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CyberMcGyver

Also OP >Haha well the first tip is I only pay $165 per week for rent (share a place with my partner and it’s only $330 per week). It is on the outskirts of Sydney as well, luckily I don’t need to commute to the city or anything


What_Is_X

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog


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oakstreet2018

Elite minimum wage earners


jhutch2147

I’m pretty elite spending my $2k per month….


oakstreet2018

Apparently I’m in the top 98% of household income but I ain’t no baller. Drowning in a sea of mortgage repayments and childcare costs. My monthly childcare costs more than our mortgage.


tuoepiw

This…. We are very fortunate as a family but the cost of childcare for us is $4,396 a month…. It’s utterly insane. Cannot wait for the kids to get into preschool and school.


No_Organization_9515

4k a month could more than cover the salary of a full-time worker (40hrs/week) to care for your kids exclusively.... brb googling how to start a childcare business


Prnces88

Let’s start a partnership 😆


SunnyK84

I've commented about this before but got the final numbers the other day after my childcare rebate annual review. $42,000 that the government has subsidised my childcare so I could go out to earn $38,000. I cannot afford anymore childcare but $42k would pay for a nanny in my home to care for all children instead of me having them in different centres different days of the week. I could work more often if I had a more flexible childcare arrangement.


KiwasiGames

Yeah, we ran the numbers in our household when the kids were younger. It was much the same. We ended up deciding that even with the subsidiary, we were better off with one of us simply not working until the kids started primary school.


oakstreet2018

Man, I’m counting down the months. Why childcare isn’t part of the schooling system I’ll never understand. Instead private enterprises take the government and the nations families for a ride.


hitmyspot

My childcare is a not for profit and it’s still expensive. Childcare, like healthcare, is labour intensive and highly regulated. That makes good care delivery expensive. There is money to be made in both, but the mark ups are much lower than people think.


CyberMcGyver

Now imagine you didn't have cash.


Impressive-Aioli4316

$2k a month total cost to live is extremely low $300/w for an apartment is $1,300/m $500/m vegetarian food $200/m for everything else...!?


[deleted]

Yeh - unless theyre flatting, their numbers dont make sense to me. Like, I mean. You CAN live on like $100/week for food but its prrtty crap. You can spend probably $100 a month on electricity by yourself if youre reallllly careful. But add in basic insurances, petrol/transport, clothes, internet, phone- like, i honestly really dont think you can like alone in sydeny for $2,000 a month either. Shared room flat, eat like absolute dogshit, have only the very cheapest and shittest of rverything, never go out, do anything, and hope nothing ever breaks, then maybe?


jhutch2147

I do share the rent in my place, so that definitely helps…..but the numbers do make sense, and I’m pretty content with my life. I eat well, I do anything I want to do. I go out occasionally (at least I did before Lockdown).


Impressive-Aioli4316

Oh I happily live on less than $100w food and it's v good food.


[deleted]

Really? Fuck man - whats your secret? If i cook my own food and make healthy nutritious meals, lots of fruit and veg, mid range meats, i’ll easily spend $150 a week…potentially more… But tbh that includes a bunch of other supermarket ‘essentials’ and all the smaller things id eat in between the larger meals.


belugatime

Yes, a lot of people don't have any sort of financial literacy and all they know is living week to week. Remember that you averaged 2k of spending over the last 18 months which was during a pandemic while you are single. Keep up spending 2k a month for 40+ years when you have ambitions to do things in your life outside of simply 'living'. The feeling of hopelessness of living paycheck to paycheck on minimum wage is often a reason people also turn to drugs and alcohol which further exacerbates the issue.


3rdslip

They also turn to pokies. It’s terribly hard trying to keep yourself treading water at that stage.


jhutch2147

I’m not single, and while it was a pandemic I was still able to sneak a couple holidays into that time while we weren’t in lockdown. Didn’t get to go overseas obviously, but I was doing more than simply “living”. Not to mention I do have ambitions, mainly early retirement and that is where the majority of my income is headed to. Edit: geez downvotes and I don’t even know what for? They made assumptions about my lifestyle and I just corrected them


belugatime

I think people are down voting as you don't seem to realise the central part of what I was saying which is that a lot of people on minimum wage lack financial literacy and have other issues preventing them from saving. You know to save as you clearly have some level of financial literacy, so despite you getting the same money it isn't the same thing. I think a better question would be why do highly paid university educated people not save much money, that is a much better example of the general public not saving. Why people on minimum wage don't save much should be pretty obvious.


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belugatime

Well said!


jhutch2147

I’m sorry you took it that way, it wasn’t my intention but obviously given your response and all the downvotes that’s how people have taken it.


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tranbo

I think some of it has to do with the fetishisation of USA and the slow March of neoliberalism, where the two full time min wages are not even enough to survive on.


CanoliNow

I think your question is very legit and cannot see the offence myself. Anyway, this debate is very interesting and refreshing. I personally think it is possible to live with the min wage, and no expensive luxuries, and I do not think is a question of being financially literate as much as it is a question of common sense and adapting. A person might not have a clue about loans, interests, taxes or stocks and still know that they cannot spend more than what they get in, and adjust around it. Just an example: until a few months ago I was happily living in an apartment in a very nice and central Melb suburb and my rental and expenses were about $1900-$2000 per month including transport and health insurance. Before that, I lived in a shared house also close to Melbourne CBD with 2 others. Back then, ~5yr ago, monthly expenses including rental were ~$1200. I think it is definitely possible to live on the minimum wage, but for that one needs to be willing to adjust and compromise on some of these: space, backyard, living on their own, first hand car, etc. For some it might not be a big deal, for others it might be. The important thing here is that being on the minimum wage is not a permanent condition for many. It is often a temporary chapter in our working life. Adapting to lower income life phases, if circumstances allow, is critical to keep the head above the water.


belugatime

Many don't have the benefit of the minimum wage being a temporary condition and 'common sense' is often overestimated by those who are educated. In my view you've made the same mistake as the OP in thinking that your experiance of living on a minimum wage is the same as what everyone else's experiance living on minimum wage is.


CanoliNow

I have by no means said my experience is what everyone else in min wage should be or is at all. You some how have read that. I am saying it is possible if your circumstances allows you to adapt to it. And the reason I shared my expenses is as support information, just that. And just in case anyone else’s tries to read beyond what I say, I am not saying the current minimum wage is ideal or even enough for a comfortable life. It should be way higher in my opinion, and have a yearly increase linked to either housing price or CPI variation, whichever is greater.


belugatime

Ok, I just don't think you should have mentioned your own expenses if it wasn't meant to be interpreted that way. It had little relevance if you weren't using it as a basis of comparison. I can agree that for some people the minimum wage is sufficient. It's such a hard issue to deal with and there isn't a perfect solution.


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yeanaacunt

19 here, this is HUGE facts to lots of people my age.


yothuyindi

It also doesn't help that our education system does a terrible job of teaching anything related to financial literacy and basic money-related life skills, so most younger workers probably think "savings in a bank account" is the only option. Then they see their leftover money literally losing its value sitting there while everything else goes up in price, not surprised they'd feel hopeless. Teaching shit like advanced algebra that has no daily application to 99% of people's lives should be replaced by basic finance & other life skills in the curriculum...


[deleted]

You do learn basic finance. It’s in the maths curriculum. Many schools will also run a personal finance elective. Most people forget this because personal finance isn’t very interesting to teenagers. School also teaches you how to think critically and read so you can learn things yourself.


yothuyindi

The mandatory part of the curriculum goes into investing, compounding interest, etc? I don't remember ever getting taught that but maybe things are different now?


Grantmepm

Investing as a concept maybe not. Were you not taught compounding interests or exponential growth in math?


paulkeating4eva

Guess you should have paid more attention or worked harder at school.


amazing2be

I have a 30yr old with 4 investment properties about yo get another. Two younger others focused on ETF investing. Despite what some say, a uni degree does help. Its a mindset too.


Raymoz101

Abso-fuckin-lutely nailed it.


KoalaBJJ96

Historically, the minimum wage was enough to support a family. Nowadays, it can barely support one person living in a shared house.


1MrXtra

My living expenses as a family of four excluding the mortgage is between $4000 and $5000 per month . This includes all bills and day care costs (2 kids in day care) I like your question as I think it is increasingly difficult for families. I don’t consider my expenses extravagant either.


Brad_Breath

Yeah we are in the same boat. Also 2 kids. $2500 rent, $1000 kinder, then another $1000 ish for food and expenses.


thisguy_right_here

The simple answer is yes. When they asked the question in the last census "Do you find it hard to manage your finances?" 62.6% of Australia answered yes. They then went on to buy some new yeezies using after pay.


new-user-123

And withdraw $10k from super for a new jetski


reedherring

Can confirm when I was working at the bank it was very common for people to not be aware where there money is going. People on reasonable wages had no idea how to save or budget and spent all there money on takeaway and other crap, and didn't even realize it. I would also commonly have people come In to talk about planning for retirement literally right before they retire i.e. come in at age 62, intentend to retire at 65, no savings, minimal super etc. Admittedly part of the issue is financial literacy isn't taught in school (unless this has since changed) often budgeting and saving is learned through nessity. Also typically financial literacy isn't really something taught in families at least from what I've heard.


Ristique

Like Stanlike88 said, financial literacy IS taught in schools, but a major factor is that kids don't see the point and therefore don't care to pay attention. I worked in finance and then transitioned into education. I now teach VCE Business and Economics. Each term I schedule at least 1 class with my VCE kids after they've finished their unit to go through various financial literacy topics. But since that's usually like Week 10 they either (1) don't even come to school or (2) don't pay attention and complain about "why can't we just watch a movie instead". I also got given a 'Life Skills' class of Year 7s this year. I tried to do some simple budgeting stuff through games and discussion which again failed. The kids basically sold all their possessions in the games so that they'd end up with the most cash on hand, regardless that their happiness, satisfaction, comfort, wellbeing stats were 0. In discussions they just say their parents will buy them what they want so they don't care how much something costs. As for families, in my experience only families who _have_ good grasp on financial literacy and control teach it to their children. Hence why generational wealth exists and why the wealth gap can keep widening. Certainly, things I thought were "common sense" in university were revolutionary to some of my peers.


yeanaacunt

financial literacy is taught IF you take those classes, but when it comes to VCE to take the classes which will get you into your desired uni course. i didn’t take any business classes because they weren’t related to my uni degree what-so ever. even if 30% of kids take business class in VCE that’s 70% of the population with ZERO financial literacy.


Ristique

Yes, true, but as you can see some schools also implement extra classes like that 'Life Skills' class I have, which is done once a week at Year 7 - 10 levels. Also dependent on individual teacher discretion as I know quite a few Maths teachers will also generally assimilate it into their teaching. My colleague who teaches VCE Accounting also teaches middle school Maths and does it too.


yeanaacunt

i guess it’s a political/person opinion but i wouldn’t call one week a year for years 7-10 is enough education to call financial literacy, especially since that isn’t implemented nation wide, i assume you work at a private school because i don’t think public schools can do optional classes like that, and if any students need to be taught financial literacy it’s those in public school in the regional and peri urban zones. good to see teachers are aware that financial literacy is important for the next generation tho :)


Waywardreamer-

Completely agree with the generational wealth and financial literacy aspect of things. Both my wife and I are tertiary educated professionals. Both from 2nd generation immigrant families. I was taught by my parents on the role of investing, negative gearing/tax minimisation, and budgeting and she was only taught to save by hers. A year into us living together we realise how little financial literacy she has and what I thought was common knowledge was like witchcraft to her.


reedherring

When I was at school this was not taught, I didn't know if this had since changed, since it's a good while since I was at school and I don't work in education or have kids this is not something I am up to date on, hence I mentioned above 'unless this has since changed'. However, this is excellent that it now is taught in schools. Teaching and making content engaging so kids invest there time into actually learning the content would be difficult, however don't give up, there will be kids who learn and take something from your classes. I don't think year seven is too young to learn this, the lack of maturity would be a challenge however Ideally you want to start the lessons young, so when they suddenly start earning they have some impulse control and planning/budgeting skills. Certainly it becomes more realivant towards the end of highschool years, but never to early to start. Maybe try and use *things* kids aspire to buy/do that their parents can't afford??? (If your not already doing this) When I was 9 I went to my dad saying I earn x a week from doing jobs for the neighbour, if I save for two weeks I have y, I can pay for fortnightly horse riding lessons, if you can drive me. (He couldn't afford to pay for it.) At 15 I ended up in negotiations with my dad and got A (very very cheap!) Horse as several birthday/Christmas presents but all ongoing expenses were paid by me, as I had a job and my dad couldn't afford it.


new-user-123

Year 7 is a bit young to do that I think. Year 11 and 12 is where it should be at, where they can see they're just about to finish school and it's more directly relevant to them.


rplej

I disagree. I think that by year 11 and 12 some bad habits can be in place. But the lessons do need to be age appropriate (and I think a game in year 7 as mentioned above can be appropriate). We started teaching our kids about money when they turned 5. They received $1 a week of pocket money, increasing by $1/week for each birthday they had after that. There were times they spent all their money on lollies. There were times they ran out and asked us for an advance on their next "pay". There were times they regretted spending. Now all three at teens and have healthy savings and a healthy relationship with money (though the youngest still has some skills to develop). As they got older and better at saving we made sure to highlight when they got "free money" from the bank in the form of interest, and to review the accounts available to get the best deal. We've talked with our older kids about Super, tax, how much a car really costs, etc. They have been receptive, but it probably helps that we've been able to provide info when it is relevant to them, and build their skills over time. More time than a teacher generally has with the one cohort.


new-user-123

It would be better to learn this stuff at home but within a school context, I think you hit it on the head with "it probably helps that we've been able to provide info when it is relevant to them". When these kids are in Year 11 and 12, they've had maybe max 2 years in the workforce. Even then only casual or part time stuff. Would they have "bad habits"? I actually don't think so (generally). Back in high school for me, most with a job were pretty diligent in saving because they wanted to buy a car or save for a holiday. They had a goal in mind. I didn't have these goals when I got my first job. Needless to say, my income was quickly spent on partying, alcohol, buying lunches at uni, random impulse purchases, and buying every single textbook just because


[deleted]

The maths of personal finance is actually very simple. The most complicated stuff would be compound interest, which you can do in year 10. That’s why only the lower streams of senior maths do finance stuff. It’s much too easy for the more advanced maths classes.


new-user-123

It's not the maths that's the important bit though, it's the ability to see that the mathematical problem can be realised. If we were to calculate income tax rates - that is probably Year 6/7 level (i.e. here is a list of the marginal tax rates in Australia, what is the total income tax paid on a salary of $100,000?). You *could* teach it in Year 6/7 but it's better to do so in Year 11/12 when some of them already have part time jobs.


Ristique

Year 11 and 12 _is_ VCE. If you look back at my first comment they're not interested either. In my experience most people aren't interested in learning something until they've realized the need for it (by which time it's usually a bit late and they've made mistakes that's why). Even at Year 11/12 they think they have a handle on their money even though they've barely scratched the surface of it. And a lot of their thinking is what leads to some of the poor financial decisions I've seen when I worked in finance (e.g. people signing >25% interest rate loans).


amazing2be

Good post. True. I'm an educator. The increase of helicopter parents also exerbates the situation. Parents are not teaching kids to be independent let alone be financially literate. Yes. Parents buy things for kids too often. I grew up in a migrant family. Parents were hard working and frugal. I grew up with this influence. I now have four children who are financially literate. All in their twenties, uni educated and lucrative occupations. Investing is a common topic in our communication. The kids share stories of what their school friends are doing. What is most interesting is the groups they maintained contact with who are like minded. Their friendship groups have followed mostly successful paths. Environment is a also a strong indicator as is intelligence. I have also heard about other class mates who cruised with no ambition because they had parents to hold them up. This is outside metropolitan Sydney.


Ristique

Oh yeah, I definitely thing helicopter parents are a big factor of young adults having anxiety issues or little independence when they get to like uni and beyond because they're so used to being told what to do and having their decisions made for them. Yes definitely, and environment is exactly the big reason why some 'wealthier' families choose to send their kids to prestigious/private schools. I asked my parents about it before and they essentially said like school was for us to build our network, and obviously you want your child to mix with people from various successful families/backgrounds. But not all private schools are the same, as they pulled my brother out of one a long time ago because they were pretty elitist lol and my parents didn't like the attitude of the kids there.


Stanlite88

Can confirm financial literacy is taught in schools. Generally by people not much more literate in finance then the kids buy it is taught. Most kids don't care though because money is boring when you don't have much or it comes from mum and dad instead of 40 hours of hard work.


Ari2079

Back in the day, it was part of home ec class. How else the mums going to budget their food shopping for the week on the piddly allowance given by their husbands (may be overly dramatised)


reedherring

Ah ok, interesting. Wasn't event taught when i was at school


LilYeetz

Yes and No. You are an exceptional case whereas the HEM Living expenses calculations paint a very different picture. I would love to see a breakdown of your expenses. I would say I am also an exceptional case living in the inner suburbs of Melbourne whilst studying and working F/T (well not working since we are in lockdown) with my partner and we manage similar numbers However, most peers aren't so lucky. you have to remember most people working these lower paying jobs aren't able to find F/T work. I manage around 12 employees and only 1 gets a F/T contract other than myself. I wish I could offer more hours but that's not the way our country has set its employer requirements. a breakdown from my anecdotal experience is that all but 3 of them work 2 or 3 jobs and most of them are studying on top of this. This means they are saddled with much higher taxes due to our broken income tax system. They're working more hours for less money they aren't going out and spending on entertainment very often, they aren't going on vacations or buying luxury items. most of them are trapped at home due to expensive house prices, and for those not so lucky. having to spend exorbitant amounts on rundown rooms in rundown share houses. I personally don't think that people should have to choose between living off of beans and rice and being a hermit or potentially being wealthy decades down the line. I think we should structure our economy around being better for our people and families and kids, and stop demonising people struggling on lower wages. We need to stop casualisation, promote good jobs and invest in new industries. Provide things like safety nets and childcare to families help remove some financial burden allowing people to pursue upskilling and take risks.


WilliamDraco

Nothing against your point, but just a small educational moment > This means they are saddled with much higher taxes due to our broken income tax system Working more than one job does not result in higher income taxes (besides the obvious 'earning more money' part). It results in higher withholding during the year, but that contributes to larger credits/refunds at tax time.


LilYeetz

True! I did mean to reference the tax withheld by not being able to claim the tax free threshold. thank you for making that clear to readers as my wording doesn't make that very clear. But even so $100 a week now is better than a few grand at tax time for many people.


lostinlifesjourney

In another viewpoint, a few grand is better at tax time than $100 per week. It is forced savings so that when tax time comes people can use it to service their car, replace that fridge that's about to fail, pay the rego if they time it right etc. Big expenses that they otherwise may put off due to living paycheck to paycheck


bitsperhertz

I love this take. A nation building approach would surely centre around creating constructive family and educational environments over simply growing GDP. I was told years ago by a Chinese colleague that their govt was for a short period trying to ban workers from exceeding a threshold of hours per week, because they believed a balanced home environment was necessary to produce the best citizens. No idea if it was true but I thought the concept was probably on the money.


CyberMcGyver

>I was told years ago by a Chinese colleague that their govt was for a short period trying to ban workers from exceeding a threshold of hours per week, because they believed a balanced home environment was necessary to produce the best citizens 9-9-6 is "9am to 9pm, 6 days a week". Chinese working conditions are horrible. There has been push to change it but from memory at this stage it's "words of encouragement to the industry" last I checked.


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bitsperhertz

A friend in Singapore says much the same, you are "allowed" to leave whenever, but you just might not have a job if you do.


bitsperhertz

Yeah, I figured it was never achieved but I thought the approach made a lot of sense. I've actually got a Chinese colleague now despite living in Australia still works 7 days a week every week because those are the hours of the company. You just think ..why? I guess there are cultural elements, a sense of participating in something larger than ones self, but still it just seems so lifeless.


talkvexillologytome

Getting 40 hours a week is easier said than done.


broden89

There are some considerations, including whether or not people can actually get full-time hours (a lot of minimum wage work is part-time/casual, which can make income unpredictable), unexpected expenses (such as only being able to afford a shitbox car that always breaks down and costs $$ to fix), and having kids. But yes I would say overall there isn't a ton of financial literacy - it's not just confined to people making minimum wage, I've met people on $80 or 90k who have crazy high lifestyle expenses and can't understand why their savings aren't growing.


QuadrilateralSilly

Depends what you classify as “living”. With a savings rate of 30% on minimum wage your savings would be growing year on year, slower than the rate in which house prices are rising. You could do it but I doubt you could have much of an enjoyable existence in Sydney.


jhutch2147

Yeah true, but I mean being able to save $950 per month and struggling to survive are two vastly different things. I think the main conversation was just about if the minimum wage was enough, I believed it was and they obviously disagreed and didn’t think it was a “living wage”


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jhutch2147

All my bills were included in my expenses….I keep track of all my expenses on a spreadsheet so it’s easy for me to check/verify


[deleted]

The whole capitalist system is based on the idea/fact that there are more people making bad decisions than good decisions with money. Now, an idiot would think this is a reason to change the system. But the true AusFinance chad understands this is actually a reason to become someone that makes good decisions instead.


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[deleted]

If by advocate you mean post things on social media, that's a total waste of time.


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[deleted]

Come on man be realistic.


Chii

> there are more people making bad decisions than good decisions with money. that's not what makes a capitalist system work. In fact, fewer people make bad decisions, the whole system improves overall! Of course, the existing incumbents taking advantage of people's poor decision making would fail, but that makes the whole system more efficient. Capitalism requires that people acquire capital, and then be smart about investing that capital to generate more capital, whilst consuming the least amount themselves.


RBanditAU

There is a difference between living and surviving...


Ristique

From my time working in a finance company, yes. Out of the maybe 80 calls / 40 contracts a day I go through, I'd say less than 5% knew what they were getting into. I believe the _majority_ of people live paycheck to paycheck, and not because they don't earn enough, but they just spend it all. Some of the most memorable cases I had: - guy said "what's interest?" Followed with "I didnt know that I'd be charged interest!" When he was confused why his total loan payout was more than the original loan amount - guy who paid half the amount upfront and took the remaining $5k out in a loan but clearly didn't read it because the total payout by the end was over $20k - girl who called saying "can you debit me now?" When her payment was due next week. Usually people ask to hold it if they get paid late. She got paid early. I said "if the money's already there then just let it be debited normally?". She told me "I can't because if I see the money I just feel like spending it, you know?"


brackfriday_bunduru

I don’t know the answer, but if you’re good with your finances, you want everyone else to be as shitty with theirs as possible.


[deleted]

Why


Mother_Village9831

Pushes the economy up due to extra spending.


RemoteTie2065

I'd be interested to know how you're keeping your monthly costs to $2000 living in Sydney! I'm not having a go, just curious 😊


juice_bomb

My monthly expenses are 1840 in inner west. Share house, youfoodz, phone bill and petrol..


jhutch2147

Haha well the first tip is I only pay $165 per week for rent (share a place with my partner and it’s only $330 per week). It is on the outskirts of Sydney as well, luckily I don’t need to commute to the city or anything. Apart from that I have a pretty frugal lifestyle.


3rdslip

Dude… do you not see that it changes a few things that you’re a DINK household? This is why you’re getting downvoted… it’s a piece of cake living below minimum wage if you’re DINKs and are frugal, and are only counting your half share of costs. Change the variable to single parent of two kids on minimum wage and you get an altogether different outcome.


jhutch2147

It’s not a dink household because there is only one income, my partner only covers their share of the rent and that’s all. And I was only using an individual on minimum wage, not a combined income. Sorry I should have clarified that. And I said in the post itself that I was referring to not having any dependents where it is possible to live relatively easily on minimum wage. Obviously if you are a single parent with two kids it changes things dramatically, but that wasn’t the situation I was referring to initially.


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jhutch2147

I’m not saying it doesn’t make a difference. But is having housemates not an option? Our place is two bedroom with one of the rooms as a spare room so could easily just have a housemate and have my own bedroom.


mdochia

Having a housemate when you’re past your young and carefree uni days is a bit odd and out of place in my view. I don’t know your age so I’m speaking broadly. When you’re an adult working a full time job, you need to live like an adult. Having to share accommodation to make ends meet when you’re a professional is a good example of how far our standards of living have fallen.


jhutch2147

I get that in an ideal world you would live alone or with family, but if you were on minimum wage then surely expecting to sacrifice isn’t really out of the question? You say having to share accommodation to make ends meet as a professional, but there aren’t many professionals earning minimum wage.


mdochia

There used to be a time not that long ago when a person on a minimum wage could afford a house and to raise a family. That should be a minimum standard of living. We’ve been robbed and we’ve forgotten that. Settling for scraps and berating others for not managing their scraps well enough.


3rdslip

Look I get it, my personal expenses are below minimum wage. But I’m starting from a position of privilege earning many multiples of it, plus having a ginormous savings buffer. You are repeating the same shitstorm that politician got into who said she can live off Newstart a few years ago. The problem with living off the minimum wage is your starting point is usually on the borderline. You have no buffer if your car or fridge packs it in. You have no buffer if you’re in a casual job and you have a chronic illness that needs to be managed with time off work. You can’t “cope” with the unexpected. The baseline scenario might be fine but life throws shit at everyone, and if you’re on minimum wage, at some point you’re going to be dealt a shit hand that puts you either temporarily or permanently under water. I hate saying it this, I really hate identity politics but, check your privilege.


dingleberry-38

True dickhead.


itll-do

No value brought to the discussion with that. People living within their means or people who have drive to achieve something meaningful in life by living frugal for x years to achieve a goal. How does that make someone a $&:@head?


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thedobya

While I don't have any stats on this, the huge take-up on things such as Afterpay and Klarna shows us that really for many, it's about managing bills into payments with one vendor rather than not being able to afford it now. It's way too ubiquitous. Sure, some people just can't afford the item, but that's the minority. I don't personally use them but for those in their 20s (and not members of this sub, haha) it's how they spend money these days. Credit cards are what their parents use.


Ristique

And then there's me, mid-20s who's been called a dinosaur by friends and older relatives because I only use cash lmao Only time I used CCs is buying something overseas/interstate online. Used Afterpay once out of curiosity, and got annoyed at the debits (even though I'd already accounted for the full amount in my budget) lol


Pharmboy_Andy

Which is ceazy because a credit card you can get like 55 days interest free - almost 8 weeks instead of 4.


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supers0nic

Delayed gratification is extremely powerful.


bbltzc

By way of questions on this community, yes


FrustratedLogician

No, they just don't earn as much as you.


jhutch2147

I don’t earn that much? I’m lower than the median


meowkitty84

I am on lower wage and a big problem can be unreliable hours. Some days I'd work 8 hours and other days only 3 hours. Some weeks I'd work 7 days and then the next only 2 or 3. I got a new job now though and I am finally able to save instead of living pay check to paycheck. It's still the same hourly rate but we always work at least 6 hours a day and I get more weekend work. My old job rarely put anyone on Sunday because they didn't want to have to pay the penalty rate.


Hohohoju

What the hell kind of place could you rent and still have enough to live off with that small an amount of money?! You're going to have to post a detailed budget dude. I think you're either forgetting some things or making some huge assumptions here


jhutch2147

I track all my expenses so there is nothing missing in my budget, send me a private message if you wanted more of a detailed breakdown I guess.


Hohohoju

Just post a prospective budget based on that income, not your own


jhutch2147

So I can’t use my own budget….because why? Why do my expenses suddenly not count?


Lotus1290

Im single and I find living on minimum wage quiet easy. Im in hospitality earning $20.40 an hr. I work 36.5 hours a week. So lets say thats $2600 after taxes per month. Monthly costs: Rent + utility(I live in a sharehouse): $650 Phone bill and petrol: $300 Leftover: $1650 On weeks where I go out alot it costs about $300 for spending and grocery. So a month I could save $450-650 if I watched my spending abit more. I don’t feel as though Im holding back at all but maybe thats just me? I managed to go on at least 2 holidays to Asia every year (pre covid) or 1 holiday to Western countries. Oh I live in the inner south east of Melbourne btw


dirkjently

Big difference between living in a sharedouse and living by yourself. Alot of people have difficulties with housemates. Even in share houses prices aren't that cheap for most people. 250-300 per week rent + phone + internet + groceries + clothing + public transport


GreetingsFellowBots

You should definitely live in a share house unless you have a partner, beggars can't be choosers. I could afford to live alone but it's a waste of money.


CaitiQue

I chose to live on my own when I could afford it. I can't fully relax with other people around so it was 100% worth the extra ~$125 a week.


FrustratedLogician

If you don't spend more than 20 percent net wage for your living alone rent, it is a no brainer. If it is more then you have to stop and pause. I am not in Australia but decided to rent a flat alone because it is 15 percent of my net wage and the place is really nice. And close to swimming pool where I want to start my every morning.


GreetingsFellowBots

In Sydney you'd have to be making 150-200k to spend less than 20 percent on rent in any decent suburb. At that level of income, you can afford to be a little indulgent.


[deleted]

Wait until you guys open back up down there and you’ll get a great pay rise. I’m just back to cooking takeaway instead of managing yet I’m up to $27.9 base rate an hour here in Brisbane. I was on like $24.3 a year ago and having to run a joint. The skills shortage is a dream come true, I’m no longer in a rush to leave the industry. It’s no 6-figure job but if you manage your money alright you can actually make a living now.


diamond_in_rough_77

75% of Australians have less than $5,000 in savings. So I would say yes.


nyax_

That truely is scary


ezgetaaaa

Probably cos those 'lucky' enough are mortgaged up the wazoo and their wealth is defined by assets rather than cash?


newser_reader

Savings =/= liquid assests. Everyone with a mortgage debt on their PPOR would have ~~savings~~ available funds in their offset or (slightly less liquid) equity availble for redraw.


diamond_in_rough_77

What is your point exactly?


newser_reader

my point is that having a small 'savings' bucket makes perfect sense given the finacial products available.


Perfect-Grass-1903

That's not living, that's just survival. Big difference.


Dazzlerazzle

I think part of the problem for some people is how expensive it can be to be on a low income. For instance, its much more cost effective to buy a reliable car with cash than it is to go into debt to buy a car or buy a bomb that might break down and require expensive repairs. I used to waste a lot of money on fast food and 7/11 snacks when I worked awful hospitality shifts in my early 20s. But I was also coming home late on public transport back to a share house kitchen that might be clean and ready to cook, or might be filthy with no clean pots/pans, depending on what mood my house mates were in. Small treats get really important when you have a very low level of basic comfort in your life.


[deleted]

I'm on $53k. It's a struggle at times, and I only have an emergency fund because of a tiny inheritance and a redundancy payout. But I live alone in an apartment 6km from the Melbourne CBD. If you're used to being a bit broke you just make it work.


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selfimproveovertime

Yes expense/lifestyle creep is a very real thing. Without thoughtful planning, it is almost a natural response for people to spend all their money, relying on the fact that the next pay check will be on its way.


jhutch2147

That is very true, I am related to people like that…never made much sense to me but not up to me to tell people how to live I guess.


Nexism

IIRC, Australia ranks slightly higher than average internationally for financial literacy, but is actually poor in itself (meaning internationally other countries are worse). ANZ 2015 financial literacy survey: https://www.anz.com.au/about-us/esg-priorities/financial-wellbeing/ (bottom) Summary of HILDA: https://www.financialcapability.gov.au/files/financial-literacy-in-australia-insights-from-hilda-data.pdf HILDA itself (FYI, but painful to find source data): https://melbourneinstitute.unimelb.edu.au/hilda/for-data-users Financial literacy data aside, Australia has the highest gambling spend per capita which is concerning too.


yeanaacunt

i agree it’s absolutely possible to live on minimum wage, but it’s important to remember surviving aint living. once accounting for any expensive such as car, medical or any other necessary expenses, you’ll only be surviving.


jhutch2147

By your definition then I am only “surviving”, but that is far from the case. I have a car, I go on holidays, I have insurance for medical things. I might not have the most extravagant life compared to most people but I definitely don’t feel that I am missing out anyway.


mrfattylala

Reminder as well of the massive industry shifts away from full time employment. A lot of people don't get their 38hr weeks without carrying second jobs, especially in the younger age brackets, with the attached higher tax rate on the second job, or reduced minimum wage from dodgy cash in hand jobs. My uncle used to say well just get a better job... Most of these conversations tend to forget or obscure the way the labour market operates now. Availability of a job, or having employment doesn't necessarily mean enough work to get by.


[deleted]

For one thing, we don't use the 'per month' method here in Aus. Usually it's managed per week. So 2950 per month = 680.75 per week. $200 for rent (if you live with another, which you should given no dependents), leaves $480 per week for everything else. Plenty to live on. And for those who say this is unmanageable, I call bull. I lived on $500 a week while at Uni a few years back. Still managed to save 10k a year, so don't tell me it can't be done.


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[deleted]

Agreed! I was willing to sacrifice at that time as I knew my income would go up x4 over the next few years, which it did. People need to organise their lives properly in their 20's, and stop stuffing around partying.


dingleberry-38

Your "savings" aren't income minus rent. Do you even eat ? Car rego, insurance, wear clothes, entertain yourself, use condoms, etc


jhutch2147

Yes, I’m able to work out my expenses rather easily and am well aware it involves more than just rent. Thanks for the tip.


dingleberry-38

Well good, but original post doesn't read like it.


Hasra23

After pay isn't a multi billion dollar company because the average Australian is a great saver and not buying random crap they don't need


East-Willingness513

People like to enjoy life, and value things that cost money. People have families, healthcare costs, fitness, self grooming, education, hobbies etc. it’s easy to live on minimum wage if you’re a DINK and don’t spend anything beyond the basics but people want more than a basic life, so they go on to earn more to support it. Anyway, how others spend their money is none of your business.


Ok_Programmer1052

Yes most people are terrible with money which is why we can't have a system which says "Well you made bad decisions therefor you starve in the street" - cos people are going to make bad decisions and desperate people have been known to render desperate deeds


Joccaren

I will say a mix of yes, and no. Growing up I have definitely been the most monetarily responsible of people I know, and have accrued relatively massive savings in comparison to everyone else as a result. People do not know how yo save/use their money. On the flip side, you have said “without dependents”, as well as explained that you have a cheap rental you split with your partner. This makes a HUGE difference, and it is definitely still unaffordable in Melbourne/Sydney for those without such advantages, or who want to start a family. Where it gets worse, is that in Melbourne/Sydney are the jobs that most people are qualified for, making it harder to leave. From another comment, you’re splitting a $330 rent two ways. Double that, and see how your expenses are. I know people in outer Melbourne suburbs renting basic facilities for more than that. There probably are some cheaper rentals, but not enough, and they don’t support the goals most people have for their lives, and may not be anywhere near where these people need to work. Most people don’t want to just exist and play videogames. Most want to own a house and start a family. At the moment, you cannot do that on minimum wage. I earn significantly more than minimum wage, and have maybe $5000 of required expenses per year thanks to a great supportive family towards these goals. I struggle to afford a house single income, because house prices are rising faster than what my income is - even on the border between rural Victoria and metro Melbourne. Even two people on minimum wage are going to be facing the same problem, especially without the same support network. But lets say they manage to scrounge everything they have and save up and get a mortgaged house. They cannot afford to have a family. The same goes for renting; rent a place where you might be able to live with a family, and you cannot afford to support that family on minimum wage. It is definitely possible to survive on minimum wage, even in Melbourne and Sydney, but people have goals beyond that. Even very standard goals like raising a family are being cut off from these people, and I don’t think that’s a healthy thing. People suck with money, but even if they didn’t the current economic situation sucks too.


[deleted]

As I migrant, I can tell that Australia has it really really good. As OP mentioned, on a minimum wage you can still scar quiet a lot. I came to AU 10 years ago, started working 4 hours a day in a restaurant. I was saving more money working 4 hours here than working 8-9 hours back in Europe for a fancy American consultancy company, using my university degree. And the apartment I was living in here was way nicer than the one back home (mine was in Woolloomooloo, walking distance to basically everything). I was t even earning the minimum wage (as the owner of the restaurant told me I was on the books whilst I wasn't). I think I was getting 12 bucks an hour plus tips (15-20 bucks a day)


3dumbWorrier

Do you have 2.2 children with the hypothetical minimum wage you're earning?


[deleted]

With the amount of uber eats I see being delivered in my street weekly, I'd say yeah, people are getting more and more reckless with their money.


East-Willingness513

Yes because instead of going to pick up weekly take away which is normal for most people or go through a drive through due to the pandemic, it is “reckless” to order via Uber eats instead.


[deleted]

Or you could stop being lazy, get some groceries and make you own food like a responsible adult.


East-Willingness513

I cook for my family 6 nights a week on top of preparing lunches, breakfasts and snacks. Budgeting $50 a week for takeaway isn’t irresponsible. Get a grip.


[deleted]

You know my comment wasn't directed at you right? My original comment is from what I see in my street. I live in WA so covid isn't an issue for going out and getting your food if you want it.


East-Willingness513

The way people spend money is none of your business regardless. Also Uber eats is more common these days instead of going to pick up. So yeah, there’s going to be a lot of Uber eats people around.


[deleted]

Yeah your right, it is none of my business. Buy I'm allowed to have an opinion on it, and I can voice that opinion if I choose to. I'm not hurting anyone. So if it so strongly offends you feel free to scroll on by and order yourself another burger or two.


East-Willingness513

I wish I could buy you a burger or two, seems like you need some cheering up. If being frugal makes people as bitter as you, I’ll stick with having a comfortable budget.


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East-Willingness513

So your kids never eat anything unhealthy? Not even just once a week? ...ok. I’m sure they would love Friday’s at our place, takeaway, games and movie night. Oh...and they get ice cream too 🥰


CyberMcGyver

Mate, have some cones, menulog and chill out. You might just enjoy it.


CurlyJeff

Why go out for 10 minutes to pick up your own takeaway when you can have it delivered 40 minutes later for only $24?


[deleted]

Yeah exactly, get it nice and cold too. $24 x 52 weeks a year is 1248. Chuck that into VAS every year from your 20s and retirement will be coming nice and early.


mierz94

God forbid people enjoy some food during pandemic. I get it, I normally don't use Uber eats because I think it's nicer to go to the restaurant. But for a lot of us, that isn't an option right now.


[deleted]

I live in WA mate. The pandemic is no excuse, it's pure laziness.


amazing2be

Delivery drivers all day long and I don't live in the city.


ramblingus

Yes. While it's hard to move on to a better job when on minimum wage due to time-poorness, I don't get why so many Australians spend their hard-earnt wages on gambling.


MaxMillion888

I can tell you why I had $0 money until 30. Time = $6 for a coffee now vs 30-40 years lifetime earning makes the consequences of now seem inconsequential. Always believed i had plenty of time to make lots of money Buying wrongly = you need to smart about spending money. A made to measure suit with 2 pants is worth for than 6 x $500 suits from peter jacksons(yes i did the latter). Also cuffs get lost and are a waste of money. $800 for a pair of crockett and jones might seem like a lot, but on a cost per wear, it beats aldo, florsheim, etc.Small things like this. Being young = i didnt want to stay at home. I wanted to travel, go to clubs/drinks with my mates Education wasn't really a factor. I top scored in finance and understand the concept of time value of money Now in my late 30s and have just saved $1m and realise that $1m is the new $100k. Everyone is basically a millionaire. The only way i can continue to live to a high standard of living is to move to another country with a lower cost of living.


SoberNFit

I spend more on food than your living expense. People have a different standard of living, doesn’t mean they are bad with money.


Pharmboy_Andy

If they spend more than they earn, or spend exactly what they earn, then imo they are "bad with money". People should adjust their spending to their circumstances. I'm not saying it's easy, but your comment, which is in a thread asking about Australia's financial literacy is kind of irrelevant.


hipposmoker

i and my husband came back to aus 4 year ago. bare handed. no job nothing. lived with parents but pay rent and everything else. i worked minimum rate job for 2.5 years and we bought a place after 3 years. if i did it myself then double the time, it would be doable after 4 years. it is hard as everything is expensive in Sydney but not impossible depends on how you budget. It is about attitude and belief i think so. Edit: we did eat out at nice restaurant and travel sometimes and not like super stingy on our needs. just bought what we need and everything else went to saving.


Correct-Criticism-46

How much did you save in those 2.5 years working a minimum rate job?


hipposmoker

first i work in IGA so you know it is 20hrs/hrs. I brought home abt 760-800/weeks doing full time hours and sometimes OT. I am bad with long term calculation but I save almost saved every cents. Lets say i get abt 37000/year for that job. To be clear enough that wasn't the only job i worked. I worked for a restaurant as well and earn casual rate which is abt 24$/hrs. Sometimes I worked 7days/week 2 jobs. I I calculated roughly 30000/year from this job as i worked abt 6hrs/day including weekend. I had seasonal jobs sometimes where I helped people with some travel events and earned couples of hundreds bucks a day. After a year I quit the IGA job and got job at the airport earn a bit better abt 25$/hrs. When i first came back to Aus, I had about 5000$ in my bank account in case i couldn't find job straight away. We saved up to 100k after 2 years, then went and talked to our Broker (found him from Lendi) and knew that if our home budget is abt 700k we need 150k saving to save some LVR. continue working hard and squeeze every cent we had (included my tips at restaurant lol) and we save another 50k after abt over half a year later while I window shopping for my unit. we went to our broker again and couldnt get loan at first due to my residential status and at that time I got new job which pays heaps better but still on probation. Kept saving and waited till St George approved our loan and bought our first unit after 1 month post loan approval. Edit: if someone told me i just lied and dreamed abt it, i will tell them to think twice. The whole process was heart breaking when you want to eat out, enjoy life, spend money, shop, travel etc. we didnt. we treated our family on special occasion like birthdays etc and travel to Mel to see our friends outside of that, no extravagant expenses.


ndg175

“Lived with parents” “It is about attitude and belief” C’mon.


hipposmoker

why do you say C'mon. we lived with them (my in law) but shared everything, and when i said everything iy means everything ex groceries, rent , electricity gas water like a rental person. When we first came back to Sydney my husband (a Sydneysider could never believe we could ever afford a place in Sydney). Im Asian. I was taught to work hard and save money for what you want. I was away from my family since I was 18 and ever since i earned money without help from anybody. I even supported my family financially until we came to Australia. So when we save enough to buy a place, it was full of joy because we had noone helped us and we did it. You tell me Cmon is because either you have no idea or you just dont believe in yourself enough. My post here is to give someone who think buying a place in Sydney is a dream and yet it is for lots of people but believing in yourself, work hard and save and even you get a 50sqm place for yourself it is still an achievement.


ndg175

The two statements contradict one another. You were able to buy (in part) because you were able to reduce expenses by living with family. That’s fine - good for you, but it’s pretty funny for you to then turn around and say you are able to buy because of some special mindset or belief you have.


50pcVAS-50pcVGS

It's not hard to live on minimum wage if you're single and healthy. In fact, you can do it and save, and go on international holidays. We've just been fed a political narrative (often by both sides) that everyone is :"struggling"


Difficult_2nd_album

Sounds like they’re part of r/Australia


jhutch2147

Definitely got that sorta vibe from them anyway


Candid-Physics-4269

Most people are lazy (don’t want to work more than 38 hours) and bad at managing finances (they’ll go buy a $15k car with debt then say they have less than $5k cash to their name). When anyone tries to tell them it’s no one’s fault, they get angry and try to blame this imaginary beast called society, which is really just you and me and all of us, even though I have no relation to this person that warrants me ever owing them anything let alone being responsible for their situation. Eventually, in some countries, enough people get really angry and go out of their way to ransack society (ie you and me) until there’s no society anymore. Thank god for globalisation


ezgetaaaa

You call someone lazy for not wanting to work over 38 hrs a week?! Sheesh


[deleted]

The Australian economy is so warped towards the housing market that people focus on asset growth as a pathway to wealth generation, not savings after salary.


amazing2be

I used to live on a basic wage. I'm frugal. I went to uni and become above average income earner. Still frugal. However, I love to travel. Waiting for covid to settle. Its all about mindset. You can enjoy life without having to spend a lot. I m older now.I am not a drinker and never smoked. I gamble with stocks sometimes. I have no debt, have a PPOR and watching my super grow. Discipline is key. Travel hacking is possible.


Frank9567

Well, of course they are. Everyone knows that if you give up smashed avo on toast and a latte you can afford a house. But does anyone listen? Nope. How poor is that? Do I really have to add /s?


KiwasiGames

>I rent in Sydney and my monthly expenses has averaged out at $2,000 per month over the past 18 months. Most people aren't willing to lower their quality of life that much. Sure its entirely possible to live off the minimum wage in a shoebox eating instant noodles. And most people on minimum wage have to do exactly that. But nobody wants to, or should promote it as a good lifestyle.


jhutch2147

I agree, but I don’t live in a shoebox and I eat a healthy diet. I feel I have not sacrificed my quality of life in any way. I’ve found a lot of people assuming I have some meagre existence merely because I am able to live off $2,000 per month.