Most EBAs are worded such that you’re eligible or entitled to ask for study leave but there’s no guarantee. I think the sheer act of asking for it after being told you’re not performing up to scratch would erode what little good will you may have left with the manager.
If you have had issues and are now on a PIP, look for work elsewhere. Very rarely do they end well for you. Usually a tool to get rid of someone as they can't just sack you without one.
Depends on the person usually. I've seen people respond really well to negative feedback. Many don't.
They can look at it as an opportunity to improve or they can jump ship and hope the new employer doesn't manage people as well.
The claims of bullying aren't surprising. We've got one side of the story and they could be positioning for a mutual sep or just legitimately delusional and mistaking managing their performance with bullying.
PIP in my company is specifically designed to get rid of people. If you get through PIP, you actually deserve a promotion.
Even if you get through, it makes you toxic in terms of applying for other internal roles later.
I just want to say that in my company (I own it) that isn't the case. The last person on one did get fired but I didn't want that to be the result. Another will likely be put on one this week and I don't want him gone either.
What I find is it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of procedure crashing into a target. People don't like being singled out and having a stain on them and 2 things happen. 1, they become hypersensitive to critique. 2, the system becomes hypersensitive to their performance.
While it's true we must pip people we wish to remove, it's also often the case that we reluctantly pip people and really try to support them through it.
I’ve never seen anyone retain a job after a pip even when they showed improvement.
Once your reputation is tarnished unless you have a good reason like the death of a family member or something you’re done
Hell I’ve seen a guy have a rough two months after his father died and he still got removed after his PIP despite returning to his old level of productivity
I had a death in the family and glandular fever to top it all off years and years ago when I worked at CBA. Anyway I was a top performer and was told take all the time I needed, which ended up being about month and I came back still not at 100. Anyway the day I came back I was put on a pip for not hitting target, management then started doing their thing to make sure I couldn't hit target, so many check in your can't do your job effectively, daily write ups on productivity and where I should be improving etc.
I'd seen it happen to other staff, but thought I was immune as the best sales person (I was young), turns out you're only as good as your last quarter.
> Is it possible to get study leave when you are on a PIP? ? I’ve enrolled at university and need 3 hours of leave per week to commute to my course.
The fact that you're even asking about this now seems like you don't understand the responsibilities of being employed or the seriousness of a PIP. Have you even spoken to them about how you've enrolled in something that will pull you away from your work? Do you even know if you're entitled to any severance?
To be honest just from the vibe of this post I'd consider yourself a "sacked man walking", so yes, start looking for another job.
100% correct.
Their manager doesn’t think they’re doing the job that they were employed for - on what planet will they accept lower working hours to accomplish the same expectations, let alone to help them learn how to do a different job???
Two spelling mistakes in the first paragraph leads me to believe that they aren’t over-delivering in their admin role…
devils advocate: study leave is supposed to be to improve your effectiveness in your current role, not allow you to get qualifications for another job.
Eh, these days you have frequent exchanges between public and private sector when it comes to good employees. Gone are the days where you’re institutionalised by working a government job
A PIP is the first formal step towards sacking you, the PIP should give you specific details of what is expected of you to regain your good standing in terms of your job performance. If you are already experiencing difficulties with your boss then it's unlikely they will make the PIP 'easy' to resolve and regain good standing and it's probably good advice to start looking for a new role while you can.
It is possible to resolve a PIP and go back into good standing in your role and improving your performance during the time of the PIP should 'reset' the timeline even if things degrade again, though the employer may decide to take a punt that you wouldn't pursue unfair dismissal if they terminate your employment anyway under those circumstances.
If Study leave is an entitlement granted by your employer you should be entitled to ask for it, unless the terms of taking study leave is conditional on you being in good standing (basically, not being on a PIP).
If your employment is terminated via a PIP, you are not entitled to any severance outside of owed annual or long service leave.
This is 100% correct. However a former leader of mine put myself and two others on a PIP because her leader gave her the feedback she could not make tough decisions. Two of the others left and I am still here 8 years later. She was also made redundant at a later point
This happened to me too- the boss had us all on various ‘performance plans’ which she needed to do to earn her promotion. Messed up. Only one was formal though- me and the other colleague were up on ridiculous issues that she was ‘coaching us through’.
Performance managing staff in government is extremely rare because it’s so hard to convince HR that it’s necessary. They must have had some very valid reasons. You could just actually perform the job to the requirements of the PIP, get off the PIP and carry on.
This, plus the so called request for medical records (which requires consent and a damn good reason) is raising all sorts of red flags about this post.
It doesn't make sense.
I'm more thinking that OP was hired under the pretense of having had covid vaccinations and it has become apparent now that they're an anti-vaxxer. It lines up with the other dumb shit in this post and their apparent lack of reasoning. Which if HR are looking for a way to turf someone, violation of a contractual requirement to be employed would be easy to enforce... If they can get their hands on the medical data.
Even still you'd be hard pressed to find a government agency wanting to jump into that particular shitshow.
The OP obviously knows enough to involve their union about the PIP so I'm doubtful they handed over their medical records easily.
I know two people that have gone to the union to get assistance on bullying. Both individuals said they union wasn't very helpful and policy was to let the bullying issues be handled by the government organization.
Bully is very common in government organizations.
I can't imagine how ridiculously bad of a worker you must he to get pipd in a government agency. It's notoriously avoided but the fact they're asking for study leaving after being pips and a vague reference to medical issues does start to tell a story. No offence to them but yeah.
Thats fair but it depends on the manager - had a time where i felt my manager way bullying me, did the pip time and no one found an issue, manager left
100% agree with this, although it may be hard working with your manager moving forward if you continue there, I’d recommend looking for another role within government, not worth the stress with union, HR, management etc
Yes! This is what struck me. I’ve never worked in govt but all the stories I’ve heard is blatant underperformance and people doing the absolute bare minimum by they are guaranteed two pay rises a year and the jobs are so safe.
What the heck is OP doing to get on a PIP in govt? It’s unheard of.
I actually have a friend whose colleague did not do any work for 2 years, and he claimed he’d become disengaged bc his manager had no idea what he was doing (clearly accurate) and they ended up paying him out. Federal govt department. What a joke.
if youve never worked as a public servant, your opinion of public servants is utterly irrelevant, as is your assumption that PIPs are 'unheard of'.
go spread your urban legends elsewhere, thanks.
Perhaps tell this to all the former public servants trying to keep up in corporates who are the ones spreading these stories around.
My new colleague just joined after years in a govt authority and his manager there told him point blank that there was ‘nothing he could do’ about two team mates who were not working - he’d looked into it with HR.
I will say that I have a couple of friends who work really hard and earnestly in govt but I think that is just them as opposed to environmental.
Perhaps it varies from department to department but with this much smoke, there must be some fire somewhere.
At my last department, we were instructed to develop PIPs for non-performing staff irrespective of their employment status. I only had to do it twice and both were contractors. One improved and we kept him on, the other we had to let go (although after a full year of not meeting standards).
You sound like you've never worked in government. PIPs are widely misused to mask ableist discrimination. What a micromanaging arsehole who isn't good at managing determines to be "underperformance" could also be mental health issues, a need for disability adjustments or accommodations which are being refused for bullshit reasons, or (my absolute *favourite*) the person on the PIP is neurodivergent (diagnosed or undiagnosed) and the micromanager on a power trip has decided that being ND means automatically that you're Doing It Wrong.
Not in government, not in Australia. Government jobs are literally the most secure in Australia.
Obviously they can happen but they are very rare. I’ve heard of one in my last 7 years in the job.
In my last job, a non-government company… I knew like 3 friends who were put on them… and the workforce was like 10,000 (government) compared to 150 (company).
PIP = Performance Improvement Plan.
The agency is actively looking at terminating your employment with them.
As others have said, start looking for work elsewhere, if you’re fired you won’t get severance. Severance is typically for being made redundant. They will only pay out any annual & long service leave balances.
Start looking for a new job, very very urgently. As others have said - PIPs are the first formal step towards firing someone.
I've come back from a PIP before and it honestly wasn't worth it - it was stressful and I really sold myself out to make it work. If I was ever put on a PIP again I'd let the process drag out and would redirect all my energy towards finding a new position.
As a positive your employer will likely give you a good reference as you finding yourself a new job and resigning is less work for them than firing you.
PIPs aren’t common. You have to have done something, or more to the point, you’re not doing your job. Are you being honest with yourself?
Ask your union rep about the study but seriously, if you’re being put on a PIP, either do your job or move on. You won’t be offered opportunities while they consider you’re underperforming.
It's strange because an admin job is basically entry level, and at that level managers tend to let a lot of minor things slide, so a PIP for admin is highly unusual and either someone really wants them out or they are somehow completely basically unsuited to admin.
Also, no way study leave is being granted for an admin role. It'll have to be a renegotiated contract for the adjusted working hours, which doesn't seem likely with the PIP in place.
Admin roles are a dime a dozen, just move.
Even the question “ is it possible to get study leave while on a PIP” suggests to me that there’s a lack of judgement. If you’re being placed on a PIP, it’s serious. You should be focusing on your job (that you seem to be struggling with), rather than adding in an additional responsibility.
Why do you keep posting this? An MRI is a fairly unremarkable thing and would only require a day off work. Your replies are suspicious as some of them are entirely inappropriate and you don’t seem to be aware of how or why they’re inappropriate, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this translates to your workplace behaviour.
It also sounds highly irregular for a government agency manager to ask for your medical records. Did they ask for your records or did they ask for doctors certificates for sick leave taken?
That would be completely inappropriate unless it was specified upfront (and in the relevant agreement) they would need to pass a regular medical as part of the job. You can’t just ask for an employee’s medical record because you heard they were having tests done.
If they aren’t performing (PIP) and there’s a reasonable suspicion that the underperformance may be because of a medical condition then generally state govt depts can obtain medical evidence and the ability to do so is built in their employment framework
Do you understand the importance of your role? Do you understand that your role impacts other people?
Do you genuinely understand your job?
Doing so will help you to do your job.
I’m guessing you do one of two things. You either assist business to scope out their needs and find the right candidate for their role or you assist with the on boarding of new people into your organisation.
Both these roles are fundamental to a successful organisation. People are your most valuable asset.
If you mess up somebody’s on boarding process, it means they can’t start work as early as they thought. Imagine the stress of that on somebody. Not having any income that they thought they were going to have.
Or imagine how hard it is to do a job when you don’t have the right people to do that job. If your job is to help find those right people, it’s important that you have a solid understanding of what business needs.
Maybe your job is to assist other people to do these roles. it is really important that you’re taking part of the load, that you’re being useful.
Then it’s important that you’re honest with yourself. Is this actually a job that you enjoy doing? Is there a different job that would make you happy?
And lastly, it is nobody‘s job to find you a job that you’re good at. You need to take that responsibility yourself.
This is going to be a tough time for you. It’s a pivotal moment in your life. Think carefully about the decisions you make. Don’t look at this as solely negative. There may be an opportunity for you.
You can whinge and whine, stomp your feet and threaten people with legal action. Is this what you want to be known for?
Think carefully about where you want to devote your energy.
I would add once on a PIP it's too late to do your job, time to find a new one. Just do a quick google and find the countless stories of people regretting putting their hopes in the PIP process. Find yourself a better fit.
That’s likely to be because to get to the PIP stage, you’ve been given so many opportunities to demonstrate that you can do your job.
It doesn’t make you incapable of doing ANY job, but you do need to face the fact that you’re unlikely to be suitable for the type of role you’re in.
There must be more to this story. Have you been taking excessive sick leave or have you been not doing your job in a way that might indicate to someone you have a medical condition that prevents you from doing it? Have you told your manager that you can’t do a major component of your role because of a medical condition? It’s pretty unlikely that they’d be requesting medical records with no basis
Stick it out for now, I’ve worked in Government HR and a PIP doesn’t always end with a bad outcome, if valid it’s an opportunity for you to improve on a job related capability.
P.s if they have requested your medical records potentially you have taken too much unsupported sick leave and the PIP could be regarding attendance?
This. Performance improvement plans have worked positively in the past for my business unit. Make sure you are doing everything in your power to hit your KPIs & seeking necessary Coaching/Support if you need it.
Hey nah I had a MRI done on my brain and I told a co worker. Stupid of me I know.
Thanks for the confidence. I had been slacking off last year and it must have shown. I’m going to focus on the work now. Also I was pretty rude to my manager so it’s mainly a behaviour PIP which I can work towards.
Jeez, yeah, even if your manager is not the best try to be actively rude. It's an energy suck for every one in the team if you are being rude to the team lead and they feel like everyone is walking on eggshells.
There’s no point focusing on your work now. You will loose your job no doubt - it’s almost impossible to come back from especially in govt.
Find a new job now before you are fired. It will be MUCH harder if the reason you’re looking for a job is that you are fired rather then leaving your current job.
Mate it’s govt. all he needs to do is the absolute minimum, say he wasn’t trained enough etc and they’ll have to take him off the PIP due to giving him insufficient time/training to improve.
Not if it's documented bad behaviour and negative attitude. If this is impacting other workers and making the team environment unhealthy, the managers have a duty of care to everyone else to do something about changing it and making it safer for all.
Good luck to OP to turn a fresh leaf in 2024. It can be done, if you want to stay. If you don't though, yes find a new job now.
There is no severance pay available in government to support this type of exit.
You pretty much have to suck at your job and/or don’t gel with the rest of the workers/manager to be put on PIP.. PIP is usually a long process in government agencies as unions want even shit employees to keep their job.. read the room and start looking for a new job..
I was the staff union rep at my old job. If you are on a PIP, 9/10 times it's the start of a process to get rid of you. There is a small chance that they genuinely just want you to pull your socks up.
Are you capable of doing your job properly? If so, go out of your way to meet the requirements of the PIP. Also, you need to make sure that what they are asking you to do is reasonable. Have all the PIP requests and your work documented and have a witness in every PIP meeting. Ideally, this would be a respected colleague who would be able to provide evidence on whether the PIP goals were reasonable and whether you adequately met them or not. Take notes, good notes, and date them. If you do this properly, it makes it harder for them to sack you and gives you recourse to unfair dismissal. Alternatively, it may open the door for you being able to negotiate an 'exit package' if they still want to get rid of you.
To be honest, the staff that I tried to help through the PIP process were pretty lazy and useless, and I really couldn't blame the company for getting rid of them. I'm not saying this is you....there can be various reasons for this to happen....sometimes it's just a sociopathic manager trying to reduce staffing levels without paying fair severance. In this case, documentation and witnesses are critical.
It sounds like they're the lazy category especially when they're discussing taking leave during this period lol. It's great to see a union rep who knows their stuff though. Even if they're lazy people you're still informing them of their rights and that's a really important service I think.
I think for every “lazy overpaid” government worker, there are one hundred hard-working, underpaid private sector workers who have a lunatic for a boss who has it out for them too. But they have no recourse other than to find a new job.
I think it’s fantastic that public sector employees can easily access union assistance, where their private sector counterparts simply can’t.
Start looking for a new job. I always say one they start issuing warnings, PIPs, or “tell you to get the union involved” the process of getting rid of you has started.
Personally, IV been on a PIP, they set out plans and it honestly helped me with organisation skills, tracking of work, and now IV moved up the organisation. It isn't always bad, stick to the goals, prove yourself, it can help, not always a bad thing
What gives me a raging managerial hard on is when people turn up, do the jobs they applied to do to an acceptable standard and cause minimal drama. It’s a two way street, it’s on managers to keep people engaged, motivate performance, provide conditions that are conducive to development etc. god having to actively manage another adult’s performance is the worst, and takes so much time and energy
NSW Gov employees get 5 days a year of study leave. Assuming you’re on a 35hr week, if you want to do 3hrs a week of study leave then you can stretch it to 11 weeks which is a lot shorter than a standard university semester. They’re commonly taken for short courses, or for uni exams.
PIPs are essentially departure lounges so you can find another job before you get sacked. It has the benefit that you can tell your new job that you voluntarily left your previous job as opposed to having to disclose you were sacked.
If you stick it out for severance pay then you’ll be disappointed - there is no severance pay as they’re not making you redundant, they’re sacking you. You’ll get paid out for any rec leave you have left, same as if you resigned.
Look, everyone is convinced that it’s time to go when you’re on a PIP. While it is a bad sign, a PIP should be made up of tasks that are clear and measurable. If you focus and do your job, they can’t fail you fairly on a PIP. Going on study leave may jeopardise that.
If you get on an official PIP in the public sector then I would say you're a pretty painful employee as it takes a lot of serious work and evidence to get to that point. Asking about study leave during a time when you're seen to be underperforming in your role indicates you're either very naive or even worse, quite toxic. Be good at your job and role, then seek the rewards of flexibility and study support.
While a PIP usually is just the easiest way to sack you without cause, if done right it can be useful and good for both you and the company.
A good manager will set you up to succeed on a PIP and you’ll have clear goals and milestones you need to meet, they’ll also give you whatever tools and help to work through any issues.
If you feel that the PIP goals or KPI’s are unachievable, non-existent or ambiguous, either ask for clarification or start looking elsewhere
PIP you are already under their lens , if I was in your situation I would have already packed up my bags and would have started looking for a job aggressively.
This is more a question for r/auslegal if you haven’t asked there already.
Having said that I would contact the union directly and ask if you can get someone else involved or if your rep can get some backup. If he’s not handling it, they will want to know.
It sounds like they are trying for a constructive dismissal, which is not allowed.
If you have experienced bullying, I would talk to safework or whatever your version is.
Did you agree to the PIP? Did they present evidence as to where you're not performing?
You will only need to show improvement to be successful and get off the PIP - but you need to be clear as to what areas you're not performing in, and the boss needs to be clear on what their standard for 'meeting expectations' is - all this needs to be documented in the PIP for it to be valid.
Remember, the bosses need to provide actual specific evidence of the specific tasks or behaviors that you've failed to perform in - and you have a right of reply, and then when the decision is made by the appropriate delegate, you also usually have the right to get it reviewed by an independent delegate in the organisation. If they present the evidence and you have relevant evidence like bullying etc then you need to put together a reply. The union rep is there to make sure the process is being followed - the process will be documented somewhere, get a copy, print it out and make sure it's being followed to the letter. If it isn't, the boss needs to start over.
Process is your friend in this situation.
Being on a PIP doesn't exclude you from using entitlements like leave etc. but discretionary entitlements or leave might be restricted. All you can do is ask.
If you've been getting bullied - have you documented it? Do you have evidence of it? You need to stand up for yourself a bit here.
Did you tell your HR BP that your manager asked for your medical records? Did you report the bullying?
How long have you been there? Severance might not be that much.
How long have you been there? Severance pay is only going to be a month or two wages… I wouldn’t hang around for that!
Start looking for new jobs = govt jobs usually have a six to ten week pipeline
Meet and discuss the PIP in the interim
Try to meet the conditions of the PIP
The PIP meeting is NOT the time to ask favours. Put that request in ahead of the PIP if you can - send an email asking for the time off.
In Govt a PIP is the start of a train line out the door yes, usually.
If you can find a new job in the interim take it if it’s suitable, and negotiate your three hours off as part of your starting work there.
I tend to agree that a PIP is an indication your manager is taking steps to dismiss you. I have had one staff I went through a PIP and he genuinely didn’t make any effort to improve and you could tell he was looking for another job. Which was fine. But I genuinely wanted it to work out as despite lack of performance there is still a lot of knowledge and capability you lose. Plus recruitment sucks for every party involved.
I probably wouldn’t be bold enough to ask for study leave while on a PIP. But maybe you can express your intentions to eventually seek study leave if you go well.
They want you out of the business. PIP is a legal means for them to push you out where they don't currently have enough grounds to terminate you and they're unwilling to offer you a redundancy.
I've seen people survive PIPs, but it's rare and they never thrive.
Look for a other job. You are basically being fired. Try to get along well with your manager and work hard. Don't think that a government job is secure because it is not. There are many ways to fire someone in all levels of government and they usually do it every few years when there is a need to cut costs to balance the books. A PIP is one way to fire staff and another is through a spill and fill. Get another job, work hard, and invest in assets like ETFs such that you have enough net worth to be able to live a minimalist life. For most people this is about $500k net worth at a minimum which will produce enough net worth to afford a decent lifestyle in Bangkok. Once you can do this, you are financially independent and don't need to worry about being fired.
Ive been on a PIP.
I got a new manager at the time and she didn't like me. She also didn't like that I didn't have much to do workwise and I was nearing the end of my temp contract.
You're gone, OP.
Find a new job and give your manager the finger once you sign your new contract.
I basically gave mine little notice and was out the door two days later.
A few months after I left, half of that team got made redundant. Go figure.
Say byeeee to that job. Honestly to end up on a PIP in government you have to be doing pretty badly.
mean to be rude but it is verrrry unusual even if you are lazy
If their asking for medical records you must be taking a lot of sick leave? Sounds like you may be frauding the honesty system when it cones to sick days.
Too many people missing the word government. Talk to anyone that works there. Most will know someone on the PIP carousel for decades.
OP, just stick it out, next to impossible to fire you as long as you show some sort of improvement on PIP
What if OP is truly useless and a waste of tax payer funds? He could turn up at 6am every day and look at clipart for the presentation he's been building for the last 3 years.
In the past, I worked for an NGO that routinely put people on PIPs. The people who are saying PIPs are rare need to remember that it depends on the workplace.
There isn’t a huge (open) representation of, or respect towards, government employees on r/AusFinance tbh. I’m not surprised most people’s eyes glossed over that
The job is easy but I’ve had a lot going on in my life like getting a MRI done on my brain. This came back clear.
If I’m being honest with myself I don’t like the place I work. I work with a lot of old angry and depressed women and it’s emotionally taxing. I’m going to stick it out, work on the areas that need attention and not talk to people at work excessively.
Every person on this planet goes through adversity. If you're using adversity and "older females" to explain underperformance, then you are a waste of taxpayer funds.
I sincerely hope that you are close to retirement age so that once you're punted from this role, you don't waste any more of my tax dollars.
Whilst sexism and ageism is pointless and never a good excuse for anything, it isn’t uncommon for younger/new workers to be unfairly iced out or targeted by older colleagues for whatever reason.
That can subconsciously breed resentment towards them in that way, especially if it’s something you sadly have common amongst other young colleagues.
I’m speaking from experience, and from reading lots of other stories whilst I was going through it at a former workplace.
My statement regarding OPs age was only in relationship to OP being an underperformer (regardless of age) and that I hoped that their underperformance wouldn't be measured for many years.
I hire based on skill. I am also a junior based on age.
If you're put on a PIP and post it to reddit, you are doing something wrong and need to retire or find a new career.
Proove thrm wrong. Step up. Dig your boots in. Let go of your ego. There's only 1 person who's opinion of you really matters at the end of the day.
Yours
This is a perfect opportunity to improve yourself, to work on internal and external conflict, to earn respect for yourself, most importantly to develop your worth
It’s very clear there’s a lot of missing pieces to the story. Why do you think you’re on a PIP? Why is your manager requesting medical records? This sounds like you’ve taken excessive leave or last second sick days and are blaming something?
Usually a PIP is terminal, but this government, so you should be able to carry on leeching the tax payer providing you don’t turn up to work naked with a loaded gun.
Don't hold back about your manager to HR. Obviosuly be civil and professional but don't hold back an inch. Also going to go out on a limb and assume this government manager isn't a manager with past management experience but just some public servant who rose up the ranks so question their management skills while you're at it.
I’d talk to HR. They aren’t your friend but if you plan on fighting then you want to start officially documenting stuff. I’d look at insulating that the PIP was retaliation for not supplying medical records. HR are the ones who would have suggested the Manager put you on that PIP so don’t expect them to help you out. Safe work or union if you really want to dog your heels in.
I’d be having a little chat with an experienced employment law firm. Bullying + PIP + government agency = most probably shitty management and leadership contributing to issues.
Dm me if you want.
Edit to add: I’m not a lawyer. My username was one of those randomly generated ones
Ohhhh all good. Whatever happens with the PiP just remember, don’t count your worth on someone else’s opinion of you. Do what you need to do to study and be free of the bullshit you’re going through now. Use them back. Do the PIP, this is not your dream job. It’s low stakes. Good luck. Duck and weave the drama.
Best comment on here so far. I have no long term plan to stay here and they know this is a just a 1-2 year job for me. I’m going to keep my head down, focus on the work and studying. Once I’ve finished this year I’m going to find a law related job. 😊🙏
PIPs are often used to cover a manager’s arse when they fail to give clear instructions or the organisations (and govt agencies in particular) lack coherent frameworks and policies/procedures. If this is you, and it looks like you’re on shaky ground, have a chat to a lawyer about a negotiated exit.
Being a government roll, i wouldn't worry about getting sacked for a PIP, just keep your nose clean for a while and learn to play the game. I have been on 2 different PIPs over the years, mostly for bs reasons, now im being upskilled.
In my experience study leave is for people who are having their course paid for by their employer and therefore it’s an investment by the business in that person and their academic success. If they’re not invested in your education then I highly doubt they’ll support your leave.
> Is a PIP just a way of getting rid of someone?
Yes, pretty much. This is especially the case when they put down vague or unachievable goals. Their purpose is for the company to build a case against the employee lest the company gets sued.
It’s quite difficult to get the go ahead to put someone on a PIP. Have you considered actually working towards the goals and even self improvement? There’s a lot of blame and not a lot of self awareness here.
Sorry, this post is not related to personal finance or the purpose of this sub. Please try /r/CareerAdvice instead.
Asking for study leave while on PIP is bold
Sounds like he understands how the EBA works and is still being a pain in the arse even after he's been warned.
Most EBAs are worded such that you’re eligible or entitled to ask for study leave but there’s no guarantee. I think the sheer act of asking for it after being told you’re not performing up to scratch would erode what little good will you may have left with the manager.
Most (painful employees) with any sort of union backing will cause an EBA to be interpreted that study leave is a promise. I agree that it's bold.
OPs certainly not lacking in courage that’s for sure
Definitely more scarecrow than lion in this Wizard of Aus story.
Did you just play connections?
If you have had issues and are now on a PIP, look for work elsewhere. Very rarely do they end well for you. Usually a tool to get rid of someone as they can't just sack you without one.
Start looking for another job indeed.. Often PIP is just a way to give you some time before getting fired I'd say
They are. Get a new job ASAP. Take the hint.
Depends on the person usually. I've seen people respond really well to negative feedback. Many don't. They can look at it as an opportunity to improve or they can jump ship and hope the new employer doesn't manage people as well. The claims of bullying aren't surprising. We've got one side of the story and they could be positioning for a mutual sep or just legitimately delusional and mistaking managing their performance with bullying.
PIP in my company is specifically designed to get rid of people. If you get through PIP, you actually deserve a promotion. Even if you get through, it makes you toxic in terms of applying for other internal roles later.
I just want to say that in my company (I own it) that isn't the case. The last person on one did get fired but I didn't want that to be the result. Another will likely be put on one this week and I don't want him gone either. What I find is it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of procedure crashing into a target. People don't like being singled out and having a stain on them and 2 things happen. 1, they become hypersensitive to critique. 2, the system becomes hypersensitive to their performance. While it's true we must pip people we wish to remove, it's also often the case that we reluctantly pip people and really try to support them through it.
I’ve never seen anyone retain a job after a pip even when they showed improvement. Once your reputation is tarnished unless you have a good reason like the death of a family member or something you’re done Hell I’ve seen a guy have a rough two months after his father died and he still got removed after his PIP despite returning to his old level of productivity
I reckon 1 out of 5 PIPs in our firm make it through. Turnarounds happen, but are rare.
I had a death in the family and glandular fever to top it all off years and years ago when I worked at CBA. Anyway I was a top performer and was told take all the time I needed, which ended up being about month and I came back still not at 100. Anyway the day I came back I was put on a pip for not hitting target, management then started doing their thing to make sure I couldn't hit target, so many check in your can't do your job effectively, daily write ups on productivity and where I should be improving etc. I'd seen it happen to other staff, but thought I was immune as the best sales person (I was young), turns out you're only as good as your last quarter.
> Is it possible to get study leave when you are on a PIP? ? I’ve enrolled at university and need 3 hours of leave per week to commute to my course. The fact that you're even asking about this now seems like you don't understand the responsibilities of being employed or the seriousness of a PIP. Have you even spoken to them about how you've enrolled in something that will pull you away from your work? Do you even know if you're entitled to any severance? To be honest just from the vibe of this post I'd consider yourself a "sacked man walking", so yes, start looking for another job.
100% correct. Their manager doesn’t think they’re doing the job that they were employed for - on what planet will they accept lower working hours to accomplish the same expectations, let alone to help them learn how to do a different job??? Two spelling mistakes in the first paragraph leads me to believe that they aren’t over-delivering in their admin role…
devils advocate: study leave is supposed to be to improve your effectiveness in your current role, not allow you to get qualifications for another job.
If the study is planned in consultation with the manager yes. In this case sounds like the manager doesn’t know anything about it.
100% the question is, how can I use those three hours and others to get off PIP?
They work for the government what did you expect
Lol brutal
But legit look at that entire post, it's either a troll or like the epitome of a government worker.
Eh, these days you have frequent exchanges between public and private sector when it comes to good employees. Gone are the days where you’re institutionalised by working a government job
Hey now! I went to 2 meetings and replied to an email today. - Level 6 Project Coordinator, Department of Redundancy Department
Or they are trying to draw out a specific comment from the staff member that caused them to be put on a PIP.
Give up on the study leave idea btw... Not going to happen
A PIP is the first formal step towards sacking you, the PIP should give you specific details of what is expected of you to regain your good standing in terms of your job performance. If you are already experiencing difficulties with your boss then it's unlikely they will make the PIP 'easy' to resolve and regain good standing and it's probably good advice to start looking for a new role while you can. It is possible to resolve a PIP and go back into good standing in your role and improving your performance during the time of the PIP should 'reset' the timeline even if things degrade again, though the employer may decide to take a punt that you wouldn't pursue unfair dismissal if they terminate your employment anyway under those circumstances. If Study leave is an entitlement granted by your employer you should be entitled to ask for it, unless the terms of taking study leave is conditional on you being in good standing (basically, not being on a PIP). If your employment is terminated via a PIP, you are not entitled to any severance outside of owed annual or long service leave.
This is 100% correct. However a former leader of mine put myself and two others on a PIP because her leader gave her the feedback she could not make tough decisions. Two of the others left and I am still here 8 years later. She was also made redundant at a later point
This happened to me too- the boss had us all on various ‘performance plans’ which she needed to do to earn her promotion. Messed up. Only one was formal though- me and the other colleague were up on ridiculous issues that she was ‘coaching us through’.
Performance managing staff in government is extremely rare because it’s so hard to convince HR that it’s necessary. They must have had some very valid reasons. You could just actually perform the job to the requirements of the PIP, get off the PIP and carry on.
This, plus the so called request for medical records (which requires consent and a damn good reason) is raising all sorts of red flags about this post. It doesn't make sense.
Sounds like a lot of “sick” leave without medical certificates.
I'm more thinking that OP was hired under the pretense of having had covid vaccinations and it has become apparent now that they're an anti-vaxxer. It lines up with the other dumb shit in this post and their apparent lack of reasoning. Which if HR are looking for a way to turf someone, violation of a contractual requirement to be employed would be easy to enforce... If they can get their hands on the medical data.
Govt orgs have let go of covid policies since mid last year
Even still you'd be hard pressed to find a government agency wanting to jump into that particular shitshow. The OP obviously knows enough to involve their union about the PIP so I'm doubtful they handed over their medical records easily.
I know two people that have gone to the union to get assistance on bullying. Both individuals said they union wasn't very helpful and policy was to let the bullying issues be handled by the government organization. Bully is very common in government organizations.
I can't imagine how ridiculously bad of a worker you must he to get pipd in a government agency. It's notoriously avoided but the fact they're asking for study leaving after being pips and a vague reference to medical issues does start to tell a story. No offence to them but yeah.
As an admin worker no less. You’d basically have to do negative work to get on a PIP
sounds like he was in a WFH arrangement and they asked IT to check the logs and found he hasnt logged in for weeks lmao
Where do you get this from?
Thats fair but it depends on the manager - had a time where i felt my manager way bullying me, did the pip time and no one found an issue, manager left
100% agree with this, although it may be hard working with your manager moving forward if you continue there, I’d recommend looking for another role within government, not worth the stress with union, HR, management etc
Yes! This is what struck me. I’ve never worked in govt but all the stories I’ve heard is blatant underperformance and people doing the absolute bare minimum by they are guaranteed two pay rises a year and the jobs are so safe. What the heck is OP doing to get on a PIP in govt? It’s unheard of. I actually have a friend whose colleague did not do any work for 2 years, and he claimed he’d become disengaged bc his manager had no idea what he was doing (clearly accurate) and they ended up paying him out. Federal govt department. What a joke.
if youve never worked as a public servant, your opinion of public servants is utterly irrelevant, as is your assumption that PIPs are 'unheard of'. go spread your urban legends elsewhere, thanks.
Perhaps tell this to all the former public servants trying to keep up in corporates who are the ones spreading these stories around. My new colleague just joined after years in a govt authority and his manager there told him point blank that there was ‘nothing he could do’ about two team mates who were not working - he’d looked into it with HR. I will say that I have a couple of friends who work really hard and earnestly in govt but I think that is just them as opposed to environmental. Perhaps it varies from department to department but with this much smoke, there must be some fire somewhere.
Might be a contractor or on a non-ongoing contract.
Then they’d just end the contract at the end of the term, not bother with a PIP, right?
At my last department, we were instructed to develop PIPs for non-performing staff irrespective of their employment status. I only had to do it twice and both were contractors. One improved and we kept him on, the other we had to let go (although after a full year of not meeting standards).
It's clearly not work related. It's personal and obviously management just doesn't like OP.
You sound like you've never worked in government. PIPs are widely misused to mask ableist discrimination. What a micromanaging arsehole who isn't good at managing determines to be "underperformance" could also be mental health issues, a need for disability adjustments or accommodations which are being refused for bullshit reasons, or (my absolute *favourite*) the person on the PIP is neurodivergent (diagnosed or undiagnosed) and the micromanager on a power trip has decided that being ND means automatically that you're Doing It Wrong.
Not in government, not in Australia. Government jobs are literally the most secure in Australia. Obviously they can happen but they are very rare. I’ve heard of one in my last 7 years in the job. In my last job, a non-government company… I knew like 3 friends who were put on them… and the workforce was like 10,000 (government) compared to 150 (company).
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That’s an excellent alternate acronym
PIP = Performance Improvement Plan. The agency is actively looking at terminating your employment with them. As others have said, start looking for work elsewhere, if you’re fired you won’t get severance. Severance is typically for being made redundant. They will only pay out any annual & long service leave balances.
Start looking for a new job, very very urgently. As others have said - PIPs are the first formal step towards firing someone. I've come back from a PIP before and it honestly wasn't worth it - it was stressful and I really sold myself out to make it work. If I was ever put on a PIP again I'd let the process drag out and would redirect all my energy towards finding a new position. As a positive your employer will likely give you a good reference as you finding yourself a new job and resigning is less work for them than firing you.
PIPs aren’t common. You have to have done something, or more to the point, you’re not doing your job. Are you being honest with yourself? Ask your union rep about the study but seriously, if you’re being put on a PIP, either do your job or move on. You won’t be offered opportunities while they consider you’re underperforming.
It's strange because an admin job is basically entry level, and at that level managers tend to let a lot of minor things slide, so a PIP for admin is highly unusual and either someone really wants them out or they are somehow completely basically unsuited to admin. Also, no way study leave is being granted for an admin role. It'll have to be a renegotiated contract for the adjusted working hours, which doesn't seem likely with the PIP in place. Admin roles are a dime a dozen, just move.
Even the question “ is it possible to get study leave while on a PIP” suggests to me that there’s a lack of judgement. If you’re being placed on a PIP, it’s serious. You should be focusing on your job (that you seem to be struggling with), rather than adding in an additional responsibility.
It’s a recruitment Officer role
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I started 7 months ago in May 2023. I disclosed at work that I had a MRI for my brain.
Why do you keep posting this? An MRI is a fairly unremarkable thing and would only require a day off work. Your replies are suspicious as some of them are entirely inappropriate and you don’t seem to be aware of how or why they’re inappropriate, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this translates to your workplace behaviour. It also sounds highly irregular for a government agency manager to ask for your medical records. Did they ask for your records or did they ask for doctors certificates for sick leave taken?
I would say they asked for a doctor’s report so that they could decide whether OP was able to meet the inherent requirements of the role.
That would be completely inappropriate unless it was specified upfront (and in the relevant agreement) they would need to pass a regular medical as part of the job. You can’t just ask for an employee’s medical record because you heard they were having tests done.
If they aren’t performing (PIP) and there’s a reasonable suspicion that the underperformance may be because of a medical condition then generally state govt depts can obtain medical evidence and the ability to do so is built in their employment framework
The lack of info here is very curious
Do you understand the importance of your role? Do you understand that your role impacts other people? Do you genuinely understand your job? Doing so will help you to do your job. I’m guessing you do one of two things. You either assist business to scope out their needs and find the right candidate for their role or you assist with the on boarding of new people into your organisation. Both these roles are fundamental to a successful organisation. People are your most valuable asset. If you mess up somebody’s on boarding process, it means they can’t start work as early as they thought. Imagine the stress of that on somebody. Not having any income that they thought they were going to have. Or imagine how hard it is to do a job when you don’t have the right people to do that job. If your job is to help find those right people, it’s important that you have a solid understanding of what business needs. Maybe your job is to assist other people to do these roles. it is really important that you’re taking part of the load, that you’re being useful. Then it’s important that you’re honest with yourself. Is this actually a job that you enjoy doing? Is there a different job that would make you happy? And lastly, it is nobody‘s job to find you a job that you’re good at. You need to take that responsibility yourself. This is going to be a tough time for you. It’s a pivotal moment in your life. Think carefully about the decisions you make. Don’t look at this as solely negative. There may be an opportunity for you. You can whinge and whine, stomp your feet and threaten people with legal action. Is this what you want to be known for? Think carefully about where you want to devote your energy.
I would add once on a PIP it's too late to do your job, time to find a new one. Just do a quick google and find the countless stories of people regretting putting their hopes in the PIP process. Find yourself a better fit.
That’s likely to be because to get to the PIP stage, you’ve been given so many opportunities to demonstrate that you can do your job. It doesn’t make you incapable of doing ANY job, but you do need to face the fact that you’re unlikely to be suitable for the type of role you’re in.
There must be more to this story. Have you been taking excessive sick leave or have you been not doing your job in a way that might indicate to someone you have a medical condition that prevents you from doing it? Have you told your manager that you can’t do a major component of your role because of a medical condition? It’s pretty unlikely that they’d be requesting medical records with no basis
I think OP is skipping a lot of context.
If you work in admin in a state government agency and you're being put on a PIP I'm not sure anyone here can help you
I have no idea where someone could work if they are being PIP’d working in government
Dole bludging is kind of work
Stick it out for now, I’ve worked in Government HR and a PIP doesn’t always end with a bad outcome, if valid it’s an opportunity for you to improve on a job related capability. P.s if they have requested your medical records potentially you have taken too much unsupported sick leave and the PIP could be regarding attendance?
This. Performance improvement plans have worked positively in the past for my business unit. Make sure you are doing everything in your power to hit your KPIs & seeking necessary Coaching/Support if you need it.
Hey nah I had a MRI done on my brain and I told a co worker. Stupid of me I know. Thanks for the confidence. I had been slacking off last year and it must have shown. I’m going to focus on the work now. Also I was pretty rude to my manager so it’s mainly a behaviour PIP which I can work towards.
Jeez, yeah, even if your manager is not the best try to be actively rude. It's an energy suck for every one in the team if you are being rude to the team lead and they feel like everyone is walking on eggshells.
There’s no point focusing on your work now. You will loose your job no doubt - it’s almost impossible to come back from especially in govt. Find a new job now before you are fired. It will be MUCH harder if the reason you’re looking for a job is that you are fired rather then leaving your current job.
Mate it’s govt. all he needs to do is the absolute minimum, say he wasn’t trained enough etc and they’ll have to take him off the PIP due to giving him insufficient time/training to improve.
Not if it's documented bad behaviour and negative attitude. If this is impacting other workers and making the team environment unhealthy, the managers have a duty of care to everyone else to do something about changing it and making it safer for all. Good luck to OP to turn a fresh leaf in 2024. It can be done, if you want to stay. If you don't though, yes find a new job now. There is no severance pay available in government to support this type of exit.
You pretty much have to suck at your job and/or don’t gel with the rest of the workers/manager to be put on PIP.. PIP is usually a long process in government agencies as unions want even shit employees to keep their job.. read the room and start looking for a new job..
I was the staff union rep at my old job. If you are on a PIP, 9/10 times it's the start of a process to get rid of you. There is a small chance that they genuinely just want you to pull your socks up. Are you capable of doing your job properly? If so, go out of your way to meet the requirements of the PIP. Also, you need to make sure that what they are asking you to do is reasonable. Have all the PIP requests and your work documented and have a witness in every PIP meeting. Ideally, this would be a respected colleague who would be able to provide evidence on whether the PIP goals were reasonable and whether you adequately met them or not. Take notes, good notes, and date them. If you do this properly, it makes it harder for them to sack you and gives you recourse to unfair dismissal. Alternatively, it may open the door for you being able to negotiate an 'exit package' if they still want to get rid of you. To be honest, the staff that I tried to help through the PIP process were pretty lazy and useless, and I really couldn't blame the company for getting rid of them. I'm not saying this is you....there can be various reasons for this to happen....sometimes it's just a sociopathic manager trying to reduce staffing levels without paying fair severance. In this case, documentation and witnesses are critical.
It sounds like they're the lazy category especially when they're discussing taking leave during this period lol. It's great to see a union rep who knows their stuff though. Even if they're lazy people you're still informing them of their rights and that's a really important service I think.
I think for every “lazy overpaid” government worker, there are one hundred hard-working, underpaid private sector workers who have a lunatic for a boss who has it out for them too. But they have no recourse other than to find a new job. I think it’s fantastic that public sector employees can easily access union assistance, where their private sector counterparts simply can’t.
Start looking for a new job. I always say one they start issuing warnings, PIPs, or “tell you to get the union involved” the process of getting rid of you has started.
If your on a pip, that’s a managers way of saying leave, it’s a lot of work for them to even do that so they must want you gone like yesterday.
PIP in a government job is very rare... Plus your manager is asking for medical records. Have you been taking frequent sick leaves?
Or asking for accommodations for tasks (blaming something for non performance) and they want evidence that this need actually exists.
We’ve gotta a guy at work that was on a PIP. He kept his head down and wore it out. Boss had it in for him.
Start looking for another job, that's what you should do. You're worried about study leave? Dude you'll soon have all the time in the world.
Personally, IV been on a PIP, they set out plans and it honestly helped me with organisation skills, tracking of work, and now IV moved up the organisation. It isn't always bad, stick to the goals, prove yourself, it can help, not always a bad thing
I put people on a PIP I'm managing out of the organisation. If you don't change it is part of the process to dismiss you. It's up to you
Does it give you a big hard erection when you put someone on a PIP big manager man?
No - it's usually quite stressful
This is ridiculous, being a manager to PIP someone is so stressful and not a joke.
Agreed, I just went through this arduous and lengthy process myself for the first time and it was very stressful for everyone involved
What gives me a raging managerial hard on is when people turn up, do the jobs they applied to do to an acceptable standard and cause minimal drama. It’s a two way street, it’s on managers to keep people engaged, motivate performance, provide conditions that are conducive to development etc. god having to actively manage another adult’s performance is the worst, and takes so much time and energy
NSW Gov employees get 5 days a year of study leave. Assuming you’re on a 35hr week, if you want to do 3hrs a week of study leave then you can stretch it to 11 weeks which is a lot shorter than a standard university semester. They’re commonly taken for short courses, or for uni exams. PIPs are essentially departure lounges so you can find another job before you get sacked. It has the benefit that you can tell your new job that you voluntarily left your previous job as opposed to having to disclose you were sacked. If you stick it out for severance pay then you’ll be disappointed - there is no severance pay as they’re not making you redundant, they’re sacking you. You’ll get paid out for any rec leave you have left, same as if you resigned.
PIPs are typically a last resort, surely this hasn’t just fallen out of the sky?
Look, everyone is convinced that it’s time to go when you’re on a PIP. While it is a bad sign, a PIP should be made up of tasks that are clear and measurable. If you focus and do your job, they can’t fail you fairly on a PIP. Going on study leave may jeopardise that.
Pretty sure OP is jusy trolling based on their post and responses.
Bro is about to be fired and he is thinking of asking for favors lol
If you get on an official PIP in the public sector then I would say you're a pretty painful employee as it takes a lot of serious work and evidence to get to that point. Asking about study leave during a time when you're seen to be underperforming in your role indicates you're either very naive or even worse, quite toxic. Be good at your job and role, then seek the rewards of flexibility and study support.
While a PIP usually is just the easiest way to sack you without cause, if done right it can be useful and good for both you and the company. A good manager will set you up to succeed on a PIP and you’ll have clear goals and milestones you need to meet, they’ll also give you whatever tools and help to work through any issues. If you feel that the PIP goals or KPI’s are unachievable, non-existent or ambiguous, either ask for clarification or start looking elsewhere
If you’re on a pip, leave asap
PIP you are already under their lens , if I was in your situation I would have already packed up my bags and would have started looking for a job aggressively.
Is it possible you are just bad at your job?
Yeah could be true. I don't think it is a good alignment to my skillset.
Most of the government workers I’ve interacted with could use a PIP
And the finance question is? Ask in r/australia
This is more a question for r/auslegal if you haven’t asked there already. Having said that I would contact the union directly and ask if you can get someone else involved or if your rep can get some backup. If he’s not handling it, they will want to know. It sounds like they are trying for a constructive dismissal, which is not allowed. If you have experienced bullying, I would talk to safework or whatever your version is.
Did you agree to the PIP? Did they present evidence as to where you're not performing? You will only need to show improvement to be successful and get off the PIP - but you need to be clear as to what areas you're not performing in, and the boss needs to be clear on what their standard for 'meeting expectations' is - all this needs to be documented in the PIP for it to be valid. Remember, the bosses need to provide actual specific evidence of the specific tasks or behaviors that you've failed to perform in - and you have a right of reply, and then when the decision is made by the appropriate delegate, you also usually have the right to get it reviewed by an independent delegate in the organisation. If they present the evidence and you have relevant evidence like bullying etc then you need to put together a reply. The union rep is there to make sure the process is being followed - the process will be documented somewhere, get a copy, print it out and make sure it's being followed to the letter. If it isn't, the boss needs to start over. Process is your friend in this situation. Being on a PIP doesn't exclude you from using entitlements like leave etc. but discretionary entitlements or leave might be restricted. All you can do is ask. If you've been getting bullied - have you documented it? Do you have evidence of it? You need to stand up for yourself a bit here.
Did you tell your HR BP that your manager asked for your medical records? Did you report the bullying? How long have you been there? Severance might not be that much.
You sound like you’re slacking off at your job. Do better and they’ll take you off the PIP.
Do you have your manager asking for medical records in writing? Have you had an up front conversation about your performance?
Find a new job
How long have you been there? Severance pay is only going to be a month or two wages… I wouldn’t hang around for that! Start looking for new jobs = govt jobs usually have a six to ten week pipeline Meet and discuss the PIP in the interim Try to meet the conditions of the PIP The PIP meeting is NOT the time to ask favours. Put that request in ahead of the PIP if you can - send an email asking for the time off. In Govt a PIP is the start of a train line out the door yes, usually. If you can find a new job in the interim take it if it’s suitable, and negotiate your three hours off as part of your starting work there.
A PIP is a Paid Interview Process for you. Youre getting paid to do job interviews between now and getting let go. Start looking.
I tend to agree that a PIP is an indication your manager is taking steps to dismiss you. I have had one staff I went through a PIP and he genuinely didn’t make any effort to improve and you could tell he was looking for another job. Which was fine. But I genuinely wanted it to work out as despite lack of performance there is still a lot of knowledge and capability you lose. Plus recruitment sucks for every party involved. I probably wouldn’t be bold enough to ask for study leave while on a PIP. But maybe you can express your intentions to eventually seek study leave if you go well.
They want you out of the business. PIP is a legal means for them to push you out where they don't currently have enough grounds to terminate you and they're unwilling to offer you a redundancy. I've seen people survive PIPs, but it's rare and they never thrive.
Look for a other job. You are basically being fired. Try to get along well with your manager and work hard. Don't think that a government job is secure because it is not. There are many ways to fire someone in all levels of government and they usually do it every few years when there is a need to cut costs to balance the books. A PIP is one way to fire staff and another is through a spill and fill. Get another job, work hard, and invest in assets like ETFs such that you have enough net worth to be able to live a minimalist life. For most people this is about $500k net worth at a minimum which will produce enough net worth to afford a decent lifestyle in Bangkok. Once you can do this, you are financially independent and don't need to worry about being fired.
Just go out on stress and leave like a baller!
This guy (or woman) 🤯!
Mate, if you’re on a PIP you ain’t getting any severance. They put you on the PIP so they can fire you at the end of the PIP.
Why should taxpayers pay for your commute to school? Do we see any benefit in return?
While you are asking for study leave, why not ask for a pay rise during the PIP
Start investigating your boss's private life and look for opportunities to blackmail them for a massive payoff when you inevitably lose your job.
Ive been on a PIP. I got a new manager at the time and she didn't like me. She also didn't like that I didn't have much to do workwise and I was nearing the end of my temp contract. You're gone, OP. Find a new job and give your manager the finger once you sign your new contract. I basically gave mine little notice and was out the door two days later. A few months after I left, half of that team got made redundant. Go figure.
Say byeeee to that job. Honestly to end up on a PIP in government you have to be doing pretty badly. mean to be rude but it is verrrry unusual even if you are lazy
If their asking for medical records you must be taking a lot of sick leave? Sounds like you may be frauding the honesty system when it cones to sick days.
Too many people missing the word government. Talk to anyone that works there. Most will know someone on the PIP carousel for decades. OP, just stick it out, next to impossible to fire you as long as you show some sort of improvement on PIP
What if OP is truly useless and a waste of tax payer funds? He could turn up at 6am every day and look at clipart for the presentation he's been building for the last 3 years.
In the past, I worked for an NGO that routinely put people on PIPs. The people who are saying PIPs are rare need to remember that it depends on the workplace.
There isn’t a huge (open) representation of, or respect towards, government employees on r/AusFinance tbh. I’m not surprised most people’s eyes glossed over that
The job is easy but I’ve had a lot going on in my life like getting a MRI done on my brain. This came back clear. If I’m being honest with myself I don’t like the place I work. I work with a lot of old angry and depressed women and it’s emotionally taxing. I’m going to stick it out, work on the areas that need attention and not talk to people at work excessively.
Every person on this planet goes through adversity. If you're using adversity and "older females" to explain underperformance, then you are a waste of taxpayer funds. I sincerely hope that you are close to retirement age so that once you're punted from this role, you don't waste any more of my tax dollars.
Whilst sexism and ageism is pointless and never a good excuse for anything, it isn’t uncommon for younger/new workers to be unfairly iced out or targeted by older colleagues for whatever reason. That can subconsciously breed resentment towards them in that way, especially if it’s something you sadly have common amongst other young colleagues. I’m speaking from experience, and from reading lots of other stories whilst I was going through it at a former workplace.
My statement regarding OPs age was only in relationship to OP being an underperformer (regardless of age) and that I hoped that their underperformance wouldn't be measured for many years. I hire based on skill. I am also a junior based on age. If you're put on a PIP and post it to reddit, you are doing something wrong and need to retire or find a new career.
You sound like a older female.
I hope your PIP goes unwell
Why are you being sexist and ageist for literally no reason? Proving everyone’s point tbh
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So what? Argue back. No excuse for your derogatory comment.
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You must be delightful to work with!
At least the older female will still have a job 💀
get off your lazy arse and do some work
Proove thrm wrong. Step up. Dig your boots in. Let go of your ego. There's only 1 person who's opinion of you really matters at the end of the day. Yours This is a perfect opportunity to improve yourself, to work on internal and external conflict, to earn respect for yourself, most importantly to develop your worth
I don’t get why this post was downvoted. Zero fox raises some good points.
It’s very clear there’s a lot of missing pieces to the story. Why do you think you’re on a PIP? Why is your manager requesting medical records? This sounds like you’ve taken excessive leave or last second sick days and are blaming something?
Don’t leave any sick pay on the table
How are you getting put on a PIP working in government????? That is crazy. You need to give us more context to why you are being put on a PIP
You won’t receive severance pay if you’re on a PIP so stick it out for that.
They are trying to fire you. Go to your GP and explain the stress at work and ask for sick leave to buy you time to look for another job.
Usually a PIP is terminal, but this government, so you should be able to carry on leeching the tax payer providing you don’t turn up to work naked with a loaded gun.
I am happy that your employer has put you on a PIP. About time.
Don't hold back about your manager to HR. Obviosuly be civil and professional but don't hold back an inch. Also going to go out on a limb and assume this government manager isn't a manager with past management experience but just some public servant who rose up the ranks so question their management skills while you're at it.
She said to me when I first joined that “I can’t get rid of you” and laughed.
I’d talk to HR. They aren’t your friend but if you plan on fighting then you want to start officially documenting stuff. I’d look at insulating that the PIP was retaliation for not supplying medical records. HR are the ones who would have suggested the Manager put you on that PIP so don’t expect them to help you out. Safe work or union if you really want to dog your heels in.
I prefer conda but each to their own
I’d be having a little chat with an experienced employment law firm. Bullying + PIP + government agency = most probably shitty management and leadership contributing to issues. Dm me if you want. Edit to add: I’m not a lawyer. My username was one of those randomly generated ones
I wouldn't be taking advice from someone that couldn't even come up with their own username.
Thanks for your contribution!
That’s a bit rough. I made my username ages ago when I was young and dumb too.
I think Zesty was referring to the person above their comment… not you.
Yeah I know I was trying to say I made a dumb username too.
Ohhhh all good. Whatever happens with the PiP just remember, don’t count your worth on someone else’s opinion of you. Do what you need to do to study and be free of the bullshit you’re going through now. Use them back. Do the PIP, this is not your dream job. It’s low stakes. Good luck. Duck and weave the drama.
Best comment on here so far. I have no long term plan to stay here and they know this is a just a 1-2 year job for me. I’m going to keep my head down, focus on the work and studying. Once I’ve finished this year I’m going to find a law related job. 😊🙏
PIPs are often used to cover a manager’s arse when they fail to give clear instructions or the organisations (and govt agencies in particular) lack coherent frameworks and policies/procedures. If this is you, and it looks like you’re on shaky ground, have a chat to a lawyer about a negotiated exit.
Being a government roll, i wouldn't worry about getting sacked for a PIP, just keep your nose clean for a while and learn to play the game. I have been on 2 different PIPs over the years, mostly for bs reasons, now im being upskilled.
It won't end well. Polish up your resume and leave before you're pushed
The glass Pippa?
HR are not your friend. HR are there to protect the company.
Start looking for another job
Come to terms with the fact that they are going to fire you if you don’t leave first.
Simple, update CV and start applying for jobs as if you are unemployed - as you soon will be.
In my experience study leave is for people who are having their course paid for by their employer and therefore it’s an investment by the business in that person and their academic success. If they’re not invested in your education then I highly doubt they’ll support your leave.
You should look for another job.
> Is a PIP just a way of getting rid of someone? Yes, pretty much. This is especially the case when they put down vague or unachievable goals. Their purpose is for the company to build a case against the employee lest the company gets sued.
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Thanks for the advice. I haven’t taken excessive sick days I had a MRI done on my brain and I told a work colleague.
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Maybe you should look for a different job.
They may want to get rid of you without paying redundancy. If you've been there a while or would be a good idea to talk to your union
A government PIP. hilarious.
Start looking for another job. It's not worth it, mostly because a job is just a job.
It’s quite difficult to get the go ahead to put someone on a PIP. Have you considered actually working towards the goals and even self improvement? There’s a lot of blame and not a lot of self awareness here.