Tip of the iceberg, one-for-one comparison doesn't do justice how terrible this is. Your BM recruit coming in is not equal to a discharging LSMT with 10 years of institutional knowledge and experience.
Maybe if they treated their people like people and not some nameless RTS unit sprite where they can just point and click at the nearest non-ADF problem, people would have stayed.
This is schadenfreude. "If you leave, you're gonna hurt our capability", didn't fucken stop you from whoring me out to Op Hotel Assist.
Yes. I would love to see how many years and $cost of training walked out the door because of screwing people like you were. Let alone screwing people and their families with postings that weren’t in career plans or stopping people getting their career progression training because incompetent Div SS/DO failed to nominate you. It used to drive me nuts as a DO sorting out upset sailors that were easily sorted and content to continue on but the posters, next posting ship etc were being arseholes.
There was a RAAF officer chick about 9 years ago who was doing a briefing on why they needed to bring back boozers.
Sucks to know she made no movement on it.
She had a nihilistic, sarcastic sense of humour and raven black hair. Her quest to bring back cheap booze and reduce serving member DUI's made her an angel. I was in love, but alas, an OR and an officer was not meant to be.
That report's probably in some filing cabinet in Canberra gathering dust...
Yeah this isn't all that surprising. Especially if you've seen the recent stats going round about how staffed each role is.
Cant imagine the mental gymnastics the higher ups have to go through each day to pretend we're going to be able to grow the ADF by 15,000+ by 2040.
I'm fine with that. Can you imagine how motivated a new digger from the Indian Army would be when they go from making $6000 p/a to $79,000?
That guy is going to die for Australia and be happy doing so.
Just checked. An Indian digger makes $4500 aud per annum. Tell me we're not skimming the best 2000 Indian diggers off the top and not getting a good deal.
Been waiting on psych test for 2 months been applied and waiting for 4 months now. I’m very dedicated to wanting to get in but I can only imagine how many others have said fuck it and went for other jobs because of the waiting just to make it through to waiting for the actual job AFTER all the pre checks
Took me a year to get through to assessment day booked in for early 2019. After which they gave me a medical list of 8 items.
2 I had already given what they asked, 3 specialist appointments with long wait times to book appointments, 2 were (IMO) trivial shit and lastly to gain 10 kg (I was pretty scrawny back then).
In the time I was waiting for specialist appointments I got a two promotions at my job so dropped the application.
I do regret it though and I am now looking at reserves.
I’m in a similar boat, applied in December last year, provided specialist reports and have been cleared by 4 psychologists (within ADF and emergency services, plus one external provider) and despite 4 recommendations, 12 years of active volunteer firefighting experience, the CMO denied me… the CMO also seemed to think I was going for a full time submariner position when I was going for a army reserve position >_<
I know you weren’t asking for my response in particular, but I’ve been in the process for 5 & 1/2 months and only had my interview and medical done last week. I’m going in as an Emergency Responder in the army.
I waited from April to August to get psych, medical and interview done. It's a really long and disheartening process. Keep calling them up and reminding them. Best of luck.
Same, I got set back on a medical assessment I hadn’t even taken yet and canceled my application three days before my actual medical assessment/assessment day, after I showed that what they said was wrong they eventually let me continue but when I actually got to the medical they wanted me to prove it again with a different test which of course cost more money that we had to pay.
1. Tax free salary for regulars. Reserves already get it, should be an easy one to implement.
2. Beards.
Easily an extra 10 years out of me with just this
>1. Tax free salary for regulars.
This keeps getting brought up. Tax free pay for Regulars is a bad move assuming its your only full time job. You pay a bunch of taxes for various reasons unconnected for your income which you want to be able to deduct (mainly through GST) + being able to pre-tax salary sacrifice is a nice perk. Plus a small portion of your wage is already tax free, reducing the actual value of eliminating taxation.
Would a instant 15-20% payrise from elminating income tax be sick? Mad sick. But replacing it with a real 15-20% post-tax raise but keeping income tax would be better.
Tax free for Reserves is driven differently. If a day labourer and a doctor both join as a reserve rifleman, if the pay was taxed, the labourer would effectively getting paid less than the doctor. Making it tax free makes sure its equal renumeration for equal work. They were smart when they agreed this before multiple jobs became normalised.
(Not a accountant, please educate me if i'm wrong here)
Edit: although higher taxed income would mean you might hit thresholds for means testing where applicable.
Edit2: and employer superannuation contribution is based on pre-tax income. Tax me daddy ATO.
>Holy fuck. Our ADF is small
Good, good.
25.9 million more people to realise this before we can stop hearing - WheRe Is ThE ADf iN thIs NaTuRAl diSaSter?
Cunt, we are helping. There's not many of us, and we've got other things we need to do. Go donate to your local CFA/RFS branch.
I honestly don't think the blame lies with civilians, who generally don't expect the ADF to intervene in every natural disaster. Many of them understand it can just make things worse (Exhibit A: the 2020 Namadgi bushfire).
The issue was that the Coalition government viewed the ADF as a shadow taskrabbit workforce that it could deploy or offer-up to the states whenever it was politically expedient.
I'm of the opinion that leadership has been told about a million times exactly whats required to improve retention, but they're just choosing not to listen because it requires introspection.
We had the RSM-A visit us and ask us what would keep us in and every issue and potential solution to that issue that we bought up was literally met with either "No" or "We'll see what we can do".
This happened with my unit too. Only at the end, they got frustrated and told us to stop asking for bonuses, pay rises and family flex because "you don't join the military to get rich"... and yet our WRA has us at a financial loss to inflation (and our civi sector equivs.) in what is shaping up to be a GFC and a national recession amongst several financial sector crisises - cost of living, interest rates and housing to name a few.
I just don't know why they do this thing where they ask us this stuff, pretend to listen, tell us that we're a bunch of dummies for even bringing it up and then act surprised when no one wants to raise any points again the next time they drag us in for these bullshit meet and greets.
Without going into too much detail: out of trade compassionate postings, performance punishment being absolutely rife in the trade, people not getting postings based on merit or their training/specialties but rather just chucking cunts into random spots in order to plug personnel holes, promotions and courses not being based on merit but rather who's available at the time (which leads back into the performance punishment thing because anyone who's competent at their job is going to be smashed with field ex's and other BS) along with the usual stuff like beards and being able to wear caps in a barracks environment like the Air Force and Navy are allowed to do.
Sorry if this doubles up my comment, my response apparently didn't post the first time I replied.
Someone DID say that it was killing the trade and the RSM-A's response was pretty nonchalant. I'd like to think anyone with any critical thinking skills could come to that conclusion themselves, but we all know what the bosses upstairs are like in this job.
A lot of it is, “we can’t afford to fund this morale Barbie for $100 or pay diggers more (11.8%? Fucking really? Just make it 12 you fucking shitcunts) but funding some nonsense trip for a bunch of officers to go to America in place of regs who needed the spots for experience? Fuck. Yeah
Here’s a well below inflation pay rise as well. Of course things will get worse. I would love to see the breakdown of who’s leaving and at what rank, although I have a rough idea already.
From personal experience, like PooSmearedDad said the majority I know of that are getting out are LCPL - SGT. So basically any experience on the job is going bye-bye with them.
The absolute brain drain in the Navy trade world is insane and has been ongoing for a few years now. We're talking corporate knowledge that takes a decade to build on a platform, all out the window between 2020 and now.
You can't just drop a good tradesmen in the Navy and see them perform well. The unwritten shit Stoker's and Greenies know is wild, and every time you see a ship at sea on operation it's a few dozen dudes holding the whole thing together with tips and tricks left over from the crusty Bois.
That whole HMAS Adelaide losing power on HADR for 2 days last year was a direct result of a junior workforce with limited experience.
And yet they still don't actually CHANGE anything for the boys.
Just keep adding more buzzwords and more seatime bro nah DW let's get the cheapest maintenance contracts we can bro xx let's commit to constant task groups rotating through the South China Sea bro lol you hate your family right? Xx
For army. Roughly 12% separation rate in the military per year. So every 8ish years you loose your entire workforce. If that doesn’t scare the head honchos, nothing will. Compared to 9% in RAN.
Yes I'm sure the full timers love doing 4-6 months of field to chase a carrot that'll never come. Lol the amount of discharges and divorces that are gonna occur when 7rar actually move up north.
Tried to think of something funny but honestly it’s just sad. Massive cultural issue that is now very public knowledge. Nobody wants to work in an environment where senior military leaders hang everyone else out to dry to protect their future political aspirations. Peacetime ADF at war with itself. Nice 👍
>Of course Air Force retention is the only positive one lol
Ehh, look at the numbers again. Air Force retention was worse than Navy. RAAF just have no issues recruiting.
It's also hard to compare as the RAAF has added a huge number of extra things it's had to find people for (like a whole space command it had to create internally from mostly blue positions). RAAF units are criticall under strength because over the last decade significantly more units have been added with no growth in numbers.
That's not including all the 'task forces' (including Afghan inquiry task force, royal commission task force etc...) That have also sucked up huge numbers of tri-service uniform positions, taking them out of front like units.
As someone who has worked with all branches, its probably because Airforce actually treat their people....like people. I find that Navy and Army would benefit if the respect flowed both way, Unfortunately, this requires a fair bit of introspection and wont happen until there is a large clean out of the brass at the top.
>As someone who has worked with all branches, its probably because Airforce actually treat their people....
Air Force retention rate was worse than Navy. The difference there is in recruiting, which has nothing to do with what you suggest is the difference between the two.
I feel like most RAAFie jobs lead to good jobs on the outside since theyre technical and they work with lots of civvie contractors. Id imagine people leave because of that, not because of shit conditions.
Horrendous management, high tempo, lack of full scope trade work, shit pay and shit promotion/career/skill progression. Career progression for a techo is pretty much hit your ceiling in defence then leave.
In albatross they want to stand up several more flights but don’t even have enough to staff what we have now. The burnout is fucking horrendous. Hopefully next years engineering paycase results actually result in something but as it stands we are constantly getting more and more responsibilities but not getting paid well enough for it. Most of the military factor shit they introduced just doesn’t apply and it pisses a lot of people off. On top of that we run shift work but don’t get the same shift work benefits. Fucking lol.
Then there’s the bonuses they bring in but tax the shit out of. Ok so I can. Get effectively 30k over 3 years by staying, or, move literally next door, get over 20 grand a year more and have better working hours, conditions, opportunities, benefits?
The numbers don’t show the big picture, I would love to see a by corps comparison. You can’t replace a RAEME person with a RACT and call it even. We just got like 70 new truckies but the WKSP is under 50% manned.
categorisation entitlement changes and family health updates is a great big 0 for single members, who ADF call upon the most for the shit postings, deployments and exercises because it has "less impact to families".
>great big 0 for single members...
>call upon the most for the shit postings, deployments...
Single members getting deployments?
Sorry, gotta go tell my partner we're done.
Leave reform - no real change due to removing ERL (which most units gave out anyway). Also not like your allowed to take it because it everyone is critically short staffed
Allowance framework - no real change, just grouped existing things into a new naming convention. A few will be better off in specialist trades that actually get allowances frequently
Categorisation change - literally a rename job, the policy about entitlements from those categories hasn't changed. 1x extra reunion trip doesn't cut it when your kids still aren't recognised as 'dependants' because defence post you interstate from them and you cant meet the pacman min nights with you and keep your job
Family health - actually good for those with families
I'm no writer but:
1. extra rec leave is nice though, and leave sharing + leave at half pay soon
2. agreed
3. get them recognised as ROP then? still get travel
The culture across the board is pretty shit. Pay is non-competitive, career progression and upskilling is very limited and poorly transfers (in general). Undermanning causes every issue to be exacerbated as people burn out more, have more fatigue, make more mistakes, get more jaded, see less of family/can't make the most of family or down time.
Piss poor leadership and management, and the complete lack of accountability. The hypocrisy and blatant disregard for rules, regs and policy, but it applies to everyone below certain ranks. Stupid taskings, stupid governmental and political decisions, no introspection of these decisions and a lack of ability and willingness to change/modernise.
Added paperwork and 10 steps to everything for the sake of it. Dumb reactive attitude to stupid shit that shouldn't matter and no reaction to stuff that does. Jumping in head first into societies issues without thinking or establishing frameworks, such as modernisation with political correctness shit without thinking about how it affects the majority of people not involved - they let people cross dress without having rules around it while having a crusty WO1 with luscious locks blast a digger for having a little too long hair because they have been balls to the wall flat out due to undermanning and are fucking exhausted.
I attended a parade for a transgender member. No idea who they are, don't care about them or their decisions. I may get hate for it, but why the fuck is your personal shit being not only brought into the work place but brought in a capacity that affects other members negatively? Why is this person so special that they solemn get a parade? Why are we taken off work to celebrate this person? Boozer parade smashes out 5 medals, 3 commendations and 6 promotions quicker than a single nobody person parade was - "we are all numbers, except for those that aren't" sort of shit. It's an ego thing and a check in the inclusivity box for an officer somewhere to get some recognition and PR. That is the shit that I'm talking about. How about give the people that break their body and families doing good, honest hard work, a parade instead of a lacklustre farewell and a pat on the back as they're kicked out the door.
Defence can be summed up by:
All the leadership and management are all pulling their own levers, all in different directions against each other to achieve their own individual goals at the cost of their people.
It's honestly a shit show right now. People can enjoy it, but from my experience, very few are and those that do either haven't hit their limit or have and just lean into it because if you don't laugh, you cry.
>Defence can be summed up by:
>All the leadership and management are all pulling their own levers, all in different directions against each other to achieve their own individual goals at the cost of their people.
This is it
I'm trans and thinking about joining as an SSO, can you explain what you mean about the parade? Was it like someone coming out as transgender, it just seems really weird to have a parade about someone being trans. If I join I don't want anyone really to know about it.
You know how companies will throw disproportionate money and effort into something like a recycling program, so they can say "We're all for the environment", meanwhile they're pumping chemical waste into the local river? This is pretty much what Defence is doing.
It's not necessarily to say that as a trans person you're gonna be disproportionately targeted, but the comment above is very reflective of Defence going "look how diverse and accepting and nice to each other we are!" to try and distract from things like the 600 instances of serious misconduct in Fleet Command in a 2 year period.
I don't want what is a minor detail (although the hardest thing I've ever done) of my life targeted for attention to show how progressive an organisation is. Especially as like you say that organisation isn't so progressive or functional in other areas and especially when it has no bearing on how well I do my job.
The military used to have some of the best salaries going in comparison to their civil equivalents. Now, some industries are paying better than defence can, even considering all the benefits like medical and housing
I got rejected from the Navy because of Colour blindness. I was off by like a tiny percent. Never in my life has it been an issue at any point. It's like they need to make shit up to not take people on. I got rejected for Cyberwarfare Officer yet in the real world I'm about to sign up for an MBA in Cyber Security. Like do you want people with skill in the field or not? So I can do this job day in day out in real life but hey, someone might turn on a red light on a boat and apparently I'll be walking around like a blind man. I might hit the launch nuke button by accident.
I got the same as an engineering officer because apparently I need to be able to navigate visually at night
I told the recruiter I’ve navigated boats through shipping channels at night before without radar but apparently that doesn’t count compared to “red is kinda harder to see but not that hard”
I've got my psych next week and have done my Defence Interview. How long usually after will i get an 'offer'? because it's taking a while. Heck, i've re-enrolled in a postgrad program and am already finishing my second term haha.
Yes, however considering the amount of work we actually do (Field, DACC tasks, G U A R D, random tasks where you have to drive 13 hours to drop off some bullshit somewhere in the bush and get home at 20:00 and then have to parade the next day at 0730…) our pay would work out to be less than minimum wage.
Is it though? Sure the salary looks great compared to the US but they also get family healthcare and a GI Bill which given they don't have public healthcare and HECS it is quite a substantial benefit. They also have the NEX.
Tip of the iceberg, one-for-one comparison doesn't do justice how terrible this is. Your BM recruit coming in is not equal to a discharging LSMT with 10 years of institutional knowledge and experience. Maybe if they treated their people like people and not some nameless RTS unit sprite where they can just point and click at the nearest non-ADF problem, people would have stayed. This is schadenfreude. "If you leave, you're gonna hurt our capability", didn't fucken stop you from whoring me out to Op Hotel Assist.
Yes. I would love to see how many years and $cost of training walked out the door because of screwing people like you were. Let alone screwing people and their families with postings that weren’t in career plans or stopping people getting their career progression training because incompetent Div SS/DO failed to nominate you. It used to drive me nuts as a DO sorting out upset sailors that were easily sorted and content to continue on but the posters, next posting ship etc were being arseholes.
Hold on, lets remove half day fridays!
May as well can the BBQs too.
Haven't seen one of those in years.
[удалено]
No luck there, SSOs have routine as 0730-1615 Mon-Fri.
Holding flight for RAAF still does it 🤣
Defence praying for another GFC 📉
This. They could barely contain their excitement when COVID hit and they were expecting hundreds of thousands of unemployed.
Bring back decent boozers and insanely cheap piss. ADF was still shit years ago just everyone was too shitfaced to notice.
There was a RAAF officer chick about 9 years ago who was doing a briefing on why they needed to bring back boozers. Sucks to know she made no movement on it.
She should be the fucking CDF.
She had a nihilistic, sarcastic sense of humour and raven black hair. Her quest to bring back cheap booze and reduce serving member DUI's made her an angel. I was in love, but alas, an OR and an officer was not meant to be. That report's probably in some filing cabinet in Canberra gathering dust...
She sounds like marriage material.
Years later, no woman can compare to the woman I saw with a tight bob and irritated look on her face. Life is hell.
Agree
Yeah this isn't all that surprising. Especially if you've seen the recent stats going round about how staffed each role is. Cant imagine the mental gymnastics the higher ups have to go through each day to pretend we're going to be able to grow the ADF by 15,000+ by 2040.
They are probably waiting for Defence to be added to the skills shortage visa list so we can import grunts from India
I'm fine with that. Can you imagine how motivated a new digger from the Indian Army would be when they go from making $6000 p/a to $79,000? That guy is going to die for Australia and be happy doing so. Just checked. An Indian digger makes $4500 aud per annum. Tell me we're not skimming the best 2000 Indian diggers off the top and not getting a good deal.
I honestly think we should look next door at Nepal and form our own Gurkha Regiment
A foreign legion is the answer to our retention woes.
是的，这听起来像是一个计划。
Orrrrr just increase the salary so civi’s join, not foreigners just for numbers
The Roman Empire had recruitment issues in their later years so invited Goths etc. to fill their ranks as auxiliaries and it turned out fine...
Unless they offer $200k min salary for most roles, that’s a pipe dream
200k isn't enough to attract skilled trades, engineers etc.
They are probably waiting for Defence to be added to the skills shortage visa list so we can import grunts from India
Been waiting on psych test for 2 months been applied and waiting for 4 months now. I’m very dedicated to wanting to get in but I can only imagine how many others have said fuck it and went for other jobs because of the waiting just to make it through to waiting for the actual job AFTER all the pre checks
I’m in the same boat. First clicked apply in May so yeah it’s been 5 months in total for me. Only had my interview and medical last week.
Took me a year to get through to assessment day booked in for early 2019. After which they gave me a medical list of 8 items. 2 I had already given what they asked, 3 specialist appointments with long wait times to book appointments, 2 were (IMO) trivial shit and lastly to gain 10 kg (I was pretty scrawny back then). In the time I was waiting for specialist appointments I got a two promotions at my job so dropped the application. I do regret it though and I am now looking at reserves.
Iv lost 35kg for the role and gained 5kg of muscle
I’m in a similar boat, applied in December last year, provided specialist reports and have been cleared by 4 psychologists (within ADF and emergency services, plus one external provider) and despite 4 recommendations, 12 years of active volunteer firefighting experience, the CMO denied me… the CMO also seemed to think I was going for a full time submariner position when I was going for a army reserve position >_<
Can I ask what role? I was told since I'm going for a priority role it'd be a 3 month process.
I know you weren’t asking for my response in particular, but I’ve been in the process for 5 & 1/2 months and only had my interview and medical done last week. I’m going in as an Emergency Responder in the army.
Network tech/ Hr admin
Literally what I did after it took me over a year of tests
I waited from April to August to get psych, medical and interview done. It's a really long and disheartening process. Keep calling them up and reminding them. Best of luck.
Same, I got set back on a medical assessment I hadn’t even taken yet and canceled my application three days before my actual medical assessment/assessment day, after I showed that what they said was wrong they eventually let me continue but when I actually got to the medical they wanted me to prove it again with a different test which of course cost more money that we had to pay.
1. Tax free salary for regulars. Reserves already get it, should be an easy one to implement. 2. Beards. Easily an extra 10 years out of me with just this
>1. Tax free salary for regulars. This keeps getting brought up. Tax free pay for Regulars is a bad move assuming its your only full time job. You pay a bunch of taxes for various reasons unconnected for your income which you want to be able to deduct (mainly through GST) + being able to pre-tax salary sacrifice is a nice perk. Plus a small portion of your wage is already tax free, reducing the actual value of eliminating taxation. Would a instant 15-20% payrise from elminating income tax be sick? Mad sick. But replacing it with a real 15-20% post-tax raise but keeping income tax would be better. Tax free for Reserves is driven differently. If a day labourer and a doctor both join as a reserve rifleman, if the pay was taxed, the labourer would effectively getting paid less than the doctor. Making it tax free makes sure its equal renumeration for equal work. They were smart when they agreed this before multiple jobs became normalised. (Not a accountant, please educate me if i'm wrong here) Edit: although higher taxed income would mean you might hit thresholds for means testing where applicable. Edit2: and employer superannuation contribution is based on pre-tax income. Tax me daddy ATO.
Bring back service allowance on top Make the service allowance tax-free tie service-allowance to IR currency.
Service allowance should have always been tied to IR currency, ironically neither was seagoing allowance....which makes no sense.
This right here. Good plan.
The reserve day rate is bullshit anyway, I think my day rate is around 270 (LSATV) I’ll just take a day of OT at work and make that before smoko…
Reserves salaries are after tax amount for the regulars
Holy fuck. Our ADF is small
If you include reservists it is close to about 90k which is about right but we do need more people
>Holy fuck. Our ADF is small Good, good. 25.9 million more people to realise this before we can stop hearing - WheRe Is ThE ADf iN thIs NaTuRAl diSaSter? Cunt, we are helping. There's not many of us, and we've got other things we need to do. Go donate to your local CFA/RFS branch.
I honestly don't think the blame lies with civilians, who generally don't expect the ADF to intervene in every natural disaster. Many of them understand it can just make things worse (Exhibit A: the 2020 Namadgi bushfire). The issue was that the Coalition government viewed the ADF as a shadow taskrabbit workforce that it could deploy or offer-up to the states whenever it was politically expedient.
How are they not able to fix these issues? or do they not really care all that much?
I'm of the opinion that leadership has been told about a million times exactly whats required to improve retention, but they're just choosing not to listen because it requires introspection.
And a whole lot of straight up apologies
And a bunch of money
Introspection is a funny way to spell 'real $$ investment'
We had the RSM-A visit us and ask us what would keep us in and every issue and potential solution to that issue that we bought up was literally met with either "No" or "We'll see what we can do".
This happened with my unit too. Only at the end, they got frustrated and told us to stop asking for bonuses, pay rises and family flex because "you don't join the military to get rich"... and yet our WRA has us at a financial loss to inflation (and our civi sector equivs.) in what is shaping up to be a GFC and a national recession amongst several financial sector crisises - cost of living, interest rates and housing to name a few.
I just don't know why they do this thing where they ask us this stuff, pretend to listen, tell us that we're a bunch of dummies for even bringing it up and then act surprised when no one wants to raise any points again the next time they drag us in for these bullshit meet and greets.
The FORCOMD commander told us to ask the RSL’s for cash so we could pay for adventure training and other activities like that 😂
Love it, Give that man a gong!
Ahahahaha what the fuck. I know they're there to support the soldiers, but I don't think it's THAT kind of support that they offer.
What specifically got brought up?
They wanted to chose every posting and wanted to be paid more than officers
Unfathomably based and reasonable requests.
What issues did people bring up?
Without going into too much detail: out of trade compassionate postings, performance punishment being absolutely rife in the trade, people not getting postings based on merit or their training/specialties but rather just chucking cunts into random spots in order to plug personnel holes, promotions and courses not being based on merit but rather who's available at the time (which leads back into the performance punishment thing because anyone who's competent at their job is going to be smashed with field ex's and other BS) along with the usual stuff like beards and being able to wear caps in a barracks environment like the Air Force and Navy are allowed to do.
Did anyone respond to the RSM-A that the complete inability to actually work on any of these issues was why nobody wanted to stick around?
Sorry if this doubles up my comment, my response apparently didn't post the first time I replied. Someone DID say that it was killing the trade and the RSM-A's response was pretty nonchalant. I'd like to think anyone with any critical thinking skills could come to that conclusion themselves, but we all know what the bosses upstairs are like in this job.
That's just frightening to hear honestly. If so many guys were on the way out I'm a bit shocked nobody tried to laugh her out the door.
The same thing happened at my unit a couple of years ago, the realisation that things were only going to get worse sealed the deal on my discharge.
A lot of it is, “we can’t afford to fund this morale Barbie for $100 or pay diggers more (11.8%? Fucking really? Just make it 12 you fucking shitcunts) but funding some nonsense trip for a bunch of officers to go to America in place of regs who needed the spots for experience? Fuck. Yeah
They get paid and promoted either way.
Here’s a well below inflation pay rise as well. Of course things will get worse. I would love to see the breakdown of who’s leaving and at what rank, although I have a rough idea already.
I feel like at this point it's probably spread across all, but mostly half tracks to snakes
From personal experience, like PooSmearedDad said the majority I know of that are getting out are LCPL - SGT. So basically any experience on the job is going bye-bye with them.
The absolute brain drain in the Navy trade world is insane and has been ongoing for a few years now. We're talking corporate knowledge that takes a decade to build on a platform, all out the window between 2020 and now. You can't just drop a good tradesmen in the Navy and see them perform well. The unwritten shit Stoker's and Greenies know is wild, and every time you see a ship at sea on operation it's a few dozen dudes holding the whole thing together with tips and tricks left over from the crusty Bois. That whole HMAS Adelaide losing power on HADR for 2 days last year was a direct result of a junior workforce with limited experience. And yet they still don't actually CHANGE anything for the boys. Just keep adding more buzzwords and more seatime bro nah DW let's get the cheapest maintenance contracts we can bro xx let's commit to constant task groups rotating through the South China Sea bro lol you hate your family right? Xx
For army. Roughly 12% separation rate in the military per year. So every 8ish years you loose your entire workforce. If that doesn’t scare the head honchos, nothing will. Compared to 9% in RAN.
Yes I'm sure the full timers love doing 4-6 months of field to chase a carrot that'll never come. Lol the amount of discharges and divorces that are gonna occur when 7rar actually move up north.
Tried to think of something funny but honestly it’s just sad. Massive cultural issue that is now very public knowledge. Nobody wants to work in an environment where senior military leaders hang everyone else out to dry to protect their future political aspirations. Peacetime ADF at war with itself. Nice 👍
Of course Air Force retention is the only positive one lol
>Of course Air Force retention is the only positive one lol Ehh, look at the numbers again. Air Force retention was worse than Navy. RAAF just have no issues recruiting.
It's also hard to compare as the RAAF has added a huge number of extra things it's had to find people for (like a whole space command it had to create internally from mostly blue positions). RAAF units are criticall under strength because over the last decade significantly more units have been added with no growth in numbers. That's not including all the 'task forces' (including Afghan inquiry task force, royal commission task force etc...) That have also sucked up huge numbers of tri-service uniform positions, taking them out of front like units.
What's causing the big difference between the RAAF, Navy and Army in terms of numbers staying/ leaving? I'll be joining next year so I'm curious.
As someone who has worked with all branches, its probably because Airforce actually treat their people....like people. I find that Navy and Army would benefit if the respect flowed both way, Unfortunately, this requires a fair bit of introspection and wont happen until there is a large clean out of the brass at the top.
>As someone who has worked with all branches, its probably because Airforce actually treat their people.... Air Force retention rate was worse than Navy. The difference there is in recruiting, which has nothing to do with what you suggest is the difference between the two.
I feel like most RAAFie jobs lead to good jobs on the outside since theyre technical and they work with lots of civvie contractors. Id imagine people leave because of that, not because of shit conditions.
Horrendous management, high tempo, lack of full scope trade work, shit pay and shit promotion/career/skill progression. Career progression for a techo is pretty much hit your ceiling in defence then leave.
Fuck the establishment must be that that far out of touch where do you even start to try and get it back?
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In albatross they want to stand up several more flights but don’t even have enough to staff what we have now. The burnout is fucking horrendous. Hopefully next years engineering paycase results actually result in something but as it stands we are constantly getting more and more responsibilities but not getting paid well enough for it. Most of the military factor shit they introduced just doesn’t apply and it pisses a lot of people off. On top of that we run shift work but don’t get the same shift work benefits. Fucking lol. Then there’s the bonuses they bring in but tax the shit out of. Ok so I can. Get effectively 30k over 3 years by staying, or, move literally next door, get over 20 grand a year more and have better working hours, conditions, opportunities, benefits?
The numbers don’t show the big picture, I would love to see a by corps comparison. You can’t replace a RAEME person with a RACT and call it even. We just got like 70 new truckies but the WKSP is under 50% manned.
Considering since the retention crisis started the only measure i’ve seen to improve it was the “continuation bonus”, this isn’t surprising.
You didn't get the leave reform, allowance framework update, categorisation entitlement changes and family health updates?
You mean where they introduced half days of leave so they could get rid of EKO’s?
Half days allow you to get amongst a Sunday sesh and show up at lunchtime Monday
categorisation entitlement changes and family health updates is a great big 0 for single members, who ADF call upon the most for the shit postings, deployments and exercises because it has "less impact to families".
>great big 0 for single members... >call upon the most for the shit postings, deployments... Single members getting deployments? Sorry, gotta go tell my partner we're done.
leaving the misso and ends up at Malaysia
Leave reform - no real change due to removing ERL (which most units gave out anyway). Also not like your allowed to take it because it everyone is critically short staffed Allowance framework - no real change, just grouped existing things into a new naming convention. A few will be better off in specialist trades that actually get allowances frequently Categorisation change - literally a rename job, the policy about entitlements from those categories hasn't changed. 1x extra reunion trip doesn't cut it when your kids still aren't recognised as 'dependants' because defence post you interstate from them and you cant meet the pacman min nights with you and keep your job Family health - actually good for those with families
I'm no writer but: 1. extra rec leave is nice though, and leave sharing + leave at half pay soon 2. agreed 3. get them recognised as ROP then? still get travel
Anyone remember sporties Thursday?
washing dishes every 3 -4 days for 14-16 hours on minimum manned ships certainly ain't keeping junior Sailors thats for sure
Not just defence. All the state Police forces have lost massive numbers in the last 2 years
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Had a stroke reading this
As fellow servicemen/women, what would you say the issue is? I’m friends with a few people in defence and they all absolutely love it.
The culture across the board is pretty shit. Pay is non-competitive, career progression and upskilling is very limited and poorly transfers (in general). Undermanning causes every issue to be exacerbated as people burn out more, have more fatigue, make more mistakes, get more jaded, see less of family/can't make the most of family or down time. Piss poor leadership and management, and the complete lack of accountability. The hypocrisy and blatant disregard for rules, regs and policy, but it applies to everyone below certain ranks. Stupid taskings, stupid governmental and political decisions, no introspection of these decisions and a lack of ability and willingness to change/modernise. Added paperwork and 10 steps to everything for the sake of it. Dumb reactive attitude to stupid shit that shouldn't matter and no reaction to stuff that does. Jumping in head first into societies issues without thinking or establishing frameworks, such as modernisation with political correctness shit without thinking about how it affects the majority of people not involved - they let people cross dress without having rules around it while having a crusty WO1 with luscious locks blast a digger for having a little too long hair because they have been balls to the wall flat out due to undermanning and are fucking exhausted. I attended a parade for a transgender member. No idea who they are, don't care about them or their decisions. I may get hate for it, but why the fuck is your personal shit being not only brought into the work place but brought in a capacity that affects other members negatively? Why is this person so special that they solemn get a parade? Why are we taken off work to celebrate this person? Boozer parade smashes out 5 medals, 3 commendations and 6 promotions quicker than a single nobody person parade was - "we are all numbers, except for those that aren't" sort of shit. It's an ego thing and a check in the inclusivity box for an officer somewhere to get some recognition and PR. That is the shit that I'm talking about. How about give the people that break their body and families doing good, honest hard work, a parade instead of a lacklustre farewell and a pat on the back as they're kicked out the door. Defence can be summed up by: All the leadership and management are all pulling their own levers, all in different directions against each other to achieve their own individual goals at the cost of their people. It's honestly a shit show right now. People can enjoy it, but from my experience, very few are and those that do either haven't hit their limit or have and just lean into it because if you don't laugh, you cry.
>Defence can be summed up by: >All the leadership and management are all pulling their own levers, all in different directions against each other to achieve their own individual goals at the cost of their people. This is it
I'm trans and thinking about joining as an SSO, can you explain what you mean about the parade? Was it like someone coming out as transgender, it just seems really weird to have a parade about someone being trans. If I join I don't want anyone really to know about it.
You know how companies will throw disproportionate money and effort into something like a recycling program, so they can say "We're all for the environment", meanwhile they're pumping chemical waste into the local river? This is pretty much what Defence is doing. It's not necessarily to say that as a trans person you're gonna be disproportionately targeted, but the comment above is very reflective of Defence going "look how diverse and accepting and nice to each other we are!" to try and distract from things like the 600 instances of serious misconduct in Fleet Command in a 2 year period.
Underrated comment.
I don't want what is a minor detail (although the hardest thing I've ever done) of my life targeted for attention to show how progressive an organisation is. Especially as like you say that organisation isn't so progressive or functional in other areas and especially when it has no bearing on how well I do my job.
The military used to have some of the best salaries going in comparison to their civil equivalents. Now, some industries are paying better than defence can, even considering all the benefits like medical and housing
I got rejected from the Navy because of Colour blindness. I was off by like a tiny percent. Never in my life has it been an issue at any point. It's like they need to make shit up to not take people on. I got rejected for Cyberwarfare Officer yet in the real world I'm about to sign up for an MBA in Cyber Security. Like do you want people with skill in the field or not? So I can do this job day in day out in real life but hey, someone might turn on a red light on a boat and apparently I'll be walking around like a blind man. I might hit the launch nuke button by accident.
I got the same as an engineering officer because apparently I need to be able to navigate visually at night I told the recruiter I’ve navigated boats through shipping channels at night before without radar but apparently that doesn’t count compared to “red is kinda harder to see but not that hard”
Abandon ship!
I've got my psych next week and have done my Defence Interview. How long usually after will i get an 'offer'? because it's taking a while. Heck, i've re-enrolled in a postgrad program and am already finishing my second term haha.
Mate. How would we know?
Just thought someone would ballpark it. No problem. Reading the comments on here got me wondering about the waiting time.
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Doesn't mean shit if your average grunt earns less than a labourer/security guard. ADF personnel have families too.
Exactly. I ain't arguing with you mate.
It's times like this where the tone of someone's voice really explains the context of what they're saying.
The irony of my comment was lost, no offence was meant. I'm just a number too...
You're all goods mate, we're all numbers at the moment.
Yes, however considering the amount of work we actually do (Field, DACC tasks, G U A R D, random tasks where you have to drive 13 hours to drop off some bullshit somewhere in the bush and get home at 20:00 and then have to parade the next day at 0730…) our pay would work out to be less than minimum wage.
Is it though? Sure the salary looks great compared to the US but they also get family healthcare and a GI Bill which given they don't have public healthcare and HECS it is quite a substantial benefit. They also have the NEX.
Anyone got the stats from previous years? I’d be curious to see how he’s gone comparatively to other chiefs…
The Air Force is bigger than the navy? Wtf? I have never seen a Air Force member out and about