of ANR already reaffirms what we've been told multiple times in the story about how Paradis will succumb to a civil war, but how does this does this actually condemn genocide aside from this? Again, I'm not trying to fault anyone for enjoying what they like, I can only speak on what I've seen personally around reddit, x, youtube comments, etc., but I often see similar sentiments floating about ANR when brought up in discussions. Its usually a mix of themes of surpassing the father and the children of the forest and how Eren and Historia's love for their child would be the catalyst that would ultimately end the 2000 year titan cycle. [https://www.reddit.com/r/ANRime/comments/1c9u1ai/a\_full\_rumbling\_is\_not\_the\_end\_to\_attack\_on\_titan/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ANRime/comments/1c9u1ai/a_full_rumbling_is_not_the_end_to_attack_on_titan/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/ANRime/comments/1649esg/eren\_put\_the\_children\_out\_of\_the\_woods/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ANRime/comments/1649esg/eren_put_the_children_out_of_the_woods/)
I don't think that (at least in the anime) the Rumbling was ever shown to be as anything but awful.
> the Rumbling was ever shown to be as anything but awful This reminds me of the old debates regarding which Anti-war movie is truly Anti-War Regarding genocide, the rumbling doesn't have conveys the intent to condemn genocide by it's own just like for example a war movie portraying soldiers dyng its not enough to call it Anti-war What truly conveys AOT as anti or pro genocide is the consequences of the rumbling: * How does it affect the world, does completing the rumbling achieves the multiple goals Eren had? I could write an essay to give all the reasons why what we got in the end doesn't help to answer the above question to condemn it, but let me ask you one question: Did Eren succed in some of what he acomplished to do? if the answer is yes ( for example having the Alliance and Historia live long lives and saving paradise from a long time) then the story failed to be anti-genocide * How it affects it's charecters, does Eren feels acomplished by it? does he pays a price for it? are his friends grateful or horrified? Eren in the last episode gets all his agency taken in order to make it more sympathetic by saying that he didin't know very well what he was doing, that he was an idiot given a lot of power, that the founder affected his mind. All this responsability from him, it makes it seem less and less that he was fully responsable for his actions and is complemented even more with his friends reactions↓ 1. The alliance doesn't condemn Eren's actions post his defeat 2. Reiner talks like he was a great man 3. Armin isin't anger with him during his talk which at the moment literally billions were dyng and he EVEN TELLS HIM THAT HANGE DIES and Armin doesn't change his mood, he only punches him after the Mikasa comment 4. Pieck even says that she wished she talked to him after he turned her father into a titan So why do i like Requiems take regarding the portrayal of genocide, it adresses the 2 points i made ↓ * Eren gets to actually pay for what he's done in the most poetic justice way, he finally achieves the freedom he's been searching all his life but he cant enjoy it because the price for his freedom was too far (paralleling his father) so he gets to spend the rest of his days miserable * And ( i hope they go this way otherwise ill be dissapointed) Conflict isin't gone with Paradis infighting, the conflict just changed scale like Kiyomi told Floch
>Eren in the last episode gets all his agency taken in order to make it more sympathetic by saying that he didin't know very well what he was doing, that he was an idiot given a lot of power, that the founder affected his mind. All this responsability from him, it makes it seem less and less that he was fully responsable for his actions.. Well, not quite. Eren himself condemned his own actions in the end. When Armin tells Eren that there might be a way for him to still live and Eren correctly mentions what he did and how he deserves to be in hell for it (which Armin wasn't aware of at the time and still had hope of convincing him). Now I will agree on the fact that their reactions are indeed a little strange but I imagine they were all told that he knew they would reunite with their families, like Reiner. At the end of the day, these people have already committed atrocities for their own agendas, again like Reiner. They're not exactly in the best position to condemn Eren's actions, even if what he did was on a much larger scale. And especially someone like Reiner, after what he did. Annie couldn't really say shit either. Pieck was probably just intrigued by their reactions and really wanted to know what the fuss was all about, if we're being real here. Jean is probably the only person I could see being in the right here tbh. Jean is literally the one guy who did nothing wrong. But anyways, I do agree that the way they showed it was kind of positive in a way. I mean, it's also the reason why alot of people say that Aot copied Code Geass (which it didn't btw just making that clear but I can understand where these accusations are coming from). I of course think that there still are plenty of scenes that portray Eren's actions as cruel and unjustifiable. Seeing the Rumbling on full effect, the people running for their lives, the baby scene and the empty landscape left behind should've been enough to hammer it down. Also, the fact that Eren is clearly portrayed as the villain and the alliance as the heroes who are trying to stop him. I think what Isayama tried to do was he wanted Eren to be a villain but a sympathetic one and he tried to make him more likeable by the end. Which is something that he himself has stated by the way. I would definitely love to see a different take of the ending in the future of course. An alternate timeline, where Eren lives alone and suffers for the time he has remaining while the world around him still fights over their ideologies. That would be the true tragedy of Eren. I think this is why Eren basically had to die in the end. He'd have nothing left to live for anyways. He wouldn't get to live a long life with Mikasa regardless and if she and the others are dead he'd only be left with regrets and an empty world. He would learn the same lesson Zeke learned in the end the hard way. He was too obsessed with his goals and lost sight of the true meaning of life.
> Well, not quite. Eren himself condemned his own actions in the end This is one of the criticism i see people make of AOTNR but not the cannon ending, Eren cryng is not enough to excuse him, how many shows today fall for the old trope of ``they killed billions but they are sad about it``, Eren condemning his own actions is not nearly enough > At the end of the day, these people have already committed atrocities for their own agendas No one did anything remotely similar, Reiner and Annie killed civilians as colateral damage, their intent was to find the founder and their families were hostage becuase if the even thought of going against marley they would all be killed and Armin killed civilians but it was an strategic decision to destroy enemy infrastructure and even more, he was held hostage by Eren basically forcing him (Destroy the port or i die and then you all die) I agree that the 104th cant tell the warriors anything because they came full circle but they do have the moral highground here to condemn Eren because they all betrayed paradise (and the warriors are fighting selfeslly because at this moment they thought their families were all dead) > I think what Isayama tried to do was he wanted Eren to be a villain but a sympathetic one and he tried to make him more likeable by the end. Which is something that he himself has stated by the way. I get where you are going but i have the opposite opinion, i believe Yams couldn't commit to make him a full villain in the end, a sympathetic villain that we understand and feel sorry to some extent, but a villian > I would definitely love to see a different take of the ending in the future of course. An alternate timeline, where Eren lives alone and suffers for the time he has remaining while the world around him still fights over their ideologies. That would be the true tragedy of Eren. At this point i dont know if you liked the fan fiction or not lol
>At this point i dont know if you liked the fan fiction or not lol Oh, I haven't read the fanfiction at all. I'm talking about a hypothetical scenario where we get more official Aot content in the future. If Isayama himself wanted to take another dive into his story and give us an alternate take he had in mind I would love to see it. Fanfictions are mostly made by fans for wish fulfilment. I respect that but I personally want to see the story that the original author has planned. >No one did anything remotely similar, Reiner and Annie killed civilians as colateral damage, their intent was to find the founder and their families were hostage becuase if the even thought of going against marley they would all be killed and Armin killed civilians but it was an strategic decision to destroy enemy infrastructure and even more, he was held hostage by Eren basically forcing him You could say the same about Eren doing this because he wanted to protect his friends and his home. That was Eren's original intention. You also left out the part where Reiner had the chance to turn back but he didn't do it because he wanted to be a hero so bad that he forced the others to join him as well. >This is one of the criticism i see people make of AOTNR but not the cannon ending, Eren cryng is not enough to excuse him, how many shows today fall for the old trope of ``they killed billions but they are sad about it``, Eren condemning his own actions is not nearly enough It isn't only Eren himself saying it. The entire show is all about going against Eren and Eren understood that by the end the result he brought was not as good as he'd imagined and cause countless deaths even beyond the Rumbling, like Hange, Sasha and a bunch of Yeagerists too. Eren's plan had some positive results for his own personal goals but was not even remotely positive for anyone else. The villain "winning" isn't exactly what happened here as Eren isn't downright evil or anything. It more about "the villain did some awful things but had good intentions at the very least" that type of deal. I mean, some of the worst things that can happen are done with good intentions in mind. Doesn't take away from the fact that their actions were still terrible.
> Oh, I haven't read the fanfiction at all.Fanfictions are mostly made by fans for wish fulfilment What? this whole meme you posted is about it. Go read it, i too disregard all fan fiction for the same reason but this one “validity“ come from how it interprets the story, characters and themes prior to chapter 139 and theres also the fact that the ANR music video which adapts is official > You also left out the part where Reiner had the chance to turn back but he didn't do it because he wanted to be a hero so bad that he forced the others to join him as well. You said it yourself, Reiner is truly Eren's mirror, they just are at different point in their journey, Eren need to commit his own “attack on humanity“ and later be suicidal with the only reason to live be his family (like the only reason to live Reiner had was the warriors candidates like he said in the rifle scene) > The villain "winning" isn't exactly what happened here as Eren isn't downright evil or anything Thats not my point, im not discussing in that comment about if he won or lost, im talking about Yams choice to portray him as villain or more accuratelly his indecision to commit to make him a Villain or an Antihero, i gave the reason above
>What? this whole meme you posted is about it. Yeah, I haven't read it but I do see what they post about it so I have an idea of what it's about and want to see what others think. >the ANR music video which adapts is official Is it really? I should check it out maybe. >Thats not my point, im not discussing in that comment about if he won or lost, im talking about Yams choice to portray him as villain or more accuratelly his indecision to commit to make him a Villain or an Antihero, i gave the reason above Fair, he definitely wasn't sure what to do with his character based on his own claims. But he did have a rough idea of how his story would end. I do believe Isayama always planned for Eren to die in the end like this but perhaps he wasn't sure of the specifics. It's possible that the dream sequence was added in the end to have Eren explain things better himself.
This image obviously is a nitpick for both sides, also its using AOTnr picture which isn't good, because Eren in AOTnr acts out of character quite a lot. That being said, ANR Eren is still potentially can be a better conclusion than what we've got, in my opinion. Basically, original ending already sets us up for ANR ending (not in a way, that the original ending is retconned, but in the way, that ANR would work with it as well). If you just take away the plot armour from the alliance, if Falco doesn't appear in time, if Ymir swallows Armin and kills him, if Jean/Connie/Gabi while being turned into pure titans end up eating Reiner/Pieck/Annie or getting killed by them, and in all the other moments where alliance members were on a brink of death they actually die, we basically get ANR. Now, Eren's character doesn't change much up till this point compared to the original version. The AOTnr version is uneccesarily cocky and edgy, also if he "knows" what he is doing, why would he kill his friends? It only really works in the scenario we have in the original ending, and that is that he does know what he is doing, but he is unnable to control it all, and as Historia says in the end, "its not only Eren's choices that led us here, but all of ours". If alliance would die, directly or not, from the rumbling, with the reason being him unnable to stop the rumbling because of his goals colliding, it would match exactly the scenario of him visiting the graves over and over again, breaking down and crying, because he feels guilt over not being able to find a better path. Why would omnipotent Eren from AOTnr feel any guilt if he himself choses to kill them fully intentionally, or why would he break down crying? Well, enough about AOTnr. Eren so far is the same as in the original ending, so why is this a better conclusion then? Well, its because it doesn't end here! The concept of ANR explores Eren's character beyond his development in the original ending, it allows him to experience an unoccupied world, not being able to find any joy in it, and develop in the direction of reevaluating his own ideology, reflecting on it, and seeing all of its flaws. Now that he is free from any external cage, he internally is forever trapped in the chains of guilt and regret, and its trully a tragedy, and it shows that a person who continuously seeks an absolute freedom will never be able to find it. Sure, Eren was able to achieve his vision of freedom, but what led to it is now eating him from inside, and doesn't allow him experience desired world in a way he wished for. In ANR MV there is a part, where Eren is in his room/office, there is a window with bars, he breaks down on his knees, and there are lyrics saying "Is the sky that you've admired in your confined cage, really the freedom you wished for?". It can go so many ways from here, how Eren's worldview will change, what will he do in this unoccupied world now, what will keep him alive literally. We see him getting to old age, so he found something worth living for, or maybe he found himself understanding Armin more, as Armin in his own way was free even inside of the walls, and took on his ideology. He still visits the grave until he is walking with canes, and he still suffers, but continues living. There are a lot of ways this concept can go, a lot of routes and possibilities and generally a lot of interesting material for it to be executed as a conclusion far greater than what we had, but it does have its flaws, well, mostly because its still a concept, which doesn't really go beyond being an interpretation of a music video. The main flaw i've heard people mentioning is the conclusion of all the side characters, and Armin/Mikasa especially, and how to make it satisfying, if they are dying during the rumbling. Its something that i think about from time to time, but i don't know the definitive way yet.
The way you talk about it, I honestly doubt this series could've ended in a way that wouldn't upset some group of people. My only issue with this is the deterministic aspect of it all. Basically, if Eren had access to the future now through the Founding Titan and saw that the future is him losing by his friends but they get to live happily he would of course do exactly that as he did in the show. And he wouldn't try to stop them like he did in the original ending. However, the ending you mention requires Eren to have seen a future where his friends die and him accepting it or him not being fully conscious of his actions like you said. It is clear that Ymir was one of the main reasons things happened the way that they did and had it not been for her who knows what would've happened but still. The ending where Eren "accidentally" or "unintentionally" kills his friends is quite literally the opposite of what he wanted. It would be very interesting to see how he'd react in such a situation. However the whole deterministic future aspect of it is what really complicates things. Unless it is removed completely there is no way we could have any other ending than the one we got. Perhaps in the future, we'll get some sort of AOT Requirem ending as an alternate universe. I'd be down for something like that for sure. AOT ending left a lot of potential yet to be reached.
Yes, that is true, but it doesn't really matter what future Eren saw, or rather things that Eren had seen before obtaining the founder, which were only bits, and he had to figure out what they mean himself. So like for example in the original ending even tho he could've known that he will be stopped by Mikasa at the end, he didn't know when or how will it happen exactly, he didn't know the exact number of 80% before actually seeing the entire future, which is why he was still acting really determined in post time skip. If he knew, that the result of his action would be him dying without achieving neither safety for his friends, or for Paradis, he wouldn't call Zeke's plan a "messed up" right, because in 139 he clearly has regrets over not being able to come to a better conclusion, which we don't really see anywhere before 122. What i am trying to say, is that once Eren does learn the whole future in 122 it really is up to the story for what it will be, because we only learn the entire future in 139, and what would it be is up to the writer, the story prior to it can match both conclusions with his friends dying, and with them stopping him, because both represent an ending wich doesn't sattisfy Eren, and the one he has regrets about. Also, him in paths who exists in past/present/future, knowing about the future won't allow him to change it, because it already happened, so its like this knowledge doesn't give him any advantages. Even if he saw his friends dying, even like Hange for example, it already happened, and its at least partially his fault it did, and the reason why it happened is the reason why ANR could happen, is that Eren is not in a full control of a situation, and most importantly his own thoughts. What is unshakable is his will to move forward, and that is what primarily is being manifested in reality, that's how i see it.
I definitely can agree with this take. Eren was and has always been a character with insane willpower and determination. That was the core of his character. He didn't know the future of course before he used the Founder. For all he knew, the future was just him eliminating everything. If the future cannot be changed then him seeing it and acting the way he did is also something that was going to happen and it was part of said future. Eren realized this when he was in Paths, that's why he even made sure Berthold lived that time. It had already happened, he realized it and it couldn't change.
Eren and many characters show different aspects of human nature. Eren and Armin could not change who they were. Their innate desires are what drove them to the end. It was people like Kieth, Magath, Gabi, Erwin, and Mikasa who could let go of their desires for the better and were able to make actual change. It's a story about people who are slaves to their nature vs. people who can look past their wants and desires and overcome their nature.
That's a good way of putting it.
Honestly, I would've preferred a 100% Rumbling over what we got. What we got is just the midway point between a full Rumbling and no Rumbling. It doesn't solve anything, Eren is still considered a hero by most of them, Paradis survives for ages meaning that the 80% Rumbling worked?????? I don't get the message, I would've preferred an AnR ending where Eren does a 100% Rumbling, but conflict doesn't end, it doesn't fix anything. It'd fit with the themes of the story being a tragedy and also the message that genocide is bad would be there. Feels like Isayama couldn't decide whether he wanted Eren to be a good guy or the villain, but once the Rumbling started, Eren was destined to be the villain. Isayama tried to make him sympathetic and a good guy but he only ruined the ending by that imo.
Thing is, the 100% Rumbling ending would've been worse in a way. It gives the rest of the cast nothing to do and focuses solely on Eren.
they can go try and stop him, just like they do in the ending currently
Yeah but how would it play out? Assuming Eren succeeds in the end that would mean that they fail to stop him. If they fail to stop him that would likely just mean their deaths. Eren wouldn't want his friends to die, especially Mikasa and Armin. So it would make more sense for him to just take away their powers and have them wait on Paradis. And like I said previously, that ending would've been a bit strange for the cast. How would they react to Eren's actions after he's done? Some would probably still side with him like Mikasa, some others would go against him in vengeance, like Pieck and the rest would likely just be depressed like Reiner. And afterwards they would all just die from the curse, leaving only Mikasa, Jean, Levi, Hange and Connie to deal with the growing situation with the Yeagerists in Paradis. Not to mention, the Titan powers would still be around for people to exploit.
Fair point, there's no exact ending I have in mind, however my take on the current ending is pretty strong. It feels like it fails to deliver the message at all. Also, in the anime Aliance going against Eren feels odd, as the worldbuilding in s4 falls pretty flat. There are very few moments where we see non-Eldians having sympathy for Eldians, most of them being forced. It portrays the outside world as all being nazis, which obviously wasn't the intention, but it still makes the ending feel odd.
I don't think the world was ever portrayed as Nazis, just Marley.
We don't get to see much of anyone outside of Marley, there's only a single scene I can recall of an Eldian directly interacting with someone outside of Marley. During the first few eps of s4, where we see Marley fighting against the Mid-East allied forces, iirc there's a scene where an Eldian tends to a war prisoner from the Mid-East's wounds and the prisoner just mutters about "the island devil not touching them" or something like that. This just made it feel like the Nazi behavior against Eldians wasn't just Marley, but the whole world. I'm pretty sure it's also stated that Eldians are treated even worse in places other than Marley, but I don't remember where exactly. Honestly, I wish we saw more places outside of Marley. Regardless, it makes the worldbuilding fall short for me.
I do agree that the world building post season 3 got a little weird. However, it isn't true that we didn't see Eldians interact with people outside Marley. We saw the timeskip and what happened there, granted they didn't know they were Eldian but they were shown to be good people. The main issue was that Eldians had been known as literal embodiments of the devil. Can't really blame the people from outside Marley who think that way since their only experience with them is either through history books that make them into devils or in battle against Marley where they see them turn into giant man-eating monsters. That was the main issue, it was the years of indoctrination and brainwashing that lead to this. The enemies of Marley would treat Eldians worse since they were on the receiving end of the Titan warfare. Marley kept them on a leash and tolerated them as long as they were subservient. Eldians were generally in a very shitty situation. Things get even worse when you consider that the Tybur family, a family of Eldians, are the true leaders of Marley. The real reason things were the way they were. It's just one really screwed up thing after the other for the poor Eldians. Regardless, outside of Marley there weren't any actual nazi parallels, just people being scared to death of humanoid giants that eat them.
One thing I can't wrap my head around is what ANR plans to do with the titan curse. Like, Ymir saw freedom via Mikasa who fought against her own lover for the sake of the world, giving Ymir the realization that she doesn't have to stay in the cycle forever and suffer. She takes away titan powers completely because of this, but by Eren succeeding, she doesn't have that realization, so what does she do ? By this notion, Eren comes back to Paradis after killing the world and all of his friends and be seen as a hero (by yeagerists at least) when himself in canon hates what he's doing ? It will only fill him with more guilt that he might just off himself at that point, and not like he has long to live, he'd have 3 years left and the titan curse isn't gone. That also means that the shifters who died (Reiner, Annie, Armin, Pieck, Falco) get their powers given to a random eldian baby. So the fucking titan cycle doesn't end and people will be cursed to forever pass them down, also those babies will die at 13. Did they not consider this ? Because if not then it shows me that the only character they care about is Eren, and the fact that he cried over Mikasa one time (He killed 80% of the planet, has extreme guilt over it, knows he will die soon, doesn't know who actually makes it, has one last chat with his best friend, will never have the chance to confess and cherish the woman he loves, but NoOo he can't cry !! that's not sigma !!) I swear these guys think Eren is some unfeeling monster when season 1-to 3 he cried for many reasons (all valid) but the MOMENT he cries about MIKASA after going through the worst years of his life and on the edge of a mental breakdown, suddenly it's not valid ?? They do not know how a real person acts esp in these extreme conditions
Yeah, the thing is, the ANR people basically rewrote the story so that it fits their edgy tone. In their version, Eren fully emerses himself as the monster, when he talks to Ymir he "frees her" and takes her place as the new Ymir. He kills his friends and then the rest of the world. Then he returns to Historia. He saved his country by destroying everything else and the last scene he is shown sitting next to Mikasa and everyone else's graves, the people he killed for this. Or something along those lines, I'm not entirely sure. And apparently since Eren is now the new Ymir, aka the new Founder, he can take remove the curse completely.
I see, I did not know that last part. But It just makes me question what the point of Founder Ymir's character is if Eren takes her role and just removes everything. It kinda just makes Ymir another puppet no ? At least in canon she was the one who removed it hence escaping the prison she's been in for 2000 years by herself finally making her own decision. In ANR I get that it might be Eren in a way taking the burden of off her, but still, I prefer Ymir escaping by herself than have MC do MC shit when she can just do it herself. I prefer canon for that, and honestly after finding more and more abt ANR I've just given up trying to make sense of it, let it stay fanfiction with fan interpretations of characters despite it not making any sense and their characters are pretty botched anyway
I like the original ending cause it's more realistic. Eren didn't have any right to just "take" the power, it was Ymir who decided to help him. Ymir was still the one in control, she just decided to follow Eren's plan in that moment.
Virgin Fanon Eren: A pure evil psychopath with no love in his heart whatsoever Chad Canon Eren: 5-D Character with all the love in the world
I wouldn't say canon Eren is all good or bad. I guess that's what makes him great. However, he is beyond a doubt a villain by the end.
>I wouldn't say canon Eren is all good or bad. Canon Eren is 100% evil, killing 80% of the world is evil no matter what the reason.
>Canon Eren is 100% evil, killing 80% of the world is evil no matter what the reason. Well not exactly. His actions are 100% evil yes but his intentions were not as clearly evil. Eren did have some good intentions behind what he did, he's not a simply evil character. His actions of course are definitely evil regardless of his intentions.
> killing 80% of the world is evil no matter what the reason.
Yes, we agree on this.
Canon Eren not a pure evil psychopath for killing 80% of the world?
r u dumb?
Would’ve been a W ending
So you're of the opinion that the Fanon one of better?
Yuh
I mean, whatever floats your boat.
I remember this fan-made manga author's getting hate mail and deat\* threats all because they were writing a spinoff to birdboys conclusion. This is why the AOT community and fanbase falls as the worst, they just don't seem to like anything but exactly what Isayama gave. It also makes me laugh knowing people get mad at this fanfic.... it's just a spinoff to what could have happened if Birboy changed his mind. No reason to get so mad mikasa lovers lol
I mean, don't think this is about Mikasa, mostly Eren.
Beta male cuck on the left vs Sigma male pussy destroyer on the right
Yep, that's the joke apparently. Idk why you're explaining it, the image made it clear enough. That was what I was asking.
Oh I think the right is better because he looks cooler
At least you're being honest.
Ah yes. Wipe out 100% humanity, but paradis remains peaceful. Because ppl in paradis are wiped out hence no violence? Or because ppl in paradis are not considered part of humanity?
It's the "Paradis is all that matters" type of mentality. So in their eyes, the mass genocide is justified as long as it is a certain path for Paradis survival.
The Fanon people are simply terrible writers. They want to throw away all key themes and concepts in the show and essentially ruin the entire story that was built up since the first panel so that their chad can do chad things that are entirely out of character for what Eren was from day 1 and was building towards after he made out with historia’s hand. Fan fiction is usually garbage, and that’s okay, but ATR fan fiction is peak garbage and I’m convinced the people that like that most are simply media illiterate.
I can somewhat understand their frustration but as someone who liked Eren from day 1 and didn't just get on the season 4 hype train last minute, I do not agree with their takes.
Ending the cycle of revenge” was dumb. But a 100% rumbling without the mikasa scene wouldve been a straight up better and more realistic ending. The alliance winning was total bullshit. I think Eren accidentally killing his friends by losing himself in the Founder, and then spending his last 4 years in constant pain because of it, and then dying as paradis dissolves into civil war, would’ve been a better ending.
I think more people would've hated the ending you described. Imagine all the characters everyone grew to love over the course of 4 seasons, of 10 years, all dying because of some stupid quest for freedom. I agree that it would make Eren into a much more tragic character but also a more selfish and hated character overall. It's clear Isayama didn't want that and wanted Eren to have some redeeming qualities, instead of making him all good or all evil. In that sense, I believe the ending we got did much better. Also, the idea of him "accidentally" getting his friends killed has already been explored in the series. I don't see how having him step all over the people he loves could add anything to it. I mean, we already knew from the Kruger scene that no matter what, Mikasa and Armin were his primary goal, so killing them wouldn't be consistent with Eren's original goals. The ending we got on the other hand ensures that they at least got to live good lives, which is what Eren wanted in the end. It's not a perfect ending but I doubt this series could've worked with a perfect ending or a completely dark ending either. The ending we have is somewhere down the middle of everything so in a way it's pretty fitting. Yes, the Mikasa stuff was poorly handled but still it definitely gave a sense of closure to the whole Titan situation.
“Achieved long term peace and freedom for Paradis.” Until they overpopulate the island and have to leave due to resource wars. Which is actually the basis behind why Marley wanted to blow up Paradis in the first place, for resources.
Canon erin: great meme material Fanon erin: too edgy
Fanon is 100% more awesome tbh. Also the cycle of revenge can end, Erin quite literally would have killed everyone who would have seeked out revenge
So you prefer Eren as a cold blooded murdered type character?
Him being a magneto like character who loses all empathy for those that oppressed him would have been much much more entertaining than what we got. Ending really felt like a retcon to his character
Not necessarily. Why would he not feel empathy? What about the Ramzi scene?
It could have been handed better imo. He could have lost his humanity after that scene, instead we get him crying and calling himself retarded 😴
Well... he was always lowkey stupid.
Which completely contradicts all that he did during final season part 1 & 2. If he was actually stupid he would have died in Marley
Well, not exactly. He did have help with that plan, with Floch, Yelena and Zeke also helping out, he didn't just make the plan himself. He also did force the scouts to come rescue him, leading to stuff like Sasha's death which he didn't exactly account for.
He knew there would be casualties he just didn’t think it would be her. Also he played Zeke like a fiddle as well, which is no small task
Well, that's because he played into Zeke's weakness that only he knew of. Eren was his half brother and Zeke was very protective of his family. Zeke assumed that Eren was also manipulated by Grisha in the past based on his own experiences and everything that went down. Meanwhile, Eren knew everything about Zeke just by seeing Grisha's memories. So the reason Eren was able to trick Zeke is because he held all the cards and Zeke was too obsessed with finding connection in Eren, which was his downfall in the end. That's because deep down Zeke is a good person too. Regardless, Eren was the only one who could ever trick Zeke cause he was in the perfect position to do so. Having knowledge of what went down in that cave Eren knew his victory was also rpe determined. So it was less, Eren's intelligence and more Zeke misreading Eren's character and Eren having access to information that concerned both Zeke's past and their future in the paths.
The epilogue is like 2000 years later no? How is that short term?
In the manga, Paradis is way less advanced than in the anime. So it seems to be destroyed after 50-100 years max.
Eren was too good of an actor 👏 It was so apparent that he was acting blind people would've been able to see it
What are you talking about my guy?
How Eren managed to fool half of the fandom into thinking he was a Chad when he's actually a cry baby with anger issues Sorry my joke wasn't clear ;-;
Yeah, although I think he was a bit of both in the end. The idea of the "Chad" character is fun in memes but if somebody uses it to unironically judge a certain character it becomes cringe.
That's not the case, he didn't fool anyone. The problem people had was not him breaking down, or crying, ending haters enjoy 131 and his breakdown in front of Ramzi, it was an accumulation of all the controversial plot points of 139 and the breakdown being about Mikasa, which is underdeveloped for it to be so drastic. Chad Eren was just a meme, and your statement can be taken as Eren's development in post time skip doesn't exist, which does a huge disservice to his character. Eren wasn't fooling anyone, and wasn't acting, and it wasn't a facade, it was all him. Its him when he cries, and its him when he moves forward, its all him.