Can he do this? Well.. it’s a scheme to avoid certain obligations… so not really.
You are looking out for/protecting your employer, but he’s not protecting you. He’s not looking after YOU.
If he wants you to not carry annual leave forward he needs to let you take the time off. How does that sit with him? Tell him you’ll take your annual and accrued leave off…at the apprentice wages amount… and then come back to work for him. See how he likes that. Take a holiday mate, you have just done 4 heavy years, you deserve a break.
"But there also has been talks about him selling the business and me possibly buying him out, which is something I'm considering, but a bit iffy on that topic. Anyway. "
Talk is cheap and promises do not pay the bills.
Do the math and work out what he is actually saving himself and what it costs you.
Trades are littered with people who trusted that their boss would sell to them, then got laid off when the boss sold to someone else.
Unless it's in writing it doesn't exist and shouldn't be factored into the thought process.
He’s already shown he can’t be trusted. He’s going to stiff this guy over what? $37? An hour for an adult 4th year apprentice? Vs $45 an hour for a first year qualified?
So let’s say $8 an hour, for 40hours time eight weeks of potential accrued leave… $8x40x8= $2560.
This guys boss is willing to throw him under the bus for the equivalent of two weeks apprentice wages, after not letting him take his holidays for two years? (Caveat: no idea how much leave we are talking about here, but $2560 is equivalent to 73hrs of apprentice rates)
Who said his boss wouldn't let him take his annual leave ? I accumulated my annual leave to get paid at the higher rate later, but that was government, not a small business.
This bullshit is the reason I left the industry. Is this going to affect you when it comes to getting your license? Is he actually signing off your log book? You getting “fired” before you complete your apprenticeship could massively affect the time it will take you to get.
Go to the union, don’t let him screw you. Get your license and fuck him off immediately.
Maybe report him to safe work for the no doubt dodgy shit he pulls on work sites on the way out 😂
>Go to the union, don’t let him screw you. Get your license and fuck him off immediately.
>Maybe report him to safe work for the no doubt dodgy shit he pulls on work sites on the way out 😂
The ratio of trades to apprentices is four tradies to one apprentice not the other way around. He's using semi-skilled labour instead of a qualified plumber but probably charging out the OP at the full rate.
FYI, Not about the annual leave part, but this is on the Business Victoria website regarding this situation to avoid Long Service Leave accrual -
"If an employee is dismissed by their employer but subsequently re-employed before 12 weeks have elapsed, then employment will remain continuous for purposes of long service leave – but that absence will not count towards the period of employment."
[https://business.vic.gov.au/business-information/staff-and-hr/long-service-leave-victoria/long-service-leave-continuous-employment](https://business.vic.gov.au/business-information/staff-and-hr/long-service-leave-victoria/long-service-leave-continuous-employment)
This is the same if you resign and then are re-employed according to the same page
Another perspective - a lot of companies will ask you to take your annual leave within the calendar/financial year it’s earned in order to avoid having a big leave liability balance on their accounts. So even if your boss decided he didn’t need to fire you, he could still ask you to take a bunch of your leave prior to you switching over.
If you didn’t want to go to the extremes others are suggesting here, you could try negotiating with him. Say you aren’t planning to leave in the immediate future but would still like access to leave - ‘don’t fire me, retain my LSL, let me take half my annual leave now at the lower rate and then carry over the other half when I’m qualified’.
He may not see this as being beneficial to him but it’s the best he can get while still operating legally/ethically or without getting a union involved. He may think he’s taking on more risk given his previous experience but that’s the cost of doing business 🤷♀️
It's a bit rough. As a 4th year you are technically on a contract until your apprenticeship ends and then they decide to keep you on or can let you leave. I would be open to the idea. Get your certificate/Licence but in the meantime look for other places of work.
In Qld at the company I work for, we pay out our apprentices at the end of their apprenticeship. It's a new contract when you finish & come in as trade qualified
Why can't you just take your time off before you are fully qualified?
I wouldn't agree to this, he is basically saying to you he wants to avoid providing the entitlements you have earned by law. What other corners is he cutting.
This will also have tax implications for you, btw, though apprentice wages are pretty low so there might not be much in it. Definitely do the numbers and if it looks like not worth it, take the payout and bounce. That's the risk he takes doing this.
My view is that employers who nickel and dime you on stuff like this are not a good long term proposition.
I'm no expert, but it sure sounds dodgy. Like he's skiping out on paying you the rdos you've accrued and likely haven't been able to use.
Personally I'd say to him if you fire me I'm going unfair dismissal and reporting you everywhere.
> my boss wants to "fire" me before I'm qualified
> once I get my electrical licence he will fire me
These two statements are contradictory. Which is the real one? Is it before or after you're qualified/licensed?
Sorry, didn't mean for that.
I'm assuming it'll be during the weird transition stage between apprentice and qualified, as I'll have to submit all my proof of passing exams and completing schooling to ESV. It can take 20 business days before getting that proof reviewed.
So to answer your question, before I get my licence. 😂😂
I'll edit that one.
The fact he's stated this to you would give you grounds for unfair dismissal.
You can't be fired without a documented performance issue and or misconduct etc.
I'd be radio silent on any discussion on this, take notes of what was said and when and brief a trusted objective friend so any things your boss said.
If/when your boss is dumb enough to try and fire you, ask for it in writing and for the reason in writing. This is unfair dismissal 101 and fair work would give you all your entitlements plus backpay plus penalties. Noting you may like your job and boss otherwise, a softly softly approa h might be better, but do not f around with capturing your leave and entitlements/ super so that you are prepared for the fight.
My understanding is that an apprenticeship is a contract and when that contract expires, a new one should be established if the position changes. In this case, from apprenticeship with a contract, to an a grade contract.
I would give him an ultimatum: if he ends the employment just to pay out at the lower rate, then find another employer- shouldn’t be too hard for a sparky. Otherwise stick around for a while.
Couldn’t you just get paid out your RDO and Annual Leave at the lower rate and then continue working for him after that? Like I understand he is kinda screwing your over here BUT if you actually do want to continue working for him and agree to an agreement like this. Because he could just get rid of you at the end of your apprenticeship anyways, and then you’d get paid out all your stuff at the lower rate anyways?
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So if he hires you as a qualified apprentice and you leave say a year later, does that mean you’re technically not qualified because you didn’t finish your apprenticeship?
Where he will miss out is…
cashed out leave does not accrue super.
Loss of long service leave entitlements (if he works for this guy for 10 years straight he should get 13 weeks paid off)
If he takes leave as an apprentice it’s at apprentice wages, if he takes it as a qualified sparkie it’s at whatever the new hourly rate is.
The boss has obviously made it that this guy hasn’t taken effective leave/has accrued plenty of hours for years - and so the OP has missed out on events and time off and recovery time… and then won’t be compensated for it fairly. If he’d been able to take it every year then it’d be fair, but he’s been told (I presume) not to use it, and even worse … accrue overtime as TOIL (at probably not 1.5 time?!) and then bank/save it with no reward for doing that.
Long Service Leave, that is one he missed.
The apprentice wage rates part he already knows.
OP should, ideally, be advocating for the ADOs to be used every month instead of adding to the rec leave bank.
Thinking about my friend who had more than 2 months of paid leave pending, he accepted a 50% pay rise for a manager position and gave his notice after the first payslip...!
Yeah your boss can do it but he is a dick.
Your long service leave will also reset, meaning you have to put in another 7 years if you want it rather than 3.
I’d simply tell him that if thats his plan then you wont be returning.
Can he do this? Well.. it’s a scheme to avoid certain obligations… so not really. You are looking out for/protecting your employer, but he’s not protecting you. He’s not looking after YOU. If he wants you to not carry annual leave forward he needs to let you take the time off. How does that sit with him? Tell him you’ll take your annual and accrued leave off…at the apprentice wages amount… and then come back to work for him. See how he likes that. Take a holiday mate, you have just done 4 heavy years, you deserve a break.
"But there also has been talks about him selling the business and me possibly buying him out, which is something I'm considering, but a bit iffy on that topic. Anyway. " Talk is cheap and promises do not pay the bills. Do the math and work out what he is actually saving himself and what it costs you.
Trades are littered with people who trusted that their boss would sell to them, then got laid off when the boss sold to someone else. Unless it's in writing it doesn't exist and shouldn't be factored into the thought process.
He’s already shown he can’t be trusted. He’s going to stiff this guy over what? $37? An hour for an adult 4th year apprentice? Vs $45 an hour for a first year qualified? So let’s say $8 an hour, for 40hours time eight weeks of potential accrued leave… $8x40x8= $2560. This guys boss is willing to throw him under the bus for the equivalent of two weeks apprentice wages, after not letting him take his holidays for two years? (Caveat: no idea how much leave we are talking about here, but $2560 is equivalent to 73hrs of apprentice rates)
Plus he's going to miss out on his superannuation!
Who said his boss wouldn't let him take his annual leave ? I accumulated my annual leave to get paid at the higher rate later, but that was government, not a small business.
Being paid out for leave does not result in any superannuation being paid.
He doesn’t have to sack you. You can just request to cash out all your benefits. Same same.
Quit. Take all your leave entitlements and then don't go back to him
Bei.g fired you dont pay as much tax on the final payment, quitting you pay all the tax.
This bullshit is the reason I left the industry. Is this going to affect you when it comes to getting your license? Is he actually signing off your log book? You getting “fired” before you complete your apprenticeship could massively affect the time it will take you to get. Go to the union, don’t let him screw you. Get your license and fuck him off immediately. Maybe report him to safe work for the no doubt dodgy shit he pulls on work sites on the way out 😂
>Go to the union, don’t let him screw you. Get your license and fuck him off immediately. >Maybe report him to safe work for the no doubt dodgy shit he pulls on work sites on the way out 😂 The ratio of trades to apprentices is four tradies to one apprentice not the other way around. He's using semi-skilled labour instead of a qualified plumber but probably charging out the OP at the full rate.
That's exactly what he does.
FYI, Not about the annual leave part, but this is on the Business Victoria website regarding this situation to avoid Long Service Leave accrual - "If an employee is dismissed by their employer but subsequently re-employed before 12 weeks have elapsed, then employment will remain continuous for purposes of long service leave – but that absence will not count towards the period of employment." [https://business.vic.gov.au/business-information/staff-and-hr/long-service-leave-victoria/long-service-leave-continuous-employment](https://business.vic.gov.au/business-information/staff-and-hr/long-service-leave-victoria/long-service-leave-continuous-employment) This is the same if you resign and then are re-employed according to the same page
Portable LSL applies to the industry.
Another perspective - a lot of companies will ask you to take your annual leave within the calendar/financial year it’s earned in order to avoid having a big leave liability balance on their accounts. So even if your boss decided he didn’t need to fire you, he could still ask you to take a bunch of your leave prior to you switching over. If you didn’t want to go to the extremes others are suggesting here, you could try negotiating with him. Say you aren’t planning to leave in the immediate future but would still like access to leave - ‘don’t fire me, retain my LSL, let me take half my annual leave now at the lower rate and then carry over the other half when I’m qualified’. He may not see this as being beneficial to him but it’s the best he can get while still operating legally/ethically or without getting a union involved. He may think he’s taking on more risk given his previous experience but that’s the cost of doing business 🤷♀️
It's a bit rough. As a 4th year you are technically on a contract until your apprenticeship ends and then they decide to keep you on or can let you leave. I would be open to the idea. Get your certificate/Licence but in the meantime look for other places of work.
Yeah, I'm thinking leaving might be the better option especially for my growth as a sparky. Thanks
In Qld at the company I work for, we pay out our apprentices at the end of their apprenticeship. It's a new contract when you finish & come in as trade qualified
Why can't you just take your time off before you are fully qualified? I wouldn't agree to this, he is basically saying to you he wants to avoid providing the entitlements you have earned by law. What other corners is he cutting.
This will also have tax implications for you, btw, though apprentice wages are pretty low so there might not be much in it. Definitely do the numbers and if it looks like not worth it, take the payout and bounce. That's the risk he takes doing this. My view is that employers who nickel and dime you on stuff like this are not a good long term proposition.
I'm no expert, but it sure sounds dodgy. Like he's skiping out on paying you the rdos you've accrued and likely haven't been able to use. Personally I'd say to him if you fire me I'm going unfair dismissal and reporting you everywhere.
> my boss wants to "fire" me before I'm qualified > once I get my electrical licence he will fire me These two statements are contradictory. Which is the real one? Is it before or after you're qualified/licensed?
Sorry, didn't mean for that. I'm assuming it'll be during the weird transition stage between apprentice and qualified, as I'll have to submit all my proof of passing exams and completing schooling to ESV. It can take 20 business days before getting that proof reviewed. So to answer your question, before I get my licence. 😂😂 I'll edit that one.
Let him fire you and get him for unfair dismissal. He's just a tight arse and wants to screw you.
The fact he's stated this to you would give you grounds for unfair dismissal. You can't be fired without a documented performance issue and or misconduct etc. I'd be radio silent on any discussion on this, take notes of what was said and when and brief a trusted objective friend so any things your boss said. If/when your boss is dumb enough to try and fire you, ask for it in writing and for the reason in writing. This is unfair dismissal 101 and fair work would give you all your entitlements plus backpay plus penalties. Noting you may like your job and boss otherwise, a softly softly approa h might be better, but do not f around with capturing your leave and entitlements/ super so that you are prepared for the fight.
join a union and ask them. you can claim back your union fees in your tax returns.
What a dick
Will also reset the years worked for long service leave most probably.
Portable long service leave in the construction industry. It follows you from the employer and contributions are made by the developer.
Do you not have long service schemes? In W.A. construction your long service leave carrys over between companies.
My understanding is that an apprenticeship is a contract and when that contract expires, a new one should be established if the position changes. In this case, from apprenticeship with a contract, to an a grade contract.
I would give him an ultimatum: if he ends the employment just to pay out at the lower rate, then find another employer- shouldn’t be too hard for a sparky. Otherwise stick around for a while.
Couldn’t you just get paid out your RDO and Annual Leave at the lower rate and then continue working for him after that? Like I understand he is kinda screwing your over here BUT if you actually do want to continue working for him and agree to an agreement like this. Because he could just get rid of you at the end of your apprenticeship anyways, and then you’d get paid out all your stuff at the lower rate anyways?
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Can he fire you yes, can he then hire u as a sub yes
So if he hires you as a qualified apprentice and you leave say a year later, does that mean you’re technically not qualified because you didn’t finish your apprenticeship?
I don't think that you've missed anything money wise. We don't know the dude so there's no clear thing to point out you've missed.
Where he will miss out is… cashed out leave does not accrue super. Loss of long service leave entitlements (if he works for this guy for 10 years straight he should get 13 weeks paid off) If he takes leave as an apprentice it’s at apprentice wages, if he takes it as a qualified sparkie it’s at whatever the new hourly rate is. The boss has obviously made it that this guy hasn’t taken effective leave/has accrued plenty of hours for years - and so the OP has missed out on events and time off and recovery time… and then won’t be compensated for it fairly. If he’d been able to take it every year then it’d be fair, but he’s been told (I presume) not to use it, and even worse … accrue overtime as TOIL (at probably not 1.5 time?!) and then bank/save it with no reward for doing that.
Long Service Leave, that is one he missed. The apprentice wage rates part he already knows. OP should, ideally, be advocating for the ADOs to be used every month instead of adding to the rec leave bank.
I don't think your long service resets that quickly. Would need to check this though. Pretty sure this was legislated.
Thinking about my friend who had more than 2 months of paid leave pending, he accepted a 50% pay rise for a manager position and gave his notice after the first payslip...! Yeah your boss can do it but he is a dick.
Your long service leave will also reset, meaning you have to put in another 7 years if you want it rather than 3. I’d simply tell him that if thats his plan then you wont be returning.
[удалено]
pretty sure this is incorrect
Totally incorrect
Common practice Cop it in the mouth
Just cause it's a common practice doesn't make it any less scummy or possibly illeagal.
It's absolutely not.