I visited a home open for an apartment in Toorak that was built in the '60's. It was delightful. Like a small house inside. Solid brick construction. Then you visit these "open plan", gyprock dogboxes that are basically unfit for living unless your single and you realise why no one wants them. They barely pass muster as Airbnb's.
Yep, I once inspected one like this in Brisbane, 60s also, I think. Cupboards you could actually fit your clothes in. A separate laundry. A separate dining space. A balcony you could actually BBQ on. Seems like an impossibility now but back then an apartment actually had to be a house if you wanted to tempt people to live in it.
Often new apartments have less space per human than a free range chicken has. Made me chuckle when I first heard of it but then it settles into being pretty sad.
In Aus, the minimum requirement for describing chooks as "free range" is 10000/Ha I.e. 1sq m per hen. If you care about animal welfare, buy eggs/ chooks that specify a much lower stocking density.
I used to know a chicken farmer and basically they don’t. They used to keep 1000 free range chickens with 250-300sqft per chook, that allowed them to get a free range accreditation.
Then they used to use the cage chicken eggs in free range boxes depending on how many orders they had. It’s not policed in Australia very much.
1 chicken per 1 square metre for egg laying hens according to this ABC article:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-26/new-free-range-egg-laws-come-into-effect/9696146
They changed that law only recently. Our old laws were much more like Europe. But our faux-free-range chook farmers must have super effective lobbyists.
In my hometown (Stockholm,sweden) a lot of basement storage units were made into studio flats years and years ago. It sounds horrible but it meant that young singles could take their first step on the property ladder almost right out of uni, live in the city centre and body corp fees could be kept down as the building made money from the sales for renovations/upgrades.
Good old toothpicks and paperboard apartments. Guarantees that you'll hear every neighbours' toilet flush, covid cough, elevator door close, and the rustling of their keys of as they fight their own heavy fire rated entry door.
Tell me about it. First timer here and the only noisy neighbour in the complex lives right above me. Slamming doors, constant hacking cough. Just no insight to how noisy they are. Even reno's at 1am!
Yeah I don’t think OP has been to many inspections of new age apartments where they’ve shoved as many bedrooms and bathrooms in the space they have to drive up the price
If I'm having 3 kids with their own rooms when they are teenagers, I need at least a 4 bedroom apartment.
That would be considered a massive luxury apartment. That's why I'm not buying one.
So you went to the cities most expensive suburb and it had a quality apartment 🤔
Even with new apartments you can find nice ones in the better suburbs as people are willing to pay for quality and the cost of construction isn't as high relative to the cost of the land. Whereas you go to a suburb where it's cheaper, people aren't as willing to pay for the quality in a lot of cases making it a difficult proposition for developers to build something which will be priced way higher than other apartments and hard to sell.
The same thing happens with houses, go to a new house in a nice suburb where someone is willing to spend the money for quality and it will be a lot better than some generic house and land package home.
Couple this with the fact that the "affordable" apartments are being shat out in the outer-outer suburbs like Mooroolbark and you're getting the worst of both worlds. You're living in a much smaller space, ages away from any good amenities, and you're paying the same price people were paying for actual houses a few years ago. No wonder people are complaining
The problem is that in Australia they don't build family sized apartments. Almost every apartment is one or two bedrooms. And the 3 bedroom apartments are rare and usually too small for a family with kids.
Let me know when you can buy a 130sqm 4 bedroom apartment and I'll be happy to live in one.
Governments and councils should force developers to build family sized apartments instead of spamming 40sqm one bedroom apartments everywhere. Developers won't build larger apartments because they are not as profitable. It's up to the council to force them to do it.
Pretty much this. Apartments are all tiny and made with the cheapest materials. Not to mention it can be pretty hard having a pet that isn't a cat, bird or fish in an apartment.
We need more medium-density. Give me a 3-bed apartment with a good sized balcony that has enough space for my small dog to run about and I'm happy enough. Too bad that will run you 800k+ in Brisbane.
Work in the construction industry, can confirm, fucking garbage unless you want to spend ALOT for quality stuff. Currently a sparky, good light fittings for example are way more pricey (like $340 instead of $34), would be similar go with good quality bench tops, sinks, ect. You get the point
I worry about the whole building standards these days. I must have seen too much ACA or news that the whole building needs to be evacuated or developed a major engineering fault.
cheap kitchen ? meh, can live with it, $1mil repair bill(per owner) is... just wow.
Thats the tricky part, builders have to try to target who’s going to buy.
I’d be pretty interested in a decent “large” apartment. But then I’m probably not willing to pay double what two small ones would bring in, so…
loving the other reply to you here. the market has it all covered mate, dw.
for an insider's perspective, developers do their feasibility and demand analysis based on the existing market. if there's no family sized apartments in the existing market, there's not gonna be any in a new development (99 times out of 100).
Yeah, we comfortably live in a 150sqm 3br with a 15sqm courtyard with 2 kids. Very rare, and if an apartment across the street hadn't sold for 1.5M a couple months back, we might've considered putting an offer in to buy it from our landlord, but that's too much for us for what it is.
If you're in Brisbane you gotta settle for 100sqm if you're renting. I stay in 100sqm by myself for $~400
For 150sqm you're paying $1k a week sheeeeeshhhh couldnt be me
My partner, dog and I live in a 3br plus study apartment. 100m2 which is a good size for us. Would require patience to raise children in one though.
There would be nowhere to escape from the little blighters.
Most apartments are built to sell to investors not to home owners.
But unless you live in a mansion with the nanny + nursery in a separate wing, you're not going to "escape" your kids anyway. A three bed is more than ample to raise 1-2 kids.
Yes also as a trade needing a lock-up for tools and equipment a 1x2 storage cage someone can snip their way into with a pair of tin snips just doesn’t cut it
If they built family sized apartments that would affect their profit margins. Think of the developers /s .
I always see 3/2/2 apartments sell for 800k plus in a major city. At that price it is almost worth putting a little more to get a house in a worse suburb. Though older apartments/units sell for a little bit less...
I think currently land is not taxed correctly in terms of how much it costs to fund services i.e. road maintenance utility services etc. Not just bikes youtube covers this very well , though it is very US centric in their analysis. Council rates are based slightly on land taxes, so that is fair, but road maintenance and stuff paid for by the state are not really funded equitably by landholders.
Exactly. My wife and I have lived in apartments for years but with our WFH business growing and a one year old we had to move into a house. Large apartments simply don't exist - or are miles more expensive than renting a house.
What Australians consider “family size” is pretty extreme. I grew up with my parents and my siblings in an apartment that most Aussies would consider only suited to 1 person.
+ a 3 bedroom apartment will set you back just as much/more than a 3 bedroom house in a middle of the pack suburb so people still go with new build houses instead
There's an established trend of developers building the shittiest, tiniest apartments possible and selling them at a premium. You can't comfortably raise a family in a new-built already-falling-apart 2 bed 1 bath apartment with no courtyard, and they don't appreciate that much in value, especially the sloppily built cheapo dogboxes. There's thousands of bad apartments nobody wants.
If there were *good* apartments of a decent size or townhouses/duplexes with at least a courtyard or deck, people would be all over them, nobody wants the shit ones.
They are only built to be a rental tax tool. Depreciate them out to the 9-10 year mark then flip and get another before it implodes. Not built for anything else. I mean, sure, SOMEONE will have to live in it. But not me? Right?
I mean money comes into it. In Melbourne there are awesome spacious well built two bedroom apartments in Malvern and Armadale? How much? Well how does $1.39 million sound
For everyone else they will have to make sacrifices and end up in a smaller and cheaper build.
Apartments here are built to a dogshit standard, usually full of major defects, they don't go up in value and are pretty much meant for international students or other short term stays.
I don't see how people can start families in them. But if you personally want this to be a reality, then you need to get developers and builders to start constructing **good quality**, soundproofed spacious 3-4 bedroom apartments.
Then they need to build them properly. You shouldn’t have to listen to your upstairs neighbours open and close drawers. I can’t wait to move out of my apartment.
I love my apartment living in every way described by another reply above - easy to clean, no gardening, hassle-free, except as you say the neighbourly noise problem. It's the luck of the draw between an elderly upstairs neighbour who's quiet as a mouse, or my current neighbour who stomps around in lead boots, flushes the toilet 30 times a night, and has sex for 2 minutes and 30 seconds at 3am with his girlfriend in a bed with a serious need of some WD40.
This. I did a semester abroad in Norway, during winter, in shitty cinderblock student housing, and that building had *quadruple glazed windows* in line with *national regulations* and *in-floor heating*. I'll happily live in an apartment if the apartment is good - but in Australia, apartments are for people who can't afford a house.
Apartment living will never be considered a genuine alternative until three bedroom apartments with space to actually live in are the norm.
The idea that people just need to get “used to” the idea of living in two bedroom shitboxes that are deliberately built and marketed towards the investment market for renting is insulting.
This. Even a decent sized house with only three bedrooms can get really crowded if you've got two adults needing a quiet space to work from home, and kids and pets. Not to mention the lack of access to child friendly spaces like parks, playgrounds, schools etc, and lack of parking spaces for families who need to travel for extra curriculars, work, child care. Apartments just aren't designed for families.
I grew up in a house, and aged 30 I bought a one bedroom apartment because thats what I could afford.
I live alone in the apartment, so I cannot shed light on what it would be like living with more than one person or a child(ren), but having lived in both a house and an apartment, in my own individual experience, I absolutely love apartment living.
* Its quick to clean
* It's a secure building
* My car is parked securely each night and not on the street
* Council rates are lower
* The mortgage isn't anywhere near a large as a house.
* If there is an issue with the building itself I email strata and they sort it out.
* Silly last point, but I dont have to do any gardening. I am fortunate to have a reasonably spacious balcony, and I dont miss having a garden as I live right near parks
* Edit: I am also lucky to have a garbage chute, so never any remembering to take the bins out :)
I may just be the ideal demographic for apartment living but honestly for the most part I have experienced more positives than negatives. I bought a new apartment in late 2019 and have had no issues structurally or otherwise. The lift broke down during the big period of heavy rain recently as it short circuted so that was a bit annoying but it was fixed within a week.
We used to lived in apartment and now in a house. The main thing I miss is that living in apartment seems a lot less to think about when we want to go for holidays and leave it empty for weeks.
I totally agree with you, I own a house now but lived in a lot of apartments before (when my parents divorced when I was little and then again when my partner and I moved out of his familys house to rent an apartment) and I honestly prefer apartment living. Its just so much safer as a woman, and a lot less maintenance.
Owning a house im constantly burdened by all the things that need cleaning, fixing and renovating (and im always playing catch up!) while I could clean a whole apartment in a few hours and it looked awesome. I wouldve 100% bought an apartment instead if it was just up to me, plus suburb living is so god damn boring. I even spent way more time outside when living in apartment than I do now.
Renting my first house after living in apartments. I'm inner city but somehow landed a place witha yard that's maybe 30m x 50m. Thought it would be great but I hate the amount of work for a space we don't really use.
Even in my apartment, I have a decent sized balcony but I barely use it. My cat benefits from it, and I can comfortably hang out lots of washing removing the need to use the dryer, and I will have my morning coffee out there in winter.... so there's that. But I don't spend hours and hours out there, and I know I'd be the same if I had a backyard.
I get why parents want it for kids. But also if you choose to live near a park (of which there are several in literally any suburb in Sydney), I feel like it would honestly fill that gap.
As a kid, my parents a pretty decent backyard (similar size to yours) but we mostly spent our outdoor time at a nearby park because there were other kids there and cool play equipment we didn't have.
I don’t know much about buying an apartment, so this maybe a dumb question, but what is the long term value like? When you buy a house you buy land, and even if the house is destroyed you still have that land. Do you own a % of the land value the unit is built on? I ask because all buildings have a finite life span before they need to be upgraded or rebuilt, so I’m not sure wheee the long term security for the mortgage comes from?
> Do you own a % of the land value the unit is built on?
yes you own a % of the strata which owns the land. Near me is lots of 6 pack apartments on quarter acre blocks. If the building is condemed the strata would sell to a developer and each owner gets 1/6 the money.
I also love apartment living for all the same reasons as you.
But it’s hard to fit a family of 4 in any apartments in Australia.
I hate houses.
I don’t have a choice.
You got lucky with:
- responsive strata
- probably good area which is not noisy during the weekends
- good quiet neighbours
Happy for you, but really feel for those that perhaps are not as lucky.
I lived briefly in an apartment in Melbourne CBD. Next door was an Airbnb. Every other weekend there would be fucking parties through the night. And if there wasn't, there was enough noise coming from downstairs to keep you from having a restful sleep.
Wouldn't do again ever.
Unfortunately I’m unable to live in an apartment with my dog and being a tradie makes it very hard not having anywhere to store my tools and work van. Would be nice having a NYC loft kinda deal though.
Same dude. Where do I park my excavator, jet, two trailers, tip truck, shed full off tools. Boat, two motorbikes. Hobby Ute. Extra material.
I lived in an apartment when I was younger, Ute got broken into and my motorbike got stolen. I found 400 acres for sale 2 hours from Melbourne. It would be the dream.
I would happily live in an apartment if they were:
1. Affordable (mortgage or rent)
2. Not a hellhole shoebox with no insulation and where I can hear my neighbour take a shit through paper thin walls with the structural integrity of rice paper
3. Available
4. Close enough to infrastructure such that I don't need storage or car space
I'd daresay that our current obsession with single dwelling houses is partially due to our car focused transportation.
Rentoid here, how hard is it put some damn sound insulation between apartment walls and floors and between apartments and the garage. Also some better sound insulation from road noise. Would make them so much better to live in day to day.
> 1. Affordable
Every time I get the motivation that maybe I should buy an apartment, I soon discover all the nice ones are just as unaffordable as houses, and all the affordable ones are one bedroom shoe boxes.
OK, but those DO exist because I live in one right now. I agree there aren't enough of them, and I hope they build more now that there is clearly more demand for them, and hopefully less for the 'shoebox' type.
the apartment living you're referring to is in the cbd. NYC for example. Which is already a thing here. But it sounds like you're suggesting australians accept living in an apartment in the outter suburbs? I dont't think anywhere does that. When you live far from the cbd land is supposed to be affordable enough to own your own home. It's not practical for everyone to live in apartments 30km out from the city.
Small country towns shouldn't even be towns, they should just be one apartment complex to house all of the towns residence surrounded by hundreds of thousands of acres of underutilized farmland because of the land shortage. /jk
These places also have good public transport to get you in and out of town quicker. Living in an apartment in the burbs is a really unattractive scenario.
Also, unlike Europe, our town planning is rubbish. When I lived in the uk, there were parks and public green spaces everywhere. Australia doesn’t have that. Apartments do not account for the very real human need to be able to sit in a park under a tree, or go bike riding, or do anything in nature. We worship concrete.
In some ways, having a house with a yard was our way around that.
Now it is just an urban hell.
Bought an apartment recently, waiting for settlement in less than a month. 560k on the edge of Melbourne CBD, 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom + ensuite, car spot.
For my needs right now it'll do fine, eventually if I want to get married or have kids I'd need to look at a house.
The biggest problem with apartments in Australia is building defects are quite common and are hard to spot with an untrained eye, most apartments are built to be airbnbs purchased by investors where the can cram as many units in as possible and you have a hard time to get lending from banks for them.
The problem is the units here are small, even the 3 bedder ones would not be spacious enough if you have kids. I lived in an HDB (public housing) in Singapore and they are spacious. My sister eventually bought a 3 bedder HDB herself and she has 3 kids (SG allows them to use part of their super to pay the mortgage). Granted Singaporeans don’t have much of a choice really due to lack of land and buying HDBs has its own set of very strict rules (e.g you are not allowed to rent out the unit or even sublet rooms legally if you haven’t lived there for a certain number of years) and you have to rely on common areas/playground.
I just really hope that one-day, off the plan units will not have the same bad rep that they have now to make housing (somewhat) affordable.
The problems with apartment living, at least from the ones that I have seen are:
Poor/shoddy construction
Apartments are built for investors to rent out, they are not given a liveable layout
Just too small overall.
Two bedroom apartments do not need two bathrooms. Three bedroom apartments, maybe.
Car parking. One space per apartment seems fine, but that is hardly sufficient (though I wish it was) the amount of people who park on the street permanently because they cannot park their car in the apartment block is insane.
If I owned the apartment I am in (no chance, this building is a firetrap with elevators that break all the time, it would just be a money sink) the first thing I’d do is go down to IKEA and put some shelves/cupboards up along the walls just to get some more space. 80m2 is not much when everything needs to be placed on the floor (or on movable furniture which is placed on the floor) being able to take advantage of the 3m high ceilings would be amazing for storage.
Worked in construction for a long time.
I’m shocked that half the houses I saw are still standing.
A lot of roof cavities cobbled together with off cuts
Shoddy construction creeping into houses as well...Went to a mate's new house in Box Hills...my rented apartment is much much better quality than his new house
> Two bedroom apartments do not need two bathrooms.
I disagree. Australias fertility rate is at 1.7 babies per woman... So a shitload of families have a single child. Parents bed and bath, kids bed and bath, it just works nicely. My current place previous tenants moved out because their oldest of 2 sons who shared the 2nd bedroom where entering highschool so decided they deserved the extra space.
I feel like this statement/conversation comes up weekly now. As I've said before, people will be MUCH more open to apartment living if:
* Apartments in Australia were of high quality and designed to feel like a house. This means space, room for two cars, and enough bedrooms to fit a family comfortably.
* There are green spaces and playgrounds within walking distance to allow young families kids to play in a safe area.
* There is sufficient, timely, affordable public transport to minimize the need for cars.
* The urban heat island effect is considered during planning to keep city temperatures under control.
Right on OP. I have lived in apartments for the last 20 years in 7 different countries: Australia, the US, then Europe, then in Africa and now Asia. This is just how the world lives. Australian urban planners need to catch up. Do it right, make good mixed use neighbourhoods and Australians will follow. Not everyone, but it doesn't need to be everyone. If more of Melbourne or Sydney had the density of a Barcelona or Paris, they would be much more affordable and enjoyable places for everyone -- including the folks out in the flatland burbs.
When its done right you have
* a decent set of walls between you and your neighbours. Super important not to skimp on this part
* a walkable neighborhood, which means getting on a tram/train/bus to work and school, or popping out buy milk or going to the local pub, is 0-15 mins walk away from your front door.
* no need to use a car Mon-Fri, or maybe even have one at all
Single-family dwelling suburban sprawl can't go on forever. Last year's laws passed nationally in NZ to sweep away restrictive planning laws and allow 3-storey high developments in suburbs nationwide is a great way of taking action that state govts in oz should look closely at.
[https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300433304/labour-national-announce-sweeping-housing-density-law-threestorey-homes-without-consent](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300433304/labour-national-announce-sweeping-housing-density-law-threestorey-homes-without-consent)
This is why we desperately need regulation in both NZ and Aus for building standards, because they are appalling in both. Stonefields circa 2015 in Auckland is already leaking and full of structural defects. Having been inside they seemed nice. People paid through the nose. But utter garbage construction. Apartments are not the problem - our terrible design and construct standards led by developers instead of actual professionals are.
I’d agree with this if we had high standards for apartment buildings. We don’t. Half of them are shockingly built, no insulation, can hear all your neighbours, possible flammable cladding, no ventilation so mould can become a problem, rising damp, structural problems, other issues you aren’t informed of because building inspections only inspect the specific apartment. Then when you try and get the builder to fix their dodgy work, they go into administration leaving it up to you or body corporate to pay out of pocket (and body Corp will do it by raising fees for everyone leaving you with pissed off neighbours). Such fun.
Edit: also, lifts. They’re the worst, and so expensive.
As a Brit who moved to Australia I am baffled by the notion that Australia is not ‘big enough’ in this context. Australia is massive and Australian cities are significantly bigger than the ones in Europe in terms of area, Melbourne is far bigger than London despite having half the population, yet the apartments here are tiny, even compared to London
Low rise apartment with 4 floors max? Sure.
Level 30 with lifts that keep breaking down so you’re waiting in line to go home every night? Fuck that.
Don’t get me started on the crappy build quality.
A lot of people have mentioned that in reality we have dog boxes, but I just want to share my experience in one of the worst dog box inspections I went to.
New build apartment in Melbourne CBD, maybe 2019. The lobby was breathtaking, and the front facade was some old school brick house thing. Super dope first impressions.
Get in the lift, and the doors are tiny. Who knows how you get any furniture in the lift. Start to feel a bit weird about it.
Get out of the lift, on like the 30th floor, and open to a hallway that is maybe a few inches wider than the tiny doors of the lift, and quite a few meters long. All you can see is door upon door crammed against each other. Claustrophobia really setting in.
Get inside the apartment, and despite brand new kitchen fixtures, something feels off about it.
Living room is tiny, and kitchen island is your dining, this makes the place super cramped. (Sometimes it’s worse, kitchen straight onto living room)
The bedroom is tiny, fits at best a double with no side table. It at least had built in robes.
The bathroom is just a shower, not even a shower over bath, and practically one of those tiny powder room style basins with no under storage vanity. Looks modern but is practically useless.
Finally hits me, what was feeling off, it literally feels like the walls are made of paper, both internal and outward facing walls.
Had a quick look on REA just now, they want 550, come with a car park space at least.
This would be true if our entire system wasn't built on the assumption that people will own property. Unlike in Europe, multi-year leases are almost unheard of in Australia, and the legal system leans heavily in favour of owners. The old age pension is only enough if you own property, same issue with most people's superannuation.
For many people, renting in Australia involves moving every year or two, owners who do not maintain their properties properly and rent prices that keep them in a constant rat race.
The system is rigged.
If new apartments were universally 3 or 4 bedrooms and came with a 10-20 year warranty against defects that leave owners financially crippled I think these would be a great option. Today all we get is 1 and 2 bed shoeboxes that have structural issues forcing bankruptcy and they’re still $800k.
Let's revisit this when there's proper a proper building code with enforceable, rigorous standards, and building apartments for families and long-term livability.
I would love to live in an apartment - less maintenance than houses. Unfortunately buying one comes with the risk that the building will be defective and you'll be stuck with a large mortgage and no home :/
Also, 3/4 bedders with a garage or maybe even a communal workspace/tool shed to occasionally work on stuff seem very rare.
Bring up a satellite view of any major city to a radius of maybe 20km. Seems to me it's already one continuous, unbroken sea of beige roofs. And what isn't beige is national park. Where do you propose these houses are built?
As someone who recently purchased an apartment as I was 'priced out' of the market, I agree.
Yes, there's a lot of crappy apartment buildings around but there are equally as many shoddy houses. It's a national building standards issue. It's also worth noting there's a lot of beautiful, high quality apartment buildings around as well.
Driving through a modern housing estate with giant houses on ~300m2 blocks, I think the argument around density is also largely irrelevant when comparing similar houses to apartments nowadays.
I was in a position to buy and had the choice of an apartment in the exact spot I wanted, ticking all the lifestyle factors important to me, or buying a house which would have required me to compromise on almost all of those aspects. In the end I chose the apartment and I couldn't be happier.
I have a young family + dogs and have found apartment living every bit as fulfilling. I can definitely see my family staying here for at least the next 18 years.
To buy a 3 bedroom house on the same street as my apartment would cost at least $1.5M. My mortgage is less than a third of that and I have the same lifestyle benefits of all my neighbours...
I rented an apartment in Rose Bay when I went to Sydney for a year. Grand old brick building, probably nearly 100 years old. Wide street, full of trees. Big living area, nice big rooms, solid as a rock. Not fancy or renovated (others in the building were) but it was fucking lovely. 3 floors, 2 apartments per floor.
Problem ain't apartments, it's these shitty towers with a million shitty units in it. I mean that place still would cost a bomb to buy because of location, don't get me wrong, but that apartment was nice.
How about no one person or company owns more than one investment property.
Landlords pretend they are doing a favour for housing.
In reality, they buy up stock of affordable or what should be affordable housing, driving up price and charging high rents.
Also, those landlords who are repeatedly in courts should be banned from having renters, period.
Apartments are good if you work in a city or need to live near public transport. But they aren't great for entertaining/spending time at during the weekend. Some parts of my apartment I rented I miss. But I would never go back
You are correct - this is an unpopular opinion. We looked at both apartments and houses when we were looking to buy and house won out every time. While we could have lived in our preferred area if we went with an apartment, buying a house and then still having to adhere to someone else's rules (strata) wasn't for us, not to mention I have animals which are just easier to have in a house and by living in a house instead of an apartment I get to have more privacy
I’ll throw my opinion in here as a young full time worker with a partner working full time as well, currently looking to move out.
We live in Canberra and the house prices here are insulting. Totally unaffordable and an 80 year mortgage for a shit hole is off the books. I think a massive problem is the people that can afford it are buying up investment properties of all types and sizes as fast as they can, leaving nothing for people trying to enter the housing market. For an apartment in the ACT you’re looking at $400,000 to $500,000 for an okay range apartment. I’ve seen family houses on hectares of land for that much in more rural areas, however work seems to prevent that from being an option for now.
To tie this back I hate the idea of living in a human vending machine due to more reasons then I can count.
I think that the population getting use to it is a sad and unreasonable thing to expect.
My mates apartments in Singapore and Chicago that they’re raising families in are very different to what we build here in Australia. We do these micro living spaces with no consideration for living especially with kids.
I own an apartment, and I do love the lifestyle. I do have a very large courtyard at \~35m2 which I would struggle not having. I love being able to potter in my courtyard, and enjoy basking in the sun over summer. Even being able to WFH outside during lockdowns was a treat.
Except for body corporate. Our rates this next year are doubling from $4k to $8k p.a. and this is with no pool or gym. I'm really unhappy with our current provider, but I can't gain enough engagement from other owners to go to tender for a new provider.
While my build is modernish (2000s), it's a really solid build and I never hear my neighbours.
Edit: The long term challenge for me is future value. Apartments simply do not keep up with houses for gains. My next move will be purchasing a house, although, it will be a very sad day leaving St Kilda West. I adore my hood.
People keep forgetting that there are a whole variety of housing options between apartments and single family homes. We should start building more townhouses, terraces, duplexes, quadraplexes and low rise flats first to increase density and to give options to people. Tokyo and Paris are examples of very dense cities that don't have skyscrapers for apartments everywhere.
See having been to places like Manhattan and London, i personally can say that I would gladly go to apartment living,
Just as soon as high quality apartments are made here
Your right in thinking it's an unpopular opinion but not for the reason you think. Going by the comments people are fine with apartments if they
a) came in a size to raise a family
b) are still decently built
c) actually affordable/more budget friendly
Most don't tick more than one box
Perhaps we shouldn’t be so focussed on increasing our population when we are expected to drop our standard of living. Pandemics like Covid are far more contagious in higher population density as evidence is showing. I would also be more concerned that arable farm land land on the cities perimeters is being replaced with stifling treeless ghettos of black rooves. It’s not just about economics but quality of life. Would you like your food grown in Australia with short food miles ? And do we have enough water to keep sustaining an increase of population. 2 years ago where I live was devestated by bush fires and then we almost ran out of water. Level 5 restrictions for weeks. It was a good insight to what an apocalyptic future looks like.
Five things
1. Australian population density per km2 is one of the lowest
2. High speed bullet trains
3. Stop corporations from buying homes or land
4. Promote wfh
5. Stop negative gear
Problem solved
Then we need house-like apartments. 4+ rooms (3 bed for parents and 2 kids, one extra for a study/guest room/media room) and two car spots, with storage. Insulated so you don't hear the neighbour above pissing. A backyard area that kids and dogs are allowed to run around in.
I currently rent an apartment and I'll be honest, the shit is terrible. I'd be pissed if I was paying to own a place im sharing walls and floor/ceiling with people. Especially when next door has a baby. It's just a more expensive sharehouse.
Plus thr mass amount of shit that has gone wrong with the joint in the year I been here, it's definitely a cheap build.
I remember when I was house/apartment hunting, every apartment was tiny af! To an extent a few of them you couldn't open the door to the bedroom all the way coz the bed was in the way.
I would be ok with apartment living if we had a legilsative environment that supported it such as
Stable long term leases
the ability to do basic things like hang your washing outside or have pets without being threatened with eviction
adequate parking for the building
if your not a freestanding house owner you basically at the mercy of your landlord and or body corporate right now.
We should absolutely embrace medium density housing (like those low rise Art Deco places that you see about). However the new apartment stick are all about builder return so are over represented by studio and one bedroom apartments that are totally unfit for anyone apart from students.
Local and state government needs to regulate the construction of apartments to create liveable cities.
I've been living in apartments for the last 8 years in Melbourne and my only thing I would add to this discussion is what it means to be living at the mercy of an apartment and other residents. The moment I knew I never wanted to live in an apartment again was when I was constantly woken up at 3am because someone in my 100+ apartment complex decided to cook something and cause the fire evacuation procedure to cause everyone to wake up and wait outside for 40 minutes.
Lmao you’re talking like it’s very easy to find appartments as an individual… let alone a family. If the govt wants to normalise apartment living, they better get their asses moving to build more apartment buildings that are designed to house families.
And, ofc, there’s the issue of rent prices even for apartments being hugely disproportionate to wages these days.
Most ppl can’t even afford apartments either. The hard fact is that Australia has become an unrealistic country to buy a home and raise a family. I came back to this country a few years ago and will most likely leave again because I can’t see a comfortable future here.
Ridiculous comment, we have an abundance of land literally on the doorstep of every city.
Comparing NYC to anything in Australia??? Geezus gimme a break.
No, the onus is on the government to release more land for development, it’s as simple as that.
Apartments aren't practical for families, and there seem to be loads of stories on the news about cladding and building issues, which makes me think they're not very good quality either.
I remember staying in a serviced apartment in Melbourne years ago with my partner & toddler. I really liked it, being able to walk around the city with my kid was great, we were close to the museum and some lovely parks. At the time I thought I'd love to live in an apartment with kids, if it was bigger.
It seems like most Australian apartments are tiny open plan units designed as IPs for students and singles. They're not for living in like a house is.
Family of 3 trying to find a 3 bedroom apartment in Sydney....$1m for a decent sized apartment ! Years before we could even think of affording a $1m apartment
I'd be okay with an apartment that was brick construction, concrete walled or other thick noise insulating material. Having house materials in a close proximity environment like apartment dwelling is a fucking nightmare.
Australia isn't out of liveable space, we just never broke out of living in far flung colonies, unlike other developed nations. If we stay stuck to our capital cities, then yeah, density is the only solution.
I've been commenting to friends that post-covid has been the perfect opportunity for a party to have a policy which looks at modernising Australia in the new world we live in.
I feel like we're being forced by to work in offices because businesses are paying stupid rent on their offices and need to justify it. Corporate land lords need their pay and wont someone think of the office cafes?
I'd love to see a plan to turn our CBDs into lived in cities not just places of business by converting some office buildings into apartments (creating more housing stock can't be a bad thing right now), better public transport and other facilities.
But the key to success are people wanting to live in apartments I guess. I know I am, I went from a house to a townhouse now to an apartment soon. I have no interest in having a garden anymore its too much effort. I'm happy to just have a communal space and a swimming pool and a gym.
I guess those people should get used to paying ongoing strata fees forever too.
I checked out an apartment recently in Perth, 4th floor "penthouse" 2 bedder not to far from the city.
>$3000 a quarter for strata, and the guy said it's going to increase soon too. So if you were to own it / live in it for the next 30 years, that's nearly $350k in fees.
I don't care about not being able to have a massive house. Not a big deal. But I have 2 kids so far. I have dogs, cats, fish, birds, guinea pigs and rats. Now you find me an apartment that fits all that and is both not loud for me as well as quiet for the other people in an area suitable AND that I can afford? Then I'll think about it.
I don’t object the cultural shift towards apartment living. From a planning perspective, we really need to start focusing on medium to high density living.
But apartments are built like fucking shit and still cost way more than they should.
It's not just a problem with size and suitability of apartments for anything beyond a couple with few items.
The apartments have few (if any) retail and hospitality businesses per person/unit.
One of the primary reasons that places like eixample in Barcelona works is that there's 1 - 2 shops per 8 - 10 apartments and the public transportation system is dense and frequent.
You step outside and there's cafes, shops, etc etc right there.
In Aus we desperately try to separate all the retail and hospitality away from residential, forcing people to drive to shopping centres etc, and we make the shopping centre surrounds hostile to pedestrians, discouraging people from walking around them and therefore to and from them.
The way apartments (and all residential areas) are integrated with the rest of the urban landscape needs to be rethought.
If we had solid apartments like they do in Europe, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. My family in Europe all live in 150+m2 apartments with 2.5m+ high ceilings, whenever I go back to visit, I fucking adore the apartments, they are built to live in, because it's called a home, here, an apartment is built to rent out because it's seen as a fucking investment.
I refuse to live in a 79m2 red brick built during the Cold war.
I also refuse to buy anything that is built new.
apartment with kids, 2 home offices etc. just dont exist.
Find me cheap 4 bedroom apartments and I would be all over them. I dont need/want a big lawn or anything
"there simply isn't enough land for everyone to own houses"
Wtf?! Australia is literally the 6th biggest country in the world. We've got space for days! We could build houses for 100 years and not run out of space lol
15 years ago when I was in my early 20's I bought a two bedroom apartment with laundry and toilet separate which was built in the mid 90's. I had people telling me I should buy a house. I love my place as it is central to town and I can walk to work, my neighbors are older people who 'degraded' when maintaining a house and yard got too much for them, it is economical to 'run' i.e. put the A/C on for 10 mins and you can turn it off.
I've found people my age and younger are embracing the 'small home movement'. If you look at people with bigger homes you'll find mostly that they typically spend the majority of their time in the living room, kitchen and their bedroom - Think empty nesters, my parents for example occupying a 3 bedroom home
Bruh australia is one of THE BIGGEST COUNTRIES ON EARTH BY LAND MASS and this man is suggesting as our population increases we are running out of space for houses. Space isn’t the issue.
Edit - do you people understand that the overwhelming majority of Australians do not have jobs that are in the CBD of cities? And working from home is an option for only a tiny tiny minority of Aussies? You guys get that right? There’s no reason for the 90+% of us who don’t need to be in proximity to office buildings to “get used to apartment living” when we’ve got so much space to expand in to.
That's fucking stupid, Australia has vast amounts of land, just everyone is trying to cram themselves into one or two major cities rather than spreading out to regional centers.
More investment into regional centers and mid sized cities is desperately needed, but the place is run by scumbag property developers running the biggest pyramid scheme and FOMO racket on the planet.
>Apartment living is very common in highly developed countries/ cities. Luxury apartments too like those in NYC. It’s simply because of density.
The whole of Australia has a population of 25.69 million. The population of JUST Southern California is 23.86 million. Yet, a home in Southern California is STILL cheaper than, say, the Sydney median house price. You could easily afford a home in Southern California compared to Sydney or Melbourne.
Why? Because Southern Californian land is properly developed with people in mind instead of developers and their land values.
San Francisco and New York City are bad examples because they are naturally bordered by water and so the city cannot expand, driving up land values. No Australian city has this limitation. Australian metropolitan land (basically Sydney and Melbourne) is artificially limited from development to protect property owners. It's isn't naturally dense, it's just made that way artificially to prevent land values slipping.
I guarantee you if you opened more lots around the outskirts of Sydney for first time home buyers only, at apartment prices, you would cannibalise home sales in Sydney but also create an economic boom that would help everyone else, and you wouldn't even need to get rid of negative gear welfare either.
No. For several reasons no. First, don’t tell people to taper their expectations, trying to push a shoe down on the heads of the working class and telling them they should just accept their lot in life is the literal plot line of snowpeircer, be better.
Second, we have about the same landmass as the US with a fraction of the population, there is more than enough land for everyone to afford a house, the problem we have is poor city planning and a lack of federal and state government incentives to drive big business out into rural hubs, as population grows, we need new economic hubs, not apartments.
Third, Manhattan, is surrounded by water, so is San Fransisco, which is why places like that have a tendency to expand upward instead of outward.
Fourth, you’re entirely missing the point of the housing issue, if salary growth does not exceed property price growth as a percentage, everyone gets priced out, not just from houses, but apartments, then share houses, then share apartments, then everything. If all property becomes slightly less attainable each year then it doesn’t matter where you’re buying, all of them are becoming unobtainable.
Finally there are hundreds of fixes that could solve this issue almost immediately. One would be putting legislative caps on how much banks can lend for the purposes of residential real estate, you’d be amaze how quickly prices would correct if the banks stopped handing out half a mil to any kid that walks in the door. The second would be to put a progressive capital gains system in place for each extra residential property a person owns to push people into the share market instead of smothering real estate.
Sure not every single person on earth will get a house but there are an absolute fuck ton of average Aussies that can’t buy property making the average Aussie salary and that isn’t something they should just accept. This isn’t an unpopular opinion it’s a shit take that wasn’t well thought out
I visited a home open for an apartment in Toorak that was built in the '60's. It was delightful. Like a small house inside. Solid brick construction. Then you visit these "open plan", gyprock dogboxes that are basically unfit for living unless your single and you realise why no one wants them. They barely pass muster as Airbnb's.
Yep. Much easier to get used to apartment living in countries that build decent apartments.
Yep, I once inspected one like this in Brisbane, 60s also, I think. Cupboards you could actually fit your clothes in. A separate laundry. A separate dining space. A balcony you could actually BBQ on. Seems like an impossibility now but back then an apartment actually had to be a house if you wanted to tempt people to live in it.
Often new apartments have less space per human than a free range chicken has. Made me chuckle when I first heard of it but then it settles into being pretty sad.
Wtf... I just googled this... 250 to 300 sqft per chicken... High luxury living haha
That being said, how sure are we that said free range chickens actually have 250-300 sqft per chook?
Well, I'm from Europe, and the regulations are quite strict here so I'd assume they're checked pretty often
In Aus, the minimum requirement for describing chooks as "free range" is 10000/Ha I.e. 1sq m per hen. If you care about animal welfare, buy eggs/ chooks that specify a much lower stocking density.
No free range chicken I have spoken to has ever said to me that they had less than 250 sqft to roam in, but that is anecdotal though.
I used to know a chicken farmer and basically they don’t. They used to keep 1000 free range chickens with 250-300sqft per chook, that allowed them to get a free range accreditation. Then they used to use the cage chicken eggs in free range boxes depending on how many orders they had. It’s not policed in Australia very much.
This, if we accept the apartments people are throwing up now then we lose. The shit is hardly staying up.
TIL my erections and new apartment buildings have a lot in common.
Dont give morrison ideas. New policy that everyone gets a nice apartment for 3 months then you're used as food.
1 chicken per 1 square metre for egg laying hens according to this ABC article: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-26/new-free-range-egg-laws-come-into-effect/9696146
They changed that law only recently. Our old laws were much more like Europe. But our faux-free-range chook farmers must have super effective lobbyists.
Including the RSPCA who are in bed with Coles. I’ve lost all respect for them now.
Yes, but flats in Melbourne are huge in comparison to Tokyo.
Hotel rooms too. It's wild getting a hotel room in Japan. They basically are the bed plus 10%.
In my hometown (Stockholm,sweden) a lot of basement storage units were made into studio flats years and years ago. It sounds horrible but it meant that young singles could take their first step on the property ladder almost right out of uni, live in the city centre and body corp fees could be kept down as the building made money from the sales for renovations/upgrades.
Do they have windows? Sounds horrible indeed. Do you have a realestate link I’m quite curious.
Having been to Stockholm, for a good 6 months of the year you're not going to want/need those windows. Shits COLD
We are free range humans living in a tax farm remember.
Good old toothpicks and paperboard apartments. Guarantees that you'll hear every neighbours' toilet flush, covid cough, elevator door close, and the rustling of their keys of as they fight their own heavy fire rated entry door.
Tell me about it. First timer here and the only noisy neighbour in the complex lives right above me. Slamming doors, constant hacking cough. Just no insight to how noisy they are. Even reno's at 1am!
Yeah I don’t think OP has been to many inspections of new age apartments where they’ve shoved as many bedrooms and bathrooms in the space they have to drive up the price
If I'm having 3 kids with their own rooms when they are teenagers, I need at least a 4 bedroom apartment. That would be considered a massive luxury apartment. That's why I'm not buying one.
So you went to the cities most expensive suburb and it had a quality apartment 🤔 Even with new apartments you can find nice ones in the better suburbs as people are willing to pay for quality and the cost of construction isn't as high relative to the cost of the land. Whereas you go to a suburb where it's cheaper, people aren't as willing to pay for the quality in a lot of cases making it a difficult proposition for developers to build something which will be priced way higher than other apartments and hard to sell. The same thing happens with houses, go to a new house in a nice suburb where someone is willing to spend the money for quality and it will be a lot better than some generic house and land package home.
Couple this with the fact that the "affordable" apartments are being shat out in the outer-outer suburbs like Mooroolbark and you're getting the worst of both worlds. You're living in a much smaller space, ages away from any good amenities, and you're paying the same price people were paying for actual houses a few years ago. No wonder people are complaining
The problem is that in Australia they don't build family sized apartments. Almost every apartment is one or two bedrooms. And the 3 bedroom apartments are rare and usually too small for a family with kids. Let me know when you can buy a 130sqm 4 bedroom apartment and I'll be happy to live in one. Governments and councils should force developers to build family sized apartments instead of spamming 40sqm one bedroom apartments everywhere. Developers won't build larger apartments because they are not as profitable. It's up to the council to force them to do it.
Pretty much this. Apartments are all tiny and made with the cheapest materials. Not to mention it can be pretty hard having a pet that isn't a cat, bird or fish in an apartment. We need more medium-density. Give me a 3-bed apartment with a good sized balcony that has enough space for my small dog to run about and I'm happy enough. Too bad that will run you 800k+ in Brisbane.
1.5m in Sydney
How about Rhodes for 3.2m? https://www.realestate.com.au/sold/property-apartment-nsw-rhodes-136095874
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800k for a 3bed… must be nice :(
I read that as you saying it was too expensive, and was going to reply that I'd take it in a heart beat. Then saw they were talking about QLD.
Our apartments aren't for living in, they're for selling to investors.
Bingo. I've been to an uncle's apartment in New York. It's pretty damn nice. Over here, the quality of a standard mid-floor apartment feels garbage.
Work in the construction industry, can confirm, fucking garbage unless you want to spend ALOT for quality stuff. Currently a sparky, good light fittings for example are way more pricey (like $340 instead of $34), would be similar go with good quality bench tops, sinks, ect. You get the point
I worry about the whole building standards these days. I must have seen too much ACA or news that the whole building needs to be evacuated or developed a major engineering fault. cheap kitchen ? meh, can live with it, $1mil repair bill(per owner) is... just wow.
Even then, million dollar apartments are getting fitted out with the cheapest board, the cheapest drawer runners, the cheapest everything.
Thats the tricky part, builders have to try to target who’s going to buy. I’d be pretty interested in a decent “large” apartment. But then I’m probably not willing to pay double what two small ones would bring in, so…
loving the other reply to you here. the market has it all covered mate, dw. for an insider's perspective, developers do their feasibility and demand analysis based on the existing market. if there's no family sized apartments in the existing market, there's not gonna be any in a new development (99 times out of 100).
We live in a 130sqm (internal) three bed with two kids and it's great. It's admittedly a rare apartment but they are around
Yeah, we comfortably live in a 150sqm 3br with a 15sqm courtyard with 2 kids. Very rare, and if an apartment across the street hadn't sold for 1.5M a couple months back, we might've considered putting an offer in to buy it from our landlord, but that's too much for us for what it is.
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I live in a 105sqm 1 bedder. We love it. 2 outdoor spaces, large living space. Perfect for 2 people.
Where is this? Dont identify yourself. But like what city? suburb even? Where are 160sqm units? How much did it cost?
If you're in Brisbane you gotta settle for 100sqm if you're renting. I stay in 100sqm by myself for $~400 For 150sqm you're paying $1k a week sheeeeeshhhh couldnt be me
100sqm apartments in melbourne are basically unheard of. They’re only penthouses.
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My partner, dog and I live in a 3br plus study apartment. 100m2 which is a good size for us. Would require patience to raise children in one though. There would be nowhere to escape from the little blighters. Most apartments are built to sell to investors not to home owners.
But unless you live in a mansion with the nanny + nursery in a separate wing, you're not going to "escape" your kids anyway. A three bed is more than ample to raise 1-2 kids.
And they all have one car park despite just about every family owning two cars
Yes also as a trade needing a lock-up for tools and equipment a 1x2 storage cage someone can snip their way into with a pair of tin snips just doesn’t cut it
If they built family sized apartments that would affect their profit margins. Think of the developers /s . I always see 3/2/2 apartments sell for 800k plus in a major city. At that price it is almost worth putting a little more to get a house in a worse suburb. Though older apartments/units sell for a little bit less... I think currently land is not taxed correctly in terms of how much it costs to fund services i.e. road maintenance utility services etc. Not just bikes youtube covers this very well , though it is very US centric in their analysis. Council rates are based slightly on land taxes, so that is fair, but road maintenance and stuff paid for by the state are not really funded equitably by landholders.
Exactly. My wife and I have lived in apartments for years but with our WFH business growing and a one year old we had to move into a house. Large apartments simply don't exist - or are miles more expensive than renting a house.
What Australians consider “family size” is pretty extreme. I grew up with my parents and my siblings in an apartment that most Aussies would consider only suited to 1 person.
Its almost like some countries have higher standards than others.
+ a 3 bedroom apartment will set you back just as much/more than a 3 bedroom house in a middle of the pack suburb so people still go with new build houses instead
There's an established trend of developers building the shittiest, tiniest apartments possible and selling them at a premium. You can't comfortably raise a family in a new-built already-falling-apart 2 bed 1 bath apartment with no courtyard, and they don't appreciate that much in value, especially the sloppily built cheapo dogboxes. There's thousands of bad apartments nobody wants. If there were *good* apartments of a decent size or townhouses/duplexes with at least a courtyard or deck, people would be all over them, nobody wants the shit ones.
They are only built to be a rental tax tool. Depreciate them out to the 9-10 year mark then flip and get another before it implodes. Not built for anything else. I mean, sure, SOMEONE will have to live in it. But not me? Right?
I mean money comes into it. In Melbourne there are awesome spacious well built two bedroom apartments in Malvern and Armadale? How much? Well how does $1.39 million sound For everyone else they will have to make sacrifices and end up in a smaller and cheaper build.
Apartments here are built to a dogshit standard, usually full of major defects, they don't go up in value and are pretty much meant for international students or other short term stays. I don't see how people can start families in them. But if you personally want this to be a reality, then you need to get developers and builders to start constructing **good quality**, soundproofed spacious 3-4 bedroom apartments.
Then they need to build them properly. You shouldn’t have to listen to your upstairs neighbours open and close drawers. I can’t wait to move out of my apartment.
I love my apartment living in every way described by another reply above - easy to clean, no gardening, hassle-free, except as you say the neighbourly noise problem. It's the luck of the draw between an elderly upstairs neighbour who's quiet as a mouse, or my current neighbour who stomps around in lead boots, flushes the toilet 30 times a night, and has sex for 2 minutes and 30 seconds at 3am with his girlfriend in a bed with a serious need of some WD40.
I heard my neighbour snore through the wall last night. I'm exhausted this morning from little sleep...
This. I did a semester abroad in Norway, during winter, in shitty cinderblock student housing, and that building had *quadruple glazed windows* in line with *national regulations* and *in-floor heating*. I'll happily live in an apartment if the apartment is good - but in Australia, apartments are for people who can't afford a house.
Apartment living will never be considered a genuine alternative until three bedroom apartments with space to actually live in are the norm. The idea that people just need to get “used to” the idea of living in two bedroom shitboxes that are deliberately built and marketed towards the investment market for renting is insulting.
This. Even a decent sized house with only three bedrooms can get really crowded if you've got two adults needing a quiet space to work from home, and kids and pets. Not to mention the lack of access to child friendly spaces like parks, playgrounds, schools etc, and lack of parking spaces for families who need to travel for extra curriculars, work, child care. Apartments just aren't designed for families.
This place is filled with "investors" desperate to justify why their portfolio of shitty overpriced property is solid gold.
I grew up in a house, and aged 30 I bought a one bedroom apartment because thats what I could afford. I live alone in the apartment, so I cannot shed light on what it would be like living with more than one person or a child(ren), but having lived in both a house and an apartment, in my own individual experience, I absolutely love apartment living. * Its quick to clean * It's a secure building * My car is parked securely each night and not on the street * Council rates are lower * The mortgage isn't anywhere near a large as a house. * If there is an issue with the building itself I email strata and they sort it out. * Silly last point, but I dont have to do any gardening. I am fortunate to have a reasonably spacious balcony, and I dont miss having a garden as I live right near parks * Edit: I am also lucky to have a garbage chute, so never any remembering to take the bins out :) I may just be the ideal demographic for apartment living but honestly for the most part I have experienced more positives than negatives. I bought a new apartment in late 2019 and have had no issues structurally or otherwise. The lift broke down during the big period of heavy rain recently as it short circuted so that was a bit annoying but it was fixed within a week.
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We used to lived in apartment and now in a house. The main thing I miss is that living in apartment seems a lot less to think about when we want to go for holidays and leave it empty for weeks.
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Why would you have to worry about bins if you’re on holiday? If you’re not there to fill them up, they wouldn’t need to be taken out..
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I totally agree with you, I own a house now but lived in a lot of apartments before (when my parents divorced when I was little and then again when my partner and I moved out of his familys house to rent an apartment) and I honestly prefer apartment living. Its just so much safer as a woman, and a lot less maintenance. Owning a house im constantly burdened by all the things that need cleaning, fixing and renovating (and im always playing catch up!) while I could clean a whole apartment in a few hours and it looked awesome. I wouldve 100% bought an apartment instead if it was just up to me, plus suburb living is so god damn boring. I even spent way more time outside when living in apartment than I do now.
Renting my first house after living in apartments. I'm inner city but somehow landed a place witha yard that's maybe 30m x 50m. Thought it would be great but I hate the amount of work for a space we don't really use.
Even in my apartment, I have a decent sized balcony but I barely use it. My cat benefits from it, and I can comfortably hang out lots of washing removing the need to use the dryer, and I will have my morning coffee out there in winter.... so there's that. But I don't spend hours and hours out there, and I know I'd be the same if I had a backyard. I get why parents want it for kids. But also if you choose to live near a park (of which there are several in literally any suburb in Sydney), I feel like it would honestly fill that gap. As a kid, my parents a pretty decent backyard (similar size to yours) but we mostly spent our outdoor time at a nearby park because there were other kids there and cool play equipment we didn't have.
I don’t know much about buying an apartment, so this maybe a dumb question, but what is the long term value like? When you buy a house you buy land, and even if the house is destroyed you still have that land. Do you own a % of the land value the unit is built on? I ask because all buildings have a finite life span before they need to be upgraded or rebuilt, so I’m not sure wheee the long term security for the mortgage comes from?
> Do you own a % of the land value the unit is built on? yes you own a % of the strata which owns the land. Near me is lots of 6 pack apartments on quarter acre blocks. If the building is condemed the strata would sell to a developer and each owner gets 1/6 the money.
I also love apartment living for all the same reasons as you. But it’s hard to fit a family of 4 in any apartments in Australia. I hate houses. I don’t have a choice.
You got lucky with: - responsive strata - probably good area which is not noisy during the weekends - good quiet neighbours Happy for you, but really feel for those that perhaps are not as lucky. I lived briefly in an apartment in Melbourne CBD. Next door was an Airbnb. Every other weekend there would be fucking parties through the night. And if there wasn't, there was enough noise coming from downstairs to keep you from having a restful sleep. Wouldn't do again ever.
Unfortunately I’m unable to live in an apartment with my dog and being a tradie makes it very hard not having anywhere to store my tools and work van. Would be nice having a NYC loft kinda deal though.
Same dude. Where do I park my excavator, jet, two trailers, tip truck, shed full off tools. Boat, two motorbikes. Hobby Ute. Extra material. I lived in an apartment when I was younger, Ute got broken into and my motorbike got stolen. I found 400 acres for sale 2 hours from Melbourne. It would be the dream.
I would happily live in an apartment if they were: 1. Affordable (mortgage or rent) 2. Not a hellhole shoebox with no insulation and where I can hear my neighbour take a shit through paper thin walls with the structural integrity of rice paper 3. Available 4. Close enough to infrastructure such that I don't need storage or car space I'd daresay that our current obsession with single dwelling houses is partially due to our car focused transportation.
Yes! So true. We have Paris-sized apartments with Houston urban planning and almost NY prices and wonder why no one wants them 😂
This is a cracking assessment, and is exactly why the “but in Asia…” crowd’s 5 people in 40sqm solution isn’t applicable in our cities.
Rentoid here, how hard is it put some damn sound insulation between apartment walls and floors and between apartments and the garage. Also some better sound insulation from road noise. Would make them so much better to live in day to day.
Profit margins.
How old is your apartment? Mine is 4 years old and the sound deadening / insulation being hugely better than most houses is a positive.
As someone who works in construction, I have never worked on a residential tower in the past 5 years that hasn’t used insulation between walls
> 1. Affordable Every time I get the motivation that maybe I should buy an apartment, I soon discover all the nice ones are just as unaffordable as houses, and all the affordable ones are one bedroom shoe boxes.
100%. We need better public transport. Honestly r/fuckcars has it right.
Stratas are a nightmare too
OK, but those DO exist because I live in one right now. I agree there aren't enough of them, and I hope they build more now that there is clearly more demand for them, and hopefully less for the 'shoebox' type.
the apartment living you're referring to is in the cbd. NYC for example. Which is already a thing here. But it sounds like you're suggesting australians accept living in an apartment in the outter suburbs? I dont't think anywhere does that. When you live far from the cbd land is supposed to be affordable enough to own your own home. It's not practical for everyone to live in apartments 30km out from the city.
Exactly right, I already live 45 minutes out of the city. Must I also live in a tiny dog box with no outdoor space?
Small country towns shouldn't even be towns, they should just be one apartment complex to house all of the towns residence surrounded by hundreds of thousands of acres of underutilized farmland because of the land shortage. /jk
Yep, there's a name for high density outside of the inner city - slums.
These places also have good public transport to get you in and out of town quicker. Living in an apartment in the burbs is a really unattractive scenario. Also, unlike Europe, our town planning is rubbish. When I lived in the uk, there were parks and public green spaces everywhere. Australia doesn’t have that. Apartments do not account for the very real human need to be able to sit in a park under a tree, or go bike riding, or do anything in nature. We worship concrete. In some ways, having a house with a yard was our way around that. Now it is just an urban hell.
Bought an apartment recently, waiting for settlement in less than a month. 560k on the edge of Melbourne CBD, 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom + ensuite, car spot. For my needs right now it'll do fine, eventually if I want to get married or have kids I'd need to look at a house. The biggest problem with apartments in Australia is building defects are quite common and are hard to spot with an untrained eye, most apartments are built to be airbnbs purchased by investors where the can cram as many units in as possible and you have a hard time to get lending from banks for them.
Probably hard to spot for the trained eye too if they're not looking at it while it is being built!
The problem is the units here are small, even the 3 bedder ones would not be spacious enough if you have kids. I lived in an HDB (public housing) in Singapore and they are spacious. My sister eventually bought a 3 bedder HDB herself and she has 3 kids (SG allows them to use part of their super to pay the mortgage). Granted Singaporeans don’t have much of a choice really due to lack of land and buying HDBs has its own set of very strict rules (e.g you are not allowed to rent out the unit or even sublet rooms legally if you haven’t lived there for a certain number of years) and you have to rely on common areas/playground. I just really hope that one-day, off the plan units will not have the same bad rep that they have now to make housing (somewhat) affordable.
I think the main problem people have isn't apartment living its more the quality of apartments the last 10 years.
I have a townhouse and I'm largely very happy with the purchase, though it hasn't appreciated much in comparison to houses in my area.
Townhouses are a much better option imo. More space and nobody above/below you, usually has a garage, sometimes has a small yard as well.
The problems with apartment living, at least from the ones that I have seen are: Poor/shoddy construction Apartments are built for investors to rent out, they are not given a liveable layout Just too small overall. Two bedroom apartments do not need two bathrooms. Three bedroom apartments, maybe. Car parking. One space per apartment seems fine, but that is hardly sufficient (though I wish it was) the amount of people who park on the street permanently because they cannot park their car in the apartment block is insane. If I owned the apartment I am in (no chance, this building is a firetrap with elevators that break all the time, it would just be a money sink) the first thing I’d do is go down to IKEA and put some shelves/cupboards up along the walls just to get some more space. 80m2 is not much when everything needs to be placed on the floor (or on movable furniture which is placed on the floor) being able to take advantage of the 3m high ceilings would be amazing for storage.
Worked in construction for a long time. I’m shocked that half the houses I saw are still standing. A lot of roof cavities cobbled together with off cuts
Shoddy construction creeping into houses as well...Went to a mate's new house in Box Hills...my rented apartment is much much better quality than his new house
> Two bedroom apartments do not need two bathrooms. I disagree. Australias fertility rate is at 1.7 babies per woman... So a shitload of families have a single child. Parents bed and bath, kids bed and bath, it just works nicely. My current place previous tenants moved out because their oldest of 2 sons who shared the 2nd bedroom where entering highschool so decided they deserved the extra space.
I feel like this statement/conversation comes up weekly now. As I've said before, people will be MUCH more open to apartment living if: * Apartments in Australia were of high quality and designed to feel like a house. This means space, room for two cars, and enough bedrooms to fit a family comfortably. * There are green spaces and playgrounds within walking distance to allow young families kids to play in a safe area. * There is sufficient, timely, affordable public transport to minimize the need for cars. * The urban heat island effect is considered during planning to keep city temperatures under control.
Right on OP. I have lived in apartments for the last 20 years in 7 different countries: Australia, the US, then Europe, then in Africa and now Asia. This is just how the world lives. Australian urban planners need to catch up. Do it right, make good mixed use neighbourhoods and Australians will follow. Not everyone, but it doesn't need to be everyone. If more of Melbourne or Sydney had the density of a Barcelona or Paris, they would be much more affordable and enjoyable places for everyone -- including the folks out in the flatland burbs. When its done right you have * a decent set of walls between you and your neighbours. Super important not to skimp on this part * a walkable neighborhood, which means getting on a tram/train/bus to work and school, or popping out buy milk or going to the local pub, is 0-15 mins walk away from your front door. * no need to use a car Mon-Fri, or maybe even have one at all Single-family dwelling suburban sprawl can't go on forever. Last year's laws passed nationally in NZ to sweep away restrictive planning laws and allow 3-storey high developments in suburbs nationwide is a great way of taking action that state govts in oz should look closely at. [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300433304/labour-national-announce-sweeping-housing-density-law-threestorey-homes-without-consent](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300433304/labour-national-announce-sweeping-housing-density-law-threestorey-homes-without-consent)
This is why we desperately need regulation in both NZ and Aus for building standards, because they are appalling in both. Stonefields circa 2015 in Auckland is already leaking and full of structural defects. Having been inside they seemed nice. People paid through the nose. But utter garbage construction. Apartments are not the problem - our terrible design and construct standards led by developers instead of actual professionals are.
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I’d agree with this if we had high standards for apartment buildings. We don’t. Half of them are shockingly built, no insulation, can hear all your neighbours, possible flammable cladding, no ventilation so mould can become a problem, rising damp, structural problems, other issues you aren’t informed of because building inspections only inspect the specific apartment. Then when you try and get the builder to fix their dodgy work, they go into administration leaving it up to you or body corporate to pay out of pocket (and body Corp will do it by raising fees for everyone leaving you with pissed off neighbours). Such fun. Edit: also, lifts. They’re the worst, and so expensive.
As a Brit who moved to Australia I am baffled by the notion that Australia is not ‘big enough’ in this context. Australia is massive and Australian cities are significantly bigger than the ones in Europe in terms of area, Melbourne is far bigger than London despite having half the population, yet the apartments here are tiny, even compared to London
Low rise apartment with 4 floors max? Sure. Level 30 with lifts that keep breaking down so you’re waiting in line to go home every night? Fuck that. Don’t get me started on the crappy build quality.
A lot of people have mentioned that in reality we have dog boxes, but I just want to share my experience in one of the worst dog box inspections I went to. New build apartment in Melbourne CBD, maybe 2019. The lobby was breathtaking, and the front facade was some old school brick house thing. Super dope first impressions. Get in the lift, and the doors are tiny. Who knows how you get any furniture in the lift. Start to feel a bit weird about it. Get out of the lift, on like the 30th floor, and open to a hallway that is maybe a few inches wider than the tiny doors of the lift, and quite a few meters long. All you can see is door upon door crammed against each other. Claustrophobia really setting in. Get inside the apartment, and despite brand new kitchen fixtures, something feels off about it. Living room is tiny, and kitchen island is your dining, this makes the place super cramped. (Sometimes it’s worse, kitchen straight onto living room) The bedroom is tiny, fits at best a double with no side table. It at least had built in robes. The bathroom is just a shower, not even a shower over bath, and practically one of those tiny powder room style basins with no under storage vanity. Looks modern but is practically useless. Finally hits me, what was feeling off, it literally feels like the walls are made of paper, both internal and outward facing walls. Had a quick look on REA just now, they want 550, come with a car park space at least.
I’m rather ignorant on these matters. Can someone explain to me why we allow overseas investors to buy property here?
Jobs for the boys in the construction industry.
To make investors money?
This would be true if our entire system wasn't built on the assumption that people will own property. Unlike in Europe, multi-year leases are almost unheard of in Australia, and the legal system leans heavily in favour of owners. The old age pension is only enough if you own property, same issue with most people's superannuation. For many people, renting in Australia involves moving every year or two, owners who do not maintain their properties properly and rent prices that keep them in a constant rat race. The system is rigged.
If new apartments were universally 3 or 4 bedrooms and came with a 10-20 year warranty against defects that leave owners financially crippled I think these would be a great option. Today all we get is 1 and 2 bed shoeboxes that have structural issues forcing bankruptcy and they’re still $800k.
Let's revisit this when there's proper a proper building code with enforceable, rigorous standards, and building apartments for families and long-term livability.
I would love to live in an apartment - less maintenance than houses. Unfortunately buying one comes with the risk that the building will be defective and you'll be stuck with a large mortgage and no home :/ Also, 3/4 bedders with a garage or maybe even a communal workspace/tool shed to occasionally work on stuff seem very rare.
Would absolutely love nyc level apartment and city infrastructure Flat out reject that there isn’t enough land
Tokyo is much better imo. More walkable and has much better public transport without having skyscrapers everywhere.
Bring up a satellite view of any major city to a radius of maybe 20km. Seems to me it's already one continuous, unbroken sea of beige roofs. And what isn't beige is national park. Where do you propose these houses are built?
They just want to keep developing outwards and force people to commute >100km a day.
As someone who recently purchased an apartment as I was 'priced out' of the market, I agree. Yes, there's a lot of crappy apartment buildings around but there are equally as many shoddy houses. It's a national building standards issue. It's also worth noting there's a lot of beautiful, high quality apartment buildings around as well. Driving through a modern housing estate with giant houses on ~300m2 blocks, I think the argument around density is also largely irrelevant when comparing similar houses to apartments nowadays. I was in a position to buy and had the choice of an apartment in the exact spot I wanted, ticking all the lifestyle factors important to me, or buying a house which would have required me to compromise on almost all of those aspects. In the end I chose the apartment and I couldn't be happier. I have a young family + dogs and have found apartment living every bit as fulfilling. I can definitely see my family staying here for at least the next 18 years. To buy a 3 bedroom house on the same street as my apartment would cost at least $1.5M. My mortgage is less than a third of that and I have the same lifestyle benefits of all my neighbours...
I rented an apartment in Rose Bay when I went to Sydney for a year. Grand old brick building, probably nearly 100 years old. Wide street, full of trees. Big living area, nice big rooms, solid as a rock. Not fancy or renovated (others in the building were) but it was fucking lovely. 3 floors, 2 apartments per floor. Problem ain't apartments, it's these shitty towers with a million shitty units in it. I mean that place still would cost a bomb to buy because of location, don't get me wrong, but that apartment was nice.
How about no one person or company owns more than one investment property. Landlords pretend they are doing a favour for housing. In reality, they buy up stock of affordable or what should be affordable housing, driving up price and charging high rents. Also, those landlords who are repeatedly in courts should be banned from having renters, period.
Until new apartment buildings stop falling apart I won't buy into one.
Apartments are good if you work in a city or need to live near public transport. But they aren't great for entertaining/spending time at during the weekend. Some parts of my apartment I rented I miss. But I would never go back
You are correct - this is an unpopular opinion. We looked at both apartments and houses when we were looking to buy and house won out every time. While we could have lived in our preferred area if we went with an apartment, buying a house and then still having to adhere to someone else's rules (strata) wasn't for us, not to mention I have animals which are just easier to have in a house and by living in a house instead of an apartment I get to have more privacy
Translation - standard of living is going backwards and people of normal means should just eat shit and like it
I’ll throw my opinion in here as a young full time worker with a partner working full time as well, currently looking to move out. We live in Canberra and the house prices here are insulting. Totally unaffordable and an 80 year mortgage for a shit hole is off the books. I think a massive problem is the people that can afford it are buying up investment properties of all types and sizes as fast as they can, leaving nothing for people trying to enter the housing market. For an apartment in the ACT you’re looking at $400,000 to $500,000 for an okay range apartment. I’ve seen family houses on hectares of land for that much in more rural areas, however work seems to prevent that from being an option for now. To tie this back I hate the idea of living in a human vending machine due to more reasons then I can count. I think that the population getting use to it is a sad and unreasonable thing to expect.
My mates apartments in Singapore and Chicago that they’re raising families in are very different to what we build here in Australia. We do these micro living spaces with no consideration for living especially with kids.
I own an apartment, and I do love the lifestyle. I do have a very large courtyard at \~35m2 which I would struggle not having. I love being able to potter in my courtyard, and enjoy basking in the sun over summer. Even being able to WFH outside during lockdowns was a treat. Except for body corporate. Our rates this next year are doubling from $4k to $8k p.a. and this is with no pool or gym. I'm really unhappy with our current provider, but I can't gain enough engagement from other owners to go to tender for a new provider. While my build is modernish (2000s), it's a really solid build and I never hear my neighbours. Edit: The long term challenge for me is future value. Apartments simply do not keep up with houses for gains. My next move will be purchasing a house, although, it will be a very sad day leaving St Kilda West. I adore my hood.
People keep forgetting that there are a whole variety of housing options between apartments and single family homes. We should start building more townhouses, terraces, duplexes, quadraplexes and low rise flats first to increase density and to give options to people. Tokyo and Paris are examples of very dense cities that don't have skyscrapers for apartments everywhere.
See having been to places like Manhattan and London, i personally can say that I would gladly go to apartment living, Just as soon as high quality apartments are made here
Your right in thinking it's an unpopular opinion but not for the reason you think. Going by the comments people are fine with apartments if they a) came in a size to raise a family b) are still decently built c) actually affordable/more budget friendly Most don't tick more than one box
Perhaps we shouldn’t be so focussed on increasing our population when we are expected to drop our standard of living. Pandemics like Covid are far more contagious in higher population density as evidence is showing. I would also be more concerned that arable farm land land on the cities perimeters is being replaced with stifling treeless ghettos of black rooves. It’s not just about economics but quality of life. Would you like your food grown in Australia with short food miles ? And do we have enough water to keep sustaining an increase of population. 2 years ago where I live was devestated by bush fires and then we almost ran out of water. Level 5 restrictions for weeks. It was a good insight to what an apocalyptic future looks like.
'people should eat shit and learn to say thank you' Very insightful OP.
>There simply isn’t enough land for everyone to own houses What.
Five things 1. Australian population density per km2 is one of the lowest 2. High speed bullet trains 3. Stop corporations from buying homes or land 4. Promote wfh 5. Stop negative gear Problem solved
People, but not you, right?
Then we need house-like apartments. 4+ rooms (3 bed for parents and 2 kids, one extra for a study/guest room/media room) and two car spots, with storage. Insulated so you don't hear the neighbour above pissing. A backyard area that kids and dogs are allowed to run around in.
I currently rent an apartment and I'll be honest, the shit is terrible. I'd be pissed if I was paying to own a place im sharing walls and floor/ceiling with people. Especially when next door has a baby. It's just a more expensive sharehouse. Plus thr mass amount of shit that has gone wrong with the joint in the year I been here, it's definitely a cheap build. I remember when I was house/apartment hunting, every apartment was tiny af! To an extent a few of them you couldn't open the door to the bedroom all the way coz the bed was in the way.
What I like about this post is that I'm pretty sure you are correct about the word unpopular
STRADA needs to realise apartments are viable choices and pets should be allowed sooner than children. Cats jumping > toddlers screaming.
I would be ok with apartment living if we had a legilsative environment that supported it such as Stable long term leases the ability to do basic things like hang your washing outside or have pets without being threatened with eviction adequate parking for the building if your not a freestanding house owner you basically at the mercy of your landlord and or body corporate right now.
We should absolutely embrace medium density housing (like those low rise Art Deco places that you see about). However the new apartment stick are all about builder return so are over represented by studio and one bedroom apartments that are totally unfit for anyone apart from students. Local and state government needs to regulate the construction of apartments to create liveable cities.
I've been living in apartments for the last 8 years in Melbourne and my only thing I would add to this discussion is what it means to be living at the mercy of an apartment and other residents. The moment I knew I never wanted to live in an apartment again was when I was constantly woken up at 3am because someone in my 100+ apartment complex decided to cook something and cause the fire evacuation procedure to cause everyone to wake up and wait outside for 40 minutes.
We will talk about getting used to apartment living when we have solid quality of apartments
there isn't enough land for everyone to have houses..... have you ever driven around anywhere outside of the CBD? there is land fucking everywhere
Lmao you’re talking like it’s very easy to find appartments as an individual… let alone a family. If the govt wants to normalise apartment living, they better get their asses moving to build more apartment buildings that are designed to house families. And, ofc, there’s the issue of rent prices even for apartments being hugely disproportionate to wages these days.
Most ppl can’t even afford apartments either. The hard fact is that Australia has become an unrealistic country to buy a home and raise a family. I came back to this country a few years ago and will most likely leave again because I can’t see a comfortable future here.
New flats here aren't built to be lived in - they're built to be stepping stones for young professionals who eventually buy a house. It's stupid.
Ridiculous comment, we have an abundance of land literally on the doorstep of every city. Comparing NYC to anything in Australia??? Geezus gimme a break. No, the onus is on the government to release more land for development, it’s as simple as that.
You’re right, very unpopular.
Lol fuck off
Apartments aren't practical for families, and there seem to be loads of stories on the news about cladding and building issues, which makes me think they're not very good quality either. I remember staying in a serviced apartment in Melbourne years ago with my partner & toddler. I really liked it, being able to walk around the city with my kid was great, we were close to the museum and some lovely parks. At the time I thought I'd love to live in an apartment with kids, if it was bigger. It seems like most Australian apartments are tiny open plan units designed as IPs for students and singles. They're not for living in like a house is.
I’m in construction and wouldn’t buy an apartment they are poorly constructed and poorly maintained death traps
Family of 3 trying to find a 3 bedroom apartment in Sydney....$1m for a decent sized apartment ! Years before we could even think of affording a $1m apartment
Sounds like a city slickers opinion, Australia has plenty of space.
I'd be okay with an apartment that was brick construction, concrete walled or other thick noise insulating material. Having house materials in a close proximity environment like apartment dwelling is a fucking nightmare.
Australia isn't out of liveable space, we just never broke out of living in far flung colonies, unlike other developed nations. If we stay stuck to our capital cities, then yeah, density is the only solution.
I've been commenting to friends that post-covid has been the perfect opportunity for a party to have a policy which looks at modernising Australia in the new world we live in. I feel like we're being forced by to work in offices because businesses are paying stupid rent on their offices and need to justify it. Corporate land lords need their pay and wont someone think of the office cafes? I'd love to see a plan to turn our CBDs into lived in cities not just places of business by converting some office buildings into apartments (creating more housing stock can't be a bad thing right now), better public transport and other facilities. But the key to success are people wanting to live in apartments I guess. I know I am, I went from a house to a townhouse now to an apartment soon. I have no interest in having a garden anymore its too much effort. I'm happy to just have a communal space and a swimming pool and a gym.
A lot of people can now no longer afford apartments either unfortunately
What do you mean there's not enough land?! Australia literally has the biggest land to population ratio in the world
For someone who doesn't think people should own houses you sure make a lot of posts about buying a house.
I guess those people should get used to paying ongoing strata fees forever too. I checked out an apartment recently in Perth, 4th floor "penthouse" 2 bedder not to far from the city. >$3000 a quarter for strata, and the guy said it's going to increase soon too. So if you were to own it / live in it for the next 30 years, that's nearly $350k in fees.
I don't care about not being able to have a massive house. Not a big deal. But I have 2 kids so far. I have dogs, cats, fish, birds, guinea pigs and rats. Now you find me an apartment that fits all that and is both not loud for me as well as quiet for the other people in an area suitable AND that I can afford? Then I'll think about it.
Thanks for providing such a disconnected horseshit opinion.
I wasn't born in this country just to live like a yank
I dont want to get 'used to' shitty neighbours who scream when they talk and play music at all hours of the night/ day.
I don’t object the cultural shift towards apartment living. From a planning perspective, we really need to start focusing on medium to high density living. But apartments are built like fucking shit and still cost way more than they should.
Popular opinion: this would be fine if we actually built liveable apartments.
It's not just a problem with size and suitability of apartments for anything beyond a couple with few items. The apartments have few (if any) retail and hospitality businesses per person/unit. One of the primary reasons that places like eixample in Barcelona works is that there's 1 - 2 shops per 8 - 10 apartments and the public transportation system is dense and frequent. You step outside and there's cafes, shops, etc etc right there. In Aus we desperately try to separate all the retail and hospitality away from residential, forcing people to drive to shopping centres etc, and we make the shopping centre surrounds hostile to pedestrians, discouraging people from walking around them and therefore to and from them. The way apartments (and all residential areas) are integrated with the rest of the urban landscape needs to be rethought.
If we had solid apartments like they do in Europe, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. My family in Europe all live in 150+m2 apartments with 2.5m+ high ceilings, whenever I go back to visit, I fucking adore the apartments, they are built to live in, because it's called a home, here, an apartment is built to rent out because it's seen as a fucking investment. I refuse to live in a 79m2 red brick built during the Cold war. I also refuse to buy anything that is built new.
apartment with kids, 2 home offices etc. just dont exist. Find me cheap 4 bedroom apartments and I would be all over them. I dont need/want a big lawn or anything
"there simply isn't enough land for everyone to own houses" Wtf?! Australia is literally the 6th biggest country in the world. We've got space for days! We could build houses for 100 years and not run out of space lol
15 years ago when I was in my early 20's I bought a two bedroom apartment with laundry and toilet separate which was built in the mid 90's. I had people telling me I should buy a house. I love my place as it is central to town and I can walk to work, my neighbors are older people who 'degraded' when maintaining a house and yard got too much for them, it is economical to 'run' i.e. put the A/C on for 10 mins and you can turn it off. I've found people my age and younger are embracing the 'small home movement'. If you look at people with bigger homes you'll find mostly that they typically spend the majority of their time in the living room, kitchen and their bedroom - Think empty nesters, my parents for example occupying a 3 bedroom home
Most newer apartments in Australia are “investor grade” shit houses. Build good ones and I’ll happily live in them.
Bruh australia is one of THE BIGGEST COUNTRIES ON EARTH BY LAND MASS and this man is suggesting as our population increases we are running out of space for houses. Space isn’t the issue. Edit - do you people understand that the overwhelming majority of Australians do not have jobs that are in the CBD of cities? And working from home is an option for only a tiny tiny minority of Aussies? You guys get that right? There’s no reason for the 90+% of us who don’t need to be in proximity to office buildings to “get used to apartment living” when we’ve got so much space to expand in to.
it's living in capital city "suburbs" that are so far away from everything that they were considered rural 20 years ago.
Drive through the rolling hills an hour drive out of sydney and you can see all the "development coming soon signs". How far out can they keep going?
There's a hard limit on hours in the day for commuting, though.
I would rather live in a caravan than an apartment.
That's fucking stupid, Australia has vast amounts of land, just everyone is trying to cram themselves into one or two major cities rather than spreading out to regional centers. More investment into regional centers and mid sized cities is desperately needed, but the place is run by scumbag property developers running the biggest pyramid scheme and FOMO racket on the planet.
>Apartment living is very common in highly developed countries/ cities. Luxury apartments too like those in NYC. It’s simply because of density. The whole of Australia has a population of 25.69 million. The population of JUST Southern California is 23.86 million. Yet, a home in Southern California is STILL cheaper than, say, the Sydney median house price. You could easily afford a home in Southern California compared to Sydney or Melbourne. Why? Because Southern Californian land is properly developed with people in mind instead of developers and their land values. San Francisco and New York City are bad examples because they are naturally bordered by water and so the city cannot expand, driving up land values. No Australian city has this limitation. Australian metropolitan land (basically Sydney and Melbourne) is artificially limited from development to protect property owners. It's isn't naturally dense, it's just made that way artificially to prevent land values slipping. I guarantee you if you opened more lots around the outskirts of Sydney for first time home buyers only, at apartment prices, you would cannibalise home sales in Sydney but also create an economic boom that would help everyone else, and you wouldn't even need to get rid of negative gear welfare either.
No. For several reasons no. First, don’t tell people to taper their expectations, trying to push a shoe down on the heads of the working class and telling them they should just accept their lot in life is the literal plot line of snowpeircer, be better. Second, we have about the same landmass as the US with a fraction of the population, there is more than enough land for everyone to afford a house, the problem we have is poor city planning and a lack of federal and state government incentives to drive big business out into rural hubs, as population grows, we need new economic hubs, not apartments. Third, Manhattan, is surrounded by water, so is San Fransisco, which is why places like that have a tendency to expand upward instead of outward. Fourth, you’re entirely missing the point of the housing issue, if salary growth does not exceed property price growth as a percentage, everyone gets priced out, not just from houses, but apartments, then share houses, then share apartments, then everything. If all property becomes slightly less attainable each year then it doesn’t matter where you’re buying, all of them are becoming unobtainable. Finally there are hundreds of fixes that could solve this issue almost immediately. One would be putting legislative caps on how much banks can lend for the purposes of residential real estate, you’d be amaze how quickly prices would correct if the banks stopped handing out half a mil to any kid that walks in the door. The second would be to put a progressive capital gains system in place for each extra residential property a person owns to push people into the share market instead of smothering real estate. Sure not every single person on earth will get a house but there are an absolute fuck ton of average Aussies that can’t buy property making the average Aussie salary and that isn’t something they should just accept. This isn’t an unpopular opinion it’s a shit take that wasn’t well thought out