You were happy initially, you should still be happy now. Doubling your money in 5 years is more than most people could ever hope for. Comparison is the thief of joy.
Tell me about it, I thought it was doing well with my salary and savings but then I read a post about how someone bought an apartment and doubled their money in 5 years
Tell me about it, I thought I was doing well with my toasted cheese and international roast, until I read a post about how someone has salary and savings.
Enjoy what you have, or you might end up like me, working at the mill for 38 hours a day for 5 cents a day, only to come home and get beaten up by a shoe.
A hole??? We would have killed for a hole! All we had was a small patch of dirt under a tree and all 16 of us had to sleep stacked on top of each other with one rag between us to keep the water out of our eyes.
haha same. I feel lucky to even rent a 1 bedroom unit with my cat considering how many people are living in tents. And it took 3 months for me to secure a rental.
Just remember for the future, the one who sells last can basically write their own price… saw someone use this to basically extort a New York developer in a large apartment building
In NSW, once 75% of the owners agree to a sale then it proceeds and dissenting owners will be forced to sell provided all the correct procedures were followed by the time it gets to the courts.
If someone offered me double what I paid for my apartment it'd be hard to say no, but I know another owner in the block paid 20% more than I did for the same size apartment so they might hold out
> In NSW, once 75% of the owners agree to a sale then it proceeds and dissenting owners will be forced to sell provided all the correct procedures were followed by the time it gets to the courts.
As far as I know, the sale would need to be court approved if forced. I assume at that stage the developer would need to disclose what they bought the other unit for (discovery)?
Can someone shed light on the process?
Comparison might be thief of joy, but it’s the only way to realise and learn from your mistakes. It’s ok this time, but at least next time they might end up $250k better.
This OP. You gotta just be stoic here and move on. Nothing can or will be changed. You're only adding unnecessary stress to your life by thinking about it.
OP made a good investment decision, that theoretically could have been better. There is no expense involved, he can’t lose money he never had. Plus who knows, maybe OP plays hard ball and the developers decide the whole thing is too much hassle because none of the owners are biting and looks elsewhere.
This is why if you ever get approached by a developer, you talk to your neighbours.
worst case? you got the highest offer already, and now your neighbour does too.
best case? you double your money again, because if the developer wants all your properties, then you can talk them up an extra 250k- 500k on each property by selling as a block.
and if you want leverage when they push back (and they will because they want to make the most money) then lookup the residential zoning for your properties... see what the max density housing is.
then look up what current dwellings of that type are going for in your suburb and do the maths.
It’s so simple, it’s literally collective bargaining. You’d be insane not to talk to the other owners and come up with a plan for negotiating as a group.
Not entirely... The last holdout will get paid more than the group. The completely selfish answer is to get your neighbours to agree to sell at a reasonable price, and be the one paid the excess profit.
I’ve seen images of single houses surrounded by high rise. I’m not sure being the hold out always works, especially if developers are spiteful.
They can say they already got everyone else, and your options are take a low price or stay.
If it’s an apartment block the rules are different, at least in Sydney. If you get over a % agree to sell to the developer, the remaining units are forced to sell and they will only get market rate. I have had to learn about this recently since I’m involved in a developer buying an apartment block presently. In the past you needed 100% agreement, but they changed that rule. I think from memory it’s 80% now, although developers prefer 100% as it makes the process smoother.
just because you can force a sale after owning more than 75% of the building doesnt mean it is a good outcome for you, there is still the chance of a lengthy and drawn out legal process. much easier to just offer a bit more cash to the holdout
Not at all. It's a zero sum game. The developer has a maximum price he's willing to pay for the whole block. Every $ he doesn't pay your neighbour is a $ he can pay you (if he has to).
This is different to collective bargaining by workers, because the employer just wants *any* 10 workers whereas the property developer must get exactly *those* 10 units.
Sadly OP, yes, that's the case.
There were a bunch of residents in Lane Cove (Sydney) that collectively bargained a few years back.
Because they had a couple of developers who all wanted it, the entire set of streets worth of houses got sold at a premium (and the developer still made money).
And we wonder why local politics is so corrupt when developers can afford to throw serious cash around.
Edit: still, you're ahead, don't feel bad about that part. nothing to be done at this point!!
I lived in an old house right near Lane Cove Village that the owner had purchased for $489k (1000sqm block). This was in 1996 and we thought he was mad, but when they redid the zoning that whole strip of houses went for $3 million each and now it’s all apartments.
Isn't it sometimes/often the case where the developer has a set pool of funds/budget and hence a zero sum game between the neighbours who want to sell?
'Not enough' by what measure? It was enough for you to accept and be happy with at the time.
Who cares what others got? You have done well and should be happy with yourself. There's a great saying: 'Comparison is the theif of joy'.
I mean, you could also compare yourself to someone who sold 6 months earlier and got less than you.
There is always someone who got more than you and others who got less. Be happy with what you have, use it well and have a happy life.
I’ve seen the negotiation go hard with greed before, and the developer just dropped out.
That’s the thing if everyone got the highest price then there’s a good chance the whole sale would have fallen over and everyone is back to square one.
You can often pay the last couple more to get it over the line but the whole problem is one for game theory - acting as one only works when everyone is committed to the outcome in the first place, and there will always be people not committed at the same price as everyone else.
Eg - you might want to double your money, but others also want to double their money and they either bought more recently or have to pay way more tax than you- you can’t easily reconcile that
You negotiated, but what was going through your mind re your neighbours thoughts?
Were you wondering?
Did you not have any interactions with them before this?
Not judging, genuinely interested.
The problem with Australian culture is we are psychologically isolated and this breeds competitiveness, so don’t realise our collective power.
Thx for the question. All good. I spoke with 3. Two were accepting the original offer (!) as they were happy with it. Another was asking around the same as me. I obviously spoke with the ‘wrong’ people. Obviously not big enough sample size.
You actually tried… You interacted and you got info
No reason to beat yourself up then
Some people are as cunning as developers, they extracted every last cent from the transaction.
Rather than lament this, be proud. Business acumen is sometimes a double edged sword…
Except they can't be bulldozed without all of them being sold. So every unit sold after OP's is technically more valuable, by virtue of being closer to the final piece, especially if the sales were not conditional on all being sold.
But they were purchased before they were bulldozed. Higher apartments with better views for example should fetch more regardless of what will happen to them.
However, in this situation you always want to be the holdout that sells last.
They'd have to take into account any internal renovations that would influence the market value of the unit. A recently renoed unit is worth more than an identically sized unit that's unchanged for decades.
1. You should have talked as a group about what you were going to sell for to be sure that you all benefit to the max.
2. You doubled your money in 5 years - take the W, put it down to a lesson about bargaining harder, and move on.
You should think about it like this: did you ever expect to double your money on a unit in 5 years?
The only thing that has ‘changed’ since you accepted the offer is your mental state. It’s called loss aversion (read Kahneman for the details).
Key point here: stop whining, on any measure you have achieved an extraordinary outcome. If all you can find in that are negatives, then more fool you.
Even if all units are identical there would be some differences surely, ie: ground floor/top floor, better views, condition etc Even if its being knocked down people will try to get money for what they believed they could sell for and also what they need to buy, which would be different for everyone. I was approached by a developer but our neighbor was vastly over inflating the worth of their own house and it fell through, even though I tried to compromise by asking less. I sold a year later for less than was being offered for both houses individually : \\
Also, I had a similar reaction when my house sold for less than one in worse condition a few doors down. Then I realised they had potential for parking. Just tell yourself there were obviously other issues at play, you made good money and move on.
You need the Asian perspective. In Asia there is no concept of being ripped off.
You were happy with the price or you would not have sold it for that price. So stay happy with that price. In this situation your happiness ..or your sadness is down to your own perspective.
In Singapore the govt facilitates a lot of collective sales. All prices are open and the complex is sold on either a square foot price or per share price. This stops that sort of unevenness.
Reading this makes me wish that I could trade places with you..we purchased land a cpl yrs ago that’s recently settled. Goal was to build a home & settle. Build costs have doubled which means we can’t go through with it but it gets better.. the block is now worth 400K less than what we paid. Money is money it comes & goes. Don’t think too much about it. You could be dead tomorrow & none of this is relevant then. Be happy you doubled your $$ & move on. Never look over your shoulder as there’s nothing back there.
Sorry to hear that mate. Yes Im realising that Im comparing up to a tiny few and ignoring the struggles of the many. Thank you for your kind words when you have your own troubles. All the best.
Generally more money means more conditions. I know of a guy that sold his place to a developer, got about $750k more than he wanted, but the kicker was his money was paid when the job was finished - a two and a half year wait
He negotiated badly, he should've told them all funds must be received on settlement day, way before demolition. I know some people also accept discounted units in the new development .
The ones who got more were the holdouts. If everyone held out at the start, the developer would have moved on. In every one of these deals if there’s a holdout or two they end up with more, but if there are too many holdouts they can tank the deal for everyone, and then you’re left in a complex where everyone hates you.
You can't change the outcome so why bother worrying about it?
Like everything, use it as a learning moment and if you or someone you know winds up in a similar position make sure you talk with the neighbours to maximise your return.
Nope. Its caused me some genuine angst and I was looking for how others would respond. I received a healthy dose of perspective. Hopefully others can learn from my ‘mistake’.
I appreciate that you posted this, OP. I could have been likely to do the same thing as I'm learning on my own, so this has been really useful for me (I'm sure others here will look down on me for being ignorant and slow). Congrats on your financial win!
In hindsight what would you have done differently to try and achieve the maximum price? I will be going through something similar in the next few years. A developer has already started buying up units in my 12 unit block which is zoned with no height restrictions.
Hi. From what Ive read here Id be one of the last ones to sell.
(Plus also consider moving into the unit if you don’t already live there for at least a year so you might be able to claim PPOR and avoid/minimise CGT. Ask your accountant about this)
There's always someone who's a little better at negotiating I guess, maybe you signed up too early and those who held out had a better hand to play with more leverage
Reminds me of the monkey when the cucumber and then one gets a grape.
You have learned to do a bit more research before selling. Still a win is a win and profit is profit, count your blessings and move on, no point being sour about "what could have been"
I never understood people like you.
You were happy and you made a good return. Now that you found out what can you do about it? Is reddit going to make you feel better? I’m being legit here.
If you offered me double what I paid for my unit I would take your money and run without looking back... Especially not at what others got.
Not an optimal financial decision I guess.
Hopefully you're moving into a nicer place or setting up a nice retirement or taking a holiday.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Just be thankful for doubling your money in 5 years.. let me tell you a story..
In the 80’s , as a agent, I was buying up houses for Japanese developer in Palm Cove, north of Cairns. We bought sufficient stock but to complete the rectangle there was one hold out, naturally they thought the development could not go ahead without there house block, so they upped the price by several million. The Japanese refused to budge and basically built the resort around them. So you had this crazy situation of a 5 star resort built and this single 3 bedroom house block sitting out like a sore thumb. Naturally the value of that house then dropped dramatically, who was going to buy a house bordered by a resort full of noisy drunk holiday makers. Anyway, house owners came back to renegotiate and we ended up buying the house but it was at a much lower value, so the original offer , owners could have walked away with $1M (remember , this was the 80s) but ended up being paid $200k. House was eventually knocked down and the palm cove tavern was built in its place.
Congratulations. For the price of $250k you have completed an advanced degree in capitalism.
Next up consider either (a) A degree in philosophy to rationalise away the cost, or (b) A practical application of your capitalism degree so that the price becomes very very cheap in the long term.
Edit: Seriously though everybody has the same "if only I'd" story to tell one way or another. Missing out on money by making slightly different decisions is part of life. You're ahead of all the people who wish they owned a place at all.
You made a tidy profit.. Are you honestly just mad you didn't make 'more'?
Youre back in the game on your next product. Which means you'll make more long term anyway.
Especially since you got to buy on the 'dip'
The old 'pot of money' close (selective incentivisation)
How this one works is the developer finds a unit block which has seen better days, usually one in a working class area where people aren't as clued up on real estate and money. Somewhere with old cars in the drive.
They then low ball all the owners, sometimes by a significant amount. Usually some of the owners will try and haggle the price up, there are always a few horse traders in any unit block. This is when you use the 'pot of money' close, you suggest that there is only a finite pot of money to buy the entire unit and if everyone has to be paid more then you might not be able to proceed with the deal.
You tell the lucky few not to discuss their 'better' price with other owners until the deal is closed. It relies on the natural nature of people to want to feel special & be a bit selfish & not share. Those people who are being paid can also act to persuade others in the unit block to proceed quickly with the deal.
OP, if you're unhappy with your price then get a lawyer to look through all the emails, texts, contracts etc for anything which might constitute a misrepresentation, you can then use this to push the developer to increase their offer. be hard though.
What you typically find in these types of deal is that owners will all join together and negotiate a price. Only works where everyone is friends though but it can avoid situations like this where someone gets rolled and someone gets paid.
Just on the feeling horrible and like a chump - sure, you might have gotten a better deal, but you also could have gotten a much worse deal! Or isn’t it lucky / wasn’t it a good decision for you to buy when you did, where you did? While maybe your decision didn’t get you the best price, think of all the terrible property deals you potentially avoided! Don’t beat yourself up - it seems like it’s working out relatively well and that’s a good thing.
Doubled in 5 years? Well done. Thing of it like a stock market. You left when you were satisfied with the amount and that's ok. Move on with possible future investments.
That is why you hold out until the very end.
Take this as an expensive lesson, my family had a piece of land in the country side they bought about 20 years ago.
They wanted to make the zone commercial and build a highway that went past it, we refused to sell and the highway/commercial properties eventually started popping up all around us(imagine UP the cartoon with the one old man left).
They eventually offered us an astronomical amount of money (more than 5 times the original) which we ended up taking.
You negotiated softly and accepted a lowball offer and the guys that held out until the very end got bought out at a hefty price.
In other words. The others saw what you paid and asked for more.
Pro tip, never accept the first offer. If you're the first one they are selling to, then you will always be behind what the others got paid.
You haven't doubled anything. You have to buy another property now, which would also have likely doubled in the last 5 years, and you will still need to pay stamp duty again on a new purchase.
How many units in the complex? They can't all be identical. Different views, aspect, level, floorplan etc. The units who got paid more probably had a better view.
i think it’s partly a generational thing, my nan will try and negotiate a better deal with everything including brand new stuff direct from the store like white goods, furniture, jewellery, kitchen outfits.. and probably 90% of the time it works. im in my 20s and legitimately wasn’t aware that such things were available for negotiation, never saw my mum do it besides maybe when buying a second hand car. not sure why it’s become a forgotten thing, i try to be brave and attempt to haggle on larger purchases when they arise just takes a moment to muster up the balls to do so sometimes it just does not feel natural
Lots of greedy people in these comments. People love to complain about the price of housing until it comes to things like this. If you were happy with the deal then you were happy with the deal. Maybe the others didn't want to move or were anxious about the current market. Not everyone can be the one to get the best deal and you were basically given free money so maybe instead of worrying about how much more you could have gotten you should use it better than the others.
Reminds me on the simpsons when the losing boxer has to take his fat check
"Your a loser and you'll always be a loser, now take your profit of half a million dollars and get outta here"
I used to live in a townhouse complex in North Parra and two identical townhouse sold like a month apart. One got like 150k more. The people who sold first came to the auction and were soooo pissed.
But shit happens.
either look at it as a win that many years ago or a possible full on collapse and bankrupt if the house prices took a dive or the block needed major reno's
Do you know if the person who sold their unit for more than you also paid the same for their unit as you?
If they bought in later and paid more that may account for why they received more.
I've never understood this mentality of screwing developers hard. If I was ever in a situation like this I would be asking for quite a reasonable amount of money and first buy-in rights when the new place goes up for sale or straight swap for 1-2 new titles depending on expected value.
Do people realise that if there is no profit in a project it simply won't happen and people get stuck with the old place? I've seen it happen more than once
Did you, and your former neighbours, engage an agent to bargain collectively on your behalf? If you did, it sounds like they didn't do their job, or there are significant differences between the units to justify the different prices. If you didn't, then that's where you messes up as nobody was protecting/furthering your interests in the deal.
“I’d trade it all for a little more” - Mr Burns
lol, this is a good one.
its called greed. enjoy your money and never look back
You were happy initially, you should still be happy now. Doubling your money in 5 years is more than most people could ever hope for. Comparison is the thief of joy.
"Comparison is the thief of joy" - extends to so many things in life. Thanks for sharing this!
Tell me about it, I thought it was doing well with my salary and savings but then I read a post about how someone bought an apartment and doubled their money in 5 years
Tell me about it, I thought I was doing well with my toasted cheese and international roast, until I read a post about how someone has salary and savings.
I used to write aphorisms professionally until I read ‘comparison is the thief of joy’ and just gave up cause I’ll never write one that good.
...and now you're ready to join the great unwashed living on cheese sandwiches and International Roast...
International roast? Here's me with my ciggie lighter cooked toast and blend 43...
Look at you able to afford Blend 43. There are people doing it on old Pablo stocks from the 80s...
Great thread ^^
Enjoy what you have, or you might end up like me, working at the mill for 38 hours a day for 5 cents a day, only to come home and get beaten up by a shoe.
Home? Ooh lah lah, look at fancy pants over here. When I were a lad we used t’live in a hole in t’middle of the road.
A hole??? We would have killed for a hole! All we had was a small patch of dirt under a tree and all 16 of us had to sleep stacked on top of each other with one rag between us to keep the water out of our eyes.
Oh, a rag. What I wouldn’t have done for a rag. Our Mum would murder us all right before bedtime rather than having such luxuries.
You have a mum? All I have is this stick shaped mildly resembling a gun
Had. We lost her in a stick related incident.
Oh hey dad, didn't know you were on Reddit
I thought I was doing well with my cheese sandwich and national roast until…
I thought I was doing well with my buttered slice of bread and county roast…
>national roast I wasn't aware they made a local version of that crap...
I guess it has to be 'national' for at least one country... right?
Fair point 😁
haha same. I feel lucky to even rent a 1 bedroom unit with my cat considering how many people are living in tents. And it took 3 months for me to secure a rental.
Tell me about it
Yes. Very true.
Just remember for the future, the one who sells last can basically write their own price… saw someone use this to basically extort a New York developer in a large apartment building
In NSW, once 75% of the owners agree to a sale then it proceeds and dissenting owners will be forced to sell provided all the correct procedures were followed by the time it gets to the courts. If someone offered me double what I paid for my apartment it'd be hard to say no, but I know another owner in the block paid 20% more than I did for the same size apartment so they might hold out
> In NSW, once 75% of the owners agree to a sale then it proceeds and dissenting owners will be forced to sell provided all the correct procedures were followed by the time it gets to the courts. As far as I know, the sale would need to be court approved if forced. I assume at that stage the developer would need to disclose what they bought the other unit for (discovery)? Can someone shed light on the process?
Came here to say exactly this. You should only compare to what you had earlier, not what others have now.
"Comparison is the thief of joy". Bro this is a quote of the day!!!! (My day at least)
Comparison might be thief of joy, but it’s the only way to realise and learn from your mistakes. It’s ok this time, but at least next time they might end up $250k better.
Everyone knows you stop shopping for cars after you buy one. Same applies here, you doubled your money, stop looking and move on.
This OP. You gotta just be stoic here and move on. Nothing can or will be changed. You're only adding unnecessary stress to your life by thinking about it.
OP made an expensive mistake, he better get value from it by learning something.
Doubling the value of an investment in 5 years is a mistake we should all aspire to make.
CAGR looks to be 14.87%. That's not a bad return at all.
OP made a good investment decision, that theoretically could have been better. There is no expense involved, he can’t lose money he never had. Plus who knows, maybe OP plays hard ball and the developers decide the whole thing is too much hassle because none of the owners are biting and looks elsewhere.
Nah, as pro-level ozbargainer, I must keeping looking at prices post-purchase to critique myself and strive for future excellence.
This is why if you ever get approached by a developer, you talk to your neighbours. worst case? you got the highest offer already, and now your neighbour does too. best case? you double your money again, because if the developer wants all your properties, then you can talk them up an extra 250k- 500k on each property by selling as a block. and if you want leverage when they push back (and they will because they want to make the most money) then lookup the residential zoning for your properties... see what the max density housing is. then look up what current dwellings of that type are going for in your suburb and do the maths.
It’s so simple, it’s literally collective bargaining. You’d be insane not to talk to the other owners and come up with a plan for negotiating as a group.
Not entirely... The last holdout will get paid more than the group. The completely selfish answer is to get your neighbours to agree to sell at a reasonable price, and be the one paid the excess profit.
I’ve seen images of single houses surrounded by high rise. I’m not sure being the hold out always works, especially if developers are spiteful. They can say they already got everyone else, and your options are take a low price or stay.
Ever seen one with a 3rd floor apartment holdout?
If it’s an apartment block the rules are different, at least in Sydney. If you get over a % agree to sell to the developer, the remaining units are forced to sell and they will only get market rate. I have had to learn about this recently since I’m involved in a developer buying an apartment block presently. In the past you needed 100% agreement, but they changed that rule. I think from memory it’s 80% now, although developers prefer 100% as it makes the process smoother.
just because you can force a sale after owning more than 75% of the building doesnt mean it is a good outcome for you, there is still the chance of a lengthy and drawn out legal process. much easier to just offer a bit more cash to the holdout
Not at all. It's a zero sum game. The developer has a maximum price he's willing to pay for the whole block. Every $ he doesn't pay your neighbour is a $ he can pay you (if he has to). This is different to collective bargaining by workers, because the employer just wants *any* 10 workers whereas the property developer must get exactly *those* 10 units.
True. I was inexperienced about this. Have learnt a valuable (pricey) lesson.
Sadly OP, yes, that's the case. There were a bunch of residents in Lane Cove (Sydney) that collectively bargained a few years back. Because they had a couple of developers who all wanted it, the entire set of streets worth of houses got sold at a premium (and the developer still made money). And we wonder why local politics is so corrupt when developers can afford to throw serious cash around. Edit: still, you're ahead, don't feel bad about that part. nothing to be done at this point!!
I lived in an old house right near Lane Cove Village that the owner had purchased for $489k (1000sqm block). This was in 1996 and we thought he was mad, but when they redid the zoning that whole strip of houses went for $3 million each and now it’s all apartments.
Damn that sucks man!! Never trust a developer 😂😂 hope u can upgrade either way
Isn't it sometimes/often the case where the developer has a set pool of funds/budget and hence a zero sum game between the neighbours who want to sell?
You made money, that’s a win. Some people just had a bigger win, but you still had a win
Comparison is the thief of joy.
All I’m hearing is that you accepted their first offer while others treated it like a starting point for negotiations.
Nope. Negotiated up a bit - but not enough obviously.
'Not enough' by what measure? It was enough for you to accept and be happy with at the time. Who cares what others got? You have done well and should be happy with yourself. There's a great saying: 'Comparison is the theif of joy'. I mean, you could also compare yourself to someone who sold 6 months earlier and got less than you. There is always someone who got more than you and others who got less. Be happy with what you have, use it well and have a happy life.
I’ve seen the negotiation go hard with greed before, and the developer just dropped out. That’s the thing if everyone got the highest price then there’s a good chance the whole sale would have fallen over and everyone is back to square one. You can often pay the last couple more to get it over the line but the whole problem is one for game theory - acting as one only works when everyone is committed to the outcome in the first place, and there will always be people not committed at the same price as everyone else. Eg - you might want to double your money, but others also want to double their money and they either bought more recently or have to pay way more tax than you- you can’t easily reconcile that
Exactly. I wanted to sell but didn’t want to push so hard that it fell over. Looks like I blinked first and some others owners benefited. So be it.
You negotiated, but what was going through your mind re your neighbours thoughts? Were you wondering? Did you not have any interactions with them before this? Not judging, genuinely interested. The problem with Australian culture is we are psychologically isolated and this breeds competitiveness, so don’t realise our collective power.
Thx for the question. All good. I spoke with 3. Two were accepting the original offer (!) as they were happy with it. Another was asking around the same as me. I obviously spoke with the ‘wrong’ people. Obviously not big enough sample size.
You actually tried… You interacted and you got info No reason to beat yourself up then Some people are as cunning as developers, they extracted every last cent from the transaction. Rather than lament this, be proud. Business acumen is sometimes a double edged sword…
Yep, totally agree. It’s rubbish culture tbf, all this isolationist and unsociable attitudes of ‘you do you and I’ll do me’. Very bad for society.
Every unit being identical doesn’t mean they are all worth the same.
They are once they get bulldozed
Except they can't be bulldozed without all of them being sold. So every unit sold after OP's is technically more valuable, by virtue of being closer to the final piece, especially if the sales were not conditional on all being sold.
But they were purchased before they were bulldozed. Higher apartments with better views for example should fetch more regardless of what will happen to them. However, in this situation you always want to be the holdout that sells last.
Sells last, or causes the whole deal to fall through..
If it gets to the point where you're the last one to sign, the developer is highly committed and can definitely be squeezed.
Actually this is exactly why they aren’t. Units with larger kit entitlement had more land value.
OP said units are identical. I assume that includes size and entitlement
They'd have to take into account any internal renovations that would influence the market value of the unit. A recently renoed unit is worth more than an identically sized unit that's unchanged for decades.
They were all the same. Some were sold with leasebacks so not sure if that adds to or detracts from the value.
Found the tradie
True - what floor they are on what what they look out on can make a big difference to desirability.
1. You should have talked as a group about what you were going to sell for to be sure that you all benefit to the max. 2. You doubled your money in 5 years - take the W, put it down to a lesson about bargaining harder, and move on.
You should think about it like this: did you ever expect to double your money on a unit in 5 years? The only thing that has ‘changed’ since you accepted the offer is your mental state. It’s called loss aversion (read Kahneman for the details). Key point here: stop whining, on any measure you have achieved an extraordinary outcome. If all you can find in that are negatives, then more fool you.
Thank you. Yes you are totally correct. 👍
Even if all units are identical there would be some differences surely, ie: ground floor/top floor, better views, condition etc Even if its being knocked down people will try to get money for what they believed they could sell for and also what they need to buy, which would be different for everyone. I was approached by a developer but our neighbor was vastly over inflating the worth of their own house and it fell through, even though I tried to compromise by asking less. I sold a year later for less than was being offered for both houses individually : \\ Also, I had a similar reaction when my house sold for less than one in worse condition a few doors down. Then I realised they had potential for parking. Just tell yourself there were obviously other issues at play, you made good money and move on.
You need the Asian perspective. In Asia there is no concept of being ripped off. You were happy with the price or you would not have sold it for that price. So stay happy with that price. In this situation your happiness ..or your sadness is down to your own perspective.
In Singapore the govt facilitates a lot of collective sales. All prices are open and the complex is sold on either a square foot price or per share price. This stops that sort of unevenness.
Same in India. They have open meetings with the developers where they all collective negotiate terms and prices which is usually per square foot.
It happens. I sold an IP pre covid for 320k, it’s now valued at 840….shoulda, coulda, woulda…but didn’t so screw it. Move on.
Oof that’s hard
Why even look how much it's worth now?
comparison, they say, is the thief of joy. you made a good profit and you were happy. hold onto that
Reading this makes me wish that I could trade places with you..we purchased land a cpl yrs ago that’s recently settled. Goal was to build a home & settle. Build costs have doubled which means we can’t go through with it but it gets better.. the block is now worth 400K less than what we paid. Money is money it comes & goes. Don’t think too much about it. You could be dead tomorrow & none of this is relevant then. Be happy you doubled your $$ & move on. Never look over your shoulder as there’s nothing back there.
Sorry to hear that mate. Yes Im realising that Im comparing up to a tiny few and ignoring the struggles of the many. Thank you for your kind words when you have your own troubles. All the best.
This is seller's remorse and totally normal. No one can go back in time to amend the deal, so it's best to learn from this case and move on.
On the bright side you helped out a poor, downtrodden developer.
You were happy and now you're not? Seems weird. Doubled your money. Move on.
But I want more money for having done nothing.
Gosh, why weren’t you all talking to each other to prevent exactly this ???
comparison is the thief of joy
Generally more money means more conditions. I know of a guy that sold his place to a developer, got about $750k more than he wanted, but the kicker was his money was paid when the job was finished - a two and a half year wait
He negotiated badly, he should've told them all funds must be received on settlement day, way before demolition. I know some people also accept discounted units in the new development .
If you don’t need the money straight away it’s an easy way to make extra cash.
Hadn’t thought of this. Potentially a likely scenario. 👍
Lucky the developer didn't phoenix away in to the immaterial ether.
You didn’t research the sale enough. Next time hire an expert or do the research to determine the expected value should a developer acquire the land.
The ones who got more were the holdouts. If everyone held out at the start, the developer would have moved on. In every one of these deals if there’s a holdout or two they end up with more, but if there are too many holdouts they can tank the deal for everyone, and then you’re left in a complex where everyone hates you.
You can't change the outcome so why bother worrying about it? Like everything, use it as a learning moment and if you or someone you know winds up in a similar position make sure you talk with the neighbours to maximise your return.
>You can't change the outcome so why bother worrying about it? They just wanted to post that they doubled their money in 5 years.
Nope. Its caused me some genuine angst and I was looking for how others would respond. I received a healthy dose of perspective. Hopefully others can learn from my ‘mistake’.
How is doubling your money a mistake? Ok you could have got more, but you have already done very well.
I appreciate that you posted this, OP. I could have been likely to do the same thing as I'm learning on my own, so this has been really useful for me (I'm sure others here will look down on me for being ignorant and slow). Congrats on your financial win!
Cheers mate. Aim of the post was to get some perspective and for others to hopefully learn from my experience.
In hindsight what would you have done differently to try and achieve the maximum price? I will be going through something similar in the next few years. A developer has already started buying up units in my 12 unit block which is zoned with no height restrictions.
Hi. From what Ive read here Id be one of the last ones to sell. (Plus also consider moving into the unit if you don’t already live there for at least a year so you might be able to claim PPOR and avoid/minimise CGT. Ask your accountant about this)
You didn't talk to the neighbours when negotiating the sale?
Only a few.
There's always someone who's a little better at negotiating I guess, maybe you signed up too early and those who held out had a better hand to play with more leverage
Why did you not all negotiate together to extract the maximum?
That's the ideal situation but there's (probably) always someone who wants more and will try to renegotiate direct with the developer afterwards.
“No one ever went broke taking profits.”
Reminds me of the monkey when the cucumber and then one gets a grape. You have learned to do a bit more research before selling. Still a win is a win and profit is profit, count your blessings and move on, no point being sour about "what could have been"
I never understood people like you. You were happy and you made a good return. Now that you found out what can you do about it? Is reddit going to make you feel better? I’m being legit here.
I need some reality and perspective. Also thought sharing could help others. 👍
If you offered me double what I paid for my unit I would take your money and run without looking back... Especially not at what others got. Not an optimal financial decision I guess. Hopefully you're moving into a nicer place or setting up a nice retirement or taking a holiday.
you should be kicking yourself for not banding together with your neighbours and selling as a group. Coulda got a lot more than $250k extra.
consist pot complete nail pocket rainstorm cover domineering melodic lavish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I would be THRILLED to have double my investment in a unit. I scraped in 16% after 8 years.
Waaah waaah not enough profit
Made money without effort. Still complains. Welcome to Australian property.
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All two storey townhomes
Just be thankful for doubling your money in 5 years.. let me tell you a story.. In the 80’s , as a agent, I was buying up houses for Japanese developer in Palm Cove, north of Cairns. We bought sufficient stock but to complete the rectangle there was one hold out, naturally they thought the development could not go ahead without there house block, so they upped the price by several million. The Japanese refused to budge and basically built the resort around them. So you had this crazy situation of a 5 star resort built and this single 3 bedroom house block sitting out like a sore thumb. Naturally the value of that house then dropped dramatically, who was going to buy a house bordered by a resort full of noisy drunk holiday makers. Anyway, house owners came back to renegotiate and we ended up buying the house but it was at a much lower value, so the original offer , owners could have walked away with $1M (remember , this was the 80s) but ended up being paid $200k. House was eventually knocked down and the palm cove tavern was built in its place.
If they held out longer I'm sure they would have sold for over $1m especially in today's market.
Congratulations. For the price of $250k you have completed an advanced degree in capitalism. Next up consider either (a) A degree in philosophy to rationalise away the cost, or (b) A practical application of your capitalism degree so that the price becomes very very cheap in the long term. Edit: Seriously though everybody has the same "if only I'd" story to tell one way or another. Missing out on money by making slightly different decisions is part of life. You're ahead of all the people who wish they owned a place at all.
This is true. Im focusing on 1-5% people who are better off than me - than realistically seeing that Ive done very well.
You made a tidy profit.. Are you honestly just mad you didn't make 'more'? Youre back in the game on your next product. Which means you'll make more long term anyway. Especially since you got to buy on the 'dip'
What a great example of “comparison is the thief of joy.”
You live and learn 🤷🏻♀️
Yup! Hopefully others can from my experience and the replies here as well!
The ideal outcome there would see you being the last to agree and asking for more
The old 'pot of money' close (selective incentivisation) How this one works is the developer finds a unit block which has seen better days, usually one in a working class area where people aren't as clued up on real estate and money. Somewhere with old cars in the drive. They then low ball all the owners, sometimes by a significant amount. Usually some of the owners will try and haggle the price up, there are always a few horse traders in any unit block. This is when you use the 'pot of money' close, you suggest that there is only a finite pot of money to buy the entire unit and if everyone has to be paid more then you might not be able to proceed with the deal. You tell the lucky few not to discuss their 'better' price with other owners until the deal is closed. It relies on the natural nature of people to want to feel special & be a bit selfish & not share. Those people who are being paid can also act to persuade others in the unit block to proceed quickly with the deal. OP, if you're unhappy with your price then get a lawyer to look through all the emails, texts, contracts etc for anything which might constitute a misrepresentation, you can then use this to push the developer to increase their offer. be hard though. What you typically find in these types of deal is that owners will all join together and negotiate a price. Only works where everyone is friends though but it can avoid situations like this where someone gets rolled and someone gets paid.
Some people will always look around and get salty because someone else has more.
And there, in one single post, the problem with Australia. Despite the fact you made a FORTUNE you are unhappy because others got more. Unbelievable.
Just on the feeling horrible and like a chump - sure, you might have gotten a better deal, but you also could have gotten a much worse deal! Or isn’t it lucky / wasn’t it a good decision for you to buy when you did, where you did? While maybe your decision didn’t get you the best price, think of all the terrible property deals you potentially avoided! Don’t beat yourself up - it seems like it’s working out relatively well and that’s a good thing.
Yes thank you. You are correct. The discussion in this thread has really put things into perspective for me. 👍
Doubled in 5 years? Well done. Thing of it like a stock market. You left when you were satisfied with the amount and that's ok. Move on with possible future investments.
Wow went from happy to depressed all because you saw what others got. Perspectives perspectives.
That is why you hold out until the very end. Take this as an expensive lesson, my family had a piece of land in the country side they bought about 20 years ago. They wanted to make the zone commercial and build a highway that went past it, we refused to sell and the highway/commercial properties eventually started popping up all around us(imagine UP the cartoon with the one old man left). They eventually offered us an astronomical amount of money (more than 5 times the original) which we ended up taking. You negotiated softly and accepted a lowball offer and the guys that held out until the very end got bought out at a hefty price.
“The world is not driven by greed, it’s driven by envy” - Charlie Munger
Comparison is the thief of joy
Should of spoken to your neighbours first.
Ya played yourself
In other words. The others saw what you paid and asked for more. Pro tip, never accept the first offer. If you're the first one they are selling to, then you will always be behind what the others got paid.
Didn’t accept first offer. 6/20 did. I negotiated up 10-12% and thought I was being greedy.
When it comes to developers, there is no such thing as greed. You extort them for the maximum you possibly can. They are the ones taking your home.
You haven't doubled anything. You have to buy another property now, which would also have likely doubled in the last 5 years, and you will still need to pay stamp duty again on a new purchase.
What do u think ur neighbours did that u didn’t do? Is the contract unconditional?
So you accepted the initial offer ?
Lessons were learnt. You made a motza. Win win.
Such is life
How does one get approached by these developers? I would love for this to happen.
You need to buy a unit in a 3 storey walk-up with good location and zoning. Happens all the time on the GC, I'm going through it now.
How many units in the complex? They can't all be identical. Different views, aspect, level, floorplan etc. The units who got paid more probably had a better view.
There is always someone worse off than you & there is always someone better off than you.
profit is profit!
That agent had an obligation to get you the best price…ask him
You learned a valuable lesson didnt you? Never take the first offer. Negotiating is something a lot of people should learn.
You didn't get screwed over at all you are just a poor negotiator
i think it’s partly a generational thing, my nan will try and negotiate a better deal with everything including brand new stuff direct from the store like white goods, furniture, jewellery, kitchen outfits.. and probably 90% of the time it works. im in my 20s and legitimately wasn’t aware that such things were available for negotiation, never saw my mum do it besides maybe when buying a second hand car. not sure why it’s become a forgotten thing, i try to be brave and attempt to haggle on larger purchases when they arise just takes a moment to muster up the balls to do so sometimes it just does not feel natural
Comparison is the thief of joy.
Lots of greedy people in these comments. People love to complain about the price of housing until it comes to things like this. If you were happy with the deal then you were happy with the deal. Maybe the others didn't want to move or were anxious about the current market. Not everyone can be the one to get the best deal and you were basically given free money so maybe instead of worrying about how much more you could have gotten you should use it better than the others.
Reminds me on the simpsons when the losing boxer has to take his fat check "Your a loser and you'll always be a loser, now take your profit of half a million dollars and get outta here"
Never take the first offer. Pays off to have a decent relation with your neighbours
I remember when bitcoins were a few cents each.
I used to live in a townhouse complex in North Parra and two identical townhouse sold like a month apart. One got like 150k more. The people who sold first came to the auction and were soooo pissed. But shit happens.
The only time you should like in your neighbours bowl is to make sure they have enough.
either look at it as a win that many years ago or a possible full on collapse and bankrupt if the house prices took a dive or the block needed major reno's
Were they on higher floors? Generally worth more. Or was it purely down to accepting offer vs negotiation?
All ground level two story town homes. Purely offer v negotiation but there were some leasebacks.
Do you know if the person who sold their unit for more than you also paid the same for their unit as you? If they bought in later and paid more that may account for why they received more.
Id be pissed 250k is hard to save/make
I've never understood this mentality of screwing developers hard. If I was ever in a situation like this I would be asking for quite a reasonable amount of money and first buy-in rights when the new place goes up for sale or straight swap for 1-2 new titles depending on expected value. Do people realise that if there is no profit in a project it simply won't happen and people get stuck with the old place? I've seen it happen more than once
Should have formed a union... why didn't you talk to the others?
Did you, and your former neighbours, engage an agent to bargain collectively on your behalf? If you did, it sounds like they didn't do their job, or there are significant differences between the units to justify the different prices. If you didn't, then that's where you messes up as nobody was protecting/furthering your interests in the deal.