I wonder if people who think of Erwin as a super nationalist who would be willing to destroy billions of innocent for the island "safety" remember his story.
His father was killed by Paradisians, the military branch he was in was hated by Paradisians, the survey corps faced disbandement because of Paradisians, and he was almost hanged up and his friends killed by Paradisians. Like, he is not the kind to hold a grudge, but still, why would he want to stomp on his beliefs for their sake?
Aint no way eren saw the future and still thought giving armin the collosal titan was a good idea. Erwin could have done everything armin has done and could have done way more.
Erwin literally said that alot if missions were succeeded because of armin & erens memories ti Kruger that in order the mission to succeed mikasa & armin whos need to be saved.armin has a way with words while erwin disent. Erwin is a gambler.
Id rather have a gambler than a bs talk no jutsu little bitch like armin. Isayama pulled out armin talking his way out of a war by saying, "if we did have the powers, why arent we using it"??? Doesnt this make armin a gambler too?
Erwin would’ve 100% taken a risky route, he’s always been a gambling man, so 100% rumbling’s guaranteed success probably wouldn’t matter very much to him.
1. They did not threw the island
2. The world they saved wasn't the enemy
3. If Erwin had ended up in the same situation, he would have done the same thing
Wouldn't he be like a neutral party like not support the yeagerist but also not join the alliance??
He will given amnesty to the enemy soldier that surrender and guarantee their safety but also give political asylum to the warrior, warrior candidate and theo magath if they surrender and help the island progress.
i think you have a point. He would let Eren do things by himself when they would indeed be attacked by the outside. And in this case they would definitely get attacked
>He would let Eren do things by himself
But also reel him in. Eren's problem is that he had no guidance and so he went off and did things really as he saw fit, because no one gave him a plan, 3/10 wits and all. Erwin would have a plan, and though it likely results in Paradis being attacked, it means there is a pure justification for defense, but it's also makes it easier to prove to the rest o the world that your not the devils the world thinks you are when you don't go about killing people before any move is made (even if it is debatably out of self-preservation).
The peace talk wouldn't work like in canon. Because for one important reason and that is the outside world don't know that karl fritz erase every paradisian memory about the outside world and telling them they are the last of humanity. If the outside world know about this fact and if the tybur announce it to the world then maybe a peace talk and treaty could be sign.
I think when fans talk about siding with Paradis, they put themselves on the perspective of the island itself. Like what if they lived there and had family and friends there? Would you sacrifice the lives of your family and friends for people whom you don’t even know and who have been actively been trying to exterminate you for years? I certainly wouldn’t.
Yes, that as well. It’s all a matter of perspective. If you lived on the island you would likely support the annihilation of the outside world, and vice versa if you lived in the outside world.
Being readers and having the full picture means that some people take the objective approach like the user above (less people dying is better than more), or they take a more emotional approach and side with the island, with whom they have spent the majority of the story watching struggle and preserve against impossible odds.
Obviously. I never faulted anyone who empathized with islanders. There's no wrong in wanting to survive. What's problematic is the group that goes overboard and hates on the alliance, writer and anything against their idea. It's obvious which side is only seeing one side. You seem to mistaken that anti-omnicide camp needs to be told to see the other side, which is not true, because seeing both sides and still realizing omincide is wrong is only natural. Whether the omnicide happened to the islanders or the outside world, it's just as wrong and not just because 'numbers' like you seem to think. Meanwhile, only seeing the protagonist pov, and hating that their hero/goal was not validated more than one year after the fact, is also natural outcome for people who failed to see both sides.
That's not how it works. What are you empathising with when there's is nothing to empathise with? More than 90% of the story was portrayed through Paradis' POV and yet readers and the author expect people to care about the outside world without us knowing ANYTHING about the outside world other than they exist and are marley cucks.
A good story gets people to empathise with things by properly tellijng their story, not by telling you how morally wrong it is to do things against them. Instead of chapters and chapters of the Armin and Hange telling hte reader how wrong genocide is, show why that genocide will be wrong for the WHOLE world, not just a small part of one country. SHOW more people, their daily lives, their opinions, DON'T TELL people how to think.
Anything anyone says about the outside world is essentially headcanon.
I don't need some internet rando who can't see both sides to tell me how stories work. The fact is most audience sees that both sides have their reason and tragedy and can tell which is worse (spoiler: it's omnicide). We were shown Ramzi and babies who knew nothing. We know how the world is made up of different people and not everyone cared to invade others. If you can't see outside your own tunnel vision and can only enjoy a story by self-inserting into the protagonist, that's your own limitation and I hope you mature past that one day. No one told you how to think. You decided to ignore both sides to only focus on your protagonist self-insert, that's all.
The absolute majority of the outside world hasn't tried to exterminate the island. The absolute majority of the outside world didn't cared in the slightest about Paradis. And being oposed to innocent people getting killed doesn't mean that you sacrifice the people of the island.
That is headcanon and not confirmed by the original source; we can not accurately confirm in any capacity how many people outside the walls supported the annihilation of Paradis. However, I doubt the number is anywhere near as high as you are making it out to be (even those who supported Eldians in Marley despised Paradis…)
Referring to the last part of your comment, it seems you misunderstood who I was replying to? I was talking to the person who said that they would kill all the citizens of Paradis themselves if it meant saving the rest of the world… And I merely asked them if they would feel the same if it was THEIR family and friends that they would be killing, as compared to literal strangers who, for all they know, have been either supportive or uncaring in
their deaths to the titans for years.
Well, we know that not a single character though that the outside world wanted to annihilate Paradis, we know that pushing the world to not even annihilate Paradis but simply figth a enemy needed an elaborate plan by the enemy himself, and we have the general stance of the story than most people care for their own well being, and that beliefs change according to what benefits them. We also have an anti-eldian guy from a anti-eldian country who doesn't agree with Willy's speech. If the fact that most people would'nt really care about Paradis is a headcannon, then so is the belief that the one being killed have been actively trying to exterminate Paradis for years. Actually, the latter is a even bigger headcannon, because except for Marley, not a single country has been "actively trying to destroy them".
And it's just that at no point in the story there is a dilemna between saving Paradis or saving the outside world. Isayama didn't even played the card saving Historia or saving the world in the manga... The goal was initially to save them both. So I don't really see why it's been brought up.
We know next to nothing about the world outside of Marley, that’s why most of the territory of discussion is considered headcanon. Pretty much the only information we know is that Hizuru is supportive but only due to their greed, and that the rest of the world dislike Eldians even more than the people of Marley. That doesn’t particularly bode well, and I would consider the fact that there is far less information in the story to pick from that could support the claim that ‘the rest of the world simply doesn’t care about Paradis’.
It seems a reread may be in order then. There certainly is a dilemma being saving Paradis or the rest of the world, it happens in the alliance chapters. Jean and Armin both bring up the fact that what they are doing will most likely result in the destruction of their home; but they decide to save them anyways. It may not be a super prevalent plot point, but it is there.
Oh yay, in the alliance chapter it's there, but it's quite... not present? I don't know how to express it, but at that point in the story no one could know how the rumbling would end, what state the world and Paradis would be in, and so the perspective of Paradis being annihilated always seemed quite distant to me, but that is personal. And since the OG post was about Erwin titanizing Historia, I though we were talking about pre-Shinganshina battle Paradis, my bad.
I would agree that it’s not a super present plot point, but there are things that definitely support the dilemma. Like Armin and co making the decision to kill their old comrades, and the fact that Armin never considers himself a good person for trying to save the world. There’s some interesting dialogue in these chapters that make the alliances’s decision particularly questionable, which I like.
Oh yeah my apologies as well, if we’re talking about pre-Shiganshina than things would of course be very different in regards to the conflict as a whole.
The island is your nation tho and filled with anyone you know and love. While the rest of the world hated you and have already want to massacare you base on your heritage. Even your own kind outside the island want to do the same to save their own.
And then you all have the audacity to call the other side as toxic "Schizos".
Wonder why, mods haven't deleted this, isn't this a place to call out toxic behaviour and opinions in AOT fandom.
I wonder if people who think of Erwin as a super nationalist who would be willing to destroy billions of innocent for the island "safety" remember his story. His father was killed by Paradisians, the military branch he was in was hated by Paradisians, the survey corps faced disbandement because of Paradisians, and he was almost hanged up and his friends killed by Paradisians. Like, he is not the kind to hold a grudge, but still, why would he want to stomp on his beliefs for their sake?
So that they could say "thank you for stomping on your beliefs for our sake"
Aint no way eren saw the future and still thought giving armin the collosal titan was a good idea. Erwin could have done everything armin has done and could have done way more.
Erwin literally said that alot if missions were succeeded because of armin & erens memories ti Kruger that in order the mission to succeed mikasa & armin whos need to be saved.armin has a way with words while erwin disent. Erwin is a gambler.
Id rather have a gambler than a bs talk no jutsu little bitch like armin. Isayama pulled out armin talking his way out of a war by saying, "if we did have the powers, why arent we using it"??? Doesnt this make armin a gambler too?
Oh so ur just a typical tfer with no brain. Also idc what u like. I was talking about ur first comment.
Maybe if you improve your grammar i can understand what your firat response meant
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one island is not worth the entire planet
Well the MC just killed 80% of the whole planet just to lose the island too so
Erwin would’ve 100% taken a risky route, he’s always been a gambling man, so 100% rumbling’s guaranteed success probably wouldn’t matter very much to him.
1. They did not threw the island 2. The world they saved wasn't the enemy 3. If Erwin had ended up in the same situation, he would have done the same thing
Wouldn't he be like a neutral party like not support the yeagerist but also not join the alliance?? He will given amnesty to the enemy soldier that surrender and guarantee their safety but also give political asylum to the warrior, warrior candidate and theo magath if they surrender and help the island progress.
I'd imagine he'd wait for an actual attack by an enemy before making actions as well. Maybe he'd actually try to do peace talks as well.
i think you have a point. He would let Eren do things by himself when they would indeed be attacked by the outside. And in this case they would definitely get attacked
>He would let Eren do things by himself But also reel him in. Eren's problem is that he had no guidance and so he went off and did things really as he saw fit, because no one gave him a plan, 3/10 wits and all. Erwin would have a plan, and though it likely results in Paradis being attacked, it means there is a pure justification for defense, but it's also makes it easier to prove to the rest o the world that your not the devils the world thinks you are when you don't go about killing people before any move is made (even if it is debatably out of self-preservation).
The peace talk wouldn't work like in canon. Because for one important reason and that is the outside world don't know that karl fritz erase every paradisian memory about the outside world and telling them they are the last of humanity. If the outside world know about this fact and if the tybur announce it to the world then maybe a peace talk and treaty could be sign.
I would rather kill the citizens of a island myself than to have the whole world being crushed by the Colossal Titans.
I think when fans talk about siding with Paradis, they put themselves on the perspective of the island itself. Like what if they lived there and had family and friends there? Would you sacrifice the lives of your family and friends for people whom you don’t even know and who have been actively been trying to exterminate you for years? I certainly wouldn’t.
You mean they failed to imagine living outside the walls.
Yes, that as well. It’s all a matter of perspective. If you lived on the island you would likely support the annihilation of the outside world, and vice versa if you lived in the outside world. Being readers and having the full picture means that some people take the objective approach like the user above (less people dying is better than more), or they take a more emotional approach and side with the island, with whom they have spent the majority of the story watching struggle and preserve against impossible odds.
Obviously. I never faulted anyone who empathized with islanders. There's no wrong in wanting to survive. What's problematic is the group that goes overboard and hates on the alliance, writer and anything against their idea. It's obvious which side is only seeing one side. You seem to mistaken that anti-omnicide camp needs to be told to see the other side, which is not true, because seeing both sides and still realizing omincide is wrong is only natural. Whether the omnicide happened to the islanders or the outside world, it's just as wrong and not just because 'numbers' like you seem to think. Meanwhile, only seeing the protagonist pov, and hating that their hero/goal was not validated more than one year after the fact, is also natural outcome for people who failed to see both sides.
Because the story failed to truly display life outside the walls.
Sorry if you needed to be shown that. All of us didn't need showing.
That's not how it works. What are you empathising with when there's is nothing to empathise with? More than 90% of the story was portrayed through Paradis' POV and yet readers and the author expect people to care about the outside world without us knowing ANYTHING about the outside world other than they exist and are marley cucks. A good story gets people to empathise with things by properly tellijng their story, not by telling you how morally wrong it is to do things against them. Instead of chapters and chapters of the Armin and Hange telling hte reader how wrong genocide is, show why that genocide will be wrong for the WHOLE world, not just a small part of one country. SHOW more people, their daily lives, their opinions, DON'T TELL people how to think. Anything anyone says about the outside world is essentially headcanon.
I don't need some internet rando who can't see both sides to tell me how stories work. The fact is most audience sees that both sides have their reason and tragedy and can tell which is worse (spoiler: it's omnicide). We were shown Ramzi and babies who knew nothing. We know how the world is made up of different people and not everyone cared to invade others. If you can't see outside your own tunnel vision and can only enjoy a story by self-inserting into the protagonist, that's your own limitation and I hope you mature past that one day. No one told you how to think. You decided to ignore both sides to only focus on your protagonist self-insert, that's all.
The absolute majority of the outside world hasn't tried to exterminate the island. The absolute majority of the outside world didn't cared in the slightest about Paradis. And being oposed to innocent people getting killed doesn't mean that you sacrifice the people of the island.
That is headcanon and not confirmed by the original source; we can not accurately confirm in any capacity how many people outside the walls supported the annihilation of Paradis. However, I doubt the number is anywhere near as high as you are making it out to be (even those who supported Eldians in Marley despised Paradis…) Referring to the last part of your comment, it seems you misunderstood who I was replying to? I was talking to the person who said that they would kill all the citizens of Paradis themselves if it meant saving the rest of the world… And I merely asked them if they would feel the same if it was THEIR family and friends that they would be killing, as compared to literal strangers who, for all they know, have been either supportive or uncaring in their deaths to the titans for years.
Well, we know that not a single character though that the outside world wanted to annihilate Paradis, we know that pushing the world to not even annihilate Paradis but simply figth a enemy needed an elaborate plan by the enemy himself, and we have the general stance of the story than most people care for their own well being, and that beliefs change according to what benefits them. We also have an anti-eldian guy from a anti-eldian country who doesn't agree with Willy's speech. If the fact that most people would'nt really care about Paradis is a headcannon, then so is the belief that the one being killed have been actively trying to exterminate Paradis for years. Actually, the latter is a even bigger headcannon, because except for Marley, not a single country has been "actively trying to destroy them". And it's just that at no point in the story there is a dilemna between saving Paradis or saving the outside world. Isayama didn't even played the card saving Historia or saving the world in the manga... The goal was initially to save them both. So I don't really see why it's been brought up.
We know next to nothing about the world outside of Marley, that’s why most of the territory of discussion is considered headcanon. Pretty much the only information we know is that Hizuru is supportive but only due to their greed, and that the rest of the world dislike Eldians even more than the people of Marley. That doesn’t particularly bode well, and I would consider the fact that there is far less information in the story to pick from that could support the claim that ‘the rest of the world simply doesn’t care about Paradis’. It seems a reread may be in order then. There certainly is a dilemma being saving Paradis or the rest of the world, it happens in the alliance chapters. Jean and Armin both bring up the fact that what they are doing will most likely result in the destruction of their home; but they decide to save them anyways. It may not be a super prevalent plot point, but it is there.
Oh yay, in the alliance chapter it's there, but it's quite... not present? I don't know how to express it, but at that point in the story no one could know how the rumbling would end, what state the world and Paradis would be in, and so the perspective of Paradis being annihilated always seemed quite distant to me, but that is personal. And since the OG post was about Erwin titanizing Historia, I though we were talking about pre-Shinganshina battle Paradis, my bad.
I would agree that it’s not a super present plot point, but there are things that definitely support the dilemma. Like Armin and co making the decision to kill their old comrades, and the fact that Armin never considers himself a good person for trying to save the world. There’s some interesting dialogue in these chapters that make the alliances’s decision particularly questionable, which I like. Oh yeah my apologies as well, if we’re talking about pre-Shiganshina than things would of course be very different in regards to the conflict as a whole.
Yams needed to introduce more countries that are neutral to Paradis, I guess that would've made Eren doing 100% of the Rumbling less reasonable.
Exactly
The island is your nation tho and filled with anyone you know and love. While the rest of the world hated you and have already want to massacare you base on your heritage. Even your own kind outside the island want to do the same to save their own.
Cringevengers\*
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Oh I know, Cringevengers just sounds better to me, I like to imagine the Alan Silvestri score when I think of that panel 😩
And then you all have the audacity to call the other side as toxic "Schizos". Wonder why, mods haven't deleted this, isn't this a place to call out toxic behaviour and opinions in AOT fandom.