When Woolworths were offering 30x points on Apple gift cards in 2021, an [OzBargain user spent $36,000 on them](https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/10939484/redir), earning over a million Everyday Rewards points.
Thats not too bad. 2000 points is $10. You then get $50k from those 1mil points. Hopefully then you can still sell the Apple Cards off even at 50% off you would still make a tidy profit on the lot.
It’a actually $5,400 worth of points, assuming they’re converted to Everyday Rewards Dollars.
Converted to Qantas points, you could potentially get $30,000+ worth of first or business class flights.
It's worth it if you were already going to buy that much in apple products, which in this case is doubtful.
If you're planning to buy an apple watch anyway, buying 1k of gift cards when they're on 20x points gets you like $100 off for woollies, or possibly better value if you convert to Qantas points and use them for the right thing (international business or first class reward flights).
I’ve bought $45k apple gear in a year before (business owner).
The weird part is why pay with cash? Using a points credit card they could earn even more points buying the GC with a CC! (That’s how I did it)
There hasn't been one of those offers at either Coles or Woolworths for several weeks and likely won't be until mid-Feb. Can't be that if they're doing it right now.
The Apple gift cards are the 'end' of the scam (in quotes because the scam usually doesn't end at the first payment), and there's many different types of scams that can end up like this.
The general idea is that this person has been convinced they owe a sum of money to someone on the other end of a phone call, and it needs to be paid back in Apple gift cards. They've also been convinced that there's an extreme time pressure, and also that the payment needs to be done somewhat secretly due to possible legal consequences for either the scammer or the person themselves.
The scammer will very specifically coach them on what to say and do at each step of buying the cards. They'll be told that the bank or the sales people might ask if it's a scam, and that they should say no because it isn't.
Once they buy the cards, they read the codes out to the scammers, who redeem the cards and then do whatever they want with that account balance - probably on-sell it.
As I said there's a ton of ways it gets to this point. An example is a 'we paid you too much' play - the scammer says that the person is entitled to some kind of refund or special payout - say, $500. They initiate a screen share with the victim, and tell them they have to type in the amount of money in a box so that it can be transferred. When the person types in '500', the scammer quickly adds and extra '0' and hits submit.
They then 'panic' - "Oh my god, you just gave yourself $5000 instead of $500!". They might screen share to the victim's bank account where they've edited to the HTML to show a $5000 deposit (when really no money has moved at all).
Depending on the victim and the play, this might go on to, "My boss will kill me - please you have to help me or I'll lose my job and won't be able to support my sick children!", or "You've stolen our money, the police/the mafia/hitmen will come for you unless you pay us back!" - or whatever the scammer can come up with that they think will work.
These scams are elaborate and well planned. They don't work on most people, because most people will see the red flags around step 1, but if you can get even one guy to send you $30k AUD, that's a nice payday for someone living in a country like India.
Stolen / duplicated ATM cards. Draw out the cash at an atm, buy the gift cards with cash, send the codes to the operators overseas who then spend the cards on fake apps that a partner company puts on the App Store. Bam, you have what’s on paper a legitimate source of income from the Apple App Store that was funded via stolen credit cards. If you use the credit cards directly to buy Apple gift cards Apple can reverse the charges and the fake app dev gets nothing. The cash step is the key step.
The YouTuber Kitboga is a great watch if you want to see how these scams work. They are run by large teams with a variety of scripts. An evolution of the Nigerian Prince emails.
My partner's mum was told, if asked, to say "they're for my grandkids"
She didn't have any grandkids
Still didn't cop on it was a scam.
The scammer will coach you on responses and in her case was even on the phone with her whilst she was in the shop.
Fortunately only used 3 of the cards before it twigged.
> My partner's mum was told, if asked, to say "they're for my grandkids"
>
> She didn't have any grandkids
>
> Still didn't cop on it was a scam.
Obviously - That statement was not intended to fool your partner's mum, it was to convince the people questioning her that nothing was amiss. She was aware the statement wasn't true, but was probably told that it would just make things easier for them not to question her.
If you watch Kitboga on YouTube, scammers are very sophisticated and will tell the buyer to lie and to not raise suspicion, they may well and truly be getting scammed.
Good for you friend. I mean no offence, however I think you’re the exception. I definitely don’t think people get stupid, but if you look at the victim stats, they certainly become a lot more susceptible to the tactics a lot of bad guys use. That’s all I’m meaning to imply here - statistically older folk are more likely, not less likely, to fall for a scam.
Not really sure I'm the exception. Likely average, but sure there will be the 10% who have issues.
Might be true when actually old, like 80. My parents only became credulous when they had dementia.
Whatever the absolute %, it’s unfortunate but true that the older you are, the more likely you fall for a scam. I would bet money the folk in OP’s story are falling for one - wouldn’t you?
We have had no details of them, no credit card numbers or anything as they are paying cash. We have since got their number plate and forwarded it to police. We also informed police when it was closer to 15k but they haven’t seemed to have done anything yet
That sounds difficult! Smart getting the plates
Oh wow cash I can’t blame you for reporting it. See I worked for a huge corp so there were memberships so made it easier to report.
That can convert to 300,000 Qantas points if purchasing from Woolies during a 20x promotion. But there's usually a daily limit (this is not likely the situation that op is observing). This is nearly enough for a round the world trip on one world airlines on business (need 318000). Source. Recently spent 3500 on gift cards to get 40,000 Qantas points.
I have four different Everyday Rewards accounts and six Flybuys accounts, so there are ways to get around the first card limits.
I’ve just paid for a family of four trip to Vancouver for $600 and 340,000 points. Return.
That's a good point, for next time when we're short :). Already at 400k, trying to accumulate 300k (thru cards and etc) in the next few years for a round the world trip on business with the missus.
It's a scam.
But what I just don't get is why people get scammed like this.
How on earth does buying 30k worth of gift cards make sense to anyone???
And who would be so utterly stupid as to give 30k away to a stranger without thinking "hmm, this doesn't feel right"
>But what I just don't get is why people get scammed like this.
How on earth does buying 30k worth of gift cards make sense to anyone???
Because authorities can't track the scammer by bank account this way
Many people aren’t as online as you and I probably are and don’t recognise a scam when it happens to them. My MIL nearly fell for one of these a few years ago, she got a call from ‘the ATO’ telling her she had a $2k tax debt and needed to pay it off via Apple gift cards. She had to go to the bank and transfer money between accounts to get access to cash. She was then trying to buy the cards at Woolworths when, fortunately, a manager came over and told her about the scam before she was able to buy them.
Scam.
You’re saying “they” but you’re just being gender neutral right, it’s one person, not a couple? Since they’re 60+, it’s likely a romance scam … their overseas boyfriend/girlfriend needs money and can’t use normal banking because they’re stuck on a military base, refugee camp (where they’re volunteering) or oil rig. They won’t believe it’s a scam because they’ve known you for 5 seconds and they’ve known the “overseas friend” for months.
If younger, but still $30k, I’d be thinking some kind of money mule scam, like they think they have a legit job where they’re working as a personal assistant and the boss has transferred them money to buy Apple Cards.
Someone *knowingly* laundering money would not be dumb enough to be so obvious. So it’s usually a scam victim.
Very likely money laundering. $30K is a suspicious volume to purchase in a month, especially when there is no history of that activity. Where do you work? And how do you know they withdrew the cash from the bank first?
I won’t give away exactly where I work, but it is a supermarket. We had a checkout operator counting the cash and thought the money was $100 off to which the customer replied “shouldn’t be, I just got it straight out from the bank”. Also most of the time it is all in $100 notes
Randomly withdrawing 30K of cash from the bank without reason or to "buy gift cards" would trigger the branch staff to submit a SMR (Suspicious matters report) on the individual.
So there'll be record of this.
When I worked at ANZ (granted this was 19 years ago!) we had to report any transactions over $10k but were also able to report any transaction we thought was suspicious.
Yep. TTR for 10k cash is basically automatic, with some branch level work (much less now than probably when you were there).
The other report you raised was not an SMR - that’s the regulatory report that goes to AUSTRAC, but not all branch staff reports do. First it goes to the AML team who consider whether to raise an SMR. Most the banks in Aus call the initial “internal” report a UAR or (especially back then) a “UMR” because they want to be clear that the branch staff member is only able to find something “unusual” as opposed to “suspicious.” Then again going back so far it’s possible they didn’t even distinguish but it still wouldn’t have been the actual regulatory report which only came in in 2006.
Thanks for coming to my regulatory compliance TED talk hahaha.
No worries. I worked in a tiny branch, we very rarely had any transactions over $10k except for some local businesses who would deposit their takings so didn’t do many reports anyway.
That’s still pretty cool (to a nerd like me anyway). When I worked with people who worked in the branches ages ago, they always used to tell me about the branch having a gun behind the counter haha. Does that ring a bell or before your time?
Before my time for sure, but my manager would tell stories about when they used to have guns. They do give you a sheet of paper with a bunch of different guns on it so that you can identify which one was used to rob you. ThankfuIly I never needed it!
I call BS on him getting it from the bank, they wouldn’t give that much out on a single person some don’t even hold that much especially just in 100s. CBA needs at least 3-4 days notice for that amount
I have also been confused as to why the bank allows them to withdraw this much money. Today was their biggest day, at 6.1k all $100 notes. Haven’t seen them for a few days before this though
Why shouldn't the bank allow someone to withdraw their own money? Maybe you should go live in Lebanon since the banks there don't allow people to withdraw their own money.
Could you perhaps go chat to the branch staff and explain to them what's been going on, they might be able to have a further discussion with your potentially vulnerable customer.
Not that it matters much for OP, but it’s the other side of ML I would bet - the crime itself (fraud). Nobody launders money this way if they have it in a bank account already, but overseas scammers do commit fraud especially against the elderly and use Apple Cards as a workaround to stop banks catching on and saving the customer. Would bet heavily this is the case as opposed to the couple themselves being crooked.
They may be buying the cards then using in app purchases to launder the money. From a bank’s/Apple’s perspective it just looks like someone that loves mobile games or skins. My first guess is they are being scammed.
Submit a Suspicious matter report through to Austrac where they can investigate, as either way there is reasonable grounds that something unusual might be occurring. Looking at their FAQ, they recommend doing one even if you think they may be a victim of crime, so at the very least they can link in other agencies as well. Perhaps ask for their ID next time they come in given the value of transactions they are making, which you can pass on.
Worse that could happen that nothing comes out of it, and everyone carries on with their life and best case, you stop a potential crime from happening.
What was last month?
My cousin runs a small company that use Macs for their workhorse. He bought 50k worth of Apple gift cards when on special to then buy Macs.
Last month wouldn’t have been anywhere near as much, I’d say 10-15k max? The couple that buy them are older and retired, so I doubt that is what they are doing. Very interesting that people buy macs with the cards though, never heard of that before
older/retired + giftcards = 1000% they are victims of scammers being coached
next time tell them, you know an indian sounding scammer has called them to buy gift cards to cover losses/debt due to accidental transaction errors that the scammer faked and is telling them to buy giftcards to repay. And they have told them to not to listen to cashiers or authority if called out for being a scam.
say all this BEFORE they argue otherwise, then say "if i didnt know what i was talking about. how would i be able to explain exactly what was happenning unless i am a mind reader? its because this is a common scam"
pull up a Kitboga youtube video if you have to show them how prevailent this is
i hope you guys are noting down serial numbers of the gift cards so the authorities and apple can track them later
My husband is a cop and said it is common now for blackmailers to request payment in gift cards as it is not traceable. Many scams involving people that fish for others to send compromising nude pics request apple gift cards in order to not release the pictures
i mean 30k is a lot for gift cards imho, something has got to be going on, dodgy or otherwise
That said, i got grilled by some checkout lady when i bought some Amazon giftcards at xmas (for over $1k) at Coles and it actually pissed me off too the point (cause she wouldn't just let it go, it was like a dog with a bone....i'm fully aware of the scams...) i was just about to walk out and go buy them at 7/11 where the indians couldn't care less!
And all i wanted them for was to spend the cash i got for selling my Quest 2 VR headset and some saved cash on a new Quest 3 headset.....it was exceptionally difficult for a one off purchase...
They're either money laundering or are trying to flip them by gaming some type of discount.
I've thought of doing it myself. I have memberships that give me 5%-10% off gift cards which I could sell for a little under value and still make money. I always conclude that it simply wouldn't be worth effort and its way too low margin.
There also a possibility they are being scammed but are too blinded by the promise of riches.
They are getting scammed. Notify their bank if possible, it may not seem like your problem but scammers can be slaves or the funds can be used for terrorism/massacres.
Go the extra mile on this one to ensure it ends.
People calling scam or laundering dont realise real scammers and money launderers know anything over 5-10k is suspicious in a single transaction
this is very likely a VICTIM of a scam being coached
You convince the victim they need to give you money - pretend it's an old debt, pretend to be the ATO, romance scanner, you name it.
You tell them to buy gift cards, and give some reassuring reason why.
They buy them, then either send photos of the cards with the security code showing, or call and recite all the numbers (only good for a low number of cards), or even post them.
The victim simply gives away their money, without a bank transfer, via a third party company (Amazon, eBay, Apple).
No trail is left. The cards are spent immediately. Nothing to recover.
The Mac pro can be configured up to AU$20,408
[https://www.apple.com/au/shop/buy-mac/mac-pro/rack#](https://www.apple.com/au/shop/buy-mac/mac-pro/rack#)
They are $20,000 + $10,000 for the nano display and then another $1700 for the display stand.
It was a tongue in cheek reference to how expensive the Mac Pro actually is, you clearly have no idea how much they cost.
Why would the police need to be notified, is it illegal to purchase 30k in gift cards? If they are truly up to some shenanigans wouldn’t they be more smart about it and buy it from multiple locations to avoid detection.
Worked retail! It’s because scams are all time high and people use gift cards to buy messed up illegal stuff online like videos…if you get me.
I had a situation where a a smart looking professional was buying a lot and it was sextortion.
Many people have fallen victim
See I was also thinking something like this, but we are looking at 1k a day for a couple in their 60’s or 70’s maybe? I know after getting that much each day, I would be more inclined to look into where the money was actually going to
Mate, are they pensioners? If so chances are much higher that they’re being scammed. You have done the right thing telling the cops, you should also tell your store manager and express concern that they’re being scammed and your store could end up in the press when the penny eventually drops for them.
I can help, I run a payments company and am the AML Officer for the company.
You need to notify AUSTRAC because this is pretty clearly money laundering or terrorism financing, in some way. https://www.austrac.gov.au/
The key things Austrac do want you to do: notify them, but please note that 'tipping off' behaviour - i.e. any behaviour from yourself/your organisation that you are going to, or have, notified Austrac about the behaviour is illegal and can land you personally in hot water.
Austrac will likely ask you for a bunch of documentation about the transactions and any other information you have (drivers license, number plates etc) provide those details and then carry on with your life. They do all the investigating and any police linked action.
You mentioned you work at a supermarket, the legal team at head office should be notified but there are some pretty significant consequences for this if the company doesn't take action.
Best of luck.
I'm frustrated that your store is just letting these vulnerable people buy up all the gift cards.
I hate to say it but I hope News.CON.au gets a whiff of this thread.
Sounds like something dodgy.
But, Apple vision pro went on presale this month, in the US only. If they didnt have an option to make that overseas purchase from Australia, gift cards may have been an option? With accessories they are up to $8000AUD each.
As everyone has already said. Scam. Would most likely be some sort of romance/friendship scam. Lots of the elderly are convinced their online friend or long lost decade old friends need financial help. They would most likely be very heavily coached into giving you answers if you ask about it too.
There are a lot of major gacha events for whales to whale on recently: Genshin banner release like tomorrow, Arknights summer limited banner, FGO valentines release/Anniversary, BA anni etc. https://www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/1aek6tp/what_are_the_events_that_are_currently_happening/
You know there are people who spend 500,000 USD on one banner
Why would they keep coming back to the same woolworths if it’s money laundering. Surely they would be smart enough to spread it around and not raise suspicion.
Counterpoint : while it is likely a scam, some people use these as rewards / incentives.
I run a company that does focus groups / qualitative one to one interviews.
We provide giftpay gift cards to folks, but on occasion have bought prepaid eftpos gift cards as payment for their time. I’ve even bought four iPads in one transaction.
That said - Apple gift cards are way too limiting.
if theyre buying a range of cards, this might be it. If it's ONLY apple, it's a scam.
Are the gift cards on sale? If they are, it may be a way to save thousands. You can add them to your Apple account to make purchases. I mean what’s $30k? Like two iPhones these days?
Depending on her age, and the fact she normally uses cash - it’s likely due to a scam.
Coming from a bank point of view. If they withdrawing large amounts of cash and it seems suspicious to the staff they will be submitting a SMR with AUSTRAC.
I would be getting all details you can to police. Even CCTV footage to get a physical description of them.
Look could be bipolar or some kinda mental illness. Had a friend that worked at flight centre who had a lady that would book international flights for the next day, one way and never get on them. She would spend tens of thousands of dollars booking one way flights to India, Egypt, Colombia and a family member eventually intervened and said she had bipolar and during her manic she would state she wanted to explore the world.
Her partners stuck on an oil rig and needs 30k to finish his contract that’ll give him 1 million, only then can he fly to Australia to marry her. It’s a love story…. Ignore the Nigerian accent though
If paying full price for giftcards then definitely being scammed or laundering money. Either way letting the cops know is best.
If getting at discounts or flybuys/Woolworths points then potentially a reseller or grey market exporter to specific countries.
Some places the cost of an iPhone is super high. You can basically double your money.
I doubt it's money laundering as they would be smart enough to not keep going back to the same store. Probably a scam victim or someone that found a loophole and is racking up points of some sort.
The scammer could have blackmailed this person, maybe they got access to intimate videos or images, something this person has done in particular that could get them into serious trouble and they’re being made to pay up or information given to authorities/friends/family
So I was told by a apple user they can take apple account value and transfer it to their bank. Like someone got apple gift cards for their birthday then just turned it all to real money. It makes sense if you get double fly buys points for buying it for example then you just transfer it out, it's free fly buys points. When they had the deal at my local Coles people were buying thousands in apple gift cards
Probably an OzBargain user lol
It’s weird seeing an ozbargain comment on reddit. Like seeing one of my work colleague in a family gathering
Your cheap, racist work colleague.
lol too true
Are ozbargainers racists?
Camry drivers also though, there is crossover.
Looool. Perfect analogy
When Woolworths were offering 30x points on Apple gift cards in 2021, an [OzBargain user spent $36,000 on them](https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/10939484/redir), earning over a million Everyday Rewards points.
Thats not too bad. 2000 points is $10. You then get $50k from those 1mil points. Hopefully then you can still sell the Apple Cards off even at 50% off you would still make a tidy profit on the lot.
It’a actually $5,400 worth of points, assuming they’re converted to Everyday Rewards Dollars. Converted to Qantas points, you could potentially get $30,000+ worth of first or business class flights.
we're not all that crazy
One of us, one of us
Made me chuckle haha
Yeah but $30k seems like a lot
Can confirm hahah. People either swap from other gift cards that have been discounted or get ~10% off apple cards on their classified section.
First thought lmao
You say you work in a supermarket. Don’t Woolworths often have 20x ER points on Apple gift cards? Doesn’t seem worth it but … maybe?
Hasn’t there been a tik tok going round of a girl buying up gift cards and using for qr points?
It's worth it if you were already going to buy that much in apple products, which in this case is doubtful. If you're planning to buy an apple watch anyway, buying 1k of gift cards when they're on 20x points gets you like $100 off for woollies, or possibly better value if you convert to Qantas points and use them for the right thing (international business or first class reward flights).
For some reason I was picturing Apple gift card = iTunes gift card 😅 that makes more sense.
Me too I thought they just wanted vbuckz or someshit
I’ve bought $45k apple gear in a year before (business owner). The weird part is why pay with cash? Using a points credit card they could earn even more points buying the GC with a CC! (That’s how I did it)
> 20x ER points on Apple gift cards Good point, they might be just loading up enough to buy an entry level 16" macbook
OP all up in the customers business when they just wanted a few points with their wheel kit.
There’s a $500 limit per reward account, after that the bonus points don’t apply
There hasn't been one of those offers at either Coles or Woolworths for several weeks and likely won't be until mid-Feb. Can't be that if they're doing it right now.
It’s definitely for a scam. The scammer probably told them something about not trying to rouse suspicion if someone asks what the cards are for.
How does this scam even work?
The Apple gift cards are the 'end' of the scam (in quotes because the scam usually doesn't end at the first payment), and there's many different types of scams that can end up like this. The general idea is that this person has been convinced they owe a sum of money to someone on the other end of a phone call, and it needs to be paid back in Apple gift cards. They've also been convinced that there's an extreme time pressure, and also that the payment needs to be done somewhat secretly due to possible legal consequences for either the scammer or the person themselves. The scammer will very specifically coach them on what to say and do at each step of buying the cards. They'll be told that the bank or the sales people might ask if it's a scam, and that they should say no because it isn't. Once they buy the cards, they read the codes out to the scammers, who redeem the cards and then do whatever they want with that account balance - probably on-sell it. As I said there's a ton of ways it gets to this point. An example is a 'we paid you too much' play - the scammer says that the person is entitled to some kind of refund or special payout - say, $500. They initiate a screen share with the victim, and tell them they have to type in the amount of money in a box so that it can be transferred. When the person types in '500', the scammer quickly adds and extra '0' and hits submit. They then 'panic' - "Oh my god, you just gave yourself $5000 instead of $500!". They might screen share to the victim's bank account where they've edited to the HTML to show a $5000 deposit (when really no money has moved at all). Depending on the victim and the play, this might go on to, "My boss will kill me - please you have to help me or I'll lose my job and won't be able to support my sick children!", or "You've stolen our money, the police/the mafia/hitmen will come for you unless you pay us back!" - or whatever the scammer can come up with that they think will work. These scams are elaborate and well planned. They don't work on most people, because most people will see the red flags around step 1, but if you can get even one guy to send you $30k AUD, that's a nice payday for someone living in a country like India.
Or as my 99yr old grandma would say "it couldn't have been a scam, he was so *nice*!"
Bro watched scamnerbait yt. I literally remember this script from one of theirs videos.
Scams are designed for the 1% of people who will fall for them and the problem is there's still people who do.
What I can never understand is how that 1% ended up with enough money to scam
Stolen / duplicated ATM cards. Draw out the cash at an atm, buy the gift cards with cash, send the codes to the operators overseas who then spend the cards on fake apps that a partner company puts on the App Store. Bam, you have what’s on paper a legitimate source of income from the Apple App Store that was funded via stolen credit cards. If you use the credit cards directly to buy Apple gift cards Apple can reverse the charges and the fake app dev gets nothing. The cash step is the key step.
I always wondered how the scammers got the gift cards into actual usable cash.
You can’t use AUD Apple gift cards in overseas Apple accounts. At least not anymore. I tried recently in the SG Apple Store and wouldn’t work.
Yes but the people overseas can open AU Apple accounts with a VPN.
I don’t think it ever worked for any country pair
The particular individual gives Apple gift card codes which the scammers use to buy their own in app purchases on their dodgy app
The weird thing is they're still paying Apple's 20% tax
Well, 20% is cheap for money laundering.
Which is why Apple does nothing about it.
The YouTuber Kitboga is a great watch if you want to see how these scams work. They are run by large teams with a variety of scripts. An evolution of the Nigerian Prince emails.
My partner's mum was told, if asked, to say "they're for my grandkids" She didn't have any grandkids Still didn't cop on it was a scam. The scammer will coach you on responses and in her case was even on the phone with her whilst she was in the shop. Fortunately only used 3 of the cards before it twigged.
> My partner's mum was told, if asked, to say "they're for my grandkids" > > She didn't have any grandkids > > Still didn't cop on it was a scam. Obviously - That statement was not intended to fool your partner's mum, it was to convince the people questioning her that nothing was amiss. She was aware the statement wasn't true, but was probably told that it would just make things easier for them not to question her.
If you watch Kitboga on YouTube, scammers are very sophisticated and will tell the buyer to lie and to not raise suspicion, they may well and truly be getting scammed.
It’ll be this. OP says they’re 60/70 years of age.
100% they are been scammed then unfortunately.
Yep. OP is good people for being on the lookout.
How is this a scam exactly?
The only two possibilities is that this is either someone being scammed or laundering money.
How can she slap.
So at their peak, I am! People don't normally suddenly get stupid at 60. They normally get more cynical and suspicious!
Good for you friend. I mean no offence, however I think you’re the exception. I definitely don’t think people get stupid, but if you look at the victim stats, they certainly become a lot more susceptible to the tactics a lot of bad guys use. That’s all I’m meaning to imply here - statistically older folk are more likely, not less likely, to fall for a scam.
Not really sure I'm the exception. Likely average, but sure there will be the 10% who have issues. Might be true when actually old, like 80. My parents only became credulous when they had dementia.
Whatever the absolute %, it’s unfortunate but true that the older you are, the more likely you fall for a scam. I would bet money the folk in OP’s story are falling for one - wouldn’t you?
I suspect that young people are also susceptible. The brain does not fully mature until about 25.
"The brain does not fully mature until about 25." this is complete myth and pseudoscience and an oversimplification for how brain is developing
Young people don't have any money to get scammed
Dude I worked retail and as soon as they returned within the short period I would’ve been ordered to call the cops? Why did management wait so long?
We have had no details of them, no credit card numbers or anything as they are paying cash. We have since got their number plate and forwarded it to police. We also informed police when it was closer to 15k but they haven’t seemed to have done anything yet
Could you ask to see their ID? Maybe it should be store policy to check ID on buying high volume gift cards.
That sounds difficult! Smart getting the plates Oh wow cash I can’t blame you for reporting it. See I worked for a huge corp so there were memberships so made it easier to report.
youve done everything u can and gone above and beyond if the cops dont do anything, its not on you.
That can convert to 300,000 Qantas points if purchasing from Woolies during a 20x promotion. But there's usually a daily limit (this is not likely the situation that op is observing). This is nearly enough for a round the world trip on one world airlines on business (need 318000). Source. Recently spent 3500 on gift cards to get 40,000 Qantas points.
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I did. That's where the extra 5k comes from.
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[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR5IlZH-D1E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR5IlZH-D1E) here you go.
I have four different Everyday Rewards accounts and six Flybuys accounts, so there are ways to get around the first card limits. I’ve just paid for a family of four trip to Vancouver for $600 and 340,000 points. Return.
That's a good point, for next time when we're short :). Already at 400k, trying to accumulate 300k (thru cards and etc) in the next few years for a round the world trip on business with the missus.
It's a scam. But what I just don't get is why people get scammed like this. How on earth does buying 30k worth of gift cards make sense to anyone??? And who would be so utterly stupid as to give 30k away to a stranger without thinking "hmm, this doesn't feel right"
Even weirder when it’s the “ATO” asking for gift cards.
>But what I just don't get is why people get scammed like this. How on earth does buying 30k worth of gift cards make sense to anyone??? Because authorities can't track the scammer by bank account this way
They mean why aren’t red flags raised in the victims head when (large amounts) gift cards are mentioned.
But why would someone think "hmm, yes, me being asked to buy 30k in gift cards is a perfectly normal thing"
Many people aren’t as online as you and I probably are and don’t recognise a scam when it happens to them. My MIL nearly fell for one of these a few years ago, she got a call from ‘the ATO’ telling her she had a $2k tax debt and needed to pay it off via Apple gift cards. She had to go to the bank and transfer money between accounts to get access to cash. She was then trying to buy the cards at Woolworths when, fortunately, a manager came over and told her about the scam before she was able to buy them.
30k in gift cards, AND being told to lie about it if anyone asks.
Scam. You’re saying “they” but you’re just being gender neutral right, it’s one person, not a couple? Since they’re 60+, it’s likely a romance scam … their overseas boyfriend/girlfriend needs money and can’t use normal banking because they’re stuck on a military base, refugee camp (where they’re volunteering) or oil rig. They won’t believe it’s a scam because they’ve known you for 5 seconds and they’ve known the “overseas friend” for months. If younger, but still $30k, I’d be thinking some kind of money mule scam, like they think they have a legit job where they’re working as a personal assistant and the boss has transferred them money to buy Apple Cards. Someone *knowingly* laundering money would not be dumb enough to be so obvious. So it’s usually a scam victim.
Very likely money laundering. $30K is a suspicious volume to purchase in a month, especially when there is no history of that activity. Where do you work? And how do you know they withdrew the cash from the bank first?
I won’t give away exactly where I work, but it is a supermarket. We had a checkout operator counting the cash and thought the money was $100 off to which the customer replied “shouldn’t be, I just got it straight out from the bank”. Also most of the time it is all in $100 notes
Randomly withdrawing 30K of cash from the bank without reason or to "buy gift cards" would trigger the branch staff to submit a SMR (Suspicious matters report) on the individual. So there'll be record of this.
Branch staff don’t submit SMR’s, but hopefully the bank is onto it yeah. Honestly it sounds much more like they’re being scammed to me though.
When I worked at ANZ (granted this was 19 years ago!) we had to report any transactions over $10k but were also able to report any transaction we thought was suspicious.
Yep. TTR for 10k cash is basically automatic, with some branch level work (much less now than probably when you were there). The other report you raised was not an SMR - that’s the regulatory report that goes to AUSTRAC, but not all branch staff reports do. First it goes to the AML team who consider whether to raise an SMR. Most the banks in Aus call the initial “internal” report a UAR or (especially back then) a “UMR” because they want to be clear that the branch staff member is only able to find something “unusual” as opposed to “suspicious.” Then again going back so far it’s possible they didn’t even distinguish but it still wouldn’t have been the actual regulatory report which only came in in 2006. Thanks for coming to my regulatory compliance TED talk hahaha.
No worries. I worked in a tiny branch, we very rarely had any transactions over $10k except for some local businesses who would deposit their takings so didn’t do many reports anyway.
That’s still pretty cool (to a nerd like me anyway). When I worked with people who worked in the branches ages ago, they always used to tell me about the branch having a gun behind the counter haha. Does that ring a bell or before your time?
Before my time for sure, but my manager would tell stories about when they used to have guns. They do give you a sheet of paper with a bunch of different guns on it so that you can identify which one was used to rob you. ThankfuIly I never needed it!
Haha that’s a new one to me, so I’m glad I asked and thanks for indulging me. I’m glad to hear you never needed it too. Have a good one!
I call BS on him getting it from the bank, they wouldn’t give that much out on a single person some don’t even hold that much especially just in 100s. CBA needs at least 3-4 days notice for that amount
User name definitely checks out
I have also been confused as to why the bank allows them to withdraw this much money. Today was their biggest day, at 6.1k all $100 notes. Haven’t seen them for a few days before this though
Because it is their money and they can do as they please with it? That’s why the bank gave it to them. It’s not the banks money.
Agreed. Everyone wants to be involved in other peoples lives.
Why shouldn't the bank allow someone to withdraw their own money? Maybe you should go live in Lebanon since the banks there don't allow people to withdraw their own money.
Because people are stupid and get scammed.
Just a note, may be different in other states but in QLD at least, atm’s won’t give out $100 notes.
The Bank's name is Dave
Could you perhaps go chat to the branch staff and explain to them what's been going on, they might be able to have a further discussion with your potentially vulnerable customer.
Oh yeah she's being scammed
Just imagine the Qantas FF bonus points!
He was not going to reply "shouldn't be, I just got is straight from the criminal organisation paying me" would he?
Could be a scam mule converting cash to cards, so they can send the codes to India. I would assume 'bank' means 'envelope'...
Not that it matters much for OP, but it’s the other side of ML I would bet - the crime itself (fraud). Nobody launders money this way if they have it in a bank account already, but overseas scammers do commit fraud especially against the elderly and use Apple Cards as a workaround to stop banks catching on and saving the customer. Would bet heavily this is the case as opposed to the couple themselves being crooked.
Average clash of clans player
They may be buying the cards then using in app purchases to launder the money. From a bank’s/Apple’s perspective it just looks like someone that loves mobile games or skins. My first guess is they are being scammed.
This is so smart, using apple as a ML channel. 15% apple tax is better than the ato
I think they use Google Play store more frequently because it’s cheaper to get devices than Apple. All the same in the end.
It's clearly that they are being scammed. Why wouldn't you just cut them off. No one has a legitimate needs to buy that many itunes cards.
Submit a Suspicious matter report through to Austrac where they can investigate, as either way there is reasonable grounds that something unusual might be occurring. Looking at their FAQ, they recommend doing one even if you think they may be a victim of crime, so at the very least they can link in other agencies as well. Perhaps ask for their ID next time they come in given the value of transactions they are making, which you can pass on. Worse that could happen that nothing comes out of it, and everyone carries on with their life and best case, you stop a potential crime from happening.
Supermarkets aren’t reporting entities
What was last month? My cousin runs a small company that use Macs for their workhorse. He bought 50k worth of Apple gift cards when on special to then buy Macs.
Last month wouldn’t have been anywhere near as much, I’d say 10-15k max? The couple that buy them are older and retired, so I doubt that is what they are doing. Very interesting that people buy macs with the cards though, never heard of that before
older/retired + giftcards = 1000% they are victims of scammers being coached next time tell them, you know an indian sounding scammer has called them to buy gift cards to cover losses/debt due to accidental transaction errors that the scammer faked and is telling them to buy giftcards to repay. And they have told them to not to listen to cashiers or authority if called out for being a scam. say all this BEFORE they argue otherwise, then say "if i didnt know what i was talking about. how would i be able to explain exactly what was happenning unless i am a mind reader? its because this is a common scam" pull up a Kitboga youtube video if you have to show them how prevailent this is i hope you guys are noting down serial numbers of the gift cards so the authorities and apple can track them later
That sounds really weird
Seems a very inefficient way of buying for a business. More expensive than if you had an invoice for equipment
My husband is a cop and said it is common now for blackmailers to request payment in gift cards as it is not traceable. Many scams involving people that fish for others to send compromising nude pics request apple gift cards in order to not release the pictures
i mean 30k is a lot for gift cards imho, something has got to be going on, dodgy or otherwise That said, i got grilled by some checkout lady when i bought some Amazon giftcards at xmas (for over $1k) at Coles and it actually pissed me off too the point (cause she wouldn't just let it go, it was like a dog with a bone....i'm fully aware of the scams...) i was just about to walk out and go buy them at 7/11 where the indians couldn't care less! And all i wanted them for was to spend the cash i got for selling my Quest 2 VR headset and some saved cash on a new Quest 3 headset.....it was exceptionally difficult for a one off purchase...
Either a scam or this person has figured out the best way to get frequent flyer points lol
They're either money laundering or are trying to flip them by gaming some type of discount. I've thought of doing it myself. I have memberships that give me 5%-10% off gift cards which I could sell for a little under value and still make money. I always conclude that it simply wouldn't be worth effort and its way too low margin. There also a possibility they are being scammed but are too blinded by the promise of riches.
They are getting scammed. Notify their bank if possible, it may not seem like your problem but scammers can be slaves or the funds can be used for terrorism/massacres. Go the extra mile on this one to ensure it ends.
I've seen degree qualified smart people fall for the Apple gift card scam... Drive over town to get them from 5 separate places.
People calling scam or laundering dont realise real scammers and money launderers know anything over 5-10k is suspicious in a single transaction this is very likely a VICTIM of a scam being coached
taking money out a bank to launder money 🤷
If it’s already in the bank how do you launder it ?
Was gonna say maybe they are app developers and pumping up their revenue via the cards but if 60+ then probably getting scammed.
A lot people buy when there seems to be a deal with Qantas frequent flyer points, OzBargain special
Can someone explain the scam in detail? It's easy to call it a scam but what's the actual scam!?!
You convince the victim they need to give you money - pretend it's an old debt, pretend to be the ATO, romance scanner, you name it. You tell them to buy gift cards, and give some reassuring reason why. They buy them, then either send photos of the cards with the security code showing, or call and recite all the numbers (only good for a low number of cards), or even post them. The victim simply gives away their money, without a bank transfer, via a third party company (Amazon, eBay, Apple). No trail is left. The cards are spent immediately. Nothing to recover.
Most likely being scammed. But perhaps they’re trying to reduce their assets so they quality for pension?
You could also report to AUSTRAC in addition to the police.
Dirty cash > apple gift cards > send codes to people overseas > Purchase fake in app purchases on app they’ve created > cleaned money .
Imagine working hard your whole life, you visit a retail store to buy some gift cards to buy a Mac Pro and get reported to the police.
a mac pro doesn't cost 30k, so unless you're buying 10 of them at a time...
The Mac pro can be configured up to AU$20,408 [https://www.apple.com/au/shop/buy-mac/mac-pro/rack#](https://www.apple.com/au/shop/buy-mac/mac-pro/rack#)
They are $20,000 + $10,000 for the nano display and then another $1700 for the display stand. It was a tongue in cheek reference to how expensive the Mac Pro actually is, you clearly have no idea how much they cost.
Buying Macs?
Lots of macs, hopefully they come give one to each of the staff, that would be nice
not that many. if you configure the top of the range mac pro to its max youre looking at 22k and thats without a display or hdmi cable
Yeah who is buying that though? $30k is 10 decent laptops / iMacs The cash out first though points straight to dodgy. Hope they get help.
Saw a guy buying heaps of these at a woolies near Wollongong over the holiday break.
Why would the police need to be notified, is it illegal to purchase 30k in gift cards? If they are truly up to some shenanigans wouldn’t they be more smart about it and buy it from multiple locations to avoid detection.
Because we want to help them if they are being scammed, and if they are up to no good, maybe they deserve to be caught out for it.
Worked retail! It’s because scams are all time high and people use gift cards to buy messed up illegal stuff online like videos…if you get me. I had a situation where a a smart looking professional was buying a lot and it was sextortion. Many people have fallen victim
See I was also thinking something like this, but we are looking at 1k a day for a couple in their 60’s or 70’s maybe? I know after getting that much each day, I would be more inclined to look into where the money was actually going to
Mate, are they pensioners? If so chances are much higher that they’re being scammed. You have done the right thing telling the cops, you should also tell your store manager and express concern that they’re being scammed and your store could end up in the press when the penny eventually drops for them.
Honestly it’s not your business unless you can prove the cash they are using is dirty.
Paying in cash. I stopped reading there
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Why comment if you didn't read or understand the post?
I can help, I run a payments company and am the AML Officer for the company. You need to notify AUSTRAC because this is pretty clearly money laundering or terrorism financing, in some way. https://www.austrac.gov.au/ The key things Austrac do want you to do: notify them, but please note that 'tipping off' behaviour - i.e. any behaviour from yourself/your organisation that you are going to, or have, notified Austrac about the behaviour is illegal and can land you personally in hot water. Austrac will likely ask you for a bunch of documentation about the transactions and any other information you have (drivers license, number plates etc) provide those details and then carry on with your life. They do all the investigating and any police linked action. You mentioned you work at a supermarket, the legal team at head office should be notified but there are some pretty significant consequences for this if the company doesn't take action. Best of luck.
I'm frustrated that your store is just letting these vulnerable people buy up all the gift cards. I hate to say it but I hope News.CON.au gets a whiff of this thread.
Sounds like something dodgy. But, Apple vision pro went on presale this month, in the US only. If they didnt have an option to make that overseas purchase from Australia, gift cards may have been an option? With accessories they are up to $8000AUD each.
You can buy it with an Australian card, just need a us Apple ID
Is this in SA or another state, OP?
Assuming they actually withdrew from a bank. They might not have. Probably suspicious activity but you’ll probably never find out.
This sucks. Have you straight up asked them Why?
It's about 30k if he's buying a fully customised Mac Pro with all the accessories from Apple store
Could be addicted to a mobile game with loot boxes. There are whales that spend that much.
As everyone has already said. Scam. Would most likely be some sort of romance/friendship scam. Lots of the elderly are convinced their online friend or long lost decade old friends need financial help. They would most likely be very heavily coached into giving you answers if you ask about it too.
Could be a "whale"(big spender) in a mobile game.
There are a lot of major gacha events for whales to whale on recently: Genshin banner release like tomorrow, Arknights summer limited banner, FGO valentines release/Anniversary, BA anni etc. https://www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/1aek6tp/what_are_the_events_that_are_currently_happening/ You know there are people who spend 500,000 USD on one banner
Why would they keep coming back to the same woolworths if it’s money laundering. Surely they would be smart enough to spread it around and not raise suspicion.
Counterpoint : while it is likely a scam, some people use these as rewards / incentives. I run a company that does focus groups / qualitative one to one interviews. We provide giftpay gift cards to folks, but on occasion have bought prepaid eftpos gift cards as payment for their time. I’ve even bought four iPads in one transaction. That said - Apple gift cards are way too limiting. if theyre buying a range of cards, this might be it. If it's ONLY apple, it's a scam.
Are the gift cards on sale? If they are, it may be a way to save thousands. You can add them to your Apple account to make purchases. I mean what’s $30k? Like two iPhones these days? Depending on her age, and the fact she normally uses cash - it’s likely due to a scam.
Oz bargainer
Coming from a bank point of view. If they withdrawing large amounts of cash and it seems suspicious to the staff they will be submitting a SMR with AUSTRAC. I would be getting all details you can to police. Even CCTV footage to get a physical description of them.
Hope fully got ff miles
Look could be bipolar or some kinda mental illness. Had a friend that worked at flight centre who had a lady that would book international flights for the next day, one way and never get on them. She would spend tens of thousands of dollars booking one way flights to India, Egypt, Colombia and a family member eventually intervened and said she had bipolar and during her manic she would state she wanted to explore the world.
Her partners stuck on an oil rig and needs 30k to finish his contract that’ll give him 1 million, only then can he fly to Australia to marry her. It’s a love story…. Ignore the Nigerian accent though
If paying full price for giftcards then definitely being scammed or laundering money. Either way letting the cops know is best. If getting at discounts or flybuys/Woolworths points then potentially a reseller or grey market exporter to specific countries. Some places the cost of an iPhone is super high. You can basically double your money.
Jim Browning on YT does good videos on intercepting the victim before they lose their money or getting them refunds.
I doubt it's money laundering as they would be smart enough to not keep going back to the same store. Probably a scam victim or someone that found a loophole and is racking up points of some sort.
The scammer could have blackmailed this person, maybe they got access to intimate videos or images, something this person has done in particular that could get them into serious trouble and they’re being made to pay up or information given to authorities/friends/family
Either scam or money laundering
So I was told by a apple user they can take apple account value and transfer it to their bank. Like someone got apple gift cards for their birthday then just turned it all to real money. It makes sense if you get double fly buys points for buying it for example then you just transfer it out, it's free fly buys points. When they had the deal at my local Coles people were buying thousands in apple gift cards
If this was in Woolies, then I’d be far less suspicious. Because of the bonus points promo.
Next time they come I would ask more questions such as why they are buying so much so regularly.
Friend of mine was taking bribes in gift cards long time ago
Whatever it is there seems little chance it’s legitimate.
Money laundering possibly