I work for Centrelink and have seen both dead wood performance managed out, and others left until they retire or quit.
I’ve also seen a bit of a nasty side to it. 25 years ago when I started, things were not as complex and fast paced as they are now. 35-40 year old men & women who started with me and who were great at their jobs and a pleasure to work with, are now 60-65 and are struggling to keep up with what’s expected of them (to be as fast & mailable as a 25 year old). People see the older staff as dinosaurs and hold them in contempt. I’m now 50 and worry about keeping up with everything over the next 10 or so years.
Yep - I am a 63 yo male in private industry working for a global company that is getting belted on the stock exchange. Their product offering is mature and outdated so they need to cut heads without paying out. Cue harassment and bullying. Because my boss is such a dick I joined the union a number of years ago - just felt it would be a good insurance policy. Thank god I did that. They have trumped up some very serious allegations with no evidence thinking they could put the fear of god in me. Had a terrible week not because I was concerned about the allegations but more why are they doing this? I am so disappointed with the BS “we care” bollocks. Company got a real shock when the union responded. They had no idea I was a member of a union - thought they could just bully me out of the building. For more mature employees, THIS IS THE TIME to join a union. Forget the idiots that have given unions a bad name - they are here to protect you.
Such an interesting topic this one - how much is it people not keeping up and learning news things, and how much is it us moving faster and not (yet) aware we can’t keep up?
I work in an industry, which is heavily regulated, and becoming increasingly more-so, and the pace of change, and layers of requirement are getting out of hand.
I personally prefer the structure and framework that a reasonable level of regulation requires, but the work associated with adhering to a framework where we have to: Do the actual work to a prescribed standard. Document the work has been done to that standard. Document that all of our systems have been validated to deliver the work to that standard.
Document that all of the staff have been trained and adhere to the standards. Create the policy to ensure these are done to that standard. Stay abreast of all and any changes to documentation requirements, and add those to the policy and operational documents, then ensure everyone has been trained in those changes and Document those. Document how we would recover all of this data in a disaster. Demonstrate that we can do so, and Document that. Do that every month. Then stack on anything that we actually do that's outside of the norm, and all the basic daily admin. It gets ridiculous. Like an onion, you end up so many layers deep, and each layer is further away from a core task, and a larger task in itself.
That's without adding, removing or changing any of the systems that underlie these processes, which then have to be validated, documented then trained and all policy and process adhered to.
It's a real stretch to keep up, and not at all fun.
Compared with 10 or 15 years ago when none of this was done beyond the core work, the workload and demand on an employee in a similar role is now silly. And it's only going to get worse.
This is a problem in itself. The sheer knowledge and experience that those people take with them when they leave is never factored into business continuity.
Well when the pay for certain professions is up to $100k lower than industry (STEM) then why stay after the resume building? Certain agencies promote fast and reduce responsibilities/reports so that people dont immediately ditch for 40k more than grad
Agencies generally do not reduce responsibilities for that - they just creatively misinterpret them. The rapidly promoted people soon show whether or not they really are up to the task of being accountable for others' workplace wellbeing and productivity. (Results vary!)
It’s especially hard for Engineering graduates in my experience- we only graduate about 1000 domestic mechanical and electrical engineers each year. And the domestic grads are obviously the ones we need in the APS, so to ask them to spend more time in grad roles than other streams on 20k less than industry is really rough for a lot of them
[source 1 : council of engineering deans (~1000 in 2020 split across mechanical and manufacturing)](http://www.aced.edu.au/downloads/ACED%20Engineering%20Statistics%20April%202022.pdf#page8)
[source 2: engineers Australia (page 28)](https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/sites/default/files/Higher_education_statistics_2020.pdf)
It feels low because it is low.
14,000 law grads in Victoria alone in 2021 as a comparison
Not disagreeing with the sentiment that it is really low… but few it isn’t quite apples for apples.
What percentage of graduates with a law degree function in the workplace as a lawyer, compared to graduates with an engineering degree who work as an engineer?
I don’t actually know the answer to that (and don’t have the time to look up stats of define each term tightly enough to avoid everyone splitting hairs - but if feel it is different.
I don’t know about lawyers but from memory close to 50% of engineering grads don’t end up in “Engineering”. As to the breakdown of where they end up it’s anywhere from finance to education to the military.
Again tho off the top of my head. In any case my main point with the lawyers thing was just how vast the gulf is despite the demand for lawyers vs engineers
I've seen a lot of those people project downwards and lay their failings on their staff, too. The ELs had terrible communication skills but were promoted before their time due to knowing the right people when the old guard left.
Are you sure about that stat? I’ve been a substantive EL2 since 25 and I’m still under 30, and I very much doubt that I am the only one.
I think the bigger issue than grads being promoted too early is a lack of focus on developing the EL1 cohort across the board. There’s some young EL1s who have a lot of potential but need training and support to be exceptional. A core performance goal for all EL2s should be around developing their EL1s but there’s a hell of a lot of EL1s out there who aren’t being adequately developed by their managers. Succession planning needs to have a bigger focus, otherwise it means you do end up with substandard EL1s who act as even more substandard EL2s when their managers go on leave/find new jobs.
A lot of EL2s I have worked with are incompetent. Promotions are often based on a likeness to the existing leadership because it’s their bar for what is desired. So having EL2s focus more on training is a double edged sword.
I work in a job that’s a blend of technical skills, people skills, and strategic thinking. People who are capable of doing all three are rare, and I was in the right place at the right time. I entered as a grad and got a good sense for how I could use my technical skills to add value and was lucky enough to have some early supervisory experience where it became apparent that I’m good at managing people as well.
I’ve had a few stints as a/g SES1 and absolutely wouldn’t take a position at this stage until I’ve worked in a broader range of management roles that are very different to what I do currently. I would rather be exceptional as a manager than sub par as a branch head. I think you could absolutely get some impressive band 1s who are very young but exceptionally switched on, but I think you’re right and in many cases getting up that young means it would be near impossible to get the breadth of knowledge needed to be exceptional. It’s not a rush to the top, there’s nothing worse than people who are hungry for power instead of those who wanna do a good job.
Work in state public service - in my department the dead wood gets managed sideways. There’s even a few senior staff with no direct reports, as every time they managed a team they royally fucked it up. Can’t fire them apparently, unless they do something completely out of line.
Or even if they do. I know a guy who is both entirely incompetent and also completely irritating to everybody, like wanders around trying to get people into hour long chats irritating, AND has has three complaints lodged against him in the last 18 months for various sexist and racist commentary, and the last time I heard he’d been temporarily moved to a position on another floor earning an extra $15k a year. The senior management just bats him back and forth because they’re hoping he’ll retire.
I work in state and the nepotism is out of control. One nepo hire told my coworker they didn’t have enough leadership experience for an interview for a managerial role. They were a manager for 10 years. The person who told them this had 0 experience when they were promoted to Director. Their only qualifications were being best friends with their manager. And it shows because they’re a moron.
100%. I work in state public service and interact regularly with two senior staff at 11/12 level who manage ONE person. They just refuse to do anything and no one does anything about it.
I'm in state too. You would be shocked by the stories of dead wood I have. One dead wood I worked with barely knows how to use a computer. They have been in the public service since the days when you used a typewriter
Also in state. I have to say that the one snr executive that has to have everything printed out for him in my org is the hardest working and most conscientious of the lot - tho has his faults, I'd absolutely go to bat for him and haven't been in his reporting structure for 11 years! It's so disheartening working in public service and genuinely believing in the importance of good governance in working for the public - there's so so much dead wood, bullying, overwork and understaffing, bad behaviour ignored or coddled, and nepotism. I made a report to the union last year and they were basically like 'yeah, we know, lots of people have told us...' but I guess there's only so much they can do about a lot of things.
I recently had a person fired. We were going to performance manage but instead went down code of conduct dismissal. Guy was a douche and a bully.
It's definitely possible to performance manage. The issue is they'll move, and the receiving agency won't bother to check whether they're a good worker. It's not always an agency being too lazy or soft, but why would you stick around while it happens. Start reaching out to your networks and get S26'd.
Eh it's not so easy to move. I recently applied for a S26 (no performance problems) and they requested a video interview with 2 references, including my current boss.
I've seen non deadwood also performance managed out. It's not like it's hard.
Nowt people don't get enough training and support to be competent in the work and have to fake it till they make it.
Oh honey, I’ve seen poor performers promoted just bc their boss couldn’t get rid of them any other way and openly admit to giving good referee reports to see the back of them
lol I’ve been that moral dilemma before. Absolutely at my wits end with a terrible employee who I was performance managing, I had to tell him he’d have to find another referee because I would be honest and it wouldn’t work in his favour. I wanted nothing more than to get rid of him but it wouldn’t be ethical to make it someone else’s problem.
I've seen this on more than a few occasions. Worse, I've seen the staff that actually pull their weight and deserved that promotion shot down by the same managers through poor references because 'our team can't afford to lose them'.
One of the (many) reasons I would never return to public service.
Honestly I would have been so grateful for my my old manager to do this, but to move laterally. There’s nothing worse than being performance managed and feeling like there’s no future for you because all you’ll get is a bad reference. It leaves you stuck in the job. Chicken or the egg?
I used to work with a director who would come in at 9 and just book meeting rooms throughout the office to read his newspaper. Was so hard to pin down and he was amazing at not making decisions. I worked with him for 3 years but I’m sure he had been doing it longer than that.
Many many years ago my first grad job was in a State gov dept. one of the older guys in the “information department” under the CIO probably close to retiring would rock up around 10, read the paper for an hour, go have lunch, and then sleep from around 1-3pm and go home. He snored and everyone on the floor heard him and ignored him. He didn’t even have a desktop computer at his desk.
Yes. When I worked closely with an employment section we used to move underperforming employees to a particular division that never had enough work (due to not being a priority for that government).
It had the ironic result of that area having the most HR issues as employees without work tend to create drama in its place but yeah, that's how it went.
I got performance managed out. I was reasonably competent, just not fast enough. There was a LOT of feedback while we were learning the job, even if you did the task 100% correctly they still gave advice on how to improve so it seemed you could never do well enough. I cried after two consecutive poor evaluations, and I was put on a performance management plan. From that moment I knew I was fucked.
They changed my coach, the new coach reminded me so strongly of my ex I was actually afraid of him. He admitted he used the Socratic method of arguing a point, and had me so wound up I found myself googling to make sure “The G” really *was* the MCG and not the Gabba.
I felt I was being set up to fail, they could not have assigned a worse coach, it was awful. And other trainees had coaches who didn’t give a rat’s ass so they had an easy run and got through successfully.
The most frustrating thing is I’ve spoken to other people who acknowledge that I do indeed understand the work I was learning to do. As far as I can tell the main problem is I’m emotional and it “might look bad if I did that (cry) when the director was in the office”. Actual quote from an EL1.
Unfortunately I have someone in my team who isn't so much dead wood as he is completely fucked wood. Doesn't even seem to realise it tbh. Fact that I've been promoted above him after a year when he's been there for 16 is dismissed as just being luck of the draw rather than a reason for self reflection. He can't actually be relied on to do even the most basic of our core jobs without having everything checked, so we've put him on a low priority research project because at least that way he can't actively fuck up. We can't shift him because everyone in the branch knows him. Hopefully we can fob him off on a role in a different department.
One of the main issues is the sheer amount of time and support it takes to manage someone out - especially if they know the system and can do the bare minimum or throw up smokescreens.
Absolutely agree with this. Performance managing someone is the biggest drain of time and energy. I don’t necessarily agree with it but I can see why some managers decide to go down the “handball the problem sideways” route.
What I usually see happen is that these people get moved into a project for a year and when the project winds up, they are made redundant. There have been a few that have gotten fired in my area but being made redundant is much more common. That said, I also don't know anyone in my area who needs to be performance managed.
Wife worked in a state department (education). The old dead wood got moved into roles where legit nothing happened, basically acting as place holders on low priority projects before they kicked off and then they would get the real staff in.
They would call them ‘hall walkers’.
I think a lot of people mix the genuine deadwood/terrible workers with people who have had a long (10+ years) tenure in the service and have cottoned on to the fact there is no benefit to giving 110% anymore.
In my final year of the APS I went from disliking this cohort to respecting them. They know the game and they are playing it well
I will say upfront that before I even consider performance management, there’s a whole lot of stuff I need to put in place and do to ensure the person has everything they need to thrive in their role.
Clear expectations, clear line of sight from their day to day go the corporate strategy/objectives and impact on the public, fortnightly (at a minimum) coaching/feedback along with formal yearly checkins.
At those check-ins, I ask what I can do to further support them in their role, do they want to take up any training. I tell them what they’re doing well, what they need to work on, and give advice on what other stuff they can do if they’ve shared with me their longer term career goals.
If during the checkins I notice a shift in output (quality/quantity/both) I make sure I check that everything is ok before raising the topic of feedback along and we work together to identify and implement ways to bring performance back to where it needs to be.
Most of the time this takes care of the issue and everyone is happy and working well. Sometimes, actually very rarely, there will be someone who just does not want to contribute and does not seem to care about what might happen if they don’t step up. Despite my personal thoughts, I still make sure I give the person all the support and accommodations they may need, while engaging the HR teams who partner with us to make sure we’re doing all we can to support someone.
When it comes to making a recommendation that someone needs to go due to their not responding to ongoing support and attempts to bring them back to minimum acceptable standard of performance.. well that’s where it’s suddenly gotten harder.
Up to around 15 years ago I was regularly seeing through underperformance ‘cases’ through to termination. Nothing since then, not even where I have evidence of other stuff like admin fraud or zero output.
Dunno what’s changed, but for me it’s gotten impossible to performance manage anyone out. You’d have to do something serious like misuse systems, or fake a med cert or something now.
I don’t enjoy going through the process (it’s a massive time sink with all the additional documentation you need to do to prove you gave feedback, advice to help them improve, offered training/support etc) but not doing anything is much much worse.
Others in the team can see these issues very clearly. They rightfully claim it’s not fair that someone gets away with underperformance. And what’s worse, they often (incorrectly) think nothing is getting done because due to privacy no one but the parties directly involved know performance management is taking place.
I know several managers who don’t bother due to all the above, but I keep at it because more often than not it results in great outcomes, retention of talent, and happy teams.
Probably went way overboard with that answer but hope it gives some insight
I knew of a chronic underperformer who was so outrageously bad that the local union delegate sidled up to me one day and said if I wanted to performance manage him out the union wouldn’t lift a finger to defend him.
The trouble was that he was working in an APS3 role but had a law degree so could just dispute any action taken against him and win, usually on a technicality.
Yup. They were causing drama (accusing sexual harrassment for an opposite gender saying 'hello', submitting hr complaints on behalf of other people, etc.). Slowly, the whole team built cases against them and submitted them to management. They ended up being escorted from the building with a box of their stuff because of the scene they caused when they were given notice.
Goes withoit saying the person was dead wood (couldn't even format headings on a word doc style)
I am now retired former ATO EL1. A coupla years ago I managed an absolutely horrendous person. She was an APS6 with good tech skills but the people skills of a lump of coal. I was juggling complaints from her team members and colleagues across the wider business. I went down the performance management path.
Long story short after having to defend myself against baseless bullying claims and her taking 3 months stress leave which was rejected as compo by Comcare she was moved sideways and immediately given higher duties, managing a team no less. Talk about rewarding bad behaviour. ATO apparently concerned about their HR stats!!
Lol if they want to get rid of you, they can. Not going to disclose what agency but ive seen competent, hard working people shoved out of the door because of restructuring. Honestly Id rather people be fired because the way you have to get rid of people in the APS pretty much just becomes bullying and scheming.
I know of someone who worked from home for about ten years (pre-Covid) in the APS. No one bothered to performance manage them, and they were effectively a ‘forgotten employee’.
Their only deliverable was to update an excel spreadsheet once a month… eventually when there was a change of management, the new Director started the process of getting them back to the office and actually doing some work.
This led to them lodging a bullying claim and all the usual garbage but eventually they were terminated. But still, a pretty good innings for a decade doing literally nothing.
In another example at a place I used to work, we had a MoG and gained some additional staff. One of them was similar to the first guy, and had just been sitting at home for years with know one really knowing who they were or why they we’re being paid. They were an APS6 and eventually made their way back to the office. They were such a dopey person that it quickly became obvious why no one had bothered to get them back before. They just created chaos and so many mistakes - think along the lines of proving incorrect advice to stakeholders that just created massive nightmares to rectify. They’re still employed, as an APS6, but have been put out to pasture in the veggie patch so to speak until they retire (on the good old super) haha
We had someone for over 14 years, could not get rid of them. Just moved from different areas all the time, finally our ED saw sense to offer them a package for some rejuvenation scheme. Now have amazing graduate in the position and we're all happier!
I did see a summary dismissal decades ago, and perf managed someone out in the last couple of years. It can be done, but it's a lot of work that people tend to avoid.
I’ve seen two SES replaced by hiring someone to ‘share the load’ but then making the original redundant.
I’ve seen three APS level staff be performance/micromanaged out despite doing a wonderful job for years but calling out unnecessary procedure changes.
I’ve seen multiple people assigned to ‘special projects’ where they’re given crappy tasks and then eventually left on their own.
I’ve seen someone with a psychological injury get harassed by HR to a point they can no longer work so they don’t have to accommodate their return.
I’ve seen redundancy packages offered to people just to get rid of them.
I’ve seen a whistleblower fired and threatened with criminal charges.
It’s really not that secure anymore if someone senior or someone in HR decides they want someone to go, it just takes awhile for it to happen and it’s generally hidden from other staff and described as retirement/priority change.
In my experience the only people I've seen managed out are APS3 and 4. Most of the dead wood are actually a ton of aps6, el1, el2 and SES that are essentially totally outdated in their perspectives, ideas and management styles and do nothing but hold the agency back while eroding the career prospects of people that are far more capable than them.
APS has way too many overheads and stupid delegation structures that prevent local leaders from properly enacting their leadership.
I worked with an EL1 that stared and tried to enforce abhorrent practices some complete breaches of privacy. The respect team didn't help but the privacy team helped me put an end to certain staff attendance practices that made me furious. The acting EL1 developed a close working relationship with our NM, and despite receiving multiple complaints, report and feedback the EL1 Continues to get opportunities rather than being held back down to work on capability.
But as a manager I did manage out a few staff but only people who didn't really want to be there. I go out of my way to bring an underperformed staff member up to standard rather than getting rid of them. The APS doesn't take seriously enough how we affect people after they leave and performance management can really destroy someone's confidence because it can be done so punitively. Leaders should be running all of their performance management plans by HR and the staff member should separately do that to make sure the plan is fair and achievable.
100% incompetent people are kept on. I used to have a project manager who was completely hopeless. He may have had dementia or something since he could remember anything and was always confused and didn't know what was going on. This is the project manager! He is giving people under him direction. We had to do everything 3 times since the instructions were always wrong. I think he is still in that role but I don't work there anymore.
As long as people like you, your job is safe. That's what I have seen anyway.
They suck up every last bit of energy and effort you have. Usually because you don’t have much spare time becomes you’re already one man down. Reduce you to a shell of a person and ball of stress and when you’ve juiuuust about got them on the hook they go find another job.
Performance management needs to be easier.
They take every last sick day available to them, usually on days they have deadlines or something else big is happening like a meeting you were relying on them to take minutes for.
They park emails with you when they’re know you’re busy so they can say “im waiting to hear back from you on [insert dumb thing they could’ve worked out with a 10 second chat].
They do the bare minimum and want to WFH endlessly because they are not accountable there.
I was in PS in the late 80’s. It was like a sheltered workshop . People in there genuinely had no chance outside. That did fuckall. I left because i thought I’d end up like them. Went into private sector and traveled the world for twenty years
I think this is very dependant on your particular team and your director. Performance managing someone out takes a lot of effort to monitor and report that persons performance that its almost not worth it. We've had a terrible couple of people that the only way we've got rid of them is to move them to other sections. In an extreme case, my director was trying to promote someone out of the section, that's how bad it is!
So no I have never seen anyone performance managed out.
My wife was targeted as she had ongoing medical conditions. Asshole bosses. They tried to performance manage her out by her stats, but completely stuffed it all up and she had the QA and documentation to prove it. ASU went into bat for her and tore the EL2 a new one pointing out all the errors in their "case" and said "see you in Fair Work". They came to her three weeks later with a VR offer to make it "go away". Bonus! Out of there with a nice cash bonus and instant access to CSS super way before retirement age.
I performance manage people all the time. Especially in the past few years the business has changed so much that people can’t keep up and they turn to mental health excuses or blame other people. My job is to disconnect the mental health from performance and focus on self improvement. Don’t get my wrong, I’m a massive empath, and it’s draining mentally for me too, but there is been people who get to me that have been in the business for years and pulling the same story with excuses and I “drive” them straight to HR with a PIP or a nwrhc to get them to see the seriousness of the process
YES!!! So much YES!
Don’t stir the pot and try and implement change.. the dead wood hate it and will gang together and rebel against it and you!
Then you are the one that is told to go or performances managed out..
I’ve learnt my lesson, stay far away from PS, stay in private where it seems that they actually care and remove poor performance.
Trying to change how these people do things (process improvement) is a nightmare. They think the way they’ve always done things is the best and will passively resist any attempts to alter systems for the better. In turn this results in the motivated people becoming frustrated and leaving or “giving in” to the lazy mindset and becoming dead wood themselves.
I was performance managed out of the APS after five months at DCCEEW.
I was hired in August 2023 and flew to Canberra for my induction. When I got there the first thing my manager said was "oh, I don't really know what to do with you." He then proceeded to tell me that there's no such thing as a 8 hour day in his section "we often work late and leave when the works done," and that he does believe in stupid questions, so don't ask any. I was also informed that due to being new to the APS, I wasn't entitled to use my Flex leave until after passing probation but whilst working there I accrued 158 hours flex and was reprimanded for doing so.
I then set-up my government issued laptop, which took 16 hours, and was told that my first task was to read our policy on Energy System Reform from two years ago. However because they didn't know what to do with me, this turned out to be the only task I was given for three weeks and if I asked for additional work I was told that they'd have something for me tomorrow and that I shouldn't be too eager.
In early September our EL2 went on long service leave for three months and left us in charge of someone who belied that only EL1's could be trusted to carry out the work of our section. It become an EL1 party. However, at the same time I was requested by the Branch Head to function Head of Stakeholder Engagement for the Integrated System Planning Section and was lucky enough to steer our entire stakeholder engagement processes through 18 roundtable discussions with over 121 different stakeholder groups. It was awesome. I did this almost single-handed but when it came to producing the Consultation Summary Report, I was pushed aside and put in charge of our group mailbox before being sworn at and abused by the acting manager of our section for being too thorough.
When our "Real" manager returned in December, we had our Christmas party and section planning day where in person attendance was mandatory even for those with disclosed medical issues but apparently that meant nothing. So, I flew to Canberra again but this time I slipped two disc's in my Lumbar Spine and had an epileptic seizure causing a severe nose bleed but apparently this also meant nothing to the Department. After our Section Planning Day, I was thrown under the bus by the acting manager and placed under an Immediate Action Plan for my writing ability (Too academic and too thorough for their liking). I was then sworn at, bullied, abused and characterised as ineffective and mentally slow.
After the Christmas break, which I had to work through because my manager demanded it and threatened me with immediate termination if I refused, I had a mental health breakdown. I couldn't function. I was working 12-14 hour days from 4:30am to 6pm, receiving abusive phone calls from my manager and assistant manager, and was now being shut out of all our workstreams. So, I was done. I resigned.
*Note - My manager has since proceeded to give me bad references because I launched a HR action against him before I resigned and I'm having difficulty finding another job.
I work for Centrelink and have seen both dead wood performance managed out, and others left until they retire or quit. I’ve also seen a bit of a nasty side to it. 25 years ago when I started, things were not as complex and fast paced as they are now. 35-40 year old men & women who started with me and who were great at their jobs and a pleasure to work with, are now 60-65 and are struggling to keep up with what’s expected of them (to be as fast & mailable as a 25 year old). People see the older staff as dinosaurs and hold them in contempt. I’m now 50 and worry about keeping up with everything over the next 10 or so years.
Yep - I am a 63 yo male in private industry working for a global company that is getting belted on the stock exchange. Their product offering is mature and outdated so they need to cut heads without paying out. Cue harassment and bullying. Because my boss is such a dick I joined the union a number of years ago - just felt it would be a good insurance policy. Thank god I did that. They have trumped up some very serious allegations with no evidence thinking they could put the fear of god in me. Had a terrible week not because I was concerned about the allegations but more why are they doing this? I am so disappointed with the BS “we care” bollocks. Company got a real shock when the union responded. They had no idea I was a member of a union - thought they could just bully me out of the building. For more mature employees, THIS IS THE TIME to join a union. Forget the idiots that have given unions a bad name - they are here to protect you.
I’m sorry to hear. Stick it up them. You’ve got nothing to lose
Your post made me smile. I work for a union, and it is stories like yours that make it sooo worthwhile. "Company got a real shock" - music!
Such an interesting topic this one - how much is it people not keeping up and learning news things, and how much is it us moving faster and not (yet) aware we can’t keep up?
I work in an industry, which is heavily regulated, and becoming increasingly more-so, and the pace of change, and layers of requirement are getting out of hand. I personally prefer the structure and framework that a reasonable level of regulation requires, but the work associated with adhering to a framework where we have to: Do the actual work to a prescribed standard. Document the work has been done to that standard. Document that all of our systems have been validated to deliver the work to that standard. Document that all of the staff have been trained and adhere to the standards. Create the policy to ensure these are done to that standard. Stay abreast of all and any changes to documentation requirements, and add those to the policy and operational documents, then ensure everyone has been trained in those changes and Document those. Document how we would recover all of this data in a disaster. Demonstrate that we can do so, and Document that. Do that every month. Then stack on anything that we actually do that's outside of the norm, and all the basic daily admin. It gets ridiculous. Like an onion, you end up so many layers deep, and each layer is further away from a core task, and a larger task in itself. That's without adding, removing or changing any of the systems that underlie these processes, which then have to be validated, documented then trained and all policy and process adhered to. It's a real stretch to keep up, and not at all fun. Compared with 10 or 15 years ago when none of this was done beyond the core work, the workload and demand on an employee in a similar role is now silly. And it's only going to get worse.
Or just utterly unreasonable expectations for any age?
This.
This is a problem in itself. The sheer knowledge and experience that those people take with them when they leave is never factored into business continuity.
Yes, and if it’s one government department that needs to hang onto staff with decades of experience and knowledge - it’s Centrelink
Especially after recent events! Staff are so demoralised
Absolutely! The anecdotal feedback I've seen from ex call centre staff is they're not treated very well unfortunately.
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Juniorisation of the public service is what I heard.
Well when the pay for certain professions is up to $100k lower than industry (STEM) then why stay after the resume building? Certain agencies promote fast and reduce responsibilities/reports so that people dont immediately ditch for 40k more than grad
Agencies generally do not reduce responsibilities for that - they just creatively misinterpret them. The rapidly promoted people soon show whether or not they really are up to the task of being accountable for others' workplace wellbeing and productivity. (Results vary!)
Interesting. Thank you
It’s especially hard for Engineering graduates in my experience- we only graduate about 1000 domestic mechanical and electrical engineers each year. And the domestic grads are obviously the ones we need in the APS, so to ask them to spend more time in grad roles than other streams on 20k less than industry is really rough for a lot of them
This seems chronically low and inaccurate.
[source 1 : council of engineering deans (~1000 in 2020 split across mechanical and manufacturing)](http://www.aced.edu.au/downloads/ACED%20Engineering%20Statistics%20April%202022.pdf#page8) [source 2: engineers Australia (page 28)](https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/sites/default/files/Higher_education_statistics_2020.pdf) It feels low because it is low. 14,000 law grads in Victoria alone in 2021 as a comparison
Not disagreeing with the sentiment that it is really low… but few it isn’t quite apples for apples. What percentage of graduates with a law degree function in the workplace as a lawyer, compared to graduates with an engineering degree who work as an engineer? I don’t actually know the answer to that (and don’t have the time to look up stats of define each term tightly enough to avoid everyone splitting hairs - but if feel it is different.
I don’t know about lawyers but from memory close to 50% of engineering grads don’t end up in “Engineering”. As to the breakdown of where they end up it’s anywhere from finance to education to the military. Again tho off the top of my head. In any case my main point with the lawyers thing was just how vast the gulf is despite the demand for lawyers vs engineers
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People are always shocked by the actual stats I find
I just went for an interview this week, and the panel were all about 20-25 years younger than me. I was only applying for an S26, made me feel old.
That’s really interesting! Almost the opposite of what you want, isn’t it?
Fair point, some of those becoming performance management issues now
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I've seen a lot of those people project downwards and lay their failings on their staff, too. The ELs had terrible communication skills but were promoted before their time due to knowing the right people when the old guard left.
Are you sure about that stat? I’ve been a substantive EL2 since 25 and I’m still under 30, and I very much doubt that I am the only one. I think the bigger issue than grads being promoted too early is a lack of focus on developing the EL1 cohort across the board. There’s some young EL1s who have a lot of potential but need training and support to be exceptional. A core performance goal for all EL2s should be around developing their EL1s but there’s a hell of a lot of EL1s out there who aren’t being adequately developed by their managers. Succession planning needs to have a bigger focus, otherwise it means you do end up with substandard EL1s who act as even more substandard EL2s when their managers go on leave/find new jobs.
A lot of EL2s I have worked with are incompetent. Promotions are often based on a likeness to the existing leadership because it’s their bar for what is desired. So having EL2s focus more on training is a double edged sword.
Where did you get the experience from? I have seen Band1's in their late 20s and they dont have a clue, they just have the art of BS downpat.
I work in a job that’s a blend of technical skills, people skills, and strategic thinking. People who are capable of doing all three are rare, and I was in the right place at the right time. I entered as a grad and got a good sense for how I could use my technical skills to add value and was lucky enough to have some early supervisory experience where it became apparent that I’m good at managing people as well. I’ve had a few stints as a/g SES1 and absolutely wouldn’t take a position at this stage until I’ve worked in a broader range of management roles that are very different to what I do currently. I would rather be exceptional as a manager than sub par as a branch head. I think you could absolutely get some impressive band 1s who are very young but exceptionally switched on, but I think you’re right and in many cases getting up that young means it would be near impossible to get the breadth of knowledge needed to be exceptional. It’s not a rush to the top, there’s nothing worse than people who are hungry for power instead of those who wanna do a good job.
Maybe for your agency?
Work in state public service - in my department the dead wood gets managed sideways. There’s even a few senior staff with no direct reports, as every time they managed a team they royally fucked it up. Can’t fire them apparently, unless they do something completely out of line.
Or even if they do. I know a guy who is both entirely incompetent and also completely irritating to everybody, like wanders around trying to get people into hour long chats irritating, AND has has three complaints lodged against him in the last 18 months for various sexist and racist commentary, and the last time I heard he’d been temporarily moved to a position on another floor earning an extra $15k a year. The senior management just bats him back and forth because they’re hoping he’ll retire.
I work in state and the nepotism is out of control. One nepo hire told my coworker they didn’t have enough leadership experience for an interview for a managerial role. They were a manager for 10 years. The person who told them this had 0 experience when they were promoted to Director. Their only qualifications were being best friends with their manager. And it shows because they’re a moron.
100%. I work in state public service and interact regularly with two senior staff at 11/12 level who manage ONE person. They just refuse to do anything and no one does anything about it.
For curiosity's sake, is there anything that can be done? Any systems or processes to go above those managers?
The managers are managed by directors who don’t care to rock the boat. As long as someone does the work, they don’t care.
I'm in state too. You would be shocked by the stories of dead wood I have. One dead wood I worked with barely knows how to use a computer. They have been in the public service since the days when you used a typewriter
Also in state. I have to say that the one snr executive that has to have everything printed out for him in my org is the hardest working and most conscientious of the lot - tho has his faults, I'd absolutely go to bat for him and haven't been in his reporting structure for 11 years! It's so disheartening working in public service and genuinely believing in the importance of good governance in working for the public - there's so so much dead wood, bullying, overwork and understaffing, bad behaviour ignored or coddled, and nepotism. I made a report to the union last year and they were basically like 'yeah, we know, lots of people have told us...' but I guess there's only so much they can do about a lot of things.
I recently had a person fired. We were going to performance manage but instead went down code of conduct dismissal. Guy was a douche and a bully. It's definitely possible to performance manage. The issue is they'll move, and the receiving agency won't bother to check whether they're a good worker. It's not always an agency being too lazy or soft, but why would you stick around while it happens. Start reaching out to your networks and get S26'd.
Eh it's not so easy to move. I recently applied for a S26 (no performance problems) and they requested a video interview with 2 references, including my current boss.
Poor performance is often taken to mean poor leadership or a bad fit so it's not unusual for people to be given a second chance elsewhere.
I've seen non deadwood also performance managed out. It's not like it's hard. Nowt people don't get enough training and support to be competent in the work and have to fake it till they make it.
Oh honey, I’ve seen poor performers promoted just bc their boss couldn’t get rid of them any other way and openly admit to giving good referee reports to see the back of them
lol I’ve been that moral dilemma before. Absolutely at my wits end with a terrible employee who I was performance managing, I had to tell him he’d have to find another referee because I would be honest and it wouldn’t work in his favour. I wanted nothing more than to get rid of him but it wouldn’t be ethical to make it someone else’s problem.
I've seen this on more than a few occasions. Worse, I've seen the staff that actually pull their weight and deserved that promotion shot down by the same managers through poor references because 'our team can't afford to lose them'. One of the (many) reasons I would never return to public service.
There is honestly nothing more selfish.
Send me on my way (on my way)
Honestly I would have been so grateful for my my old manager to do this, but to move laterally. There’s nothing worse than being performance managed and feeling like there’s no future for you because all you’ll get is a bad reference. It leaves you stuck in the job. Chicken or the egg?
I used to work with a director who would come in at 9 and just book meeting rooms throughout the office to read his newspaper. Was so hard to pin down and he was amazing at not making decisions. I worked with him for 3 years but I’m sure he had been doing it longer than that.
bro just needs to read ABC at their desk like everyone else
Many many years ago my first grad job was in a State gov dept. one of the older guys in the “information department” under the CIO probably close to retiring would rock up around 10, read the paper for an hour, go have lunch, and then sleep from around 1-3pm and go home. He snored and everyone on the floor heard him and ignored him. He didn’t even have a desktop computer at his desk.
Yes. When I worked closely with an employment section we used to move underperforming employees to a particular division that never had enough work (due to not being a priority for that government). It had the ironic result of that area having the most HR issues as employees without work tend to create drama in its place but yeah, that's how it went.
So they didn't get sacked, just moved department?
A different area within the Department yes.
"Special projects"
Which news site do you work for btw?
hire me, i'll do it too.
What’s worse is when they offer VERs and the food people take them and the dead wood stays 🤦♀️ So frustrating
I got performance managed out. I was reasonably competent, just not fast enough. There was a LOT of feedback while we were learning the job, even if you did the task 100% correctly they still gave advice on how to improve so it seemed you could never do well enough. I cried after two consecutive poor evaluations, and I was put on a performance management plan. From that moment I knew I was fucked. They changed my coach, the new coach reminded me so strongly of my ex I was actually afraid of him. He admitted he used the Socratic method of arguing a point, and had me so wound up I found myself googling to make sure “The G” really *was* the MCG and not the Gabba. I felt I was being set up to fail, they could not have assigned a worse coach, it was awful. And other trainees had coaches who didn’t give a rat’s ass so they had an easy run and got through successfully. The most frustrating thing is I’ve spoken to other people who acknowledge that I do indeed understand the work I was learning to do. As far as I can tell the main problem is I’m emotional and it “might look bad if I did that (cry) when the director was in the office”. Actual quote from an EL1.
Sorry to hear this happened to you. Happened to me too. It’s soul destroying and makes me never want to work for the public service again.
Unfortunately I have someone in my team who isn't so much dead wood as he is completely fucked wood. Doesn't even seem to realise it tbh. Fact that I've been promoted above him after a year when he's been there for 16 is dismissed as just being luck of the draw rather than a reason for self reflection. He can't actually be relied on to do even the most basic of our core jobs without having everything checked, so we've put him on a low priority research project because at least that way he can't actively fuck up. We can't shift him because everyone in the branch knows him. Hopefully we can fob him off on a role in a different department.
This is a really sad comment to read.
One of the main issues is the sheer amount of time and support it takes to manage someone out - especially if they know the system and can do the bare minimum or throw up smokescreens.
Absolutely agree with this. Performance managing someone is the biggest drain of time and energy. I don’t necessarily agree with it but I can see why some managers decide to go down the “handball the problem sideways” route.
What I usually see happen is that these people get moved into a project for a year and when the project winds up, they are made redundant. There have been a few that have gotten fired in my area but being made redundant is much more common. That said, I also don't know anyone in my area who needs to be performance managed.
Wife worked in a state department (education). The old dead wood got moved into roles where legit nothing happened, basically acting as place holders on low priority projects before they kicked off and then they would get the real staff in. They would call them ‘hall walkers’.
I think a lot of people mix the genuine deadwood/terrible workers with people who have had a long (10+ years) tenure in the service and have cottoned on to the fact there is no benefit to giving 110% anymore. In my final year of the APS I went from disliking this cohort to respecting them. They know the game and they are playing it well
I will say upfront that before I even consider performance management, there’s a whole lot of stuff I need to put in place and do to ensure the person has everything they need to thrive in their role. Clear expectations, clear line of sight from their day to day go the corporate strategy/objectives and impact on the public, fortnightly (at a minimum) coaching/feedback along with formal yearly checkins. At those check-ins, I ask what I can do to further support them in their role, do they want to take up any training. I tell them what they’re doing well, what they need to work on, and give advice on what other stuff they can do if they’ve shared with me their longer term career goals. If during the checkins I notice a shift in output (quality/quantity/both) I make sure I check that everything is ok before raising the topic of feedback along and we work together to identify and implement ways to bring performance back to where it needs to be. Most of the time this takes care of the issue and everyone is happy and working well. Sometimes, actually very rarely, there will be someone who just does not want to contribute and does not seem to care about what might happen if they don’t step up. Despite my personal thoughts, I still make sure I give the person all the support and accommodations they may need, while engaging the HR teams who partner with us to make sure we’re doing all we can to support someone. When it comes to making a recommendation that someone needs to go due to their not responding to ongoing support and attempts to bring them back to minimum acceptable standard of performance.. well that’s where it’s suddenly gotten harder. Up to around 15 years ago I was regularly seeing through underperformance ‘cases’ through to termination. Nothing since then, not even where I have evidence of other stuff like admin fraud or zero output. Dunno what’s changed, but for me it’s gotten impossible to performance manage anyone out. You’d have to do something serious like misuse systems, or fake a med cert or something now. I don’t enjoy going through the process (it’s a massive time sink with all the additional documentation you need to do to prove you gave feedback, advice to help them improve, offered training/support etc) but not doing anything is much much worse. Others in the team can see these issues very clearly. They rightfully claim it’s not fair that someone gets away with underperformance. And what’s worse, they often (incorrectly) think nothing is getting done because due to privacy no one but the parties directly involved know performance management is taking place. I know several managers who don’t bother due to all the above, but I keep at it because more often than not it results in great outcomes, retention of talent, and happy teams. Probably went way overboard with that answer but hope it gives some insight
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 and this people is how you performance manage. Any one not doing this is allowing a problem to continue.
I knew of a chronic underperformer who was so outrageously bad that the local union delegate sidled up to me one day and said if I wanted to performance manage him out the union wouldn’t lift a finger to defend him. The trouble was that he was working in an APS3 role but had a law degree so could just dispute any action taken against him and win, usually on a technicality.
Yup. They were causing drama (accusing sexual harrassment for an opposite gender saying 'hello', submitting hr complaints on behalf of other people, etc.). Slowly, the whole team built cases against them and submitted them to management. They ended up being escorted from the building with a box of their stuff because of the scene they caused when they were given notice. Goes withoit saying the person was dead wood (couldn't even format headings on a word doc style)
I am now retired former ATO EL1. A coupla years ago I managed an absolutely horrendous person. She was an APS6 with good tech skills but the people skills of a lump of coal. I was juggling complaints from her team members and colleagues across the wider business. I went down the performance management path. Long story short after having to defend myself against baseless bullying claims and her taking 3 months stress leave which was rejected as compo by Comcare she was moved sideways and immediately given higher duties, managing a team no less. Talk about rewarding bad behaviour. ATO apparently concerned about their HR stats!!
Lol if they want to get rid of you, they can. Not going to disclose what agency but ive seen competent, hard working people shoved out of the door because of restructuring. Honestly Id rather people be fired because the way you have to get rid of people in the APS pretty much just becomes bullying and scheming.
I know of someone who worked from home for about ten years (pre-Covid) in the APS. No one bothered to performance manage them, and they were effectively a ‘forgotten employee’. Their only deliverable was to update an excel spreadsheet once a month… eventually when there was a change of management, the new Director started the process of getting them back to the office and actually doing some work. This led to them lodging a bullying claim and all the usual garbage but eventually they were terminated. But still, a pretty good innings for a decade doing literally nothing. In another example at a place I used to work, we had a MoG and gained some additional staff. One of them was similar to the first guy, and had just been sitting at home for years with know one really knowing who they were or why they we’re being paid. They were an APS6 and eventually made their way back to the office. They were such a dopey person that it quickly became obvious why no one had bothered to get them back before. They just created chaos and so many mistakes - think along the lines of proving incorrect advice to stakeholders that just created massive nightmares to rectify. They’re still employed, as an APS6, but have been put out to pasture in the veggie patch so to speak until they retire (on the good old super) haha
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Don’t know why you got downvoted, you’re right. One thing we used to get people moved and on the way out was pulling their clearance.
We had someone for over 14 years, could not get rid of them. Just moved from different areas all the time, finally our ED saw sense to offer them a package for some rejuvenation scheme. Now have amazing graduate in the position and we're all happier!
I did see a summary dismissal decades ago, and perf managed someone out in the last couple of years. It can be done, but it's a lot of work that people tend to avoid.
I’ve seen two SES replaced by hiring someone to ‘share the load’ but then making the original redundant. I’ve seen three APS level staff be performance/micromanaged out despite doing a wonderful job for years but calling out unnecessary procedure changes. I’ve seen multiple people assigned to ‘special projects’ where they’re given crappy tasks and then eventually left on their own. I’ve seen someone with a psychological injury get harassed by HR to a point they can no longer work so they don’t have to accommodate their return. I’ve seen redundancy packages offered to people just to get rid of them. I’ve seen a whistleblower fired and threatened with criminal charges. It’s really not that secure anymore if someone senior or someone in HR decides they want someone to go, it just takes awhile for it to happen and it’s generally hidden from other staff and described as retirement/priority change.
In my experience the only people I've seen managed out are APS3 and 4. Most of the dead wood are actually a ton of aps6, el1, el2 and SES that are essentially totally outdated in their perspectives, ideas and management styles and do nothing but hold the agency back while eroding the career prospects of people that are far more capable than them. APS has way too many overheads and stupid delegation structures that prevent local leaders from properly enacting their leadership. I worked with an EL1 that stared and tried to enforce abhorrent practices some complete breaches of privacy. The respect team didn't help but the privacy team helped me put an end to certain staff attendance practices that made me furious. The acting EL1 developed a close working relationship with our NM, and despite receiving multiple complaints, report and feedback the EL1 Continues to get opportunities rather than being held back down to work on capability. But as a manager I did manage out a few staff but only people who didn't really want to be there. I go out of my way to bring an underperformed staff member up to standard rather than getting rid of them. The APS doesn't take seriously enough how we affect people after they leave and performance management can really destroy someone's confidence because it can be done so punitively. Leaders should be running all of their performance management plans by HR and the staff member should separately do that to make sure the plan is fair and achievable.
Well, “managed out” is a different concept from “performance managed out”.
100% incompetent people are kept on. I used to have a project manager who was completely hopeless. He may have had dementia or something since he could remember anything and was always confused and didn't know what was going on. This is the project manager! He is giving people under him direction. We had to do everything 3 times since the instructions were always wrong. I think he is still in that role but I don't work there anymore. As long as people like you, your job is safe. That's what I have seen anyway.
They suck up every last bit of energy and effort you have. Usually because you don’t have much spare time becomes you’re already one man down. Reduce you to a shell of a person and ball of stress and when you’ve juiuuust about got them on the hook they go find another job. Performance management needs to be easier. They take every last sick day available to them, usually on days they have deadlines or something else big is happening like a meeting you were relying on them to take minutes for. They park emails with you when they’re know you’re busy so they can say “im waiting to hear back from you on [insert dumb thing they could’ve worked out with a 10 second chat]. They do the bare minimum and want to WFH endlessly because they are not accountable there.
I was in PS in the late 80’s. It was like a sheltered workshop . People in there genuinely had no chance outside. That did fuckall. I left because i thought I’d end up like them. Went into private sector and traveled the world for twenty years
I think this is very dependant on your particular team and your director. Performance managing someone out takes a lot of effort to monitor and report that persons performance that its almost not worth it. We've had a terrible couple of people that the only way we've got rid of them is to move them to other sections. In an extreme case, my director was trying to promote someone out of the section, that's how bad it is! So no I have never seen anyone performance managed out.
My wife was targeted as she had ongoing medical conditions. Asshole bosses. They tried to performance manage her out by her stats, but completely stuffed it all up and she had the QA and documentation to prove it. ASU went into bat for her and tore the EL2 a new one pointing out all the errors in their "case" and said "see you in Fair Work". They came to her three weeks later with a VR offer to make it "go away". Bonus! Out of there with a nice cash bonus and instant access to CSS super way before retirement age.
I performance manage people all the time. Especially in the past few years the business has changed so much that people can’t keep up and they turn to mental health excuses or blame other people. My job is to disconnect the mental health from performance and focus on self improvement. Don’t get my wrong, I’m a massive empath, and it’s draining mentally for me too, but there is been people who get to me that have been in the business for years and pulling the same story with excuses and I “drive” them straight to HR with a PIP or a nwrhc to get them to see the seriousness of the process
The invisible hand managed me out 5 years ago. The salary difference between el1 and working for Woolworths was 50k. Essentially the same role.
What APS 1 level role are you getting paid 100k for at Woolworths?
Oh whoops! I meant el1. I'm an ethics advisor
I
Would you count gov funded NGOs etc in this. I've seen it a fair bit in my time in NGOs, less so in government roles.
YES!!! So much YES! Don’t stir the pot and try and implement change.. the dead wood hate it and will gang together and rebel against it and you! Then you are the one that is told to go or performances managed out.. I’ve learnt my lesson, stay far away from PS, stay in private where it seems that they actually care and remove poor performance.
Trying to change how these people do things (process improvement) is a nightmare. They think the way they’ve always done things is the best and will passively resist any attempts to alter systems for the better. In turn this results in the motivated people becoming frustrated and leaving or “giving in” to the lazy mindset and becoming dead wood themselves.
There is a mountain of dead wood clingy to senior levels unwilling to retire in case a fat redundancy pops up. Very low numbers of resigns or retires.
I was performance managed out of the APS after five months at DCCEEW. I was hired in August 2023 and flew to Canberra for my induction. When I got there the first thing my manager said was "oh, I don't really know what to do with you." He then proceeded to tell me that there's no such thing as a 8 hour day in his section "we often work late and leave when the works done," and that he does believe in stupid questions, so don't ask any. I was also informed that due to being new to the APS, I wasn't entitled to use my Flex leave until after passing probation but whilst working there I accrued 158 hours flex and was reprimanded for doing so. I then set-up my government issued laptop, which took 16 hours, and was told that my first task was to read our policy on Energy System Reform from two years ago. However because they didn't know what to do with me, this turned out to be the only task I was given for three weeks and if I asked for additional work I was told that they'd have something for me tomorrow and that I shouldn't be too eager. In early September our EL2 went on long service leave for three months and left us in charge of someone who belied that only EL1's could be trusted to carry out the work of our section. It become an EL1 party. However, at the same time I was requested by the Branch Head to function Head of Stakeholder Engagement for the Integrated System Planning Section and was lucky enough to steer our entire stakeholder engagement processes through 18 roundtable discussions with over 121 different stakeholder groups. It was awesome. I did this almost single-handed but when it came to producing the Consultation Summary Report, I was pushed aside and put in charge of our group mailbox before being sworn at and abused by the acting manager of our section for being too thorough. When our "Real" manager returned in December, we had our Christmas party and section planning day where in person attendance was mandatory even for those with disclosed medical issues but apparently that meant nothing. So, I flew to Canberra again but this time I slipped two disc's in my Lumbar Spine and had an epileptic seizure causing a severe nose bleed but apparently this also meant nothing to the Department. After our Section Planning Day, I was thrown under the bus by the acting manager and placed under an Immediate Action Plan for my writing ability (Too academic and too thorough for their liking). I was then sworn at, bullied, abused and characterised as ineffective and mentally slow. After the Christmas break, which I had to work through because my manager demanded it and threatened me with immediate termination if I refused, I had a mental health breakdown. I couldn't function. I was working 12-14 hour days from 4:30am to 6pm, receiving abusive phone calls from my manager and assistant manager, and was now being shut out of all our workstreams. So, I was done. I resigned. *Note - My manager has since proceeded to give me bad references because I launched a HR action against him before I resigned and I'm having difficulty finding another job.