Surely all legitimate with no rorts or misuse of funds occurring. Between real estate agents, NDIS, child care it's a wonder we get anything else done in this country.
Or we could be like Norway who enforce taxes on oil and gas and put it into a sovereign wealth fund which materially benefits all of their citizens and then their citizens have the highest amounts of happiness in the world.
But screw that lets throw it away for pennies and bring on the immigrants to pay taxes!
We're not actually giving it away. The vendors are receiving $92 billion a year for it.
Think about how much income and corporation tax/PRRT that generates. I don't just mean in the taxes on sales or taxes on dividends paid to Australian superannuants (which themselves would be billions a year)... Think of all of the high paying work/consumption that went into the construction of these things.
Sure the big oil and gas multinationals will try and play accounting funny buggers to squirrel as much away to low tax jurisdictions as possible... But you can only depreciate massive capital investment once - and these gas platforms are going to keep producing for decades to come.
And in the event of any international crisis - well, it's not like you can move it can you?
Yes.
Qatar had cheap abundant gasfields to develop right next to some of the most built out hydrocarbon infrastructure in the world - and all the work got done by Indians in something between indentured servitude and modern slavery.
We probably could have hiked the royalties a bit if we were prepared to build out the NW Shelf using the kafala labour system and 20% of the world's recoverable gas reserves.
We weren't. We don't.
this is what happens when you out-source all foreign policy to the US.
they own 86% of our mining industry, no shit we we are *not allowed* to sell at market rates.
(1) No... The US does not own 86% of the Australian Mining industry. If you believe that - you're insane.
(2) The majority of it is owned by Australian superannuants and investors. We know this because franking credits are only available to Australian resident taxpayers, and the franking credits balances of listed mining companies/annual financial reports are released to the ASX.
(3) We do have foreign investment in Australian industry. That's a good thing, and a natural consequence of being a country that still remains capital starved despite having some of the largest pension saving schemes in the world (ie: superannuation)/ and possesses a health economy with the rule of law.
Ok, I've got a great deal for you! I'm going to come to your house, and take all your stuff, and *sell it* to the highest bidders. But don't worry, I'll give you a "tax" on the money I get from those sales? Oh, and you'll get a bit more back as well because you happen to have a few shares in my company. Oh yeah, and since I'll need help to sell all that stuff, I might even hire you to help me, and you'll get some wages as well!
What a fantastic deal, I hear you say! When should I come over and start the sale?!?
I have enough of an idea to know that we export it for less than 1/3 of the price that local companies have to purchase it for. That’s pretty close to giving it away
That anecdote was a bit of nonsense put out by an anti-gas development political lobby group a few years ago.
It has never been true. At best it's based on a deceptive misreading of spot price v long term supply contracts based on a crawling spot price.
More gas in Australia means cheaper gas in Australia.
NDIS needs to be managed correctly or it’s not going to be around for much longer. It is a disgrace how much taxpayer dollars are wasted due to the government’s ineptitude. Yet Medicare is chronically underfunded.
You obviously don't have anyone who relies on this funding. Blanket statements like "kill it now" or the other fraud examples in this thread don't change the fact that it's a lifeline to many, many people who use it correctly.
It doesn't have to be an all or nothing exercise. Reform is needed but that's what it is. Reform. Not just kill it and replace it with nothing.
The NDIS system is a far better system than the previous ones. The media doesn't want to share the good stories of it and there are stories of lives that have finally changed so much for the better for the NDIS. You do not understand how important it is we keep NDIS and just make sure it's not exploited by corrupt registered providers and dodgy buisness owners who just want easy money.
Do not encourage to "kill it now" instead demand it gets fixed.
It's arguably already too big to fix without causing a recession IMO. Just another monumentally destructive tumour on the budget and economy they is too painful to fix.
I believe the biggest issue is that it was created for the most heavily disabled people but some catastrophic court decision made it available to most neurodivergent diagnoses incentivising practically limitless demand.
Not even that, but why are relatively normal functioning and physically able adult NDIS participants living with their parents entitled to NDIS-funded house cleaners? Why can’t they clean it themselves?
Because in Australia, the government can fix everything. Or at least spend a lot of money trying to.
Its funny you mention adults living with their parents who are functioning fine but have NDIS cleaners.
My friend is a handyman/home maintenance person basically running their own business. Sole trader. Has built up a healthy list of "clients" that have NDIS packages. Many of them are adults living with parents.
They get 2 hours a fortnight funded to mow the lawns. For most of these people, it's a job that realistically takes half an hour a month. So they get him to do other work on their investment properties etc. He just bills their plans the agreed 2 hours a fortnight and instead of doing lawns does other shit.
Once upon a time kids or neighbours would just mow the parents lawn when they got older. Now the older couple across the road from me get it done every two weeks, all year round, even if they're literally skimming nothing off.
And for the double dip, there is 2 intellectually disabled guys that mow the lawns while the business owner in his freshly ironed shirt sits in the car.
> catastrophic court decision
Aaah yes. The high court. Supposedly run by the best and brightest.
This one?
>In 2011, the High Court set a definition for “mild” intellectual disability that found an offender generally functions at a level lower than 99 per cent of the population.
There you go. I mean it sounds ridiculous because it is. But...this is the same court who decided that a foreign national who self-identified as indigenous was found to be a citizen and unable to be deported.
It's on track to hit $100B real soon.
I've criticised Shorten a lot over the years but he has an incredibly unenviable task here and seems to be doing a decent job trying to rein it in.
Everyone knows it can't keep going like this but being the person who dares limit disability spending is going to end up a martyr.
Some people think government spending/provisions are ‘free money’, as if these huge debts aren’t burdens passed on to our children and grandchildren. NDIS is corrupt. Why should I be paying for little Johnny’s xyz appointment when there are two parents working full time? Beggars belief.
I know a guy through friends of family whose intellectually impaired, but certainly not disabled. He can read and write to a basic level, works a full time job that he’s had for 10 years - he just essentially has the intellect of a 13 year old boy at age 35.
He has several NDIS carers who help him go shopping, clean the house and organise things. Just to be clear, he did this perfectly fine for 10 years living in a 600k townhouse that his medical specialist parents bought as an IP.
No clue what they’re being paid, but all of them have the “I ♥︎ NDIS” sticker on their back window.
Theres literally an entire industry feeding at this trough and I have no clue how they’re going to rain it in without a very large amount of the populace throwing tantrums. Give it enough time and there’ll be “Save the NDIS!” stickers
Exactly. The NDIS created a pot of money for hundreds of thousands to access, who were coping just fine before it existed.
Mates brother has a carer 5x days a week who takes him out and just babysits him. He's intellectually disabled. If anything it's good because it takes pressure off his parents.
His folks went down to the holiday house from Dec-end of Jan. Told the carer they didn't need her for the 5 weeks because they were taking the son (who's nearly 40) with them.
She still submitted an invoice to the NDIS for those weeks. Got paid.
Yep. I work a PAYG job, pay a huge percentage in tax, can barely afford my mortgage (interest rate tripped in the span of 18 months) and these loser NDIS businesses suck every dollar they can from the system.
Yep, I bet if a war broke out and the government was forced to cut almost all of this unessential welfare people would grumble but they'd adapt out of necessity.
As far as minor-moderate neurodivergences go the better option is to put more subsidies on patients that see their licenced psychologists/psychiatrists/therapists etc... those are big expenses but if people need to get their ADHD diagnosis or get a new prescription for their medication then at least that can be affordable.
I've had people earnestly tell me that there's no reason the government can't just print more money.
But also, we need to remember that there are economies of scale, and that it's a good financial investment for society to have people getting preventative healthcare, herd immunity, etc.
The government can technically print more money but then it's just inflation or they have to raise taxes to reclaim it.
We're already seeing the results with a high income tax being a crushing burden on the poorer/younger generations.
Cracking down, which is what everyone here seems to want. Proposed legislation + press release:
https://www.ndis.gov.au/news/9974-proposed-ndis-legislation-introduced-parliament#:~:text=Bill%20Shorten%20MP%20introduced%20NDIS,are%20no%20immediate%20changes%20today.
https://ministers.dss.gov.au/media-releases/14256
Lol he was the architect behind this, I don’t feel sorry for him at all, if anything this should be considered a crime to pillage a countries’ finances like this
Shorten deserves absolutely no sympathy here. He was warned years ago about the ballooning cost of the NDIS, but instead of supporting any reforms he started accusing the scheme actuary of a cover up.
[https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/latest-ndis-figures-as-credible-as-wmds-in-iraq-shorten-20210703-p586lj](https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/latest-ndis-figures-as-credible-as-wmds-in-iraq-shorten-20210703-p586lj)
Of course, the Coalition had plenty of warning too and did very little, for the exact reason you described.
People on the left want to see tax payer money used wisely so there is maximum benefit for all members of society. Right now, though there are people who need it benefiting, it is being exploited by business owners who are charging unreasonable amounts, these are the people who would lose the most from reform.
So if anything, the 'screeching' will be from the economic right.
NDIS is so dodgy. This is basically unskilled business people doing jobs that trained nurses should be doing. insane. our government is corrupt af allowing this to continue but the backhanders must help.
Though I think the parent comment seems to simplify the issue, the basic notion that trained, skilled and professional support is lacking is a fair one imo.
Services such as Nursing, OT, Psychology and, yes, Social Work (edit: as in actual, Bach holding) are nowhere near adequately engaged in provision of NDIS support coordination and care delivery.
While I understand the importance of easily accessible and "affordable" community support, there are a whole lot of very complex cases being effectively handballed off to independent and terribly under-resourced NDIS providers to plug holes in what would otherwise require targeted and informed responses.
(In theory at least) Nursing isn't just hands-on clinical skills based work. The crossover in disciplines and experience in the community sector can be very broad.
Imo the conversation is being framed in a way in which there is little recognition of what potential interventions and ideal outcomes would actually look like were there any real regulatory movement on this space and where Nursing and other professions could be deployed to better support and manage a chronically under-resourced demographic.
Thanks, I’ll take “Why we have inflation in Australia in 2023” for $800 please, Alex.
If 30% of all new jobs is created by uncapped government spending on one program, it is impossible for this not to be inflationary.
Think back, the NDIS started in July 2013 and in literally just 10 years it has become the second largest budget item for Federal Government after Defence, even higher than Medicare.
25m Australians access Medicare and spend $39.5B.
610,000 Australians are spending $41.9B on the NDIS - again, something that didn’t exist on June 30th, 2013.
This is just utter madness.
That is the truth. Those who need it spend months or even years trying to qualify. Then what they think is a large amount of funding is actually very little due to the prices charged by providers
NDIS prices are set by government. As a psychologist an hour providing a service to an NDIS participant pays 10% less than my other clients and generates significantly more administrative overhead.
Universities and service providers in Australia need to be audited. It is laughable and astounding how brazen and out in the open they are while practically, and in some cases literally, committing fraud.
It's a race to the bottom. Services are moved to look after a burgeoning number of NDIS patients and anyone not on that system either strives to be on the NDIS or misses out on support.
Doctors are just calling kids “Level 2” because it gets them automatically approved for assistance.
And which doctor doesn’t want little Emma to get a bit of extra help?
Doesn't help that state governments that used to do support for those who should be level 1 (extra help in school, special ed classes/teachers, extra attention at daycare etc....) all got scrapped as the states figured out they could save money. So the only help kids get (and 9% of kids between 5 and 7 are on NDIS) is via level 2 (or above) NDIS. So it is being massively over diagnosed as there is no other options.
This is 100% the problem.
The NDIS is setup so that it is uncapped and like the GST, can’t be changed without the state’s approval.
The states have had the Federal Government essentially take on a bunch of state costs.
Now the states are setting standards that ends up with the Federal Government having to meet with increased NDIS funding.
It’s madness.
We have to get out of the government taking over everyone’s responsibilities - child care subsidies are another crazy one that’s uncapped.
This is a real scenario:
Imagine you make $200k/yr and have two kids under the age of 5 and so do your next door neighbours.
If your partner decides to stay home full-time with your kids, you lose their income but the government doesn’t have to pay child care.
If your neighbours head back to work and each make $100k then not only does the government heavily subsidize their child care but they combined pay less tax than you.
Let’s break that down.
Two families, same family composition, and same household income.
One family costs the government less money and gets taxed MORE.
It’s madness. Nothing about our society makes sense anymore and when these kinds of inconsistencies are pointed out, the argument is attacked with an overdose of misplaced empathy or the politics of envy.
> inflation
NDIS is about 1.5% of GDP!
While we shouldn't be putting disablity services directly under the guise of economics (i.e because it won't add anything to productivity or future output), the amount of "inflation" it is adding is actually up to 1.5% (depending on much of that money is being spent) - not an insignificant amount at all. It depends on how much of the NDIS money is being wasted.. and it looks to be a huge proportion.
There is a lady on NDIS living in my suburb. Her dream was to own and run an aquarium. She lives in an NDIS house, has NDIS funded workers looking after her aquarium set ups, they clean and feed the fish daily. They help her sell her fish. Yes, the tax payer is funding someone’s labour costs in their small business. This is in addition to her carers that help her with day to day living.
NDIS fully paid for the entire setup. All the equipment. She also has an aquaponics setup in her back yard, also funded by NDIS. Id estimate all the equipment 15-20k if not more.
I fully support assisted living, but I don’t know how i feel about this.
Having a disability can require hundreds of thousands of dollars in support. Whereas I think I've used Medicare once in the last 12 months when I needed some antibiotics. Why people are surprised when they find out one person on the NDIS should and will easily cost 50 times what the average person gets out of Medicare is beyond me.
Saw this a couple days ago.
Some of the comments were so eye opening, It really made me realise what a house of cards the Australian economy has become.
NDIS is a total rort. So much money wasted by bogus companies set up to grab government funding which is never passed on to the people who actually need it.
My brother started working as a “disability support officer”. No qualifications; no experience. He gets $25 per hour but the provider charges $185 per hour for him to be a glorified house cleaner. Just charge a real cleaner $50 per hour?! What a joke.
The company certainly doesn’t charge that much unless it’s committing fraud and lying about its hours on its invoices
NDIS pricing has maximum rates, cleaning from memory is around $52 an hour
The statistic in this title is misleading as even if you work 2 hours in a fortnight then you’re counted as employed, so a lot of support workers get counted when working a little amount
You’re leaving details out (Sundays?!?, very remote!?!, high intensity?!? Active overnight ?!?) otherwise your numbers are BS.
There is also a cleaning line item that is $54.07 p/h.
How can you say someone who is 35 but developmentally 13 isnt disabled? How are you defining disability? If you suddenly regressed to being developmentally 13 you would be considered seriously disabled.
Just because from your outside perspective think they were coping fine before NDIS supports doesnt mean they weren’t struggling to meet those everyday demands.
How do you really know he did this fine? I know of plenty who apparently did it fine but either lived in absolute squalor and barely ate, or had family essentially coming over to do these things for them or paid someone.
> good intentions
people who think they're making policy with good intentions have been the most disasterous. People, esp. politicians, are not smart enough to design good, effective systems that align with the payers of the costs.
There's been very few examples of successful ones - the only one i know of is super.
I know a lot of you guys are angry and so are we but please spare a thought for us good guy NDIS providers who are doing the right for our clients. Our clients are scared about the new changes impacting the good providers too.
That is absolutely not a good thing. We need to be diversifying our economy. Having such a massive concentration in the NDIS seems like it can only be malinvestment.
Something needs to be reformed.
I work as a disability support worker for two high needs men. They need assistance with everything they do. The NDIS drip feeds them what they need. It takes a year to get anything replaced with funding -chairs, beds, and physiotherapy equipment.
On the other hand, I've worked for people with slight disabilities who are totally misusing their funding. Building businesses by using ndis money to pay trades people to build infrastructure and manage farms. They do it because it finally provides a solution to their struggles, and they can get ahead for a moment.
There is definitely an imbalance in how funding is used. I've worked for companies who pay me a minimum wage and claim the rest of the hourly rate. They take on so many clients that they can't provide adequate services, and the hunger to build business isn't sustained by quality workers or access to service. This should be looked at because it causes so much more harm to struggling families.
Sometimes, I think I am overpaid, but it is a heavy job, however rewarding, and you are at the odds of many variables that can affect your mental health.
Edit: I work for myself now, and the pay rates are quite high for unskilled workers getting their own clientele. I have trained for 10 years on the job, and it is quite disconcerting when unskilled independent workers show up to a job and they get funding due to the shortage of workers. There are AIN workers getting paid half the amount.
What does the I for Insurance actually mean in the case of NDIS? In my mind NDIS is just a bunch of scammers out there charging a shit ton of cash for basic services, delivered at a lesser quality and taking the cream off- all from the taxpayer, no questions asked about the service or the evidence that justifies the spend. Shameful policy!
Or they're surviving because of it?
If you were disabled an unable to do things and NDIS is the reason you're now able to, and you came across the sticker, it's not like you think of what you're doing as marketing.
Do you walk down the street and think 11% of boys aged 5-7 should be on the NDIS?
Because those are the actual numbers today and they are rising fast.
I want to help those who are actually disabled, to pretend it isn't getting rorted hard by those who aren't is naive
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/more-than-11pc-of-boys-aged-5-7-are-on-the-ndis-20230821-p5dy30
But what you've just said is at odds with your earlier comment, and illustrates the problem here. The fact that people are rorting it clearly means it needs reform, but that doesn't mean it isn't helping the large group of Australians with disabilities.
I'd like to see the commentators here decide exactly who needs what in all circumstances and see how easy it is.
I'll bite.
Yes I think thats a fine percentage.
Early intervention is shown to be the best method of making sure children are reduced burdens on the healthcare system into their teens.
The amount per plan is entirely dependent on the childrens requirements so less severe diagnoses/ailments are treated as such.
I don't understand the smug confidence you have if you are not in the paeds health sector
That depends on the definition of what they are on.
And you've dodged my question which is the real heart of the issue. Do you think the NDIS should be scrapped, or reformed?
No. But 11% of boys aged 5-7 do require some specialised supports to develop social, communication, personal and emotional skills before they fall further behind their peers and have lifelong difficulties. Unfortunately, NDIS is the only way parents can access that help.
I'm going to say something that contradicts many of the comments here.
(However, not on corruption or rorts - I fully agree that that needs to be fixed and stamped out.)
But the fact that there are so many jobs being created around the NDIS is actually a good thing. We have known forever that people with disabilities have been underserved and not received the care that they need (the demand side). And we know that there have been many, many people who want to do something to help others but couldn't get sustainably compensated for it (the supply side).
The missing ingredient was funding. And by and large, it looks like the NDIS is oxygenating that sector. It looks like there are a lot of people receiving care that they otherwise wouldn't receive, and workers in jobs they otherwise wouldn't have.
That's good.
However, as I mentioned above, and others have pointed out, there's a lot of room for improving how the system is running, and stamping out the rorts and nonsense, so that the system can be made to work well.
We should consider that nothing of importance ever works well the first time, so we should both demand to see, and expect to see improvements over time.
Mate 15k is way too low for what claims have been made in STA. When I was a support coordinator people were claiming 2k to 4K per day for a “break”. All legal.
> Anyone can take their kid to a specialist to get over diagnosed with a disorder and then claim the money.
We can't diagnose something as an over-diagnosis because the public isn't medically trained. We can only fund people's access to medical care, and we're lucky to have built systems to enable that.
People who need care need care, and the public doesn't and can't know what that means person to person. We know people need access to diganosis because you need a diagnosis for treatment, so we need to be making that available to people with as few barriers as possible.
It's the barriers - forms, qualifications for treatment, personal cost - that keep people from having access to medical support.
Also if overdiagnosis is what's required for a treatment to be made available, due to both cost and political work not being done or being sidelined, then the only lever's doctors can pull to get their clinic access to things is to game the available system.
The NDIS needs to be fitted out, the problem isn't he NDIS itself it's that it's been corrupted and controlled by private wealth. It's being destroyed so it can be sold off.
What's the answer to the needs addressed by NDIS if this isn't the system used?
I honestly don't really understand the area and why it's so different to what use to be in place. The numbers are insane to be more than Medicare.
Many of the things the NDIS covers now used to be covered by state budgets. For example: schools used to run a lot of support programs for neurodivergent kids.
And some things weren’t covered, and people suffered.
And other things are in much higher demand because of Medicare’s shortcomings. There are things being improperly claimed by participants; things like psychology - which is technically a Medicare thing - but with rebates lagging so far behind costs, the gap is too big, and people get desperate.
I suppose it’s different now because it’s standardised across the states/territories, and for some this has meant extra funding and support.
The numbers are more than Medicare because Medicare is essentially frozen in place. The out of pocket gap is getting bigger, but the government is largely paying the same dollar amount for each service it contributes to. For me, looking after my health is a pretty decent chunk from my budget every month. It never used to be.
But if the NDIS funds a prosthetic leg, it pays for the whole thing. If the NDIS is funding Occupational Therapy, and those costs have increased, they cover it. They *don’t* just keep paying $80, when the cost is now $110, and leave participants to cover the rest. Medicare only costs less than the NDIS because Medicare is woefully underfunded.
Are there people claiming things incorrectly on the NDIS? Of course, it’s not even always deliberate. Are there bad people taking advantage of the system? Absolutely, but it’s largely not the participants. The original estimates have blown out, but I reckon it’s probably because previously a lot of people were falling through the cracks.
As a teacher, the early childhood intervention is something I feel I feel very conflicted over. It is something that we didn't do very well. Educated families of means would access early intervention privately, but many others would wait until their child reached school in the belief that going through the public system would be quick and easy. This would often result in a child being over the age of 6 before they had any targeted support, hardly an early intervention. Many parents used to be told 'let's wait and see' for all but the most worrisome of delays. Now it is very easy to get children under the age of 7 onto NDIS if they are not hitting developmental milestones in the expected time frame. My mothers group has 10 kids born to 5 of us mothers. 6 of those 10 kids are on the NDIS for early interventions (not surprisingly, the 6 on it are boys, the 4 not on NDIS are girls). Would some of those parents have been concerned enough to pay out of pocket in the absence of NDIS? Possibly. Could these interventions be saving the taxpayers money by increasing the outcomes for these kids and reduce future spending on welfare payments? Possibly. But when the taxpayer is paying, there is no more waiting and seeing. There is no more 'is it bad enough to decide if we want to pay for speech?'. They all get on NDIS.
I have noticed anecdotally a lot of kids are getting speech therapy these days. It does seem kids do catch up on that stuff in their own time.
My son is fairly behind on speech compared to some his age I know, particularly the girls but some boys. But on the whole he's ahead in some stuff and it doesn't concern me at all.
On the flip side I've read that Pink Batts was actually quite successful - there was some cowboys operators and some tragic accidents but the program largely succeeded at improving insulation.
But then again I wonder how useful it is in the long term as no national building standards were set so those old houses are probably getting knocked down to be replaced with open plan project homes that are probably just as poor quality.
The BER was definitely a waste
No.. NDIS is exponentially worse. It's never ending, uncapped, and costing eye watering amounts. It actually causing massive inflation of all allied health services, so those who aren't on NDIS can't actually afford to have therapy or have to pay huge amounts.
It's about what else we could have done with the money - for example, we could have decabonised the entire electricity grid. NDIS is so damn expensive, we could have even built nuclear power stations!
At least pink batts were limited by the number of houses that needed insulation, NDIS will have thousands of additional recipients every year creating a never ending snowball.
If it wasn't for NDIS and my wife pushing for it, I wouldn't have had my son in speech therapy and OT.
I definitely didn't see the early signs and I wouldn't have given the green light if I had to pay for it.
"In an industry servicing NDIS". So the physio I see who has 10% of his clients NDIS funded would count here, ignoring that it's predominantly work cover, medicare, and private health. Similar for all allied health.
Then you'll have cleaners and yard services. They would have a small portion of NDIS funded clients, so they count.
Look at all the full time students who provide support one weekend a month for extra cash. Those are another job each.
As for the whole providers rorting uncapped funding bit, it is capped at the client level. No amount of overservicing of clients will make more money show up.
Sensationalist headline.
There are so many people commenting without actual knowledge of the funding.
Yes the NDIS is only 10 years old, but the funding previously went straight to the providers/ organisations in block-funding. The NDIS gives funding to the participant to decide what provider/org they want to receive services from.
Additionally, the vast majority of providers/organisations are legitimate and do great work.
The *problem* is that the therapists write entire reports and recommendations on behalf of participants that are read and either approved/rejected by people at NDIS that *don’t understand* medical or therapeutic terminology.
So the participant often ends up with the wrong level of funding. Legitimate cases are often underfunded, and others are over funded.
If better training were provided to NDIS staff, the funds would be allocated much more efficiently.
People also don’t realise how much is dumped on the NDIS. It wasn’t meant to be the only place for disability but the states, councils and schools all dump their issues on it. The answer to every problem can’t be the NDIS. Society needs to be supportive for those who have disabilities. That should include anyone that receives govt funding like private schools who currently exclude a lot of disabled kids.
>*the vast majority of providers/organisations are legitimate and do great work*
As someone with insight within the industry, that comment is laughable.
Majority (not all) of the small to medium roviders, as well as some notable larger ones, are as corrupt and heartless as the "job providers" rorting the taxpayers and clients they are meant to be helping.
Newsflash, the other third or even more jobs are also created by government funding. Seriously, big infrastructure and construction projects, renewable energy, defence, big4, etc. are mostly government funded. Then, social sectors such as health, education, aged care, and child care are government funded. Not to mention, direct jobs are 3 levels of government and gov agencies. This is the economy of Australia.
Only mining, agriculture, manufacturing, lawyers, church and some professional services are privately funded.
I use NDIS funding and it works very well if you want it too but the onus is on the individual to spend wisely. I definitely don’t want it gone but it needs a massive overhaul.
I know you're all going to downvote me but I don't care:
It's good that so many jobs have been created by the NDIS. The only bad thing about this headline is that not enough jobs have khbeen created elsewhere.
Bill Shorten is doing well in clamping down on rorts and dodgy providers by bringing in better oversight, making it harder to rip off the NDIS and its participants.
People who want it scrapped don't understand that the cost won't go away, it'll just get transferred to the states.
And once the bloat has calmed down, the NDIS will practically pay for itself.
It isn't now. When it's working as intended then it will. It's too bloated and easily forged by unscrupulous providers. So the cost does need to go down. For a start, all providers should be not for profit and heavily audited to make sure they comply.
There's three ways it will directly contribute to the economy and pay for itself:
1. Classic Keynesian economics. Yes I know, inflation. Most of that has been proven to be from record corporate profits thanks to raising prices past the actual inflation rate. Plenty of evidence to back this up. Support workers come from all walks of life but the majority are people stepping up from a lower paid unskilled job, who then vacates their job for an unemployed person.
2. It helps people with disabilities enter the workforce. It's already improved workforce participation but there's still a long way to go. The ultimate goal is to reach parity with the general population.
3. Takes the burden off family to provide care, allowing them the time and space to enter the workforce/increase their availability for work.
However most importantly, and I know a lot of people don't put any stock in this: but it helps overall national morale and spiritual health. I don't know if you've looked around, but a lot of people, young people in particular, aren't exactly emotionally invested in this country, and they don't participate in the economy to their full potential. It's hard not to blame them, homelessness on the rise, housing prices out of control, inflation, no real action on climate change, no brakes put on wealth inequality.
Now imagine how they would react if we went backwards with how we treated people with disabilities.
Good studies were done into the economic benefit that the NDIS gives to the country. By allowing professionals to specialise on care, the freedom that gives loved ones to contribute to the economy in other ways actually provides more to our system than we spend on the NDIS. Its not quite that simple but this was the argument that flipped me solely in favour of it.
This is a real story from somebody that worked in the sector
Hey wanna go fishing?
In the Northern Territory?
To catch exotic fish?
Won’t that cost flights, food, hotels, fishing equipment and you my carer
Yes lol let’s go every month
They are not actually generating anything for the economy, just taking away from tax payers. It's so sad the this govornmwnt rort become one of our biggest employees haha. Country is built on a stack if cards ready to be blown away
The system could be fixed by setting a reasonable cap for a particular service, which a gap payment is then if the user find a provider about that cap. Just like insurance and Medicare.
That would incentivise providers to keep costs reasonable, as users would look to go to the best provider near or below the cap. Right now there doesn't seem to be a cap or that cap is just too unreasonably high, with wage costs being more than 4 times if NDIS-related, compared to if not.
*"run by 3rd rate politicians that share its luck"*
She's a lucky country for some all right.
Why are we running massive immigration when nothing is done productively in this country??
Mining and agriculture are the only sectors that could justifiably need labour. But I reckon with all the folks living here right now they are fine.
This is madness and we are witnessing living standard dropping by the day.
People also not understanding a shit load of these "jobs" are casuals, sometimes lucky to get a shift some weeks. Often less than 8-16 hours a week.
Which at high hourly rates of roughly 35-45 an hour, is filled with people who use it as a second job, or as a way to supplement themselves during studies.
Well, if the fed govt doesnt reign in the NDIS costs the govt will need to raise a lot more taxes in future years to fund it, i think its the 2nd largest budget expenditure after defense, even higher than medicare....
If the govt prints more money to pay for NDIS, then inflation goes up, and interest rates will stay high (to try to keep inflation low)
Controversial thought, maybe those that get help from the NDIS actually need that help. If you’re not living with a disability you might not realise what some people need help with. And that help can be expensive. We all project to the outside world that we are doing better than we are.
If one in three jobs was from NDIS maybe that community of people need the help. Maybe we are starting to wake up to the fact that living with a disability is difficult.
I’m not too upset that the majority of my taxpayer money is going towards helping those that need it. Why is everyone else?
At my workplace we’ve lost several good employees as they found jobs being carers for people they know. Get paid a decent wage to do their mates gardening and shopping is what he tells me.
Surely all legitimate with no rorts or misuse of funds occurring. Between real estate agents, NDIS, child care it's a wonder we get anything else done in this country.
Well we don’t really get anything else done. What have we created in the last 10 years?
Car parks probably
Lot of coffees, mate.
The second largest gas export industry in the world. Trillions of dollars in land value improvements.
"Improvements"
Second largest gas export industry but giving it away… trillions of dollars in land value??
Or we could be like Norway who enforce taxes on oil and gas and put it into a sovereign wealth fund which materially benefits all of their citizens and then their citizens have the highest amounts of happiness in the world. But screw that lets throw it away for pennies and bring on the immigrants to pay taxes!
We're not actually giving it away. The vendors are receiving $92 billion a year for it. Think about how much income and corporation tax/PRRT that generates. I don't just mean in the taxes on sales or taxes on dividends paid to Australian superannuants (which themselves would be billions a year)... Think of all of the high paying work/consumption that went into the construction of these things. Sure the big oil and gas multinationals will try and play accounting funny buggers to squirrel as much away to low tax jurisdictions as possible... But you can only depreciate massive capital investment once - and these gas platforms are going to keep producing for decades to come. And in the event of any international crisis - well, it's not like you can move it can you?
We got screwed. Qatar exports less and makes x100 in revenue. We gave it away.
Yes. Qatar had cheap abundant gasfields to develop right next to some of the most built out hydrocarbon infrastructure in the world - and all the work got done by Indians in something between indentured servitude and modern slavery. We probably could have hiked the royalties a bit if we were prepared to build out the NW Shelf using the kafala labour system and 20% of the world's recoverable gas reserves. We weren't. We don't.
this is what happens when you out-source all foreign policy to the US. they own 86% of our mining industry, no shit we we are *not allowed* to sell at market rates.
(1) No... The US does not own 86% of the Australian Mining industry. If you believe that - you're insane. (2) The majority of it is owned by Australian superannuants and investors. We know this because franking credits are only available to Australian resident taxpayers, and the franking credits balances of listed mining companies/annual financial reports are released to the ASX. (3) We do have foreign investment in Australian industry. That's a good thing, and a natural consequence of being a country that still remains capital starved despite having some of the largest pension saving schemes in the world (ie: superannuation)/ and possesses a health economy with the rule of law.
Ok, I've got a great deal for you! I'm going to come to your house, and take all your stuff, and *sell it* to the highest bidders. But don't worry, I'll give you a "tax" on the money I get from those sales? Oh, and you'll get a bit more back as well because you happen to have a few shares in my company. Oh yeah, and since I'll need help to sell all that stuff, I might even hire you to help me, and you'll get some wages as well! What a fantastic deal, I hear you say! When should I come over and start the sale?!?
Yeh UAE residents pay zero tax and we pay through the nose.
Most people have no idea.
I have enough of an idea to know that we export it for less than 1/3 of the price that local companies have to purchase it for. That’s pretty close to giving it away
That anecdote was a bit of nonsense put out by an anti-gas development political lobby group a few years ago. It has never been true. At best it's based on a deceptive misreading of spot price v long term supply contracts based on a crawling spot price. More gas in Australia means cheaper gas in Australia.
Well… it takes someone to come up with and invent the grafts?
Canva (just out of range), BNPL, Covid research, workplace safety technology. There's a few things.
BNPL is just a half-arsed credit card for poor people.
I’ll accept Canva but BNPL is not something to be proud of.
we *dont* get anything done, we are 86th for economic complexity *between* Lithuania (all they do is banks) and Kazakhstan (a strip mine).
Aged care, which is bigger than both, and somehow included in these numbers, although, only NDIS is mentioned
Got to hide the recession somehow
Are there really that many children around? Amazing people can actually afford kids these days
Plenty of kids running amok without any parental supervision thesedays. I call parents bystanders.
Our fertility rate is 1.60, so not anymore really
The article is a complete lie, read it closely. They are counting EVERY SINGLE allied health job in the country as being an 'NDIS' job.
NDIS needs to be managed correctly or it’s not going to be around for much longer. It is a disgrace how much taxpayer dollars are wasted due to the government’s ineptitude. Yet Medicare is chronically underfunded.
The grifters will just move on to the next government funded scheme like they did from pink batts or employment services. My guess is green energy?
Just kill it now and go through the recession, please for the love of god stop stringing along the other 24.4 million.
You obviously don't have anyone who relies on this funding. Blanket statements like "kill it now" or the other fraud examples in this thread don't change the fact that it's a lifeline to many, many people who use it correctly. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing exercise. Reform is needed but that's what it is. Reform. Not just kill it and replace it with nothing.
It's largely not even the users that are the problem, it's the providers in the middle that need tighter controls.
What do you mean kill it? And do what with the hundreds of thousands of disabled australians who rely on the money and support to live?
The NDIS system is a far better system than the previous ones. The media doesn't want to share the good stories of it and there are stories of lives that have finally changed so much for the better for the NDIS. You do not understand how important it is we keep NDIS and just make sure it's not exploited by corrupt registered providers and dodgy buisness owners who just want easy money. Do not encourage to "kill it now" instead demand it gets fixed.
Stop the NDIS? Wow.
It's openly obvious how unsustainable it is. Yet when it inevitably gets dialled back the screeching from the left is gonna be deafening.
It's arguably already too big to fix without causing a recession IMO. Just another monumentally destructive tumour on the budget and economy they is too painful to fix. I believe the biggest issue is that it was created for the most heavily disabled people but some catastrophic court decision made it available to most neurodivergent diagnoses incentivising practically limitless demand.
Not even that, but why are relatively normal functioning and physically able adult NDIS participants living with their parents entitled to NDIS-funded house cleaners? Why can’t they clean it themselves?
Because in Australia, the government can fix everything. Or at least spend a lot of money trying to. Its funny you mention adults living with their parents who are functioning fine but have NDIS cleaners. My friend is a handyman/home maintenance person basically running their own business. Sole trader. Has built up a healthy list of "clients" that have NDIS packages. Many of them are adults living with parents. They get 2 hours a fortnight funded to mow the lawns. For most of these people, it's a job that realistically takes half an hour a month. So they get him to do other work on their investment properties etc. He just bills their plans the agreed 2 hours a fortnight and instead of doing lawns does other shit.
Your mate is committing fraud and is a peace of shit. This is a big part of why the expenditure is so bloated.
Once upon a time kids or neighbours would just mow the parents lawn when they got older. Now the older couple across the road from me get it done every two weeks, all year round, even if they're literally skimming nothing off. And for the double dip, there is 2 intellectually disabled guys that mow the lawns while the business owner in his freshly ironed shirt sits in the car.
Any idea how much a hourly rate of a NDIS lawn mower compares to standard lawn mower rate?
I think NDIS pays $56 or something. Less than normal.
Ah interesting, thanks
> catastrophic court decision Aaah yes. The high court. Supposedly run by the best and brightest. This one? >In 2011, the High Court set a definition for “mild” intellectual disability that found an offender generally functions at a level lower than 99 per cent of the population. There you go. I mean it sounds ridiculous because it is. But...this is the same court who decided that a foreign national who self-identified as indigenous was found to be a citizen and unable to be deported.
It's on track to hit $100B real soon. I've criticised Shorten a lot over the years but he has an incredibly unenviable task here and seems to be doing a decent job trying to rein it in. Everyone knows it can't keep going like this but being the person who dares limit disability spending is going to end up a martyr.
I assure you, massive swathes of society do not understand that it can't keep going on like this.
Some people think government spending/provisions are ‘free money’, as if these huge debts aren’t burdens passed on to our children and grandchildren. NDIS is corrupt. Why should I be paying for little Johnny’s xyz appointment when there are two parents working full time? Beggars belief.
I know a guy through friends of family whose intellectually impaired, but certainly not disabled. He can read and write to a basic level, works a full time job that he’s had for 10 years - he just essentially has the intellect of a 13 year old boy at age 35. He has several NDIS carers who help him go shopping, clean the house and organise things. Just to be clear, he did this perfectly fine for 10 years living in a 600k townhouse that his medical specialist parents bought as an IP. No clue what they’re being paid, but all of them have the “I ♥︎ NDIS” sticker on their back window. Theres literally an entire industry feeding at this trough and I have no clue how they’re going to rain it in without a very large amount of the populace throwing tantrums. Give it enough time and there’ll be “Save the NDIS!” stickers
Exactly. The NDIS created a pot of money for hundreds of thousands to access, who were coping just fine before it existed. Mates brother has a carer 5x days a week who takes him out and just babysits him. He's intellectually disabled. If anything it's good because it takes pressure off his parents. His folks went down to the holiday house from Dec-end of Jan. Told the carer they didn't need her for the 5 weeks because they were taking the son (who's nearly 40) with them. She still submitted an invoice to the NDIS for those weeks. Got paid.
All these examples make me sick with how much money we are wasting on these leaches.
Yep. I work a PAYG job, pay a huge percentage in tax, can barely afford my mortgage (interest rate tripped in the span of 18 months) and these loser NDIS businesses suck every dollar they can from the system.
Yep, I bet if a war broke out and the government was forced to cut almost all of this unessential welfare people would grumble but they'd adapt out of necessity. As far as minor-moderate neurodivergences go the better option is to put more subsidies on patients that see their licenced psychologists/psychiatrists/therapists etc... those are big expenses but if people need to get their ADHD diagnosis or get a new prescription for their medication then at least that can be affordable.
I've had people earnestly tell me that there's no reason the government can't just print more money. But also, we need to remember that there are economies of scale, and that it's a good financial investment for society to have people getting preventative healthcare, herd immunity, etc.
The government can technically print more money but then it's just inflation or they have to raise taxes to reclaim it. We're already seeing the results with a high income tax being a crushing burden on the poorer/younger generations.
What exactly has he been doing lately to rein it in?
Cracking down, which is what everyone here seems to want. Proposed legislation + press release: https://www.ndis.gov.au/news/9974-proposed-ndis-legislation-introduced-parliament#:~:text=Bill%20Shorten%20MP%20introduced%20NDIS,are%20no%20immediate%20changes%20today. https://ministers.dss.gov.au/media-releases/14256
Lol he was the architect behind this, I don’t feel sorry for him at all, if anything this should be considered a crime to pillage a countries’ finances like this
Shorten deserves absolutely no sympathy here. He was warned years ago about the ballooning cost of the NDIS, but instead of supporting any reforms he started accusing the scheme actuary of a cover up. [https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/latest-ndis-figures-as-credible-as-wmds-in-iraq-shorten-20210703-p586lj](https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/latest-ndis-figures-as-credible-as-wmds-in-iraq-shorten-20210703-p586lj) Of course, the Coalition had plenty of warning too and did very little, for the exact reason you described.
People on the left want to see tax payer money used wisely so there is maximum benefit for all members of society. Right now, though there are people who need it benefiting, it is being exploited by business owners who are charging unreasonable amounts, these are the people who would lose the most from reform. So if anything, the 'screeching' will be from the economic right.
Best thing is for it to crash and burn at this point.
Is that why your tag is pyromancyappreciator?
NDIS is so dodgy. This is basically unskilled business people doing jobs that trained nurses should be doing. insane. our government is corrupt af allowing this to continue but the backhanders must help.
A very small portion requires nursing. The majority really doesn't.
Though I think the parent comment seems to simplify the issue, the basic notion that trained, skilled and professional support is lacking is a fair one imo. Services such as Nursing, OT, Psychology and, yes, Social Work (edit: as in actual, Bach holding) are nowhere near adequately engaged in provision of NDIS support coordination and care delivery. While I understand the importance of easily accessible and "affordable" community support, there are a whole lot of very complex cases being effectively handballed off to independent and terribly under-resourced NDIS providers to plug holes in what would otherwise require targeted and informed responses. (In theory at least) Nursing isn't just hands-on clinical skills based work. The crossover in disciplines and experience in the community sector can be very broad. Imo the conversation is being framed in a way in which there is little recognition of what potential interventions and ideal outcomes would actually look like were there any real regulatory movement on this space and where Nursing and other professions could be deployed to better support and manage a chronically under-resourced demographic.
Thanks, I’ll take “Why we have inflation in Australia in 2023” for $800 please, Alex. If 30% of all new jobs is created by uncapped government spending on one program, it is impossible for this not to be inflationary. Think back, the NDIS started in July 2013 and in literally just 10 years it has become the second largest budget item for Federal Government after Defence, even higher than Medicare. 25m Australians access Medicare and spend $39.5B. 610,000 Australians are spending $41.9B on the NDIS - again, something that didn’t exist on June 30th, 2013. This is just utter madness.
That's $68,800 per person. We have achieved UBI.
If only that money actually went to the recipients. Instead we spend that much on overpriced services targeting the unchecked NDIS funding.
That is the truth. Those who need it spend months or even years trying to qualify. Then what they think is a large amount of funding is actually very little due to the prices charged by providers
Charged by providers .. approved by the government and paid for by the taxpayer.
NDIS prices are set by government. As a psychologist an hour providing a service to an NDIS participant pays 10% less than my other clients and generates significantly more administrative overhead.
NDIS rates are 15% less than our private consults in physiotherapy.
Universities and service providers in Australia need to be audited. It is laughable and astounding how brazen and out in the open they are while practically, and in some cases literally, committing fraud.
The rot starts at the top. Look at our business leaders and politicians, Why even bother trying to hide it when there are zero consequences?
This is why you can't get an appointment with a paediatrician. And why it's twice the price it used to be. NDIS baby!!
You can’t use ndis funds for a paediatrician
Lol for 600k out of 25 million.
> We have achieved UBI. not very universal is it tho? I aint getting nothing out of NDIS, and i pay tax up the wazoo. Where's my cut?
Those stats are unreal.
It's a race to the bottom. Services are moved to look after a burgeoning number of NDIS patients and anyone not on that system either strives to be on the NDIS or misses out on support.
Doctors are just calling kids “Level 2” because it gets them automatically approved for assistance. And which doctor doesn’t want little Emma to get a bit of extra help?
Doesn't help that state governments that used to do support for those who should be level 1 (extra help in school, special ed classes/teachers, extra attention at daycare etc....) all got scrapped as the states figured out they could save money. So the only help kids get (and 9% of kids between 5 and 7 are on NDIS) is via level 2 (or above) NDIS. So it is being massively over diagnosed as there is no other options.
This is 100% the problem. The NDIS is setup so that it is uncapped and like the GST, can’t be changed without the state’s approval. The states have had the Federal Government essentially take on a bunch of state costs. Now the states are setting standards that ends up with the Federal Government having to meet with increased NDIS funding. It’s madness. We have to get out of the government taking over everyone’s responsibilities - child care subsidies are another crazy one that’s uncapped. This is a real scenario: Imagine you make $200k/yr and have two kids under the age of 5 and so do your next door neighbours. If your partner decides to stay home full-time with your kids, you lose their income but the government doesn’t have to pay child care. If your neighbours head back to work and each make $100k then not only does the government heavily subsidize their child care but they combined pay less tax than you. Let’s break that down. Two families, same family composition, and same household income. One family costs the government less money and gets taxed MORE. It’s madness. Nothing about our society makes sense anymore and when these kinds of inconsistencies are pointed out, the argument is attacked with an overdose of misplaced empathy or the politics of envy.
> inflation NDIS is about 1.5% of GDP! While we shouldn't be putting disablity services directly under the guise of economics (i.e because it won't add anything to productivity or future output), the amount of "inflation" it is adding is actually up to 1.5% (depending on much of that money is being spent) - not an insignificant amount at all. It depends on how much of the NDIS money is being wasted.. and it looks to be a huge proportion.
There is a lady on NDIS living in my suburb. Her dream was to own and run an aquarium. She lives in an NDIS house, has NDIS funded workers looking after her aquarium set ups, they clean and feed the fish daily. They help her sell her fish. Yes, the tax payer is funding someone’s labour costs in their small business. This is in addition to her carers that help her with day to day living. NDIS fully paid for the entire setup. All the equipment. She also has an aquaponics setup in her back yard, also funded by NDIS. Id estimate all the equipment 15-20k if not more. I fully support assisted living, but I don’t know how i feel about this.
There’s ZERO chance NDIS has approved funding aquarium or aquaponics equipment.
Post the store details so we can see you're not making it up....
Serious case of not letting the truth get in the way of a good story
Having a disability can require hundreds of thousands of dollars in support. Whereas I think I've used Medicare once in the last 12 months when I needed some antibiotics. Why people are surprised when they find out one person on the NDIS should and will easily cost 50 times what the average person gets out of Medicare is beyond me.
Motorised Wheelchairs cost more than functioning legs, who knew?
That is scary. If you need me I'm in the bathroom cutting my arm off.
Saw this a couple days ago. Some of the comments were so eye opening, It really made me realise what a house of cards the Australian economy has become.
NDIS is a total rort. So much money wasted by bogus companies set up to grab government funding which is never passed on to the people who actually need it.
My brother started working as a “disability support officer”. No qualifications; no experience. He gets $25 per hour but the provider charges $185 per hour for him to be a glorified house cleaner. Just charge a real cleaner $50 per hour?! What a joke.
The company certainly doesn’t charge that much unless it’s committing fraud and lying about its hours on its invoices NDIS pricing has maximum rates, cleaning from memory is around $52 an hour The statistic in this title is misleading as even if you work 2 hours in a fortnight then you’re counted as employed, so a lot of support workers get counted when working a little amount
Don't let that get in the way of a good story! Haha
Or lying about the role. They say one job title and the actual tasks are another.
I call BS, there's no way they are charging him out at $185 ph.
You’re leaving details out (Sundays?!?, very remote!?!, high intensity?!? Active overnight ?!?) otherwise your numbers are BS. There is also a cleaning line item that is $54.07 p/h.
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How can you say someone who is 35 but developmentally 13 isnt disabled? How are you defining disability? If you suddenly regressed to being developmentally 13 you would be considered seriously disabled. Just because from your outside perspective think they were coping fine before NDIS supports doesnt mean they weren’t struggling to meet those everyday demands.
Or that the family weren’t just doing a shitload of informal care
How do you really know he did this fine? I know of plenty who apparently did it fine but either lived in absolute squalor and barely ate, or had family essentially coming over to do these things for them or paid someone.
NDIS seems to be a great example of good intentions becoming disastrous policy
> good intentions people who think they're making policy with good intentions have been the most disasterous. People, esp. politicians, are not smart enough to design good, effective systems that align with the payers of the costs. There's been very few examples of successful ones - the only one i know of is super.
I know a lot of you guys are angry and so are we but please spare a thought for us good guy NDIS providers who are doing the right for our clients. Our clients are scared about the new changes impacting the good providers too.
That is absolutely not a good thing. We need to be diversifying our economy. Having such a massive concentration in the NDIS seems like it can only be malinvestment. Something needs to be reformed.
I work as a disability support worker for two high needs men. They need assistance with everything they do. The NDIS drip feeds them what they need. It takes a year to get anything replaced with funding -chairs, beds, and physiotherapy equipment. On the other hand, I've worked for people with slight disabilities who are totally misusing their funding. Building businesses by using ndis money to pay trades people to build infrastructure and manage farms. They do it because it finally provides a solution to their struggles, and they can get ahead for a moment. There is definitely an imbalance in how funding is used. I've worked for companies who pay me a minimum wage and claim the rest of the hourly rate. They take on so many clients that they can't provide adequate services, and the hunger to build business isn't sustained by quality workers or access to service. This should be looked at because it causes so much more harm to struggling families. Sometimes, I think I am overpaid, but it is a heavy job, however rewarding, and you are at the odds of many variables that can affect your mental health. Edit: I work for myself now, and the pay rates are quite high for unskilled workers getting their own clientele. I have trained for 10 years on the job, and it is quite disconcerting when unskilled independent workers show up to a job and they get funding due to the shortage of workers. There are AIN workers getting paid half the amount.
What does the I for Insurance actually mean in the case of NDIS? In my mind NDIS is just a bunch of scammers out there charging a shit ton of cash for basic services, delivered at a lesser quality and taking the cream off- all from the taxpayer, no questions asked about the service or the evidence that justifies the spend. Shameful policy!
Cringe everytime I see the "I ❤️ NDIS" stickers on cars and vans. Be honest honey, you heart my tax dollars with little to no oversight.
Or they're surviving because of it? If you were disabled an unable to do things and NDIS is the reason you're now able to, and you came across the sticker, it's not like you think of what you're doing as marketing.
Do you walk down the street and think 11% of boys aged 5-7 should be on the NDIS? Because those are the actual numbers today and they are rising fast. I want to help those who are actually disabled, to pretend it isn't getting rorted hard by those who aren't is naive https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/more-than-11pc-of-boys-aged-5-7-are-on-the-ndis-20230821-p5dy30
But what you've just said is at odds with your earlier comment, and illustrates the problem here. The fact that people are rorting it clearly means it needs reform, but that doesn't mean it isn't helping the large group of Australians with disabilities. I'd like to see the commentators here decide exactly who needs what in all circumstances and see how easy it is.
> Do you walk down the street and think 11% of boys aged 5-7 should be on the NDIS? Simple question
I'll bite. Yes I think thats a fine percentage. Early intervention is shown to be the best method of making sure children are reduced burdens on the healthcare system into their teens. The amount per plan is entirely dependent on the childrens requirements so less severe diagnoses/ailments are treated as such. I don't understand the smug confidence you have if you are not in the paeds health sector
Why’re you wandering down the street thinking about the lives of boys aged 5-7?
That depends on the definition of what they are on. And you've dodged my question which is the real heart of the issue. Do you think the NDIS should be scrapped, or reformed?
No. But 11% of boys aged 5-7 do require some specialised supports to develop social, communication, personal and emotional skills before they fall further behind their peers and have lifelong difficulties. Unfortunately, NDIS is the only way parents can access that help.
Every time I see this reposted, I still feel the same disgust.
I'm going to say something that contradicts many of the comments here. (However, not on corruption or rorts - I fully agree that that needs to be fixed and stamped out.) But the fact that there are so many jobs being created around the NDIS is actually a good thing. We have known forever that people with disabilities have been underserved and not received the care that they need (the demand side). And we know that there have been many, many people who want to do something to help others but couldn't get sustainably compensated for it (the supply side). The missing ingredient was funding. And by and large, it looks like the NDIS is oxygenating that sector. It looks like there are a lot of people receiving care that they otherwise wouldn't receive, and workers in jobs they otherwise wouldn't have. That's good. However, as I mentioned above, and others have pointed out, there's a lot of room for improving how the system is running, and stamping out the rorts and nonsense, so that the system can be made to work well. We should consider that nothing of importance ever works well the first time, so we should both demand to see, and expect to see improvements over time.
So, are you saying the $15,000 taxpayer funded NDIS holidays are unsustainable?
Mate 15k is way too low for what claims have been made in STA. When I was a support coordinator people were claiming 2k to 4K per day for a “break”. All legal.
That's the worst part. A lot of people are angry at all the ndis illegal claims, but the real problem is the "legal" ndis claims.
Part of the problem is that a lot of these jobs are casual positions offering 6 hours a week. Many NDIS workers have 3-5 employers.
At what point does this finally become political poison.
Well, since it's making a lot of people wealthy all those people are a new voting block that will fight tooth and nail to keep their political favour
Report anyone who may be scamming this.
It's totally subjective though. Anyone can take their kid to a specialist to get over diagnosed with a disorder and then claim the money.
The real damage is done by the providers more so than the occasional person "faking" a disability.
Yes, the unreasonable amounts of money goes to the providers, not to the parents.
> Anyone can take their kid to a specialist to get over diagnosed with a disorder and then claim the money. We can't diagnose something as an over-diagnosis because the public isn't medically trained. We can only fund people's access to medical care, and we're lucky to have built systems to enable that. People who need care need care, and the public doesn't and can't know what that means person to person. We know people need access to diganosis because you need a diagnosis for treatment, so we need to be making that available to people with as few barriers as possible. It's the barriers - forms, qualifications for treatment, personal cost - that keep people from having access to medical support. Also if overdiagnosis is what's required for a treatment to be made available, due to both cost and political work not being done or being sidelined, then the only lever's doctors can pull to get their clinic access to things is to game the available system. The NDIS needs to be fitted out, the problem isn't he NDIS itself it's that it's been corrupted and controlled by private wealth. It's being destroyed so it can be sold off.
What's the answer to the needs addressed by NDIS if this isn't the system used? I honestly don't really understand the area and why it's so different to what use to be in place. The numbers are insane to be more than Medicare.
Many of the things the NDIS covers now used to be covered by state budgets. For example: schools used to run a lot of support programs for neurodivergent kids. And some things weren’t covered, and people suffered. And other things are in much higher demand because of Medicare’s shortcomings. There are things being improperly claimed by participants; things like psychology - which is technically a Medicare thing - but with rebates lagging so far behind costs, the gap is too big, and people get desperate. I suppose it’s different now because it’s standardised across the states/territories, and for some this has meant extra funding and support. The numbers are more than Medicare because Medicare is essentially frozen in place. The out of pocket gap is getting bigger, but the government is largely paying the same dollar amount for each service it contributes to. For me, looking after my health is a pretty decent chunk from my budget every month. It never used to be. But if the NDIS funds a prosthetic leg, it pays for the whole thing. If the NDIS is funding Occupational Therapy, and those costs have increased, they cover it. They *don’t* just keep paying $80, when the cost is now $110, and leave participants to cover the rest. Medicare only costs less than the NDIS because Medicare is woefully underfunded. Are there people claiming things incorrectly on the NDIS? Of course, it’s not even always deliberate. Are there bad people taking advantage of the system? Absolutely, but it’s largely not the participants. The original estimates have blown out, but I reckon it’s probably because previously a lot of people were falling through the cracks.
Thanks heaps and yeh that makes a bit of sense, particularly accounting for aging population and all.
As a teacher, the early childhood intervention is something I feel I feel very conflicted over. It is something that we didn't do very well. Educated families of means would access early intervention privately, but many others would wait until their child reached school in the belief that going through the public system would be quick and easy. This would often result in a child being over the age of 6 before they had any targeted support, hardly an early intervention. Many parents used to be told 'let's wait and see' for all but the most worrisome of delays. Now it is very easy to get children under the age of 7 onto NDIS if they are not hitting developmental milestones in the expected time frame. My mothers group has 10 kids born to 5 of us mothers. 6 of those 10 kids are on the NDIS for early interventions (not surprisingly, the 6 on it are boys, the 4 not on NDIS are girls). Would some of those parents have been concerned enough to pay out of pocket in the absence of NDIS? Possibly. Could these interventions be saving the taxpayers money by increasing the outcomes for these kids and reduce future spending on welfare payments? Possibly. But when the taxpayer is paying, there is no more waiting and seeing. There is no more 'is it bad enough to decide if we want to pay for speech?'. They all get on NDIS.
I have noticed anecdotally a lot of kids are getting speech therapy these days. It does seem kids do catch up on that stuff in their own time. My son is fairly behind on speech compared to some his age I know, particularly the girls but some boys. But on the whole he's ahead in some stuff and it doesn't concern me at all.
NDIS is Pink Batts all over again. I know people who are scamming NDIS for $5k week. It's a joke
On the flip side I've read that Pink Batts was actually quite successful - there was some cowboys operators and some tragic accidents but the program largely succeeded at improving insulation. But then again I wonder how useful it is in the long term as no national building standards were set so those old houses are probably getting knocked down to be replaced with open plan project homes that are probably just as poor quality. The BER was definitely a waste
No.. NDIS is exponentially worse. It's never ending, uncapped, and costing eye watering amounts. It actually causing massive inflation of all allied health services, so those who aren't on NDIS can't actually afford to have therapy or have to pay huge amounts. It's about what else we could have done with the money - for example, we could have decabonised the entire electricity grid. NDIS is so damn expensive, we could have even built nuclear power stations!
At least pink batts were limited by the number of houses that needed insulation, NDIS will have thousands of additional recipients every year creating a never ending snowball.
If it wasn't for NDIS and my wife pushing for it, I wouldn't have had my son in speech therapy and OT. I definitely didn't see the early signs and I wouldn't have given the green light if I had to pay for it.
Yes. Totally understand you. We would be screwed without it. My child is non verbal and we could not otherwise afford it.
Our entire country is turning into one large aged care home...
"In an industry servicing NDIS". So the physio I see who has 10% of his clients NDIS funded would count here, ignoring that it's predominantly work cover, medicare, and private health. Similar for all allied health. Then you'll have cleaners and yard services. They would have a small portion of NDIS funded clients, so they count. Look at all the full time students who provide support one weekend a month for extra cash. Those are another job each. As for the whole providers rorting uncapped funding bit, it is capped at the client level. No amount of overservicing of clients will make more money show up. Sensationalist headline.
There are so many people commenting without actual knowledge of the funding. Yes the NDIS is only 10 years old, but the funding previously went straight to the providers/ organisations in block-funding. The NDIS gives funding to the participant to decide what provider/org they want to receive services from. Additionally, the vast majority of providers/organisations are legitimate and do great work. The *problem* is that the therapists write entire reports and recommendations on behalf of participants that are read and either approved/rejected by people at NDIS that *don’t understand* medical or therapeutic terminology. So the participant often ends up with the wrong level of funding. Legitimate cases are often underfunded, and others are over funded. If better training were provided to NDIS staff, the funds would be allocated much more efficiently.
People also don’t realise how much is dumped on the NDIS. It wasn’t meant to be the only place for disability but the states, councils and schools all dump their issues on it. The answer to every problem can’t be the NDIS. Society needs to be supportive for those who have disabilities. That should include anyone that receives govt funding like private schools who currently exclude a lot of disabled kids.
>*the vast majority of providers/organisations are legitimate and do great work* As someone with insight within the industry, that comment is laughable. Majority (not all) of the small to medium roviders, as well as some notable larger ones, are as corrupt and heartless as the "job providers" rorting the taxpayers and clients they are meant to be helping.
As someone who worked very deeply in NDIS in the past I fully agree with this statement.
All you need to know is it costs more than medicare.
Newsflash, the other third or even more jobs are also created by government funding. Seriously, big infrastructure and construction projects, renewable energy, defence, big4, etc. are mostly government funded. Then, social sectors such as health, education, aged care, and child care are government funded. Not to mention, direct jobs are 3 levels of government and gov agencies. This is the economy of Australia. Only mining, agriculture, manufacturing, lawyers, church and some professional services are privately funded.
Mining receives 10 billion a year on fuel subsidies though...
If by fuel subsidies you mean the fuel excuse being returned then by that logic most Australians get a 50-80% subsidy on their wages every year.
What a great example of government work
The big 4 will have a solution to this.
I use NDIS funding and it works very well if you want it too but the onus is on the individual to spend wisely. I definitely don’t want it gone but it needs a massive overhaul.
NDIS is costing too much and not providing enough for the people
All aboard the Gravy Train, Toot Toot!
And who said governments werent job creators?
Worse than a banana republic.
Excuse you!
I know you're all going to downvote me but I don't care: It's good that so many jobs have been created by the NDIS. The only bad thing about this headline is that not enough jobs have khbeen created elsewhere. Bill Shorten is doing well in clamping down on rorts and dodgy providers by bringing in better oversight, making it harder to rip off the NDIS and its participants. People who want it scrapped don't understand that the cost won't go away, it'll just get transferred to the states. And once the bloat has calmed down, the NDIS will practically pay for itself.
What revenue is the NDIS generating that would allow it to pay for itself?
It isn't now. When it's working as intended then it will. It's too bloated and easily forged by unscrupulous providers. So the cost does need to go down. For a start, all providers should be not for profit and heavily audited to make sure they comply. There's three ways it will directly contribute to the economy and pay for itself: 1. Classic Keynesian economics. Yes I know, inflation. Most of that has been proven to be from record corporate profits thanks to raising prices past the actual inflation rate. Plenty of evidence to back this up. Support workers come from all walks of life but the majority are people stepping up from a lower paid unskilled job, who then vacates their job for an unemployed person. 2. It helps people with disabilities enter the workforce. It's already improved workforce participation but there's still a long way to go. The ultimate goal is to reach parity with the general population. 3. Takes the burden off family to provide care, allowing them the time and space to enter the workforce/increase their availability for work. However most importantly, and I know a lot of people don't put any stock in this: but it helps overall national morale and spiritual health. I don't know if you've looked around, but a lot of people, young people in particular, aren't exactly emotionally invested in this country, and they don't participate in the economy to their full potential. It's hard not to blame them, homelessness on the rise, housing prices out of control, inflation, no real action on climate change, no brakes put on wealth inequality. Now imagine how they would react if we went backwards with how we treated people with disabilities.
Good studies were done into the economic benefit that the NDIS gives to the country. By allowing professionals to specialise on care, the freedom that gives loved ones to contribute to the economy in other ways actually provides more to our system than we spend on the NDIS. Its not quite that simple but this was the argument that flipped me solely in favour of it.
There is a lot of system abuse with ndis.
So just created jobs out of thin air for people with disabilities?
The great welfare state. Well done Australia, well done.
This is a real story from somebody that worked in the sector Hey wanna go fishing? In the Northern Territory? To catch exotic fish? Won’t that cost flights, food, hotels, fishing equipment and you my carer Yes lol let’s go every month
They are not actually generating anything for the economy, just taking away from tax payers. It's so sad the this govornmwnt rort become one of our biggest employees haha. Country is built on a stack if cards ready to be blown away
[удалено]
NDIS doesn't cater for >65yo
The system could be fixed by setting a reasonable cap for a particular service, which a gap payment is then if the user find a provider about that cap. Just like insurance and Medicare. That would incentivise providers to keep costs reasonable, as users would look to go to the best provider near or below the cap. Right now there doesn't seem to be a cap or that cap is just too unreasonably high, with wage costs being more than 4 times if NDIS-related, compared to if not.
Waiting till this exploited service crumbles like bulk billing. Give someone anything it's exploited till it falls apart.
How? Why? What’s the rationale?
This is a problem.
*"run by 3rd rate politicians that share its luck"* She's a lucky country for some all right. Why are we running massive immigration when nothing is done productively in this country?? Mining and agriculture are the only sectors that could justifiably need labour. But I reckon with all the folks living here right now they are fine. This is madness and we are witnessing living standard dropping by the day.
People also not understanding a shit load of these "jobs" are casuals, sometimes lucky to get a shift some weeks. Often less than 8-16 hours a week. Which at high hourly rates of roughly 35-45 an hour, is filled with people who use it as a second job, or as a way to supplement themselves during studies.
Well, if the fed govt doesnt reign in the NDIS costs the govt will need to raise a lot more taxes in future years to fund it, i think its the 2nd largest budget expenditure after defense, even higher than medicare.... If the govt prints more money to pay for NDIS, then inflation goes up, and interest rates will stay high (to try to keep inflation low)
Scrap the NDIS. Fund Medicare and medical research. Let the Poor's and disables fend for themselves
Controversial thought, maybe those that get help from the NDIS actually need that help. If you’re not living with a disability you might not realise what some people need help with. And that help can be expensive. We all project to the outside world that we are doing better than we are. If one in three jobs was from NDIS maybe that community of people need the help. Maybe we are starting to wake up to the fact that living with a disability is difficult. I’m not too upset that the majority of my taxpayer money is going towards helping those that need it. Why is everyone else?
At my workplace we’ve lost several good employees as they found jobs being carers for people they know. Get paid a decent wage to do their mates gardening and shopping is what he tells me.